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Yeah, it's crazy I know it. But when I snap and tell her that I've has enough of her SH*T, tell her she isn't going anywhere, take her car keys, pick her up and carry her back in the house, tell her friends that they are losers and to stay the F away from her, dump out her booze... .


Really, when she pushes me to that point, she gets really loving and happy. It's like she can't get enough of me then.

And the really crazy thing is, if I treat her really good, she acts up, gets drunk or does something else screwed up.

It's to the point where I make a conscious effort not to be too nice

Well Joe, I dunno about being all forceful, but I think it is a clear indication that if you make boundries and enforce them, possibly they will get respected.

No woman respects a man who can't say no. Vice versa, too.

But this wasn't about saying no. To me Joe describes a situation where he's bern pushed over the edge and is crossing boundaries himself (possibly even going too far tbh). It is not healthy for a person to react positively to that. But I've been through the same thing with my wife. She doesn't seem to listen to my arguments, but she seems happy when I end an argument by "losing it" and going into a rage.

I think this has to do with that fact they did in a way "win" that way. If you think about it, Joe. You got to play the part of the daddy that punished her for being a bad girl. And she could keep being a bad girl (only temporarily grounded!). Argumentation and true communication is much more demanding because the subject of real change can't be postponed indefinately.

DBT therapists talk about the "release" that a borderline gets from a fight. It's the same release the get from cutting themselves (which some of them do). That's why a fight is such a "success"!

You are right. My gf has told me that she says it shows that I "care" when react to her rages. She has flat out told me that she thinks it is normal to behave this way. I did not validate that... .

They do get a release. That is why they keep doing it, because they get something out of it. If you use time outs effectively you can reduce this behavior.

Overall I think they do like boundaries though. If they really do believe that you will do what you say when they are crossed then they work harder to control themselves.

I agree.  Any form of reaction is "good" for them.  The more dramatic the better, because it matches up to what they are feeling (you're mirroring them).  It's not normal, and not healthy for you.  Because each time they want you to have a response, they'll try to make you mad.


I do that too, because when you're "too nice" (e.g. the pwBPD is angry about something and in an attempt to empathise, you say bad things about that person too), you're adding fuel to the fire.   I tend to stay on the logical side of things, not show too much emotion ("That's bad.  Those people are horrible and they're mean.", so as not to indulge their extreme thoughts.  It's difficult for me because I'm naturally an expressive person and I don't really keep my feelings to myself.

It is about  Joe saying no.

No drinking

No crappy friends

No driving drunk

No

No

NO

Instead of her respecting him, she persists until he literally enforces the no. He has been saying in many posts that the only way he can get her to respect his no, is to MAKE her.

Kind of a problem, she is unwilling to imppse self control and is relying on him to enforce it.

Well said, elemental.  We all have self control (to some extent) but pwBPDs are not WILLING to impose it, not UNABLE.  And to help her enforce self control, you will have to set boundaries, so she won't get your help in "forcing" her to do whatever. 

Yeah, pretty much. It's like she is relying on me to enforce her boundaries. It's not even like she resents me for doing it.

Sometimes I tell her that I'm going to start drinking and she has a fit. She says that I have to be sober because she needs me to get her sober again (she was 23 years sober).

This crazy dynamic has been going on a long time. Back in 1986 I caught her drunk in some bar I "forbid" her from going to. She took off and I chased her to her to her stepfathers apartment. She ran in the door and I was right behind her. I was holding her and we were screaming at each other. Next thing you know the downstairs neighbors (lesbian feminists no less) came running up the steps yelling "C, I'll save you, we called the police". I thought oh great, no way am I sticking around to try to explain this to the police, so I ran.

So now I'm home hiding in the barn thinking "oh great, I really screwed up this time" I guess I was there for about an hour and I hear her Jeep outside... .

That night, she moved in with me.

Like been said, setting boundaries and making reactions even in a manner that is not nice, would be better for the BPD than not saying no at all. 

However, healthy relationship should not be based on controlling, win/lose.  Plus, doing similar things will enforce the same idea of dealing with problem/emotions in a BPD's manner.  Therefore it would look easier for conflicts, but this won't resolve the issue. Things will explode when something too much for the BPD to handle happens. 

+1

This is very common. Even if you are on opposite sides of the issue at hand you are displaying the same emotion, they are not alone in their anger. By you being angry it validates them being angry, in a twisted way they see it as empathy.

The real trick here is to recognize this, as you have. That way you can be strong and firm, even angry, but you will maintain controlled anger. Controlled anger is black and white drawing a line in the sand, and final. This is BPD language.

Arguing is hard work even for them. When you clearly demonstrate that this is your final word and there will be no more negotiating, they can then stop arguing as they have exhausted every avenue. They only keep going if they believe they may be able to squeeze concessions out of you.

Anger is a normal human emotion. Regular couples get angry with each other all the time. Do not get dysregulation confused with normal anger. In our endless battles with dysregulation we learn to fear all anger.

Also dont get controlled and controlling mixed up

eg

I am not going to do XYZ, it is up to you whether you like it or not.

compared to

You are going to to XYZ whether you like it or not.

I go through a different sort of thing. My GF likes to be told what to do some days and other days accuses me of being "controlling". Almost like a D/s relationship.

I also agree that they need the conflict to feed off of. Recently she has taken up drinking excessively. To the point where she realized this morning that she is in danger. (And I'm 1/2 to blame btw). Well I have learned that sensitive subjects I must be monotone when responding. So this morning she tells me to be honest about my thoughts on her passing out every night drunk, so I respond in a soft caring voice, and she says "can I hear some caring in your voice?" I can't win. She's just recently been diagnosed so she's still in denial, and still doing her bad habits (purging, drinking, etc.) and not really attending therapy.

I'm about done.

I just wish I could force her to quit this damned job. It was her "friends" from work that she was hanging around with when she relapsed. She thought being 23 years sober made her "drink proof" and she could hang out with alcoholics and not drink. There is no way she is going to be able to get sober again hanging out with her "friends".

I got to tell you, alcohol is like a 1,000 X multiplier to the BPD. No way that they can drink and maintain anything even close to emotional regulation.

Joe,

I honestly don't know what to do other than inpatient for her and there is NO way Im getting her to do that.

She told me her goal was to drink till she couldnt stand. She said she takes a drink and gets happier, then another then another and said by the time the effects of the first drink hit her shes on drink #2. She's a size 2 and drank a fifth of Vodka last night. At this point, she wants me to leave her alone- so, I have no other choice. I tried to talk to her today and got a furious meltdown complete with Character assassination and name calling- and she was sober.

And then what?  I mean, if it wasn't the "friends" at work causing her to relapse, it might be the regulars that frequent the party store down the street or because of a family health crisis or a terrible news story or because of... . well, just about anything!

I learned long ago that I have no control over what another person does.  Doesn't mean I'm happy about some of the things they do or that I don't struggle with it at times, but it's freeing in knowing that I can let go of what they do and focus on what I do.

Speaking of news stories... .   A while back there was one featuring 2 happy men that were celebrating their 100th birthdays.  When asked what the secret to a long fulfilling life was, one answered, " To mind your own business"  

Yeah but there is no way she is going to get sober working with a bunch of losers who think getting drunk is "cool"

At just about every place of employment there will be a group of people that think getting drunk is cool.  It's up to her who she chooses to gravitate towards and whether or not she takes that drink.  No one else.

What will you do if she continues to drink?  

To want to genuinely get sober she will decide herself to reject these 'friends" as she will be sick of the whole scene and what it represents. If anyone else tries to impose that decision on her it will validate victim mode and make her want to drink more.

She needs to get sick of her own behavior and reject the lifestyle herself

I agree with 123Phoebe, get rid of one cause and it will be replaced by another. I have been there, something will always cause her to drink until she decides she has had enough. It does take a lifestyle change, she needs to want to change her whole lifestyle.

I used to get so stressed trying to chase down and address apparent causes. That just made it more of my issue. If only this, if only that... If only I had got on with my own life and left her to deal with her own consequences I would not have wasted 4-5 years.

I can deal with BPD but not addictions. Addictions are like runaway freight trains heading for a cliff. If you try to stop them you find yourself alone on the tracks. You get flattened and the train still heads over the cliff. These days I just step aside. The consequences happen quicker and her self realization happens quicker. addictions and obsessions are part of her behavior, one is swapped with the next. I can't stop them but I can minimize the damage to me.

Yeah well I really wasn't planning on letting her get another job. Maybe later when she gets sober I'll get her a job somewhere where I can monitor the situation and call the shots if need be.

To tell you the truth, I'm not so keen on having a wife who works for someone else. It always leads to a situation where her employer's interests and my interests conflict.

Okay... . So... .   Do you think that forcing her not to work and controlling where she gets her next job will make her happier?   Good luck with that!

What does she think about this?

I gave up pushing my partner trying to hold a job as it was always destructive. That is ok as long as she is ok with it.

OP: funny, I find myself in the same situation. Every time after I have a angry outbursts (it happens very not often!) it seems like she is more nice, even trying to show that she is attracted to me... . I think it goes along the lines of the fear of abandonment, and when we act out she has no choice but to court us back. When we are nice, she feels like all is good so let's pour all of my sh__t on him.

I sometimes think to myself why do I work so hard. Let me be an a__hole and enjoy life.

I think it's a better alternative than her drinking herself to death. Sure she'll protest and bhit some but deep down she knows I do that kind of stuff to protect her. I've felt like I've had to protect her since we first made eye contact in 1976. I can still see it like it was yesterday, that little 11 year old girl with the big green eyes that screamed "rescue me".

She asked me the other night about that. She said, "Why weren't you there to protect me then?"

I would have to agree with this. And makes him someone I don't want to talk to in the morning either.

Yup. Dealing with that this morning.

WAYYYYY overdone with the drinking, for days. And now I am the one to blame.

My alcoholic friend who has been in recovery for 20+ years says "anything to avoid feeling" that's why addicts do it.

She's right.

Aw Joe, I would imagine this sort of thing really pulls at your heartstrings.  I can't walk by an animal in a cage and not see the "rescue me" look in their eyes and want to save them and love them and give them a better life with no more cages.

We can't put a human being in a cage of our own construct.  Your wife is free to choose the life she wants to live.  She isn't 11 years old anymore and you're not her parent. 


When she gets sober... .

Do you believe you have a say in her sobriety?  May I ask if there is any alcoholism in your own family?

Yeah me . We both got sober in 1989. Although I relapsed in the late 90's and got sober again in 2001. So I have 12 years.

You know, I always looked up to her and her commitment to sobriety. I really thought that she would never ever drink again.

I know this sounds crazy, but she really is my life long love. I've been married, engaged, long term dating, with other women. I hate to say it, but no matter how hard I tried, they just weren't my "C"

Doesn't sound crazy to me, Joe. 

How did you get sober again?  What steps did you take, what helped, if you don't mind my asking... .   And congratulations on having 12 years under your belt |iiii