BPDFamily.com

It is with a great deal of sadness that I am posting on here again.  Normally I post on the Staying Board, but my husband has gotten into a nasty habit of breaking down doors when he does like the 'house rules'.  Things like 'no violent behavior' and 'no swearing' and 'no conflict in front of our 2 yr old'.

This morning I gave him 3 options:

1.  Get help with me involved in the process.

2.  Get out in a finite period of time.

3.  I will get his father and brother involved to force him to take some action.

We're in Ontario.  My husband keeps telling me that I have to WRITE HIM A CHECK AND HE'S GONE.  I have calmly explained that it doesn't work that way.  He says that he cannot leave the house because he owns firearms and you cannot own firearms in an apartment in Ontario and he therefore cannot leave the house.  I must write him a check so that he can buy his own house.  He's clearly totally disconnected with reality.

I could file for a motion for exclusion possession of the house, but that seems pretty harsh.  Then again separate times call for desperate measures.

I have been firm on boundaries over the last 6 months, I have been honest about the consequences if he chose not to take action.  I am now ready.  I have spoken to a lawyer in the past and have a clear idea of what I need to do.

I hate absolutely every moment of this but its time.

Sigh. :'(  You gotta do what you gotta do.  Keep up the boundaries.  Be prepared with Plans A, B, C, etc in case there's a huge extinction burst where he tries to intimidate you or force you to relent and appease.  Keep the emergency and police numbers handy.

He can temporarily leave the firearms behind (hmm, on second thought, not good especially over a long period of time since he then could feel he has a right to enter whenever he feels the urge and claim them).  I think the realistic options are to let his relatives take them or even consult with the police and see if they'll hold them in safekeeping.

Be safe, or as safe as you can be.  Be aware.  Beware.  Keep in touch with us, as well as your local supporters.

If the police do get involved then clearly you need to proceed with a protection order and even possession.  With a protection order he would be forced to surrender that sort of weaponry.  Sadly, with this disorder it's very likely you can't do things halfway.

It is a great deal of sadness when you finally decide to walk away. I was scared when I left, and didn't let myself feel the sadness until it hit me like a brick one day. It does get better, allibaba, but it's painful along the way and it goes slowly, step by step. People here are wonderful and really care, which made a big difference for me. Also, one thing I discovered going through a divorce with a pwBPD: you learn some amazing problem-solving skills. Lots of us can help you think through options when you think there is only choice A and nothing else.

I wish I had found the site and learned some of the tools on the Staying board before I divorced. Those skills will go a long way for you in the weeks, months, and unfortunately -- years ahead.

This is a time to have strong boundaries and to be assertive, to protect your interests and do what's best for your son. What I discovered is that BPD sufferers can create a lot of conflict in the legal system (which can be expensive) but their disorder makes them poor strategists and weak opponents. Unfortunately, lawyers will gladly work with weak opponents. Meaning, your battle may largely become a financial one.

As much as you can, treat the end of your marriage as the termination of a business contract. Save the emotional stuff for here and your therapist so you can move forward with your life -- he is likely going to dysregulate once he starts getting court documents and messages from lawyers. It happens, even for nons. It's an emotional process even for people who don't have BPD.

Anyway, just wanted give you a big   on the Family law board.

LnL

Ha ha clearly I am stressed because there are a lot of mistypes in my post. 

Hopefully you all got my point!

Also in Ontario, you have to be living separately for at least 1 yr before you can file for divorce.  You can file immediately if there is abuse in the marriage (obviously there is)... .but I'm in no hurry.  Really I don't want this, but its the only way.

You know I have been following your journey with a lot of hope.  I think you gave it every chance you could, and I know you love him.  And it looks like you are still trying.  That's good - I don't want you to look back with regrets.

You two do have a son.  And firearms in the house.  And I think he threatens your dogs (or that could be someone else).  It is hard to live under those conditions.

My first concern is custody.  My husband told me that if we got divorced, he'd rarely see the kids and may have to move far away where it's cheaper.  But when I filed, he filed to get primary custody!  It was a legal move, but I spent months sweating it out, and even when we agreed in mediation for me to have most of the time, he kept threatening to take me to court to say I was withholding our kids.  Also, I had to worry about him being cruel to them anytime something in the divorce 'triggered' him.  So... .if he is willing to leave and not bother you, that's great, but don't get complacent - document things, tape record, etc.  Don't look so overeager to have your son in front of him, but also be smart and strategic about responding when he speaks of custody and visitation issues. 

Good luck dealing with all of this.  Maybe this moment will pass.  Haven't followed your story in the last 2 weeks because I got busy with some things, but I wi ll keep up to date. 

A year of legal separation is also how it works where I live.

The actual filing of the divorce is just paper, it's not going to impact you much. The real stuff actually starts when you file for legal separation -- you'll do a temporary order for financial and custody. Temporary is code word for "permanent." That's when you begin to create a legal record for what the status quo is. Once you do that, the court tends to stick very conservatively to it, unless there is a big upset later down the line, like a substantive chance in circumstances.

Aim high so you can negotiate down to what's reasonable. He'll do the same.

Good feedback from everyone.  I hope it's helpful.

One thing that causes me a lot of concern is the violence.  Maybe it's only against doors so far, but damaging property sometimes leads to worse stuff, and of course you have a small child with you.  It might be best to first figure out how to end any risk of violence, and then go from there.  It may be hard to make good decisions under the stress of living with someone who acts like that.

I think sometimes when we're with someone who is violent, or damages property, or makes threats, we kind of get used to it, and that's something to be very aware of and to deal with as soon as possible.  Damaging property, in your home, with a small child around, is not OK or normal - don't let yourself believe that it's just how men are or that he can't help it - it's not OK and it could be a danger sign for worse stuff to come.  Figure out the right boundaries for you - stuff like "No violent behavior" is a very good start - and if you can put that into the form of, "If you do X I will do Y" - "If you do any violent act I will call the police" for example - that will take back some control of the situation.  It won't fix him - someone who would break a door probably has some serious problems you can't fix for him - but it may lead to a path to peace for you and your child.

Best wishes... .

Good post, Matt.

Good point! Allibaba, I think your ex might be violent in the same way mine was. If I remember correctly, he has not hit you with his fists? Some people call the kind of abuse I lived with "environmental abuse" because they use objects to hurt you instead of directly using fists. For some reason, I found it easier to tolerate that kind of abuse. My ex would throw things at me, lock me out of the house, slam the door in my face, break things. He once picked up my dog, who was trembling and trying to get close to me during a fight, and threw her against a wall.  :'(

If you have your ex removed from the house, make sure you have a good safety plan about what you'll do if he returns to the house. Change the locks. It's not fun planning for this stuff, but it's important you do it just in case. The legal process presses on vulnerabilities that can be challenging for us, much less for pwBPD. Those legal documents that come through the mail can be very triggering.

when i got the letter from my w's lawyer announcing that she had been retained my hands were shaking.

I started to feel sick to my stomach whenever I went to pick up my mail. When I first read the counter claim (what N/BPDx wrote after I filed for divorce), I felt like someone kicked me in the gut.

So that feeling times a thousand for people with BPD.

  Sorry to see you over here... .and don't have much to say; I count myself lucky not to know about the legal stuff.

I do agree that he is likely to react badly upon getting legal papers, whether immediately or soon later... .when you decide it is time for him to go, safety suggests doing it completely, including changing locks and whatever other legal approaches.

And don't leave the guns in the house--the police or a safe deposit box at a bank or anything else sounds like a better choice. In fact, keeping him from having access to them immediately sounds prudent--Just saw some statistics about how prevalent suicide by gun is here in the US.

Hang in there--this will be a long tough road, whether your H keeps going this direction or turns around.

 GK

you think? i served about a month ago, they accepted, got the verified answer, and not a peep from her, at least to me.

well pwBPD are individuals too. and i wasn't there when she was given the news, so i wouldn't know.

Fortunately or unfortunately we are on 'the other side' of physical violence in our house.  It started subtly in 2010 and culminated in 2012 with one incident in 2013 where I experienced a brutal attack.  A little thing here... .a little thing there at first.

A couple bruises here... .a couple of bruises there.  I still have a bruise on my leg from where he threw something at me in March 2012 (yeah).  I put an absolutely stop to threats and anything physical towards me last Spring and we had one incident after that when I called the police on him. 

I actually spilled almost every detail of the last 3 years to a dear friend over the last 2 weeks.  The response was:  "My dear Alli, what do we have to do to make sure that you do not become a statistic."  And I was succinctly told that "having 9-1-1 on speed dial does not constitute an acceptable safety plan."  Huh. 

I spoke to the lawyer on Friday and she has suggested that I attempt to get him out of his own will over the holidays.  He's calmly and rationally explained that that is his choice... .he chooses divorce.  He does not want to get help.  Though there were several urgent voice mails from our doctors office stating that they have gotten him the appt with the specialist that he requested urgently.  This is likely the psychiatrist... .because all the details of specialist appts are normally left on the voicemail.  He's asked for them to not tell me what the appt is for. 

Being that this isn't my first rodeo - I have dug my heels in... .I have given my husband choice after choice over the last year to follow his own path to recovery.  No matter what mood he is in, I can speak my truth to him now.  I stopped enabling him back in the spring.  He's chosen where he is at now and at least for the last 4 days I am surprisingly at peace with it.  Not flippant 'I have to escape peace'... .like understanding from the bottom of soul that I have 'done everything possible' for him true peace.   

I'm in my early 30's and I have been in this relationship for 10 years.  I am a better person for what I have been through and I wouldn't trade this experience for anything.  Twisted though that sounds I had lessons to learn and I have stared every single one of them in the face and learned them... .the prize is that I am no longer afraid.

It is my birthday today... .and one year ago he threatened true physical violence against me on my birthday.  He kicked me out of the house in the worst snow storm of the year and wouldn't let me take our infant son with me.  I was absolutely terrified.  I remember that horrible horrible feeling in the gut of my stomach... .1 year later I am a peace.  I am so grateful.

He tried to tell me today that everything was going to be ok and that we would work things through and I told him that if he wanted to be part of our family he would have to move out and get help.  He proceeded to explain to me that all he needs is a job and that my lack of emotional support is the reason that he can't get it. 

I have a meeting again with the lawyer on the 7th.  He is staying downstairs for the time being.  If he so much as lays a single solitary finger on anything in this house or ever utters the tiniest of threats - I'll have him arrested.  I have well well well documented evidence against him.

Peace and happy holidays every one.       

One thing that is really giving me strength is several close friends telling me that this isn't about me anymore - its about our son and removing him from this cycle.

Everytime I hear the song by A Great Big World & Christina Aguilera "Say Something" I am just reduced to complete sadness... .and I mope and my friends kick my @ss back into submission.  So here's to good friends... . 

A friend told me today:

Write down what you want in the next year.

Put it in an envelope and open it next year on my birthday.

Great advise.

So it's your fault he's the way he is?   Of course you already know that's not true, this is pure blaming and blame-shifting, typical projection and/or transference.

Generally the risk of DV is reduced if you have more distance between you and more time apart.

I have decided that I will pursue 100% custody of our son with the caveat that I WANT my husband to be part of his life... .but considering my husband's history of violence, I want maintain the option to pull the plug if I have to and I don't want to go back to court to do it.

I have a huge amount of evidence against my husband.  Photos, recordings, witnesses... .his own family members even... .people who love him... .I have called the police on him twice.  I told my husband this morning, I CAN LITERALLY SINK HIM and will go that route if I have to, but that for all of our sakes I would prefer something peaceful.  I will be fair but if his little toe so much as crosses the line (either with his behavior in the house or any accusations in court), I will unleash literal hell on his life and he will literally LOSE EVERYTHING.  His choice.

I'm not very nice.  HUH.  

Some things to consider:

* Find out how the court handles supervised visitation.  It's fairly common in these situations - the parent and child meet at the center, and the parent pays for someone to hang out with them, so he isn't alone with the child.  That usually is for some period, like six months or a year, while the parent proves he has his act together.

* Consider filing a motion for psych evals - that's what I did.  Both parents is best so it's not a presumption of anything, though your motive may be to get his results in front of the court.  Don't say anything that sounds like a presumption, except "There have been behavior problems as shown by Exhibits A through D." - don't say "I know he has BPD and I want to prove it!" - just a brief indication (with evidence) that there have been problems.  Don't say anything against taking an evaluation yourself.  Make sure the psych evals will be done by a psychologist - not a lawyer! - and make sure they will be based on objective testing like the MMPI-2, not just interviews - someone with a personality disorder can sometimes fool even a professional.

* You won't get a court to say, "You decide how much time Father will spend with Child - no need to come back to court."  Never happens that way.  But you might get the court to rule, "Father has psych issues as shown in Dr. Psychologist's report.  He will get therapy as recommended in the report.  Then after one year he can file a motion to reconsider custody."  If Father doesn't follow that order he probably won't get more time with Child, but if he seems to have his act together the court is likely to give him more time, and you probably won't want to fight it too hard, unless you have some solid evidence from that one-year period (not from before the court's ruling).

* Double-check to make sure your attorney has experience with similar cases - she should be able to tell you "war stories" that show she does.  Now would be the right time to make a change if she doesn't have the right experience.

* Make sure your attorney understands and accepts your objectives.  It's her job to help you achieve them.  If she seems to have a different agenda, make a change.

* Make a formal, written offer to settle, putting forth what you believe is best for the child, and why.  It should go from your attorney to the other party's attorney.  Do not discuss it with him without your attorney present.  Make it clear that it is valid for a specific time - could be two weeks, for example - and that you will be glad to have a counter-proposal from him - if he sends that you will read it carefully and respond to it in a timely way.  Do not negotiate directly with him, or allow your attorney to negotiate verbally - those are tactics which create more problems.  The negotiation should be through exchange of written proposals, or written offers around specific issues;  or a conference with both parties and their attorneys.  Make sure you are holding firm to what you believe is best, but compromising on things that aren't super-important.

* Plan for these negotiations to fail - they almost certainly will at first.  Plan to go forward toward trial.  Get a trial date set.  Work out a strategy with your attorney, and gather all the evidence you can, and organize it to support your proposal.

* When the trial date gets close - and probably not until then - the other side will want to negotiate, and they will be much more accepting of your proposal.  That's when most of these cases settle - "on the courthouse steps".  Mine settled the day before trial.  Expect that - it's caused by the other side finally accepting that if you go to trial you'll win and he'll look really bad.

* No threats - "You will lose everything!".  Does no good.  Let your formal proposal be your only statement on the matter, except in a four-way conference.

* Begin everything you say with a reference to what is best for your son:  "I believe it will be best for Son to have a stable, secure home, so I am proposing that he always sleep in my house, and see Father during the day."  "I believe the school Son attends is important, so it won't be best for him to live with Father in another school district."  etc.  It's not about you, it's not about your ex, it's about your Son, and that is the reason for everything you are proposing.

Matt thanks for all the good thoughts.  I'm going to print them out.

I think that the threat of DV is basically gone now based on the dynamic of our relationship... .

Also, I live in a province where there is a zero tolerance policy on domestic violence.  Any provision of evidence to the police would result in a irrevocable peace bond which would limit him from seeing me or his son for a year or more. 

I have photos from the last violent attack where he clearly and badly assaulted me.  He would literally lose everything because conviction would result in him being unable to become a citizen in the country we are living in and he would lose his ability to parental rights as a result of it.  Its not just an idle threat.  The courts are extremely biased towards the victim of domestic violence here.

We are going to try to come up with an agreement between ourselves. He doesn't have much money for a lawyer and has said repeatedly that he just wants money and he'll leave.  Sadly he used to tell me all the time that he was just in our relationship for my financial support and I am beginning to think it was more than just a dysregulated statement.

He's told me approximately how much money that he thinks that he is due and he (at least for today) doesn't want any custody.

Our conclusion that we are ready for divorce is not as a result of some huge conflict but rather than culmination of two differences of opinion. 

Again this isn't my first rodeo -- so I am approaching everything with extreme caution -- ie he talks a lot and I listen :)

One option might be to hire a single attorney to help get this done - not to represent either of you but to act as mediator and to put everything in correct form.  Then file the agreement with the court so it will be solid.  My sister did that (in the US) and it saved a lot of money and worked out well.  (But her husband didn't have BPD.)

Be very careful about how you mention the DV documentation.  I had a similar situation - my ex was making things difficult - we used a psychologist as a mediator for several months and got nowhere.  Finally I said, "I have evidence that you have committed several crimes" and I listed them - "and if we need to go back to court all that evidence will have to be submitted to the court, and that won't be good for anyone.  So let's settle this right here today.  Or tomorrow I will have to go down that path."  She talked all around it for a while, but when our time was almost up she agreed to what I had proposed.  I think the dynamics might be the same for you - best to do it with a mediator present and think very carefully about how you say it - what the options are that you give your husband - and then say nothing more and let him choose.

Although it's hard to keep this from being acrimonious, try not to do anything that will make him resent you unnecessarily.  There will be resentment anyway, but try not to taunt him or anything like that.  There is still the chance that even if he can't see your son now, he may be able to see him unsupervised in a year, two years, etc.  Best to try not to give him anything that will make him more vengeful than usual.

I know you are still hurting from this and I'm sorry.  You tried so hard and gave so much love.  I think once you are out of this situation you will feel more relieved than you can imagine.  And still sad, but basically ok.

You are in a strong position for court action, yet you also face this internal quandary:


While I'm not heartless - pardon me for my blunt words here - I also worry about you trying to be too nice, too compassionate, too whatever.  This may be the single most likely time you can set limits to how much trouble he can cause you in the future.  Generally is is not productive to hide the truth, not without really good reason to do so.  If you just settle now and not reveal the DV I worry that he may return later to get the settlement weakened or undone and it would then be too late to get the past DV admitted and used to balance the judicial changes.

He wants a buyout yet has little or no leverage.  Why gift him that?

He doesn't want custody (now) - might even agree to it now - but might return and try for it later.  As in, "Send me more money or I'll reopen the custody matter.  I agreed to no custody but the court will reconsider my rights.  Since you never reported the DV before, it's too late to have it be considered as history against me."  I see that as a very problematic, something he could hold over your head for the next 10-12 years until the children are grown.

In summary, I  worry that your niceness and unwillingness to let him face his own consequences (for DV and for putting money above his children) will both financially hurt you and expose you to greater risk of custody issues in the future.  Sorry, without being in your shoes, that's how I see it.  Hopefully, objective.

Thanks for all the great input.

Frankly I think being convicted would put my husband over the edge and there is less likelihood for our little boy to have a relationship with him... .that's why I am still somewhat protecting him from the legal system.  The legal system here is extremely harsh on these issues and I cannot imagine how traumatic it would be for our son to go a year without seeing his dad who is his entire world.

He made some questionable decisions this morning and is now packing his bags.  I have given him some money to tide him over.

We are going to use the same lawyer to file... .being mostly on the same page regarding all the issues xo

"Convicted" means criminal charges.  It's probably too late for that, even if you wanted to go down that path.

Divorce cases are civil cases.  I think a key issue here is that if you don't bring the information into evidence, and things don't go well, you might not be able to bring it into evidence in the future.  Your lawyer will know how that works where you live - I'm not an attorney, and nobody here can give you legal advice.  Countries like the US, where things are mostly based on English law, probably do things similarly, but it's best to find out exactly how things work where you live.

Generally I think it's best to get relevant information out in the open - in the legal process, not on Facebook or other public places - not to hide relevant information from the court.  Maybe there is a way you can do that - make sure that any violence or threats that occurred are in the court record - without causing more drama than you want for the kids.

For example, you might put the information into evidence, and agree to a schedule for your son to be with each parent, but make it depend on both parents getting objective psych evaluations from a psychologist and following the psychologist's recommendations.  That's what I did - my wife was required by the court to get psychotherapy.  (My evaluation wasn't perfect but I was just supposed to keep seeing the counselor I was already seeing - no problem.)

Someone with a personality disorder isn't likely to get the help he needs - if he does, that will be the best thing for your son, but if he doesn't, then you will have a reason to ask the court to reduce the time he spends with your son, if that's what you think is best.  "I agreed to this schedule based on the requirement that we both follow the recommendations from Dr. Psychologist, but Mr. Baba hasn't done that, so I think it will be best for Son to spend less time with him - maybe supervised visits only."

The other approach - leaving the DV issues out of the court record - could backfire if things don't go well.  The court might not allow you to bring those issues up later.

Ugh, I really feel for you allibaba. This is the moment when the pot gets turned up to boiling and the only person who can adjust the temperature is you.

I can understand why you might think going gently on him will minimize conflict. Have you ever been able to minimize conflict with him though? It's very rational to think that your action will have a positive effect on his behavior, but in general, that tends not to happen when BPD is involved. If he is triggered by feelings of abandonment a year from now, two years from now, five years from now, he is not going to think: "Allibaba cut me a great deal so I'm not going to cause problems."

More likely, he is going to blow through his money and realize that if he wants more, he just needs to ask the court for more custody and the court may very well give it to him, plus an allowance provided by you.

This is a different rodeo than the one you've been through in your marriage. Legal doors close, and they get very, very difficult to open again.

You may want to ask your lawyer a set of questions that will help guide this for you:

1. What should I do to provide the greatest amount of protection to me financially for the long term?

2. What should I do to provide the greatest amount of protection to my son, in terms of custody, for the long term?

Those kinds of questions. Then, if you can, talk to a therapist who can help you look at all the information, all the options, all the decisions and questions, and then factor in BPD, plus your own thought patterns.

The time when you file, you are making decisions when you are most vulnerable. We've been there, and have been through the legal process, as well as watched to see how our BPD sufferers responded.

If P then Q does not work for our circumstances.

Hi all,

I think that I am a little overwhelmed at the moment to really process all of this.

But I wanted to say that there is no statute of limitations on domestic violence in Ontario.  I could have him arrested and charged at any point in the upcoming future given that I have pictures of physical damage that he has done to me.  Its a brutal province for DV.

I still belief that he is mostly likely to get help outside the legal system (his family agrees) and that is the path that I will stay on.  He's made his choices and now he'll live with them.

My husband is not a particularly motivated man and I am not an unlimited well of resources.  He'll take his share of half and then move on to find his next victim.  He's not the kind of guy to keep coming back for more. 

Did he have any prior children?  I'm just thinking that if he "moves on to find his next victim" then (1) he may have additional children from prior relationships and (2) there would be little or no documentation for his next relationship partner to find the history and know the risks, not just of his relationships but also whether they should even have children together.

However, you can only do so much and you can't expend yourself calculating every possible outcome or eventuality.  Just giving a seldom pondered benefit of documenting things.

I just wanted to say that I understand this -- you know your H's unpredictably predictable behavior better than anyone, maybe even better than he knows it himself.

When N/BPDx had his psychotic episode (he told S12 he wanted to beat me with a baseball bat), I didn't file a restraining order, though that was the prevailing wisdom. Sometimes boundary setting is an art, not a science. Instead of an RO, N/BPDx's lawyer and my lawyer had N/BPDx agree that he wouldn't come to my property, would not go to S12's camp, would not go to my work place. I think an RO might've pushed him over the edge, although I'll never know.

When your L drafts the custody agreement or consent order, whatever you call it in Ontario, how do you feel about adding language that gives him one extra hurdle in case he decides down the road to change custody? For example, "Parties agree to this custody schedule. If Mr. Allibaba wishes to change custody he agrees to submit documentation that shows his commitment to treatment and therapy for his xyz behaviors."

Your H can always file to change custody, because that's his right, and this wouldn't override that right to ask for more visitation, but a judge can use that as an important data point in her ruling. "Mr. Allibaba, you agree in the consent order to show documentation demonstrating your commitment to getting treatment. The court would like to see that documentation."

Just a way to insert some future proofing to address the concerns Matt and FD are raising, without having to fire up the DV machine and potentially making things more unsafe for yourself.

Livedandlearned that is really good stuff.  Thanks.

I went to a friend's mom's house for Christmas Eve and had a really lovely time. 

My husband called while we were there (to talk to son) I told husband where we were and he hung up on me. 

He then proceeded to type messages for almost an hour non-stop.  I glanced over them but didn't really read them, even hours later I haven't read them.  Mostly accusations about how the family is into wild drugs and wild sex.  Totally laughable stuff. 

For the first time in such a long time I felt at peace... .I was in a kind and caring family environment where everyone laughed until they were crying.  My friend's mom shared a few things about my husband that I didn't know.  For example, the man who doesn't drink -- is frequently spotted in a bar a town over DRINKING during the day.  My friend's mom asked me if he has been doing hard drugs because they say that his eyes are normally WILD and they weren't like that 2 yrs ago.  I think that the man that I know and love lives a life that I don't know about.

At the end of the messages, my husband said that he's not coming over for Christmas (I invited him for Christmas presents and breakfast because it would be good for our son who hasn't seen him in 2 days)... .I said ok... .that's your choice but you are still invited to be here from 9-12 tomorrow.

The exchanges today are good evidence of the 'behavioral' stuff that my husband has.

He has three daughters from his first marriage.  Unfortunately his ex-wife is a very mentally ill woman (I've had a psych eval myself and apparently have nothing to note in my profile).  When they did their pysch evals back in 2005, my husband had anxiety but nothing else, but her psych eval recommended long-term intensive treatment.  My husband was a good father to his children until she finally pushed him out of their lives with extreme parental alienation (4 yrs ago).  My husband knew that he could fight it, but he was exhausted.  Losing his daughters was one of the key things that threw him into mental illness (though it took a while to develop).  At this point, my husband is tired.  He's been battling this mental illness for a long time.  I may be surprised but I just don't think he's going to play a major role in our son's life.  I don't mean to sound harsh but I'm not concerned about the next girlfriend/ wife, I had full disclosure of what happened in his previous marriage and that did nothing to prevent my situation.  However, I will say that without the last 5 yrs, I'd be half the person that I am today.  As my mom always says God writes straight with crooked lines.

It's a tough situation.

"I cannot imagine how traumatic it would be for our son to go a year without seeing his dad who is his entire world."

Yeah, that's the hard part of these situations.  Even if your husband was dangerous and vengeful, unless you have proof of really bad behavior, you can't keep him out of your son's life forever.  So keeping him on supervised visitation for 6 months-a year or whatever, just may make him build resentment for later, and hurt your son.  I understand your dilemma.  I think so far you are being smart. 

My child keeps asking to visit daddy, who only has visitation a few days a month.  Not sure how I'll handle this as my kids get older.  They may resent me.  He acts pretty loving when he's with them.  They don't know the other side.

It's too bad your husband was kept out of your daughters' lives.  A thought, though.  Maybe he's not telling the whole truth about why?

As twisted and sick as my husband is -- I'll defend him here.  He had a good relationship with his daughters, but his ex believes that they are hers and she owns them.  She was horribly jealous and resentful. 

I can say this because he had 1/2 custody of them... .He never spent any time with them alone... .I was always with them AND HE WAS A GOOD DAD.  She is a very very sick and evil woman.

That's too bad.  Well, how are you doing today?

Awww thanks for asking Momtara!

I just had the absolute most peaceful Christmas that I have had in 10 yrs.  It was a wonderful day... .  I could finally relax.  I think its because I am no longer accountable to him (breaths sigh of relief). 

I had invited my husband to come over from 9-12 for breakfast and presents.  He declined (that would be the polite way of saying it - it actually included him spewing on text messaging for about an hour but I didn't read any of it... .I just responded well if you change your mind let me know.  He calmed down and asked if he could come over around lunchtime.  He spent 2 hrs with our son (and I am really glad that he did). 

I was ok with him being here (not nervous or anything) but happy when he walked back out the front door two hours later!

Not sure if this feeling will last or not but for today I am going to enjoy it.

Alli

Well... .my husband called this morning and said that its his house and he's moving back in.   I calmly and quietly replied that if he comes, the police will already be here and he started spewing hatred.  Initially he said that he didn't care - just have him arrested. I hung up on him when the verbal abuse started.  He called back talking more calmly and I explained... .

"That this is no surprise - he got fair warning on the consequences of his actions if he couldn't behave in our house.  He crossed that line no less than 3 times in the last month and he's made his choices."

I guess that he realized that I was serious because he dropped it. 

For the last two hours he has been texting my phone.  Throwing everything in creation at me.  Manipulation to threats to more manipulation and back again.  I reiterated one last time that if he gets help, lives on his own for a year, then we can date and make a go of it while he is working on himself.  I also explained that if we get divorced and he gets a settlement then there is no going back - no hope.  I want to be clear on that because I could see him taking the money/ blowing it and then coming back in a year when it runs out.

Here's how it works where I live:

The person who lives there has the right to come and go as she chooses, and to change the locks, and to call the police if anybody tries to get in without her permission.

Doesn't matter who is on the lease, or on the mortgage, or who pays for the place - all of that is irrelevant.

The person who doesn't live there - even if he owns the place! - has no right to come there without your permission.

It might be good to check and see if the law is the same where you live, and if you haven't changed the locks, do that.  And let the police know what is going on.

You might also consider the kind of e-mail my lawyer told me to write, after my ex came into my home when I was gone:  ":)o not come to my home without my permission."  Then if he violates that, you can show a judge that you tried, and get a restraining order or "Order Of Protection" to keep him off the property.

Matt,

Its the same here.  I'm just glad that he is out now.  I do plan on and need to get the locks changed. 

He went through a full cycle today where he 'pleaded for another chance.  Promised that he would get help.  For real this time.'  I told him that he could live somewhere else for a year and get help while seeing us regularly (therapeutic separation) but I got called Mrs Hitler after that and things went downhill lol.

Then he spent an hour convincing me to go on a 2 week honeymoon in Costa Rica with him.  I politely declined (our last major issue was on a holiday that was supposed to be our FRESH START). 

This really is a sick sick disease 

Was this by text, or e-mail, or phone, or face-to-face?

"I reiterated one last time that if he gets help, lives on his own for a year, then we can date and make a go of it while he is working on himself."

Just make sure that you're going to be okay with that after a year.  With my hubby, I told him that it would take AT LEAST a year before we could live together again, if ever, and he heard that as "we can get back together after a year."  He still had a lot to work on after a year.  (But our situation was complicated by being in a divorce, so we couldn't really work together on the counseling, which would have helped).  It's a fine offer to make, but maybe you should throw a 'maybe' in there... .just in case after a year you are not ready.  You'll still be married, right?  So all is not lost.  It is a risk either way, I'll grant you.

Anyway, sounds like you handled it right.  I know it's hard when they tell you everything you want to hear and seem so vulnerable.  And yes, it is a cruel disease, because they mean it as they are saying it.  Then after that they say things like Mrs. Hitler.

I would have probably tried a little longer to work it out with my husband if it was only limited to calling me names (not that that's ok), but threats (even not physical threats), isolation, all those things, are just unacceptable.  I know he threatened stuff to you and that's just not an OK way to live.  No normal person does that.  They should go out of their way to make you comfortable in your own home, not scared.

Hang in there.  I know you care about him.  You know, my husband at first kept pressing me to let him back in right away.  Eventually he was accepting of having to be out of the house for a while.  Now he says he may still want to get back together after a few years of counseling.  So if you are firm with your boundaries, you may be able to get him into the right help and not be rushed, if that's what you want.  At the very least, you want him to get counseling either way, as you will have to deal with him all your life.  (Or maybe it'd be best if you just try to make it so that he steps out of your life.  I know that's hard since you love him, but it's an option.  Part of me wishes he'd move far away, and part of me is afraid of being alone.)

My husband wanted back in right away.  After months of my setting boundaries, he is staying counseling and is accepting of how things are and that he can't come home too soon.  Luckily his counselor tells him what he did wrong so he has to take some responsibility.

Meaning that you will continue to file for divorce, but might not go through with it in a year (if he meets your conditions)?

  It was by messenger and I emailed the conversation to myself.


We'll draw up a separation agreement and then in a year when we are eligible we'll make a decision on divorce.

So... .he's full court press now.  Has admitted to his friends and family how he has behaved (admitted to physical violence towards me to his family)... .apparently contacted the priest that married us... .gave his heart to god (I'll believe it when I see it)... .asked to come over today to spend time with our son and to get whatever materials I collected on DBT, biofeedback therapist, contact details for psychiatrist... .  I gave him a time frame that he could be here and he was here.

I did get a hearty chuckle out of the way that he described his situation to his family.  He basically told his brothers that "He got put on probation due to bad behavior (mainly breaking doors and name calling) and then messed up and got chucked out on his @ss right before Christmas with nothing."  Apparently his family told him that he deserved to be in a cold motel room for the holidays.

The priest called to congratulate me on my handling of the situation and reiterate to NOT LET MY HUSBAND MOVE BACK IN.

Now my husband is calling all of this HIS CHRISTMAS MIRACLE... .his life changing moment.

I reiterated to him that he should get help if he wants to get help for himself.  That that may not change things for me.  (its been a very long journey that brought me to this point)

The psychologist gave me a bunch of info on DBT and he called to say it didn't apply to him because he wasn't suicidal and didn't burn or cut himself... .then called back maybe an hour later somewhat blown away because he said that it was exactly the therapy he needs.

I told him that I want to be in a marriage where I feel loved and appreciated and validated consistently and if he can't provide that - I am moving on.  I need to be with someone who works consistently and does not spent all of our money on stuff for himself.  He begged me to give him a year (to try to fix himself) before I start dating other people (furthest thing from my mind).  My first order of business this year is to TRAVEL and I told him that I want permission to take our son travelling when I can!

Oh, my gosh, Allibaba! I hope you have people in your life aplenty to confirm to you continuously that you have performed your own Christmas miracle.

What a gift to your son, and what a gift the priest is giving you by urging you not to let your husband back in. 

And what a gift this boundary may even prove to be to your husband.  |iiii  It's up to him now.

Great job.  Whether they are able to make that kind of a change for the long term, I don't know, but I'd certainly like to believe it. 

I'd also like to believe that not all cases of BPD turn out exactly the same, especially if they are atypical BPD. 

My worry is that it is very hard to change someone who has been a certain way for a lot of years.  WIth new year's resolutions, we swear we are going to diet.  What happens?  After a few months we fall back into old patterns, no matter how motivated we were.  Real change takes a long time.

I read a study a year or two back, by a group affiliated with Harvard Medical School, that said more than 80% of people with BPD who get treatment, and stay with it for 5 years, show remission of major symptoms;  that is, if I understand right, they no longer act like what we think of as "BPD".

The problem is that most people with BPD don't get treatment, or don't stay with it.

Not sure what you can expect within a year, but I think if he is committed to getting help, you'll see some big improvement.

THANK YOU ALL FOR SUCH WONDERFUL VALIDATION.  I feel so grateful that there is not one person (in real life or on these boards) telling me that I am making bad decisions here... .even before my husband publicly admitted to his anger issues and violent behavior.


The beautiful thing here Matt is that I honestly don't have a preference on which way this journey goes at the moment.  I (now) do not believe in my heart that my husband has what it takes to get better.  I will grant him the time and space to prove me wrong.  I guess that this is my Christmas miracle. I know that I deserve better in this life and so does our son.  I can say that the codependency that I developed as a child to interact with my uBPD mom is gone (or at least treated enough that the symptoms aren't causing me issues anymore... .lol)  I posted honestly on these boards for almost a year and many many times people gently suggested leaving.  

I didn't because

1.  I wasn't ready

2. I hadn't fairly and honestly stood up to my husband (his description of being put on probation tells me that I successfully did this)

3.  I still felt able to protect our son against my husband's behavior during the rage (rage never targeted him but I frequently would grab our son just before the rage started and put him in his car seat and then I went back inside to gently but strongly stand up to my husband.)  The reason that I tightened standards up even more over the last couple of months is that I could tell that our son was now VERY aware of the behavior and it was starting to impact him more and more.  The reason that I knew this was that people like KateCat, patientandclear, momtara (and many others posting on this same thread) wouldn't let me put my head in the sand regarding this point (thank you).

The time came and everything fell into place because I am no longer scared of losing this relationship.  It will improve or I won't be in it anymore (my mantra for the last few months).

Its a huge blessing that even the priest agrees on this point.

My husband is once again coming today to play and spend time with our son.  Its a little tiring but I know in my heart that allowing him to do this is best for him and for our son.

I went through something similar, in a different way... .

December 2006, after 10 years of marriage, my wife completely melted down - became violent - called the police and made serious false accusations - we both spent a night in jail.  I decided this could not go on, and talked to two attorneys - one to handle my criminal defense (which was successful) and the other for divorce.

But I decided not to file yet.  My wife filed for divorce, because she thought that would be best for her financially.  I got a place a few blocks away so the kids could walk from one house to the other, and take the same bus to school.  My wife suggested counseling and I agreed;  the guy wasn't effective so we quit after a few sessions.  But we agreed to keep the divorce on hold for a while longer, and she found another counselor, and I agreed again.

This counselor met with us together, and then separately, and told me about BPD.  She recommended "Stop Walking On Eggshells", which brought me here.

My view through that period - by this time almost a year after we separated - was that I would do everything I could to save the marriage, for the kids (then 8 and 10).  Whatever either of the counselors suggested I agreed to, and followed through.  And I was open with both the counselors and with my wife:  I believed she had some sort of problem, and needed to deal with that, or it would not be safe for me to be alone with her.  My wife talked all around it, and the first counselor let her get away with that, so nothing was accomplished.  But the second counselor nudged her toward treatment.

Finally my wife made it clear:  She did not believe she had a problem and she was not interested in treatment of any sort.  We talked about that with the counselor til it was super-clear - she had made up her mind.  That's when I made my decision:  the marriage could not be saved, and I had done my best, so it was time to move on.  I told them both that I would move ahead with the divorce, and shifted my focus from counseling to the legal process, and about 8 months later the divorce was final.

Almost a year spent trying to save the marriage, but it wasn't a waste of time or money, because that's what I needed to do, for myself and for the kids.

If he says he's doing it for you, then any 'miracle insight' moments he has had probably won't last.  (Remember, words and promises mean nothing, long term actions are what count.)  He would have to do it for himself, knowing that a change in himself would not bring you back.  If you told him, get in therapy for a year and then I'll come back, for all we know he might be able to manage a year and then relapse back to old patterns once you were back.  Remember, this is about him, for him getting on the path to recovery, you can't be the reason.  Well, you too, separately, for your new boundaries.  But the marriage, well, this is way too soon to give it any realistic hope.

I told him that he's out of this house for at least a year (period - no negotiation).  I told him that even then I'm not sure that I want him back.  I had a rare mini moment yesterday... .I TOLD HIM THAT I DESERVE TO FEEL LOVED, VALIDATED AND RESPECTED by my husband.  If he can't give me that then I will give it to myself.  I told him that I will give him the time to figure it out and he can spend as much time as he wants with our son... .as long as he behaves.

To his credit - he said he was watching COPS on the tv in his motel room last night and it was an episode on DV.  He said that he was surprised to realize that his behavior was far worse than that of the people on tv being hauled off to jail.  He had an ah ha most that he is abusive. 

Thanks for sharing Matt.  I am very comfortable knowing that I have done my best... .at this point I have realized that life without my husband is actually easier... .that being said... .I am still dedicated to my marriage so I won't completely close the door yet.

Sounds good, and you do deserve to be treated well!

"and he can spend as much time as he wants with our son... .as long as he behaves."

Be careful about making promises like that.  Those things stick in BPD's minds.  You may not want to let him spend 'as much time,' esp. if he uses son to guilt you.

This is not a mini moment, this is a HUGE important gigantic moment. It's the key to everything. It's a core value about you, and if you focus on this, everything else will follow. Fill your cup, allibaba! Hang onto this insight and build it up big big big. 

Ha ha - I guess it wasn't a mini moment lol!  It was the first time in our decade long relationship that I told him that I literally DEMAND what I deserve in life. 

I am smart, I am beautiful, I am successful and I am incredibly COMPETENT.  He talks so darn much that I actually had to tell him to SHUT UP and LISTEN because I would only say this once!  Poor guy... .he was totally and completely shocked.  To his credit, he is not shocked that he's out of the house... .at least he owns that part... .

As a funny little side note, since I kicked my husband out... .our dogs are acting like I am the freaking dog whisperer.  I say jump and they politely ask HOW HIGH MOM... .  lol

Don't worry momtara, I have made it quite clear to my husband that I control the schedules with our son.

:)

Aaaaaaaand you are a dog whisperer.  :)

Truth? When you feel that way about yourself, then you attract people who agree with you. People who are abusive don't want you to know that, because then they think you'll leave and find someone better. Turns out that insulting you, hurting you, controlling you and being mean to you is a losing strategy. Opposite of what they were going for.

Keep filling your cup up up up!

What a long crazy trip this has been (metaphorically speaking!)... .   Since the 22nd of December the following has happened:

In a nutshell - I kicked him out - followed by 3 days of silence and bitterness (Dec 22nd)

Said he was moving back in whether I liked it or not - I countered with the cops would be here if he came. (Dec 26th)  Followed by 24 hours of BPD texting.

Then it was "I won't make it out here without you" - I countered with "should have though about that before you became violent."

Then it was "All we need is time away together" - I countered with "we tried that."

Then it was "I'm sorry - I need help - I'll get better." He even admitted his behavior to friends and family.  Explained that while I enabled him for a long time, but that I stopped about a year ago and the issues are his not mine - I countered with "you are out for 6 months maybe more regardless."

Then it was "We should move back home together"  - countered with "relocating - we tried that."

Which all led to a critical meltdown in which he realized that he has hit bottom.  He has arranged to be admitted into inpatient treatment (addiction + mental illness) which will last for 3-12 months.  He went home (to his family) to wait for admission.

He says that he will make all of this up to me regardless of whether I take him back or not (says that he is selling his possessions to pay me back financially and will work and get the help necessary to be a good father regardless of if he needs to move down the road so that our son can run back and forth between houses).  I told him that talk is cheap. 

He has given me free travel permission, told me that he is too sick to take any custody of our son, has told me that all he wants is a year to try to get better (in inpatient treatment)... . and if he can't make some progress then we need to file for divorce.  Its like the BPD has disappeared and a shell of a man is left.

I took him to the airport before he left and he was shaking and scared like a little boy. 

So everything that I have ever wanted has happened... . all my husband wants is to get help now... . and he's made all the arrangements to get help himself.

And he's been out of the house since December 22nd and I have never been happier.  Still waiting for the other shoe to drop and for me to have a critical meltdown but it hasn't come yet.  All I see is the positives of living a healthy life with our son.  Not sure how I am going to handle things if he gets treatment and gets better... . but that is something to worry about another day... .

Wow, this is encouraging.

My adult son went to residential treatment for addiction - two stints of six months each - and it helped a lot.  I don't think an addict can be "fixed" - he'll always be an addict - but I met people who had been clean and sober for 10, 20, 30 years and more.  Or some people do very well, then relapse, and then get back into recovery, and do well again.  Relapsing is common but it isn't "failure" - you get back on the horse.

So... . if he is committed to getting sober, he could do very well.  Or not.  It's out of your control but there is certainly hope.

One of the things I learned is that it's best for the addict to feel support but also to have a lot of distance from intimate relationships;  I was told, "Tell him you love him and want what's best for him, then leave him alone."  I think it's also best for you, too, to keep some distance while he's in treatment, and maybe afterward too.

You have the opportunity to rebuild your own life and take care of your son - establish a good routine that will give him a sense of security, which is very important to kids.

Then later you can decide what kind of contact to have with your son's father - whether to complete the divorce and only communicate about your son, or whether to try to fix the relationship.

Take it slow!

Best wishes,

Matt

This is good advise Matt... .   especially the loving but distant part.  He's told me that there will be a period in treatment that he'll literally have no ability to contact us. 

I think that the thing that scares me is that I had no idea addiction was an issue (knew about BPD, knew about OCD, knew about anxiety).  He says that he's been lying to me for about 4 yrs and that he just can't do it anymore.  I guess that explains where my disposable income has been going .

He needs to know that recovery is for him and not you or 'us'.  If he doesn't do it for himself, then treatment and therapy is less likely to work.

I recall that a prolific poster and moderator here in past years, JoannaK sometimes wrote that when the spouses got counseling and made progress toward recovery that often they both became different persons and saw the other differently through more balanced eyes... . and sometimes they decided they didn't have a future together.  For that reason also, neither of you should hope - or promise - that if he just seeks therapy and 'recovers' that you two can automatically get back together.

Yeah, I think this is very important.  Best for each of you to get help for your own issues - for you maybe it's about codependency? - and just focus on that - wish him well but little or no contact - don't make getting back with him one of your goals.  Then as you go down a healthy path, you can see where that leads.

In rehab, they told my son, when you leave her get a house plant, and take care of it every day for six months.  And then get a pet, and take care of it every day for six months.  And then form a friendship, and maintain it for six months.  And then, if everything is good, you might be ready for a relationship - but still take it slow.

The idea was, if he jumped back into a relationship too soon, it's not likely to work, and it's going to add stress which can lead to relapse.  Better to build a strong foundation, by taking things slowly and building good daily habits.

Same thing for your husband, probably, and in a way for you (and me) too.

 I'm glad to hear how you feel about it. You still sound strong and centered, and are happy with the boundaries you chose to enforce.

I still hope he rises to the occasion... . but whatever happens to him, you are a success story!

Well, that may explain a lot of the odd behaviors.  You said they started a few years ago.  If it were BPD, it probably would have been present earlier.  Is it drugs, or alcohol?  The outcome all sounds wonderful!  You are getting time to be on your own, your son will be safe and in a HEALTHY environment, and you may even get your husband back if you want him.

My exH took a similar trajectory to yours.  He had to hit rock bottom and admit to his issues too.  Unfortunately, he DOES have BPD and he may have to be in therapy for it for the rest of his life and may not get better.  If he had an addiction, at least there is a stated therapy (it doesn't always work, but at least it exists). 

The big problem with my ex is that he lies and tries to get revenge when triggered.  If your husband can overcome those kinds of things, then maybe there's a shot.  It does make sense that someone would say and do cruel things when trying to cover up a big secret.  You just have to see if he really does make progress and take responsibility.

Oh, still be careful about custody.  My exH said that he'd be too sick to take care of our kids if we divorced.  I thought, hooray, he won't be around them much.  But as the divorce progressed, he filed for primary custody!  He may have been saying he was sick just to guilt me into not leaving. 

Anyway, if you are separating and not divorced, your H may not be lying - but try to subtly get in writing what his visitation will be, if that becomes an issue.

Momtara,

I still believe that my husband has BPD (some weird things early in our relationship), the abuse as a kid, the bizarre push/pull behavior -- but that as his stresses grew he got triggered and then maybe he sought drugs and alcohol.  It was mostly drugs (though I really didn't have a clue which makes me feel like a fool) and apparently when not working he has been drinking at bars during the day (didn't have a clue either).  My husband always spun these really crazy tales and sought revenge when triggered too!

As for custody, we have agreed that he can spend time with him in the house when I say its ok... . but he plans on being in residential inpatient treatment for up to a year so don't really think that is a concern right now.

Alli

Thanks for starting me down this road.  If I am really honest with myself I was in a dark place when I got to these boards.  I remember one morning my husband threw a fit when  I was making him breakfast.  He left for his job at 5am and sitting on the couch at 5:30 in the morning, I really wanted to pour myself a glass of vodka.  Clearly not normal behavior.  For me it was  red-flag   that things were desperately wrong.  Instead I wrote my post about verbal abuse and you responded with advise on boundary reinforcement.  That was a critical Y in the road for me.  I'm grateful that I was fortunate enough to take the path I took and not the path that my father took (with dealing with my uBPD mother)... . my dad started mixing tequila and orange juice and fried his brain on alcohol.

I can't judge... . but for the grace of God, there go I.

Probably a slightly different MO since my ex never said she'd let me do the parenting, but before our separation she had a long period of claimed depression, moaning and groaning around the house, sort of being the waif.  But as soon as the end drew near she morphed into the queen or witch and I've never since seen her mope around.

People with BPD, NPD, or other acting-out PDs are typically very accomplished and slick manipulators who know how to be emotionally convincing and very able to distort the facts and reality.

Yes, and they may be deceiving themselves as much as anyone else... .

Ha ha.  My husband was supposed to be home for a week or less and then into inpatient treatment.  If he had to stay for more than a week, he was going to do some work to make money... . promised that he wouldn't be using our family's resources.  Well now he has a place to stay for at least a month (really nice house with access to a car)... . never contacted anyone for work.

Just looked at our credit card statement and he been TAKING PEOPLE OUT TO DINNER's on my credit card... . playing big shot.  I have been HAD!  Needless to say I brought the credit limit down and he can't get too far on it.

I think that he got home and found another place to not have to hit bottom.  Oh well.  Not my problem.  The longer he stays away (with me not supporting him) the better case for custody etc.

The staff at my son's rehab told me they like to get people direct from jail, because that way they would be motivated.  When my son went there, they told me to bring him direct from jail - literally - no stopping at home to get stuff, or stopping for a last meal - direct from jail to rehab.

When someone takes "one last week" before getting treatment, they often don't actually go to the rehab, or they go and don't stay long - find some excuse not to complete the program.

Beware that if it is a joint credit card account the company may allow him to raise the limit right back up.  If you're the account holder and he's the card holder than he can't play those games with you.  Conversely, if he's the account holder and you're the card holder then the card is his responsibility, however if he's not financially able/willing to pay then you may still get stuck if the divorce process views it as joint debt.

The advice on joint cards is to close them and use others that aren't joint.

And any debt he incurs while you two are married shows up in the financial settlement, both of your responsibility. In my state, anything that goes on a joint card after legal date of separate is the responsibility of whoever incurred the debt.

It can be hard to close joint cards if there is debt, at least until a judge orders something.

Its my credit card.  I just got him one with his name on it.  I have totally financial responsibility for the limits etc.  I can cancel the card and there is nothing that he can do about it!

If you're the account holder, then you can cancel a card holder's card at any time, no need to close the account though you might have to ask the company to issue you a new card and number for the sake of security.  Of course, if his card is cancelled then he may be less likely to reimburse.

Hmmm... . seems like time to set up some boundaries regarding joint finances.

There is no need to have a joint credit card, even if you are willing to pay his bills. Don't know if there is any good reason to have a joint bank account... . or put any money into it, at least.

Stay strong!

Hi all,

Have gotten a few messages from people wondering how I am.  My husband is still away... . I cut off financially as it was clear that he wasn't going to respect our finances.

This last month has been good... . like a breath of fresh air.  I am still allowing my husband time to get back on track but it seems that he is ignoring his issues regarding mental illness... . sigh.  You just can't make people get help.

I am on vacation at the moment but when I get back I am going to meet with the lawyer again to see what prep work I need to do to prepare for a potential divorce.  Alli

Hi Alli.  I have been wondering about you.  A month may be too early for him to full face all his issues.  Imagine what it's like to admit to something you've been covering up for for years.  I'm not taking his side - if he truly won't do it, then it may be time to go.

I remember that feeling of being able to breathe.  I was still reflexively looking over my shoulder for a while, tiptoeing.  It was nice to be free!

But then comes making him your adversary, if you do decide to divorce.  I would advise now to think about how you feel about him having visitation with your son, and if you'd want it to be supervised or not.  Sounds like he hasn't threatened your son, which is good.  But you have to figure all that out.  He has suggested he can't take care of him, from what I remember.  If that's the case, subtly take that and find a way to keep him thinking it's his idea and get that into an agreement, without letting him think you're so excited about it.  It's a delicate balance.  YOu want to protect your son and still not rile your husband.  At the same time, if you think he needs a psych eval, that's another thing to think about.

Keep me posted!

Just checking in... . 3 months of separation and I have been working with an attorney to prepare for the divorce. 

We have *mostly* avoided drama.  What I mean is that the drama has been him slinging verbal threats and nothing 'real'.  Mostly he is doing ok... . getting back on his feet.  Got his own apartment and a job etc.

Plan for the divorce is as follows:

Planning on filing a 'Joint' Non-contentious divorce.  I have done the legal calculations of asset values and plan on offering my husband slightly more than required by law.  I am filing for joint custody and my husband and I have a custody schedule that we have pretty much followed for the last couple of months.  My lawyer and I have discussed and planned ways not to trigger my husband (for example not having him served... . allowing him to go into the lawyer's office to sign the papers instead.

Mostly I am happy and at peace.  Its still a hard time  but I am completely at peace with everything that happened and how our situation is evolving.

Sounds encouraging!

You're avoiding the trap a lot of us fall into - swinging from putting up with way too much, to being inflexible or even hostile.  A good example is letting the other party pick up the papers instead of being served - a nice courtesy which probably saved you a little money too - common sense.

Stay on your toes - sometimes things go well for a while and then back to the drama - but at least you are doing what you can to resolve things moderately and reasonably.

Hi Matt,

Yes.  I am hoping for the best but preparing for the worst.  I have also taken some safety steps (put in an alarm system, got a safety check done by the police)... .

I understand that my husband really loves me. 

He loves me the only way that he knows how. 

I will always love him too... .

but this relationship isn't good enough for me any more. 

I want to be as fair as possible to him.  If he chooses to act irrationally then I will detail with it as it happens. 

Its an ok place to be in :)

Hi Ali. I know how hard it was for you to get to this point.  I am glad you tried everything.  There are still days when I question whether I did the right thing in divorcing my x-husband.  It's stupid, considering how hurtful he can be.  It's just easy to forget that on the days when he's calm, funny, and trying to get help.  I know there was a time when you thought you might just stay separated for a year, and see if your H got the right treatment.  What got you to finally decide on divorce?

I think your son will be better for it, but I know you love your husband and that you are sad, too.  Setting boundaries and not triggering him are good moves.

I was careful with money during my divorce and it still cost me $20,000!  Much of it was in documenting stuff, having my lawyer submit financial info to the court - not even anything useful.  If you can work it out a better way, definitely do that. 

You deserve better than to be worried all the time.  We all do.  I know how hard it is to walk away from someone who you love who is sometimes such a vulnerable child.  Congrats on being so strong.

I'm glad to hear you are still strong and good with your choices.

I'm also glad to hear that your H is doing somewhat better.

I hope it continues to go (relatively) smoothly.

  GK

Having compassion for someone while protecting yourself takes serious strength. And boundaries.

I'm glad you're doing well, alli. Divorcing N/BPDx taught me so much. If you lean into the pain, it hurts, and you'll want to pull away. But don't turn away from it, even when it feels intolerable. That's the only way through.



LnL

Finally decided to get a divorce for the following reasons:  my husband is still blaming his behavior on everything but himself / mental illness.  Since he left I have heard 1.  That it was the diabetes / rheumatoid medication making him crazy (and HE IS CURED) 2.  That the doctors screwed everything up and he was on death's door and the entirety of medical profession in Canada is incompetent (shock of all shocks... . he took himself off all diabetes stuff insulin etc and he blood sugar went REALLY high.  Bizarre... . strange (sarcasm)  3.  It was drugs and alcohol!  (cough... . he smoked weed occasionally and drank NEVER).  He has also intermittently blamed everything on me.

So at the end of the day... . after 3 months, its easy.  Even with threat of losing me... . he still doesn't see that the root of all the problems isn't his body, its not the incompetent medical professions, its not prescriptions... . its him.  He is still in denial. 

And yes, part of it is that I deserve better than to be worried all the time.

The funny part is that if it had just been me... . I never would have left him... . but I absolutely could not stand the fact that he refused to protect our son.  That was beyond comprehension and beyond what I was willing to tolerate. 

Yup, I get it.  Glad you are more at peace w/your decision.

Hi allibaba,

I'm glad to see that you seem to be handling all this pretty well, all things considered.


Seeing the effect of BPD on our daughter (then 2, now 3) is what finally motivated me to start making changes of my own that helped to add some stability to our home.  Unfortunately, as these things go, the stability is not consistent, including towards our D3 -- which I suppose is one of the reasons why I have been reading up on this board in case I end up needing any of what I am learning from others here.

I hope this whole process goes as smoothly as possible for you, your son, and your husband.   

Zaqsert,

It still baffles me that I am here.  I joined these boards when our son was about a year old. 

I immediately saw the need for changes but I really believed that he loves me enough and loves our son enough to make changes in his behavior.  I really honestly thought if I became strong that he would follow.  The psychologist that I have seen says that I began to make peace with separating from him and broke the 'bonds' of codependent behavior through the process of using the tools.  She said that to effectively use them I had to get comfortable with the fact that I might lose him through the process.  She says that that is why I am coping so well at the moment. 

The morning that I kicked my husband out, my son said his first full sentence and it was ':)addy go now.  Daddy go.  Daddy go away now.  Go!'  Ok maybe it was a few sentences but that morning I heard my son put together his first complete thoughts verbally.  My husband was in the kitchen saying how bad a woman I am, how I had ruined his life, etc etc and I was in the bedroom hurrying to get our son dressed and get us out the door and away from his rage.  My heart broke when I heard a (not even 2 yr old) trying to defend mom with such intensity.  It broke my heart.  I had been working so hard (as we all do) to shelter him from dad's storms.  I realized that it wasn't good enough.  15 minutes later my husband slammed a car door on me (fortunately our son was well away from this... . already in the other car).  My husband had 'laid hands on me' in the past and I told him that if HE EVER TOUCHED ME AGAIN... . there would be NO NEGOTIATION and our relationship would be over. 

Even to that point I still thought that there was a remote possibility that he would seek treatment for mental illness.  Unfortunately no.  Even the first night that I came home to an empty house, I was relieved.  A month ago, our son's daycare provider shared that she started to see real stress manifesting in our son the 2 weeks before I kicked my husband out.  All along I had been trying to give my husband the best shot at staying but I was watching our son like a hawk for the day where it wasn't good enough anymore... . and the day I saw it... . was the day that I took action. 

Ironically, I think that this is actually best for all three of us in the long run :)  Since moving out he is starting to get his life together.  I believe that he is probably at the mild scale of BPD (and probably mildly bipolar)... . when he is standing on his own two feet he tends to do better... . If you truly love something... . set it free :)  I truly love my husband and that is why we can't be together any more :)

That last sentence almost made me cry.  You are so strong. 

I think it's just too hard to live with men like this when you have kids.  (I wonder if both of us would have stayed longer and let ourselves be abused if not for the kids!)  It seems like you got out just in time, esp with what your son was saying.

My son was starting to defend me too when he was under 2.  One day, my xH kept yelling at me, "Are you going to clean that up?" My son kept responding, "No!"

You certainly gave your husband plenty of chances.  I'm not sure I was aware that things got physical.  Definitely time to go.

I probably should look at my older emails to narrow down the event but I seem to recall my son was 22 months old when this happened:



From the mouths of children... . Yes, children know at some level even if they can't communicate it well.  There comes a point where we accept that we simply can't manage the family relationship with one hand tied behind our backs, it take two to make it work and when one is so frequently oppositional then we just have to choose another Path, as much as it pains us to have to do it.

*mod*

I'm going to lock this thread since it's reached the 4-page limit, but that just means Alli can start a new thread so we can keep following along. Alli -- I know people want to hear from you, so please start a new thread letting us know how you're doing. I'm so glad you came back to let us know you're in a good (tho difficult) place.  

LnL