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Arn13arn made the interesting point on my other thread (about my failed attempt to seek closure with cheating lying irresponsible entitled uBPD/narc ex- can  you tell I'm still angry?  ) that BPDs may avoid closure deliberately as a means of keeping us 'in the box' they maintain for exes.

In my case, the other thread gives the gory details but despite being sprayed with hate and envy in the message I felt that I was being asked to come back, but with bells on  - he was asking for money (indirectly) through pleading poverty, demanding I 'help him' or disappear. and (I think) asking me to beg forgiveness abjectly. There can be no 'grown up' goodbye.

In contrast as I have recently learned, an emotionally stable person will say goodbye kindly and calmly regardless of hurt. It doesn't have to be done the scarring ripping BPD way- something I had forgotten these last years  . Healthy people can agree it just didn't work for one or both, shake hands and leave in peace and mutual forgiveness.

Have those on the thread felt that their exes left a sort of door open by refusing closure?

(A related topic is retention of items you left behind. Eg, I have asked ex around 20 times for my cashmere cardigan back  . I realise now I will never get it back, ever. The first time I asked (while he was with his new girlfriend, unknown to me) he tried to charge me 20 euros for the postage. This is a man who had me paying for everything down to his clothes and toothpaste for three years. Unbelievable eh. You gotta laugh or you will  :'()

there's much to comment on in here - but i have to pop out to my alanon meeting. for the moment i'd like to punch this bit, as it's what i've wept over these past months:

Hey Maxen- good on you for going to AlAnon, hope the meeting is useful and supportive. (I think I was addicted to my ex - could have done with the 12 steps back in the summer... . )

I have had a brief 4 month relationship since splitting with my ex last year. Although I ended it as I could not give the guy the love and commitment he needed, it opened my eyes to the truth that SPLITTING UP DOES NOT HAVE TO BE UGLY AND FULL OF RAGE AND HATE. It's sad, yeah. But a good person will see the value in you- as a friend or a memory or whatever. They will not either rage and cling, or rage and cut dead (only to pop up months later, often enough  ). They won't call you an abuser, selfish, a monster, throw every insult in the book at you, tell  you you ruined their life and you are nothing without them, etc, etc.

That was a shock to me.

I think that is why they don't have closure.  To leave the door open for the future.  I also believe that they are incapable of having those heart to heart talks, delusion.

I have been NC since a week before x mas.  I found my ex in an SUV x mas eve night when I was dropping santa gifts off for my son.  It was a terrible night, a terrible holiday.  I went back the next morning bc she demanded from me to be there so our "family" could be together while my son opened gifts from santa.

Wel, I showed up at 7 am at her sister's house (against some people's advice on this board), and guess what?  She wasn't there.  She slept at my replacement's house the night before.  She didn't even watch her son open x mas presents from santa when this could have been the last year he believed in santa clause.

Of course, it was my fault bc I shoed up at 7 am and not 730 am, and she couldn't sneak back into the house in time.

But what I've learned the past 4 weeks, is that after 14 years of being her cornerstone, I have NOT contacted her.  Very stupidly checked her FB and I have vowed never to do it again.  But it's killing her and I know it.  I also know, it's not about her anymore, it's about me.  Like Eminem says, "What am I gonna do with this one shot, this one moment, am I gonna seize everything I ever wanted, own it?"

Hell, yeah, dog!

Hello,

I can truly relate to your story.

The emotional roller coaster seems like it never ends.

Its like they can truly sense when you have had enough and then they start to do things they make you think, 'maybe he or she is not so bad after all', then they are o.k. for a short while, then it continuous again and goes on and on and on, like a repetitive cycle.

Until 1 day you truly say enough is enough and finally move on.

I wish you well.

Yep... . mine seems to be leaving that door open

-some gift cards for her birthday she wouldn't take on her birthday, and several times after that. Said she shouldn't have to ask for them, I should give them to her on my own. I finally just mailed them to her.

-a stray dog she found and asked me to help. This tied us together until I found a home for it. Another tie broken.

-a vase that was my Mom's that she threw at me and it broke. She took home to fix. Still there. At this point she won't give it back, says its not done. I now really don't want it back.

-constant texts about her financial situation, how I should help, and because I don't she says I don't care.

I keep thinking all of my ties to her are broken, until she finds another one.

Quite!

Disordered maybe?

Dumb? Absolutely not!

thanks dxox. it was a good meeting. i've come to think of this one as my home meeting. service was even suggested to me: nice to be included!

as to the OP: my w didn't close the door. with professional precision she left things in my lap. all she's done during and since her deceit is point the finger at me, or refuse to take decisions. she left b/c i was to blame for our sex situation; b/c i didn't like her enough; b/c i didn't think she was up to starting a family (well this might be true, what with the drinking and the spending and the dishevelment, but it's my opinion that was the problem you see, not her behaviors); more to the point here, she lied and moved straight in (literally: driving away from our house and right to the other place) but wouldn't file for divorce; she wouldn't read my emails; she said she'd go to MC with me while living with her paramour; she's 'very confused'. today i talked to my L and as of three weeks ago, 6 months after she ran, she hadn't filled out her financial statement for the divorce, even though she told me she had finished it the last time we spoke in september (NC since). and of course she refused on numerous occasions to engage with the fact of her deceit, giving me no closure.

now, i've had breakups that were mutual, or where i did it, or where she did it. these were all honest and i bear not a bit of ill will, and i hope they don't wither - just as you've had recently dxox. if i met these women i'd be happy to see them. but i've had a breakup with a narcissist, and now with a borderline wife, and these were full of rage (on both our parts, though for vastly different reasons).

my pet theory: my w (and i guess pwBPD in general) needs to feel the victim. otherwise she'd have to take responsibility, and that would be too much. i wept once in front of her after she betrayed me and she ran out of the room.

I can also relate. Going through it now and will be on 3 years on and off next month with same BPDgf.

All I can say is the door will not be closed all the way until we want it to be closed all the way.

I am not there yet.

My now ex again will probably be deported to mexico in the near future so at least the border patrol and us customs will be helping to keep the door on the border shut for me.

Mine flat refused to break up with me, even as she was packing her bags. I asked her directly what her intentions were and she screamed at me, saying I was putting 'too much pressure on her' and she 'couldn't take the stress'. She left a bunch of stuff here, though, including her Christmas presents.  She also has some stuff of mine - a camera and an iPod.

Definitely leaving the door open - she's done this before.

I managed to find the closure I needed by returning the gifts and using that money to buy a replacement camera for the one she ended up with. I've mentally 'given' that camera to her now.

For what it's worth, I got a much nicer camera. Buying it felt symbolic, like I was physically letting go of the relationship (when I returned her Christmas gifts to the art store, I broke down and sobbed inconsolably, though - my one 'crying in public' moment over this r/s; the poor staff were standing around shuffling their feet, averting their eyes).

Sometimes I wish I had some kind of formal 'closure' but I know I won't get that from her. I'm not sure it's something she can do for me. I'm giving it to myself and carrying on, taking care of me.

I said this over and over again in my journal, when things were really bad: "I just keep doing my best."

I think I got a little of this from my ex. As she was ending it, she said maybe we'll have another kid in a year or two. WHAT? Lol

A couple of weeks ago, she said she wants to be friends, business partners, co-conspirators, etc. (that all sounded like crazy nonsense to me). Why would I want to be in business with someone who screws me over every chance they get? The co-conspirators thing doesn't even make any sense. Why would I commit a crime with her? Lol. Why would I want to be friends with someone who puts my life into turmoil?

A huge thing I've learned since I became interested in BPD is to look at what they do instead of listening to what they say. They'll say whatever. Their actions are what's important. This woman has treated me like a 2nd class citizen since she left. She can rot for all I care. Her days of being buddies with Santa are over.

I don't think my ex consciously left the door open by refusing closure. She fled to protect her ego. It's an attachment disorder. I think when  the next fantasy fails, she may try to see if the door is opened.

So you're saying that santa knows who's been naughty and who's been nice?  

Seems like most of us have experienced dysfunctional coping of abandonment fears by our pwBPD... .

LOL. Yeah. She's definitely getting low-grade coal this year.

My thinking and her thinking were so different that I'm not sure What the heck she was thinking. The biggest mistake I made was sticking around after the fat lady sang. I would like to say it was all just part of the deal but I feel it was a mistake. Sticking around after it was over was what caused deeper injury to my well being. Just more codependent behavior. If I had one hair on my butt I would have slammed that door in her face right then and there and gave her the middle finger.

I'm lucky I dodged that bullet. My presence triggers mine. She avoids me.

Ya know, I used to think it was somewhat trivial that there has never been a "goodbye" spoken between us. At 50, I've had more than my fair share of relationships, but can't think of one previous to this that 'ended' so oddly... . not to mention four times. So detached and nonchalant, as if nothing more was going on than running out for an hour errand. And always an undercurrent assumption on her part that the door to her labyrinth may be open again one day.

I'm a year total NC right now, but fully expect her to reappear again, like someone who left their dog out in a sub-zero blizzard and decided to let them in. This time, she'll find that rover has dug his way out under the fence and is headed for warmer climates.  *)

LMAO

:)

I left the door open in the past.

Maybe more than she did.

Now it's closed.

My exUBPDgf has not returned multiple items(expensive sweater, expensive shoes, expensive cologne, multiple shirts, pjs, toiletries). It still bothers me. What has she done with my stuff? Unknown. Almost like a final disrespect added to the mountain of lack of respect she heaped upon me in devaluation. 

'A huge thing I've learned since I became interested in BPD is to look at what they do instead of listening to what they say. They'll say whatever. Their actions are what's important. This woman has treated me like a 2nd class citizen since she left. She can rot for all I care. Her days of being buddies with Santa are over. '

Wow, Santa, you said it all. I love reading your posts btw. So much strength and certainty in them. I am not there yet, but you're an inspiration to me.


Ironmanfalls- you are so right, it is a form of disrespect combined with that toxic 'holding-on' which they do. In order to return my cardigan he would have to care about me and what I want. He also once said 'I keep these things here for you because I care for you so that you can get them back one day'. Eh?   He is in Rome and I am in London, why would I travel to Rome to get a bloody cardigan?   did I mention when I asked for it at the time he dumped me pregnant (just before then) among a load of insulting projecting texts I was asked to send 15-20 euros for its return... . all this while he was screiwing and moving in with someone else!

In that relatively small act of nastiness I really see everything about the toxicity of the relationship. It is one of the many things I think of when I weaken and miss him. I don't want a person in my life who can behave in such a weird, petty, cold, unfeeling way.

I have 2 pairs of my very nice and sane recent ex's shoes here, there is no way that I would keep them, they are his! That's normal right?   We got used to abnormal for sure.

myself 'the door is closed'

Amen! Mine too. It has been very liberating to feel that internal door bang shut forever.

Two months out and I'm ok with mine avoiding me.  I found an email from a break last February where I told her she needed help and this was not all my fault. She promised to get counceling only for me to be the only one that followed through. 

I ripped the mask off mine at the end.  She left me for someone she had been hanging out with.  I trusted her with this person and was glad she had a new friend.  I felt horribly betrayed and hurt by both of them. 

It's like this.  Do you keep a stinking can of garbage in your bed? No you toss it out.  I was in a relationship with a pile of garbage that didn't deserve my affections.  I am dating someone crazy about me, someone who wants to be a part of my life and loves that I plan special events and have a life outside us. 

There is better out there.  You need to take out the garbage.

I feel they keep things belonging to us, as an excuse to open communication at a later date (if the need arises)!

honestly i'm not either. a combination of not wanting wanting to be and her completely successful non-ending of the marriage.


thanks for reminding me: the very last thing she said before walking out was "i hope we can be friends someday." 

TheDude!

Nice to see you here! I haven't been here in almost a year.

I remember you were moving to another city and state, driving and thinking about the past.

(I had a different login name at the time).

I did NC for over 10 months and she resurfaced at the end of 2013.

"I love you!" "I miss you!" "You are the best!" "I didn't know what real sex was until I've met you!"

Funny!

Did you remain NC? What happened next?

No, I didn't.

I saw her on and off for a couple of months.

Same crap as before or even worse.

Just this time I knew better not to expect anything serious and knew how to react to her game.

But I am a bit injured now, hence back on this forum.

Bit like the old "play with fire" adage eh?

Exactly!

To be honest, I am glad that this encounter happened.

Otherwise, I'd be less experienced and would be guessing.

Now I know exactly what and how happened.

Read some of my threads and you'll understand.

I'm curious when you say even worse. Is it because you can see things in a different light happening in the r/s that you didn't see before, due to having learned about the disorder or that the idealization and devaluation phase(s) are quicker?

I found that the at the end of the r/s the gaps between the idealization and devaluation where getting shorter and shorter. Devaluation were really long periods where idealization sometimes could of last for periods of minutes, maybe hours if I was lucky.

Or is it a combination of both?

I have not been recycled. I'm split blacker than black, but I can see how her patterns and why she does what she does. I think it would be a different ballgame the second time around and that's a partial reason as to why I have no interest in going back.

I recycled with my uBPDex 3 times (after break ups lasting roughly 2-3 months).

In our case, yes, the idealization to devaluation cycled through quicker each time.

The idealizations were all about the same in their intensity, but lasted shorter time spans respectively. But each devaluation got more intense & aggressive than the previous ones, and got longer each time!

I can't say from personal experience. I have never dated the same woman after having broken up with them.

I know what my honeymoon period was like. I guess what I'm trying to say is, I don't think your going to catch lightning in a bottle twice is the best way to describe it.

That sounds painful Moonie75 when you say that the devaluation is more intense / aggressive than before and longer.

I got no closure and specifically asked for it even though I broke it off with her!  She couldn't even come close to giving it. Two weeks prior we were having dinner and I told her I was going to leave her because she had cheated. She asked me at that time if I would still see her in the future even if I remarried. Even though I didn't know about BPD I realized I was dealing with a very messed up person.

Her words after 8 years.


Moving on meant that she was confident that r/s she was having with replacement was ready to come out in the open. It's that we'll get married again bit that threw me off.

Mutt,

It is both and more.

More: I was not expecting to have a real relationship with her. I went there for two main reasons:

1) To really find out her side of the breakup and post-breakup story that took place a year ago (we all had so many questions here about closure, whether or not they miss us, what they think about us, etc).

2) To have occasional sex with someone who I practically trained to become my personal porn star (sorry, this is harsh).

Their intuition is amazing, so she immediately sensed that. But, unlike before, I stayed firm and sneaky. She couldn't do her regular guilt trips and other crap with me. She could, but she saw that it no longer worked. So she put more intensity into both, idealization and devaluation.

I also was brutally honest about my relationships with other (27) women within that NC period. She almost exploded and died when she searched through my underwear drawer and found a thong that one of the chicks left as a souvenir. She also went through my phone and saw tons of new phone numbers with female names attached to them. She did all this when I was smoking a cig downstairs or taking a shower.

In other words, she realized that she needed to put more effort in order to get me back, yet she would rage even more as a result.

Uncomfortably_Numb,

I'm understanding why these r/s are more intense because of the lack of control from the ex the second time around, and the escalation with idealization and evaluation.

I'm not being judgemental. Understanding that my ex has the capacity to distort and lie. I don't think I could get much truth from her as to what she was thinking when she left or what was going on in my absense. I can understand, curiosity.

Having said that, do you think you where sticking it to her in more ways than one? Pun intended.

:) What exactly do you mean, Bro?

Send me a PM and I'll explain.

My mission being second time around here is to answer some of the questions for those who are "freshly" heart and to deliver the "NO VICTIM" message.

The rest is very individual.

As many people say, BPDs are people and are unique. I agree. I came across two last year. But it took less than one date to figure that out.

IMHO, to us, the people who were close and have experienced the full-blown BPD beauty, they are more obvious than to a trained professional who has never gone through the "ultimate closeness".

Some of my hair turned gray and I aged prematurely just trying to be there and resolve all the problems. I had no idea about BPD.

Your correct. I don't know the pretext to your story.

I do understand the motivation above, curiosity.


This motivation is anger.

Why did you give her an exact number of how many people you slept with?

Isn't it convenient that she found women's underwear and phone numbers from conquests?

Why didn't you hide the thongs and lock the phone?




Was it revenge that motivated you?

Mutt, NO!

The only and the best revenge is to ignore HER.

Maybe worse than that - not to be with HER.

Why would I lock my phone in my own house? I've never had anyone going through my contacts.

The thongs were hidden under a pile of my underwear in a drawer.

The number? It was not about the number. It was about delivering the fact that I was not suffering here while she was "having a good time", which she wasn't. I've read enough to understand that BPD women don't really enjoy sex to full extent as normal women would. They are missing the real intimacy part.

Anger? It's here. But I treated her well, even this time around.

Better anger than self-pity.

If I were angry, I wouldn't be able to attract other women, would I?

I had anger from my FOO. That didn't stop me from attracting my ex.

What's "FOO"?

What's wrong with attracting your ex?

The question is about not being angry and in this whole ex-thingy to be able to attract other women.

Ex still has everything at my home. She left everything when she moved out 5 months ago. My bogus restraining order hearing is a week from tomorrow. I really don't care how it goes. I have an atty who is defending it yet either way I don't really care. As long as it doesnt include my son, I'm fine. So when the judge's verdict comes down, I'm just going to ask her to please order to come pick up everything. I was even nice enough to bag it ALL up for her! :)

arn131arn, good for you, Bro!

Family of Origin

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=26601.0


My FOO issues and codepency attracted me to my uBPDex. That r/s is not something I wish to repeat again.  


You are correct.  |iiii

Speaking for myself, there's more than repressed anger to the equation that I choose to work on, so I don't repeat the same mistake again.

I tent not to over think this. I've lost a lot of me during those years with her. And happy to report that I am still me in most part, except I am less sensitive and motivated. Also, have become indifferent to some things. Have become cynical too.

That I don't like.

Otherwise, I am fine with repeating my mistakes. I've done it more than once. 

To err is human. I forgive myself and I'll make mistakes again, that's being human. I saw red-flag from the get-go with her and I choose to ignore them all. I choose now to not ignore my intuition. An 8 year r/s with a PD and kids with her was a pretty big mistake. Don't get me wrong, the silver lining are my 3 beautiful kids and the gift of the borderline. Co-parenting after being painted black is extremely difficult. I'll take over-thinking hands-down anyday than having to deal with another person like her in my life.

I have to deal with her emotional fall-out w/ the kids and I'm fine with that. But, I'm confident enough in myself with the work that I have done and continue to do, it will better my chances in not falling into the rabbit hole again.  I deserve to be happy and  I don't want to be subserviant to another abusive partner.

I can honestly say, with this year-long break that I too, and I chose to take another break for a year, so 2 in total. I'm starting to feel better, I'm grieving the r/s and I'm learning about what I brought to the table with a PD. If I hadn't of done what I've done, again I'm speaking for myself, I may of fallen for another abusive personality. I don't have regrets with my choices after the r/s ended with uBPDex.

How do you close the door entirely when you have family that you've gathered with for 36 years, holidays, birthdays etc. Do you still get together as family? Do you leave the ex, father, grandfather out? Does that send a mixed signal if you still gather for holidays? Can they handle that? My family is suffering greatly.

Hi 7minds,

*welcome*

36 years is a longtime. Do you mean the ex inlaws?

We always gathered both sides of family, his and mine for holidays. That may be unusual for most families. How can you continue a tradition like that? Do we both attend family functions even though we are detaching? I guess you just develop new coping skills for the sake of your family. Accept things for what they are, adapt.

I don't think there's a right or wrong 7minds. Every member on this board has someone in their lives with a diagnosed ex or an ex with traits. It is a spectrum disorder. Some are less / more ill than others. From my personal experience mine is too ill and it doesn't work. That said, you know your ex and both families better than anyone on these boards. Is the r/s one that is very toxic, more harm than good?

Mine returned major items like car, ring, but refused jewelry, computers, iPad, clothes, etc. she said those were gifts and she doesn't have to return crap... I said why would you want something from someone you hate? she said nothing lol.

BPD will never let this door close peacefully.

Mine once shut the door very loudly when discarding me with "Leave me alone finally." but she also opened it again or something might've been stuck in the door whilst discarding me... .'cause she's still sticking around. I made the experience that even when they say it's final it isn't and that they can't let go. So even "closure" isn't closure... .

"Arn13arn made the interesting point on my other thread (about my failed attempt to seek closure with cheating lying irresponsible entitled uBPD/narc ex- can  you tell I'm still angry?   that BPDs may avoid closure deliberately as a means of keeping us 'in the box' they maintain for exes."

Yes... .BPD's want control at all cost. Before, during and after. Mine lied, and left for new supply a week before Xmas (this thread does have a holiday subplot!). So she abandons me and runs off to new supply... .but is doing drive-bys and occassional contact to keep me on the string. She is "saying" that it is over but her "actions" are not.  Super sick stuff. My only painful recourse is total and absolute NC. There was nothing there for me but abuse and psycho drama. Nothing.  It doesn't matter what they "say" they are doing with the door or what their "actions" imply that they are doing with the door... .we need to put on our big-boy pants and shut down crazipants by slamming the door shut and walking away to a better place where we can heal. There was no closure unless I created it. None.

I have great empathy for the poor souls who have children with these Devils and there-by HAVE to interact with them. My pain is great enough... .that must be pure Hell... .