BPDFamily.com

Maybe someone can help me understand this? How is it that our BPDSOs possess the same behavior patterns (push/pull, Triangulation (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=121673.0), character assasination, gaslighting, projection, victimhood, lying, cheating, false acusations, alieanation, verbal, physical, and emotional abuse, witholding sex as punishment or control, and threatening to leave to control). How can ALL of these women and men come from so many different worlds, social groups, and while there past may be different in many cases, they ALL exhibit the same traits. How can this be? Is it all centered around that core feeling of abandonment? Thanks, kinda thinking deep today. Arn

Why does everyone with allergies sneeze?

Why does everyone with a cold have a runny nose?

It's just symptoms of a disorder.

All of my character defects are a symptom of my alcoholism. I can work on those, santa. I can get better rather quickly actually. Why can't they?

Understanding this more and more everyday.  Good "catch" Santa.

That's a good question.

I guess it's because their disorder only manifests through having relationships with others and for them to get help, they'd have to trust others. You can stop drinking alcohol, but she can't stop interacting with people.

Personally, I feel like they should be able to get better too. They just don't though. It's sad. That's just how it is though.

There's no logic in BPD, so before we start lets rule any out chance of the explanation including any logic from the 'non' world.

Right then, that leaves us having to exclusively employ only the ridiculous, & wholly illogical to  fathom this interesting mystery!

My money would be on vegetables being at the route of explaining the phenomenon of similar behaviour by thousands who've never met! Vegetables giving off BPD lifestyle instructions at a frequency audible to the disordered, but not Nons! A BPD king & queen residing somewhere deep in the amazon rain Forrest, guiding their disordered flock via transmissions from a magic potato!

I'd bet a tenner on that!  Because its so illogical & disordered, I might be right on the money!


Just my two cents, Moonie

Sometimes too, the cause is the cure.  In other words Arn, you got rid of the "cause" (her) and are getting your drinking under control.   She, on the other hand, will never be able to get rid of the "cause" and is doomed.  Like Santa said, she can never stop interacting with people.  You, however, can put the glass/bottle down.    You.

It's the way their brains are wired and how they behave as a result.  They don't process things the way we do.  There is no "cure" because it's not an actual "illness" - it's more of a different wiring mechanism in their brains.  Those with this afflication can get years and years of therapy but it's almost impossible to get them to change the way they process information.  

Think of it this way, all the physical therapy in the world won't change a physical deformity of say someone who was born with only two fingers.  It can help but it will never "cure" it to be 4 fingers and a thumb.

It can help them manage how to better use their other hand and how to manage using what they DO have available.  But it will still never give them two complete hands... .

That makes me sad.  

Have you guys ever read the "Botany of Desire" by Michael Pollen?  An amazing read... .

I haven't read it. That's a really cool title for a book though.

Really?

Do the book back up my theory ?

I don't know, I don't like to label anyone. Whom am I to say what he thinks or feels.  He's still a human being, that cries, worries, bleeds and gets hurt.  I've seen it in him especially when his past floods over his thoughts and he reminisces in all the could be's, would be's, guilt and shame trip.  I've never seen somebody so guilt ridden and full of shame.  I can tell you this from what I've observed in the last 6 years, he carries a lot of weight on his shoulders. He has pushed almost everyone that loves him on the farthest side of the room.  Most of his family avoids him.  He says things to them and me included that are offensive or just plain out there.  He can help it and he also can't help the fact he doesn't understand things like ramifications and cause and effect from the things he says.   I know he's tormented with thoughts of failure, not being good enough, never catching a break, I'm no good to anyone, along with I'm better than my coworkers, a better brother, uncle than anyone else.  Contradicting thoughts but they all live in his house... his head.

To make things worse, he lives with debilitating disease, MS.  MS itself can do havoc on ones mental health; put both together and now you really have a party!

So the logic of BPD is just different wiring.  As a human being, I love him but his wiring not so much.

my w has the BPD bad enough to wreck a marriage and someone's emotional stability (viz., mine), but she didn't do the push/pull, the gaslighting, the false acusations, the alieanation, the witholding sex, or the threatening to leave. the rest of it, yes. some clevertrousers once figured out the number of permutations: 9 criteria, 5 of them for a diagnosis. i read the resulting number on this site once.

ironmanfalls put it nicely, one of the characteristics of the disorder is the denial of the disorder. it's a mechanism to protect themselves form examining themselves. very few have the awareness and, equally important, the courage to face it. that's why very few of them can work on it. a few used to post here (oceanheart and a. j. mahari - read their posts, it's very enlightening).

so they don't all exhibit quite the same traits. they've got personalities too. mine has a large circle of friends, some she's known for decades. but, you know, it still sux. more for us than them tho'. i really have a hard time sympathising.

Depends on how you look at it.  Regardless, it's an awesome easy read... . makes you think.

So, they have to be involved in a relationship in order for their traits to maifest? My ex was realy close to her family probably bc she needed them to triangulate. But they are all disordered and have their own issues. But her friends do come and go. So, it's only in relationships, it seems the best way to handle a RS with them is to show no love, no vulnerability and no interest

Yeah, that comes with an inherent risk though... .

The thrill of the chase being fired up again!

I'm not joking! It runs that risk!

BPD is a disorder of attachment.

It manifests itself in very early childhood.

The baby has to come up with inventive ways to get the attention of it's mother, and unfortunately bad behavior is what works.

It is important to remember that those that suffer from BPD have a lot of trauma to overcome ,  they usually come from very dysfunctional enviornments,  they are human beings that never had their needs met as babies, children.  They often are not pointed to the direction of help in early childhood.

Please don't misunderstand,  I was unable to remain in a rs with my BPD partner,  but as I heal more fully and find compassion for myself around not being able to help him,  I am finding compassion for him. 

I often read that there is no cure,  but there is help,  but most often people who suffer from BPD do  not seek help,  not having the ability to trust the world in anyway is unimaginable for me.

I know that my ex is suffering,  sometimes I see him with compassion in my heart and I feel very sad for him.  But I know I can not help him and i can not live with the chaos and abuse of BPD.

Zsazsa, yes I love my uBPDex, don't mind admitting it. But I have to love myself enough to keep her out of my life.

I've Love for her, but more for me!

I've compassion for her, but more for me!

How it is! And how it should be!

I get it Moonie.

I really have a deep respect for those who are able to work within the confines of a rs with someone who suffers from BPD.

I was not in a place in my life where that was possible.

I knew he was suffering,  that is why I stayed so long,  my suffering had to come first,  and a relationship with him caused me a lot of suffering.

This is the essence of the point here.  Our expectation of our SOwBPD to be able  to change and heal is a projection on our part.  Yes, we project what we want onto them as well.  For the vast majority, they simply can't change.  The pathways into certain areas of the brain just were not developed.  And even in DBT most of those pathways are not developed.

I would not expect a person with Autism, Aspergers, or Down's Syndrome to change and cognitively comprehend certain concepts.  The same is true of a person with BPD.  They are who they are, and of limited development. The sad and pathetic fact is that I became attached, and fell in "love" with a person of so little capacity.  

My friends saw this from the start.  But I wouldn't listen.  If one of my friends fell in love with an person with Autism and got angry because the Autistic person wouldn't change, then I'd say to him... . time to get into counseling and look at yourself.  My friends said those words to me in an intervention and it helped me.

Motivation is one factor.

You mentioned before that you're in AA so you're clearly willing to work the 12 steps and do whatever it takes to recover from alcoholism.

I don't know your BPD ex however I'm guessing that she simply doesn't have the motivation or desire to change. I've read that DBT's success rate is highly reliant on the clients being highly motivated i.e. clients who are prepared to do the homework, be honest about their behaviors, co-operate with all the individuals and professionals on the course, work hard.

Axis II disorders are also more problematic than Axis I disorders. BPD falls into Axis II whereas alcoholism falls into Axis I.

So, if the symptoms come up in rlationshipd only, we can expect them to bring the same problems into each relationship. Yet, going back to her family, why does it seem there are no problems there?

Looks can be deceiving. There may be problems there you just aren't aware of.

Also, they've been around her forever and she's always been like this. They may just be used to it or just expect the behavior from her and aren't bothered by it because that's just who she is to them. Families have a way of dealing with these type of people so that things don't blow out of proportion even if they do drive her crazy. They're one big support system for each other.

What they do in relationship with us,  they do with all others ,  inside a relationship of this type.

It's not personal.  BPD's survive relationships , they don't have them.

How do you know that she has no problems with her family? Like they're actually going to tell you about it!  

Every family has skeletons in the closet-things they hide from outsiders. You're an outsider to them so they're not going to tell you the truth about what really goes in the family, even if they have a problem with your ex's behavior.

(speaking of your own w i presume) don't be sure there aren't problems. my w comes from a prominent family in her state. to all appearances this is a family of success and distinction. yet, her older brother wrecked his fist marriage through adultery, as now my w has also. her father is an abdicator, and her mother, however high her IQ and however deep in her state's history her family runs (right back to the 1600s), has the emotional development of a child. my w told me horror stories of how her mother treated her, and how her father never did anything to protect her (my w). so appearances mask a very disfunctional family.

it doesn't have to be genetic, it can be environmental too.

 If one of my friends fell in love with an person with Autism and got angry because the Autistic person wouldn't change, then I'd say to him... . time to get into counseling and look at yourself.  My friends said those words to me in an intervention and it helped me.[/quote]
The autism comparison is a good one that I need to keep focus on... .   what makes it so difficult is the intermittent reinforcement they give us.  Those with BPD do seem to be completely loving and stable and "normal" to us at times - and it has been that intermittent behavior that has kept me trying and trying.  Of course the longer my r/s went on, the less often came the "reward" - but it had to come sometimes, otherwise, I'd leave.  And then it makes you wonder, is he doing this on purpose?   

I guess it gets more complicated when you take into account that those with BPD are all different with their own other overlapping issues potentially... .   maybe that's where the "does he do this on purpose" comes from when I wonder about things he does and if he grasps what he's doing.  Yes.  He does. 

Anyway - thanks for that comparison... . gives me food for thought... .

With family, my ex usually was in the state of a dissociative personality.  The one that seems most rational, yet doesn't usually have much emotion.  She also used this with most of her friends and at work.  And she would adopt this mode, when I would catch her in a lie, or ask her a question that she didn't understand.  But the Abandoned child comes out only with a primary relationship.  But the mirroring from the Abandoned child can only last so long before the dysfunction begins with the Anger and punishment, and push/pull, and disregulation. 

It is one of the reason why it seems like so much of the behavior is deliberate.  I screamed once, "if you can keep to a schedule at work and be on time, why can't you do it with me when we are to do something with my friends?"  But the sad fact is that the neurosis of having to share me with my friends led her to think I was leaving and her response was sabotage.   

PwBPD have very little choice in many of their actions.  They cheat, lie, self harm... . because they feel it will protect them in the long run.  Do they only self harm in relationships?  Of course not. That's why a significant number kill themselves, and a significant number hack themselves up with a steak knife. 

So when I ask myself why did she do those things, "to me",  I also ask why does she have scars on her legs from when she used to cut herself. And why has she destroyed most everything she has had.   Then I realize a bit that her actions are not personal to me, but just primitive and seemingly self-destructive responses hardwired into her wetworks.    The behavior made not sense to me, and I thought I could be changed.  But it was never about me.  I was just the random person who was there as the willing participant. 

Last year on these boards somewhere when I was totally green to BPD... .

Someone told me "try not to take any of it personally. It was never personal! It was just your turn to take her hand, and dance with her for a while".

It broke my heart. Because its as sad as it is completely true!

So it's only present in the primary relationship? Going back to the core fear of abandonment? My ex's dad left her with an abusive mother when she was 5 yrs old. But she loves her dad to death today and now lives with her mother and our son. Bc her dad told her he was sorry 20 years ago, her sisters and her act like he's god.

It IS heartbreaking... .   I am picking up the pieces yet again as I know my ex is suddenly in a brand new r/s - even though the week before he became "exclusive" with her, he told ME he loved me... .   he was lying about this girl entirely to me until 2 days ago when his coworker told me about it.   Still smarting from that blow... .

I might understand intellectually that it's all about him... . but my heart cannot comprehend how he could have done this to me... . AGAIN... .  

Arn, similar thing with my ex. Her dad walked out when she was just five. She vividly remembers every detail of that night 30 yrs ago!

Her dad hardly saw his daughters through their school yrs and often failed to show for birthday & christmas's etc. those two girls must've felt very 'unworthy'.

Fast forward twenty years & dad suddenly wants to have a relationship with his now grown up daughters. My ex seems to worship the ground that tosser walks on. My ex's BPD behaviour didn't really appear until her own divorce four years ago. But in these last four years her father is the only family member she's never acted out on!

I've quietly wondered if this is down to fear he would abandon her again? Who knows.

":)one this to me... . AGAIN... . "


Undoubtedly one of the most commonly repeated things we've asked ourselves through the tears, as we've curled up alone, and cried our hearts out!  

God help anyone & all of us who've become too familiar with that question!  

I'm sorry I don't know how to edit my posts. Can some tell me how to edit after I have posted to correct spelling errors... .

The dysfunction does not only come out in the primary romantic relationship, but it can be the most dramatic.  But it can also be intense with primary family as well.  Read about having a person with BPD in the family.  I was writing from my experience, where my ex's family seemed to function.  It only after a couple of years did I realize that the functional only covered up the years of insanity, and everyone of them was totally f'ed up.  But again, it's not us.  It's the disorder.  

I had to depersonalize it in order to detach.  The questions that I need to answer are internal.  Real freedom for me came from asking, "Why did/do I... . ?"  not "Why did she... . ?" There will never be a final and consistent answer to any of the questions regarding "why did she... . ?"  It's simply the nature of the disorder which does not compute in my world.

Learning about BPD helps me understand what questions to ask, but ultimately the question I need at ask is, "why am I attached to a relationship with someone who is so disordered, and what can I do about it to improve myself."

There's a "modify" button on the top right of your post after you hit enter - it will allow you to edit your posts.

It is really our own behavior that we need to be focusing on... . particularly if we're all asking "how could he/she have done this to me... . AGAIN" as I am sitting here doing.  But I DO ask what is going on with ME that I can't fully disengage from this person - aside from the obvious fact that I do work with him and cannot escape him.  I am pretty certain that if we did not work together, I would have been done with him long ago.  But now?  I can't understand it.  I do not miss being emotionally abused constantly (how could I?  It happens all the time whether we're together or not)... . I don't miss being accused of hitting on men left and right all over the place. 

And even at the times I see him and can see a very angry, disturbed man in front of me, some part of me feels this intense craving for him... . . 

Trauma Bond, Stockholm Syndrome, PTSD, Intermittent Reinforcement, Idolization to Devaluation, ADDICTION!

Why does a Heroin addict crave and pick up the drug even when he knows it will destroy him.

For me:  It's the highs.  The adrenaline.  The mirroring.  The escape from the realities of my own fears and self doubts.

But it takes time to recover, and I try to find as much compassion for myself as I do for others on this board. 

Tausk... . you are right and I recognize my massive addiction to him... . I just can't find my way out right now... .   I thought I'd made so much progress yet when he reached out to me this week that sent me spinning... . then as he was flatout lying to me I found out he's not only met someone new but already exclusive with her... .   and BAM the addiction sucked me right back in... .

I am struggling SOO badly tonight in withdrawal. ... .

T2, I hope you can be kind to yourself tonight.  We all have struggled.  The pain and the despair I have felt is so real but only people on the board really understand.  I understand your pain.  I really do. 

I have lived my own, such as why would I stalk my ex and drive by her place when my replacement is there instead of me?  Why would I jab such knives into my own gut?  Because we are trauma bonded.  At least there is a reason.  And that can provide me hope.

You're not alone, and remember that you're working on the path to freedom.  Progress not perfection.  As I said, I try to give myself the same compassion as I would others on the board.   I hope you can as well. You are good, kind, loving person of decency and character.  You are brave.  We all are on this side.  And there is always hope because we are not alone, and we do have the tools to move forward.

In support and with my prayers,

T

Thank you... .    :'(

That isn't necessarily true in all cases though you are correct about expectations. As someone with Aspergers, I have been been able to address weaknesses and turn them around. We differ because we are aware of being different and either chose to accept those differences or work through them. In terms of relationships, because we are aware, if someone said something we did was an issue, would have no problem working through that with them. For example, I can suffer from anxiety in crowded areas and it can cause sensory overload. Imagine trying to process 20 or 30 different conversations all happening at the same time  :)

I can either chose to accept it and do nothing, stay away from crowded areas and avoid the issue altogether or adapt and overcome, either through therapy or on my own. Regardless, I still take ownership and responsibility rather than place blame on the crowd for being there.

My personal approach has been to look at the situation first. If it’s for something important, I have explained to friends that I might have to step away for a short while to somewhere quiet and explained the reasons why at the start. That way it doesn’t affect my friends, they aren’t stood wondering where I have gone, ruin their day looking for me, wondering if they have done something or if something is wrong and I certainly don’t put the blame on them for being there and hold them responsible for my decisons. If there is no reason for being there then I can decline and when looking at long term prospects, addressing the issue permanently is the best solution.

PwBPD don't have that luxury, many don’t have the functionality to look inwards and when they do get a glimpse, it becomes a hot potato and everything then gets projected outwards onto others. Instead of taking ownership, they look for something to fill that void, even if it is just briefly masking the pain they are feeling. Many of the behaviours seem to be as a result of having the inability to control those inner feelings, either because they don’t understand, refuse to take on that responsibility or because they never developed those coping mechanisms and revert to what they would do as a child.

It was my quote and I apologize.  I did not mean to offend anyone and my reference was incorrect.  I value respecting all people and this statement was short sighted and not well thought out.

I hope that you can accept my apology.  The intent was good, but my ignorance and haste led to a poor analogy.

Tausk,

Thank you though there is no need at all for an apology, I totally understand where you are coming from and agree with your perception. I apologise if it caused any concern and also to Take2 for crediting the comment to him.

There are key similarities between someone on the AS and BPD in terms of certain reactions so your quote is certainly not wrong as it does stem from cognitive comprehension to certain concepts. My exBPDw attempted to label me with BPD as we did share some similarites to the point she almost had me convinced. It was my T that helped put that into perspective.

PwBPD is more emotional and illogical, AS is more logical and less about emotion.

PwBPD tend to project their percieved emotions outwards and meltdown where AS tend to draw emotions inwards and meltdown because of their surroundings.

PwBPD tends not to take responsibility, AS tend to take responsibility for everything

PwBPD tend to lack empathy for others, AS, although it was once said lack empathy, we are in fact hypersensitive to other peoples pain

So whilst some external traits might look similar, more often than not it's for very opposite reasons. So to that, your statement was indeed correct. People on the AS are more likely to challenge those concepts in themselves and seek help where needed. Obviously as it is a spectrum, the same cannot be said for everybody as some have the capability to be more self aware than others.

Again, no need to apologise as your comments were very valid 

Arn

Bpd is NOT an issue or a problem of INDIVISUALS. Bpd= 100% nuts.

All borderline's BRAINS only and only work the same way but their ACTIONS are different due to different level of IQs ( disorder has no effect on IQ ), different cultures,... .

Non borderlines are different individuals but because they have been affected by this illness, all become only a statistic as non borderline. That's why we all understand each other really well. 

Arn ... my personal issues are more evident in my familial r/s's (or lack thereof) as well as with friends - I break these bonds quite easily, go years without speaking to my family (not through fighting but because I am detached from them - sibs only - my parents both died before I was 24) ... it is the same with friends, I move on, get bored, or simply 'don't' keep up contact.

With romantic attachments, I attach much more deeply - and the abandonment stuff is triggered bigtime creating push/pull dynamics that I don't feel with friends and family - but I also tend to fight for these much more.

not sure if that addresses your question or makes any sense. 

I'm new here but my understanding with pwBPD or people in general is that we all have some kind of core issue to work out. It is hard to see any rhyme or reason in most cases. The variables are just too great! We meet these people to learn how to deal with ourselves, they have the same opportunity, but their wiring does not allow them to process the same! I have been hurt greatly by pwBPD, they have undoubtably been surrounding me my whole life. In order to learn what I must! Understanding the concept of a rescuer makes it easy to realize how we must change our ways, but because we are rescuers in the first place, for whatever reason, maybe our purpose is to have even greater sympathy for these sick individuals. Not to throw ourselves down on the alters, but to understand what true selfless love for others means! We all have been pushed to limits where we have lost our cool and added to the triggering! Maybe all of this is to not lose our cool, but to know when our role with pwBPDs is over! Thus limiting triggering events and both parties involved learning! Maybe we are not martyrs because of our own disorders, but what is expected of us as our roles! That is what true unconditional love is, and that is exactly what the pwBPD are looking for!

Turn the other check, while finding a way not to get ran over! Thus the purpose of life!

Maxen

I know a borderline woman who is a smoker and has a large circle of friends. She doesn't smoke infront her freinds who doesn't know she's a smoker! BUT she took a revenge from her husband and slept around with strangers, a middle aged woman!

Borderlines have chameleons personalities, they are copy cats because they've got NO sense of SELF. When somebody has got no sense of self, they are not able to have a true perdonities. If they had they wouldn't be borderlines. Not all borderlines act the same way, waif type ACT IN their negative feelings and emotions.

If your wife was a borderline and didn't ACT OUT, that doesn't mean she didn't have all the negative feelings towards you, she didn't just express them to you. That's why so many men get shocked when their shy and... . Wives cheated on them and suddenly left them!

damage control are you BPD?  very interesting perspective... .   I am interested to hear more, will read some of your background to help me understand more... .    :)

Murbay... .   very intersting, I didn't know that there was any comparison between the two.  I didn't think the original comments about this were doing that - I must have the boat on it but admit that both last night and this morning my head is in a pretty bad place... . but it's very interesting to read your perspective, thank you for sharing... .

Lack of symbiotic bond between a newborn and her/ his biological mum is one of the reason that lead to BPD. A borderline disordered mum is not able to have this bond with her baby that's why when you look at their families most probably their mums are borderline too! That maybe one of the reason their dads left.

A borderline disordered female normally is not close to her borderline mum and always attaches to their dads. A borderline disordered mum is envious of her daughter's success and even sometimes feel worthy if they are able to steal their daughter's boyfriends or husbands if they are able to!

Take2

I honestly don't know - I meet 7/8 of the 9 of the criteria - I definitely do not outwardly rage.

TBH - until I saw the criteria listed in b+w I had never thought about there being anything 'specifically' wrong with me but the list was a bit of a shock to me as I most certainly to detach easily from friends/family- I just always thought I was a loner.

With my romantic r/'s, I have only ever had one that went past 1 year - and that one, I did detach from completely and easily (together 15 years).