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When another person says (1)----> "you make me feel good"... .Shouldn't they really be saying (2)----> "I feel good"... .Because I can't make them feel one way or the other? Statement 1 is not taking responsibility where statement 2 is being responsible for one's own feelings? Do I have that right?

Now here's statement (3)-----> "I feel good because of you". Is this the same as statement 1? This is where I get lost.

I say we feel good or bad depending on what we focus on.  You can feel good any time by focusing on as many great moments from your past as you want, and you can also feel bad by focusing on death, destruction, global warming, that time we were dumped, the time our borderline hit us in the face in a moment of rage, whatever.  It's all about focus.

Now if a pretty girl is looking at you with that gleam in her eye and smiling, we focus on that and it makes us feel good; this gorgeous girl is looking at me in a way that is very validating.

So yes, we are always responsible for our own feelings, but it is common to assign that responsibility to someone else.  And if someone knows that certain things will cause you to feel good and they keep doing them, then yes, the person makes you feel good.  The opposite is also true: once we're in a relationship for a while the other person knows how to "push our buttons", meaning they know what to do or say that will cause us to focus on something negative, and then feel bed.

So you're right: "I feel good because of you" is more accurate, or better yet, "I feel good because of what you said", or even more accurate, "when you said that, it caused me to focus on something pleasurable, and then I felt good".  Too cumbersome though, even though accurate; "you make me feel good" is just a common shortcut.

And also, it's not what happens or what is said, it's what we make it mean, what we choose to focus on.  Two people could see the same event or hear the same words and feel completely differently about it because of what they each make it mean and what parts they focus on.

Fun stuff!

Well, in theory nobody makes anybody feel a certain way.  In reality, people's actions do effect peoples emotions unless you are very very evolved in mindfulness.

Most folks, however, don't have a clue what they really feel and why... .your example - "I feel good because of you" - digging deeper, would look like "I feel loved because you remembered I liked cream and sugar in my coffee".  Emotion=specific action.

Not sure if this answers your question.

 ultimately I am responsible for my own feelings. I know this beyond a doubt. Is this not true for all humans? Isn't this the line we cross when we lose ourselves?

We are all responsible for managing our own feelings - yes.

Is this theoretical or is there some real life question here?

Trying to apply this to my real life. Talked about this with a counsellor. Can't really get my brain around it. I keep expecting everyone else to know this too.

can you help me understand what specifically you mean here?



This concept is pretty emotionally and spiritually mature, you know that right?

I like what you said about the shortcut ironman. And yes... SB I get it. The maturity part. I think that might be why I stumble with it... .I expect people to be mature enough to be responsible for their own feelings and not blame me for them. It's been bugging me.

What I mean by applying this to my real life is to live by this. It's hard when people shortcut and change the meaning. I can see that. I have to accept that not everybody is going to "get" this. I may be left holding garbage that doesn't belong to me.

I think if we have a solid set of core values, empowering identities and strong boundaries, what other people say is irrelevant, in that it won't affect us.  Of course the process of building relationships, intimate or otherwise, includes lowering our boundaries a little to let people in and expressing vulnerability, at which point what those people say to us matters, and then there's a need for continued open, honest communication as the relationships get stronger and closer.

I'm opting for simple lately: there are people who bring me up and people who bring me down.  Remove the ones who bring me down, and strengthen and build relationships with people who bring me up.  We're social animals after all, imperfect too, but that's OK, letting the right ones in makes all of life better.

H2H... Yes I agree... .However, not everyone has that level of maturity. What you spoke of with core values and identity... .I don't encounter that often. Sometimes I actually think someone is mature enough to be responsible for their own feelings and then they dump it squarely on me. I know I have no power over anyone. I'm not greatly argumentative. I'm certainly not passive either. When I'm asked or addressed I speak my mind clearly. I refrain from using confusing language. I try to be direct as possible. Sometimes I get the feeling that some people don't understand me when I speak with them. Maybe just improper use of language.

It is frustrating, but also freeing to just accept this and be compassionate to them without taking it on.

Knowing our own emotions and what motivates the anger or frustration can help us in acceptance of others.

nope, emotional maturity is rarely taught in homes or in schools.

Many people cannot clearly identify an emotion or root causes.  The boards themselves serve as a great example of this.  How often do we see someone bargaining with themselves regarding contact... .it isn't about contact it is about short-cutting the pain.  But everyone must be given their own space to process with compassion.  Supporting, validating, yet helping get some unstuck has been a great learning experience for me in detachment of other peoples journeys... .knowing when you can support versus knowing when to let go... .that is a very good lesson from these boards.


How are they routinely dumping on you if you have boundaries?  Could it be a boundary issue on your part to know yourself enough of when to stay out of the "dump" path?


Do you ask for feedback? 

You might be right, sometimes we humans don't understand correctly.  Another great lesson of these boards is me learning how to ask if I understand correctly - and there are many times, I don't... .that is ok, we are all human with different life experiences and a different frame of reference.

I am still kinda trying to understand the real life aspect that prompted this question versus the theory component.  Is there a specific incident that you talked over with your T that has you stuck?

You made me mad. You make me want to use drugs. You make me want to get drunk. You make me want to kill myself. You make me sick. ... .Umm... .No I don't

Specifically, who said this to you?

Her

By her, do you mean your person with BPD?

So, your authentic question is why did she put her feelings on you?

It's not about her and it hasn't been for quite a while. It something that came up in a session... .I know she is ill.

so why did you just quote her?

She isn't "my" anything. I dislike the possessive  

Because she is a good bad example

good luck figuring it out.

cheers!

I don't think I will figure it out. I think it's always going to baffle me. How we give power over one another with a simple word

Perfidy, the topic has piqued my interest but I'm pretty confused as to what exactly you are asking. Can you rephrase your question again and perhaps we can offer better insight?

The biggest reason I want to know more about this idea is that I am trying to establish healthier behaviors. If I can get this part I will know where you end and I begin. It has been very difficult for me to find where I am responsible and where I'm not. I have tried communicating this to others. The result hasn't been pretty. If I offended you SB I'm sorry.

GL... It's about something extremely sensitive. I feel like its the reason people get on the wrong side of each other. Who is responsible for whose feelings in a r/s. by taking personal inventory I believe that I am responsible for my feelings and no one else is or can be.

Nope, I am not offended - if I were, I would be sure to tell you.   I honestly had nothing else to add because I couldn't figure out what you were saying or where you were going.  Thus, letting it go to someone else.

The question... Are we responsible entirely for all of our own feelings? I think the answer should always be yes to that. I could be wrong. I don't know. It seems like in the past I have been held accountable for the feelings of others. Not just the previous BPD r/s. my marriage... She wanted to make me responsible for her sometimes too. More than blaming...

I did not marry the pwBPD by the way. I know it could be taken that way by what I wrote.

Her Perfidy, are you asking specifically about how you deal with people who say these kinds of things to you?

I have a friend who says she can be friends with difficult people because, in her words, she doesn't participate in their drama. She just disengages. I've seen it, she is not necessarily validating like recommended on the boards, she tells them she disagrees it's her fault, e.g. their deal is their deal, and then walks away for the moment. I'm not saying this is the best way for you to handle difficult people who blame you, but it is my friend's strategy and works for her.

I would definitely be upset if somebody close to me told me these things, I would definitely tell that person that it's not my intention for them to feel bad and that I'm sorry they feel that way over something I've done, I think there must be some reason why they feel that way, and ask them if they can specifically tell me what these reasons might be. That's just me though, maybe that won't work for everybody.

I agree that we should be responsible for managing our responses to our own feelings. I don't feel that we are necessarily in control of our feelings; they arise out of who we are, what is going on around us, and all the experiences we've had in the past. I do believe that we can reshape ourselves so we don't automatically have the same feelings in response to certain triggers, or we can at least reshape our thinking in response to those feelings so that we process the feelings and come to a healthier outcome.

For example, I know that I had a very invalidating father who was always critical of me, never said anything good to me and only ever criticized me, so I never felt good enough for him, never felt loved. It makes me very sensitive to criticism and rejection. So anytime I experience a similar interaction with other people, the same bad feelings come right back for me. I can feel bad and unworthy, but I have to process my feelings and not be a slave to them in order to live a healthier life in accordance to what I want to be and in line with what I value. For example, I value being kind and compassionate, so in general I resist telling a person that I perceive as hypercritical to f**k off.  lol  I also recognize that I can slow down and not react immediately, then examine the criticism against the facts and decide what I will do about it. This is what I want to do instead of telling that person, "you p*ss me off!"

Perfidy I will respectfully disagree? I put a question mark because I'm figuring out why--allow me to figure out why over the next few sentences  :) OK, well, ok actually I do feel like, yes, we are responsible for our own feelings ultimately. However also the people around us affect us emotionally as they should. This is by design. This is natural. Humans are social creatures and in fact, isolating a human is one of the worst forms of torture you can put someone through. This is why people in solitary confinement (prisons) can lose their minds. This is why Tom Hanks talks to a soccer ball in that movie where he is stranded alone on that island  :) Humans are naturally social beings. We are meant to interact with each other and it is natural for us to have an emotional effect on each other. So, I don't think we are entirely responsible for each emotional response we have from other people--however we are responsible for continuing to be emotionally involved with people if they make us unhealthy.

Let's say you meet someone and become friendly or romantically involved. Then this person is abusive to you, but also is fun and supportive of you at times. Our emotions are there to give us signals about the people we are interacting with. And it's up to us to listen to what our emotions are telling us about others so that we can be as healthy as possible. If you are hurt/angered/betrayed by someone then this is normal. And the fact that you experience these emotions, caused by someone else is normal. Yet if you stay around this type of negative energy and are unable to separate then the responsibility lies on you as a person to do so.

I can do mean things to others, and in this case it's up to me to recognize things from their point of view and to stop behaving this way. Likewise the opposite is true. If somebody is blaming you for things and after much self-thought you don't believe you are the source of their issues then it's important for you to tell them this.

These are just my thoughts in any case. Does this help?

I say it's about living you word with integrity.  If you commit to do something or go somewhere with someone, and then don't, you owe that person an apology because you didn't keep your word, but you are not responsible for how they feel about it when they get upset with you.  People pleasers like me screw that up all the time, take responsibility for other people's feelings, in fact put them in front of our own, and there is a line there, between caring about what people think and feel and taking responsibility for those feelings.

Now, if someone told me that I "make them want to use drugs" my first response would be "don't be a sniveling little btch."  Oops, sorry.  No, there is obviously something under that, that could be cleared up with open, honest communication, starting with "why do you say that" and expecting honest discourse.  In the massive dysfunction that was my borderline relationship that never would have happened mind you, but with other than mental patients, fortunately I could hear a comment like that today and just chock it up to immaturity, and if someone was really coming at me with that crap thinking it would have an impact, it would just make me view them as young and pathetic, and they would end up having less respect from me than they did before.

Guys I need to think about this more. I agree with you both about how others can affect us and vice versa. This is a tough idea for me. It's got so much abstract thought involved. I don't know if I'm really even able to grasp the idea fully. I was instructed by a counsellor that I alone am responsible for my thoughts,feelings,and behavior. I accept this partly. I know for a fact that I am accountable. I will have a consequence for my behavior. I prefer good consequence. Isolation... Right. I understand how that is bad. Interaction... Maybe that's the answer I'm looking for. We interact. Maybe that's it.

Like Seeking said, a specific example would be easier.  Existential discussions about where I end and you start are fun, but the theory can seem disconnected.  How 'bout a specific example Perfidy.

Here are some examples. These are a few things I have heard from pwBPD, and the ex wife. Others said "you're pissing me off" or you make me happy. You make me sad. Some times the statemts can be extreme, not always though.

It's tougher with women we're in an intimate relationship with, since men typically make it their number one project to make his woman happy.  Impossible, as we've discussed, but putting that gleam in her eye is what we live for when we're in love.  To me that mellows out as a relationship matures, when you become close friends who care about each other a great deal, but responsibilities are shared, compromises made, things negotiated.  Then the challenge becomes how to put some romance and spark back in the relationship.

Women are confusing enough for men, the feminine always seems chaotic to the masculine, but throw a serious mental illness in there too and all hell breaks loose.

My take on these--True meaning they are somewhat normal things to say or feel towards someone else. False meaning it sounds abnormal and the person saying needs to get a grip on themselves:

You made me mad. -- TRUE, you made her mad

You make me want to use drugs. -- FALSE, she's a drug addict

You make me want to get drunk. -- FALSE, she has alcohol issues

You make me want to kill myself. -- FALSE, she has issue-issues

You make me sick. -- TRUE, in the sense of "you are getting on my damn nerves". People can sometimes get on yo damn nerves, right?

you're pissing me off -- TRUE

you make me happy. -- TRUE**

You make me sad. -- TRUE**



**True meaning that your interactions can very well make someone happy or sad. But ultimately they are responsible for their happiness/sadness and who they share it with. I love sharing and telling the person I love that they make me happy! In this way I hope to reflect the good that I am getting from them and let them know that they are appreciated.

Well... I can say this has been interesting. No clear cut answer. I could go into greater detail about specific events. One of the things that I read about mental illness specifically psychotic behavior, was that a psychopath would try and make you kill yourself. I have never had these feelings before I was with the BPD. She would say that certain things... .Not just me... .Would want to make her kill herself. She didn't attempt suicide. She had other self destructive behavior... .Digging at her face for hours... .Meth... .She was dual diagnosed. She was extreme. I observed what I would consider psychosis at times but I'm not an expert. I didn't ever tell her I was suicidal. She would have taken satisfaction in that. If I had actually succeeded an attempt (no attempt, planning though. I'm over it) I'm sure that would have been a major feather in her hat. By her actions at the end I am certain she was trying to drive me to suicide. The interaction with her caused me to experience tremendous emotional pain. She was sadistic, calculating and cruel. This is another reason this topic is relevant to me. I feel like the interaction with her is what caused me to become suicidal. The pain was horrible for months... .I have never been that depressed in my life and I don't think I got there alone. Or did I? I'm alone now and I feel a lot better.

For clarity's sake, borderlines are not technically psychotic, although the cognitive distortion they experience to make sense of their world is in that direction.  Also, drugs like meth can produce temporary, drug-induced psychosis until they wear off.

My borderline used to drive into bad neighborhoods hoping someone would "rape and kill" her to "put her out of her misery".  She wasn't saying that for attention or to manipulate me, she meant it.

"She was sadistic, calculating and cruel."  Borderlines can be, and although they're just trying to meet their needs and cope, it can seem a whole lot more sinister than that.

Relationships among humans are difficult enough, as we all fumble towards ecstasy, and it can be difficult to determine where you stop and she starts in an intimate relationship.  But one with a borderline is impossible, and many a partner has been driven to suicide.  Time to stay out and heal.  Take care of you!

I hear that all the way

Perhaps you should ask your counselor to clarify this with you. What he meant and what you may be interpreting could be quite different.

From how I would take this statement it would be that I am responsible for myself - I am a bit unclear why you are worrying about whether someone else, especially someone you think is BPD has to live by this same reality. Everyone has the freedom to do or believe what they want.  BUT, The only thing we can control is us - that is it. 

The counsellor is a female. She is trained and certified in CBT and DBT. She has a bachelors? Not a phd. She and I did discuss this in depth. It started becoming very difficult for me to understand. I guess maybe I'm looking for absolutes in a world where there are none. Over thinking it. Maybe it's not as important as I thought and I wanted a reason to explain my own morbid thoughts or possibly share the reasoning with someone other than my self. She explained it to me as I stated at the beginning of this thread. That no one can control me but me. That I am entirely responsible for my own feelings. That the whole "you make me feel that way" thing is a myth. I know I had help with my feelings. I think it was a response to a stimulus. Hell... .I don't know... That's what I'm trying to figure out.

well one thing that has helped me Perfidy is starting to do the things that were really important to me and surrounding me by people that also like those things. for example, music is one of my passions. and once i immersed myself in this and started hanging around a lot of other musicians it was like coming home in a sense. not that you aren't doing this but it just came to mind. i'm feeling perhaps you are feeling misunderstood? and some of this comes from ourselves in the sense that we need to make small corrections as to how we understand the world works, but the other part comes from other people around us and if they are able to understand who and how we are.

i just read this quote and thought of you. sorry if it's off topic but maybe you will like it? usually when i make connections like this i just try to share it so hope you enjoy:



Friends fell away as I individuated on my soul’s

journey. As I shed one self-sense, I no longer

identified with the people attached to it. Old ways of

interacting seemed artificial, scripted, silly. Whereas

before it was fine to hang out and waste time, now

there was no time to lose. Now I had to protect my

sacred purpose from connections that undermined it.

Be prepared for the lonely times on the journey. It

can be very isolating to quest for true-path amid

the trumpets of modern life. Walking through

uncharted territory often means walking alone. This

is particularly true in the transition stages before

we find our consciousness soulpod. It’s like primary

school all over again—who will be my first REAL

friends?

--Jeff Brown

https://www.facebook.com/SOULSHAPING



I really enjoy a lot of the posts by Jeff Brown. I haven't read his books yet but plan on reading Soul Shaping one day but I just started a book called Middlesex so it will have to wait til after that  :)

sonofagun this guy is good!  :)



It is important to realize that it is possible to hold

the belief in someone’s highest possibilities while

simultaneously accepting that they are not at a stage

where a friendship is appropriate. Because growth-oriented

individuals tend to be empathic, they run

a particular risk of remaining close to people who

can drag them down. If two people cannot meet on

relatively equal footing, there are two options: the

relationship can end, or it can be organized around

the developmental stage of the least conscious

member. Give yourself permission to go where the

growth is. Some of us are meant to jump through

karmic hoops together, some of us aren’t…

--Jeff Brown

Yes he seems to have good things to say.

I think this is indeed interesting here. This is my approach.

If I go back to the feeling good example, I would word it like this: "When I am sitting here in the late afternoon sun with you on my side, I feel so happy." (You make me happy.)

There is a situation and there is an emotion. In the description of the situation, there is another person included. My emotion is what I am doing. Someone else could easily feel different. "When I am sitting here in the late afternoon sun with you on my side, I feel so anxious that this moment will never come back." (You make me anxious.)

There is a stimulus for my emotions, sitting with darling in the afternoon sun. The emotion is mine.

I agree with you, perfidy, we hear a lot this sentences: You make me feel... . or This makes me feel. And I have to admit, perhaps I am not telling it everybody, I am thinking these things too. So my approach is first of all, I try to get this clear for myself. Which means for me: Learning to go in description mode (Stimulus) and awareness of my emotion.

Surnia, happy new year and thank you for your reply to this. It really does confuse me. I can see that the semantics is a problem. Using language to describe feelings is a monumental task. Fully understanding this concept has alluded me and the replays here have helped me come to a little better understanding of this idea of another person being able to make me feel one way or the other. You made me feel better... . Syntax error... . Buffering wheel... . Reboot.

This much power is scary. ( I give )YOU (the power to) MAKE ME MAD

I think we can be better with wording emotions with practice. Its possible, we are just not used to it.

This is one of my goals for the next year: Being aware of my emotions.



Yes, and YES!  |iiii