BPDFamily.com

My exUBPD started to tell me she had some "mental issues" 3 weeks into us dating. She also revealed she used to be addicted to drugs esp speed and cocaine.

I remember she had had a recent break up so I thought her mental issues were related to baggage.

But she had some intimacy issues and although she was great in bed, she could never reach orgasm. She told me she was anxious but also said it was " the mental issues". And she also tended to freak out when I got too close but was then needy.

One night in a bar I was about to ask her about these mental issues but she read my mind. She said "So, you know how I told u I have some mental issues? Well? Im bipolar and I like to eat bricks!"

I remember thinking... huh. Oh god. And eating bricks means dope.

She looked dead serious too. But then said "just kidding!"

After that though it was apparent her moods were out of control. She would either be hyper and manic, vulnerable and shy, sarcastic and angry or deeply sad. All in the space of 24 hours!

I'm aware that bipolar involves moods that tend to last longer. So I now think she's BPD.

Anyway I started to think her making that joke was her way of speaking "code" for having some issues and liking drugs. As I was aware she still smoked joints.

A month later, she was speaking code to me and being vague so I referred to her bipolar and eating bricks joke. At the time she didn't say anything.

But we ended up falling out and she avoided me like the plague. I then went overseas on vacation. And when I came back, she told me she misses me. I then asked her why she had avoided me and she lashed out and said "when did I avoid you? After you called me a bipolar junkie?"

I was stunned. What? She twisted it completely.

My questions are...

1. Why would someone likely with BPD joke about being bipolar and eating bricks? It's not a funny joke and it's almost accurate of her

2. Why would they twist it around to make it out that you called them this? Is it due to projection? She thinks she's bipolar so she jokes about it but later blames you for calling her that?

I would say she wasn't joking.   My pwBPD had zero ability to kid about herself.  She couldn't really see herself and often didn't know what she was or wasn't.

BPD is a shame based attachment disorder.   My EX could not, can't admit she made a mistake.   Its beyond her skill set.

As to turning it around, it was my experience that there is a lot of cognitive distortion and thought disorder in BPD.   The facts were often twisted to match her feelings.

Interesting...

thing is... she seems very aware of her issues. And will be open about them but then get super defensive the next minute.

Even recently after lashing out at me she said "you are not to blame, I am to blame due to my plethora of issues". 

But then she sent me an article 10 minutes later that was sending a message telling me not to call her crazy- as it's patronising! And I never called her crazy! I was only confused at her lash out.

So is it normal for them to be aware of their issues, but to also blame you for making them feel bad/ashamed?

So it's all part and parcel of projection and distortion?

She still won't agree I never called her bipolar and a junkie. I had even called her to try to clear this up but this made her rage!

I am starting to think that she suspects she is bipolar. Not BPD.

Once she told me that she is erratic and "oscillates between manic and mediocre".

She's also never been to a psych and I think she's ashamed of her drug history.

Could it be she joked about the things she knows or suspects she is? But is so ashamed that she then has to project it onto others (me) and turn it around to make it look like I said those things to her? To almost relieve herself of shame or play the victim? 

insight is often fleeting, and only palatable when the thoughts are theirs. If you voice the same opinion you are deemed judging and need to be denied and defended against.

What she suspects she is cannot be relied on, self diagnosis is twisted as much as any other view of reality.

She will be the victim and you can be either prosecutor (accusing her of being XYZ)or rescuer (validating her opinion of being XYZ) as fits the mood of the moment.

My guess is she was diagnosed bipolar.  Or at least someone of knowledge suspected that and told her.  And she could be bipolar, not BPD, or she could be both.  Or maybe she was diagnosed BPD, and is either confused or telling others "bipolar" because she may think they are one in the same, or because she thinks others won't understand.  My dBPDgf has been diagnosed at times with BOTH, but usually leaves out the BPD part maybe because it brings her shame.  She, and some of her doctors, tend to focus on the bipolar, because it is treatable with medicine and has less of a negative stigma.  One of my friends who is a psychologist told me that many psychs run away from BPD as they feel there is not much they can do.  My gut feeling is that she is not bipolar at all.  She hasn't responded to any medication, and doesn't really experience the manic periods.  The doctors are still treating her as bipolar, and tell her she has personality issues to work on before they can assess the affects of the medication.   

Is your friend on medication for bipolar?  If she undergoing any kind of treatment, she should not be drinking or doing any other drugs, otherwise no progress will be made.

Looking at what we need and our behaviors will help us understand other people better.

Do you need her to agree? Do you need to be right?

Diana82,  


Not to sound too technical but projection is a very specific term with a distinct meaning.  If she was accusing you of being bipolar or a drug addict, or accusing you of having mood swings or acting unpredictably that would be projecting.

Over on the leaving board is a great thread about the traits of BP as described by Margalis Fjelstad.   Here is a link.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=213463.msg12350535#msg12350535

I really appreciate Discovery taking the time to type all that and I won't repeat it here.  I suggest you take a look because it is the most succinct but brief description I have seen to date about what BP is and isn't.

People who suffer the traits of BP do have sudden emotional outbursts that seem random, and during the outburst, they believe the emotions of the moment are totally accurate and will last forever.  They have an intense belief in their own perceptions despite facts to the contrary and their interpretations of the events are the 'only' truth.  They will accuse others of saying or doing things they didn't say or do.

People with BPD see their emotions as caused by others, or by events outside themselves, and believe the only way to change how they feel is to get other people or events to change.

It is a mental illness.   They process information much differently than you or I do.   What they think and feel is  real to them.   If we attempt to "clear thing up with them" or set the record straight this feels very invalidating and they will react, usually poorly.   This is probably why suzn asked if you need her to agree with you or do you need to be right.   Its quite likely that she will never see things the same way you do,  she isn't wired that way.  (hope I am not putting words into your keyboard suzn)

No one here can diagnosis.   From what you describe, you are dealing with emotional, thought and behavioral instability.  

There are tools YOU can use to increase the likelihood of reasonable enjoyable conversations.   A couple of them are over on the right under the choosing a path box. ------>  

There is a couple of workshops here on validating and JADE'ing.  I would also recommend them highly.

waverider is correct, insight is often fleeting.   Its also pretty immature, pwBPD are emotionally frozen at a very young age.   Just as 5 year old can say they understand that yelling is bad, a 5 year old doesn't have the maturity to approach things differently,  a 5 year old will yell anyhow.

And for what it's worth, in my experience my pwBPD, didn't play the victim, she truly believed that life had wrought havoc down on her for no justifiable reason.  She didn't have the cognitive reasoning ability to see her role in her own life.

Hope this helps.

babyducks

Maxsterling >

I am not sure if she is on meds or if she's seen a psych.

The last time I saw her was in August. And back then she told me she has "mental issues" and that she has it on her list to see a psychologist.

But she is also a bit of self-confessed hippie and doesn't believe in medication. She had lactose intolerance and loved cheese- but refused to take any pills that would ease symptoms so she could enjoy the cheese in small quantities. Her mentality is "if you can't handle something, you shouldn't consume it or have anything to do with it. Why take medication to make yourself not reject something it naturally rejects?"

I suspect she still hasn't gone to a psych. She seems worse than she was back in August.

She never raged at me like this. And her thinking wasn't as distorted as it is now.

Suzn>

No, now I don't need her to agree. Because I've realised she had distorted thinking.

But for the past few weeks its been important for me to defend myself against an accusation like that.

I guess one thing I have been concerned about is the potential smearing. She never hesitated in trash talking her exes and others who had wronged her. And the gay community in my city is small. I was concerned that she'd go around telling people I labelled her bipolar and a junkie and was terribly verbally abusive. I would not put it past her.

So I have worried about my reputation. And still am a bit.

If she can twist that around- what else can she twist?

So there's two reasons why I sent her the nice message the other day after telling her to stop sending me self destructive messages.

1. I have recognised she is likely BPD and has distorted thinking and rapid mood swings. I do care about her still and want to be on friendly terms.

2. I am concerned about potential smearing. She doesn't shy away from trash talking people and has a fair bit to do in the gay community. She even told me her ex was sexually degrading and painted her as a monster. And her ex is quite active in the gay community and likely has no clue of the vile that is being said about her. It's one thing to talk negatively of an ex. It's another, to paint them as emotionally abusive :/

So I tried to end the argument by sending her a validating message to let her know I don't label her and sorry to hear others do... hope she's alright and then to send her a travel link to be nice.

Not sure if that will even do anything. She may even distort that message and twist it by saying I am patronising her and labelling her by not labelling her!

Hi babyducks

re "it is a mental illness.   They process information much differently than you or I do.   What they think and feel is  real to them.   If we attempt to "clear thing up with them" or set the record straight this feels very invalidating and they will react, usually poorly."

... this is now clear to me. But at the time I was astounded and naturally jumped on the defence to try to clear up something that was incorrect.

If I say something that offends someone that was unintentional... It's  easier to understand. All you can do is apologise and say you meant them no harm.

But in this case, she made a false accusation and was expecting recognition or an apology for something I never said. And would never say to her.

She also said that me clearing it up meant I was "constantly rehashing the bipolar thing"... which again wasn't true.

I am inclined to think that she feels crazy. She thinks she may be bipolar. So she then sees nastiness in comments when it's not there- confirming what she thinks about herself.  

I am understanding how to deal with the "you make me feel terrible" stuff ie validation. But we can't validate a false accusation?


The way I see it is, if I said nothing- she would likely tell everyone that  I call her bipolar and a junkie. And my silence would just be confirming it. But if I defend myself, I get it thrown back in my face that I am "rehashing" it and she's more upset.

Now she thinks I label her crazy like "everyone else". I tried to defend myself again but got met with rudeness. Now she's angry at me again.

So how do we deal with accusations of things we never said? How are we supposed to validate that? Or should we just say nothing?

It is what it is. Her accusations are her reality, her truth, which greatly differs from yours.  Accept her for what she is.  You can't really change her thinking by defending yourself... if anything it just makes things worst.  Personally I've been in this sort of situation and I learned that I know my truth and that's what's important.  I would leave the issue alone... let it be. Re-hashing it is a waste of time. It is what it is... .

BPDs do not think like normal people. 

Well I agreed to leave things be with her but then she kept apologising and saying "I know you didn't mean to attack me!" And "you just have a knack for finding my insecurities".

I think because of my personality, I've been unable to let her comments like these just go.

I could have stuck by my own word and let things be. But had to respond to her messages that I feel baited a response. She knows how to bait me because she knows I'm a fixer type.

I also feel as if she didn't want to leave things be. She wanted to continue to tell me how I make her feel. She wanted to send me that article and for me to feel sorry for her and say she isn't crazy.

But then she acted as if I was a nuisance when I responded.

So really... this dynamic isn't working even for friendship I think. Unless she can get help and I am very patient :/

I was thinking if she doesn't respond to my nice message... this means she's either done what I told her to (ie stopped blaming me for her hurt and focused it elsewhere) or she hates me.

Maybe she will calm down if I leave it until Xmas?

And if I've heard nothing... I could wish her a merry Xmas and say I hope the new year brings her peace and happiness that she deserves... .

... Just thinking aloud here. And I guess if she doesn't respond to that- she well and truly has painted me black!

Baby ducks> thanks for the link. This is definitely about thought instability.

This whole fight has been based on her misinterpretion of things I have said and her inability to see the facts.

She couldn't give me examples of when I had insulted her, when I had called her names etc. She just feels it so it's right in her head. And I must be attacked over it.

Sure I can let it go. But unless she gets help, how is a friendship possible with someone who frequently throws accusations at you? You are doomed if you defend yourself and doomed if you don't!

No you can't validate the invalid.   You can validate the feelings behind them.

Something like; "I can understand this conversation is upsetting.   It would be for anyone.   Truth be told, it is bothering me too.   What would you like to do? "

Yup.  We all are.

and of course the only people we can fix here are ourselves.

Its called radical acceptance and boundaries.   I suspect you've been on these boards long enough to read tons of people trying to establish boundaries about what behavior they will accept or not in their lives.

The mistake we make when defending ourselves is not just to allow our truth to be heard, but to go one step further and attempt  to convince them of our truth. That is when it goes to pot and becomes an impossible task.

As long as we know our truth, and are able to express it as "our" truth without projecting it, that is all that really matters. There is no need to attempt to "win" these conflicts.

I understand completely. Living in a small gay community is something you and I share. I was every bit as concerned about what my ex was telling other people too.

Here's what I learned. My fear was based around embarrassment. As if the world would come to an end if people believed the things she said. People are going to believe what they want to and we have no control over that. What we do have control over is how we react to it and how we let it affect us. Once I let go of what other people thought of me my embarrassment went away. "I" know the truth and that's what matters. 


Unfortunately, anything she wants to. You get to choose whether you want to allow what someone else says about you to eat you up emotionally or not. It hurts when someone lies about us, acknowledge the hurt and grieve it. I don't mean to make it sound like a simple "just do this." Being hurt and embarrassed about what people say is not simple. What makes it easier is to accept that we can't control what people think and we know what others think isn't always the truth.  *)

Your opinion of you is what matters. 

thanks Suzn. This does make sense...

You can't control what others think and I have to say, her stories about her ex were a little far fetched to me. So I'd assume others may not really believe her.

Thankfully, we don't have any mutual friends as that would be hard.

I now realise why she sent me the article about labelling women crazy though. She is fixated on the fact that I apparently called her a bipolar junkie. So in her mind, she thinks I view her as crazy.

And because I asked her to tell me specifically when I labelled her crazy- she knows she can't prove it, so she had to throw in that "you don't have to. Everyone who knows me already does".

I also think this whole avoidance thing was because she thought I called her bipolar and a junkie!

we seemed to have broken up over that! our whole fight is on her misguided perception that I have labelled her crazy!   

... I know I am on here saying she is BPD... but that's different to crazy.

I feel a little pathetic now...

having sent her the nice text reiterating that I don't label her, and 'sorry that others do' and hope she is ok... followed by a cool travel link.

I almost feel desperate 

Considering she hasn't replied either. My attempts to make peace have failed dismally and I have sent her 2 texts in a row now with no response. The first one telling her off and the second nice one.

In your experience, how long do BPDs tend to withdraw or paint you black? or if you set a boundary... do they need time to absorb it?

Usually she would have responded had I just sent the travel link thing. But I feel because I set the boundary and told her to take her s*it elsewhere, she is really offended. And because she's a passive aggressive type- she's using silent treatment on me.

Well Diana we all need time to allow things to sink in sometimes don't we? You set a boundary, she needs to respect it. She set a boundary (don't text me everyday) you have to respect that. It's how healthy relationships work. Give each other a little space for the dust to settle. Don't beat yourself up in the process. We're all human.

If you want to be better prepared for future communications it's a good idea to look over the communication skills we have here. The ones I mentioned in the suggested reading at the top of the Staying board? It's your choice, if you choose not to then most likely not much will change. It's not like they teach this stuff in school ya know?

Furthermore, those skills work for any relationship so if you two don't end up talking and working this out there will be a benefit for your future relationships. I'm pretty sure you'd rather not go through all this again with her or someone new. Right? Take some time and read up a little, it's worth it. You're worth it.

good advice... .  thank you. 

not sure if you saw my other thread about how she was riding her bike down my street recently approx 1.5 weeks ago?

This is another thing that is a bit concerning. I was actually a bit scared as to why she was doing this.

She lives on the other side of town and it would have taken her over an hour to ride to my street from her place. Unless she knows someone around my hood, it seems a bit of a coincidence she'd be riding down my residential street.  She flew right past me (I was parked) and looked at me.

Granted, she was riding quite fast past me but I am 97% sure it was her. A part of me is eager to know what she was doing. If we were still talking, I'd ask her if it was her.  But if she's stalking me, she'd never admit it!

I don't put much past her now though.  Is it common for a BPD to stalk you? even when they have kind of ended things with you or they are angry at you?

Let me ask you this. Are you afraid of her?

yes and no.

It seems a bit far fetched that she'd just breezily ride past my street and then see me and not wave or even text me after!

And why would she want to ride past my place anyway? she hasn't made any effort to see me for 3 months... so if she wants to see me... this is strange way of doing it.

But I have heard this is the way BPDs can be. They can stalk you... not necessarily in a malicious way. More because they want to bait a reaction out of you or even keep tabs.

It has freaked me out a bit... but then I don't actually think she is capable of physical harm. But I also don't feel I know her anymore.

I knew she had insecurities and was moody, but never knew she was capable of such rages. And I had no idea her moods were this shifty either and that she falsely accuses people of things. She seems to have lost the plot since I got back from Europe. 

She is a stranger to me now...

Ok with a yes and no answer... .

Yes, you're scared. What can you do to feel more secure? Are there actions you can take, in your home or just in your personal, physical vicinity that will help you feel safe? Let's talk about how to make you feel secure.

No, you are not afraid she can do any physical harm. All is well. It doesn't matter if she rode down your street on a bike. It's a free country. Right?

I'm just wondering for future... lets say she does reply to me and we become friends... .

If she says the following again ie "you called me a bipolar junkie" or " you make me feel terrible and like I'm always doing something wrong" or even sends me an article to not call women crazy- how should I respond?

I responded in shock... then defended myself but then asked for examples so I knew what she was referring to.

This obviously didn't work given she had no real examples and its all in her distorted reality!

So how would you guys respond to this stuff?

I was scared the other night while home alone to be honest. I had crazy thoughts of her appearing at my window! I know it sounds silly.

But I guess seeing her freaked me out. Yes it's a free world but its unlikely I would ride my bike down her small residential street an hour away during a fight with her. I know she lives on that street so I would avoid it if I was in the area

TOOLS: S.E.T. - Support, Empathy and Truth (https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict)

This workshop and video will help you with this one. Once your read over this and watch the video we can help you practice.  You start the dialog and we can jump in. :)


It doesn't sound silly. It's not unusual for our thoughts to run away with us when we are upset. How did you cope with this at the time? How did you fight off those thoughts?

well, I am quite rational... mostly!  So I snapped out of thinking that. Maybe I watch too many horror movies 

I'm just SO curious now as to why she was riding on my street. I am dying to ask her.

MayBEE.  :)


IF it was her, you likely already know the answer. What if it wasn't her? I mean, we can only guess what she would say then. You don't want to become a target for her. :)on't nibble on possible bait.  

true... I fear asking her will result in a crazy lash out again. She'll most likely scream at me via text saying something like "why would I be doing that? are you labelling me a STALKER now? so first you call me bipolar and a junkie, then say I'm crazy, then send me an awful message and now accuse me of stalking"

I can just picture it

I think I'm an anxious person. So that's why the silence is deafening for me.

I think I would be happy if she at least acknowledged my message.

How do you go about adjusting your tone when talking to a BPD?

I see this as a key challenge. Because I left my exUBPD a voice message (it was a bit noisy as I was at a restaurant) saying "Hey, just wanted to say I am sorry if I came across a bit direct when asking why you avoided me. I had no intention of upsetting you. And also wanted to clear up... I never called you a bipolar junkie. I don't go around saying these things to anyone. Anyway, hope you're well and have a good week... "

... she told me "thank you for the apology. I'll ignore the tone"

and I said what do you mean?  and she said "Your tone is the hardest thing I need to protect myself from. You work in the corporate world and I spend my day teaching small children. You come across very abrupt and business like. Your words and tone actually make me feel terrible. I don't need this".


I'm actually quite a shy and softly spoken person... so this was a huge surprise to hear this. And the reference to working in the corporate world was odd...  

I don't think I can adjust my 'tone' to be any softer than it is!

Diana after reading through just this thread, it sounds as though you have been and still are attempting to be perfect for this person. What do you think of your tone? Do you think it was kind? Was it just a normal tone? What do YOU think?

The key is to learn communication skills so you will be prepared for these types of conversations. SET

Support - I'm sorry you FEEL my tone is harsh.

Empathy - I can see how you would FEEL that way.

Truth. - I called to apologise, it's not my intent to be harsh.

Or something similar, in your own words. Just because she feels (feelings are not facts) that you are being harsh doesn't mean that's true. And you don't have to believe it's true. Why would you attempt to change something that's not true? Make sense?

Maybe you need to do more work on developing your own sense of independence here. Are you stagnating whilst waiting on someone who is unpredictable and out of your influence?

We all like our own messages validated/acknowledged. But pwBPD are not good at this, at least in a deep and meaningful way, so we have to work on not needing them to do so. Otherwise its never ending disappointment. Only we can change this.

Changing our interactions so that we are not let down, we are not disappointed, we are not hurt, is something we can and have to do

Suzn>  I think I still love her... that's the only reason why I am not going to hell with all this!  :'(

What do I think of my tone? ... .I know my tone was normal and there was nothing harsh about it. The thing is, I was apologising for something I never said anyway! and clearing up something. Perferctly normal. I also told her I was calling to touch base as I hadn't seen or chatted to her for ages.

I did say sorry she feels this way... but I also told her that I think she sees the 'nastiness in words when it's not there".  This seemed to make her flip again.

I think most people who live with a pwBPD get picked up on perceived tone, sometimes they are right, and sometimes they get it wrong. You are not going to resolve that. It is ok to say they must have misinterpreted you. Then just leave it at that. if that triggers them, so be it. You can't fix all their triggers.

I have been reading through several materials about how to deal with the silent treatment and splitting from a BPD.

A couple of people have said to carry on talking to them as if nothing is wrong and to also not necessarily expect a response.

With this in mind, I wanted to send her a Christmas message.     Do you think this is a good idea?  If she hasn't responded by around Christmas, that would have been a month of silence... the longest she has gone quiet on me.

Before she sent me that article and I got mad at her, we had mutually agreed to "let things be for a while" which was vague anyway.

So I'm thinking a pleasant Christmas message to her would be nice. But, I don't have her on Facebook anymore and she isn't responding to texts. Do you think dropping a car into her letterbox is full on?  and she may think I AM the stalker?