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I think that the NPD/BPD partners exercise projections and unfounded attacks just so they can use them to control their partners.  When they project and apply their tactics, they are forcing their reality onto their partner and the partner has no choice but to go along with their false reality and often times, this is harmful to the partner but not to the NPD/BPD doing it.  My wife is a NPD and I started to think if we are giving the NPD/BPD a free pass just to call it an "disorder".  I really think if society will couple "real consequences" to their "disregulated behaviors", then they will stop exercise their bad behaviors.  I think when they keep doing these really harmful stuff to others, because there are no real consequences to themselves, they game the system and use their bad behaviors to get what they want and getting their way without having to make any healthy compromises in relationships.  Essentially, NPD/BPDs are practicing a form of emotional abuse and at times can manifest into physical abuse.  They also have the audacity to think they are smarter then the system and will try to game it in order to use it to control others.  I started to see that NPD/BPD don't have a disorder, rather, they are willingly exercising their attacks, lies, manipulations on others because they know they can get away with it, meanwhile succeeding what they intended to do.  In a social setting, this is a form of dominance at any cost.  Part of this trickery is to project and deflect behaviors and actions that they are responsible of and blame it on others.  After suffering from a wife who is a NPD for years, coupled with my observation and having read stuff on this, I started to think this is by choice and not sometype of uncontrollable disorder that they are suffering from.  I like to know everyone's thoughts on this.

I agree. It is true in my case. She is trying to destroy me. She is very smart, that's why I married her. But, mental illness isn't an excuse to behave badly. My lawyer called her a predator. They need to be held accountable.

I am sorry to learn that we are in a similar situation.  I avoid using lawyers because dealing with NPD or BPD, this can potentially bankrupt us.  Ever since I learned about my wife has NPD like behaviors, i started to observe and read about it.  I realize that she use her disregulated behaviors tacticfuly to alienate my side of family from me and my kids.  To make the matter worst, my mother in law and her when get together is like NDP in exponential mode, I would just shut down and think this must be what hell like.  Still, I had to maintain interaction, otherwise she may start to act up.  simply put, the controls she is exerting is purely abusive.  I notice many NDP / BPD victims accept that NDP/BPD is a mental illness that has no real solutions.  But I view this kind of abuse is not only unacceptable, but could lead to many horrible consequences.  Let's face it, criminals are not "normal" and that is why they commit crimes.  Why are we letting NDP / BPD aggressors getting a free pass is probably because we don't know enough.  If now we are criminalizing bullies at school, NPDs engages in cornering unassuming love one into a corner and tare him or her apart, this is worst then bullying.  I guess, I am interested in quantifying this problem so we can fairly hold them responsible and educate all involved.  Especially when they manipulate the law enforcement and the system to their advantage.  The problem for many men is that generally, law enforcement is on the women side. Seems Lots work still need to be done.

The majority of people with BPD/NPD are not diagnosed and not acknowledged as having a disorder. They are subject to the same rules and punishments as the rest of society. The consequence of this is usually to make matters worse. Hence a large percentage of prison inmates are there simply because they have these disorders which were ignored, and rather than treatment they were written off and spiraled into further antisocial behaviors.

Simply applying the stick as a method of treatment is archaic and inappropriate.

As far as manipulating and controlling behavior goes there is a sliding scale of accountability to this. Some it is as you say, particularly more so in NPB, in others it is more a consequence of desperate avoidance, with the effects on others simply being collateral.

BPD is a horrible disorder, it is hard to make someone better, but far too easy to make them worse by trying to shoehorn them in to being normal.

My wife was getting treatment since her SI last February. IOP for six months and now group therapy twice a week (for PTSD, as she claims she is no PD). She has gotten progressively worse and more vindictive. She is also on a psychotropic med cocktail that turns her into a zombie. She calculated her revenge on me for several months prior to leaving to make it as painful and expensive as possible for me. She knows how to game the system. She had practice with numerous men before me and after she used me for all she could, I became nothing more than the next target for her misandry. Despite what I read about BPD getting better, most professionals I have spoken to say the odds are very slim.

Hi Oblivion and Pou,

You both sound worn out and angry, but I'm gonna have to go with Waverider on this issue.

BPD is a horrible disorder; and it is a recognised disorder.  It robs the sufferers of their sanity, happiness, self respect, health, loved ones and often their liberty.  I know my pwBPD does not choose to be the way he is and I know that he suffers, for himself and for the pain he's inflicted on others.  I also know that he gains no benefit from suffering with this condition.

I think what we can do is to take care of ourselves, find a way to stop being a victim and detach from the process of the disorder in a healthy way.  We can be as much a part of the problem as we are the victim of it... . if we focus all our attention on the pwBPD (or other condition) then we neatly avoid having to look at ourselves and having to make changes to ourselves.


Jane

I have been in therapy since May and taking group DBT for my issues. My T has been very helpful in helping me understand what happened. The FOG is lifting now I see the dynamics of it all. It is just her desire to see me suffer more during this divorce that worries me. Thanks!

It certainly would be ideal if we could keep our heads above all of that stuff, but it isn't always possible, I know, I give in to it myself often enough Oblivion... .

Sorry if I sounded critical. I was mostly saying it to reinforce it for myself; I do know that there are many times that I have to stop myself going down the road of hating my pwBPD because I can't get my head round how anyone can say 'I love you' so often and yet treat me so appallingly in the next instant!  It is hard... . and I can easily forget that he is sick.

Sounds as if you're doing all the right things... . and going through a divorce is horrible.

Stay strong

Jane

Oblivian

You love somebody for her heart and her head. A borderline's head works against you because you are her opponent and her heart is only and only wants to be loved and cared for which is nothing to do with you.

Most borderlines are exceptionally bright!

i have to weigh in on this. i have been married/ with my uBPDh for 13 years now. and understand the frustration, pain, anger, all of it. i have felt it too and still struggle with it. i am going to speak to MY experience and opinions and i certainly respect yours Pou. i can feel how frustrated you are - i been there too, and will return there soon i'm sure 

First, i strongly suggest that you read the book "overcoming Borderline Personality Disorder - A Family Guide For Healing and Change" by Valerie Porr.  I had read a variety of studies  before, but no other book brings them all together like this - study after study shows that there are real measurable differences in the brain structure (in size, neural pathways, etc) and neurobiochemistry of people with BPD. The research clearly demonstrates that BPD is not exclusively environmental, and is at least in part, biologic in origin.

For someone to "manipulate" implies forethought and intent. ie. consciously thinking "I am going to threaten to take the kids away from him so he'll do what I want." The reality is - the threat IS a manipulation, because she does not mean it and is just trying to frighten you into falling in line. So you feel manipulated and her action appear manipulative. HOWEVER, one piece of the puzzle is missing. There was no forethought. She did not think through that idea, nor has she ever. It is an autonomic response - a knee jerk reaction to her intense fears, emptiness and paranoia. Then how come she does it again and again and seems so good at it?, we might ask. Simple: positive reinforcement. You gave in one time or two times or ten times, and it got the response she was after, so now it is another coping mechanism in the arsenal and she will continue to employ it at will, regardless of your feelings or requests. Essentially it is the difference between murder and manslaughter. In one case the guilty party spent weeks thinking about carrying out a violent act, where he might hide the body, and then followed through. In another case the guilty party was driving drunk and hit a pedestrian. the result is still the same: someone is dead. But the actions that brought this about were different. The drunk driver did not get into his car that night and say "Hmmm... . I feel like killing someone tonight." the actions were irresponsible, selfish, and dangerous and no doubt he bears blame. and so does your spouse... . but really, not much more blame than a 3 yr old throwing a tantrum.

Here's is what I know from my own situation. My husband's treatment of me and behavior towards me have been beyond abhorrent. I have suffered emotionally, mentally and sexually because of his "manipulation", abuse, and neglect. I have been made to feel like everything wrong in the world, with him, with us is all my fault. I have been isolated and victimized and terrorized. But when I was finally (through the help of SSRIs, which treat his concurrent depression and take the edges of his emotional sensitivity) able to bring this disorder to his attention... . and was allowed time to walk him through the relationship and show him what he's done to me - the shame that enveloped him was unbelievable. When he faced the disorder, and it's root feeling of abandonment fears, shame, and personal emptiness, he confirmed that that is exactly how he feels and how he has always felt. He has accepted that his "reality" is often twisted and not a reflection of objective reality. This has been terribly frightening. Try to imagine waking up one day and someone telling you that what you have been thinking, feeling and experiencing is twisted... . and not logical or "right". it's horrifying. i am realistic about his chances of sticking with therapy and improving - very slim. but i have had a small window with him where he was willing, and i will treasure this time no matter what happens to us.

These people are SICK. they may be willful and unwilling to get help, but i know for sure that 13 years ago he did not stand in the mirror and say "i am going to find a great woman, destroy her self esteem, make her question her own sanity, and leave her feeling like a frightened worthless piece of garbage."

the problem with this CHRONIC illness (they can improve their behavior and thought problems, but will never be like you and i) is that unlike other chronic illnesses like MS or diabetes, their symptoms cause them to treat others like s*&t. so it feels impossible to stand by them, even if you feel guilty leaving a sick person. IF your pwBPD can admit they have a problem and commit to behavior therapy and SSRIs if they are appropriate in the situation, and you are willing to "manage" them, and be more like a parent then a spouse, it can work long term. if you are not willing to walk that road with them, then other arrangements need to be made. you are not God. you cannot make them well with your love, tolerance or patience. YOUR job is to take care of you, and if this relationship conflicts too seriously with that, then it will have to end.  folie

Seneca

I am agree with you to some degree. I really tried to stay and help my husband but even with years of therapy, only some improvements will result. My question is how you do look after your mental health?

This is a tough question.  My dBPDgf certainly abuses, manipulates, and uses her emotions to get her way.  I'm certain it has doomed most of her past relationships with dating partners, friends, co-workers, and family.  From the way she talks she knows she does this, but she feels tremendous shame and hurt over it, yet can't stop herself.  She admits to this behavior at times, but can't quite get to that last little bit where she can see her behaviors as causing all her anguish and change those behaviors. 

Of course people with BPD or NPD need to be held accountable for their behaviors just like everyone else, and the personality disorder should NOT be used as an excuse for hurtful behavior.   But, holding them accountable will not make them "learn their lesson", in my experience it seems like holding them accountable just makes them feel MORE justified in their behavior.  Example:

A woman with BPD dates a man.  The relationship starts off great, but after a few months the man begins feeling manipulated by her behaviors, and starts withdrawing.  The pwBPD then senses the withdrawal, fears the loss of the relationship, and manipulates more.  Eventually, the man feels trapped, and breaks if off, and is forced to go no contact.  Emotionally healthy people would examine that perhaps their behavior doomed the relationship, or will at least accept that breakups happen.  The pwBPD interprets it differently.  She feels like she was betrayed and led on by a man who promised to love her, she feels abandoned, claims she was "dumped" and claims the guy was selfish.  She then learns that man can't be trusted, and thinks she needs to manipulate more in order to get what she wants in life. 

I know that is the way my dBPDgf operates - I've never met or talked to one of her exes, but from the way she has treated me and the way she describes the relationships, I can guarantee the above situation happened over and over again.

I don't know what the answer is here.  I am pretty sure my girlfriend does not consciously manipulate.  I think she can't control herself because she can't stop her racing thoughts in a constructive way, and she knows no other way to get what she wants in life.  So, even though she says she is worried about manipulating me by wanting to take me to jewelry stores, she can't stop dwelling on us not being officially engaged, and the only way she knows to calm her thoughts is to manipulate me into taking action.

Just remember - you can do what you want with your life.  And if you decide to end a relationship or hold a pwBPD accountable, your choice is respected.  Just be careful in expecting a pwBPD to change or better themselves if he or she is shown consequences.  It doesn't happen.  My girlfriend has been shown consequences time and time again by losing jobs, boyfriends and money, and STILL blames all that on others.  She just can't quite understand that she is losing what she wants in life by being mean and disrespectful to people.

This is exactly my experience too. The 'manipulations" are simply the result of single minded self serving impulsive survival behaviors with no empathy for the collateral damage caused. Even when abuse was hurled it became clear even though it was targeted at someone, it had its origins in pushing away blame from themselves. Hence once they felt clear of blame and the need to defend, everything was rosy again. It wasn't really about the other person, nor could they empathize with the lingering hurt left behind.

Reinforcement of the bad behavior and teaching them to repeat it as a survival skill is right to. "I got out of this by doing that"... put that one in the standard response arsenal. Repeatedly hitting your triggers is a way of getting you off theirs. Its a distraction.

By using everything I have learned here i am subject to virtually no "outbursts" of dysregulated conflict anymore, as they dont work. The BPD thought processes and self serving blame shifting is still there so she is not repaired, simply the RS is better managed.

Most pwBPD dont have the regulation skills to be in control of their own lives, let alone anyone elses. It is more their perceived fear of being controlled by others they fear, so they strike first as a defensive measure. Kill or be killed mentality if you like.

Many are simply not that concerned enough about your life to want to control it, but they can destroy your ability to firstly control them, and as a consequence if you are not strong enough your ability to control anything, including your own life.

This why the path to recovery is to regain belief and control of your own life first and foremost, whilst avoiding the perception of threat to them which is their motivater

I want to understand this waverider, how to behave so that there are no outbursts? For both our sakes.

What can I do?  What should I have done last night?  Did I make it worse by saying no to him?  I didn't want to see him or sleep with him and felt brave enough to act on that for a change.

Copied from earlier post... .

'Last night I had text messages asking for a cuddle.  I didn't want to see him because I was feeling so upset about the latest abusive bombardment.  He seemed to have forgotten that he said it was over and that he didn't love me and that he never wanted to see me again, etc.  [I didn't respond or retaliate then, just told him I was switching off my phone]

When his message came, I didn't want to see him and whereas usually I would have done and pretended it was ok so that he would be calmer I just replied that I wanted to be alone and didn't want to risk either of us getting upset. [should I have said that I was still upset?] He had asked me to meet him for lunch today anyway, when he would be sober, which I preferred.  He is getting drunk every evening at the moment and often staggers up to my flat unannounced and sits and cries for a bit then leaves.

I think he is realising that I'm detaching.

So at about 10.45 he turned up, drunk.  I let him in and gave him some leftover food heated up and he sat and told me about his day.  Then he got up, hugged me and left.  As he was going he started to get tearful and told me that he is sorry.  I let him go, not doing my usual persuading him to stay routine because I'm lonely and scared and miss being held by him.

At about 11.45 he texted again asking me if he could come and sleep with me (he lives very close by) and I said no, that I was tired and would see him tomorrow.  I didn't want him to come back and found the courage to say no.  I got the reply back that I am a selfish bhit and that this is the last nail in the coffin... .   '

I want to do what is right for me but also try to help him and salvage the r/s if possible?

Help!

It takes a long time and potentially a lot of drama for the tools and advice on this  board to have a permanent effect.

The best advice, as you practice them, is to know what YOU really want, what is really important to you, being CONSISTENT, and even be prepared to loose the RS if you want to achieve change.

Do not attempt to do anything while your partner is drunk, this ALWAYS makes things worse and validates drinking as a coping mechanism.

There are no appropriate fix all statements or responses that once said will fix everything. It is the culmination of consistent behavior by you that will eventually teach them different ways to treat you, and they can be stubborn slow learners.

Do not worry if you do, or say, completely the 'wrong" thing in any instance. It is the consistent average that matters.

If in doubt disengage. Less is more.

The copied post sounds just about right. Don't sweat the details. His response is just automatic denial of anything being his fault, and is just a superficial statement. It is still abuse however, you need to apply a boundary (eg refuse to communicate with him for X period, your choice).

You can only apply your boundaries to protect you from this behavior, you can't make him change and you can't make the RS succeed. By consistently protecting yourself it reduces your chances of making it worse, and thus your best odds of a favorable outcome.

Either way there will still be rocky times before major progress occurs. It takes a change in his outlook to be outburst free, that takes an evolution of the RS, and for some it may never be possible, but you are on the right path. It takes courage to make these changes.

Thank you Waverider, that really helps.

Just one question.  When you say ':)o not attempt to do anything while your partner is drunk', how do you think it would be best to not do anything?  When he comes to the door should I tell him he can't come in?   It's what I want to do, I just let him in because I feel sorry for him and guilty and worried.  I don't feel physically threatened by him.  I suppose it could be enabling and as you say, validating drinking, if I let him stay on the sofa?  He left of his own accord last night because he was trying to manipulate me into feeling guilty I think.

I saw him today for lunch and we didn't refer to last night.  Oh that English stiff upper lip!  I was ok about seeing him and he was a little surprised that I turned up.  I think it was ok that I did because I'm not about punishing him, just disengaging when I feel uncomfortable and need to protect myself.  If he tries again tonight though I will say no. 

I want to find the right moment to set some boundaries out for him, so that he knows what I'm about and can see me keeping to them.  I hope I'll know when the time is right.


Thanks again

Jane  :)

No you don't let him in when drunk. Not because of fear of violence but because it is harder to enforce your boundaries and very unlikely that he will abide by them, and and any reactionary attitude will be exaggerated. Alcohol increases self pity and eliminates whatever empathy he is capable of.


Boundaries do not need to be declared upfront like an agreed contract. That in itself becomes a trigger. They are best introduced as actions as and when required. They then become self explanatory. If you present them before hand you will be negotiated, and you will compromise. You will likely be pressurized to Justify, Argue, Defend and Explain (JADE). This is less likely in the moment when their importance is more unequivocal to you and you become more determined. Yes it feels like ambushing them, but it is more effective.

Just make sure you think them through in advance, and keep them basic and simple so there are less loopholes and simple to apply, don't bandwagon smaller issues onto the back of important ones. You don't want to be winging it in the moment either they are better at it than you. Your empathy and their lack of will cause you to crumble. The negotation dice are loaded.

Thanks... . that makes a lot of sense.

He did come to my door again last night, drunk, and I let him in (hadn't read your reply at that point).  However I had no intention of letting him stay for long.

He sat for a while saying nothing and seeming to be uncomfortable and sorry for himself, probably because I wasn't saying much or trying to rescue him.  He got up to leave while I was in the bathroom and barely spoke before walking out.  He senses I'm changing I think.  I'm not desperately trying to carry us both, or pleading with him to stay and not to abandon me... . just letting him go.

I'm treading water a bit at the moment too, partly because I'm unsure of what to do and partly because I'm so exhausted that I can't cope with any more waves.  What I am doing though is acting on my feelings a bit more, as you said, being aware of what I want, but also avoiding conflict.  We've hardly spent any time together for almost a week now and it feels peaceful.  Although when he knocks on the door I get that awful stress/anxiety feeling. 

I feel quite gloomy about our chances of working it out.  I don't know how much I can change, let alone whether he can... . Also, kind of anxious about his state of mind and what he might do.  It was this time of year when my mother killed herself and I can't quite shake off the feeling of dread around all of this.

We are seeing a therapist on Friday and I'm hoping that will help to clarify things.  We may be able to communicate better with someone there to keep things civilised. 

In the meantime, if he comes to my door again tonight and is drunk [I hope] I will turn him away, though I'm uncertain how I will do that or what I will say,     but I'm sure I'll think of something... .  

Thanks for your help I really appreciate it.

Jane

I am glad to see an active discussion over this subject line about NPD/BPD and control.  Thanks to everyone contributed on this subject.  I like to simplify my experience, because I tried very very very hard to see NPD/BPD as a disorder and use empathy to figure this out.  Lucky me that I know more then one NPD/BPD and I can guarantee you that as long as your love one is not a NPD or BPD, whoever around you that is, can not really hurt you.  Because you are much emotionally vested and at the end of the day, you go home separately.  However, if your love one is a NPD/BPD, then you are in a world of hurt.  Ok, I consider myself a deep thinker and kind can back it up with an advanced degree …. so I am somewhat qualified to do pretty good analysis through first person observations.  No matter, how I try so hard to see it as a disease, I realize it is not.  The books that I read tells me that it is a disorder, but I beg to differ.  I think the problem is this … NPD/BPD people are smart ... they are very very smart.  So they pick their victims very carefully … they want to control … maliciously … over another person, in a sadistic way.  So they pick their prey and they will never ever be remorseful for what they have done to you.  They know how to get rid of their guilt by making a false reality turning it upside down, just so they can justify in their head to use unfounded attacks to control you.  If they are unable to control you with their tactics, they will unleash more vicious tactics until they have you played like a hand puppet.  I think that human beings at some level, want to have controls over themselves, their environment, and to the people who are close to them … but what NPD/BPDs don't understand is that there is a "line" that one should never cross … once that line is crossed, lots of bad things can happen.  NPD/BPD use calculated manipulation methods (I read it on one of the posts saying that they are not calculated, in my experiences, that can not be more different) to insert control.  Lots of times, leaving the victim dumbfounded … no idea what happened and why would anyone do that to someone who loves them so much and have done so much for the NPD/BPDs.  Perhaps, one can write it off as some disorder … but in reality (my opinion), NPD/BPDs are extremely smart people who pick their targets carefully and to hurt without remorse … so if you don't think this premeditated, then I don't know what is. 

So are you saying that people with NPD/BPD are so clever and smart that they go through extreme measures so that can live permanently in a world of obsession, insecurity, chaos, endless failure, depression, constant abandoment, self harm, endless conflict and very high levels of suicide.

You believe their thinking is in perfect order?

Cleverness has nothing to do with personality disorders, it can be found in otherwise brilliant minds.

Neither does it have anything to do with whether they are at essence a good or bad person, though it can make them more bitter.

We all know multiple persons with BPD & NPD along with other PDs, the majority of which we are oblivious they have these disorders as they are hidden from all except those close to them. In fact there will be members on this site who have it to a certain degree, some are aware of it, and others are not. It is everywhere and very common.

Pou - I agree that BPD and NPD want to control their environment (and that means us).  The way I have come to understand it and think about it is that they are so internally chaotic, it's much easier to control (or at least try) to control their environment rather than control their emotions.  I know from experience with my dBPDgf that the biggest thing she fears is the future.  She constantly asks "what will happen to me?"  If there are no set plans as far as times or dates, her mind races until she gets sick.  She had a nervous breakdown and was hospitalized because she had a routine evaluation coming up at work.  She can't stand surprises.  She can't stand a get together unless she knows exactly who will be there.  It's anguish for her.  To cope, she tries to manipulate the environment so that there are no unknowns.  And that means she must manipulate those around her to jive with her internal emotions (which she has no control over).  I am 99% certain she does not intend to hurt others when she manipulates or tries to control, although when made aware of it afterwards, she doesn't always feel bad about it - she plays the victim.

A person who deliberately tries to hurt or weaken others in order to have control, and takes pleasure in it, would be a sociopath.  I see that as distinctively different than BPD.  I don't think my girlfriend goes into a relationship and thinks, "I'll consciously scream at him and make him fearful hate himself, and that way I'll get what I want.  Instead, the screaming is an involuntary action when she is not getting what she wants, and knows no other way (of which I play a role in that I cave, and she subconsciously learns that screaming works with me).  I know this is involuntary because for 38 years all people have done is leave her because of her behavior.  And she still does it.  The more people leave, the more she tries, and can't see the reason why she isn't getting what she wants.  She is miserable.  If her goal is to get what she wants, and she is deliberately manipulating to get what she wants and it isn't working, then why does she keep trying and trying?  And if she got pleasure from controlling and manipulating and hurting, why is she so unhappy right now?

This is desperate proactive defensive mechanisms at play 


Lack of empathy and owning responsibilty for consequencies of their action (it would overwhelm them if they did, again a defensive reaction)


Delusional linking of cause and effect, creating inappropriate reinforcing of behavior. This where we have to be consistent to minimize this.

Hmmmm?  Pou, I think you may be confusing NPD/BPD with Psychopathy/Sociopathy?  

Just a thought... . it's likely that the pain created by their guilt and shame can be one of the things which perpetuates the cycle of  behaviours of those with NPD/BPD, I certainly can see that in my SO, whereas a psychopath will use and manipulate others with a completely clear conscience.

Max, Waverider and Janey … I read your posts.  I apologize for not addressing each one of your replies individually.  But here is what my thoughts are after reading your posts:

I think NPD/BPD are smart and their intention to hurt the very close one to themselves is by design.  So they know that they are emotionally different than you and I.  They know that we are easy targets, because we have feelings for them and will not fight back.  I don't think they sit down each morning and plan out how to hurt their target each day, but I do think they have a general direction that they know they can push toward every day.  So combined with their smarts and persistence, they carry out their actions.  Why do i think this is controllable?  because many NPD/BPD do well at their work and they actually climb the company ladder pretty high up.  This takes tremendous discipline and skill.  So why would they only dysregulate around their targets?  I think Janey brought up the point about sociopath … honestly, I think for NPDs, there are many similar traits … but not identical.  Sociopath has disregard to everyone … but NPDs will pick their targets.  I came to the realization of my wife is a NPD for at least 3 plus years and at first, I really thought that by reading books relate to it will change how I feel and help her adjusting her ways … then I realize that she really believe in dominating in this relationship.  For her, she will do whatever it takes to seize control and get her way ... if anything deviates from what she wants ... watch out, dysregulation full blown and she will go as far as making things up to the law enforcement, even when accusing me something that never ever in my life has anyone come close to saying.  she puts up a great act and the only reason I did not expose her fully is because of our kids.  I think about collateral damages and I rather take all the heat then having my 3 innocent kids suffer.  I have decided to tough this one out for my kids …. no regrets.  My kids make me smile and this is what I choose to do.  Meanwhile, I also try to figure out why would anyone be so twisted in wanting to make love ones suffer so much and be so ambivalent to the suffering to the one who they once supposed to love?  I guess one can also ask why there were so many slave owners and why didn't people see it was wrong at the time.  I guess we are still in the dark ages in knowing what to do with the NPD/BPDs … if we continue to exec use their actions as disorder, I think we will never be able to correct them.  I don't think locking them up will work too … but I do think there are definitely sociopathic traits in them in order for them to be successful in manipulating people and the system the way that they do.  One great thing about this board is that I see good people here, perhaps that those who have NPD/BPD pick people who are similar as targets.  I wish everyone well.   

Maybe I was trying to give her the benefit of the doubt by thinking it was BPD. She probably is a psychopath.

i think this is a really good discussion. all points on both sides are valid. here are some of my observations though.

pretty much all the people saying that they're pwBPD is not aware of their manipulative controlling behaviors is still with this person, trying to work out their relationship. those who are Staying will rarely admit that the person they are with would consciously hurt them. But, the people that do feel that there is conscious manipulation are ones of us who have left or are in the process of detaching.

Pou, I think you know your own situation better than anyone else here. The well meaning posters here claiming that your ex isn't conscious of her manipulations completely glossed over the fact that you have observed her planning revenge for *months*. and the responses usually are justifications from books rather than asking you how you've come to the conclusion that your ex is conscious of what she is doing. so, if you're willing and want to share, perhaps it would help clarify how you came to your conclusions. i have specific situations that established my beliefs of conscious manipulations as well.

I'm not sure how fair it is for people who are still actively trying to stay with a pwBPD to tell someone who is leaving/detaching that their SO's actions cannot be premeditated. I know this from experience, because I left my ex of my own volition -- and in doing so I saw the worse manipulations for what they were. But only after both of us knew completely that the r/s was over was I able to see these things. Not while I was still with her. If you are still with your ex working things out, perhaps you may be blind to how conscious they are (i know i was) or perhaps they are just nicer/less aware than the SO's we dealt with.

I feel it's great to hear all the different experiences of people here, however when i first joined this site i would ask the same question that Pou posted and honestly i felt like my my own intelligence was being questioned by others who would flat out deny that my ex was aware of anything, as if they knew my situation better than me. by trusting my gut instincts i was able to see for myself how manipulative and aware she was. and these gut instincts were the same thing that revealed truths that kept me safe and avoided many other pitfalls. your situation may differ though and i fully respect this.

Pou, my advice to you would be, if you feel manipulated, then just assume that you're being manipulated. it's completely senseless to stop trusting your own feelings and to put any type of trust in the feelings of your ex above yours. her reality is Not. trust your instincts first. Then, go about verifying things and make sure you're not over-reacting (which is always a possibility). A good question to ask yourself is if you feel manipulated by other people outside of your r/s often, and if this is the case then perhaps you need to look at how you may be incorrect and need to recalibrate. but if you're not someone who feels controlled and manipulated often by others then i would say that your body is alerting you that yes, this woman, sometimes not all, is consciously trying to destroy you. whether it's conscious on her part or not, you will still prevail over time.

those of us detaching are dealing with betrayal. and we are just trying to put together the pieces when we ask if our ex's were conscious of some of their actions. this isn't just blaming or talking bad about a person with a mental disorder to make us feel better. some of us simply have done real life homework (not the stuff found in books) where we know our partners were aware of at least some of their behaviors, whether they wanted to do it or not.

for those of you who justifiably feel manipulated--i say do some homework and see if you can verify this emotion with some sort of facts. this is just truth-finding as you are really just putting yourself back together after a betrayal. you're asking the question "am i crazy or was she doing that on purpose?" << sometimes the answer is yes, and that's ok.

I think it easy to loose sight of the fact that everyone is different even those with PDs. Some people are plain nasty regardless, disorders can fuel this inherent nastiness.

My partner is low functioning BPD so is not capable of holding a job or perform many life skills to any level of success. A short term burst of impulsivity, then its gone, unfinished, she is not consistently productive in anything. Her dysregulations are more akin to a minefield that explodes when stepped upon. She does not actively seek conflict or domination. It is pure reaction to perceived attack.

There is no evil in her, just a frightened person who has dysfunctional life skills and trapped in her own delusional obsession with her own failings, which she has had reinforced for 50 years. She is scared of everything. Scared of being endlessly blamed for failings that she lacks the tools to stop. Material things, status, finances mean nothing to her. Her family on the other hand are high functioning and the opposite extreme where status is everything. I can tell they have PDs but the facade is so strong it is hard to see past it to get the full story. They exhibit traits similar to those you are alluding to.

This is not to say that the pwNPD in your life is not rotton to the core. Having a disorder does not override basic human nature it just taints it. I would not excuse Hitler just because he had a PD for example

Most of us here have had extreme exposure to one or two people with disorders then just reinforcement from the tales of others. That can color our view, especially when we are drawn to venting that seems in line with our own experiences.

Bottom line is PD is just part of a person it does not describe them as a whole human being. Generalizations are tempting but can be oversimplistic.

I stay because I know my partner is not evil. Yours maybe, and i would not have chosen to stay. That decision would have been based on the core person, not the disorder alone. Personally I think I would struggle with a pwNPD

very insightful waverider, i never thought of things in terms of high/low functioning. my ex was very high functioning... . in the sense that other people wouldn't suspect that she had a disorder unless they knew her really well. to her credit, because of how high functioning she was, she was often very kind and loving, to me and others. she is not all bad, all controlling, all manipulative. but, she did do this a few times.


i would never describe my ex as "all evil" and i also wouldn't describe her as simply NPD. NPD just doesn't fit really, whereas BPD is spot on. i think this is where our discrepancy lies -- i feel like i can say that i know my ex to be consciously manipulative (actually this is something that *she* admitted to), however this wasn't the norm for her. i think the oversimplification may be saying that if someone is consciously manipulating then they must be hard core NPD, and this is never how i felt my situation.

also, recognizing that your partner is consciously manipulative is not simply venting. for some i'm sure they can look back and say they were just venting. i don't feel this way though. again i'd just like to reiterate that many of us recognizing these traits in others aren't simply trying to place blame or vent, we are searching for the truth of the matter; we are reconstructing who we are and figuring out where we are wrong and where we are probably right.

i chose to leave my ex because of a lack of trust. i felt her 'reality' was so skewed that she was bound to cheat. and for me i think i was right, i'm glad i trusted my instincts here. but in no way do i mean to portray her as an all-evil NPD. i'd like to open others up to the possibility that some may come to the conclusion that their partners were sometimes aware of their manipulations, without them being all evil or full NPD.

in fact i tend to refer to pwBPD as a 'lazy, part time NPD'  :) mine was only NPD like once or twice a year   waverider i love discussing things with you i hope you know this. thank you for your input.

Goldymount, I think we are both getting to the fact is that it is a real mix, high/low/somewhere in between. BPD/NPD/some with a little of both. Intrinsically good people/bad people. Deliberate manipulations/desperate cover ups. It is all part of disordered thinking and it manifest differently in each, but with common themes running through.

As you say only we know are partners. All the tools and tips on this site, and elsewhere, are just a framework of things that have been found to commonly work. It is up to us to apply them as we think appropriate and see what works for us. There are no Golden fix all answers.

We should be very wary of labeling all people with Disorders as being how we perceive ours. Whether that be with hope or without hope.

Three things came to mind - 1)  My girlfriend once said that if we broke up she would do something vindictive, or at least feel like it, such as drive by my house all the time or spy on me.  2)  she once told me she was trying to get a guy she loved to ask her to marry him, so she tired to pressure him by dating other men.  That sounds to me like she was consciously trying to manipulate or hurt him.  3)  She recently told me that if she ever saw my ex girlfriend she would "punch" her.  What reason does she have to want to punch my ex?

These are the best three examples I can think of where my girlfriend has talked about deliberately getting back at someone or hurting someone.  I suppose all could be tied back to fear/abandonment, but there are killers out there who have the mindset "If I can't have him/her, nobody can.  Would that murder be motivated by fear of abandonment or a deliberate desire to hurt someone?

the two instances i can think of where i had "aha!" moments:

1) near the end i felt that my ex was prolonging arguments unnecessarily, even when i would back down from them and try and be civil. she kept seeming to try and stoke the fires even when i would leave and go to another room physically, she's come back for more and say something snide. one day i noticed she was holding her phone in her hand in a funny way. and it dawned on me--she was recording the arguments. and she was purposefully 'stalking' me because when i didn't say or do anything bad, this angered her because she didn't get the evidence she wanted that i was abusive in the recording so she would keep trying to trick me into being triggered. when i caught her, she admitted it and tried to play me arguments she had recorded from weeks before -- please try and tell me how that is not manipulation.

2) long story short: during arguments sometimes my ex would cry, shake, shrink away and act as if she were afraid of me like i was going to physically attack her. this only happened a few times after the r/s ended but we still lived together. it was nearly impossible to figure this out because i would always leave when she got like that as i never wanted to frighten her. but again--got to trust your gut instincts. one day i did trust it and figured it out. i didn't leave when she started her started her award winning performance. instead i moved past her and made sure that she was free to leave if she felt unsafe--then i told her if she was really afraid of me that she could get the hell out, but i was done leaving on her accord. she promptly shut up, stopped crying, copped a snotty attitude and finished making her cup of tea (i was washing dishes in the kitchen).

if i hadn't trusted my gut and figured out these conscious manipulations on my own i might be suffering like many here. i could have thought that i was a scary and abusive person to her... . but i'm so happy and healthy to find out this wasn't the case. i don't have to worry about that anymore.

waverider, this is why i point out manipulation to others, not as a way to vent but only as a way for us to separate the truth from the lies.

Wave, Goldy and Max and everyone  … your input are valuable and the opposing views are making this a balanced discussion. 

I am tilting to the view that I do believe NPD/BPD are capable of controlling their behaviors.  Wave, you mentioned that your SO had two broken up relationships and is a low functioning BPD, this does not mean that she is not "smart".  I know many smart people who know how to manipulate people to get what they want, they may not be very good at it, but it never stopped them from trying.  The difference is that some of NPD/BPD are better at their tricks then others, so quite a few actually do well in corporate ladder.  I think in order to climb the ladder fast, many have to kind put their conscience aside and in a very general sense, I think our capital structure favors the people with PDs.  Not always true, but it does appear to be the case.  If you are empathetic, you will have hard time climbing over someone else.  When I stopped pushing the idea that my wife has NPD and there is hope to make her better … I become "enlightened" and accepting it is what it is … and began to see that my wife made conscious decisions to be destructive toward our relationships and our family dynamics, instead desperately trying to "rescue" and "fix" something that can not be repaired, I come to accept and work around and put up as much I can in order to ensure my kids are taken care of and they get to enjoy our presence, separately or together.  So far, my wife's target is just me … I am the whipping board. 

Goldy, looks like our experiences are similar … and our views are similar too.  But I do feel most NONs probably see the way we experience it... it is just that society has already classify it as a "disorder".  My thoughts is unless we bravely let go the romantic notion that they will one day understand how bad we are hurting and miraculously one day they will start to see our view, we will never be free from the pain and suffering they inflicted on us.  I don't view the word "hope" is a good thing in a NDP/BPD relationship.  The odds are stacked against you and even you are able to get a nice pad on the back for the hell that you walked through … what does that mean?  True love prevailed?  is it really true love?  S/he made your life miserable for the 99% of your life spent together and for that one moment that she turns around, and that is good enough for you?  We worth much more than that.  I don't hate my NPD/BPD wife, I just want to manage the situation so I can survive in one piece and perhaps at the end of the day… dare I look and hopefully found some happiness.

A good subject, as this theme comes up often in reactions and posts. From my experience and insights, I agree with Waverider. I see BPD as an affliction that can touch all kinds of people, both kind- and evil hearted. And it will act out accordingly. As for my partner, I strongly believe he was not evil. He did some really awful things, but I think he is in essence a good person, but just incapable of behaving as such. Deep down he probably feels very guilty, ashamed and inadequate for being the person he is.

As for manipulation... . hmm, I’m not sure... . We always had to do things his way. But I never experienced it as a control things. More in the sense that he needs to feel comfortable and safe by doing things the way he has always done them. He always dresses the same, cooks the same way, makes love the same way... . Essentially, his way of behaving has not changed since adolescence. It’s part of his identity.

Added to that is his lack of empathy. He just doesn’t notice our wishes not even if we spell (or yell) them out and is not capable of making compromises.

The thing he does manipulate, are his own thoughts. He simply ‘forgets’ things that are unpleasant to him or are too difficult to deal with.

By the way, I had the impression that being manipulative is something else with BPD’s than with NPD’s. I’m not well informed on NPD, so I may be completely wrong, but I had the impression that for NPD’s egocentrism is the core issue of their disorder, the cause of their behaviour, while for BPD’s egocentrism is a result – namely of their inability to control their overwhelming feelings and emotions. This is why for NPD’s egocentrism is not problematic, as it comes naturally, so to speak, while many BPD’s feel guilty and ashamed of it (unless they’re of the evil hearted kind, of course). Another difference related to this is, that as feelings cloud their way of thinking, BPD’s suffer from delusions and psychotic episodes, while NPD’s are more often clear and intelligent thinkers. Which will also have a different effect on their 'manipulation skills'.

From the posts I see that there are people here having experience with both BPD and NPD: do you think this makes any sense?

Jonie, I am not saying NPD/BPDs are "evil" to everyone.  But I do believe to the NONs, their actions are "horrible" and "evil" … otherwise, how do you describe the senseless and relentless attacks and controlling ways?  I think for myself, the hardest part to reconcile about my partner's NPD behaviors are also the inconsistencies on her interactions with others and with me on daily basis.  My point was that I used to feel the same way as you do and as the books tell me how to see NPD/BPDs … see it as a disorder, try to walk around it at times and be firm and define the boundary ... and etc.  Well … didn't really work.  I felt worse about myself everyday because now I feel that I am the failure that my partner wasn't getting better.  Essentially, the book and the conventional wisdom made me take responsibility of her actions … in reality, as I have experienced this ... I realize now that it is not my responsibility to empathize and feeling obligated to fix this situation.  I am not the one who chooses to be destructive.  Some may say ... oh, BPDs don't know when they are being destructive and then proceed to make up tons of excuses for them.  I like to inform you that many many people had twisted childhood and yet not everyone turn out to be dysfunctional.  The point is that for the NONs … stop torturing yourself and feeling that you can fix it.  My advice is that we either accept that this is how they work or back out as carefully as possible.  I notice because this is a controlling issue.  If you "announce" that you are leaving or confront him or her in any unpleasant way … it will elicit a "control" response, and next thing you know your life will be made to be in hell.  Although the prefer method is not suitable for interacting with normal human beings … my advice is not to disclose your true intention but slowly fade away … it is very very hard for normal people to do.  I myself has not been remotely successful … far from it.  But I do genuinely believe that if the NONs really want to obtain happiness again, 1) you will need to first slowly detach yourself from your relationship slowly and don't worry about who is right and who is wrong, focusing on wanting your own happiness; 2) slowly fade from your relationship by creating small distance on daily basis.  And if you are lucky, someone will swoop right in and take your spot, but you have to act as if you are disappointed and fits in what his/her script calls for.  Otherwise, it will elicit his or her need to unleash tactics to "control" you again.  

Simply put, I think the manifestation of this "disorder" is really from the desire to insert unreasonable control over another human being.  :)ominating his or her life … perhaps, by doing so, they feel a sense of empowerment.  I don't think there is a need for the NONs to continue to make excuses for this person who suppose to love us, and instead they torture and manipulate us like cheap puppets?  And driving us into deep depressions, zero self worth and living in a state of fog.  Is this love?  They may not be evil to anyone else, but they are surely evil to the receiver.  If we keep making excuses for them, then we will be in a state of perpetual limbo … back and forth… and without a clear resolution, our mind can never find peace and constantly be confused and lost.  

This is a good point, but it takes a while to reach this realization. The focus is on fixing "us" and our interactions. This will have a flow on effect to the pwBPD. Some may react favorable and things will improve, other swill only react badly. As you say it is then your choice to stay or go once you have got your head back into reality.

I am lucky I have reached a position of pretty much rediscovering me and even developing further than I ever was before. I have more control and say in my own life than before including my previous RS's (It was me who had two priors, not my partner). A lot of this has been hard fought but it is now established.

Her "manipulations" are on the level of a kid who has scoffed all the cake but flat out denies it even though they have cake all over the face. Just silly little things based around fear of being blamed. Luckily there are no big issues.

Biggest complaints I have are an apparent lack of effort applied to most things, reluctant to do things out of obligation or responsibility. Avoidance issues if you like. She is quite happy to openly hand over control of everything to me, this never used to be the case.

I believe the reason she is low function is because she was the weakest link in a disordered family, so was the subject of endless invalidation and controlling ways (much as you describe) of her mother and siblings. Who in turn I believe have a fear of not being in control.

She was straight A student (due to obsessive approach to study I believe), yet now can't even plan her day effectively, no consistency in thought process whatsoever

Which brings up another question. Is the desire for control driven more by a fear of not being in control of their environment in case the internal chaos is allowed free reign?

Waveriders, I would like to comment your observations and thoughts from your last post,  … and without quoting them here again, I will try to comment on your insights. 

First of all, it is very interesting to be on this board, because I notice NONs are very intelligent.  There are many talks about how NPD/BPDs are very smart, but I think you can be very smart and being a very good person to. My definition of a very good person is simply someone who doesn't do things to hurt another human being and able to feel remorse and understood what is right and what is wrong. 

Waveriders, you mentioned that your partner came from a home full of PDs.  I found this is usually the case as well.  It is strange, but I am unable to attribute the manifestation is more due to genetics or environmental.  As right now, I think it is 80% genetics and 20% environmental.  I leave it 20% of cure rate … I guess.  Also, I think NPDs do well in society is not purely due to their intelligence, it is largely due to their false sense of confidence that is very contagious.  Most people will not appear to be confident unless they are aware that they have the ability to back it up.  NPDs are not like that, they feel that they deserve more then what they earn/given at all times, so they constantly looking for ways to climb and appear to be self confident at all time.  So in a corporate / structured environment, they thrive … and they elevate.  Of course, they also have to possess certain degree of competency to start with in order to climb.  Waveriders mentioned about your partner who is BPD and used to be an A student and now seem to be a low functioning BPD.  I also have encountered people like that who are not close to me … but I know enough to see her as a BPD.  I think this downward spiral has to do with this BPD individual's ability to deal with "controlling" her internal inadequacy …. chaos churning inside.  As a friend or a family member with a healthy distance, these people are ok to deal with.  However it is very tough on their spouses or partners.  Constant blame and drama … they find ways to control and manipulate their close ones just to regain their internal sense of control of this world.   If you should decide to leave, their world would go to hell and anything can happen.  I think this has nothing to do with characterizing BPD/NPDs as evil or not, the reality is that you being "normal", her perception is that you will "destroy" her world, so she must do anything she can in order to keep her "world" as is.  That is where the controlling behavior coming from.  NPD/BPDs don't know how to play fair.  They only care about how they feel and what they want.  They essentially NEGLECT their partners' needs and in a spousal or romantic relationship, this is essentially abuse if this were to be repeated day after day.  They also flat out refuse your emotional and physical needs as a way to gain control over you.  You need something, they won't give it to you … just so they know they have the upper hand and ignoring the meaning of what a relationship is about.  In that sense, they are also sociopath … because they do not observe or practice societal definition of relationships and they have no problem breaking their responsibilities in order to achieve what they want.  I think it is hard to be a NPD/BPD without having some sociopathic tendencies.   

Waveriders, you asked: "Which brings up another question. Is the desire for control driven more by a fear of not being in control of their environment in case the internal chaos is allowed free reign?"  I think my above comment has addressed your question, which is a hypothesis driven from my own experiences and materials that I read. 

I am a sucker for love, but all my life, I have very very hard problems in finding that.  My own life experience prior to my wife has kind enhanced my attraction for NPD/BPDs.  I just hope that as this NPD/BPD field starts to become more visible, we can start to see less of this type of problems … or will we start to see more due to some of them now have an excuse to commit bad behaviors due to the labeling of them as a "disorder"?

Pou i agree with much of what you are saying, however for me having the label "personality disorder" is a good thing. I don't see it as an excuse for this person's behavior (you can probably tell from some of my posts). I see it as a simple way to categorize behaviors. finding out about BPD and then seeing that my ex behaved pretty much exactly like others has helped me immensely. so in a way i feel categorizing this as such makes it easier for us to label and predict the behaviors of pwBPD.

i do think some use the label as an excuse and i think others do not. however i feel it's useful to have this label as it represents an understanding of what's going on. as in, through all the lies this person spins about who they really are, i now know what you are, just a pwBPD, predictable.

Goldy, I don't mean that we should not put a "name" to some like BPD/NPD … what I was saying is that when we classify it as a "disorder", it immediately becomes an excuse in the court of law for people to misbehave or for people not to claim responsibilities of their actions.  I am with you regarding being able to give this problem a name helps tremendously.  One thing that I notice that it helped me is knowing that I am not alone.