BPDFamily.com

We put parent coordination in our divorce decree, but to get exH to agree, I had to agree to pay for all of it.  It was worth it, I guess.  The PC we chose is pretty good and saw through his lies right away.  She knows he's mentally ill.  However, after two months, he now wants to get rid of her because he caught her in a lie.  A judge didn't appoint her, but we said in our divorce order that we would pick a PC and be with that person for at least 6 months.

Starting over with someone else would be a waste.  I am not going to do it.

My bigger issue is that I still fear (some may remember my posts) that he is vindictive and could hurt the kids someday if he gets stressed.  He also has a vulnerable, loving side, but he gets so rigid when stressed.  He is in therapy and on medication, and he still imagines things, lies, etc.  When in a good mood, he says he wants us to get back together someday.

What happened this week is that he claimed he had a conversation with our doctor.  But she talked to our doc, who confirmed that he never talked to her.

Legally, he can just stop going to the PC, I guess.  But in order for me to do what's best for our kids, I have to figure out if I want to go into court and get someone appointed, or even bigger, ask for a psych eval (FINALLY) so I can see if a professional thinks he's dangerous.  I've been told it may just be a waste of time and money to do so.  it will also push exH to the edge and make him forever suspicious, whereas now he at least talks to me about the kids and stuff, even if it's tense at times.  I can't predict the outcome of this, and family courts due sometimes make things worse instead of better.

I guess I am wondering how to best handle his request for us to pick a new PC.  I think I just have to insist we keep the same one.  But there is a longer term issue here - I need to protect the kids and stop being so afraid all the time.

HE has never physically hurt them, but he does get very angry.  He does vengeful stuff like has canceled their appointments and driven away when one of them was supposed to visit with him (that kid is too young to remember, but still).  And before the divorce, there was a night when he raged all night, blocked doors with the kids inside, etc.  That is what worries me - when pushed too far, he did all that.

Ugh, it never ends.

CORRECTION:  She caught HIM in a lie.

Part of me still wants to go to court and get a psych eval and recommendation to see if he should keep having unsupervised visits, legal custody, etc.  It's just an extreme measure, and hard to know if I should trust family court.  I wish I had a crystal ball to see how this could play out.  I want to do what's best for the kids, and I have no idea.

If you both agreed to 6 months than I would keep to that agreement. It's a boundary and you paid for it.

Can you let the pc know your concerns without ex present ? If so that is what I would do. Make sure you have several examples that show your concern is valid.

Can/will the pc testify in court ? If so, that would be when you request an eval/counseling/supervised visitation. The pc can support your position. Independent witnesses work best in court.

What I discovered in my county is the courts do not want one party to pay for such things because the other party can claim bias and dismiss everything from the findings.

It sounds like the PC order was not signed before a judge? It might be different where I live, but when a PC comes on board, he or she is sworn in by the judge. So to get out of the order requires going before a judge, too.

If you don't have that, and your ex wants to change, then there isn't much you can do except file a motion for contempt (that he is not abiding by the terms of the consent order), and then file a separate motion for a psych eval.

The good thing is that the PC saw through the lies. That's a sign that others will see through them too. And now that there is a PC who can vouch that there are underlying problems, plus there's a history of your ex being medicated, I think you have less to fear from family court. Also, you're female. Those are a lot of plusses in your favor. Not saying it's a slam dunk, but the arrows are pointing in the right direction.

In my situation, N/BPDx did a psych eval and it did not trigger worse behavior. He is quite narcissistic, though, and I think he enjoyed the attention  . The eval was not an MMPI-2, but it was done by a psychiatrist who specializes in PDs, and the eval was pretty bad. N/BPDx didn't see the negatives in the eval, only the positives, and agreed to share it with me.

livedandlearned, you got most custody but he has 4 hrs unsupervised visitation, rt?

yes, i had to pay 100 percent.  he can claim bias, i guess.

it was in our court agreement, but not the persons name.

Technically, I have primary physical custody and primary legal custody. That amounts to full custody in my state. And visitation was set to 4 hours every other weekend, unsupervised. No overnights. No vacations. No holidays.

My ex had a psychotic episode, but while that was a significant factor, what led to full custody for me was when the PC started to work with him. He is the hardest client she had ever worked with.

Unfortunately, we have to build a case, one step at a time, one piece of evidence at a time, so that the story is compelling enough to get the court to pay attention.

On one hand, you have a PC who sees through your ex, and that is good. On the other hand, if you get another PC in who sees the same thing, that is even better.

A PC is just an expert set of eyes looking closely at your ex. They cannot get our exes to cooperate any more than we can. The reason we bring them in is to create an expert witness who can testify that this BPD person is impossible to co-parent with. Then you get your lawyer to ask for more legal custody, or more physical custody, or less visitation, whatever you think is best.

For example, you could say that it's ok to keep physical custody the way it is, but you want full legal custody. And say that he is not allowed to take the kids for routine checks with doctor, or dentist, or give medication, etc. Just mentioning that because it's what you've mentioned before as concerning you.

If your issue with the PC is about holding to a boundary, that's another matter. If you have already paid a retainer and don't want to lose the money, then maybe it's worth talking to your lawyer about consequences if he does not cooperate. Maybe your PC will negotiate and give you the money back.

The money isn't an issue; I've only given her 1500 and she's almost thru it.  I can't afford a new one, of course.  Most charge a lot more.

I am figuring I'll just leave things as they are for now and contemplate going back to court.  If he wants to break the court order, that's his loss.

She was about to talk to his therapists, though.  So I'm disappointed that she didn't get to do that - or maybe she will anyway.  We haven't officially fired her yet.

Do NOT fire her... . she is your best advocate right now.

If he has a problem, ask him to document it in writing.

BPD/Nxh will often complain to me verbally and also make requests verbally, but when I ask him to back it up in writing, he wont. If I acted on what he told me, it could make it look like I am requesting random changes and that I am unsatisfied with the status quo.

BPD/Nxh was caught in a lie at the kids daycare and he demanded that I remove the kids from that centre and move them to another centre. It was hell, but I kept the kids there and took out AVO's and the kids needed the stability then more than ever. Looking back, I can't believe I gave his argument any attention, but at the time I was backed into a corner and I thought that appeasing him would make it easier. Obviously nothing I did made it easier, or ever will.

If you act on what he has asked you to do, you are still letting him take control. If you think the system is working and are following the court orders, stick with it. The PC will hopefully see the situation for what it is and realise that the only reason he wants to change PC is because he is unable to influence her.

I am not giving in to his desire to fire her.  He was acting all sweet today about how we could work together to find a new one.  I think maybe he can't fire her on his own.  Have to look at the documents.

"BPD/Nxh was caught in a lie at the kids daycare and he demanded that I remove the kids from that centre and move them to another centre."

MINE DID THE SAME THING!  In fact, just today he called me at work and claimed he called day care and they told him our daughter was not there.  Of course she was there.  He never called.  He does this when he wants my attention.  Sick, isn't it?  He has tried to get me to pull my kid out of that day care for years.  He has given up by now, though.

What can we really do in this situation? 

My ex ran away in 2007 with our two boys. It was chaotic to say the least. During that time I recieved a phone call on my cell phone. It was my ex's ex mother in law. I had spoken to her a few times in the past but I had no idea how she got my number. Anyway, she told me that I need to go to court and fight to see our kids. She told me several stories of what she did with her first husband. It was constant boundary testing and verbally agreeing to things not already agreed to. She made him look like an idiot in court. Gaslighting big time. I decided early on to only communicate through email. Our court order says any changes in the court ordered custody agreement must be made through email and both parties must agree in an email. That really helped a lot. The more detached I became the less scared, worried, concerned I became about ex doing something nasty to me or the boys. In the beginning she was nasty to all of us. I believe that by staying focused on the boys and letting her do whatever she would do was the best course of action. At first she had the kids convinced I was a monster. Over time they "got it" and no longer view me that way. Time does help expose her. I had two boys and I would always help them stick together back then. I thought it was a good thing anyway but I did focus on that to help them. They still have their differences, of course, but I do think it helped them.

If he can't refuse or stop the pc then stay with that one. Remember too, that only one lie in the big pictire may not be that big of a deal so don't rely on just that to win for your kids. Have as much documented unbiased evidence as you can and don't leave anything out that is really important.

It's amazing to me that my H would tell a lie like that to a PC and it seems so small in the scheme of things.   To the outside world, it's crazy.  In the scope of a PD, I guess not! 

Who DOES these things?  Who lies about conversations with doctors?  It's bananas.

I am currently going through another custody eval. Ex told several lies. Some of them I can't prove but some I can. I didn't lie so there is no problem there. Some of her lies are significant and some are really not that big of a deal. Bunching them togeher shows a pattern that she can't be trusted even when it pertains to the childrens wellbeing. Another thing I think that helps me is that I forgot a lot of specific dates. I know the order of events just not the dates. During the eval meeting I was questioned about a specific dates. I said I wasn't sure of the exact dates and would have to look it up when I got home. Ex knew the dates or at least said she did. Since the dates she said matched up to the order of events I was talking about she unknowingly backed up what I was saying. I don't think ex realized what she was doing. My ex is big on remembering dates so when she offered them I agreed with her. I believe that showed I was not in constant battle mode. Ex, on the other hand, had to point out little details that I had missed. She actually was very helpful making my points. I could not have done this years ago because I was too emotionally attached to her, our relationship, our marriage, whatever.

That's a problem for me too, being a bit emotionally attached.  Wish I knew a year ago what I knew now.

Seems like my choices are:

-Force a court order for a parent coordinator.  This will really make me broke, and if I do want a psych eval later, I won't have money for it.

-Hold off a bit so I can make sure I have more money

-Talk exH into another pc and we can do our own consent order.

-Convince him to go back to our PC that we have already.  Unlikely since his lawyer is talking to him about it.

It's all so much to think about when I am a working mom.  Oh well.

You can give him an ultimatum.

If he does not agree to stick it out with the current PC, you will have one appointed.

Or, if he does not agree to stick it out with the current PC, you will file a motion for contempt.

Also, you can ask your PC to request a psych eval. That's what my PC did. It wasn't an MMPI-2, but it was over 20 pages detailing the psychological issues that make him a difficult person. The wording is very careful, but it is super vivid account of N/BPDx's personality disorder and why those issues make it difficult for him to cooperate, deal with boundaries or authority, and inhibit his impulses. It goes into detail about his substance abuse, his issues with women (the report refers to him as having misogynistic behaviors), and goes into some depth about his inability to answer basic questions about S12.

Livedandlearned, that is great advice.  Thank you.  Thank god I have this forum.

Your idea about your PC requesting a psych eval is useful.  Our PC said that in our state, PC recommendations are not binding.  I was surprised, because even in our divorce decree, it said the person should make binding recommendations. 

My concern is that he will freak out and maybe hurt the kids *because* of a request for a psych eval, so I have to think careful about that.  I'd have to request supervised visitation at the same time.

Since he only has the kids one overnight every two weeks and it's with his parents, a psych eval would really have to show he's dangerous to make a diff.  And I don't know if it would show that or make any predictions like that.

Ideally, the one thing I want more than anything is to know if he could, or will, hurt the kids should something really upset him.  He certainly does manipulative things to get my attention.  He tends to believe he knows what our kids are thinking.  He might be one to kill himself and them at once.  I just don't know.  Judges and courts don't act on 'what-ifs,' really.  Our PC said there's no real way to tell.  I guess there are more violent people, drug abusers, etc who have not done this.  But all it takes is one scary story on the internet and I'm back to being afraid.  My kids are so little and cute, it's hard not to be scared.

I don't think, in our current situation, at this moment, he would do anything.  It would take something major to drive him crazy, like if one of his parents died or I got remarried (not on that runway right now).

You have to manage your fears by doing two things. One is thinking pragmatically about your choices -- and you're doing a good job of that. Asking people here, working with a PC, talking to your L. Organizing your thoughts. 

The other thing you have to do is learn new techniques to help deal with the anxieties and fears. We are the only people we can change. I think that sentence is so deceptively simple, people don't stop and take it in. We can only change ourselves. That means changing our patterns of behavior, changing our thoughts. When you find yourself thinking the worse, pay attention to how your body feels. Use that as a signal to get grounded in the moment. Pay attention to what is real, and what is not real. Anxiety is a form of imagination, and it prevents us from being in the moment, feeling connected to ourselves and to our loved ones. Too much anxiety can destroy your healthy. Pervasive anxiety interferes with your ability to make good decisions and to think clearly.

So, thinking about the pragmatic approach: talk to your PC and L and see if the PC can ask for a psych eval. It sounds like that might not be a binding decision given how PCs work with your courts.

Thinking about the anxiety: learn how to manage anxiety. There's a really good chance your girls are going to be anxious, so putting effort into this is going to go a long way for them. DBT is a really good tool for this, and so is cognitive behavioral therapy.

Another thing you can do is to take Gavin de Becker's Mosaic test -- it's a threat assessment tool he developed (de Becker wrote the Gift of Fear). I think it's called the Mosaic Method and you can google it online. If your ex scores low, then that tells you perhaps your anxiety is perhaps higher than necessary. If he scores high, then your anxieties are within the ballpark.

LnL

Thanks!  I have taken the test and he scored a 6.  We all know, though, that anyone can snap.

Just met with a lawyer.  (Cheaper to keep having consultations than bend my own lawyer's ear... . sneaky, but I can do it, so I do.)  I have a better idea of my options than I did before.  I wish I had understood a year ago how everything worked.  It is so expensive to do all these things - if you can do it as part of the ongoing case, do it, people! 

Seems like I could file a motion, and it's possible we'd settle with my ex on something and not even have to go through a whole process.  Or maybe I would.  But at least I know what to do, if I need to.

Also, asked the L if she'd ever had a case where a spouse killed the kids.  She never has.  Good to know the odds are low, but I can still read about these guys on the news and they all sound personality disordered like my husband.  At least I'm not vindictive to him or anything that warrants revenge.

Livedandlearned, you have been so helpful!

You only hear about the extreme cases on the news - you will never read a headline that says "BPD dad commits to ongoing therapy and becomes the best parent and ex-husband he can be"

It's hard to distance yourself from the what-if's, but it's necessary. Focus on what you can control, work towards securing a stable arrangement for your family, and let go of the things that are outside of your control.

Trust your instincts - the deep one's. Not the anxious thoughts that are based on your fear, but the one's that tell you that you or your family is in imminent danger. It's important to know the difference and be ready to act. I acknowledge that I have been right and managed risky times well in the past, but I also acknowledge that sometimes I got it wrong and over-reacted.

Yes, yes.  I have realized that for now, he won't hurt the kids.  He only reacts when desperate.  I now know that I have some options if I sense a problem ahead.  I understand exactly what to do.  For now we're good.

As for the parent coordinator, I could threaten to go to court for contempt or to get one appointed.  He's not really in contempt because of the way the agreement is worded.  I don't think it will fly.  As for getting one appointed, can't afford that right now, and neither can he.  I have been using PC's with small retainers.  I don't want to threaten court until I'm ready to act on it.  For now, I am going to wait a bit and then try a new PC and make sure he commits to 6 months.  This one was very aggressive, not very diplomatic, but she saw the issues.  I now feel more confident that others will, as well.  And I have all sorts of emails from her about what has been happening.

A few people have told me that I have to worry more later, when the kids are not toddlers and begin to clash with him.  And be emotionally influenced by him.  I guess that's when we'd need a PC more.

I am hoping to have more money eventually so I have more choices.  Right now, I don't think court is necessary.  Someday it will be.  We need a therapist more than a PC right now, but hubby won't do that.

This is the type of PC that you want. My PC had a very assertive, professional demeanor. She was not diplomatic either. You don't want a PC who walks on eggshells like we did. This isn't therapy, it's decision-making.


momtara, can you see a therapist and work on this? There is a world of confusion there, calling him "hubby" when you are divorced.

maybe, but exH just takes more thought - got into habit of calling him hubby online.  of course, i still do get confused.  i do set and keep boundaries.

momtara, as you continue all the important work you've done for your kids and for yourself, please don't let this key observation go to waste. I haven't checked on the exact definition of "Freudian slip" lately, but this sounds like one to me. Not only are you and he divorced, but you are not at all convinced he won't harm your kids one day.

The best way to become unstuck would truly be to see a therapist and get to the root of this confusion. This is exactly the stuff they deal with. It takes courage to examine yourself and the family you grew up in--which is what the therapist will likely want to do--but you and your kids will benefit greatly, I believe.

Thanks.  Yes, I do understand I am confused.  I will see a therapist - just hard to fit in with so many other things to deal with.  I know it might help me sort things out in my head.

 |iiii

You, and the other parents who post here, are doing such important work for your kids.

Thanks.

It bothers me that I am going to bend, that I'm going to let him cancel our PC.  But really, it's not worth going to court over.  I have to pick my battles.  I *do* have to try to hook him into agreeing to another one that I choose.  He could easily just not go with another PC and then I'd really have to go to court.

There are money issues.  I can't afford to pay another retainer this month.  We also are ok for a few weeks without a PC, who just triggers him more anyway. 

So my plan is to put him off for a few weeks, then try to start with a new one next month. 

And when he decides he doesn't like that one either?

I think you need a longer-term plan here. He is a boundary buster. You let your boundaries be busted. He isn't going to change. The only PC he is going to like is one who agrees with everything he says and does.

What purpose does a PC serve you? Is it to get a third-party professional involved in advocating for you in court?

What purpose does it serve to have multiple PCs involved in your case? Are you genuinely looking for someone to make decisions for you? Are you hoping to have a series of PCs involved so you can tell a judge your ex would not work with any of them? If so, how are you documenting that? Can he counter and say that you're the one who switched? Do you expect multiple PCs will testify in court? Do you need multiple PCs involved to make that point to a judge, or will one testimonial be enough?

If you get a new PC who thinks your ex is wonderful, then what?

Are there other issues going on for you when it comes to this? Do you worry that the current PC triggers your ex, so you feel uncomfortable watching someone else set a boundary? Is it that you worry about escalating conflict with your ex? If so, these are different issues that you have to deal with because they could be sabotaging any strategy you develop long term.

It's hard to think strategically, so I'm tossing these questions out as a way to help focus your thinking. It's easy to become a tumbleweed in these situations, always reacting. We make small decisions and think something is getting done, without keeping bigger goals and objectives in mind.

My ex ran away in 2007. The first two years I was very concerned that she would do something to our kids. They were young and that had me more concerned for them. I was careful about not getting her upset. I didn't mind if she attacked me and that was the way I usually handled things. I'd rather her attack, accuse, whatever me instead of our boys. Eventually I began to see that if I didn't change thinmgs would stay the same and this wouldn't ne good for the kids in the long run. I started making boundaries. The first few were minor but I stuck to my boundary. It didn't go over well with ex. I stayed firm. Gradually I got better at making and keeping those boundaries in place. Ex learned to adapt. It wasn't always pretty but it worked. Did the kids get flak. The simple answer is yes. However, they got to see their mom for who she was. I think that was and is a good thing. Keeping the truth hidden only invalidates them. That is not healthy for them. It was scary at first but I looked for the long range goal. Just last weekend I took both boys down the shore with their older brother (actually stepbrother/ex's son from her first marriage). We had a great time. I have a great relationship with my two SS's. Another one has a substance abuse issue and doesn't talk to me or his two brothers. Our two younger boys see what is going on and have commented. One of the older boys is total NC with his mom. His mom says things when our boys are with her about him such as he is an ___hole, etc. Trying to keep the peace with ex is not in anyones's best interest. She is what she is. It took me lots of practice to get to this point.

Good advice and insight from both of you.

He probably won't work with any of them.  Unfortunately, I don't really have a way to make him keep seeing the current one without going to court, because of the way our agreement is worded.

Yes, this *does* allow me to show that he won't work with any of them. 

As for what if the next one favors my ex - I can't worry about that; that's what almost stopped me from getting one at all.

Another option is just to let him be in contempt and not even pick a new one.  Which is a temptation.

My goal for having one is to have someone else document this behavior (future witness) and to see if we can communicate better on decisions.  I feel more empowered now, in any case.

That's important -- to feel empowered!

If you went to court and filed a motion for contempt, a judge might just court-order a PC. That's a question for your L.

If you get another PC and your ex does not cooperate again, then you go to court and a judge might see that there is a pattern. For that hearing, you might call one of the PCs to give testimony. In my case, my L usually asked for something at the same time there was a contempt of court. For example, you go in with a contempt of court (ex does not comply with order, will not cooperate with PC) and ask for full legal custody or decision-making, however your state does it. Another question for your L might be whether you can use two failed PCs to ask for full custody. It might not count as a "substantial change in circumstance" to change physical custody, unless your PC thinks there are big issues.

That's all great advice.  Thank you.  I have to weigh all these options.   If ex and I weren't both broke, I'd push for him to pay 50/50 for a pc.  the way it is, I have to choose certain things over other things -- if I pay a big retainer for a PC now, I may not be able to go into court for a psych eval for him later.  I strongly feel that for the time being, the kids are ok -  this period of time right now.  But I also have a chance, because he won't cooperate, to do things that could make it safer and easier for them in the future, like have a PC appointed by the court.  

The middle ground seems to be to have us pick a short term PC and see how it goes.  But ultimately even if he complies, I may want to have one appointed again.  

The only reason I fear doing anything in court is that I have so much custody of them right now, so I have a lot of daily decision making power anyway.  He can try to use court too.  But I am in a much better spot than a year ago because a year ago, everything was my word vs. his.  Now I have a lot of documentation of his mental health issues and he's in therapy and I have one PC who has seen his behavior.  It was only two sessions, but she still saw it.

What is your ultimate objective? To get full custody? No visitation? Supervised visitation?

Supervised visitation would be a goal depending on how he acts, and if he stays in therapy.  He takes them to his parents' house, so usually there are other people there anyway.  But still, anything can happen.  I'd like supervised if he doesn't get his issues together.  

So I guess my real goal with having a PC is to keep an eye on that.  If a PC believes he needs supervised, I'd go for supervised.  Plus, a PC can lessen the tension in our communication and decision making.  I am intimidated by him because I hate when he's angry.  But I have to deal with him when deciding things with the kids.  I'd like it to be a bit smoother.  I feel like it can't hurt to have someone monitoring the situation.  I've only chosen PC's with a mental health background.

Your goals seem vague, momtara. I think you might be struggling with this because you are feeling undecided about your relationship, and about your ex's stability. If your goal is contingent on whether he does x or y, then he is driving everything and you are reacting. If your goal is that you want x, then you decide what must happen in order to get there.

My experience is that no one is going to figure that part out for you. My ex had a psychotic episode that was fully documented, and we had a PC involved, and it was even in the parenting coordinator order that she could make custody recommendations. But she didn't. And I wouldn't want her to -- I'm the parent. I am capable of making that decision.

If your goal is to get supervised visitation, then start documenting things that will build your case. Maybe you want his parents to be the supervisors, so document the ways in which they are reliable and help your ex be a better parent. When you present this in court, you can always toss in the part about wanting him to get a psych eval or treatment as a contingency to getting unsupervised parenting back.

If your goal is to have sole legal custody, then start documenting things that will build your case. You have a PC involved that has experience with your ex's issues. Maybe you'll end up with two or three PCs with the same experience. Document everything that demonstrates he cannot make good decisions, or he cannot coparent, and how that effects the kids. If having a PC is the best way to monitor and document the situation, then keep a PC involved.

I'm not saying these are your goals, or that these are the only ways to achieve them, just trying to give you an idea about what it means to state them clearly. If you are vague, your process will be vague. If your goals are contingent on things you cannot control, like whether your ex is stable, or whether he gets therapy, then your goals are going to bob around in the water.

Right now it seems like you are hoping the PC will decide what the goal is. Or you will get around to deciding on a goal based on how your ex behaves.

You have had two good outcomes from court, both of which generated a lot of fear and anxiety for you. That says a lot. You are 2 for 2 at this point. Your instincts are good, and people around you are validating those instincts. They agree that there is something wrong. If you get clear about what you want -- goals, objectives, strategies, suggestions for your ex -- there are good signs that court will listen to you.

Once I stopped thinking the courts were going to do what is best for our kids and that I knew better things got better. Why ? Because I was making the decisions and not letting some stranger decide what was best for our kids. Because I knew what was best for our kids. I see them more then the judge, custody evaluator, pc, etc. Those people make decisions based on their own experiences and not what you know about your kids. They can't know as much as you so you have to be their advocate in these situations. It's a different way of looking at the court system. Then you document what you need to get to where you want to go just like livednlearned said. Figure the rules of the game and go foward.