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I am sorry I have been MIA... I have been dealing with this mess for weeks. Last night I got my smoking gun. I caught him in an elaborate lie of where he said he was going. He said he was at this one bar listening to a rock band, spouting off songs they were playing... so I look up the bar online and there was a folk band playing ukeleles there, and they hadn't even started yet... He would NEVER listen to that music so I knew then... . So my friend drove me to the bar where the chick he is messing with works and sure enough, my car is there (he was driving my car)  He continues to text me about this band at this bar where he is not at... . Hours later he said he ended up at the bar where she works (lie, he was there the whole time bc I saw) and was hanging out with her boyfriend... which may be true. They are both in on this sick twisted thing together...

So what do I do now that I know all of this? I have the validation of what I needed to see and I want him to know that I know he lied, etc.

My exBpdbf did something similiar.  For the first 3 out of 5 1/2 years of our relationship all he did was paint a former gf of his "black" to me.  Told me what a messed up, horrible, nasty person she was.  I finally discovered he and she had been having an "emotional" (probably physical) relationship the whole time.  His excuse?  "I wanted to make you believe she was so despicable so that you'd have no reason to ever think I would hook up with her again".      She knew what he was doing and went along with it too.     Then both she and he started telling me how hit_up I was agreeing with him that she was a piece of hit_, because I did not know her personally        

Wow my head is starting to spin again.

Quite a mess you got there. I'm sorry all that is happening. I can understand how that would keep you off balance. You have choices. You are caught up in something that is causing you obvious grief. The stalking and playing detective might seem necessary and even a little fun maybe, in order to get the affirmation that someone is lying to you. Ok, so now you know for sure. You have a choice in front of you. Ask yourself what you want. Do you want to be Dick Tracy? If detaching and healing is what you want that's not going to get it. My advice... . Get your car back and have nothing more to do with the chaos. Focus on yourself 100% and focus on him 0%. Let him have his chaos, and when he gets his tits caught in the wringer don't bail him out. Go on with your life. I know it's hard.

I definitely want out, I know it... >I just don't know what to say to him or how to get the car back etc... .

Sad... When you ask for the car back does he comply? How's your courage holding up? Are you afraid of violence?

Dear sad,

I am sorry for your heartbreak and where this relationship has headed.

I always felt a bit better knowing I had caught my xH in a lie.  I didn't feel so crazy since he always denied everything.  The problem is he continued to deny and blame me somehow for his behavior. No matter what I showed him he had an excuse that my information was wrong.

I guess what I am saying most is that it doesn't matter that you confront him.  Maybe you will feel better but he won't change!  BPDs will always lie, twist it around and shift blame.

You do not deserve to be lied to.

P.S. Why is he driving your car to go and cheat on you?

It's your vehicle, you own it, and you have every right to retrieve it.  My advice?  Avoid creating any drama with him.  If you have an extra set of keys, have a friend drive you to the vehicle and just take it back.  You don't owe him an explanation.  The other issue that I would be concerned about is liability if he is going to bars with your vehicle and drinking.  

I have his car as well... he likes me driving his car for some reason? Its odd-its a very nice sports car and he says "I like my girl driving my nice ride"... .

I am not afraid of violence or anything but I do believe he is going to be in total shock.

Well... If he gets shocky just give him the URL for this site and we'll help him along as long as he's willing and doesn't go all B/L on us.  :)

Sad ... . of course, this isn't really about the car.  It sounds like you're not sure what this discovery means for what you want in the r/s itself.

My guess is that confronting him will accomplish nothing.  He won't change.  He might hide his behavior better.

It seems like you're having a hard time accepting that this is what he does.  Puts on a big show of devotion to you.  And messes around with other women.  And elaborately lies to you about it.

That's what it is.  Do you want it on those terms?  If so, radical acceptance: he does this.  This is what the r/s is.  Most pain comes from being at war with reality, denying it, being repeatedly confronted by what you have denied, living with that tension.  If you can accept this, OK, maybe it makes sense to continue in the r/s.

If you cannot accept this, please don't think you can or will change him.  You can change your own path, that's it.

I realized this fall my ex, with whom I was extremely close, in an emotional affair-type situation, was seeing other women.  He went to great lengths to conceal this from me.  I suspected it (like you have all this time), and at a certain point, I had absolute confirmation.  I knew a lot more about it than he realized.  I didn't confront him because the point is -- he did this.  You know?  It was a fact.  He wanted to be emotionally & physically intimate with another woman, despite how much I love him, despite all we'd done together, despite all the good there is/was between us.  All of that, and yet, he still wanted to get close to another woman in a way that hurts me terribly.  And he concealed it from me to make sure he could still have access to me.  He did not have my best interests at heart.  And he was not loyal to me, or to us.

There was no point in confronting.  I had to change my own path.  I could no longer be so close to him, because I couldn't live with what was true.  We're no longer in touch.  I did explain why, but not as a confrontation -- as an explanation of why I was changing my stance toward him.  He implied that I was factually wrong and was very angry & indignant.  I wasn't factually wrong and I know that.  You aren't wrong and you know that.  All you need to do is explain any changes you are making (and you don't even have to do that, I suppose, you could just make them & not explain).  You don't need any more information from him.

So -- if you can accept this, you could stay in the r/s.  If you cannot accept this, you should not imagine it is going to change via confrontation or a demand.  You can only change what you want to do in light of the information you have.

Good luck.

What exactly did you say to him? I feel the need to say something to him although I am not entirely sure what. DId he continue talking to you or how did that go?

I was very gentle, just saying I felt replaced/displaced, with him engaging me & then seemingly switching to other people.  He blew up, saying I thought the worst of him (implying it wasn't true.  But it was).  He was very angry that I didn't like what he was doing, and his reaction was to make it seem I was somehow accusing him falsely or letting him down with my lack of faith.

One comment I wanted to make to you: it is possible he uses these connections to other women as a Triangulation (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=121673.0) strategy to make it MORE possible to stay with you.  He can deal with anxiety about closeness with you because he has these other connections.  That's not uncommon.

But it still may not be something you can deal with.  Only you can decide.  In some ways the lying is the worst part in such a situation.  And I could be wrong, this could be real cheating -- I don't know, maybe you don't know either.  And the anxiety about that would also be hard to live with, constantly wondering what he's doing, and whether he's being truthful.  Real indifference about those things would be pretty rare.

If you can't be indifferent and you are drawing boundaries, I would say "hey.  I'm aware the facts of what you were doing last night are not what you portrayed to me.  I just can't be that close to someone who actively misleads me.  Maybe some people can, but I can't.  So XYZ [you're ending the r/s?  You can be casual friends only? only you can decide what this information means to you]."

But Sad, I don't get the impression you know yet what this means to you.  It sounds like maybe you want to just talk it through with him.  That doesn't seem likely to lead anywhere good.  I suggest spending some more time, maybe with a T, trying to figure out where you actually want to go with this.  Can you stay & accept?  I think you want to figure that out.  Staying & changing him -- please try to give up that idea.

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What exactly did you say to him? I feel the need to say something to him although I am not entirely sure what. DId he continue talking tod you or how did that go?[/quote]
Hi Sad:  I am sad for you.  It hurts.  I know the hurt of betrayal.  At least you know now, and can move forward.  I tried to keep the r/s going for years without knowing the truth.  I found only after my ex moved in two weeks later with her long time side companion that it had gone on for over a year and half behind my back.  I was blind with rescuing and too afraid to move forward.

The question I have to ask you is what I had to ask myself.  What do I want?  Do I want vindication?  Admission of guilt? Acceptance of Responsibility?  Closure from the words he might say? 

Because nothing you say will achieve any of the above.  If your SO has BPD, all of the above are beyond his capacity.

Do you want reconciliation?  Then perhaps the staying board is better.

Do you want your car back and out from the interaction?  If so, then a clear exit plan is needed.  I would not wing it, because then emotions take over and then it's out of control.  If you can have a friend there as well, it might help.  At least a witness to the events.  Figure out what is the best way for your particular situation.  But do it with detachment, and with as little emotion and personalization as possible.  Stick to the script and get it over as quickly and transparently as possible. 

If you want chaos, dysregulation,  dysfunction and destruction, then bring justified anger and resentment to the discussion and I promise you all hell will break loose. 

So for me, I had to finally ask... . What is it that I REALLY want, and how do I achieve it?  And when I said I wanted out, and really meant wanted out, then I was able to detach and recovery began.

This did not end well... . I showed up to talk to him and get my car. It broke my heart bc when I came in he was genuinely so happy to see me and I just started talking. I was polite and mature and discussed my concerns regarding his not telling the truth the night before, and also discussed my fears in the relationship and why I am nervous for the other shoe to drop. Next thing I know, it was ALL turned on me, he was livid, started pointing out all the good stuff he does/has done, told me I ruined his weekend, he can't believe I don't trust him, etc... . and he has texted and messaged me some pretty mean stuff since. He said he was drinking and messed up the bar times, but that is truly not true. He was describing a bar he was not at, the time was wrong, etc... he was not being honest. I have somehow ended up apologizing, now I feel like total crap and wonder if I made a mistake-I am a mess, I didn't sleep, I am anxious, etc... . I SHOULD HAVE LISTENED to the advice here... . confronting, etc... just doesn't work and they manipulate everything to their advantage and make you feel like you are crazy.

So sorry it went that way Sad but it sounds like you had to go this yourself to believe/understand it.

Maybe you can find the answer to what you seek within yourself as to what course of action is the best for now?

He may come back apologising/asking forgiveness or he may stick to his guns - neither of these things change the fact that he lied to you and misled you - the actual cheating is not really the issue is it? The fact that you have been in detective mode for weeks now and know for a fact that he is, at the very least, lying outright, should give you all you need to know to make a decision as to whether you can continue. This is the game now between him and you - do you want to keep playing or are you taking your ball and going home?

Sad, me too.      I've done the same thing.  Basically, we still think it will be different for us.  We want to believe so bad it will be different.  We approach, try to comunicate with our X's and expect a "normal" response.  Instead, we are dealt the gas light / projection / twisted / lie cards.  Like you, I was manipulated into apologizing a couple times too.  Always walked away with my "head between my tail" thinking What the heck just happened?  Even took me awhile before I started really listening to the advice I found here.  I had to learn for myself.  Like DC said though, "it is a game now".  It's not going to get any better and you will never win.  Most of all don't beat yourself up for doing what YOU had to do.  Not one person here will judge you.  In fact, we've ALL done it.  This is all part of the process.   

Sad,

I am so sorry you find yourself having to play detective. I completely relate. I've done it for so long. Unfortunately, you can never confront a pwBPD and expect a normal, rational reaction.  I've done two confrontations. The first she actually admitted to it (after lying for several years) but this led  me to finding out she cut herself. The second confrontation for a long drawn out emotional affair she raged and raged and put all blame on me.  They are unpredictable.  They masterfully twist and manipulate facts and somehow make it not about them but about us. It's so frustrating. A healthy rational reaction may include anger or embarrassment or displeasure if the accusation is false, and they could get defensive, but it's a typical BPD tact to rage and fully twist the situation around and to accept no blame.

What is your plan right now?  Please rely on this board for support through this difficult time.

Littlemisssunshine, completely agree. Even with hard evidence in hand I've walked away with tail between the legs, head spinning thinking "what just happened here?"  I've learned it's like playing a game with a stacked deck. There is just no "winning" because the deck is unfairly stacked against you. So you're left with two options, 1) keep playing the game knowing you can never win and that normal rules don't apply or 2) stop playing the game all together.

Thanks    it is "tail between the legs".  Ooops.  Heads a little cloudy... . up with my sick dog all night 

Lilmiss,

Sorry about your dog!  What kind of dog do you have?  What are his/her symptoms?

This is exactly how I feel too... . "what just happened here" and he made me feel just terrible. It ruined my day. I regretfully ended up sending him a heartfelt text while I was emotional, apologizing (and I see I did nothing wrong to even warrant an apology, I just wanted to fix it!) and telling him I wanted to work on and fix things and that I loved him... and as expected, I got no response. Why do I now feel like i ruined everything? I am deeply regretting ever going over there in the first place... . yet how was I to just live like everything was A-ok and its not?  I have no idea where we are now... if he is going to break up or what.  I really HATE living this way... but why then is it so hard to cut the cord/ Its like my mind messes with me.

Is he angry because he is caught? Does he recognize the fact that he lied and is trying to project and or twist to make it appear another way?

Oh thanks for asking.  He's a Mini Schnauzer, ten yrs old next week.  Diarrhea & blood in his stool.  He's seems to be much better today, symptoms disappearing   , vet tomorrow.

Is he angry because he is caught? Does he recognize the fact that he lied and is trying to project and or twist to make it appear another way?

ABSOLUTELY.  His mask is slipping Sadinnc.  He is projecting and from my experience there is no stopping him now.

What typically happens next? Does he break up or ?

My guess is he will most likely give you the silent treatment or emotionally withdraw to punish you for a while. In his mind he was wronged so you now have to suffer. It's all your fault and you are to blame for the whole situation is his thinking.  When I caught my wife in a multiyear emotional affair i got the same thing. Raging, twisting, it was my fault. I ended up apologizing and feeling terrible. (So backwards). My advice: do not say another apology. Stand firm. You had a right to feel suspicious. You confronted him in a rational way. He escalated it in an irrational way. If he's guilty he's going to try and be one step ahead so he'll use projection, blame, anger and guilt as his weapons. Don't fall for it. Just remain calm and keep posting here. We're here for you.

Lilmisssunshine,

So sorry for your sick pup!  I hope he continues to feel better and happy bday to him!

This is how I felt right before I left. My heart wanted to stay but my body and soul could not take any more. I had to leave for my own sanity. He is lying to you and continuing to emotionally abuse you. Could you ever trust him in the future?  Do you see a future with him?  Will he ever meet your needs?  Once the pain of staying outweighs the pain of leaving you will be free. It is such a difficult time for you. It hurts, your mind is a blur, and you are likely depressed. You will know when it is time to leave. It sounds like it will be sooner than later. Hang in there. It will get better once you begin the healing process.

The cycle will continue until you break it.  You mentioned he was very happy to see you the next day; could that be because he was just spending time with someone he has some kind to attachment with the night before, so his engulfment fears and the intimacy with you that triggers his disorder have been soothed temporarily, so he can come to you all cheery?  And then when you put him on the spot he felt shame mostly, so offload that onto you with anger and blame, and then you apologized, completing that projection.  

The cycle will continue until you do something about it; you are on an uneven playing field with someone addicted to chaos.  My experience is it's best to make a clean break, because if he senses things are different and you're distant, he will interpret that as abandonment and leave you, maybe not a bad thing, but better to be in control.

We've all got mixed feelings towards our exes, if it was all bad we would have left right away, and leaving him will be difficult, but do you trust him?  :)oes he respect you?  Will a long term relationship full of love, contentment and happiness be possible with this man?  Better to focus on the answers to those and act accordingly.  Take care a you!

Sad:  I am so sorry for your pain and confusion.  It's so difficult.  I've been there.  I accepted things from my ex, which I absolutely knew were lies and did not have the courage or awareness to better my situation.  But can you see the insanity here:

You catch him cheating, which results in you apologizing to him, which results in you wondering if he will leave     

Why would he ever leave you.  I would never leave you.   Will you be my girlfriend?  I want a girlfriend who will apologize to me when she catches me cheating and then make it up to me because she is worried that I might leave her. 

As was stated before, I had to either radically accept that the lies and deceit were a part and would always be a part of the relationship, or I had to leave.  For the most part, pwBPD lack the ability to change, and will certainly never change unless they are forced to take responsibility.

I was a victim the first time... . after that, I was equally responsible for all the pain because I enabled destructive behavior.  I was not a victim... . I was a volunteer. 

This is the first time I've understood radical acceptance. Wow it's so true I've been living with someone who I hated because she would do small betrayals, that I knew were indicating something bigger happening along the way. Really thought she would change when things went well, and they did.

Absolutely meaningless.

She is what she is. can I live with it... . NO!

Can she change... . no

Move on

I don't understand myself... or what in the heck happened or why the hell I am still in this thing at all. I was prepared on Sat to break up, then he turned it on me and I panicked... . then he showed up here on Sunday night and drove me around looking for cars/houses... saying he wanted to be together, etc... I thought he was over it (and why the heck I was over it, makes no sense, its like I wanted to forget what he had done) and he was fine all day yesterday, then something triggered him to get pissed again and he started in on "what I did" on Saturday, twisted and turned it to where I am groveling and apologizing, then went cold. Today he was ignoring me, then blew up at me on FB messaging making me feel terrible, apologizing, groveling, etc... then he said he cannot be what I need, he can't commit, he can't give me what i need.  He said the reason I came and confronted him about lying on Saturday was because I wanted to tell him I needed a commitment sooner... . ? HUH? I said nothing like that.  He then said that he noted I had a "sense of urgency" about a future together. That makes no sense! I said nothign like that. So I asked him why he thought that, and if he did think it, why did he come and spend the past two days looking at houses to move in to, talk about taking our kids on spring break, etc... . I am so confused? He then says "I am done talking about it" tells me I need someone else and to stop messaging him on FB or he will block me.  What the hell is this? Why am I so weak that I still want him back (the good times)? This is sick and I know it is so wrong of me... how the hell did I get into a situation like this?  Oh he is also back on Match.com... before he even discussed any of this with me today.

Sad:  I'm sorry it's so confusing and painful for you right now.  I understand. 

Perhaps seeing a therapist may help to sort through the difficulties.

It helped me a lot.  And staying on the board and writing and writing and reading and reading. 

But remember, stay safe. 

If I'm not sure what I'm doing, I better be sure to be safe.

Hey Sadinnc98.  Tausk's summary is succinct and spot on.

Your post resonated with me.  I feel like I could have written the very same words so many times.  As I read yours, I was thinking, "Order meets disorder."  You should be confused... . he was very confusing!  And when we try to realign such thoughts that are so out of alignment we end up all contorted ourselves. Exhausting.  Confusing.  Demoralizing.  Self doubt rises. 

I am reminded of what was posted here many times, the line from the movie War Games, "The only winning move is not to play."  As soon as you started your conversation with your SO, you were going to end up in a confused state.  And it is not about winning.  In this context, winning would be having a rational, sensible interaction.  It just cannot happen with someone who does not think clearly.  I am consciously not saying someone with BPD... . but look at his behavior.  it is a jumble of confused actions, intentions... . just a mess.  And the sequence of thought in the conversation... . well, it is all out of sequence. 

Just some thoughts on your post. 

Hi Sad-

I was in that exact situation, on a cruise ship in the middle of the Caribbean; I know exactly how you feel, I wanted to jump overboard, literally.  You're lost in the fog, don't know which way is up, are stressed and confused constantly.  A personality disorder will do a number on us when we're enmeshed in it.  I understand.

I liken it to what they tell you to do if you're being electrocuted, when you lose control of your muscles: throw yourself away from it, no thinking, just act.  When we got off the cruise ship I sprinted away from her; there was much more to process and heal from over the coming months, lots of stages, but getting away from her brought immediate relief and I never looked back.

Don't know what your situation is in detail, but can you go somewhere for a few days?  A relative or something?  I guarantee your thoughts and feelings will change with some distance, for at least a few days, and you can get your feet on the ground a little and start thinking more rationally, and the relief will be instant.  Take care a you!

I'll chime in with more of the same.  I played detective for 2 years and had, oh let's see, 8 confrontations, I think.  He apologized and admitted to it on 2 or 3 occasions and said all the things I wanted to hear.  But he continued the affairs, just changed the method and routine.

On other occasions I ended up begging for forgiveness after the confrontation - not b/c I believed I was wrong, but b/c I was scared and would say anything to get out of what became a seemingly dangerous situation.  And of course the affairs continued in these cases too.  Once your pwBPD realizes they can scare you into submission and get you off their case... . well, that's a living hell. 

So... . now you know.  Get out before you have years of a marriage, a house and kids with him.  Get out, get yourself some help and move on.  He WILL NOT change... . no matter what you say.  Trust me, I tried a different approach every time.  I got out 3 months ago.  I finally had enough.  You will get to that point too.  For your sake, I hope you get there sooner rather than later.

Thank you all for the replies and insight, not sure what I would do without this board. I woke up feeling so sad again.  Some of his messages yesterday just truly bother me... . I feel like I have been toyed with and misled for 18 months. He was saying "I told you from day 1, I wasn't the one for you"  "You are fooling yourself if you think I am for you" "I can't start a life with you when my kids are 500 miles away" "I cant do a committed relationship that is permanent" "I have no confidence as a husband"  If all of this is true... why has he strung me along like this?

Ok, so all of those are legit things... but then why has he taken me to look at houses for months, cars for months, sending me photos of engagement rings and telling me to pick one out, etc?  He told me to contact my ex husband to discuss buying my old house from him, sent me to the car dealership to trade in my car for a truck for him and I take his car... . This was as recent as 2 days ago?  I was under the impression from what he told me that he was working through things and ready to move forward. On Sunday we came up with a plan to find a house by spring break so his kids could visit and he messaged me addresses to go look at them... . all initiated by him? Told me to go look at specific cars at the dealership that he was interested in. Told me we should game plan exactly where we want to live and set our budget.  What is this?  I asked him why he was on board on Sunday and moving forward if this isn't what he wanted? So confusing! This isn't even addressing his lying, cheating and treating me terribly quite often.


I see it so clearly now and it makes me so sad... . yet I am also sad to let go. I have tried all morning to unfriend him on Facebook but I can't yet... . I am sure he will do it first.  I know he is terrible for me and a very messed up person... . why so hard to let go?  We had big plans this weekend and I am going to really miss them.  

I am guessing he is really gone this time... . 33 recycles now I think?