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Has anyone fallen in love with someone else and just because you have been " starved" emotionally from your BpD spouse and feel guilty about it? I know there is no justification for cheating but what if being with this kind of person has broken you done so much that you are not the same person you were before you were with this person? How do you forgive yourself or justify falling in love with someone who was able to fulfill your soul with all that has been stolen?

I have, it's amazing how beautiful someone can look and feel who is basically kind.

Part of the control is to make sure you don't see what monsters they are by comparing them to others. This is why they hate good people around you.

But how do you prevent it from happening again , once you see what a normal relationship looks like and how good it feels to be with someone who trully loves you?did you end up leaving the person with BPD? What happened to the person you feel in love with?

Early days of a relationship aren't full on love, that's for BPD, tenderness and kindness and the sharing of friendship. Being abused is a hidious act. The FOG kept me wishing and hoping, lies and damn lies.

    I am recently separated from someone with BPD after 11 years.  She had been cheating on me multiple times over the entire relationship.  I too feel cheated, empty, and broken.  But I have found some great friends, even ones I am attracted to, and I do feel guilty for "loving" them, but that is part of it all.  She destroyed many of my close relationships blaming them for something or saying they were terrible people or saying I was choosing them over her.

    In terms of you cheating, I don't advise it.  But this is coming from the one who was cheated on (many times).  Are you still trying to stay with this BPD person?  This person will make you feel bad about any good feeling you get from other people, especially if it threatens them or what they get out their relationship to you.  You deserve to be loved properly, healthily, but in my opinion, cheating won't do it, will only drive the wedge deeper, his/her blame of you deeper as well.

Unfortunately, I have had multiple online/emotional affairs.  I'm not proud of it, but I have to say it's really hard to completely feel awful about them because you did get that moment of fullfillment - that feeling of having someone actually see you for you.

But the further I distance myself from them, the more I realize how deeply I felt about someone really just being nice, compassionate and interested in me.  At that kind of scares me.  I don't know if I'm staying or going yet, but I will have to be VERY careful about any relationships I might have if I left.  All I know now, is I have a lot of work to do, either way.

I definitely feel this starvation for affection. If a girl is simply kind to me, the old me pops right out, as if it I can sense that I can be real with this person. It makes me miss myself. I have not been sexual with anyone else while I was with my stbexBPD, but I have 1 or 2 things that made me really ashamed. In hindsight, they probably weren't awful or as bad as what my pwBPD has done. They just made me question myself and and really focused my attention on this severe lack of safe affection that I crave with some nice girl.

Hi nancyw1234,


these things do happen although many people are not so open about it. And it is certainly a gut wrenching experience - realizing that you are not the person you were before - realizing that your commitments are not 100% bullet proof. Makes you question yourself and your view of the marriage very hard 

It may be worth reflecting on your values, what you have learned in the process, how you avoid it in the future and whether your own judgment is holding you to b&w standards, and on the price you already have paid in inner turmoil. Compassion for yourself is sometimes not easy in such a situation but eventual there needs to be forgiveness.

Fallen in love? No. To do so would have been the end and highly suspect, as in; am I really in love with this new person? Could they instead be a temporary placeholder for all that I ever wanted?  She accuses me regularly of wanting to replace her with a younger hotter woman. Huh? Simple acceptance and something close to "normal" would be nirvana regardless of attraction.

Came close to sexual infidelity, but some things just won't happen. Besides, many of us men have strong sexual attraction to our BPD SO.

had a "strong crush" on another man years ago. but frick, he was the first guy to pay me any attention in half a decade at that point. but since then (he found out - oh lord!) i am watched like a hawk. everyone (regardless of gender, age, marital status) is a suspect. i think part of his BPD has been an idealization of my appearance or attractiveness. i mean, he don't ever want it/ me, but he is convinced that if i turned up single people would be tripping over themselves to get to me. i always said he had "love goggles" (like beer goggles, only you know... ), but that's before i realized he was sick with something specific. i CANNOT get away with anything... . he is VERY paranoid. i can't talk to men, or women for that matter. he often accuses me of being a lesbian too. hello? we've had sex at LEAST 1000 times, i think you'd know if i were into women.

WHATEVER!

how do you get over an emotional affair? it depends on your morals and values. in my mind, there is no justification for that type of betrayal. even if you pwBPD has done it to you, in addition to betraying your heart. we, as healthy people, have to take the moral high ground i feel. to keep ourselves safe, removing temptations is a good start. if you feel you NEED to have that connection with someone, then i think the best thing to do is just go ahead and detach.

Something else to think about…this really helped me as well.  I remember asking my therapist why I would do something like this, knowing how I would feel after.  She told me in an odd/sick way, I was satisfying two needs at the same time.  One to finally feel that connection with another person, and two, I actually now had something to REALLY feel bad/guilty about.  After all the years of being blamed for nothing, I finally gave her something to REALLY be upset about.  It basically allowed me to stay in this relationship and feel bad and continue to accept all the blame.   

When she put it this way, it suddenly made sense, and also showed just how terrible a move this was (as though it wasn’t bad to begin with).  So while we tell ourselves we are just getting that need met that we haven’t had met in a long time (if ever), we are just condemning ourselves to more guilt. And this time a lot of it for real, so it’s even harder to make sense of it all.

Just in my mind. I did a lot of daydreaming as an escape. It wasn't about sex, it was about having a normal life with a normal relationship, and a normal family. So un-guy like!  :)

These comments resonate so powerfully for me its hard to contain myself.

My BPDw is 50, sexually attractive, dresses to it, is edgy, and, but has great poise and empathy. She offers veiled threats constantly about other men desiring her. I advise her to go for it. I also work hard to look my best, while living my life with integrity and character. Nevertheless, she has a similar approach to your husband. Watch me closely, monitor my interactions with any and all other women, and, constantly accuse me of wanting to leave her for a young, hot, professional woman. The disconnect is bizarre. She insists that every attractive woman that I cross paths with wants me; yet, in the midst of dysregulated rants calls me a useless, ugly, terrible, and pathetic loser of a man that could never be loved by another except for my money. Sometimes she runs on for hours gas-lighting me over my interactions from parties, events, and conversations from 20 years ago! Its incessant and grinding.

So, what did she do? Enter into an emotional affair that slid into the sexual via a Skype session (she claimed it happened out of feeling sorry for him). The guy was a near tragic character to a point that she's embarrassed claiming it was nothing more than a safe game for her to play from a distance. I've come to terms with parts of it; but, the things she messaged that were intensely personal, private, and dripping of lust and love still have me devastated. The things she said about me were equally devastating. If they had engaged in a sexual liason it would be much easier to absorb. Giving herself to him emotionally has been far more difficult to absorb. I may never get over it.

Detaching is difficult for a lot of reasons that fall within the realm of "practicality". There is also the reality that I do love her. But; I often wonder if I'm now the one that's "screwed up". Nevertheless, I cross paths with quality women. Some of them have known me professionally for years. And; yes, they sometimes engage and open the door to more. Its enticing and I'm gratified that other's might find me compelling and decent enough to want more... . but I slam it shut. I wonder if it would be dishonest and cruel to maintain the relationships, but on an arms length platonic basis in the vent she finally manages to kill our marriage.

dude. that's DEEP.  |iiii

Sigh.  Yeah, me too.  The "daydreaming" keeps my mind from racing about the troubles in my current relationship.  I don't think this is completely healthy, but I think this kind of daydreaming helps me cope with her constant emotional needs. So when I lay in bed at night, instead of thinking about all the things she burdens me with, and worrying about that, I let my mind daydream to a healthy relationship, and that helps me fall asleep better.

I've also learned I cannot lean on my girlfriend for my emotional needs.  If I am depressed, it stresses her out.  If I am sad, it stresses her out.  If I am worried about money, it stresses her out.  So most of my emotional connection winds up being channeled through close friends, several of which are female.  I don't know if this is considered an emotional affair or not.  But the reality is, if I am worried about something in my family, I will go to my girlfriend, and she may listen but not empathize.  Instead, she will get jealous that I even have a close family, make judgmental comments about my family members, etc.  So I will seek out a close friend, talk, listen, cry, and get a hug.  For example, my sister in law attempted suicide a few months ago.  Discussing that with my girlfriend, she was saddened and shocked, but did not seem to understand the burden or sadness on me, and instead made critical comments of my sister in law, like, "how could she do that - she's a mother!  that makes me so mad... . "  I wish I could go to my girlfriend with this kind of thing, but sadly I need the emotional support of others somewhere, and I may turn to other friends. 

But the thing that is worrying me now is that I would never figure myself a cheater, and I know if I cheated I would feel tremendous shame.  And I always viewed cheaters negatively - why not break up with someone first before cheating?  But now I understand why it happens sometimes.  I can have a day where all I get is dumped on with my girlfriends problems, and I sit and wonder why she can't just handle some of them on her own, I wonder how I got into this, how I am going to get out of this, how I am going to regain my space.  And then a beautiful waitress or co-worker will be kind and smile at me, and all I can think about is what it would be like to be with her instead, and then I feel ashamed for thinking that.

My heart aches when I see you guys how you take your marriages or relationships seriously. Cheating in normal relationships is another issue which is not comparable to BPD relationships! It's always best to end the BPD relationships first and then start another one but often long term marriages destroyed when you ACCIDENTALLY meet somebody else, usually healthy guys and emotional correctiveness will happen.


Often might be risky if we don't resolve our issues first because we might end up with another borderline and you know the rest!

What do you think if your BPD partner find out about any affairs? Either they took a revenge and have affairs themselves or threat for a suicide. They are not able to have a feeling of a wife or husband. They are only 3 year olds and intellectualise the facts!


We have to ask ourselves if we fell in love with somebody who loves us and care for us and still we want to continute with our BPD partners, what's wrong with us ? Are we too damaged or is too late? It's really hard and almost impossible to look after our mental health whilst we are in the relationship with a borderline!

My psychiatrist told me that is really heart breaking for him when he's got so many non BPDs patients and how they prevented themselves from falling love with somebody else and in fact they didn't take those opportunities to get the hell out. Our roles are as caregivers not husbands or wives!

Don't get me wrong I'm completely disagree with any types of cheatings in normal relationships but we are in BPD ones.

Until recently, I would have shuddered at the idea. Now, 22 years in and no further forward than the day we got together, I'm tempted. I've taken the rap, accusations and paid all the prices.

I long to be held, touched with tenderness and talk for hours about nothing... . Just to share mutual minds.

Obibens

I think your therapist doesn't know what BPD is!

Rj47

Bpd relationships are zero sum games! We married to games. This is the nature of the illness we feel guilty rather than the person we are involve with. My son is only 7 and after did separate my son stayed with my ex. He feels GUILTY if he wants to stay at night with me and is worried if my ex gets upset with him. He wants to make him happy and for me as a mum witnessing this is very heart breaking that my son feels obligations for him.

You've got no responsibility for your wife's well being. She had this disorder since she was born and a long time before she met you. You've got to think about yourself. Her FEELINGS for you is very different from yours. Don't you think it's time to change your patterns of thinking?

It would be your loss if you continue thinking this way, nobody else!  

It is interesting this entire dynamic that at the beginning leaves you trying to rationalize it on 'normal' terms but at the same time feeling like you have slipped into the rabbit hole inside a twilight zone. I have never in my life encountered anyone who literally watches, inspects and critically judges everything I do, don't do or appear to want to do... . even a body gesture and God forbid one out in public. Yes Seneca I hear my own thoughts in your writing... . his sickness makes it impossible for me to get away with ANYTHING but what is worse is that often I'm accused of doing things and be guilty of things that I haven't done... . he will perseverate on things I confided in him about that happened 20 years ago and use that as ammunition to this day as soon as he becomes dysregulated. The shaming is the most damaging I find and something that has inflicted the most amount of pain and suffering that was and is never necessary. I've learned to ignore him and just shut him down by saying to keep those thoughts to himself because they are his issues and not mine.

The other void we experience is the fact that if we are upset in any way that totally stresses them out and triggers them. So just as the other poster stated that makes us feel like we aren't getting any support but rather causing them further dysregulation, pain and confusion. So, in essence we are always walking on eggshells and don't feel that we have a right to our own feelings but instead spend our days trying to hide everything.

And yes I too have been accused of being a lesbian. One of our worst break ups happened at a music venue when the lead singer gave me a hug. My man went insane and after that he gave me a 5 minute window to buy a cd from what ever artists were playing, with clear instructions that he didn't want to see me talking or touching them nor were they allowed to touch me. Then saying "I shouldn't have to watch everything you do".

It is a very difficult thing to not desire comfort in the arms of another who is healthy and doesn't twist you up like a pretzel, in the end though I think deceit always ends badly. It is like the others said better to just detach and try and move on. Sadly by the time our partners are done with us, it is us that feels like we have a lot of work to do to heal and return to the land of what is normal.

After so much constant suffering and feeling so turned upside down I'm not even sure anymore what a relationship is like with someone who isn't ill like this. I don't know if I can trust myself anymore to trust anyone strangely except for my UBPD. I know that is backwards and it should be the opposite but for what ever strange reason my our co-dependency has made him and our relationship my normal base line so when we break up and he distances himself from me it feels like my world is literally upside down. Like everything is splitting apart at the seams and only when him and I reconnect do I feel 'normal' and calm again. It's strange and I'm trying to figure this out with a T.

But do I wonder what it would be like with someone who wouldn't abuse me in so many internally damaging ways, absolutely. The shaming, blaming, accusations, interrogations, punitive treatment consume the majority of the relationship dynamic. Just when we deal with one crisis another is manufactured. I feel in many ways like a drug addict with him and that may also be part of the problem. Somewhere inside me I want to be able to just let go and carry on before I become permanently a sufferer of PTSD or something worse.

I want to believe that I can love someone else and be just as crazy about them but the truth is I've never been so crazy about anyone except for my guy. And in some ways he understands me better than anyone ever in my entire life. There are a lot of contradictions which is what makes it all so crazy making. On the one hand I find he understands and sees me for who and what I really am, not expecting me to change what is broken yet at the same time he expects me to be perfect and almost read his mind. If I get something wrong and he feels that I haven't protected him he becomes outraged and feels that I don't love him and that I don't have his best interest at heart. I hear his words saying "you are supposed to have my back but things like this just show me you don't love me. If you did you would never have done this". Well to give you an idea I sat on the opposite side of the couch beside someone else at a dinner party. No biggy right? Wrong! Everything is a biggy with them.

I find it interesting that many of us are the ones in therapy, because essentially we are trying to make our way to a place where we can accept a healthy love, one that we deserve. For now I daydream about it and yeah if a man shows me a kindness there is a moment inside me that wonders what that would be like. I know for myself I couldn't betray him and I wouldn't want to do that to anyone. If I am going to embark on something like that than I have to leave him and be honest.

I have endured months of accusations just based on how I responded to a man in public regardless of whether they are old friends or not and that was me just being polite, I can't imagine what would happen if I actually betrayed him... . that is his single most nightmare. But I think we all think about this and through our quiet despair and suffering long to be comforted by someone genuine and giving. It feels more like a dream to me because of what has become the norm in my world with my complex tortured UBPD.

I still hope for escape and am taking this time to evaluate what I am able to but his grips are deeply rooted in me.

I actually think she gave me some incredible insight into my psyche at the time.  I no way did she say that was right/wrong.  She saw that my guilt over the actions caused me to be even more submissive in the aftermath.

Why do you think she doesn't understand pd's?

Obiben

My husband is a psychiatrist and he told me that most therapiest don't know what BPD is. When you say BPD, the first thing comes to everybody's mind is ragging,... .

In fact is much more complex than crazy behaviours.

Their pathalogical issues are very serious and damaging to our mental health. If she gave you good insight about your psyche, in reality you should have taken some steps towards leaving. When I saw my first psychiatrist, he made me shivers to wake up and took it seriously. I don't know how to be thankful to him.

Thank you for your reply and you are correct that I needed a bit of a wake up call.  But she does understands I have to do this at my own pace.  She has more than once told me that I she would recommend that I 'get out of there' and that she's not a healthy person.  She has also let me know that if I do stay, she's extremely unlikely to get much better, because she is so high-functioning.

With all that being said though - thank you very much for your input.  Its obvious that I struggle with taking on too much blame, and your words will help keep me grounded  |iiii

I certainly have wanted to, especially knowing one woman who kinda asked me over to her home once already; however, I did not and will not, because if I would be caught, it would make matters with my BPDw a lot worse than they are, but I do daydream about it off and on.

The paranoia is a nightmare.

The 'facts' they have to beat you and hate you for, viciously, just push you away. There are no grey areas, alternative reasons or simple differences. All roads lead to Damascus and you are damned if you do, damned if you don't. You are a liar who cannot face the truth, a deviant in denial, disgusting, warped bla bla bla

Then it's all okay again, until the next time, when you maybe smile at another driver as you let them go before you, talk about how nice another town is with your Dad or take a bath at the wrong time. You just don't know how to behave properly and need teaching.

The hate and anger, sarcasm and vengeance cuts deep. My life has become a criminal trial and every aspect of it is scrutinised. It's not possible to have a close and intimate relationship with someone who flips out at the drop of a hat and asks you to take responsibility for their feelings or perceptions, or lead a full and active life, free of fear.

Ultimately, nobody can make you have an affair and there are no excuses, only reasons for leaving before trading your integrity.

I understand the need to talk to someone else about the madness in your life though. It's a form of validation I suppose, the reason we come here too. Is BPDF an emotional affair? If we could turn to our partners and share our thoughts without triggering a rage or character assassination, would we honestly be here?

Obibens

If facts proves to you that your wife is incapable of loving anybody and she's ok the way she is will you still continue with her?

Will still continue saving your opponent? Will you participate in her games? You mentioned that your wife is a high functioning one. She knows that what she's doing and you always lose in her games. You are a weak opponent for her because you can't work out her games!

My husband is a high functioning one as well. Sometimes I even felt he's not that bright! He is EMOTIONALY a 3 year old but extremely bright. INTELIGENCE is not affected in BPDs but all brain lobes, limbic system,... . are affected!

The more I interact here, the more unbelievable the commonalty of shared experience! But it gets no better. At least I have begun to know its not just me.

I let an attractive woman with her husband get on a hotel elevator first. She smiled saying thank you. That was New Years Eve. Weeks later I'm still on trial; a liar, denier, serial cheater and can never be trusted.

An actual trial would be wonderful. Trials are based on facts (evidence), with an arbitrator (judge), and impartial judgement by uninvolved peers (jurists). If only we could have that kind of justice and move on. Eliminate the triggers best you can, parse every word; think about every action however small always vigilant to be on your guard Convince yourself you can eliminate every placeholder for their discontent. We cant. All is well for a time and you feel you can enjoy life with them. But, their recorder is always filling the files for the next round when they need it. We are judged before offence had been committed.

Rj47

She plays games with you! One of the reason makes men trapped with these women is kind of fake jealousy and games and you think how much she loves you or how much she needs you. You might get frustrated consciously but your unconscious wants it,in fact is NOTHING in your relationship is about you! 

My father cheated on my mother, and I swore that this would never be something that I could ever do.

I held on for 20 years and gave it all I had.  I was threatened weekly with divorce, I was  nothing, I would be on the streets,  I was monitored like a prisoner.   I was crazy and he was leaving me.  That is how I felt for the last 5 years of my marriage.  I was nothing and I was nothing without him.

I had an affair, I had a breakdown, I left the marriage, and he has effectively taken almost everything from me. 

I feel better away with nothing than I did with him.  I know I am not nuts, I can love someone who will love me back. 

It is a very dangerous thing to do to someone with BPD.  I wish I would have had the strength to leave earlier, and I wish I could have minimized the damages. 

But I didn't and I am getting through one day at a time.  I actually feel happy.

I am not condoning cheating and I am ashamed of my actions.  It is a difficult path.

A game. Yes, but so unbelievably tragic. My heart breaks for her. I've not crossed the line of engaging with mother person. Doors open and I run. Married men shouldn't do such things. Another door opened recently and I find myself thinking "what I?". Then I feel guilt and hopeless as if I'm damaged goods.

Soulsister

Good for you and don't be ashamed of your affair. My husband took away everything as well. That affair opened the reality door for you because you weren't in a marriage in the first place. You took the RISK and that caused you to be successful. If you wanted to feel guilty or afraid of taking that risk you were still in that toxic BPD relationship!

Do you think your husband cares? Of course not and he's happy to screwed you financially. He doesn't think the same way you do! 

Rj47

You are lucky! Take the risk and save yourself and let her to find another victim to use!

As an eastern woman I don't accept affairs at all but I feel sick of my naivety all these years. My husband purposely introduced me to rich young professionals to get rid of without money! For an eastern man, this is a disaster! If you cheat on them that would be over forever but my husband had sadistic enjoyments that's why I noticed that I don't know what is BPD and I started researching and shocked, very shocked. I'm still shaking at nights!

I'm so sorry. I've not done it, but I think about it more and more. More and more during the times she is stable and loves me with all the she is capable of. I used to think, this time maybe she will change. Now I think about the other person even when she is at her best with me... . and I don't like it. Its a simple thought about what normal might be; a dream about giving myself fully to another without fear.

Rj47... . I'm happy to stand trial with a proper court of law   It would be so much easier than the kangaroo one I terminally find myself in and I would also get a set time for my sentence :) I could hold aloft my polygraph for a start!

After all these years of digging, sniping, downright accusing and fogging, I have actually become closed and dare I say, secretive. Not in the affair way, but not being bake to go to him with normal worries or life's hiccups, because having been through the wringer so many times, I know what the reaction will be and I'd rather deal with any problems on my own than have them made worse by his negativity too.

So, in some ways, when he says I'm secretive and closed, he is right. What he doesn't see is his contribution to the problem, or how many years I was very open and sharing, but took the raging paranoia and pain that comes for both of us with it.

Rj47

That love you mentioned is not about you, is a part of splitting reflex so she would be the same with Mr x, y and z! It's nothing in your relationship about you!

Hello all. I can speak from the point of view of a non that had an emotional affair. It was sparked by such a starvation of affection, coupled with his repeated physical affairs. I fell in love with a previous coworker (who had moved away). He was in love with me too. Like many of you, I had been accused of cheating for our whole marriage (now 17 yrs). He found out about it and was understandably devastated. I broke it off with the man because I knew in my heart that I could never fully commit to him. I was and still am very in love with my BPDh. Maybe my childhood contributes to my need for a Bpd's drama. And maybe I did subconciously do it to enable myself to stay with my husband after all he had done to hurt me. It gave me a legitimate reason for him to be angry with me. I think part of what enables me to stay with him and now stay faithful - even emotionally- is that I saw how much my emotional affair hurt him. I had to come to terms with that guilt and also radically accept who he is and what kind of emotional support he is capable of giving me. I have come a long way ( in the 18 months since my affair stopped). We are actually 4 months into a therapeutic separation. I think what has helped me most is understanding how a person with BPD sees the world. I have learned what he is and is not capable of giving me. Radical acceptance is a good thing. Boundaries have helped greatly and accepting that I can only control myself- not him. If he cheats again and I find out - I will leave. Only time will tell on that one. In the mean time- I am very careful of over sharing with attractive members of the opposite sex. Too risky. Hang in there everyone. - pecia

Thicker skin.

I often wonder how different I might be today had I not lived most of the last 30 managing her emotional health and continuously defending myself from streaming accusations. I learned to parse words, limit my vocabulary and change my interaction with others in her presence. Recalling conversations for rebuttal when the accusations came; the morning after social outings I would replay the events in my mind searching for any comment hook, look or gesture that she might use to accuse me of an offense. I was specially vigilant never to smile, speak with or make too much eye contact with attractive women.

Over years and almost unconsciously, my behavior began to change into a pattern I will refer to as "life between the 40s". Maybe you know football? Outside of those yard markers is where the real stress of the game is played. On offense; its increasing positive expectation, urgency, and, intensity as the ball is moved closer to the goal line. On defense; dread, panic, and, an intensity that is inversely proportionate as the ball moves closer to your goal line. I'm 55 years old and despise the game; but, still love playing and watching it. Such is the metaphor for life.

My point is; I shut her out and denied both of us 80% of the pain and joy that a shared existence and healthy co-dependency brings. I could never display too much happiness or sadness. Show stress? Forget it. The reaction created more chaos. Better to suffer alone through the collapse of a successful business, long lonely nights lying awake, near constant fear, self doubt, and... . many many tears. Reinventing myself to save it and working long hours I was accused of having affairs, deserting her, having a work addiction (!) and being selfish. My descent into that abyss and back and was alone and in secret (as much as I could hide it). Show joy? Submit to stinging ridicule, rebuke and criticism for being selfish in some small happiness while she suffered. I hid it all.

Its a tragedy that she missed out on some of the best and worst that life could have brought us; and I resent her greatly for it. Unaware and in a self-imposed exile of her own creation (with my help) those opportunities for shared growth are forever lost.

Of course we evolve into leading secret lives. Its an inevitability. We do it to survive and inadvertently reinforce the dysfunction; but, have no one to blame but ourselves.

Excellent football analogy!  It's obvious that both her personality and my personality conrtibuted to this, and I'm trying to grow from this knowledge.

But it's difficult (impossible?) to not live a secret life while still involved with someone with BPD/NPD.  They never really want to hear your side of things, unless it validates or praises.  It can't ultimately be healthy to resign yourself to a secret life, can it?  Isn't that just embracing the some of the 'fleas'?

But it's difficult (impossible?) to not live a secret life while still involved with someone with BPD/NPD.  They never really want to hear your side of things, unless it validates or praises.  It can't ultimately be healthy to resign yourself to a secret life, can it?  Isn't that just embracing the some of the 'fleas'

Yes... . embracing the fleas is a good analogy. She told me this morning that we will never resolve anything because I am unable to communicate. You called it above... . none of us communicate unless it validates their feelings. Even to refute them in their own words, letters and evidence simply causes a shift to some other issue they can make stick. So, maintain a sharp memory, watch your words and have the sword drawn when they come for blood. 

I've been enticed to engage (ie; emotional cheating) with women but realize the stupidity of thinking I could fill the despair. Even the thought of using another person that way is untenable. So for now I continue to dream... . "what if?", and prepare for the worst.

She started therapy for the simple reason that I finally gained leverage a few months ago. She went so far over the top that even she could not deny there was something terribly wrong.

Will she benefit from the therapy? Right now... . I doubt it. But, I am doing this for her as a last chance. I don't want her to suffer, but acknowledge that I cannot save her. So, embracing the fleas becomes the lesser of two evils until something breaks and I can take a different path with character in the knowledge that I did my best.

Is it common for a pwBPD to claim their partners (or family, friends) can't "communicate"?  I met my GF on the internet, and I accidentally stumbled across one of the first messages she sent me, claiming that she was tired of dating because all the men she meets are emotionally immature and can't "communicate".  Three months after us meeting, she was saying the same about me.  That I am emotionally immature and don't know how to "communicate" or be in a relationship.  Foolish me believed her, and went to therapy to learn why I fail at communicating.  30 minutes in, the therapist said I have no issues communicating, and said she likely has a personality disorder.  She still talks about others not "communicating" with her. 

 *) rj47... . Please consider changing your name to rj007 

I take 50% of the responsibility for us, 100% for me. I take none for our communication problems, his choices or chosen thinking style and continued bad judgements. If I had a communication problem, it would be me fighting with my family members, falling out over wills, being the worlds victim and portraying anyone that he associates with as having a sexual or behavioural problem.

I'm 42 ... . Back when we got together, there were no websites like this one, shoot, I didn't even have a computer. We didn't know what was and wasn't healthy. We just got on with it and trustingly accepted the upsets of our partners as a difference of opinion or bad day and made changes to ourselves. We cut them slack. We understood. We saw broken families and blindly loved and gave, thinking we'd be seen as good people one day. We believed in family and stood firm, with hope.

I'm regularly told that I have intimacy issues. It's true. I do. But only with him and they took years to develop. Speaking of my feelings or needs sees me and my kids put on the street. Pointing out what causes me to clam up makes him angry and I'm told that I can't take responsibility. Healthy choices for me have dire consequences for me and my dependants. I'm selfish, demanding, mental, narcissistic, BPD and don't know how to behave. I've been called a borderline this week, because I didn't wash the bin lid when I was expected to. Part of the borderline dance and my control issues apparently? He thinks it's my way of provoking him to get some narcissistic supply, so unless I do just what he wants, I'm mental and he's nasty.

I'm not on the pitch anymore rj. I'm not even in the stadium. I'm tired of watching my team lose and getting a telling off from the coach in the dressing room. He can threaten me with whatever he likes. The chances are, he's already done it and I've got nothing  left to lose, other than my sanity.

Stay strong and stand firm. I hear your intelligence, reasoning and excellent communication skills. I'm very sorry that you cannot be heard or treated with respect.

Obibens... . I was interviewed after a DV incident about 9 years ago now. It was very informal, in a police car, by the beach because I was so scared of a police car being seen at my mums. I gave a concise, clear and brilliantly recalled statement which prompted the pc to say that he'd never taken such an easy statement before. Usually, people were flustered, all over the place, running on and he couldn't keep up. I explained that I'd been giving evidence for a long time and had to keep a mental note of things for years. In return, I'd never given such an easy statement 

 So how in the world did you handle it when he didn't try to refute your statement or tell you that you remembered it wrong?  :) :)

  :) it was surreal... . Then a tornado whipped it's way up the beach from which a wicked witch appeared. Brightly dressed munchkins sang and danced around the patrol car and I snagged my pantyhose on my ruby slippers, so I knew all was well 

Healthy choices for me have dire consequences for me and my dependants.

I understand "thicker skin". However, the use of children as a lever is an insidious affront to their rights. I suspect my wife's issues are largely a result of being caught in the crossfire between two very messed up parents. Our kids and I endured a different kind of manipulation. Being the sole provider; about all she could could do was threaten to have me kicked out of our home. I hope your husband limits his threats to you and spares them. My kids were drawn into the drama almost from the time they could speak. Nevertheless, they grew up and one by one gave me permission (even encouragement) to leave. It has been liberating and healing to have them in my corner without them judging.

Intuitively you know you're OK thicker skin. Your interaction with the world around you validates the same.We're human... . we all have issues. Its enough that we bring our own baggage to relationships without having to carry theirs. I'm not one to give advice as I have so far been mostly unable to take my own. I don't know your situation or the hurdles for leaving. But; you have options; financially, protective and hopefully as it concerns your kids. I'm sorry, but also sympathetic over the myriad issues that leaving or forcefully confronting the PD requires. Sometimes, living in a state of compromise in that 20% place (between the 40's) is the lesser of two evils... . until life changes cause the issues to maybe become less catastrophic. Its tragic and my hearts breaks for you and every other person here laboring in isolation. This forum has been a gift and a cathartic tool for exploring my own messed up head. Its been a slow detoxic, but the "kool-aid drip" I mainlined for 25 years has been pulled. God bless.

Sincere thanks rj.

My situation is not good. We never married, as he was too concerned about the financial implications if we separated. After 22 years, I think it's too one sided. My place is to pay for the children, luxuries and what I'd term as the flushables. He owns everything and won't write a will. I feel like a bit part in my own life.

We built a house and business together, where I learned building trades and worked like a navvi. It wasn't good enough. He said I didn't contribute, called me lazy and told me to leave if I didn't like it.

He threatens me, my family and we live with only his siblings as neighbours. They all fight, over money and land. It's ugly.

I've stopped doing my wifey duties, since he told me that we don't have a future and made it clear that he's been playing me for years because he wants the children. I find it hard to invest in my own demise, a relationship that serves only him, or knock myself out for a home that I'm regularly thrown out of for nonsense reasons.

He is very, very upset with me for not being the wonder woman I used to be. It's a shame he chose to belittle, demean, devalue, verbally abuse, threaten and torture a petite blonde for doing nothing but all of the housework, 90% of the parenting and worked full time in the construction industry. He still doesn't understand what went wrong and why I stopped enabling him. I couldn't validate him.

High 5 from Dorset, Dude.

Thicker skin

My husband told me the same. He played games all these years only and only to have a child for himself! One of his girl friends years ago got pregnant from him and decided not to keep the baby and then broke up with him! I consider myself an intelligent woman but I feel sick of myself for being so naive all these years and let a psycho man to be under my skin and takes control of everything!

He's got everything, execellent career, money and most important my son. I've left with nothing. I've tried to forgive him to be able to move on but I'm full of revenge!

He's nice Pearl 

Most of the time, I don't think he actually means it, until I have a need, like my own job, friend, mind etc then he is triggered and gets nasty. We had nothing for years and he was free to go at any time, if he chose.

I'm not seeking revenge. Some security to be a full and happy being, achieving and making something of my life, whilst providing a sound foundation for my kids is my aim.

I have left him before, only to be pulled back with broken promises, begging, crying, suicide threats etc. it just doesn't make sense to me. We were together for 5 years before we had children together and the control was just the same, I just didn't see it.

You never married... . so what? 22 years and shared children establishes certain rights that can't be waived. But since you mentioned Dorset, unless your in Vermont I have no clue about British marital law. I would still expect you have similar rights as a spouse... . maybe more.

You raised a family, did 90% of the domestic duties, are a petite blond and know construction? I would have assumed you were from Texas! And, perhaps a true renaissance woman. I build/develop in the western US.

My point is, I suspect that you are entitled to far more than maybe you think.

As for the crazy family... . amazing what we might accept as "normal".

I could fight him, if I chose to, but there is no law here that recognises unmarried partners, regardless of years together or children.

That's not the point for me anyway. It's a rancid accusation, that I would have children for my own financial gain, lay down with a man or work as hard as I did, purely so that I could leave him when I wanted to cash in. Not being appreciated or valued came into the equation too. I thought we were a team, in which I felt I gave my all. I was the only woman I knew who worked like and where I did. Being told that I either did that, or I was paying my rent with sex, blew my socks off.

I did set some very clear boundaries, before we moved here. 1) no more issues around money 2) our planned wedding was still going ahead 3) if it went wrong in this unusual social setting, we retained the option to move. If none of those were agreeable to him, I would be happier and safer staying in my own home. Within 3 weeks of our arrival, I collapsed with exhaustion and an infection and he dumped me for manipulating him. Cue turmoil 

The psychiatrist has said that my independence or being legally tied to me triggers his 'traits' whatever they are.

I've been with my wife for a decade now. After we moved in together and started to learn who she really was, I quickly lost sexual attraction to her... . about a year and a half into our relationship. I didn't really understand what was happening or why I felt the way I did. I just knew I couldn't get the support I wanted/needed in our relationship. And, I hate to admit this, but I've never told a soul about this until now, I started perusing the classified ads on CraigsList and started e-mailing/IM'ing with a handful of women about the possibility of meeting up. As those conversations progressed into the possibility of reality I felt sick with myself at what I was contemplating and cut off contact. A couple months later when my wife (then live-in-girlfriend) was using my computer when I was at work one night, she started snooping through all of my e-mails and found some of those messages I forgot to delete. Needless to say, my life was a living hell for months afterward. Granted, she had every right to be upset and an expectation of an explanation. However, her BPD compounded everything to the Nth power.

A couple years later I got a job where I was working with an attractive woman I had become close with as a result of our work. I even went to her house occasionally to help tutor her daughter in math.  She had confided in me about separating from her partner and an affair she had while separated. We flirted mercilessly both on and off the clock. We often took lunches together outside of work to relieve stress and talk about our home lives. Though I wanted a physical relationship with this woman, it luckily never happened. But as you can see, a very strong emotional affair developed and though it was a nice distraction, it did nothing to improve my relationship with my wife at the time.

Two years after that I found myself trolling CraigsList again. My wife was out of town visiting family for Christmas and I had kept myself fairly busy while she was gone, not wanting idle hands to become the devil's playground. But, after a great boys' night and having video chatted with my wife, I still felt a deep void and couldn't sleep. It was the day after Christmas and I was all alone, my wife and I had just finished couple's therapy and it felt like everything was headed in the right direction with our relationship. In fact, things hadn't been better in a long time. Yet, I still had so much built up resentment and bitterness toward her, and found myself looking for comfort from other women. Even those who where complete strangers. So, there I was at 2:00 a.m. unable to sleep and bored, contemplating what to do before my wife came home later that day. I found an ad from a younger woman who seemed confident, mature, sexy, and only wanted kinky sex... . nothing more. That was all I needed to know and began chatting with her immediately after responding to her ad. I had only been intimate with older women who were interested in vanilla sex. A couple hours later I found myself in the throes of passionate sex with a completely strange, fellow bdsm-loving woman. It was utterly intoxicating and surreal. It was the best sex and most intense connection I had ever experienced with anyone. My first and only one night stand. Then the reality of what I did dawned on me and I politely kicked her out as daylight neared. I changed the sheets, cleaned the house and triple checked the entire house for any sign of an other woman. I felt beyond awful. My Catholic guilt quickly set in and I never spoke word of this to anyone.

I worry because it seems I get an inkling for a connection every couple of years and, well, that time is upon me. I hate carrying this burden around. I truly feel I cannot tell my wife because it would cause her far more damage than any good could come of it. Hell, I haven't even told my therapist who I trust more than anyone in the world and have been seeing for the last 5 years.

If anyone were to ask me for advice when it comes to cheating with a BPDw/gf I would have no idea what to tell them. Of course I believe that cheating is a sin and I repent every day for what I have done. I am wrong; plain and simple. Though staying faithful and devout to someone who can never truly give you what you need or even provide empathy I feel borders on sin as well. Either way, you aren't being true to thy self. There are no good answers.

ATlandon

It seems like all of us you took your marriage so seriously!

Just daydreaming. My BPD wife also has pretty severe depression, and so I worry about how she might respond if she found out. That has stopped me.

But I think about it, about being with someone and laughing and not worrying about my words being misrepresented. About lightness.

It's not so much about the sex, it's about imagining that weight being lifted.

The desire for an emotional connection is really strong. Our social circle has greatly diminished over the years. The friends I carried with me into our relationship are mostly gone. Female friends have been a hard sell, as my wife is very suspect. She believes it is OK for her to have guy friends, but for a man to have women friends means the guy is on the prowl. She has accused me several times in the past. I have never had an affair, though I have several times had a lunch date with a female friends without disclosing it. Sounds pathetic to write it.

Just lonely.

Jadecat

Can I ask you why opinion of a crazy woman is important to you? It's just out of curiosity because it's really strange how you men see these BPD relationships and participitate in their sick games?

Well, because we are married and have children. The game of always having to clear another hurdle to prove my love/worthiness to a BPD mate has left me feeling at least partly responsible - and pretty flawed. Over and over I am told my communication methods are lacking, that I must not really like her, that I need to be more like her when she is feeling up, that I weigh her down at those times.

Again, I have to confess the primary thing keeping me from acting is a fear of how she would react. She has been hospitalized a number of times for suicidal thoughts.

Jadedcat.

Your story is so similar I could have written the above. The additional complications of long term relationship with someone having self destructive tendencies can be a cause for crushing despair. We allow it to reinforce the FOG to the point that we despair of ever saving ourselves. My wife has attempted suicide, accuses me of relationships with every woman I ever knew, has caused us to withdraw from social friends to the point we've mostly isolated ourselves. Our adult kids acknowledge she will likely kill herself if I left. She's a near shut-in and has not worked in years. She kept male friends mostly through e-mail communication and I allowed it almost hoping it would be my final way out. Six months ago she had an emotional affair with a pilot that turned sexual via Skype from 8,000 miles away. She still blames me for it. Don't let anyone tell you they are not your problem. My wife is in therapy now. Her issues are compounded by chronic medical issues that can cause near dementia/psychosis.

Nevertheless, you owe it to yourself to get help (I've done therapy) to develop better coping skills, rebuild your self-worth, and, to move her to confront the demon. For me its about building a case (and maybe for others) that I honestly did my absolute best to help my wife. I will always love her, but I cannot save her and often wonder if I can save myself.

"What if" daydreaming can be a tremendous source of despair, but also a catalyst for changing things.

I am devoted to my wife, but for the first time in 30 years I'm struggling to distance myself from someone that is gently opening a door to closer friendship. Its especially hard since we a professional working relationship. The immediate consequences an unwinding of my marriage would bring to anyone's life are an incredibly strong deterrent. Its complicated no matter what we do... . but we can get through it. Start with therapy and stay engaged here bro.

"Probably the most heartbreaking aspect of my practice, is hearing from hard-working family men who are married to borderline disordered females. These fellows have taken their wedding vows seriously, and it's never occurred to them to have affairs or leave their marriages--despite of how much neglect or abuse they've suffered."

Shari scheiber M.A.

I have carefully read every post and normally don't reply however feel the need to jump into this thread. I have been married for 31 yrs to a uBPDw. I have been in and out of therapy for five or six years including couples therapy. I, like others, gave in to the trap of having a female show interest in and care for me. The affair didn't include intercourse as when that time came I simply couldn't go through with it. It was at the least an emotional affair and an escape for me if you will.

When her husband called my wife all hell broke loose. I can't explain how much shame and guilt I still have- this was three years ago. She directly involved my two children who were adults at the time. I was painted the darkest shade of black imaginable- and should have been. I think at the time that I believed two things. First that another female giving me attention would help me. Second that if I got caught she would kick me out- neither was true. I was relentlessly beaten emotionally, more than usual.

I am still in the relationship. I do love her and every day is a constant stuggle to meet her needs and expectations. Some days I don't know who I am and some days I know exactly who she is. I would never cheat again as I don't believe I would survive. Of course there are days that I don't think I will survive at all.

I have a demanding job in public service. She has no empathy for me at all. She is not loving. Intimacy is like taking out the trash. She is never emotionally invested. Guilt, shame, blaming is her weapon. Not a week, and usually not a day, goes by that I am not reminded of what I did by her. It is a way to keep me beaten down. When we were in couples therapy I hinted and demonstrated to our therapist what was happening. Either he didn't understand BPD, didn't believe me, or discounted her behavior as there was no action nor progress.

I told myself many years ago that my commitment was to the marriage. I vowed I would turn over every rock to save what I have worked so hard to build. I now believe I have done this. There are no other therapy options, angles or ideas for making things better. The harsh reality is very different from leaving, at least to me. I hope that someday I will gather the strength to save myself.

Thank you to each of you who had the courage to post in this thread. A subject like this is difficult to discuss- I am not justifying what I did. The discussion helped me a lot and hopefully it helped others.

Misterfire17

I do really hope one day before you lose yourself come out of this death trap relationship. I can't discuss what I've been through but I asked my psychiatrist last night " why after so many years people like us still keep carrying on. He said " because there is no self esteem left and people suffer from identity crises and even sometimes some non borderlines develop mental illness themselves and would be too late for them". All non borderlines who involve in a long term relationship with a borderline have passive avoident personalities. Infact if we didn't have this trait we wouldn't involve with them for a long time.

I couple of times mentioned in my posts that we are not in a marriage but nobody asked why we are not in a marriage?

All non borderlines think they are mentally ill because they rage or whatever abnormalities they have been witnessing!

The fact that you didn't engage in sex with the other woman will never matter. And, I understand your inability to complete the act with another woman. The real intimacy of simple connection with another human being without fear is the real draw. Simple "normal" would be nirvana.

I suspect that she's incapable of rationalizing her contribution to your decision to engage with another woman. I also suspect that you gave her the best thing she could have hope for when you were discovered. Because, now she has you exactly where she wants and can torment you mercilessly for the rest of your days.

I'm blamed by my BPDw as the cause for her emotional/sexual affair. As a result she now trusts me less than ever. Does it make sense to be punished for their transgressions? Makes perfect sense. She rationalizes that I now have the excuse I always wanted to begin womanizing. I'm not capable of it; but, neither will I slam the door on safe friendship that could evolve into something more a year or ten from now. Is there such a thing as safe friendship? Of course; she trained me well to measure and parse my every word and action to never project an offense or misleading intention. Besides, I could never burden someone else with the chaos that unwinding 30 years with her might cause.

I expect that you were never hard wired to cheat on your wife. I believe that remaining faithful and doing your best to eliminate the placeholders for her contempt and rage is a noble path. You won't succeed, but you will know that you did your best. Hope for the best, plan for the worst. You also have to shut down the daily punishment for the inappropriate relationship. Truth is, the other woman's husband may be the only victim that deserves an apology. She won't acknowledge her part; and, likely won't accept a 1,000 apologies or your love and and actual devotion over another 30 years.

My two cents; about all you can do is what many of us hate most; push back with equal intensity that you're not going to replay the past and be beaten up any more. Its about boundaries... . they cannot exist within them. You have to push back, exit or endure the continuing darkness. You've done your time, paid penance. When the extinction burst comes; you might push back more (without cruelty). The truth won't matter, but it might be cathartic for you to finally get it off your chest. It takes commitment and stamina to do what we have trained ourselves never to do. In our case, it sometimes exhausts her rage faster. If she hints of sexual desires or allegations on my part I launch into a dysregulated appearing extinction burst of my own. Its my way of saying "come with your sword drawn, cause I'm willing to fight this one to the death". It ain't me and it ain't pretty but its working for some situations. She'll still troll for the offense; then try to move to an easier target when I push back (like say; a girl I apparently flirted with 29-yrs ago). But; I focus my responses only on the original offense dragging her back to it over and over and over and over and over.

I know... . the only way to win the game is not to play. Sometimes preserving one's sanity requires pressing on despite certainty of loss.

Most nons live with constant reminders on how life can get ugly if they cross their BPD partner. They are not living in a delusional world. This is a great deterrent for what will happen if they do get busted, which is highly likely given the paranoia levels. So even if the non partner probably has more reason to day dream about it more than regular folks, the risk is too great and the consequences are all too real.

Most normal folks involved in affairs will delude themselves of the consequences.

i would say the desire is high, but the incidence is low

The occurrence may be low.  But when it happens all hell breaks loose.

Thanks Pearl and RJ- I appreciate the response and support. I am extremely loyal and committed and in most cases my largest fault is that I don't know when to quit. RJ's advice sounds good and I will pursue the disregulated push back as this has somewhat worked in the past. Good luck to all.