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He stretched out his arms and said, "this is you; physically, emotionally, intellectually, spiritually." He knows me pretty well after 3 months of weekly sessions, a few double visits in the same week.

He pulled his arms in closer and said, "this is her, physically, emotionally, intellectually and spiritually."

"I'll offer that a lot of you anger over things that she does or doesn't do is you expecting her to be something she is not, because she isn't capable of being what you want."

I was processing what he was saying, but I must have given him the dog turning it's head quizzically look and then I started kind of arguing. He sighed and said, "Ok, are you going to make me explain it again?" Then he looked at me and said, "In short, lower your expectations."

Ok, then I got it and fell silent.

We seem to dance around this subject here a lot, and even talk about how emotionally they are little children. Yet have any of you ever just stepped back and thought that what we want from them is something of which they just aren't capable? Love, understanding, logical closure. Could I expect to have a deep conversation at my level with my 4 year old son? Or D1.5? We know this intellectually, yet a lot of us don't seem to be accepting it emotionally. The result is frustration and getting stuck.

On that note, it might help me be less frustrated when the kids act out. They're just children after all.

I left today in the am darkness. She called out from the couch," have a good day." I returned the comment and wasn't angry.

Lower expectations, work on erecting those boundaries now and later after she is gone and we continue to raise the kids. Keep repeating to myself... .

Logically this makes complete sense and is correct but I am with you that there is a disconnect with understanding this emotionally.  I guess it will take time for me to accept that this grown woman who is a mother, wife, working person in society is a stunted emotional black hole who can't love or show empathy. 

I know exactly what you mean.  My oldest daughter has been diagnosed with BPD, and I can relate, argue, and discuss things soo much easier with her than with my wife.   I always thought is was because my daughter was a little lower functioning and that she handled things differently.

Now I realize that it's mostly me.  I expect my daughter to act that way, because those are my expectations.  It's still frustrating, confusing and difficult, but for the most part very managable.

My wife on the other hand drives me absolutely bonkers, because I expect her to be an 'adult'.

Yes, lowering your expectations is crucial. The biggest problem is handling them without being condescending so as not to anger them more. It's also great to help you not take things so personally and upset you. Radical acceptance. Be the bigger person, suck it up, stay calm and do your absolute best to make the situation have results that are best for you.

I know. It bothered me the other night when she was reading "what not to do in a r/s". That wasn't for me, it was for her and her boy toy. She didn't consciously mean to... . or maybe she did. It's just who she is, a child.

All in all, at this point, I still wouldn't go out and find another woman, because since she is still in my home with our kids, I would consider it cheating. At the very least, disrespectful and condescending. I bet if she found out, she'd be happy for me. That is me. The other is her. Split, split... .

I dont know how you do it. Just keep at it and think about how much better off you will be when it is all over. There is light... .


Exactly. Once again the adult. But one day you will reap rewards from your actions when you take the time to find a great relationship. You already know exactly how it will go with the boy toy.

But, but, but... . if I can expecting fully mature behavior, then she will understand what I want, see the light and change!  Right?

Ah, that is so much of my underlying thinking.  It is tied to "not giving up", "thinking the best of her", just a kind of wishful thinking, but of a type that was born out of reasonable expectations.

Thanks for the post.  Do I need to pay my fair share for you therapy appointment?  Send me the invoice.

It is an encouragement to "face the facts" and apply radical acceptance.  On this point, it took me a long time to know and define the "facts" that needed to be accepted.  And I feel okay about being slow to identify the lack of capacity in my ex.  The key was to focus on behavior, not being quick to judge personality, but simply assess the behavior and its effects on me.  In your case, her behavior is quite clear and a bit extreme.

One other aspect of this that I have been slow to adapt is that it can feel "controlling" or condescending (struggling for words here) to discount someone else's behavior.  In other words, to let something slide because they are not capable of acting more adult-like feels odd to me.  I guess the key again is to focus on facts, the reality of the situation and act accordingly.

Radical acceptance of BPD - this is what is necessary to let go.

Glad you had the "aha" Turkish  |iiii

 Ha, winston... .  I'll share with him next time that it helped others.

I'll still be struggling with this, sb,  at least while she's here. I  think it will be ok between us afterwards,  with clear boundaries from me,  which I  know she will continue to try and bust.

Her depression is a whole other animal,  and I  expect trouble there... .  cross that bridge when it comes up,  and it will,  unfortunately.

this is actually a good thing to take with us in any relationship. I  have that aha  moment with my mom years ago.  the frustrations with her emotionally are minimal.  operationally,  she's still a mess,  but that's her.

i have thought it - but only because my T has repeated it often enough now. "have you had any evidence ever that this woman is able to give emotional reciprocation?" well no, i haven't. but you'd think that a person of her years (48 now) and accomplishment (phi beta kappa) would be able? "nope" says T. i know that's right. i cannot absorb that that's right.


the lengths i went to to provoke conversation  


this was a topic with the T yesterday. otoh, it "just didn't work." otoh there's something to the content of my issues with her. the things that ground my gears were reasonable things on which to get your gears ground: some kind of adult (as i would call it) discipline  - with alcohol, punctuality, housework, organization, food - that would demonstrate a commitment to us. she seemed to have none. she had habits that would be unacceptable in the middle-schoolers i teach.


when i reached my limit i failed in this, and she was in her rights to be offended. i'm embarrassed of it.

Nice highlights, Maxen... . all I will say is, "Me, too!" 

Having that aha moment was what helped me move on.  It was also a strange realization that acceptance isn't always what I wanted or going to feel great.

Then self control, power of my life and choices, kicked in.  Where I accepted the person didn't have the capacity so to stay true to what was important to me (if you have kids then them too) following through on those boundaries.  Ex.  Stability is important to me - you aren't stable and that's your choice - I'm making the choice to bring more stability in my life and it has to be without you.  It kind of took the powerlessness out of it.  I wasn't at the mercy of another persons behavior.

Those boundaries you mentioned are so important.  It took me a long time to realize it. 

Some guilt I feel is that we were an intellectual mismatch from the beginning. I felt my standards were too high (not to sound arrogant... . but I am coming off like that), so I lowered them. Maybe she'll do better with someone less challenging (hence, the kid)... . for a while until the BPD behaviors start emerging. Wow. That sounds like I'm NPD or something.

Interesting isn't it - we lower our standards and then get mad at them when they don't meet our expectations... . flawed dynamic all the way around.

boundaries are really important for your situation - have you done the work on this... . the staying board (not that you are a stayer, not saying to post there) has some great workshops on setting boundaries.

Square peg, round hole. Who is who? Does it matter? They don't fit.

In the end, I knew beyond a doubt she saw our r/s the opposite of how I did. It was frustrating and unreal. I tried for years to find a common ground for us but couldn't. I put many expectations on myself, and on her, hoping she would do more good than harm (she didn't). I could not solve the problems on my own. She pulled away in another rage, saying everything was my fault. That's when I let go.

It wasn't anger it was accepting we were too different to keep trying to force a match.

Thanks for sharing this, Turkish.

I couldn't agree more. I think it was a turning point in my own acceptance process when I realised that my SO couldn't help who she was, and her behaviour was a reflection of that. Just as I wouldn't get angry at my toddler niece for childish behaviour, I realised that my partner was trying her best under terrible stress and mental anguish. She just couldn't see me - or our relationship - with clear eyes.

It's SO interesting to hear your therapist's perspective on this disorder. Need to get myself into therapy soon... . I think I would really benefit from it.