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d11 is sending me e-mails to me when with UBPDDAD expressing her important feeling, "it must be fair between parents".

1) this is not realistic, life is not fair.

2) the court ordered ROFR to me, which UBPDX ignores and states "d11 will choose access" in emails.

part of me wants to find a sympathetic lawyer. (I have not met one yet)

try setting a little contempt boundary and see if he will straightenup.

But if he wont straighten, he will turn the screws tighter, up the alienation and village ostrasization,  on d11 against me and GOD only knows what else.


3) alienation research says "HOLD ONTO THE LOVE RELATIONSHIP, DO NOT INVALIDATE ALIENATED KID, HOLD REALITY AND GROUNDING LOVE AND TRUE POSITIVE MEMORIES"

(when all our protective instinctive boundaries scream "RUN", and want to protect our child from this monster, but any words against her father will be construed as ALIENATION against HIM?)

keeping calm, grounded in reality, loving and NOT REACTING seem best for d11 and myself.

4) research on children of joint custody documents common need for child to be equal for parents.

d11 expresses this. it protects her and my relationship/time as well as her dad, I guess... . except that I'm not using active alienation during the equal time she spends with me.

I really want to do whats best.


It is stressful, nonetheless.

I know it's stressful.  I'm sorry.

As for things having to be fair, what is she saying is not fair between parents?  What's behind this?

Another thing is D11 is the child.  You're the adult, with court orders to backup your rights and authority.  D11 simply has to respect it.  When my son questions me on things of this nature, he gets told in no uncertain terms that he's the child, I'm the adult, he's trying to be in charge and venture into adult decision making territory, that is inappropriate, and he's going to do what he's told and go along with his parents tell him to.  Period.  End of story.  His parents are in charge and he doesn't get a say regarding certain subjects.  He hates it, but he at least respects it when with me. 

That said, do you think uBPDdad is coercing her to send these emails?

Also, children of divorce do best and need two healthy parents, but when one parent isn't healthy, there are arguments that can be made that the child shouldn't be around the unhealthy parent as much.  Alienating parents are not healthy and harm their kids.

If uBPDdad won't follow the court orders, you can document it and take it to the court for contempt.  It's the court's order, not yours, not his.  Only the court can enforce it, not you, not him.  Consequences could be having his parenting time reduced, etc.

And yeah, D11 won't like it, especially at first, but eventually she'll figure things out.  It's okay for you to set a parent/child boundary with her and not let her pull this kind of manipulation towards you.  It's also okay to establish who is in charge, who is not, and make her fall in line.  There are certain things an 11 year old shouldn't get a say in regarding their upbringing.  This particular subject is one where I've set a boundary with my S9 that he just plain has to do what he's told, go where he's told, and go along with what his mom and I work out for him.  He doesn't like it and complains sometimes, but in the end I think he feels better overall knowing his parents are in control and he's safe.

You mean you aren't trying to be his BFF, and and are instead being a parent? Good for you!

Read ":)ivorce Poison" by Richard Warshak - it deals very well with alienation.

One key is to deal with it early - don't let it take root.

Another key is to deal with it strongly but not by trashing the other parent to the child.  I think when D11 is with you, that's when you can have a good discussion about it.

You can tell her, "Your dad and I talked with a judge and the judge made the final decision about this.  We all need to follow the judge's decision because that is the law.  What the judge decided was blah blah blah" - keep it simple but make it clear - an 11-year-old can understand the calendar and schedules - "so that is what we should do.  If your dad wants to do something different he has to take it up with the judge and me - he can't decide on his own or he is breaking the law."

Also, concentrate on the quality of the time you spend with her - that doesn't mean all fun-time, but some fun stuff, plus helping her with homework and doing other stuff that is good for her - maybe exercise or other things that meet her needs.  Listen to her really well so she knows she can talk to you.  Validate her perceptions and feelings - that doesn't mean agreeing with them, but acknowledging that they are hers and you accept them.

Finally, make it clear that you will follow the schedule and that's that.  "If I get another e-mail from you asking for a change to the schedule, I'll write back, 'Let's discuss it when you're here.', and that's what we can do - discuss it when you are here.  I think you may be feeling pressure from your dad when you write those e-mails so I'm not going to engage with you on the subject when you're with him."

Thanks for the replies !


Answering You Waddams... d11 feels uncomfortable with unequal access time.

and yes from separation, UBPDad has insisted on "fair" much, of course, fair to him is counted differently (whatever he wants) than fair by d11. d11 does not do BPDMATH LOL.

I am learning I can validate her feelings.

Where I am stuck is UBPDDAD HAS indoctrinated d11 on "fair" so successfully, I am sure she would now insist on Joint custody in a child interview... . so he has successfully alienated her to 50/50... . lessinging my chances to get any traction on more residential time with her for now. as she reaches 12 ... . and has more of a voice.

more disturbing than the "fair access" issue is the insinuations repeated in emails building a "case of lies on paper" against me... . and the list goes on of all the alienating tactics d11 is experiencing.

I feel confident with the concepts of the  boundary and communicating court decisions and the judges orders, etc. to d11. It is always UBPDX who's crazy interpretation of orders and no doubt the next manipulated alienation slap is always at play in the communications.



Matt... . I had done and did exactly as you suggested. Ive been on that book for 2 years.

Nipping it in the bud, I was unable.  basically because the alienation was set in place and started when she was born, not with the separation and extinction burst. No, we had 10 years of uBPDdad's first knee jerk reaction was always to put the baby in the middle of a fight and blame mama, any chance to tun the baby against mama was taken?  The beginning of my WTH fog.

so I cannot undo all this, failed to get her out. or Nip anything in the bud, although I believe it's good advice.

What is true, and seems to be working is radically loving her through it all. being more strong in my love for her than my fear of him. knowing she is 11 and not 4 gives me hope. she will see more and more. it already feels like im in worst case scenario... . it would take alot to lose any more access time, especially if d11 is stuck on "fair".

just being her grounded loving parent I was before the madness, I bring that to the moment with  her, and the concentrating on the good when we are together.

I am concerned how far he will play it. He has been turning up the alienation latelly.

I will eventually have to tackle the rofr misbehaving with contempt charges or threats of by lawyer.

But I will have to wait a bit get some more cash and look and pray for a new lawyer, first.

Our divorce was final only in June, meanwhile I build my e mail pile  of denied access for scheduled ROFR visits, always based on "d11 doesn't want to be with you".

Damn, he knows how to trigger this mama bear.

I have another question... . did your ex agree to this plan, or did the court order it against his will? This can be a useful reference point. 

My and DH's approach is to validate, and provide age appropriate information. For me, validation is not changing the kid's meaning to my meaning, but to try to see and validate the core issue.  My experience in dealing with the kids trying to protect BPD mom by critiquing fairness is that what is happening is that they are hearing way too much information from BPD mom (in our case) about court issues, which she is not supposed to discuss with the kids, and they feel responsible for her distress and anger and want to fix it by negotiating with the sane parent who they KNOW is reasonable, because they do not have power with the BPD parent.

So IMO, the real issue is feeling powerless to end the conflict they see playing out in the BPD's anger and rage over the plan that exists.  They have bought into the idea that the problem is the sane parent, but the core issue is not what the plan says but the fact that they are powerless to impact their BPD parent's core distress.

In our home, after custody litigation we really cannot address these issues head on(before that, we could once in awhile) as the kids have been told never to tell anything about mom or to talk about her with us at all.  But we can address the feeling of being powerless.  Not to make it go away, but to really let them know we know how hard it is not to have a choice.  That it is real that a child does not have a choice with whom they live/stay, and when parents divorce, the parenting plan is what governs the rules on that topic.  That in our culture, the law does not give that power to a child until they are 18 (in most states). 


So validating includes acknowledging the sense of powerlessness. Something like, "It sounds like you are really having a hard time with not being able to choose where you live and if the times you are with dad and I are fair.  I totally get it.  I had a hard time with that, too, when I was 11.  That is just not an area where kids have power in our culture, and I know that is hard."

I might also say,  "When I was 11 I wanted to start a kids rights movement to change all this!  But think about what it would be like if you were the one in charge of all the things that your parents are supposed to do at this age... . you would be eating cupcakes at every meal, staying up til 2am watching movies.  So you kind of have to live with the parents being in charge at this age, even if they make some mistakes.  This plan is your parents best compromise at what they thought would be best for you ,so this is what they are going to stick with for now." 

I am a step-parent, so I have the great advantage of not being at all a part of the decision to adopt our parenting plan, to which both parties agreed.  SD13 is often saying she wants it to be different.  My response is first to say, "You know that I do not have any power to shape the plan, right?"  And she says yes.  "So we are both in the same boat here." 

Then if she keeps asking what I think, I say, "Your parents made an agreement about this, and until they both ready to change it, this is the way it is."  she will often make an agument that her dad forced her mom to do this, in which case I say, "Court stuff is really hard for everyone, but it is my belief that the best decision comes out of compromise, which means that both of your parents, who love you very much, communicate what they want and then they get help working out what the final plan is.  This plan is the best your parents could do to come up with a plan they both liked. They both agreed, both of them signed it.  None of us guesses perfectly what will work best, so there are some mistakes, but right now this is what both mom and dad agreed to, so it is the law."

Then I say, "I know it is different because my folks were not divorced when I was a kid, but I also really wanted to live elsewhere when I was a kid.  Most kids start to feel that way at your age.  That is totally natural and the first signs of growing up.  Do you want to hear where I wanted to live when I was your age?"  SD13 is insatiably curious, so she says yes, and I tell her how I wanted to live with all my friends in an abandoned building. 

If it is a decision the court ordered, I usually say something like, "This is the compromise the court came up with that they thought was best for you, and that would help your parents get along better.  It is not perfect, but this is the way it is.  But I sure know how hard it is to not have power over your circumstances."

Good luck.  It is painful to hear your child trying to mimic dad's arguments or make them for him, at 11, when she is not old enough to understand the issues and is being given way too much info by dad.  This is not what she really feels; she probably is really dealing with a very upset BPD dad, and believing that if he got what he says he wants, he would be happier.  She really just wants him to be okay, and that is something she has no control over.  That is such a hard place to be in as a kid.  It is not about fairness or your choices or the parenting plan; it is about your 11 year old trying to figure out how to make life with a BPD dad work out. 

Take care of yourself and your child. 

UBPDX loves 50/50, it was his idea, of course, the 50/50 is organized around HIS hours and days of work and call.

even though was/is a busy family doc with ER call, and I WAS THE STAY AT home primary parent, scraficing MY career.

it works for his compartmentalized world.

It also is a useful concept to manipulate children's minds.

And Im seeing "fair" works both ways... . d11 CAN count. and d11 does not do BPDMATH LOL!

Lessening BPDdad's  ability to manipulate "fair" in child's mind.


Thanks for pointing out the powerlessness part for d11.

Im the one reacting and unhappy with 50/50 wanting more,

Im full of anger and rage at times. (diminishing)

I can admit to it.He never would or did, although he raged for 10 years and still does, noone is allowed to acknowledge it yet... . outloud in my world. I might be "alienating" him.

The story from d11 is " everything is wonderful at dad's all the time forever"

Hmmmmmmmmmm

could he still be in the post divorce idealization phase with d11?

could uBPDx really behave for 3 years during his week on?

I cannot IMAGINE THIS !

I digress into the FOG?

Oh yes... the kids powerless over the rage... .we cannot talk about, because we MUST deny that UBPDDAD has any rage.

its just so sick.

and tiring.

Thanks for those pointers ennie.

This probably does not help a lot, but I so feel your pain.  It is so painful and tiring to hear how great it is at the other parent's home, and then to see with our own eyes how NOT good too much time with that BPD parent is for the child, and then to be told by society and have the CHILD told that it should be "fair."  It should NOT be fair, it should be what is best for the child. 

However, it is really challenging for custody evaluators and courts, with a maximum of 5 hour exposure to the family, to actually perceive the subtle ways an enmeshed child is constantly covering for and elevating that BPD parent, with whom it is too risky to be truthful or to feel anything but devotion. 

I just had my SD's BPD mom's best friend burst all my hopeful myths about how maybe things were okay at mom's... . nope, not okay, and there is very little we can do about it.  We have a legal system that is terrible at seeing NPD/BPD behaviors, because the way the adversarial system works requires that everyone be a little BPD to be effective.  Everyone looks more black and white in court filings.  Grey is not rewarded. 

When I hear about how my SD's mom is driving drunk with them in the car, about how she lied and cheated on the process to determine if she had an alcohol issue after she got a DUI when she was on her way home from the bar to pick up the kids and take them to school on a Tuesday morning, and then BELIEVED the counselor who told her she was not alcoholic, and quit going to any meetings... .

When I hear about the rage, violence, and craziness in that home, so much so that her best friend is telling me and now wants her child only to play at our home... . I just feel so angry that a court cannot do better than that.  I feel angry that my husband was so open with the evaluators, and they trusted him so much and found him to be bonded to the kids, a very sane person, and they followed his request for 50/50 with required counseling, and even when he found BPDmom to be emotionally unstable and that the kids are totally enmeshed, there was no attempt to help the kids out.  I just wish there was something I could do about how hard their lives are at times. 

But I can't. 

I guess this is just an extra big part of the parenting lesson (whether you are a step-parent or bio parent) that there are some pains that we cannot spare the kids, however much we want to.  I am all for people getting more custody when the other parent is mentally ill, but it does not always work out, and sometimes the kids just have to live with that. 

Ouch. 

N/BPDx tries to alienate S12.

A couple of times S12 has evaluated his dad in such a grown-up wise way it took my breath away. ":)ad doesn't believe he has a problem so he thinks he's the victim. I can't help him. If he asked me for help, I would help him, but I don't think he will."

That's almost an exact quote.

All these tactics -- from Warshak's book, to validation, to stuff that I've picked up along the way -- they've been working. S12 does not open up and talk to me directly very often, which could be a boy thing, or else a high-conflict custody survival strategy. But just because your D is not sharing her innermost thoughts and feelings about her dad doesn't mean she doesn't understand the playing field. Our kids are in impossible situations.

One other thing that works for me is to draw parallels between "safe" topics, like peers and teachers. When S12 understands something, or has good instincts, or is able to see that something was one way, but he could see it was actually the other, I point it out. "You notice that Coach says one thing, but does another. You have good instincts." Or, "Your friend said you had to choose between him or other friend, and you decided that was not a fair position to put you in. I am so proud of the way you handled it, you told friend that you liked him, and wanted to be his friend. And that you liked the other friend, and wanted to be friends with both of you without choosing."

Sometimes I will describe situations I'm dealing with. "I have a friend who lied to me about something, and I'm trying to figure out what to do. She is saying something bad about another friend, and it makes me uncomfortable. Have you ever had anything like that happen?"

Also, movies and television. I will watch shows with him and it's amazing how awful the parents are on Nick Jr and Disney channel. Parents are terrible to the kids, parents are terrible to each other. I don't get into a big lecture about it, just point out that the mom did this, and I didn't think the reaction seemed real from the kids or the dad. Wouldn't that hurt if the mom lied to the dad so he couldn't go on vacation with the rest of the family?"