BPDFamily.com

So I have not posted on this board much because up until now, while things have been pretty hostile at times we managed to get the settlement and parenting issues resolved via collaborative law. We are LS until the end of May and then it will be a divorce. Well the ex has decided to have zero contact with me, like none what so ever. What little we had she insists on continuing to whittle away so we have nothing. We have a 3 1/2 year old daughter so that is why we have any contact at all. She has essentially choose to parallel parent simply by being so hostile and unwilling to negotiate, work with me or stick to the parenting plan. This pisses me off because to me it feels completely unnecessary and completely her issue of being unable to let whatever it is go. Well it all started after her good friends saw me out on a date and I am sure instantly texted her to tell her. Literally a day later things went from really good to totally nuts and have been there since, and that was early October.

So this past few days there have been some concerning things with my daughter. One of which is that my daughter while driving in my truck just started to tell me this situation that occurred at her mom's house or in mom's care. She said someone touched her and she didn't like it. I asked her to tell me more, she did. I asked her if she told her mom and she said yes. Beyond that I didn't ask anything else. I told her that if someone is touching her, hugging her or whatever and she doesn't like it she can tell them "NO" and if they don't listen to find her mom or me, or someone she does knows and tell them. She seemed to get that.

So as part of collaborative law we had/have a family/child advocate who helps us navigate how to best support our daughter and creating the best parenting plan etc for the child. We have emailed her about concerns before. So I emailed her with that concern and 2 others. All of them I stated I did not know what the actual situation was, I was not even claiming to guess. I told her what it sounded like to me from my experience knowing my daughter but that I wasn't making any assumptions and or accusing my ex of anything.Which I truly was not doing, nor was my intent. I simply said that in regards to I don't believe my daughter was randomly making this story up. It was not presented the way things are when she made them up.

So this evening my ex, myself, and both our attorneys got a scathing email that was essentially directed at me. It basically got all over me for breaking our agreements within a week (which just pissed me off because the ex has broken every agreement within hours so why pick on me for this one time I broke it, when she has ignored every other time the ex has broken them) so that was just upsetting. Yet the one on one interactions with this therapist have all been so positive and I know from talking to my attorney that this therapist does see what I am dealing with in regards to the ex. So I don't get the tone of the email. None the less then she went on to say that I was accusing my ex of emotional abuse and this touching thing, and that if I was going to make accusations like this I needed to be prepared to deal with it the right way. Also that I was not qualified or capable of evaluating or making assessments of my daughter and I needed to leave that to people who could. Yet I never did that, other than stating my personal experience with my daughter and stories she tells and that when she told me about the touching incident it didn't seem made up to me based upon my experiences... .but that I was not 100% sure. I even told her that the reason I was sharing with her was because I did not know.

She is a really well respected, highly trained and highly experienced child and family therapist in our area. Very sought after, not just anyone. So this is even more concerning. I mean maybe I read into it wrong, I don't have a clue. I know it makes me super nervous because my intent wasn't ever to open that box, at least not now. I do think that there are questionable things that happen with my ex but I am not in a position to address them yet.

I am scared because practically I am kind of unemployed, struggling financially and my ex is so good at being convincing and lying that going to court just really scares me. We have 50/50 custody and if I lost custody it would shatter my entire world.

I have a long list of documented actions my ex has done in the course of the last 15 months but in the past few months with limited contact the things have been less. Not because they happen less probably but because I have not seen them as much. I am afraid it would be looked at as past history as if she changed or something.

Anyway just feeling scared and nervous and not even sure what to think right now.

So the therapist sent you a scathing email?  Are you sure it came from her and not from your wife using a fake account?  That seems odd.  Can your attorneys respond to it in a polite and diplomatic way?  Try not to worry - maybe you read it as more hostile than it is. 

I would hope that this so-called top nothc therapsit could understand that sending such an e-mail globally would play unfairly into the hands of your soon to be ex.  From waht you've read this is a flagrant violation of what therapists are supposed to be doing - not taking sides, at least not openly.  Was the e-mail in fact sent from the therapist?  And to who?  You, ex, and attroneys? 

I think momtara's right, find out who that came from and was it the therapist.  If it was, I think you need to make a phone call - not an e-mail - to the therapist.  Before that, what were the ruels fo engagement, was there some sort of contract signed stating the expectations, how communications were to be made, etc.  I would ask open, direct questions of this therapist, what does she base her statements on.  Also, I would think that anything you state to the therapist is held in confidence.  This is generally the expectation I would expect in this type of scenario.  The therapsit is supposed to use what she is told, but insulate the parties from each other.  Clearly this is not what is being one here.

Maybe do a little research. Google this so-called expert sought after therapist.  Smells a little fishy the inequity in her statements advertised to a group.     

You are understandably upset and frustrated at the situation that suddenly swerved into shock territory.  Been there, experienced that.  We've all been there.  Was it directed at just you or at both parents?  Hopefully the issue is that the therapist just isn't aware of the entire scope of the family situation?

We know you won't flame out or sabotage yourself by responding incorrectly.  As long as you don't have a let's-all-get-along lawyer, it might be good to follow your lawyer's lead.  Probably best is for your lawyer be the one to inform the recipients that (1) this is a complex case in its early stages, (2) initial impressions may not be supported over time as more complete information and perceptive evaluations become available and (3) probably good too for this instance to inform the therapist that the other parent also has broken agreements multiple times so the issue ought to be not that it happened but whether there was reasonable cause to do so and whether either parent is showing a pattern of such behaviors.

Be sure to include in your overall divorce strategy how to address such instances.  Ignoring them may be just as bad as getting into email blast wars, strategize how and when to respond.  (Richard Warshak's introduction to Divorce Poison focuses on how the children are affected and makes a strong point that silence and ignoring missteps can backfire and is not The Strategy.)


I agree.  If the therapist was trying to set a boundary, it was a surprisingly stern and pointed one.  Most of the time professionals are very circumspect, boundaries and instructions are stated to both parents without much judgement of one or the other, especially early in the case.  So much is couched in passive phrases.  For example, a judge will never call someone a liar or the testimony a lie but instead will call the testimony, not the person, a passive "not credible".  Does the therapist know about the other instances where your ex did whatever she wished and ignored agreements?  Then there would be even more reason for any admonishment of you, however deserved or undeserved, to have been better directed as equal instructions to both of you.

Check with your lawyer before responding to the therapist.  The therapist is already on edge with you and may not take kindly to you the client correcting, I think you should determine if your lawyer should handle this promptly from one professional to another professional but I also feel strongly your lawyer needs to put some sort of response in writing to both the therapist and the other lawyer as well as copied to you so that the therapist's email is not left unchallenged or uncorrected.


Actually, if there was concern expressed about something which could turn out to be child abuse, it ought to have been held in strictest confidence until it is determined either to not be an issue or some investigation was done.  I'm not clear whether you told your ex about what your child said, but the T should have refrained from informing non-professionals until more was known.  In my case, my ex made many innumerable allegations against me of every sort of child abuse, when one failed, she'd try a slightly different one the next time.  I was NEVER informed of most of them - I only learned of them when I got copies of medical/therapy/police records - and of the few times I was contacted from out of the blue it was from CPS investigators asking me for my input and once by a hospital ER doctor asking what meds I might have given my child since ex was there alleging I had drugged my child.

"(1) this is a complex case in its early stages, (2) initial impressions may not be supported over time as more complete information and perceptive evaluations become available and"

Well put.

Also, did the T see your emails about the 'touching' situation, or just hear about them third hand? That's something to consider.

Here is the piece of the email which I was most upset with. The beginning of the email was a reminder of our agreements, her indirectly calling me out for breaking one of them although she uses neutral wording I saw an email from my ex to her, blaming me and using all kinds of "it is all his fault" language and this email directly responds to those issues. Hence why I take it as directed at me.

Momtara- I sent her the email about the touching so she got the story that I got from my daughter as closely as I could relay it. I was thinking about it though, and perhaps some of the big reaction was that I have always been very guarded with what I shared with her, partially b/c advice of attorney for a very valid reason that is too long to go into here. So the most extreme of things she really has never heard about so it could be that she has had a small picture of something that was really never an accurate portrayal of the situation and now for me to be bringing up things which are not new, except to her maybe, could be shocking for her. Needless to say I am adding the part of her email that was to me, the ex and BOTH attorneys. Maybe I am just too sensitive b/c I am scared but here it is.



It is even more dismaying to receive multiple emails from ":)ad (me)" re. D3 well being and what appear to be allegations of emotional abuse of D3 by "Mom (ex)".  Further, ":)ad" has raised the specter of unwanted touching occurring on "mom's" watch.

If you are going to raise these issues, then you better be prepared to handle them appropriately.  If a parent legitimately believes their child is being mistreated in some way, then they should pursue appropriate evaluations with mutually agreed upon providers and not try to interview or evaluate the child independently.  If the other parent is not in agreement re. evaluations, then I'll leave it to the attorneys to explain how family court would handle that.



Keeping in mind that she then ends it with a harsh reminder I need to mail her a payment, and follows a harsh lashing about breaking agreements.

I don't know how exactly to take the openign line, "it is even more dismaying," is that more dimsaying that you (dad) bring this up, or is it more dismaying that this stuff is happening and dad is expressing concern.  She mentions "raising the specter" as if this is something that exists in every relationship and you are amplifying this to her.

I'm questioning the intentions of this therapist.  I would love for her to intimate what exactly is the appropriate way of handling this becasue she certainly is not setting the example.  It almsot seems as if she is promoting or letting you know this needs to be made larger by involving more so-called providers (possibly colleagues of hers) and then potentially going to court to get resolution on that would be - because there isn't agreement between the two of you. Seems like an absolute given that there will consistently be a lack of agreement so she's saying that in these cases, all of them, you have to run the gamut she prescribes.  Meaning, spend more money.  Beyond that, she misconstrues having a conversation with your daughter as "interviewing or evaluating" her - almost like a BPed approach, guilting, overgeneralization, etc.

Maybe the remainder of this thread with all the content would give a different meaning, but the way this was handled, without confidence, has me very suspicious. 

I would not let this settle and have a very pointed conversation with your attorney that you should not have to settle for this type of hanlding with your case, or your daughter.         

This part of the therapist's note, I think, is poorly worded, and I agree that she wasn't doing her job - which is therapy - and her tone is somewhat one-sided.

But if you just look at what she's saying, it's probably right:  You're either in or you're out.  You don't have the luxury to be in-between.

Either you let it go - which means you don't think it's important, and you aren't going to validate what your daughter is saying - she's on her own.

Or you proceed according to how your lawyer advises you is the right, legal way to proceed.  I'm not sure what that is, and I think what you did so far is sensible - you mentioned it to the therapist, hoping for help.  But what your daughter told you may be evidence of a serious crime, and it probably needs to be handled accordingly.

Talk in depth with your attorney about your options and what is the best path for you and for your daughter, and then reply to the therapist's note very carefully.  My suggestion, would be, not to argue or deny what she is saying, but to state very clearly what happened - nothing more and nothing less.  "On Monday, December 2, while I was driving Daughter to school, she raised an issue with no prompting from me, and described a number of incidents, in which she was touched by Person in a way that she found uncomfortable.  I listened but did not prompt her in any way or reinforce anything she was saying.  She stated that Person has done such-and-such a number of times.  It is my view that we need to intervene in some way to protect Daughter and to make sure this does not impact her long-term.  I am open to the best way to help her, and that is why I mentioned it to you - to get your advice." or something like that - statements of fact.

You will need to be 100% consistent in what you say.  It may help you to write down - right now, today - exactly what you remember  - as much detail as possible - and give that to your lawyer, and then refer to it, so both you and your lawyer say exactly the same thing every time you talk about this subject.  If there are any discrepancies, they might be used to challenge your honesty.

At some point, when you understand the options, you will need to decide whether to pursue criminal charges, or take civil action, or take action through family court.  If the person your daughter mentioned is a man, he could be prosecuted even without evidence, but if it is a woman I doubt that would happen.

If it's possible to have your daughter spend extra time with the therapist, or with another professional you trust, that might be best, so there is a chance your daughter might tell that professional what happened, and the professional might then take some action to protect her.

One more thought, for whatever it's worth... .

It's now out in the open - your ex knows what your daughter said to you.  So the next time your daughter is alone with her mom, Mom will probably talk with her about it, and try to shame her into not saying it again, or even saying it's not true.

You may need to act fast, to get your daughter together with an unbiased professional, before she spends more time with her mom.

I recall I called CPS twice before I separated, reporting my then-spouse's ranting and raging.  The main question posed to me was, "Is she ranting and raging at your preschooler?"  I had to admit, "No, it's focused at me but she doesn't care if our child is right there."  I was told, "Call us back when anything is directed at the child."

So my CPS didn't care about exposure to poor behaviors, only if they were directed at the child.  Generally therapists are mandated reporters of suspected child abuse.  I'm somewhat surprised she didn't either ask you to bring in the child or refer you to CPS, children's services or a child therapist to determine professionally what if anything should be investigated or evaluated.

This is a serious rift in relationship with the therapist.  To deflect any more apparent miscommunications or brusque interaction, I feel your attorney should advise you how best to go forward.  I just worry that protests from you of "I was only trying to mention what I heard" could fall on ears that are now primed to hear things based on the prior seeming biased reaction.  Is the professional not acting as professionally and neutrally as the T ought to?  Is the professional seeing multiple issues and responded this way because of the other issues that have arisen?  Did the T lump your child's comments in as part of your observations of mother's actions toward your child?

Maybe a phone call or meeting between your lawyer and the therapist, to re-establish exactly what are the ground rules, and to mutually agree on the options open to you regarding this subject.

Your lawyer can also advise you about your options for taking the child to a different professional.  Where I live, you're supposed to get agreement from both parents, but I didn't do that - I got a reference from the school counselor, so I couldn't be accused of shopping for someone who would take my side, and took the kids to a counselor without consulting their mom, and the court was OK with that.  But your situation is different - it would be good to have a truly unbiased counselor talk with your daughter, but there may be problems if you do that right now - it might look like you're looking for a counselor who will take your side.

One key is how you find the counselor - not by calling around to find one you like, but by getting a referral from another professional, like the family doctor.  If the current therapist has violated her responsibilities in any way - for example, if she is legally obligated to report indications of abuse, and hasn't done that - then you might be justified in finding a new therapist.  But if the current therapist was appointed by the court, it could be a big mistake to go to war with her.

After talking with your attorney, you might consider something like this:

From:  ThisYoungDad

To:  Current therapist

cc:  Your lawyer, ex's lawyer

Thank you for your note of [Date].

To clarify one issue you mentioned, what I reported to you regarding what Daughter told me was a careful, literal description of what she said.  I have not made any accusations, only reported what Daughter said to me.  My intent was to seek your advice on the best way to proceed, and I am still open to that advice.  My goal is to protect Daughter and to get her the support she needs to minimize the impact of what she reported to me.  Please let me know the best way to do this.

Specifically, you mention "appropriate evaluations with mutually agreed upon providers" - can you please explain how that might work, and suggest some providers we could consider?

I have asked my attorney, Mr. Attorney, to be in touch with Ms. Ex's attorney, to work out how this can happen, and I will appreciate any guidance you can provide.

Thank you,

Dad

Ideally, this would be a conversation, not e-mail, but since she has put her note out to all these parties, it's probably best to respond in kind, and let your attorney reach out to the therapist by phone, to re-establish how things should go.

One more thing - just brainstorming, this is outside my experience - but if the shoe was on the other foot - if your daughter told someone that she had been touched inappropriately in your home - it's pretty likely that the other side would seek an immediate court order keeping her away from you and your home, and they might get it.  Courts often separate a child from her father, sometimes for months, while an investigation is done.

I'm not saying that's right, or that you should seek such a court order, only that if you think what your Daughter told you is probably true, it's an option worth considering.  If the adult involved was a man, the court might take it seriously enough to make a temporary change in residential custody until an investigation could be done.

One thought I just had - might it be a good idea to not contact the T again without talking to your L first and explaining your concerns?  Let the L guide you on how to deal with T so as not to set off this kind of thing again?

By the way, I can't think of much that would pi$$ me off more than my child coming to me, telling me they are being touched inappropriately, and asking for help, and when I approach the T for said help, being lambasted and then being basically accused of making false allegations.  I'd have my L respond that I intend to begin an investigation, and if necessary or warranted, have criminal charges filed against the perpetrator.  I'd also tell that T that she better take this seriously for my child's sake in the future instead of lambasting me for expressing concerns and trying to protect my child or I'll be heading off to the state board to file complaints against the T's license, as well as consider a malpractice suit, particularly if my child remains at risk and is further hurt because the T would rather attack me than do her job and protect my child.  But that's just me, I get hot-headed like that when it's my child's safety at stake.

this is what i was thinking. what kind of iron constitution must the T think you have, thisyoungdad, that you wouldn't respond to what your daughter told you the way you did? this is so far out of professional comportment (in my experience anyway) that i also wonder where the email came from.

Well... .I think you're both right to feel that way.  I would too.  But it may not be best to express those feelings very openly just yet.

I think talking with the lawyer first is a good idea.  Maybe you can talk openly with the lawyer, kind of.  But it's probably best to vent to family and close friends - including here! - and keep a very calm, thoughtful approach when dealing with the professionals.  Show a sharp contrast with the other party - let everybody involved know you are serious, fair, determined, and rational 100% of the time.

A lot of therapists who are involved in "therapeutic jurisprudence" are forensic psychologists. They aren't like normal therapists. Therapeutic jurisprudence is what they call the wave of GALs, PCs, co-parenting therapists, child custody evaluators, that showed up in family courts a few decades back. No other area of law has that industry. Just ours.

So your well-intentioned email just tripped one of her triggers. Her tone might not even be directed toward you per se. It could be that she is just summoning all her forensic psychologist training, and child molestation is the Big Stuff. And child molestation in toddlers is a big deal for forensic psychologists because developmentally, kids that age are highly susceptible to the power of suggestion. And making stuff up. Many psychologists prefer to observe kids and watch their reactions to things, rather than ask them directly.

Not making a judgment about her email one way or the other (although I think it's weird that she's sending this kind of information by email, which is hardly secure).

People who have a grudge against therapeutic jurisprudence (which is a booming industry, and $$$ lucrative) think that forensic therapists become petty tyrants because the power goes to their heads. That was my concern getting a PC, but she turned out to be very ethical. You can even look up where the therapist went to school. Lots of for-profit universities offer forensic psychology programs because you can be dumb as a stump to get into them, and then pay a tens of thousands to get the degree. Then, you have to go into a lucrative part of psychology to pay back the loans, which can be as much as $100K.

Treat this therapist like a poked bear, is my advice.

My experience - what LnL calls "forensic psychology" - we had a court-appointed Custody Evaluator, a Ph.D. psychologist who does this a lot.  I filed a motion asking the court to appoint a CE, and my wife's lawyer opposed it at first, but once we got past that, both lawyers talked and agreed on who would be good.

He turned out to be very professional and fair, and not too expensive - $5,000, plus $500 for each of us for psych evals.

I wasn't 100% happy with his report, but it was fair, and based on good information.  Good value for the cost.

But people are people, and everybody has a personality.  "Poked bear" might be the right way to look at this therapist, at least for now... .

Setting aside the tone of the email, that seems to be what the therapist is suggesting. If you are concerned about the well-being of D, then call in the custody evaluators. She is saying, "If this is real, then you better pony up."

Yeah, that's how I read it too.  She doesn't want any games - this is serious - are you in or are you out?

The question might be, exactly what does it mean to be "in";  that is, what exactly is the correct process she says you should follow?

She hints at that pretty clearly:  You and your ex agree to an investigation by a qualified professional, or if you don't agree, you fight it out in court.  Probably not a quick, cheap or fun process for anybody... .

All of the responses have been so helpful. So as of tonight my attorney is back in town. She got back this morning from a Thanksgiving break. She got this email and my email to her where I forwarded the emails in question (that the therapist is making comment of) and didn't hear a word from her on that today. I heard from her on something else, and talked to her assistant who said she had seen them at least. So my take from having this attorney for a year now is that if she felt it was that serious she would have called me right away. She has done that before. Also that it is possible she is handling it or trying to handle it between the professionals.

I think that the "poked bear" is a great way to look at it and exactly how I feel right now. Up until now I have felt mostly happy with the therapist, she is a very nice person who when we have met one on one has been extremely validating, telling me i am doing a wonderful job parenting in the midst of an extremely difficult situation, hinting that she knows what I am dealing with in the Ex... .my attorney told me she was hinting because she knows and just can't straight up say it. So until now I have mostly felt okay about her. I did at one point tell my attorney I felt she was biased against me and wanted a new one and my attorney thought I was over reacting at that point. Since then I am not sure because there has been two times i have been kinda treated this way although this by far the worst. Where as the ex has not had any public corrections. I have been told by my own therapist that this could well be simply that a public slap on the hand would send the ex into a huge tailspin versus me where I tend to at least ponder it and look at my own stuff. I thought that was interesting insight as to why I feel the ex "gets away" with stuff with this family therapist.

I do plan to discuss it with my attorney and let her handle it. I never responded to the email, and no one else has at least that I have seen. So that is also fascinating.

I never meant for anything to escalate to family court, my intent wasn't to accuse or allege anything and yet with the touching thing especially since my daughter is only 3 1/2 I do think she needs to have some kind of therapist evaluation or something. Which oddly now I remember the last time I saw our family therapist about a month ago she made a comment to me that my daughter was now old enough to see a therapist if she needed. I thought it kinda random at the time but maybe it wasn't as random as I think. There is only so much she can say after all at least to me personally. I am feeling better knowing my attorney wasn't on the phone at 0900 with me though.

Glad to hear things are settling down a bit... .

One thing I've learned from some of my past experiences... .is take any legal conversations out of email... .I have been frustrated when mediators or caregivers did the CYA move by cc'ing all only to get XBPDw stirred up... .even on very simple questions about homework.  A phone call where you start by saying that things are going well (son really seems to be enjoying your class)' a statement of concern and confusion "but this came up yesterday and I am not sure the best way to handle?" Then let them tell you ideas or solution.

This came hard for me because I am accostomed to a professional business environment where people are supposed to respond through email and be held accountable for doing their jobs.  Public schools and family courts don't work that way.

And during any legal entanglement I always check with my attorney first, unless it is a critical issue with kids.  It's too hard no to be pulled into the suck and take the bait when X attempts to push any buttons. 

You can always write the email and post here instead of sending right away.

I am meeting with my attorney tomorrow afternoon. Her assistant called on Thursday and said that my attorney wanted to make an appointment with me to discuss the situation and to see what we could do to calm it down a little with both the therapist and or the ex. Had she been that worried or upset she would have called me even later in the evening as she has for things before. So that tells me something I think.

I only have brought things up every throughout the process which have been very concerning about and that I really do mean business when I want to address them however possible. And my attorney knows that I mean business and that I would go to court if I had to. I don't want to do that of course though. She knows I mean business and would not bring up anything I wasn't prepared to see through because I have proven that. And of everything in the past almost year and a half now I have brought up a tiny fraction of the things, and left out some of the worst things the ex has done in front of our daughter. I am curious what tomorrow holds though.

I also am shocked about the CC thing because my attorney has been so clear about NOT responding to anything that way, even if it came to me that way. She has said it is not the appropriate way to handle thing so why in gods name does this therapist think it is? The scope of the concerns maybe? I am guessing my lawyer has talked to the therapist so we will see.

It will be interesting to see what the attorney has to say, about the best way to deal with this particular situation, and also about what things you should overlook and what things you should bring to the therapist's attention, or even to the police.

Usually, most of us overlook more and more - lower the bar again and again - and we need to learn not to do that anymore.  I think in general, when dealing with someone who has BPD or something similar, it's usually best, once you have taken the step to hire an attorney, to be in the habit of bringing everything important to the table, and shining the bright light of day on the stuff that impacts the kids.

So I met with my attorney on Monday and I was not prepared for what she told me. Basically she told me that my ex is about half a hair away from jumping from the collaborative process (which I believe she only ever did for her own self preservation anyway) to the litigation. That she has been talking to "people in power, not just her attorney" and she is a respected medical doctor so who that would be I don't know unless she talked to co workers who knew someone etc. It wasn't clear to me, nor was it clear to my attorney it seemed. She is also that close to filing a DV or restraining order against me. The reasons for this are 4, unrelated so far as I can see, situations over the course of 2 1/2 months.

She said that I made a fake online dating profile to stalk her, which stalking is her basis for the RO/DV order. That, get this, after she responded to my online dating profile that then I messaged her and that is why she is upset. I did see her on there, I did message her like a 3 maybe 4 line message and then I blocked her. So I am not sure why she thinks I created a fake profile, and besides that she said she reached out to me... which kind of in my mind blows the whole unwanted interaction line out of the water. Her other thing was that I gave her a birthday card 2 months ago, which I did but we had been on really good terms, and even talked that day. What she was upset about was not the card but the fact I dropped it off at her house. We both have had a policy of freely dropping things off at the other's house because we live super close and still have things of the other person's etc. Yet this time it was "uninvited" and therefore stalking her. Total B.S since she stopped by uninvited to my house 2x last week alone. The other 2 are equally as ridiculous and over the course of 2 months. 4 Separate incidents. All of which also occurred during times when she was initiating far more contact with me than I was with her, and I have emails to prove it. For everything she is saying I did, which minus the weird fake profile stalking thing I did do the things she said, not in the context she said them though, she has done the same if not more.

My attorney told me that even she thinks I am at least a little obsessed with my ex. She knows I am not obsessed with her in wanting to get back with her but I probably am in the sense that for almost a year I have been saying I am concerned about my daughter and I am upset about the crazy stuff my ex does in front of my daughter and no one has said a word. So maybe obsessed with getting someone to pay attention. So I am pissed, because I am worried about my daughter witnessing this behavior although now we have 100% NC which we almost had before but now is where we have to go and stay so I don't get arrested for something I didn't do. My attorney was very good about acknowledging that my ex is trying to provoke me in public into doing something so I can get arrested for DV and good on me for turning and walked away even though I could physically take the ex down. Those were the attorneys words to me, that I could physically take my ex but good job in walking away because even if she provoked or started it the public will only see me hitting back or defending myself most likely. So anyway though if I am obsessed with anything it is that everyone is ignoring her crappy behavior and zeroing in on me at every misstep I take instead as if my misstep was somehow bigger or more damaging than what she has done. My attorney told me, probably in a moment of frustration because it is very contrary to the tons of other conversations we have had, that maybe I have a personality issue since I am so obsessed with her and keep deflecting it all back to what my ex has done. I tried to tell her that I am just frustrated no one is paying attention and she kept saying she didn't give a "bleep" about what my ex was doing she cares about protecting me. Which she is a great attorney I am grateful for her yet at the same time what the heck is how I feel, how can no one not care what my ex is doing?

It is tricky for me because I pretty much have the best attorney in my city, which is a pretty good mid sized city. She is extremely well known, and respected and in ways feared even because she has been doing it for 30+ years and has had some high profile cases that made at least state wide news. She is just really good. So if we move from collaborative to litigation as she said "we have to find you another great lawyer" and that would be hard especially given the resource disparity with my ex being a M.D and me being a struggling single dad working in a field that doesn't always have steady work.

I guess I really didn't expect my ex to go this far even because she is the one who has done the crazy stuff in regards to my daughter. Now I have done my own stuff that only when taken out of context would it look bad, but I am sure she would do that I am already looking bad. This time last year she threatened something similar but didn't get so close to it as far as I am aware. This really has me pretty spooked. Do I back down for self preservation sake? My attorney said that if I didn't as she called it "play mother may I" with her and ask before I did or said or thought anything for now, that I risk losing it ALL as she said, and she meant ALL. She said she was putting me on a really short choke chain and if I don't abide by it god help me because probably no one can. Her literal words. I knew I was dealing with crazy. I have done the absolute best I can and yet it is never enough it feels like.

I wonder if it is time to get out my journal of documented situations and all her emails showing that while she is screaming and threatening me with a RO because she wanted NC, that while I did this, that or what not that she is now 2 months later or weeks later upset about that she was contacting me and initiating all kinds of contact, being friendly and as if all was fine. Does that even matter? Kinda just wrapping my head around it all, and circling my friend wagon again and feeling scared... .really scared.

Well first take a deep breath.  This is very stressful - it was for me when I went through it - and things may go OK or not so OK.  But in the end, if you keep your head, everything will work out fine.

You're wise to "circle your friend wagons" - get as much support from family and close friends as possible - people you know you can trust not to pass along anything you say.  That support will keep you sane.

First, about "NC" - no contact - this is definitely the right thing to do.  If there is any conflict between you - even verbal - even if it's 99% in your wife's head - even if it's 100% in your wife's head - you will be presumed guilty til proven innocent.  I was - I went to jail - so did a lot of other men here.  When a woman calls the police, or 911, and makes an accusation, you're going to jail, no matter what the evidence shows.  So the best way to prevent that is to never, ever be in the same place as her, and never ever have any direct contact with her - not phone or even e-mail without your attorney involved.  And above all, never be where she is, without a non-family adult third party present - not for one minute.

Let me repeat that for emphasis.  Do not be where she is - or where she might be - without a non-family adult third party present at every moment.  Do not go to her home.  Do not allow her in your home.  If she comes to your home, keep the doors locked and don't open them even a crack.  Don't meet her for coffee.  Don't meet her to talk about the case.  Don't talk with her on the phone - she can claim you threatened her.  Don't go to her house to pick up or drop off your daughter.

Talk with your lawyer about the best way to arrange pick-ups and drop-offs.  Maybe e-mail with your lawyer cc:ed.  Meet at a public place, like McDonalds, and have no contact with your ex - I don't remember how old your daughter is but if she can walk from one car to the other that would be best.  Do not say "Good morning" or anything else to your wife - no communication at all - only communicate with your daughter.  Make sure it's somewhere where there will be other people around - during business hours - or even at the police station.

If your wife tells the police you touched her or threatened her in any way, you're going to jail.  Even that isn't the end of the world - make sure not to talk to the police, except to tell them your name, without talking to a lawyer first.  Memorize your lawyer's phone number and call her, and she'll get you out of jail within 24 hours (or maybe longer if it's the weekend).  It's not the end of the world, but it's pretty unpleasant, and will add to your cost.  Much better to avoid it, and the best way to avoid it is to have no contact at all with your wife.

Don't have her on your Facebook page, or Twitter, or LinkedIn - just remove her right now and don't put her back on any social media, even if it's her idea.  If you can print out evidence that she initiated that contact, give it to your lawyer, in case it comes up.

None of the above has any relation to the divorce case, but if it goes wrong, you'll wish you had kept your distance, and it could spill over into the divorce case.

Consider counseling, if that would be helpful, so you can accept that this woman is mentally ill - I don't know if it's BPD or something else - doesn't matter.  The way she's acting is crazy and it's dangerous for you.  Thinking about "fixing" the relationship is not realistic and not sensible - it can't work til she gets a whole lot of help, like years of therapy, and that isn't going to happen.  Any attempt to re-start the relationship would be a huge mistake, and you would pay for it - not her.  If the thought ever crosses your mind that you might want to do that, you have to get help dealing with that thought - like thinking about suicide - it's not a healthy thought, and you need to get help with it before you act on it.  There is no shame in seeing a counselor - I did and my wife tried to use it against me, and it backfired, because the judge saw that I was reaching out for help, and that's a very healthy thing to do, and my wife had huge problems and wasn't accepting help - a very unhealthy approach.

Or if not a professional counselor, maybe an experienced member of the clergy, or a very wise friend or family member - someone you can talk with when you have unwise thoughts, to make sure you don't act on them.  Set that up now, so when you have a weak moment, you're prepared to handle it wisely, by talking with someone, not by having contact with your wife.

Now about the custody case... .

You say that your wife does crazy things in front of your daughter.  The key is to document that.  Nobody will take your word for it.  How to document it is the problem, and it may take time, or be very difficult, but focus on that.  Find out if it is legal to audio record or video record in your state.  But it may not be possible to do that without having contact with her.

Go back through e-mails and print any that show inappropriate behavior that might affect your daughter, or that show your wife is acting crazy.  Think of other ways to document it without having contact with her.

Consider taking your daughter to a qualified counselor, not a single time to get evidence, but on a continuing basis.  Let your daughter form a strong relationship with the counselor, and don't try to influence the counselor, except to tell her that you are concerned about what your wife might be saying to your daughter.  If your daughter tells the counselor anything, the counselor will know the right way to act;  for example, she may be obligated to report any time your daughter says she was harmed by anyone.  But don't interfere or tell your daughter what to say, just tell her this is someone she can talk with about anything, and let the process happen.

Strategize with your attorney about all the criteria for custody in your state, and what evidence can be brought into the process, to tilt it in your favor.  Work at finding that evidence.

But about your attorney, and "collaborative" vs. "litigation"... .

The collaborative approach will not be successful in your case.  It's going to be more and more of this baloney, and no matter what happens you will be blamed.  It's a great approach for 90% of cases, which aren't "high-conflict", but a horrible approach for the few that are "high-conflict".  If your attorney only knows one method - collaborative - then she is unfortunately not the right person for this case.

Start by learning about how high-conflict divorces really work... .

Get "Splitting" by William A. Eddy, and read it carefully.  Good information at his site too - www.highconflictinstitute.com.  Learn how the process really works, when the other party has BPD or something similar - it's not going to work the way your current attorney is trying to make it work, and in trying to force it to work that way, you're going to stay stuck in this very stressful situation.  You have to change it up, using very different methods.

Basically - I'm a layman, not an attorney, so this is just my way of understanding it, based on my own case, and many others I've followed here - you have to start by assuming that your case will go to trial - custody will be decided by the court.  Not because that will actually happen - it probably won't - but because if you assume that, and act accordingly, it will change the dynamic, and you will be able to resolve the case with a minimum of chaos.

Assume it will go to trial.  Learn how that process will work.  Get a trial date set - as soon as possible but probably several months away.  Go through the steps required by the court where you live - maybe it's required to have a mediation session first, and there probably is a "discovery" phase where both sides exchange relevant information (through the attorneys of course).

You can, and probably should, put forward a proposal, at some point, to settle out of court.  Make sure that proposal is what you believe is best for your daughter, not what you think the other side wants.  Your goal is not to get them to accept your proposal, though that would be nice.  They almost certainly will not accept your proposal, no matter what it is.  Your goal is to establish that you are trying to settle without trial, and to establish what you believe is the best settlement - what is best for your daughter, and why.

Work to gather evidence to support your proposal, if you go to trial.  The other side will know you are doing this, since the evidence has to be shared with them at some point.  Consider deposing your wife - having your lawyer ask her questions under oath.  This will uncover important information, especially if she is lying or twisting the truth.

In most cases, there is an out of court settlement shortly before the trial.  The other side will decide it doesn't want to go to trial, because they will see that you are building a strong case.  They won't agree to what you believe is OK til they see that.  At the last minute, your wife will get scared - she won't want to testify in court under oath - so she will tell her lawyer to settle, and you'll get an OK (not perfect) settlement.

But... .backing up a minute... .this will only work out well if you have an attorney who knows how to handle cases like yours.  Which means someone experienced in similar cases, and willing to do what is needed, not someone who is scared of litigation or unwilling to go to court if needed.  And not someone so expensive you can't afford this approach (which will certainly be more expensive than the "collaborative" approach).

Affording a good attorney might mean asking the court to make the other party pay some of your legal costs.  This happens all the time in my state - the party that has the higher income has to pay some of the other party's legal costs, so the case is fair.  Find out how to get that to happen, so you won't be at a disadvantage.

And find an attorney who has experience when the opposing party has BPD or something similar - high-conflict cases.  Ask directly:  "Have you had much experience in cases where the opposing party has a personality disorder and is making false accusations?"  She won't tell you specifics, because of her clients' confidentiality, but she should be able to tell you "war stories" - how she handled a case, what worked and didn't work, and what she learned from it.  Be very up-front about what is going on - "I thought a collaborative approach would be best and cheapest, but I've learned that it won't work with someone who has psychological problems, so I'm looking for an attorney who has experience in situations like this."  Not "My wife is crazy - everything is her fault - why doesn't anybody believe me?"

This is a more "offensive" approach.  You won't be making any false accusations, or trying to "win" at your wife's expense.  But you will be steering by the stars - deciding what outcome will be best for your daughter - whether that's 50/50 custody, or something else - and finding a lawyer and a strategy to achieve that outcome if possible.  Not being passive and reacting to your wife's actions.

In addition to deposing your wife, another key decision will be whether to file a motion for psych evals (for both parents) and/or a Custody Evaluation.  It's probably best to get objective psych evals, to get that key piece of information into the record.  This is a subject on its own - we can talk more about it - an important factor in my case and many others.  It won't happen in a "collaborative" process, and the other side will probably oppose it, so you have to be ready to make it happen, and to make use of the information when you have it.  If the psych evals show that your wife has a psychological disorder like BPD, there is a ton of information available which shows that your daughter will be at high risk (substance abuse and many other problems) if she is raised by someone with an untreated psych disorder.

And above all, have no contact with her, except with your lawyer's involvement - ever.  If you put yourself in a position where she can make an accusation, like DV, that will make your life worse, at least for a while, and it will definitely add cost and put you on the defensive again.

Start documenting everything. Communicate only by text or e-mail.

This is now business. Not personal. You don't even have to be in the same place for them to get a RO against you.

You can say " have a nice day". And they will say you threatened to kill them. Sadly, it's how the system is set up.

You will go through litigation. Put anything else out of your head.

In my state they allow APL. Which is alimony per lite. Meaning the higher earning spouse has to pay the other spouse for some legal costs. Up until the divorce. Then it stops.

i know this is easier said than done, but i want to say it too. you may have some feelings for your wife but it is important to accept what matt says there. i had to do it. it will change the way you approach the entire business if you embrace that she can't be expected to do anything we would consider decent or rational.

Wars in the past, more or less, were where one army marched out to meet the other army on a battle field.

Divorce in the past is always pictured as two parents presenting their cases in court.

Wars these days, more or less, have become sniper and IED attacks.  It's even hard to know who the combatants are anymore and there are no clear battle lines and no safe refuges.

Divorce these days is "anything goes" and "no holds barred", lies rarely get attention in court and then only phrased passively as "not credible".  Courts seem to studiously ignore demonstrated poor behavior patterns and insist more on polices and procedures than fairness and too often the children and their interests get lost in the process.  The courts expect both parents will lie in court, sometimes the courts have even claimed to be unable to know the 'truth' as justification of doing or not doing whatever.

Bill Eddy in Splitting and his other books describes those conned by the other's emotion-laced manipulations as negative advocate who are blinded by the compelling emotional claims despite them having only slivers of substance or fact, no real substance, no real fact.

Your challenge is to be careful in everything you do and say, documenting them even if it means recording quietly in case you need to prove you weren't the one misbehaving or lying.  Your lawyer's challenge is to keep redirecting all the professionals back to the facts and not be swayed by emotional claims that eventually turn out to be unsubstantiated.

I recall when, in response to my divorce filing, my ex filed charges of harassment.   She had no proof but my lawyer said that facts didn't apply, she could just claim being 'fearful' and could still get up to 5 years protection, as my lawyer explained, "just in case".  In that instance we decided to cautiously settle that matter but only on our terms: (1) there was NO admission of guilt and NO findings of guilt or facts (2) child was removed from that motion so it didn't interfere with my parenting, (3) it was limited to just a matter of months, (4) it was classified as a type of settlement that could not have its terms or expiration extended again and again.

You need a new attorney,NOW! I don't care how much "expertise" she has, when it gets to where you have to defend yourself against your own attorney, the line has been crossed. She's hired to represent you,not pass judgement,and certainly not to tell you that you need counseling. She's going to roll over in the courtroom and let you get run over with this kind of representation.

Yes -- this is a bit worrying, what marbleloser says about your current L. Anyone who understands BPD would never recommend collaborative divorce. For exactly the reason you just explained, needing to start all over with a new lawyer. It's just too hard to expect that the process will be reasonable. Your current L may have a good reputation for low-conflict divorces, but not know beans about high-conflict.

My first lawyer came highly recommended - very smart - poised - professional - confident.  He told me he had experience with BPD, but he didn't really, so he pushed toward a collaborative approach, and nothing got done - around in circles.

My friends here told me, "Make a change!", but I didn't, because I thought it would cost more, and I didn't want to take a step backward.  Finally I decided it wasn't working, and found someone with experience, and it worked much better.  We quit talking about "collaborative" approaches, and making the other side happy - nothing I did for 12 years "made the other side happy" - and went ahead with what works.  Filed a motion and got the trial date set.  Filed a motion and got a Custody Evaluator appointed, who administered objective psych evals.  Filed a motion and deposed my wife.  Then submitted evidence for trial, with copies to the other side - and they knew what would happen if we went to trial.

Settled less than 24 hours before trial was scheduled.  Pretty good outcome, and things have been mostly good since then - much less conflict and chaos.

I just wanted to chime in about a few things.

1) I'm not certain based on what's written in the post whether you L is passing judgement on you, attacking you, etc. or just warning you what the other side is doing and to protect yourself.  How is your L working to defend you from STBXw's twisting of facts?

2) Regarding therapy, a divorce from a pwBPD or other type of mental/emotional disorder is going to turn into an emotionally exhausting experience at best, if not down right traumatic.  Your L recommending you to get into counseling is potentially good advice.  My L flat told me she knew things were hard to deal with and that it was easier with help.  She recommended a T she's worked with before, and he turned out to be one of the best things that ever happened to me.

I totally understand being quasi-obsessed with trying to get others to see the dysfunction in a pwPD when dealing with this.  It's important for the future health of our kids.  And it's awful validating and relieving when others come through and say "wow thisyoungdad, you were right!".  We've all been through that.  However, the legal arena is not the arena in which to seek this. 

At this point, it's in your best interest to stop trying to get your STBXw to be normal.  She's not normal.  It's like trying to teach a fish to grill hamburgers.  Focus on yourself and your child.  Getting a good T can help you learn to let go.  This is all very, very hard to deal with, getting help with it all from a good T will help you get through this in a way that is best for YOU!

You're L is telling you that the potential is forming to paint you in a very unflattery manner.  Heed her warnings.  Talk to her about how to switch strategies, and prepare for nastiness.  If she has good thoughts, and you think you're in good hands, stay on with her.  If she doesn't, then you can find a new L.  You're giving your STBX quarter in a fight where she is giving you none.  If this keeps up, you're going to sabotage yourself.

I'm sorry this is all happening.  You can get through all this, and get through it while remaining strong.