BPDFamily.com

I haven't posted in a while.  Big update is that my H purchased a townhome last week and will close on the property in about 4 weeks.

Things are very hard right now.  I have asserted that there will be a period of no contact - no talk of relationship, etc. for an undetermined amount of time.  Then at that point I will decide whether I am willing or able to try and work through a recovery or relationship reset with him.  He is completely focused on the last half of the sentence I just posted.  I am focused on the first part.

I had a counseling appointment today and I am having a hard time computing in my head how in the world two people who are so dysfunctional (him - BPD and me likely being codependent) can EVER make a relationship work.  I don't want to hurt him.  That is what keeps going through my mind and that is really the only reason I am still with him and he is still living in our house. 

I want a divorce.  Period.  It is imperative for ME that I move on with my life so why do I keep allowing my concern for his well-being to dictate what I do with my life.  H has been putting a lot of pressure on me... . telling me how much he loves me and that he wants/needs me and the kids in his life and that he will make every single change necessary to make that happen.  While I appreciate his passion about it, I think it's too little, too late. 

I saw my counselor today and she had some poignant observations.  First, I had told her that H has been unable to sleep and says his heart and stomach feel "heavy" all the time.  He is clearly under physical duress and she pointed out that he is "trying" so hard to be the opposite of what he has always been that it is having a physical affect on him.  I hadn't thought about that but it makes sense.  She also observed that since we have been through this cycle so many times before that it seems as though maybe the chase is more "thrilling" than the catch.  When he's chasing me and trying to get me to see how much he loves me he gets some very emotional responses from me... . but once he has "caught" me he loses interest and we go back to where we started. 

We haven't told the kids yet that he is moving out but need to do so in the next week or two.  I am just so stressed out about all of this.  I just want him to walk out of the house and not have to deal with any of it.  He has been the "perfect" dad and the boys at least seem to be reacting positively to it.  My daughter is having none of it, however.  Counselor thinks that the way he is treating the boys is another way of exerting control into the situation... . by being the perfect dad he is "showing" me that he can be good and therefore adding to my guilt by getting the boys to react positively to his interactions.

It is all very confusing.  I have been in this state of flux since January 24.  I was supposed to be halfway through the waiting period for the divorce by now.  I am just so stressed out!

So, I guess I just have to endure another month of living under the same roof with him.  It's hard to set boundaries with him because even when I do, he has a way of crossing the boundaries without me realizing it and before I know it he has sucked me in to his control.  I feel powerless... .

Just a few more weeks... . trying to stay strong... .

I forgot to add that I feel so angry, scared, and sad.

I am scared that I will never experience a healthy relationship because of the damage he has done and that I have allowed him to do.  I am scared that I won't recognize the difference between someone acting in a way that is emotionally unhealthy for me and someone doing something simply out of love or caring.  Because, one can be disguised as the other.  And how do I make sure I'm not acting in a way that is facilitating something that isn't healthy for me?

I'm angry that I'm in this situation... . both at my H and at myself.

Although I don't have kids involved, my situation is somewhat similar. She is moving around the end of April beginning of May. Already has a replacement. Home life has been hell and I find myself scared and also looking forward to just being done with it. It is clear to me that she needs to justify leaving in whatever way possible and that usually means finding some reason to be livid with me. The lack of fairness is unbelievable. She asks that we be in an open relationship and I finally told her to do that, as if she needed my blessing anyway, but that I didn't want to be involved in it. Well she continues to treat me like a boyfriend, all the ups and downs, while she gets to do whatever and whomever she wants. Her views on me have become increasingly polarized and it is amazing how crazy it makes you feel. Even though she is leaving, I still have the gloomy feeling that I'm never getting out of this. I have also been very upset with myself for allowing any of this to continue. 6 or 7 years of my life went to someone who could not give me a stable enough foundation to want to continue with marriage or kids. I have never been able to move beyond making things right for that next step. I imagine she wanted it so bad because it would be all the harder for me to leave.

Not to minimize your situation at all, but I wish my H had a replacement for me.  He is so laser focused on keeping me in his life that it is overwhelming.  He is an extremely intense person and when I am used to basically getting NO attention from him except negative attention for the past several years it really is almost impossible to handle.

I'm starting to see him crack.  He is physically a mess.  He is starting to complain about his counselor and that an hour a week isn't enough time to figure this all out.  This is what happened when I told him I wanted a divorce 4 years ago.  He started counseling, went to 3 appointments then stopped going because they just weren't helping him.  The difference was that I gave in to his begging and crying the last time so there was no motivation to continue to go... he had already held his spot with me, so to speak.

I've been reading about codependency and realize I have a lot to learn but I don't even know what boundaries to set with him let alone set them. 

I just don't know if it's a good idea to keep going on on the idea of the separation and holding off on the divorce.  He is going to lose it either way and I don't know if it's really any better to prolong the agony for him.

Good luck Bulgakov... .  it sounds like you need it just like me.  Prayers and hugs to you... . 

nevaeh,

I feel relieved to read your most recent post on this thread. It's so hard for people to trust their gut instinct when they come to the point you have reached, but it does seem you know what that instinct is saying:


Can you have a session or two with a counselor yourself to help you take the next step? (I am absolutely no expert on this, but a pattern I've seen very often on this forum is people trying to be kind at a time like this and indeed prolonging pain and stress for themselves and their spouses.)

And give yourself a big pat on the back for all you've accomplished so far. It's huge.

Hi KateCate... . 

I have been seeing my counselor weekly since January (and three times in October-November) and that is really ALL we have talked about... . how do I leave or get him to leave.  If you were to read some of my initial posts on here you would see that my biggest fear and obstacle was how to accomplish this one step... . how to leave him.  I knew from past experience that physically separating from him would be hard.  I just didn't anticipate it being quite this hard.  I had told a handful of friends about my plans and that has really kept me accountable, but I still have to own the fact that I have backed off of my initial intent, which was divorce, and told him I would consider holding off on the divorce if he was committed to getting help.  

My counselor and I spoke yesterday about this again and there is a part of me that feels I should just tell him I'm done and file the divorce papers now so he doesn't have false hopes.  However if I do that then he is still in the house with me for at least another 3 weeks.  Sure, I could take my kids and go find something temporary but it's not that easy to just move 4 people for a few weeks.

Last night H was exhibiting anger towards me, although not in his "old" ways.  He was sulking and slamming things around, etc.  This was triggering me so I asked him what was wrong.  He responded that he is tired of me being so "cold" to him.  I asked him how many times must we have this discussion?  I have told him I want a divorce but have agreed to try the separation first... . he tells me 5000 times a day how much he loves me and how much he wants me in his life.  He tells me (again) how difficult this is for him because I am not "willing" to give him any kind of guarantees about how this will end for us.  When I reiterate that I'm not willing to give guarantees he asks me if I've REALLY thought this through... . he said, "have you really thought about how this impacts our family and our kids?"  My response was "What do you think I have been DOING all of these years?  All I have thought about is my kids and family and I have done what I thought best for them and for you (H) and all along I have ignored what is best for me! It is so unfair for you to ask me if I've thought about how this affects our family!"  He promptly apologized but we have had this conversation over and over again and it doesn't sink in.

I am trying to work through in my head how I stop worrying about his feelings over my own.  Because that's really what is happening here.  There really is no part of me that wants to be with him anymore.  I can't continue to live under this cloud.

So, KateCate... . I so appreciate your good wishes and for the virtual pat on the back!   :)  I am just taking things day by day... . that's all I can do.

nevaeh,

I have read a good number of your earlier posts and have an idea of the great accomplishment it has been to get where you are today |iiii, but I completely forgot that you were regularly seeing a counselor.

Your husband sounds like he fits one of the patterns that seem to play out in "leaving" situations. It's the one where the guy who can never seem really to hear his wife and her pleas for change goes on a mission to be the perfect husband (just when it's really kind of too late). He goes on a "mission." And if he's a guy with military experience , he really knows how to go on a mission.  But he still can't really hear anything his wife is saying, and some elements of his mission can trample her boundaries further, strikingly. (Like breaking into her work space unauthorized to do reconnaissance work.) There are usually some excellent examples of lack of empathy at this time. And it sounds as though you're seeing them. He truly may not grasp what you see as objectionable in his behavior.

I wonder if you would see yourself in this (anonymous) woman's post:

AAAhhhhhh... .  been there.  Did it.  I did it after counseling one day though.  I said I need to gracefully bow out of the relationship because it was killing me.  He did EXACTLY what yours did - say all the right things... .  tell you they love you more than anything.  NOW they understand the hurt you have... .  on and on.  Funny how you say he went into social worker mode.  Mine all of a sudden was using words, phrases, all the things we'd been hearing in MC for months. 

And I listened.  And tried to keep my resolve.  But it broke down little by little.  And he kept "trying" to be on his best behavior.  And kept trying to help with a little housework.  And you could see him thinking negative, hurtful thoughts but he wouldn't say them... .  just bite his tongue and give me a sneer or dirty look instead.

It took all of a few days for things to start sliding again.  And then last Friday it was our son's 6th birthday and H decided to lay on the couch with his eyes closed while I got everything ready, wrapped the presents, planned the party... .  you name it.  Then he got irritated because my son's cake (which he picked out) was Oreo cake - and he can't eat wheat - so no cake for him.  And then he pouted through 80% of dinner at Red Robin and wouldn't talk or look at me or barely the kids the whole time.

So, I know that he may not realize what he's doing and he may not be "doing it intentionally" as he calls it.  But he can't keep up the facade of a happy, loving, caring, person for more than a few days before he sinks back to his narcissistic, abusive ways. 

I guess I would say that you can hold tight to your decision knowing that you have every right in this world to end your relationship or you can see how it pans out for a little bit.  BUT we don't deserve anything less than respect and love and true partnership and I wish I had just held to my guns that day because now I have to do it all over again.  They have this amazing way of not actually believing what you're telling them because how could we actually stand up for ourselves and leave the craziness when we've been in it for so long?  Because we love ourselves and we are finally realizing that their words are meaningless in the face of action.

I think the details of each situation will be quite different, but maybe truly understanding that this type of partner will continue to be who he is and continue to think the way he thinks, will help you with further decision making. Maybe it will be less agonizing to decide within yourself whether you can continue to be married to a man who struggles with these traits--and maybe you can--than to cling to hope that his thought processes can change in a meaningful way.

Added: I can really see how divorce, should you do it, will be very hard. Your husband seems clearly to be one of the "faithful" ones. The ones who can't imagine life without their wife and children (not withstanding any war zone dalliances, etc.)  :'(

KateCat... .

First... . thank you for your response.  Yes!  I see myself completely in that anonymous woman's post.  H has done it before.  He has kept up the charade for months.  Then, on a dime, he snaps and he's back to his old ways.  And, unfortunately I'm back to my own coping mechanisms as well.  It's a nasty cycle.


Yes, this is a very good observation.  It is a big question of whether I can handle the future with him knowing that the shoe could drop at any time OR if I will be better off walking away and knowing that I made the decision for myself that I wasn't willing to live with that uncertainty.

And, yes, when he tells me he can't imagine life without us, I ask him then how have you lived the last 18 years not really "seeing" us?  He appreciates what he can't have more than what he does have.  He's sure he can change but I don't believe him.  It's just heartbreaking to watch him come to these realizations in front of my eyes.

nevaeh,

I can really understand your sadness and anger and fedupness with this situation.  How agonizing to go through this and feel almost trapped in your own home.  I truly think that physically changing your environment is a very important step you must take.  It will help you be able to step back for just a second and breathe. 

My brother once said something very wise to me that I have never forgotten, and I'll paraphrase.  "You need to leave, for yourself... .  but you also need to leave, for him."  He can't discover his own strength or willingness to change as long as you are there to enable the behavior that keeps him stuck.  It's a gift to him, as well as you and your children. 

We're here for you, you can get through this. 

heartandwhole... . 

Oh, how right you are... . I need him to be physically away from me.  I feel completely suffocated and unable to think my own thoughts or explore my own feelings.  This is further illustrated by the fact that when I am not physically near him (in the same building/location) I feel strong and I think clearly.  I know what I want and feel confident that I am strong enough to make "it" happen.  Then as soon as I am in his presence I completely fall apart and all of my focus goes back to him.  It's maddening and I obviously can't fix that part of me if I continue to be around him.  I just keep telling myself... . just tolerate a few more weeks... . but it is so incredibly hard!  I work late every night just to avoid going home.  I don't feel like I can go anywhere once I get home for fear that I will hurt his feelings for not wanting to be around him.  I do feel trapped.  I have felt trapped for years.  I just don't see how I can build this into something different or better.

I love what your brother said, it is so true.  I have told my H several times (I mean SEVERAL) that this separation will be good for him as well and as hard as it is for him to see that now, he needs to look at it in that way.  He told me the other night that I am like a drug to him... . I admit I freaked a bit about that and told him that it bothers me that he would verbalize that's how he feels about me... . that he shouldn't view me that way and that just shows the level of dysfunction in our relationship.  So I completely agree with your brother.  

My mantra of late has been... . "Today is today.  :)eal with tomorrow, tomorrow.  One step at a time, that's all you can do."

One important realization I made is that part of the reason this whole situation is so difficult for me is that I am not automatically falling into my worst "habit" of the past, which would have been to soothe him when I could see he "needed" to be soothed in order to be calm and "normal".  This is very uncomfortable for me, because it's not my normal way of doing things.  In the past when I saw he was getting mad I would do whatever I could to control the environment to try and prevent him from continuing to get mad.  If I saw he was upset or anxious I would do or say whatever I needed to in order to get him calmed down so that he would be calm and "normal".  Experience has taught me that when he isn't calm and normal, bad things happen.  I'm still very much at risk for my behavior and am seeing when I do it now, where I didn't necessarily recognize it before.  I find myself giving him a hug when he is asking for a hug because he wants a hug and I know it will make him feel better.  I allow him to tell me he loves me over and over because I know it makes him feel better, even though it makes me feel awful.  I am still continuing to add to my uncomfortable feelings so that he will feel better.  This is what I have to fix and it will be much easier when he is gone.  What I worry about is that if we were to try and get back together I will automatically fall in to those old patterns.  I just don't see how it could play out any other way.  All I can do is make the small changes I can as I see them happen.  One day at a time... . that's all I can do.

Isn't this a profound and terrible mystery? I recently read that the first two clients of Lundy Bancroft (author of Why Does He Do That?) were Harvard professors.  I don't suppose I should be surprised, as my father behaved like the men described in his book, and my father was also a professor.

heartandwhole's advice seems really sound to me. Having your own separate physical and mental space at this time seems crucial. I know it's too easy to say something like " . . . and then let the marriage take its natural course." Because it sounds as though he's going to fight tooth and nail.

Thank goodness the two of you are hard working, frugal, and great planners. Otherwise the "two residences" option would not even be on the table.

Hi nevaeh,

I had a very, very similar conversations with my xBPDh (complete with sulking and slamming) as well, again, and again, and again. What I didn't fully recognize at the time is that he was just trying to put all the responsibility/blame for his behaviour back onto me (see above!), in a very subtle but maddening way. I think it's called being a waif (?). It's maddening, and it does play right into our enabling natures.

I appreciate your point KateCat re. professors. My ex isn't a professor, but he's a medical professional with many, many letters after his name (which he adds as a signature to EVERY personal e-mail he sends - did I mention his NPD traits?). These men are very clever and able to get what they need from us in ways that are hard to recognize when you're in the middle of it.

I also 100% agree with Heartandwhole's comment. Hang in there until he moves out and you can physically separate, and in the meantime try to avoid him as much as possible. When I was in a similar spot and xBPDh kept bringing stuff up, I just kept saying "talk to your psychologist about that, I can't help you with it". It didn't really help him (it might have actually made him angrier), but it helped me to remember not to engage. I also would regularly walk out of the room and even jumped out of our car and ran down the street to try to get away from these crazy, circular arguments. It's giving me a headache just thinking about it. HANG IN THERE, it'll get better very soon! I'm not saying it'll be over (I'm heading to court on April 9 to start a whole other battle), but at least when you are on your own, you'll have room to breathe and think and get out from under the huge burden of stress.

nevaeh,

   It is so good to hear from you. I have been wondering how you are doing. I get so much support when I read your posts because it's like I wrote them. So when I am confused, like right now, it's like reading a copy of my own emotions.   I am glad you are staying with your decision to leave. That is the hardest decision of all.

Another long weekend.  On Friday night H came home with a flyer from a house for sale down the street and started questioning his decision to buy the townhome.  Basically the whole weekend turned into a conversation about our "options" for housing.  We talked about it for over an hour Saturday morning until I left to go to my sister's house.  Then when I got home around midnight we talked about it again until 3 am.  Then when I got up we talked about it again and then went to look at four different houses in town.  He didn't like any of them.  We live in a new, large, beautiful home that we built 5 years ago.  He hasn't said it directly, but I know he is feeling it is unfair that he has to move and "lower his standard of living" while I get to stay in the house.  After we returned home from looking at the houses we talked for another two hours about what we should do.  I told him I wanted to think about it and was tired of constantly talking through all of the scenarios.

I hung out with S9 for a while and we watched a movie.  When it was time for bed H asked if I had decided yet.  I asked what he wanted to do and he said he didn't know.  I first told him that he could stay in our house and that I would move to my sister's house as that would be easier and less emotionally traumatic for him.  But then he said... . but then we'll have to pay $1500 rent every month and I don't know if I want to spend that much... . so I said OK then stay on track to get the townhome and I'll stay in the house.  He said he doesn't want to live in the town where the townhome is because he wants to be near the kids.  This is the same exact circle we had been going in the entire weekend and I snapped.  I got really angry and said "there IS no solution that you will accept!"  So I told him to decide what he wanted to do and my next move would be determined by his.  He pushed away the decision and laid on the guilt again by saying, "I really just want to be here with you and the kids so that I can show you how I can be better. I don't want to leave."

I reminded him that in the days following the day I told him I wanted a divorce I had been telling him that the longer he delayed leaving me and the more he pushed me to give him another chance, the more I would pull away.  He didn't accept what I told him and now that has happened.  I have emphasized that there will be a period of no contact of AT LEAST a month.  He is freaking out about that and keeps trying to get me to change the definition of no contact (which is no discussion about feelings, our relationship, the past, the future, or our own personal counseling sessions as well as no showing of affection (the reason for this is that every time I get within 6 feet of him he pulls me in and gives me hugs and tries to kiss me and he always wants to hold my hand as well as sit "near" him on the couch.  I told him last night that he has completely suffocated me to the extent that all I can think about is getting away from him so I can breathe.

He point-blank asked me several times about whether I honestly think we will get back together or if this is going to be permanent.  I answered as honestly as I could in saying that I have serious, serious doubts as to whether this will work out, reminding him that until I can get away from him I an unable to think clearly at all about what I want for the future.  In a discussion about "other" relationships he asked if I had thought about seeing other people.  I told him I would by lying if I hadn't thought about the possibility of starting a new relationship with someone without all of the baggage... . a fresh start.  That upset him, of course. 

The conversation started again about what to do about the housing situation and it appeared we would continue to have the circular argument.  So, after yelling at him and trying to pin him down on something I said I was done discussing it and I was going to sleep.  He got frustrated with me and said that it hurt him that I didn't want to spend the time talking through it with him.  WOW... . that triggered me... . I said again, I spent probably a total of 8 hours talking with you about this all weekend and we haven't come to any decisions and we keep talking about the same thing over and over.  I said I was done and was going to bed.  He got up and left the room and came back 10 minutes later and said he was going to continue with the townhome and I would stay in our house with the kids.  I'm guessing he will change his mind again today so I'm mentally preparing myself for that.  I have about 3-4 more weeks of this to deal with.  (silent scream!)

I tried to make it very clear to him that the no-contact part of the separation for me is a time when I am going to decide whether I'm willing to even entertain the idea of healing our relationship.  From where I sit now it is highly doubtful that I will miss him and want him back in my life.  I do feel horrible about all of this and really don't want to hurt him but he has taken me to the edge of sanity too many times. 

One day at a time... . that's all I can do, right?

Thanks everyone for your support!

Gee, what else can he subject you to? (Apart from waterboarding, I mean. )

No kidding... . I think I'd rather take the waterboarding.  I'm starting to miss the days of the silent treatment that I would get after having a fight. 

"waverider," advisor on the Staying boards, has written some powerful descriptions in the past couple of weeks of his understanding of "lack of empathy." They are a worthwhile read. He gives such a mature and non-judgmental perspective of the behaviors of people who lack empathy. At the same time, his posts don't pull any punches about what it all means.

I think you're living the tragedy of your husband's lack of empathy at this very time. And, as waverider says, it's nothing personal. Your husband can probably only barely get an occasional glimpse of what all this might be doing to you. Gaah!

I'm sorry to offer another "option", but why doesn't he just rent a place? Or rent your sister's place? Making this into a permanent decision is becoming part of the problem here, I think. He needs to be out, now, and he can sit in the rental place and think about what house he might want to buy. I see this as another way to keep you trapped, by making it "too difficult" to move out. ANY PLACE WILL DO. The end of the month is coming - can you set a deadline that he must be out by April 1, and he has to decide (without you) where he's going to end up? My ex ended up at his parents, until they couldn't take it any more and booted him out. At least they had to deal with the housing decisions and not me! He could even stay in a hotel for a week or two, but setting a deadline and putting your foot down will help this along, in my opinion!

Oh... .  Cdn... .  You are so right!

Actually, he is continuing with the townhome purchase.  It is cheaper than paying rent and we live in a college town so the lease terms are August 1 to July 31.  If he were to sublease something now he would only be covered through July 31.  Leasing for next year (starting August 1) is going on right now so he would also have to sign a one-year lease to keep his apartment.  If he didn't sign the lease now then he would lose the apartment because student housing is very limited right now.

I like the idea of the townhome because it is a bit more permanent.  Mainly because I don't have to feel pressured by a lease end date and having that force any decisions about him potentially "coming back".  Also, if we divorce then he has a place and I can put our house up for sale and not worry about him delaying the sale of the house which would prevent me from being able to purchase a different house myself.  I am heavily leaning towards the fact that we will not reconcile so I am also trying to cover my bases a bit for when that happens.

We talked about him renting my sister's place, but she can't stand him and there is no way she would want him living in her house. 

The loan on the townhome should close in about 3 weeks so he will be out around April 1.  This has gone on way too long, I agree!  H doesn't have any friends or family close by and he is so humiliated by the fact that we are going to be separated that he does not want to ask anyone he knows for help.  He hasn't told a lot of people what is going on. 

This has been an incredibly frustrating process.  I don't know how I have stayed mentally sane. 

A friend who is dealing with similar issues pointed out that H is likely very sincere about his commitment to change.  The difficult part is that due to the BPD he has little control and it will likely seep back in despite the fact that he wants to change.  History tells me what to expect.  So, for the future, I have to choose whether to believe the facts (what's happened over and over again) and what he is telling me.  I know what lies ahead of me if I were to eventually accept him back and I don't want that life anymore. 

Thanks for adding your two cents!  I appreciate it!

So glad that the house purchase is going ahead - a permanent solution is better.

Your friend is right - my ex was sincere about changing too (many, many times), but at the end, when the reality of the situation sank in (i.e. I wasn't going to have him back) he dropped all the counselling, courses, religion, etc. that he had taken up. As my therapist said, trying to change in order to "win" someone back will never be effective. Only when a person can see and accept that they need to change for their own wellbeing and happiness can progress and growth happen. That's what happened to me, and that's what's happening to you right now. Keep it up, it's worth it!

Cdn... .

If you were standing here I would give you a hug.  Thank you so much for saying that.  The emotional toll of all of this is starting to get to me and it's nice to have someone just say... . keep going, you're doing the right thing.

So... .

((hugs))

nevaeh, just wanted to add in my support.  You are indeed doing the right thing! Keep it up.  Know that there will be some tough times ahead.  Even with all of the heartache I endured, I still had moments of almost caving over this past year.  I had lots of family support and some close friends, friends who knew my ex very well, since their childhood, and they were also supporting me.  These boards were also helpful in helping me get down to my core, feel some old, bottled up emotions, and let them go, and to be able to see the truth of the disorder.

I just wanted to tell you that I am so happy to be claiming a small part of my life for myself, that the chaos in my emotions is finally evening out, that I am starting to see clearly, out of the FOG, and it is a wonderful, wonderful thing.  If I can do this, you can!

      

Wow nevaeh,  your courage is very admirable.  You are also writing my story as I now struggle to leave my 21+ year marriage, 4 kids.  I actually finally told him this in the presence of his T, and denial continues.  Enter superhuman idealization. What has helped me is detachment and silence when conversation happens, unless it has to do with the kids at present.  I have let go of the notion that he can understand. And that's going to have to be ok.  I have also stopped taking responsibility for actions that he should be responsible for. As a recovering codependent and ACOA I excelled at fixing and taking on the roles of others. For example, my uBPDH asked me to make an appointment for him with his T when I saw him (I was seeing his T solo, another story). Normally, I would do it. I clearly said I would let him know that he was trying to get in touch, but I would NOT be responsible for scheduling his appointment.  Enabling him is not healthy for me or him. It feels strange setting my boundaries.  I never felt worthy of that.  With practice I am beginning to learn that it is my path to serenity. My oxygen mask first, then I can aid others. Someone also shared with me yesterday, if a lifeguard doesn't secure themselves before saving a drowning victim, they both drown. Hmmm.

I noticed last week that my mind would not stop racing.  That was a sign that I was not taking care of myself. I was everywhere but the present. As soon as I was able to bring myself back to today and hand the rest over to my Higher Power, things magically began to fall into place and I got that feeling of being guided. I cannot hear that when my head is too noisy, so quiet is essential for me. What is it that you need to do to make a connection? I needed to let go of control. One more thing I wanted to share that was written by a non in another post: "I don't want to abandon someone because I know how it feels to be abandonded".  Wow. This certainly moved me and I may need to examine that. I wonder if you can relate to it as well?  You are doing the right thing nevaeh.  "To thine own self be true".  I will be following you. Thank you for sharing your strength.

Landslide... .  The letters in green were like a punch in the stomach.  Yes, those words moved me greatly.  It sums up one of the major reasons I have stayed with H so long.  I have visited this topic with my counselor as well.  She asked me to remember all of the times before that I wanted to leave H (the times that I actually saw a lawyer and was ready to leave) and think about what made me stay.  My answer is that I didn't want to hurt him.  The reality and weight of that statement has been lost on me before, but now that I have finally decided to put my well-being first, I won't allow myself to be caught up in that again. 

I had some very poignant wake up calls over the past year.  Something clicked and I realized that my life was literally at stake.  I realized and owned up to how miserable I was and that it was on me to fix that or I would waste the one life I am given being miserable and I absolutely don't want to do that.

I also am a very good "fixer"... .  well at least I try to fix everything and control my surroundings to keep everyone (mostly H) level and happy.  Except I wasn't happy, I was just miserable.  You point out some good reminders about even little things that I might do to take care of others when they should be caring for themselves.

I can completely relate to the mind racing thing.  I think my brain was in overdrive for much of 2013.  I couldn't concentrate on anything and all I did was think about all of the possible scenarios for leaving and all of the possible reactions by H.  Literally this went on over and over for more than a year.  I was scared to death to make a move and those racing thoughts almost were my comfort.  However, once I took action and finally told H what I want/need, those racing thoughts stopped.  It's still upsetting and I feel badly for H because he is really hurting, but for me I see things so much more clearly.

I will be following you as well, Landslide.  I will be pulling for you as you go on your journey as well.   


Stjarna... .  Thank you for your message as well.  Your story reinforces that there IS a light at the end of the tunnel.  I also have a lot of support from friends and family and I will continue to lean on them as long as they will let me.  They know enough about my situation that if I start to cave they will pull me back.  I have set it up so I would be accountable to them and the only way that I would possibly go back to H would be if there were monumental changes.  Even then, I'm just not sure.

The biggest step for me is being free of him for a while.  I have strong doubts that he will abide by my no contact terms.  I discussed with my counselor yesterday that this is precisely why I put the terms in place, because I need to see how serious he really is about getting help.  I'm afraid his only goal is getting me back and that everything he talks about with his counselor is to that end.  I told my counselor yesterday that I just don't think he is introspective and honest (with himself) enough to really dig deep enough to get to the heart of the issues.  It makes me sad (for him) but I can't continue to be bogged down in that.

Anyway... .  thanks again for your support.

Landslide and nevaeh,

I too used to feel that I shouldn't abandon my uBPDxh, but I now realize that I abandoned myself, meeting my own needs, and compassion for myself in order to stay in my co-dependant marriage.

The thing is, my ex was a bottomless pit -- I poured love and "fixing" in, and got nothing in return except a trip to the edge of my sanity and into a terrible depression. I can relate to both of your comments, but in my case the best thing that I could do for myself, my kids and my ex was to put an end to the dysfunctional, toxic loop.

I'm 2 years out tomorrow and my kids have THRIVED. I am feeling much, much improved and am still working through some PTSD stuff with my T. When I read your very familiar stories I see how far I've come. Leaving was the hardest, best thing I've ever done.

Wishing you both strength, peace and love!

CdnSunrise

Thank you cdn. I needed that dose of medicine today. The stories and progress and struggles of others and how they have(are) overcom(ing) has been a priceless gift!  I am grateful.

A lot of our situations with BPD husbands are similar (and different from the men on this board dealing with BPD women).  My ex-H (recent divorce) really really tried hard to change.  As you just said, it's sincere that he wants to, not so likely that he can.  I wish they could invent a drug for BPD.  It might not solve all the problems, but we could all be families again and not feel this unnatural shattering of the family unit we dreamed of all our lives.

My husband really wants to come home - and like you, I'm codependent and made things SO easy for him.  So in a way, I really did hurt him, because I created this very comfortable life where he didn't have to deal with his issues.  I even gave him foot rubs almost every night!  Now he's out floating and he's in therapy and medicated and sometimes he seems more dysregulated than ever before.

The difference in my situation is that he does things that are unhealthy for the kids.  He doens't have them that often, but it worries me.

Haven't read your other threads.  What kind of custody are you trying for?  Are you sorry you didn't leave sooner?  Are the kids ok with it?  I still entertain thoughts sometimes of "Maybe he'll be a lot better someday," but I don't know that it can happen.  I am codependent and very shy, and being alone for the rest of my life scares me too, especially when I found someone who (SOME of the time) was a good match for me.

momtara... .

My H has done things that are unhealthy for the kids their entire lives.  A lot of emotional abuse and some borderline physical abuse.  Of course since I told him I wanted a divorce he has been trying really hard to be the perfect dad.

My D16 knows what is going on with the separation and has actually been "pushing" me to do this since she was about 13.  She is extremely skeptical of his new behavior and actually seems to be more angry at him now than she was before because she doesn't trust the way he is being.  Her history also tells her different and experience has taught her that you don't ever let your guard down because as soon as you do, he's right there back at it with his crazy behavior.

S13 and S9 don't know what is going on yet but I know they are suspecting something is up.  We will tell them in the next couple of weeks.  S13 is the one who has received the most abuse over the years but is also the one who seems to be "eating up" H's new persona the most.  I guess for S13, its a nice reprieve from the way he's always been treated so he's taking it. 

If you have some time you could go back and read some of my old posts as I described a lot about things that happened between H and kids.  It has been ugly at times.

After I told H I wanted a divorce and then agreed on the separation, H first tried pushing for a "shared" separation, meaning we would take turns living at the "other" home - he would live in our home with the kids for 1-2 weeks and I would live there the rest of the time.  I absolutely refused to compromise on that and told him I would not do it and that I was not doing a shared custody situation.  The kids would live with me, period, and he could see them whenever he wanted to.  They would go to bed in my house and they would wake up in my house (except for weekend visits to his house).  He pushed REALLY hard on this point but I would not back down.  I basically told him he could accept my terms or I was filing for divorce, that's how far my heels were dug in.  He didn't understand why I was being so unfair.  It took some pretty frank and blunt conversations to get him to understand the damage he has inflicted on his kids and that I have been not only their mother but also their protector (from him).  To leave them in his control for 1-2 weeks a months just based on the "promise" that he was a changed man was absolutely not going to happen.  He finally backed down on this after bringing it up several times and I shot him down every single time.

Anyway, so the custody during the separation will be me as the custodial parent and he will have visitation.  Since we are just going to be separated at first, keeping finances combined, H will not pay child support.  If, however, I file for divorce then finances will be split at that time and he will need to pay child support. 

momtara... . I can't remember how long you said you had been married and how old your kids are? 

Do I wish I would have left earlier?  Very good question.  Sometimes, yes.  But the main reason I didn't was because I didn't want to risk the kids having to spend too much time with him when they were younger and less able to (1) vocalize and share their experiences with their dad and (2) be able to "vote with their feet" so to speak.  I have tried really hard to make their lives as normal as possible and always tried to do things with them when H wasn't around.  We are a completely different family unit when H isn't there as compared to when he is.  When he is there everyone is quiet and somber... . when it is just the four of us (me and kids) we laugh and we are very relaxed.  I think when you leave is a personal choice and is largely based on the circumstances particularly with the kids.  My H is very high functioning and I was afraid he would be able to convince a judge that there was nothing wrong with him and he was a great dad and I would have to do shared custody with him.   I was not willing to take that risk so I rode it out.

Hopefully I answered your questions... .

Thinking of you, momtara... . if there is anything else I can do to help please let me know. 

I'm glad you were able to ride it out.  I would have stuck it out longer if I could.  My kids are both under 4.  It was just getting impossible to take care of them with him around dictating.  Didn't get physical yet, but he was pretty controlling.

I think you did the right thing and are doing the right thing still.

The odd part is that when my exH is in a good mood, I fantasize that he can get better.  Then he changes again.  No matter how many times he changes, I still get hopeful.  I must be really codependent and a sucker!  That said, I could never get back together with him in the next few years.   

We were married around 7 years, just divorced a few months ago.  I can't come to terms with the idea of divorce.  He called me an ex wife and it sounded like something out of a movie about Baby Boomers.

In my situation, it was my stb xBPDh's behaviour with the kids that pushed me over the edge and I insisted that he leave. nevaeh, your description of the family of 4 vs. the family of 5 is EXACTLY what I experienced. And guess what -- now it's just the 4 of us for 80% of the time, that's the way our family is in my home -- relaxed, fun, and able to be ourselves all the time. It's night and day, and it's wonderful. So much less stressful, it's hard to describe.

Do I wish I left sooner -- yes, very much so. I wish the kids didn't have to experience/bear witness to the abuse that they did. (Kids are d12, s10 and s7) But I've also forgiven myself for that -- it's been a long process, but I know know in my heart that I did the best I could with what I knew at the time. I didn't even know about BPD, support groups, message boards, or anything else when I left. I just did the best I could with the knowledge I had at the time, and I did reach out and got therapy and "transitional" support from the local women's shelter (VERY, very helpful!).

Re. being alone (i.e. not in a relationship with an SO), I'm concentrating on my relationship with myself, which was severely neglected because I was so busy just surviving and trying to protect my kids.

Re. thinking that my stb ex will change -- I totally lost hope somewhere along the line. Too many chances given and promises made that weren't kept. And of course my enabling behaviour to try to "fix" things for him didn't help matters.

My situation now is that I'm still not divorced. The financial/dividing of assets just finished in December, so I filed for divorce since we've been separated for 2 years and we have a separation agreement. Instead of negotiating any changes to the custody/support through our lawyers, my stb ex is taking me to court. My lawyer was very surprised, because it makes no sense. I'm not sure what he  thinks he can change by taking it to a judge, but I'm sure it's about money. I think he's going to ask for 50/50 custody (from 80/20), even though in 2 years, he's never once asked for more time with the kids. He has never been an involved dad, and the only thing I can figure is that he doesn't want to pay support any more. I'm going to fight tooth and nail against this change though, not for the money but because I don't think he should have them one minute more than he does now. I think my best argument is that he was diagnosed with a couple of mental illnesses 2 years ago (OCD and antisocial personality disorder, according to what his sister told me) and as far as I know he hasn't sought any treatment or therapy since he figured out that he could never "win" me back.

Landslide, nevaeh - it's worth it. Keep fighting for yourself in whatever way you can and the rewards will be there. It won't be easy, it'll be incredibly painful, but SO worth it for your sake and for your kids. Momtara, I hope you become more comfortable with being by yourself - you are enough just as you are and once you come to terms with that, I'm sure there'll be a new and healthier relationship for you in the future (and for me, I hope!).

Landslide - re. your drowning analogy above, I just read this quote today and it really struck me:

Choose to Swim

"I think there is a moment when you’re in the deepest depths of despair where you have to make a choice of whether you’re going to save yourself and swim towards the surface, or just let yourself drown. I chose to swim, and from that moment on I started learning how to take care of myself."

–Susannah Conway

Thank you, cdn and nevaeh. Day by day.  When I am able to trust, which is what I am learning and practicing, the path of my truth becomes more certain. If I allow myself to be humbled by the lessons and challenges, I am able to find the worth in the process. You have provided awesome support by sharing your insight

News flash... .

He wants to cancel the purchase of the town home and buy a different house in town.

I am so incredibly frustrated and have no words.

My best option is to move me and the kids to my sister's house, put our house up for sale and tell him to stay there until it's sold and then he can buy a house wherever he wants.  I also see that the only real outcome here is divorce so I need to file papers.  Rip the band aid off and be done with it.

I feel really deflated today. 

Omg, nevaeh.  My heart just sunk when I read that. Have you breathed any fire into his words?  How did you react when you found out?  How did you find out ?  I will be praying for you.

I'm so sorry nevaeh. In my experience, you will be caught in the same hell and worse if you don't make the move yourself. Be strong, YOU CAN DO IT! It's SO SO worth it. The battles aren't over, but at least you have a peaceful home base from which to operate and regroup, and start to heal. Sending lots of positive energy your way. They are YOUR boundaries, and you have to set them. I know how hard it is, trust me, but it's worth it.

       

CdnSunrise

So, Wednesday night was when H told me he was thinking about backing out of the town home.  This was after he had shown signs of getting ready to rage/dysregulate.  I was getting anxious because I could see it in his body language and in his eyes.  It got very close a few times and we argued about all of this.  He then left for a few hours.

When he told me about the housing situation I was just so angry.  I really didn't even know what to say. 

Yesterday I spoke with H briefly at work and told him that I was done with the back and forth and that I'm moving to my sister's house in two weeks.  He said we've already discussed that and we can't afford it.  He wants to buy the other house in town and he wants to show me the numbers.

So, I get home and we sit down and look at the numbers.  The other house he is looking at would cost him about $1350/month.  My sister was going to charge me $1500 in rent.  I said I might as well just move to her house since it will cost almost as much.  I asked him how long it would take to close on the other house and he said probably at least 30 days... . another 30 days (or more, likely) that I would be living with him.  I just cried.  I can't do another month or month and a half of this!

The bottom line is that if I would just decide what to do then this would be easier because we would know what the end result might be.  I want divorce.  So why in the heck am I having such a hard time just saying that?  I know... . it's because I can't handle being with him in the same house after I've told him.  He has too much power over me.  His emotions take over mine.  But, the reality of the situation is that he has a strong feeling that I'm not really serious about reconciling (I'm not) and that this is going to end in divorce.  My mom and sister are putting their 2 cents in and they say it's time for me to take control of my life and just get this done.  They are right.

My sister's house will be ready to occupy in the next 2-3 weeks.

I know it will upset my boys terribly to move (but really, it's only a few blocks from our current house).  I know in my heart I just need to tell him I'm done, file the paperwork, and move.  It will be easier to sell the house with only one person living in it.  He won't have to physically move until the house is sold.  There are a few little repairs that need to happen and he is in a better place to do those if he is at the house. 

My sister also asked me if I would change the locks when he left.  She said she could see him getting lonely after he moves out and just deciding to come see me in the middle of the night.  The thought of that is actually a bit scary.  If I move to her house there is no chance of him getting in.

Last night he was back to being the caring, loving husband.  It drives me crazy how he can flip flop back and forth. 

My counselor said that she is concerned for me because when I am with her I sound strong and everything I say is logical and I say I can do it.  Then when I come back the following week and tell her what happened, she sees that right now I am simply unable/incapable of setting any boundaries whatsoever with him while we are living together.  That fact alone is what makes me realize that we will never be able to have a healthy relationship.  It is too risky for me to think otherwise.

I need lots of strength for the next few weeks!

Keep writing nevaeh. Keep processing. God, I know it's not easy. Remember your own truth and take time to be alone so you can,perhaps find Guidence. I wish it wasn't so hard. You are stronger than you think but it's okay to feel weak. It's okay to feel everything your feeling. Be true to yourself. That is your only job. Prayers and blessings coming your way.

I probably never would have got the courage to leave my UBPDH Of 6 years... . If I hadn't found out his daughter ( 12 years old) had sexually abused my daughter ( 11 years old) and our granddaughter over the course of many years. CPS and everyone got involved and I left in the middle of the night to protect my daughter! I am just sick over the whole thing... .

HOWEVER, moving out so suddenly showed me just how awful our lives had been with him ( and his daughter, quite frankly) after getting out I could never go back into that world of chaos and misery. We have all had extensive counseling in large part due to the the sexual abuse between the kids. But... . I have filed for divorce and will never go back. I was " lucky" that I had such a pressing reason to move out I didn't even have time to think about it. And, being reminded just how wonderful a Peaceful life is was exactly what it took for me to finally leave him... . For good ... . And file for the divorce. He is fighting tooth and nail , but my mind is made up! Game OVER!

I just read this today on My Emotional Vampire FB page, and it really struck a chord for me - and I'm imagining that it will for you as well:

"Many victims of toxic people (TP) hold onto the hope therapy will magically fix everything. That if they can only get their partner into therapy all will be well. The "magic bullet" idea DBT will make their partner worthy of sainthood.

This is a lie the victim tells themselves. There is no magic cure or fix for this. Same as there is no magic cure or fix for diabetes, autism and many other disorders. Those disorders are only managed.

Therapy can help calm rages and get the TP to sort of understand life isn't black and white. It can allow the TP to deal with stress in more productive ways that don't involve self harm or rage. That's is the therapy is completed by early adulthood usually.

What therapy can't do is remove the ass behavior of the disorders. The lying, manipulating and belittling comments and circle conversations. It can't make a lazy person suddenly want to seek out a job and contribute to the family or relationship. Therapy can't teach compassion, empathy and basic human decency. Therapy can't make a lover suddenly give and understand intimacy. Robotic sex won't become an expression of love as it should be because of therapy.

A personality is a personality and it's always set in stone. Although therapy can teach the TP to play the role of a decent human being, but it can't make a legitimate decent human being.

Don't waste your life on the hope it can be better. Spend your time and energy seeking out better, healthier more fulfilling relationships. The TP is as doomed as a rock falling in the ocean. You will eventually drowned* trying to save it from sinking."

~Bo F

See drowning reference above!

Cdn Sunrise

wow, that is so well said.

however, not everyone is exactly the same.  some people may be helped by therapy more than others.  there's a comparison with autism - well, people are all over the autism spectrum.

some people with pd's are more hard to deal with than others, so you can't paint everyone with a broad brush.

but in general, that was well put.