BPDFamily.com

Hello all,

So, as many of you have read my long diatribe and drama. My ex has been contacting me basically non stop, every two or three weeks (2 months at the longest) since I broke up with her. I have been NC for a year, with the occasional slip (a one or two word response here and there, mostly to tell her to stop).

Anyhow, my ex graciously offered her friendship to me last week.

I don't want it. I don't even want to ever think about it. There is no reason for me to have her in my life. I have plenty of really, really close life-long friends. I am blessed that way.

I don't want to be friends with her. As my actual best friend told me today: "Why would you want to be friends with someone who hurt you? That is not a friend." She then called me a jerk-t*t for not hanging up on her immediately. That made me laugh. She seemed to have no more patience for this. It was a surprisingly welcome reaction.

Anyhow, do you all think it is immature to not be friends? I just don't see the reason. I don't trust her. I don't trust myself around her. We were never friends. Our 'relationship' started when she seduced me while we were both dating other people. I left the person I was with and she the person she was with. Then, after 3 months, I dumped her. She was acting crazy. My spidey sense was going nuts. I knew I had made a huge mistake leaving the woman I was previously with. And I tried to make amends (which didn't work). I was then severely depressed for about 4 months and my BPDx kept coming after me. 30 phone calls a day. Crying fits. And begging to be my 'friend'. I relented. And became her friend. And that 'friendship' turned into sex. And that sex turned into a 'relationship'. And that 'relationship' turned into a living hell of abuse and rage. So I dumped her again. And I went crazy myself.

So, here I am, a year and half out. She calling me. Telling me I am her best friend in the whole world and wanting to be my best friend again like before (when? When were we best friends?). We were acquaintances for a few months and then she seduced me. (I Know... . not cool to think I had no power... . but I'm a guy... . and holy cow... . it was seduction that came out of nowhere that I just couldn't resist... . seriously... . I would dare anyone).

So, is it immature to not be friends with her? Or, would it be immature to BE friends with her. I don't trust her. I don't trust myself. I know she is poison to me. She has nothing but a history of extremely destructive and abusive relationships. I don't trust.

What do you all think?

Also, this relates to changing my phone number... . If I change my number, this is it. Then it is all in my court if I make contact. And, I trust myself enough not to initiate. I haven't yet over the past 1.5 years. I only have trouble not responding.

Thoughts?

It really and truly sounds like you know what your answer is based on no trust for her, not trust for yourself with her, and the other things you mentioned.  You know that it's perfectly acceptable to take care of yourself even if that means not being friends.  And, it sounds like there is still a lot of potential for hurt going down the friends road - no? yes? maybe?  Anyway, yea it's okay not to be friend especially if you need to do that to take care of yourself, protect yourself, or "other" yourself things. 

My opinion, which is based on extreme suffering during and and after a 4-year relationship filled with gaslighting, splitting, recycling, drama, smearing, Triangulation (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=121673.0):

No friends.

The cord was cut for me over 30 days ago, and I am never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever going back.

Why?  Because I am investing in myself now.  

My anger set me free, and this community has grounded me.

Borderlines don't know the meaning of friendship due to their illness. You owe your ex nothing so don't even believe for a second that cutting all ties counts as "immature." You deserve a considerable amount of time and space to heal from narcissistic abuse so for now friendship cards should be off the table.

Spell

1. Your BPD doesn't know or understand the meaning of friendship. Compare/contrast her with the truly great lifelong friends you have. See the difference?

2. What would be the point? More heartache and troubles like the ones she's already brought you?

3. It will eventually fade anyway, right? Since we know that they typically leap from person to person for narc. supply any way. It's likely in just a few short weeks or days, you'd be replaced.

What she's really after is the assurance of a "safety net". In other words, when all of the other messed up relationships she's revolving are at a low point, she wants to know that she at least has you to diddle with to keep her (literally) feeling alive.

Keep doing yourself the favor of both listening to yourself/your needs and learning how to end/move on with your life. You'll be much better off and happier going forward.

I agree with BPDspell.

It not immature to do what is best for you and healthy, it would be hard to maintain sanity wehn dealing with their irrational thoughts and behaviors and attmepts to pull you back in.  That is when were most vunerbale and they are too.  The distant and N.C. is needed for some to clear from the FOG and try understand what just happened, and your own role int he process.

ITs not immature, but it can be viewed as just that, even passive aggressive if people are looking from the outside.  But that just feeling associated with negativity.  Sometimes the right thing comes with negative fdeelings and that is okay.

My initial thought is to ask you how would a mature person handle what you are experiencing right now?  I'm not sure the question is whether or not it's mature/immature to be friends with her, but instead, how can you be mature in your thoughts and actions regarding this recent situation?  What does handling this in a mature way look like to you?

This is something I'm struggling with. I tried to have a civil friendly relationship with my uBPDxw for the sake of of our (2) sons. It is IMPOSSIBLE (for me) to do this. She continues to do INSANE things that are hurtful to me and my boys like not seeing her sons but at the same time showing up across the street with our neighbor who is her new victim. I tried to explain to her how painful this is for her sons. It's like trying to explain calculus to a 3 year old! How can you remain friends with someone who constantly does things to hurt her own kids and shows absolutely no remorse about it. How do you remain friends with someone who not only abandoned her kids but will not take them to see their Gram, aunts and uncles on her side of the family because she has painted them black too? These are the things that hurt my kids, there's a whole list of things she's done to me and lied about me in her devaluation tour to smear my reputation just so she could find new victims.

I try to reason with her but we all know what reasoning will get you with a pwBPD. It is so FRUSTRATING.  Even when we do have CIVIL talks I'm constantly having to try and filter through all the lies to get to the truth of any conversation we have. Even though we are parents to the same children I see no way I can even talk to her let alone maintain a friendship.  Those of you who got out before you had kids consider yourself lucky.

NO ITS NOT IMMATURE TO NOT WANT TO BE FRIENDS. IN MY CASE ITS CALLED MAINTAINING SANITY!

Emotionally mature people set boundaries.

Protecting ones self from further abuse is setting a boundary.

What's wrong with protecting yourself?

Hi again!

As I shared with you the other day at the end of your other thread, I have walked this path, am walking it now. At some point in time after giving all you have to understand, relate, etc you have to protect yourself.  I used to think that it was cruel, (given the emotional status of the XpwBPD to set firm limits, which to them appears as abandonment, or us being cruel to them) was the wrong path to take in order to keep the peace or hang on to the friendship.  I no longer feel that way!  I no longer act that way either.  By refusing to allow further abuse your Xgf will not be as attracted to you, she will realize you are no longer her beck and call boy and she will move on.  It does take tremendous mature strength but you can do it.  She's a big girl, can take care of herself albeit not in healthy relational ways.

We are all doing ourselves a great disservice by allowing ourselves to be jerked around and used.  It's Biblical (if you are a person of faith) to set limits and boundaries.  I told myself that

I was being unChristian by leaving the friendship until I understood better by reading an excellent book on the subject.  Stay strong, you can do this and come out much better for it!

CiF

Hi All,

Thanks for the affirmation and validation. I know it sounds weird to need that. It is just that I am so confused. Is this a crazy making conversation?

Her: I miss my best friend in the whole world. I love you. I will never find anyone who will understand me like you do. I thought of you as my soul mate, I sometimes still do. There is a huge part of me missing when you aren't around. I want to be best friends again. Are you seeing anyone? I haven't been able to get you out of my mind for 3 months.

Me: I can't be friends with you. I don't feel that way towards you. I don't have friend feelings for you. I find it too hard. I have been dating but I find it really hard and not very fair to the other person because I am still hurting.

Her: It can be different. It doesn't have to be that way.

Arg... . reading this makes me realize I was the one reading into it. I guess in her mind, she was telling me that she wanted to be best friends. In my mind, I thought she was buttering me up to try to be back together with me. I asked her for clarification. I guess a part of me thought she had changed or something. AGGGGG. I HATE THIS.

But for context, I have been NC with her for over a year. She has not stopped contacting me. I have thought that I burned the bridge over and over and over again. Trying to both explain to her why I can't talk to her and also being very angry and telling her to f off. I thought that her contacting me

Ug. This makes me so sick. I DON'T EVEN WANT TO GET BACK TOGETHER WITH HER. That's the really, really crazy part. I started saying all these things to her and feeling like I wanted to get back together. BUT I DIDN'T WANT TO.

I feel like I'm going totally mental. Why would I feel this torn up again about her when I don't even want to talk to her? I didn't want to talk to her. I feel panic and anxiety every time I see her name come up on my phone.

Blah. When we hung up, she asked me why I thought we could be back together. The part in me that wanted it told her that I have done a lot of work on myself and that there were a lot of resources out there for couples that had the kind of relationship we had. She said that she thought she never thought we could even talk again, let alone be back together. That even if she was in a position to be in a relationship with me, that she wouldn't want to but that regardless, even if there was still any hope, we had to be friends first.

Confusing... . Is she saying this to not hurt my feelings? Is she saying the 'even if there was to be hope we would have to be friends first so that she at least gets me as a friend?

Good lord. I can't make my way out of this.

Agg... .

The sane part of me wants to change my phone number. The sane part of me dumped her. The sane part of me didn't marry her. The sane part of me knows that she will never change. The sane part of me KNOWS she has BPD. The sane part of me KNOWS it would never work out. It didn't work out. It never could work out. The sane person is the one that stopped trying. Stopped engaging in the fights. Stopped trying to defend myself. The sane person in me put up the walls and blocked her when she was raging at me. The sane person in me never showed up to move in with her after days of her calling me an 'a$$hole' and screaming and raging.

I went to see my T this week and he said that only a BPD would continue to contact me like this even after what I have said to her and told her over and over that I was not interested in being a friend and did not want her contacting me. So, I guess that is some validation there. He even warned me the last time I saw him, which was 6 or 7 months ago, that she would, that she fit the profile to a T (no pun intended).

So, just for me... . Here is where I am CERTAIN in terms of the criteria:

1) Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment (YES: Obviously... . her calling me despite what I have told her is yet another example)

2) A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation. (YES: She was like this in all her previous relationships according to her)

3) Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self (NOT SURE. This is a tough one. I would lean towards yes).

4) Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). (YES: She was hospitalized in her early 20s for eating disorder and would tell me she has a disease called body dismorphia. When stressed, she would eat an insane amount of food)

5) Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior. (NOT SURE: She was certainly suicidal after the break up. She told me so)

6) Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days) (WOW YES)

7) Chronic feelings of emptiness (YES. I would see this all the time. Sometimes she would sit there and just look like an empty shell)

8) Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights). (YES)

9) Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms. (NOT SURE: She would tell me that she would have episodes sometimes but I have no idea what this means. She was worried that she was sometimes on the verge of being disassociating from reality. But really, these statements would come out of the blue and I wouldn't really understand what she was talking about and then she wouldn't bring them up again, even if I pressed the issue).

So... . 6 YES FOR SURE. 3 NOT SURE, MAYBE.

Arg. I know this is futile. I know this about me. I know that.

I was doing so well... . I promise... . Setting good boundaries with people, sticking up for myself without feeling bad about it. AGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

Willy,

Have you had therapy over the past year?

Hi Seeking Balance,

Yes. I have had therapy. I started in August of 2012 and was in it until about April of 2013. Between August 2012 and January 2013, I kept taking calls from my ex to tell her to go away. She persisted. In January of 2013, I made the really stupid mistake of seeing her (we don't live in the same city)... . I was in the city she lives in on work and she happened to email me the moment I got there to ask me if I was coming (she knew I had plans to come down from previous conversations a few months before... . and I responded that I was in town but that I was busy... . then the guilt trips... . then me giving in). That meeting nearly destroyed me. When i got back, I told to her never call, never email, never text, ever and that if she felt the urge she should call her boyfriend, get a therapist, or call a friend instead.

I have thus been NC despite her repeated attempts at contact for the past year and several months.

I was doing well. I was healing. She was still on my mind but only in the background. And I could manage it. It was getting better. My life wasn't exactly what I wanted but doing really interesting work and traveling the world meeting really interesting people. My work life had never gone so great. She texted me a month ago and I made the mistake of texting back saying: I am out of the country

She then kept texting me asking me if I was back yet and how much she really wanted to talk to me. She sent these kinds of texts on 3 or 4 occasions which I ignored (thinking it would go away and she would get the hint).

Then, an unknown phone call. And we talked. And I get sucked back into the place I was in January of 2013.

So, that's a long answer to your question. Yes. I have been in T. Yes. I am well aware of my issues. And yes, I have been back and will continue to go back. I am so angry at myself and at her for having to be back in this place. I don't want to be here. I worked so hard to not be here.

Why do you ask? Probably because it sounds like I need it, eh?

I think the one thing that stood out to me was this:

"... . I don't trust myself around her."

Probably the most telling statement. It's not immature to not want to be friends with someone.

Let me ask you something, let's say I told you (purely hypothetical) "YES, it IS immature." Would that change whether you actually desire and how YOU feel? Isn't what YOU want important?

Perhaps that's something you have to address.

Whether it's immature is irrelevant. Having boundaries is all-important, and you're drawing the line.

Here's a fun example, someone wants to date you. But you have ZERO interest in them. They call, they text, they keep saying "Come on, lets go out" or whatever. They won't leave you alone. Isn't that kinda-sorta (definitely) harassment?

So how is this any different? It isn't. It's YOUR decision to reject friendship (or any contact for that matter.) It's YOUR life. Don't second-guess, friendo.

Yeah. You are right. It is harassment. I guess it is easier to look at it from the perspective of if this is someone I just met. It would be much easier to call the cops or something because there is no baggage there.

But what with all the baggage and the years of emotional and verbal abuse, it is harassment at a totally other level. This is what I'm struggling with.

If I can detach for minute and look at your way, then yes. This is harassment. I have told her over and over again that I don't want to be friends with her. When I had just broken up with her, I had the resolve to tell her consistently that I didn't want to get back together with her. She kept calling and asking. I kept a firm resolve and said no. Now that she has "moved on" (really? would someone who has 'moved on' keep contacting their ex repeatedly for almost 2 years despite them telling you to f' off on many, many occasions?). I was very clear with her this time when she called that I did not want to be friends with her. Very, extraordinarily clear. She just kept at it and at it. And launched every kind of technique she knows to wear me down. And it was confusing. I mean... . why use all those words she did if not to get at me. She knows what works. A promise of being best friends in the whole world. A promise of having things be like before (minus sex). A promise of living our lives together (minus sex). That was basically what she was asking for. What else is a best friend? What else is someone who understands the other better than anyone else in the world?

IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE TO ME.

And yes. I don't trust myself around her. Obviously. Look at what's happened to me since two weeks ago. I was going well. I was going to the gym. I am going on 40 and have a mean six pack. I was eating well. I was achieving a level of success in my business and my work that I have never dreamed possible. I was traveling the world getting into projects at the highest levels of business and government. And I'm not making that stuff up. I was doing that. I was even getting a good relationship going with someone else.

This is harassment. The worst kind I have ever experienced. It doesn't make sense to me. It is like this:

Her: I want my best friend in the whole world back.

Me: No, I can't do that.

Her: But you are my best friend in the whole world.

Me: Sorry, I can't be friends with you.

Her: But I won't find anyone else who understands me like you do, who loves me like you do. You are on my mind constantly. Why can't we be best friends again?

Me: I can't because it hurts me.

Her: Then why do you want to get back together with me so badly.

Me: I am fine. When you call me, I got into a fantasy world where everything is great and we are together and we are happy and all is well. I know this is a fantasy. And I don't live in that world. But when you call me, this is what happens to me. And it hurts me.

Her: Well, there is no way I could ever get back together with you. I am with someone else. And even then, I don't know if I could. Even if it was possible, we would have to at least be friends first.

Me: AaAAAGGGGGGGG

Her: When you left, I lost my soul mate. I'm still not OK to this day. I have changed. I am a different person because of this. You left me. I don't want to talk about the past anymore. I want to talk about the future. And my life would be so much less rich without you in it. If you want to be with me so badly, why can't we be friends. Do you really think we can be together again? Why are you so certain

Me: (loosing my mind and on the brink of telling her about BPD) Because our past relationship was very typical of certain kinds of relationships. When you would freak out on me, I reacted by pulling away and putting up a wall and that made things worse. I know the tools now to deal with that.

Her: I think you are living in a fantasy world. Don't you think you are living in a fantasy world? You shouldn't live in a fantasy world. It's not healthy.

Me: I don't know (Didn't I just tell her that?)

Her: We need to build up trust with each other. Since we spoke, I feel like I am going down a hill with no brakes on and I haven't been well. I don't know what's going to happen.

Me: OK. I guess we can try being friends but it hurts me.

Her: I understand.

Me: Ok. I'm going to go now.

Her: That's it? That's it? Really? Well, OK. I love you.

Me: I have to go. This is very hard.

Her: OK, but just don't be mean to me.

Me: Click.

BLAH,... . SO CONFUSED... .

We all need it  

So, in therapy, what conclusions have you come to about why you continue to engage - it is an emotional (not intellectual) reason - what did you and your T determine it was?

Well... . I'm not exactly sure. We didn't really get there.

He said that my ex is an extremely manipulative person and is a master at that. She is very smart and knows me very well so knows exactly what to say to hook me in. She told me to look at this as an addiction. That this is like being addicted to crack and that it is really hard to go off crack and then have a crack dealer knocking at your door at random times for years offering you crack. He said to not be so hard on myself. That I slipped. That I was doing well. That I should look at this as falling off the wagon and that I need to dust myself off right now and get work my way back onto the wagon.

He also told me she wouldn't stop. That in his opinion, she shows every sign that she is BPD and that I should just keep expecting this. He did predict all this a year ago. I didn't believe him.

So, the appointment was more about trying to get me back on my feet. He wants to work with me to find out exactly why I get tripped up, that I need to heal a deep wound from childhood and that once that was healed, she wouldn't have as much power over me.

When you take this journey with him - it is going to help you tremendously.

How often are you going to T - weekly?

Yeah. I wasn't going at all until I talked to my ex. I was seriously doing really well. I'm just shocked. And confused. And hurt.

I don't understand why she would say all these things to me. I don't understand why she would continue to harass me like this. I don't understand why she flips everything on me like this, to make it seem like I'm begging to get her back when I'm clearly telling her that I don't want to be her friend.

I don't understand why I picked up the phone. And I don't understand why I feel this way.

Part of me is terrified that this will continue to happen. Part of me is really worried that there is something seriously wrong with me.

Recovery is in layers - you are ready to peel the next layer is all.

Challenge to you - stop it, stop talking about the "I don't understand".  Train yourself to redirect this spinning - be disciplined.

Ask your T to help you uncover the emotion that made you pick up the phone and then put a strategy in place to heal.

You simply had a gauge of where you are in this latest round -it is not the end of the world, so don't make it that way.  Redirect your focus to learning about "why you react" rather than "why she did it".

YOU can only control YOU  :light:

willy45 from the outside looking in, your ex doesn't care about you at all. she doesn't care about your friendship or your feelings, nor your well being. all the things she is saying to you are lies and crap. but this crap has a purpose -- to draw you back in, make her feel good about herself by hearing you grovel, then also make her feel even better when she can punish, devalue and emotionally abuse you again. toxic people get off on abusing others, everything she is doing is just buttering you up so that she can give you some more of the poison she has in her. and you can bet you're not the only one she's saying this to. if it's been 1.5 years since you broke up she's probably got several other men/women she's saying the same thing to. if you could read her emails or hear her phone calls to other people would you be shocked to hear that she has several "soul mates"? please, she uses this line on everyone. trust your gut and keep your distance.

you feel anxious because a part of your conscious brain thinks maybe she's not all that bad... . maybe it could work out--sounds like you mostly don't think this, but a small part of you does i think. so your body gets a sick and nervous feeling because it's trying to give you the message that this is NOT true. welcome your anxiousness and the message it is giving you (to keep her out of your life). once you truly accept and know that she is bad news and nothing else, her contacting you won't make you anxious/nervous since you don't need this message... . you might just be annoyed or a bit angry since she continues to cross your boundaries since you've stated you don't want contact.

best of luck to you

Hey guy, it looks bad. But, I want you to do something. Start thinking of her as a stranger. Or at least TRY to because it is easier said than done. The person you thought you knew when you first got into this relationship wasn't exactly genuine. It was... . a persona, like an avatar in a video game. You fell for her pixels, not the meat piloting them.

You seem to have your act together, which is excellent. Career, success, friends. What are you really missing out on without this person?

But I'm sure this is something you're already aware of.

Perhaps you picked up the phone out of curiosity, perhaps it was your ego. Maybe you were hoping for some closure or SOMETHING.

Like others have said, she doesn't have your health in mind. After looking at that conversation with you and her, she was trying to guilt and talk you into... . what? Survey says: Into giving her the narcissistic supply she needed. Saying you were hurt probably meant little to her, she'd have picked up on that and left you alone if it did. Then this whole thing about saying YOU live in a fantasy world, well... . that's just meant to make you doubt yourself and your decision. Classic move, but poorly placed given the context and where the conversation was at that point. Mark of desperation.

Mine would call me a wuss or a b*tch whenever I'd say "Look, I'm calling 911 if you're having a seizure in my apartment." Seriously, because I couldn't white-knight her, she called me a pansy. It's what a desperate idiot says when they aren't holding any cards and they want, they NEED something from you, in this case your attention and narcissistic supply. Thanks to the folks on here, I'm able to recognize the behavior for what it is. So you should listen to some other people on here, that stuff they're saying about you figuring out what YOUR triggers are, is on the money. DON'T contact her, right now the most important thing for you is to figure out why you picked up the phone. Perhaps a change of phone number is in order... . you know, just in case.

ditto what Vatz said.

and willy45, CONGRATULATE yourself on making it so long and being so strong with NC/LC. i know this is a little setback but it truly sounds like you've taken the reigns over the past year or so, sought help for yourself and kept away from this person as best you can. i don't see you as weak in any way, you've been strong and now she's just trying to mess with you b/c she can sense your strength. keep up the good work, protect yourself and be proud of how far you've come!  |iiii

Thanks all. I really appreciate the support.

Looking at it from a couple days out, here is what I have been thinking:

Given the choice of having her in my life in any capacity (friend or partner) or having never known her, I would choose never known her, in a millisecond. Really. I truly wish more than anything in the world that I had never known her. That is pretty telling. And that isn't the anger in me. That isn't the one who is embarased about this all. This is the stark truth.

And the craziest thing is, even in my relationship with her, I probably would have chosen the same thing.

And in fact, breaking up with her was basically on my mind since we started dating. It was constantly on my 'to-do' list. We did long distance and we would usually have a few great days together, then an outburst, then weirdness, then OK, then outburst, then I would leave. 80% of the time I would leave thinking 'I'm never coming back'.

Man... . what a sick, sick relationship.

I wish she would leave my head and I wish she would leave my life. I can't get her out of my head. It is seriously making me mental. I don't even like her. Why am I so drawn in if my overarching goal right now is erase her from my brain?

think of her as an unhealthy addiction, because in a very real sense she is.

that's why no-contact is so important: so that you can get over the addiction. every time you reply, you give power to her. when you tell her you hurt, you think this should make her stop, but instead you are inviting her to engage you more.

every time you read that she wants "friendship" with you back, you need to translate that into what it really means: she wants the POWER she had over you back.

You need to go NC fully. by occasionally responding' you are creating "intermittent reinforcement", which encourages her to push harder.

think of it as alcoholism: if you wanted to get over that addiction, having "just a few sips of beer" occasionally is not safe for you. neither is answering her attempts at contact. block her, change you number, always let her go to voice mail. because then you cam listen to her manipulation attempts with some distance and a clearer head.

good luck.

OK. I know you guys are probably tired of hearing my whining. So, here is a small success.

I had a really high profile meeting today in a building across the road from my ex (we don't live in the same city). I know that having this meeting would piss her off or make her jealous. But, I didn't text her. She wanted to 'hang out' next time I was in town. She said she would 'love to see me'. I wanted to text her so badly and tell her where I was and that i wasn't available to hang out. But I didn't. So, at least for today, I won! I went in and out of town super stealth style.

So, wish me luck for tomorrow. I want to text her so badly but just to be an ___hole. My stronger 'smarter' self knows that there is nothing good to be gained by it other than boosting my own ego. But who knows. Maybe she won't care. Maybe she would. I have no idea. Help me not do it!

 Good deL! Go Willy!

Did you tell her you were going NC?

I did not tell her I was going NC. The last thing I told her when we talked last week was that I could try to be friends but that it would be really, really hard. Her last words to me were "just don't be mean to me". I haven't heard from her since. And I haven't contacted her.

I have told her I didn't want any contact with her a year ago and have been just ignoring and deleting the texts, phone calls and emails for the past year. Had a slip last week. We had a great conversation but then she laid down all this stuff about being best friends and how she will never find anyone who understands her like I do and how she can't get me out of her mind for 3 months. I told her that it hurt me to talk to her. Somehow, the conversation went haywire and all of a sudden I was groveling to be with her (It's nuts... . I am obviously not well either because there is NO WAY I would want to go back... . old dynamics die hard, I suppose).

Anyhow, long answer to a short question. No, I haven't told her. I think any contact would make it worse.

Yes, any contact will make it worse... . for you. And all we are concerned about here is you.

Revel in your small victory and build on it. Success is the best revenge and the best part of that is reaching total freedom. So, no need to torment her with "I was in town last week and I was too busy to see you" as it will somehow backfire on you.

One day soon you will be too busy to even think about her. Maintain 'No Contact' and you'll get to total freedom soon.  Good luck...

Thanks! I went another day without doing it! And it feels good!

Here is something I have been struggling with today... . Why can't I just be honest with my ex?

I have read here and elsewhere that when dealing with someone who is undiagnosed, it isn't a good idea to tell them about BPD. I get that. That is a boundary that I don't want to cross. It wouldn't help anyways. So, I don't really care to do that.

But, I haven't told her what I went through after our breakup. I did tell her after we broke up when she kept asking me why I left that I left because she was abusive with me. This sent her into a complete rage, telling me that calling her abusive was abuse and that all her friends think that is ridiculous.

What I haven't told her is that after we broke up I was diagnosed with severe complex PTSD from being in an abusive situation for so long. I did therapy for 6 months to get out of it and that every time she contacts me, I return to PTSD land. She seems to think it is so strange that I went to therapy and even belittles it. She thinks there is something wrong with me that I had to do that when she didn't need it to get over the relationship (BTW... . if she was 'over it', then why is she calling or texting me every few weeks, without a response from me, and after I told her to F off... . something not right, obviously... . ). 

But when I did pick up the phone, I couldn't tell her this. I talked around it, trying not to hurt her feelings, but maybe I should have just told her. Tell her I don't trust her. She was abusive with me. She continues to be abusive with me by not respecting my boundaries and my mental health and that every time she contacts me, I get severe PTSD reactions which I can't seem to control. I can't sleep. I can't eat. I can barely function. It makes me want to hurt myself.

Would this help to tell her? Probably not. I did tell her that her calling me hurts me and her response was 'I understand. But I just want my best friend back. Why can't we be best friends?'

Ag. I don't know what to do.

Your honest sharing here helps a lot of people who struggle with the same thing.   You have actually given a voice to a lot of pain I felt, and continue to feel.

I'm not an expert, but other voices in this community that I respect suggest that such "honesty" may hurt rather than help because it could confirm the disordered view that we are "persecuting" the other person.

I have written probably 500 draft e-mails where I voice my hurt, express my pain, and say stay out of my life.  I am angry at her.  She ripped my heart out.

But, at least since I have been in this community, I have not sent any of these e-mails.   It's not because I'm trying to be zen or self-helpful.  It's because I might as well be talking to a wall if I engage her (or putting a stick into a hornet's nest).   What I say won't help her, while disengaging completely might help (her and me).

You probably don't need me to tell you this, but you do help a lot of people by sharing so honestly here, Willy.   

Yeah. Thanks. It is a struggle with me. Part of me thinks I'm just shielding her from the truth. So, when she calls she just thinks I'm weird or she turns on the charm offensive and I get sucked in. But I have never told her. I'm not sure what the response is that I'm expecting. I know the response I would get. I absolutely, 100% know what I would get. This is what she would say (as she's said it a million times before):

"I just contact you because I love you and out of friendship. F off and don't talk to me ever again. Don't call me. Don't text me".

That's what would happen. And then she would contact me a few weeks later asking to be my best friend again. It is maddening. I can take her telling me to F off. I really can. If I thought it meant I would never hear from her again. But every time I try to explain how I feel or what she did that pushed me away, it is rage time. And she flips out on me. Calls me names and goes away for a while... . but always, always comes back. It is making me absolutely insane. Really.

Hi willy45,

I went through a similar experience with my wife and I'm sorry that you are going through this, you probably feel confused, hurt and it triggers you as you say. I told my ex that I saw a couple of T's and a P last year and she said the same thing, that there is something wrong with me. There's nothing wrong with seeking the help of a therapist or psychologist. I believe it falls into her black and white thinking, by telling her that she caused me much pain, and the need to seek professional help, it makes her feel guilty. She can't cope with those feelings, she then tries to make me look like there's something wrong with me. Try not to take it personal, it's easier said than done, and it takes time. Learn as much as you can about BPD.


A boundary can be to not pick up the phone so that you don't get triggered. Take care of you and your health.

Really, it's not so different than relationships with addicts/alcoholics. To be concerned with what you have the power to change. Which is not another human being.

You have choices. Accepting that the type of empathy you desire is unavailable from her, and that is unacceptable, or accepting its unavailability and appreciating her other qualities. But, trying to squeeze water from a stone will only result in your continued suffering.    

Yeah. You guys are all correct. I know this. It is just hard for my mind to reconcile it all. I guess what my hope in doing this would be to have her stop contacting me. But yes. I will likely never get that and I should give up on the idea, just as I gave up on the relationship for the very same reason.

So... .

Do you guys think that I should send her an email telling her that I am going NC? The last we left it she begged me to be her best friend again and I told her that I would find it extremely hard to do that but that I would give it a shot. I said this despite bombs going off in my head. It wasn't what I wanted. I just felt sucked in... . Clearly, I can't be friends with her. Why would I do that to myself?

So, should I just drop off, change my number, and not contact her or should I send her email explaining it?

Thoughts?

It's difficult and painful, breaking up is hard.

It's still raw willy45. There's nothing wrong with telling her that you need space, that you need to heal. There's nothing wrong with communicating that to her by sending an e-mail. You will start feeling better and see things more clearly by going NC, for now.

Take inventory during that time, and see what you really want.

You've told her before that you didn't want to be contacted, but she did not respect that boundary.  :)o you think notifying her again would change that, or trigger her disorder even more?

Each one of our situations are different, even though they have many similarities.  In the end, only you know the best way to enforce your No Contact.

For me, it was blocking without a word the first time she became abusive after the b/u.  She was already with the new man, but still felt like taking a 'victory lap' as I called it, trying to make me feel low.  I did not need that, and I did not tolerate it.

There seem to be two schools of thought on this, yes and no.   I can tell you, in my experience only, "no" was the answer for me.

With contact, the range of possible outcomes include: (a) no response, (b) angry response, (c) sad response, or (d) "you can't do that" response.  Each of these likely re-engage you in the relationship, either feeling bad, or defensive, or angry.

With no "final" e-mail, range of outcomes include:  (a) no response or (b) she seeks you out again.  Still, you can take actions to make that unlikely (i.e., changed phone number, new skype name).  And, you re-draw and re-affirm your boundaries.

I'm in the no further contact camp.  

Yeah. I guess I can't see any positive outcome in the 'yes' camp. Really.

I think the 'no' camp is the healthiest for me.

Because being honest with a Borderline is like speaking to them in Chinese. It doesn't compute and your version of the "truth" isn't decipherable to them due to their mental illness. My question to you is how are you working on detaching?

The only honesty that should matter at this point is honesty with yourself. You've been out of this relationship over a year and a half yet your ex seems to still have a considerable amount of power over you. Have you asked yourself why?

These are questions to think about. A year after being out of my relationship I also suffered with PSTD as well. I woke up with night sweats, had crazy insomnia, and awoke from panic attacks in my sleep.  I am one of the rare cases on here who's actually been physically assaulted by their borderline. What made this breakup especially difficult was my ex living directly across the street from me. Lucky me. I get to see him with conquest after conquest while I drowned in tears nightly. It was like chewing glass.

In year two of the breakup I was still very much connected to my ex because detaching wasn't my goal. I kept the relationship so alive in my mind with anger, resentment and disappointment. So much so that it was almost like the ex never abandoned me. If I got a text from him it would send me spiraling. I'd want an apology and simultaneously would want to read him the riot act and possibly push him into traffic for all the pain he caused me. Do you see how this spin cycle never ends unless we detach? Detaching is hard. It's fully letting go of the hope that this person will someday love you and become the person you were dreaming they'd be for you and I resisted for a long time.

I didn't want to let go of the pain because then he'd be gone out of my life for good and that scared the crap out of me.

Are you seeing a T? Your ex will never understand "honesty" because a mental illness is in control of her mind.

Spell

technical error in posting.

Hi All,

Ok. So here is my current insane thought that I should probably be talked down from.

Should I have stayed?

So, here is where I am getting tripped up. I left my ex for someone else. This, obviously, was not ideal and I regret having done that. It was not fair to my ex and it wasn't fair to this new woman. But, here is what went down... .

I was in a long distance r/s with my ex for years. I would go down to visit at least once a month for a couple of weeks. She was writing her dissertation and didn't have a job. I had a job where I was. She came up to visit me once and had a complete mental breakdown. Her stress around her dissertation was so heavy that she worked 18 hours a day on it, for two years. Her taking a break from it to 'spend time with me' was seen as a glorious and gracious event. Mostly she would just yell at me for distracting her. Anyhow, I didn't want her to move up with me because a) she didn't have a job, b) when she did spend time here she would have mental breakdowns all the time (I had to pick her up from the local university and found her sitting on the curb balling her eyes out while people walked around because she didn't get enough work done), and c) I felt like if she moved here, I would be trapped and the rage and anger would continue.

So, I would go visit her. It suited me better this way as I could feel like I was on vacation while she worked. I enjoyed it. Except for the rage episodes. Then I would want to escape back home.

This went on for a couple of years. She would tell me that her raging at me (to the point where I would hide from her under the bed) was caused by my lack of commitment to her and that if I just moved in with her, it would stop. I didn't really believe her. Do you think she might have been right?

Towards the end and after having spent an hour under the bed, I met someone I liked. She seemed nice and kind. It took me a while to get the courage to leave my ex but I did after a three day rage-a-thon where she screeched at me for any number of things such as peeing on the side of the road (I have a bad bladder and I would otherwise have peed in the car), not wanting to sleep on a blow up mattress when it was hot and I was sticking to it when there as a deluxe king sized bed that she was sleeping on by herself (it's a long story... . but basically because of her raging at me at night, we decided we couldn't sleep next to each other), and to not wanting to sit beside her for breakfast (even though she woke up at 2pm and I was pacing around the house for 5 hours waiting to do something... . I wasn't mean to her... . I just had ants in my pants and wanted to move around and do stuff).

Anyhow, I met someone who was cute and nice and had a great smile. She seemed really kind and gentle. She had a great laugh and seemed really sweet. Nothing over the top. No crazy eyes. Just seemed like a really nice, gentle person. So, I left my ex.

So... . I know, I know, I know... . I shouldn't have left my ex for someone else. That's not cool. I get that. I've sorted that out on my end and figured out why.

What I'm trying to figure out is whether or not I could have fixed the relationship with my ex if I HAD been more committed and if I HAD moved in with her, and if I HAD made her a more complete part of my life. I didn't do those things. I was honestly scared of her. There were a million red flags before we got together (she was dating a man 30 years her elder, was in al-anon, had tons of health problems, had cheated on her ex with probably 5 people that I knew of, was at one point hospitalized for an eating disorder, hitch hiked across the middle east, was basically ostracized in the graduate program we were in because she slept with another student while she was dating said 30 year old man, and on and on and on and on... . Too many to list).

Arg. Writing this helps. Maybe the real question should be 'Why Did I Stay So Long?'

I guess it's been a year and half since the split. I'm still obviously not doing great. She, on the other hand, has a fantastic high powered job in some of the highest levels of government. She's got a new boyfriend. And she seems to have 'gotten over me' and wants to be friends. The most annoying thing is that I am now working at the same levels as her, work with the same people, and am part of that world now. Even more annoying than that is that she would not have had the job if it wasn't for me. I paid for her internship. I paid for her trips to go to conferences to network with people. I basically wrote her Master's degree (she totally would have flunked out). Oh man. Oh man... . No good deed goes unpunished. I think really, really, really in the back of my mind, I was helping her get to a point where she could get a job so I could dump her without her being suicidal (didn't work by the way... . she was still suicidal... . so she tells me). But while she was writing her dissertation, she worked so hard that she got arthritis in both her arms to the point where she couldn't type anymore. So, she had to use a special dictation software. I just didn't feel like I could dump her then. And she was so broke and crazed, I just didn't feel I could. And then I helped her get this absolute dream job. And she's really successful at it. And now I have to continue to deal with her in my world! AGGGGG!

Why is life so annoying! Man oh man. I seriously could not make this up. I wish I could give more details because they are too weird.

Ok. I apologize to everyone and anyone who actually read this post. Hope you got something out of it. I enjoyed writing it, even though it probably makes no sense.

Oh yeah. My question... .

Should I have stayed? Would that have made it better? If we had gone to counciling, would it have made a difference?

Wow. Thank you so much for this post and the honesty here. I really appreciate it. Especially the truth about your PTSD experience. I'm glad to know that others have experienced it to.

Your question is a good one. Why does she have so much power over me? That is the question that is truly making me crazy. I was doing well before I answered her call. Really. And for the past 12 months, I basically ignored.

What is this power? I honestly have no idea. I'm trying to figure it out. I'm working with a T. I think part of the power is me wondering what power she has. Does that make any sense? Probably not. I guess I try to look at it objectively and I can answer that 1) she was abusive with me, 2) I couldn't spend my life with her and have a shot at having my own, 3) I would never in a million years want to have a child with her, 4) I deserve and can get way better, and 5) I don't ever want to talk or see her again for as long as I live. These are all object truths that I know in my mind. I can rationally say them to myself. And I can honestly say that these statements are 100% true.

What I don't get is why I go into an absolute tailspin when she calls. I think I am afraid of her power over me. She is extremely manipulative and very, very smart. She knows all my buttons and she knows how to press them. I am still extremely attracted to her physically (still fantasize about her relatively frequently to the point that it is almost a fetish). I now work with the same people she works with. I'm a pretty smart and creative person and she is one of the few people that I've ever met that can keep up.

So, I guess those are the reasons why I'm still stuck. I haven't been able to replace the sex. I haven't been able to replace the intellectual connection. I haven't been able to replace the shared sense of humor. And I guess I am longing for those things. I guess what I need to do is really make those things happen for myself.

And yes, I would have been just so super awesome to have all these things without the emotional abuse and crazy behavior. But they are the same package. I think part of my mind still splits her into two different people. The crazy abusive person who would rage at me all the time and then blame me for it. And the person who was sweet, sexy, smart, exciting, and awesome. I keep longing for the second person and hoping the crazy abusive boundary buster is gone. But, it is so hard to reconcile in my mind. I guess part of the abuse is believing the bull___ lines that are fed to you. Part of it is believing their words rather than their actions. Part of it is the mandatory acceptance of their lies in order to continue the relationship. The usual... . I'm sure you've heard it here a million times and have experienced it yourself.

Anyhow... . great question. I think this is the one key I need to figure out so that I can be free. Because that is really, really, really truly what I want. I want her to go away. I want to get back to where I was two weeks ago, conquering the world and doing awesome stuff.

Thanks.

Hey Willy,

I totally understand your perspective. The sex with my ex was awesome and he was probably one of the most physically attractive men I've ever dated. But guess what? My ex is very ugly on the inside. The inside is what counts and if you're overvaluing your ex's beauty you've got some serious recalibrating to do.

The inside counts. How your ex treated you counts. Sounds like you haven't detached. There's still a part of you that's looking for her replacement and since you haven't found it you aren't fully willing to let go of the ex in your mind. Sounds plausible.

But until you make detachment your goal you will forever live in emotional limbo. One foot in; one foot out.  Wanting her but resentful that she's a complete looney.Wanting pieces of her but not accepting the psychotic parts that are essentially her as well. Ignoring your ex but still so attached to her that a phone call from her could throw you for a loop.

As gorgeous and intelligent as my exbf was there's a part of me that had to accept that he sucked. He was a terrible boyfriend, a selfish lover, manipulative, cunning, and I'm so glad I never had his child. Talk about purgatory. Usually when we overvalue some else's looks it's because we aren't confident in our own prowess: our esteem, our worth, our sexiness, and our otherwise awesome qualities that make us a good catch. Since we don't see that in ourselves we tend to overvalue who our ex's are when in reality they are hell on earth and nothing much to write home about.

I think you know what you need to do for yourself. Stop waiting for this woman to come to her sense's and rescue you.  She cannot bail you out and she'll never be the source of your happiness. She has a mental illness and it cannot be scratched out like dandruff flakes. It's hard-wired into her character.

Spell

Ha ha. That's great and totally on the money. I guess my ignoring was part of my strategy to detach. I was absolutely getting better and could feel my mind starting to make sense of everything. And you are right. This person is who she is. And yes. I don't value enough what I bring to the table. I get told all the time that I am 'eye candy' and 'super hot'. I just don't believe it. And yes. I am super smart and very successful in my field. I just don't feel that way.

I don't want her back. I am clear about this. I want the fantasy that she projected sometimes. But in reality, that fantasy, even the sex, kind of sucked. She is looney. And volatile and dangerous. She never hit me but she got awfully close.

Why am I still attached? That is something I need to figure out for sure.

Oh... . And thanks for your thoughts and efforts on this post. Very helpful!

Couldn't be further from the truth

As regards ego boosting, I would feel the same way if I were contacted again, but once we reach indifference we will not care what they message us, whether they are happy, sad, excited, scared etc, etc, etc.

I yearn for that day, what am empowering feeling indifference will be.

Way to go Willy45, that is great!

Short truthful answer is "probably not".

We teach people how to treat us by what we positively and negatively reinforce. We can't choose how they react though. For example say your ex learned that every time she yelled at you that you would yell back. Maybe her reaction to you yelling back is to go silent, step back and reason with you, or to escalate her yelling, but you don't get to choose her path. She owned her part just like you owned your part in things.

The upshot is that you could only have changed yourself and she would've had to choose to change herself for the outcome to be different. Even if you could go back in time and do everything different, if she wasn't ready to take care of her part, things still wouldn't have worked out.

It's natural to ruminate. Once you realize what you can and can't control, that is when you can start to feel peace. 

I don't know what's the right answer for your situation, but I can tell you about mine.

I spent over a decade with my ex. During that time, I tried to change her, I tried to convince her to change, I encouraged her as she took steps to change herself, I supported her when she couldn't work. Also, I worked on myself and made some pretty dramatic changes there as well. Eventually I realized that I was the only part of the relationship I had any control over, but I just kept forgetting that fact over and over again. I kept thinking that if I changed enough, she would, too. We took breaks from each other in order to try to get individually healthy so that we could have a healthy relationship. I was convinced that there was always just one missing piece, and if that piece was put in place, the whole relationship would run like a well tuned engine (I'm going to run with this metaphor). But no matter how many times I replaced a defective part, or got an alignment, or an oil change, adjusted the valves, etc., our relationship wouldn't run smoothly. The last "major overhaul" consisted of us going NC for almost a year, her doing pretty extensive work on herself the whole time, me in therapy, starting yoga and running, going on meditation retreats among other changes. I really thought that we had made such incredible progress that we were destined to live happily ever after. 3 months after re-engaging, she confessed that she had been seeing someone else the entire time. I was devastated again. Even with all the work I had done, I couldn't see that she was still a lying, manipulative cheater. I think that's because I was no longer able to see who she actually was, but was always viewing her and our relationship through an idealized filter.

Now I'm in the agonizing process of stripping away those filters and seeing the relationship, her, and myself in a more realistic light. Part of that has been recognizing that the dynamics of the r/s - the ingrained beliefs, attitudes and behaviors - are quite likely beyond repair. It's a very bitter pill to swallow,but the sooner I take the medicine, the sooner I'll start to feel better.

Yeah. Thanks guys.

I was thinking about it last night and I had a thought which really helped.

I have been doing a lot of work on myself over the past 1.5 years. I can say with 100% certainty, if I was in a new relationship with someone who did anything like she did to me, I would be out the door. I would be done. I have been much better able to establish boundaries and trust myself that these boundaries are good and should deserve respect. So, if I was to imagine the relationship again in this context, it wouldn't work. I would walk out the door and leave. This is, of course, in the hypothetical situation where I am with someone new who pulled the kinds of things my ex did.

So, that's a good start, I think. What I keep expecting for whatever stupid reason is that she has done a bunch of work too. But, this is clearly not happening. I think a pre-condition of me being friends with her in any real capacity is going to have to be that she has done some work on herself and understands what she brought to the table. I know that this will never happen. And I just need to let go. The person that I am so attached is dysfunctional, angry, and abusive. The fact that she continues to reach out to me despite my telling her not is just more proof that she never REALLY cared about me as a person but rather only cared about me in relation to her. And this is a recipe for abuse. And it is likely to continue should I give her any emotional strength over me.

Anyhow, I thought I would share this. This idea that if she were a stranger or someone I had just hooked up with helps to clear the FOG. Now, I need to really stick to this reality. Nothing would have changed if I had stayed. I can't listen to her words that are in my head about how everything would have changed if I moved in with her. I didn't really believe them, obviously, because I didn't. But there is some doubt there. And I think that doubt is what is holding me back from truly just letting go.

It might help to step away from her behavior for a minute and self reflect on these last two weeks.

1. You have a troubled relationship

2. You get involved with another girl

3. You dump her

4. You take her call after month of not taking her calls

5. She wants to be friends

6. You call her back and profess your love (despite saying you didn't want to get back with her and advice her to go very slow)

7. She says she just wants to be friends - says she has a boyfriend but even if she didn't... .

8. You agree to give it a try but say it hurts.

9. You are very angry with her for setting your recovery from the relationship back to ground zero

10. You decide to go NC and not tell her.

11. You visit her town on business and are temped to send a hurtful text (but don't)

12. You wonder if you hadn't gotten involved with another women and instead went to counseling would it have been different?

No judgement - promise.  Just laying it out in one place.

Without knowing much of the story, she sounds like she was emotionally fragile and volatile when she was in school and the relations was, a best, on very rocky ground. You were resentful of her treatment of you (and rightfully so).  You left in a way that was probably very painful for her (anyone) and went NC (more painful).  

She tries to contact you for months (and that is pretty loaded - NC is hard on people) and you finally engage her but your emotions take over and the call is a bit humiliating for you  Afterward you feel that she doesn't care enough for your hurt.  She says "please don't hurt me".

I think we can all understand both sides feeling hurt.

So here were are today.

In working through this, the first place to start may be to look to look at your level of detachment.  You are extremely emotionally attached to her.  What she says, doesn't say, might be thinking hugely affects your emotional well being for days.  Just visiting her town with her not knowing evokes a lot of emotion. You're 9+ months out and you haven't let go very much.  

Is it that you really want to go back but are conflicted because there is a part of her you can't deal with?  Are you feeling guilt for how you left?  If it is anything like this, you are re-living the choices you had almost a year ago. This is where the attachment is likely coming from.  

But that time has passed. You can't go back. There is no do-over. . .

She worked through the hurt she had from the way the relationship ended and detached - she had to - but may still struggle with the way it ended.  She is probably conflicted too.  She may want to undo the feeling of rejection that she felt (which is why she is trying so hard), but the trust has been broken by the betrayal and she is not open to much more right now - maybe ever.

This is understandable, right?

You are in a very different internal conflict - re-living the past and interpreting and reacting to everything as if you are still lovers struggling at the end of a relationship.

Its a different time now.  You are way past that.

Hi Skip,

Yes. I agree with all that. I think the only part that is missing is the behavior on her part that is close to stalking. We mutually agreed to go NC. I left her for someone else. Sure. But that is not really why I left. That was an escape route for me. I left her because she would rage at me all the time and started calling me names and waking me up in the middle of the night to rage at me. She didn't know I left her for someone else. I just left and started dating someone else.

The missing part here is that I was detaching. Detaching for me is a process, not a thing just happens over night if I decide to. Trust me. I don't want to detach. After we broke up, she said the most horrible things to me, pulled the whole suicide thing, and on and on. I went NC because of that. Her behavior since is what I can only describe as stalking. Random calls. Random texts. Emails. And on and on. And the phone call wasn't, hey, let's catch up. It was let's catch up and let me tell you how much I love and miss you and how wonderful you are and blah blah blah. Remember. This was after I told her never to call me again.

The way you make is sound is that she is being totally reasonable and healthy and she is just reaching out to say 'hey, all's good? Good!'. That isn't what it is. It was manipulative. She pulled on every trigger she knows I have to draw me back in. And I didn't profess my love to her. I told her that when she calls me it brings back all these feelings and that I find it very hurtful. Her answer was, I understand, let's be best friends. So, she has no respect or caring for how I feel. That is what makes me angry. I don't really care that she's with someone else. That's fine. Hurt a bit but whatever. I'm angry that she uses these manipulative tactics to draw me close, then continues to abuse me once I get pulled in. You don't just tell someone all these things she said if you 'just want to be friends'. And I didn't approach her. I haven't talked to her in a year BECAUSE I want to detach.

So, I appreciate you laying it out like this. But this is really an oversimplification.

And yes. I still have lingering doubts. Don't we all? This is what I'm struggling with the most. I loved her with all my heart. She was the perfect person for me. The person who didn't rage at me for all kinds of nonsense was perfect for me. That is the struggle I am having. Could I have done something that would have stopped it? I know rationally that this is not the case. This is why I left. She told me herself that she wouldn't change as she didn't see anything wrong with it. It was just the way she was (true).

So, what I'm struggling with are two things:

1) Doubts which SHE ingrained in me and continues to even though she 'just wants to be friends'

2) She continues to call me and reach out to me even though I have specifically told her not to. And yes. I'm not perfect. I gave in. My bad. But it is like living in constant torture. I keep thinking I can pick up the phone and there will be a normal human being on the other side that actually cares about me. Not some victim based manipulator who tries to real me in through guilt and idealization and wants me in her life at any cost to me personally. This part sucks.

I was detaching. I was doing well. I would go visit the town she lives in. And the first time was hard but then it got better. Still brought up feelings, but those feelings weren't good. And those feelings were going away. I WAS DETACHING. I was on my way.

It wasn't so much that we talked that has hurt me. That certainly didn't help. It is what she said to me on the first call and what she said to me on the second call. They don't MATCH. You don't tell someone that you are the only person who understands me, you are my best friend in the whole world, you fill an emptiness in me, nobody cares what I have to say but you, I want you in my life, things can be different if it is just to catch up. Come on. How would I NOT be confused? How could I not be hopeful that maybe things had changed? How would I not think she was trying to get back together with me? These are not things that a normal who just wants to be friends would say. And I told her I couldn't be friends with her. I don't have those feelings for her. And it hurt me when she contacted me. A normal person would not take that and think "Ok, great, we are best friends again". And a normal person wouldn't take what I just said and then attack me for all the things I did wrong in the relationship. That is OK. Why would I not be confused. Why would I not be hurt? Why would I not be angry? How is this not manipulative.

Furthermore, one of the last times I talked to her a year ago when she 'just wanted to be friends and I could never be romantically involved with you, ever' she also told me in the same conversation that she misses my c*ck.

My main issue here that I haven't detached. I haven't been able to get the whole view of who she is stuck in my head. I get stuck in the fantasy land. I know this. And I know it isn't healthy. And I don't TRUST her. I don't TRUST that she even knows what she wants. I don't TRUST that she isn't just out to use me and hurt me. In fact, I'm pretty sure it is the opposite. This isn't someone who I wasn't 'not compatible' with. This is someone who was abusive with me for years in a whole number of different ways. And yes. Meeting someone new was certainly an instigator for me to look at what was happening and say to myself "I don't have to live this way". AGG... . Perhaps I am just mental and making all this stuff up. I don't know. I hate this.

Hey willy45,

Thanks for posting. I find your posts interesting to read, as I struggle similarly and had many of the same experiences during my relationship. Except, I picked up the fight with her instead of hiding and would get the silent treatment for days. I also didn't commit (she wanted to get married and have children after knowing me for 2 weeks), we were together for almost 4 years. In the end, I was ready to commit, and she left me for my replacement (her sisters exbf btw., how crazy is that!).

What is different too, is that I want to be with her again. I believe I would understand the dynamics of our relationship better with the newfound knowledge about BPD. I wouldn't take our battles so personal, I would't escalate the discussions (now knowing that they in reality have nothing to do with me, but rather her inner struggles), and be willing to reach out more during silent treatment - I wouldn't before, I would be stubborn and want her to admit to her faults.

Another difference is, that she doesn't reach out. Reading your posts, helps me control my desire to break NC. Because I am sure I would end in the same place as you. The breakup is 11 month ago, and I have been in strict NC since xmas. And yes, I understand what you say about detachment. Getting in contact with her again, would probably reset me back to xmas.

3 days before the relationship ended, I prayed to the universe if I could please start over. New name, new identity in a new city. This while driving to work. I would commute 2 hours to the airport where I worked (I'm a pilot). I then though, "ha, I don't need a new identity, I could just move to the city where the airport is located". I then though, "what are the girls like here, who do I know that is from this city". And a colleague from my old company came to mind (mind you, which was located in a different airport far away). She was a pretty girl, that I had interest in before I met my ex, and was originally from the area where I now worked.

Getting out of my car, which girl was standing there on the parking lot having a smoke before going in for work? You betcha! My old colleague, whom I hadn't seen for 3-4 years (she had left my old company, shortly after I met my ex). She remembered me too and we embraced and kissed each other on the cheeks. During the conversation she asked me if I was still together with my ex. And my reply to that was? "No"!

3 days later I came back home from work, and my ex broke up with me.

2 weeks later I got a promotion and was relocated somewhere far away from her (to a 4th city, sorry if it's confusing). Point is, sometimes be careful what you wish for, the universe hears everything!

So in sorts, kind of like your:


Except, nothing more happened here due to the circumstances, and me completely losing interest after my ex broke it off with me.

What happened to the person you are describing?


I ask that too, what if I had committed earlier? Well, I still didn't have any knowledge about BPD. So our interaction would not have been different. Instead of a relatively simple breakup, I would perhaps have been facing divorce and a shared custody over children, have had a lot of economic costs (child support etc.), and another man raising my kids. Probably I dodged a bullet based on instincts.

willy45, i have to say that pretty much agree with Skip on this one. on all accounts. I think the problem is that your thoughts are in-congruent, which is understandable to a degree. I believe all/many people trying to leave an abusive r/s feel this way.

now, you've said in many ways how in-congruent you ex is. stalking you, treating you 'nice', then being abusive... . over and over and such. and you've also admitted how you tend to cycle back and forth and are still working on your own detachment.

while one minute you admit that you are still attached, another minute you claim I WAS DETACHING--i think you may be overestimating your level of detachment in this situation. no doubt you were trying, but it's hard for me to see much blame on your ex at this point, only because you have so much evidence now to know who she is. 

for example, when you say:


well, if this was the first time this woman did this to you, or maybe it was the second time she did it, I could totally see anyone being confused. i asked myself these same questions--but the important thing is that i didn't ask myself these question 3 or 4 or 8 or 10 times. it only took me twice to get the picture that this chick was selfish, would lie and seek the comfort of other men and would do anything she felt would keep my hooked simply to satisfy the needs of her ego.

right now if she calls you up, being nice and suggesting you are her best friend/soul mate, if you still believe this after years of repeated betrayals from her then i feel you have to take full responsibility for your reactions now. and, i'm not saying that haven't been trying, i can tell that you have. getting therapy is excellent and shows you've been working towards this goal. honestly though if you were to start another post and start asking the same questions you're asking above, about how she could be this way or how she could act like that--my first thought would be, why hasn't willy45 accepted her fully for who she is? i'm not a psychic and i can pretty much tell you how she will behave in the future.

none of the questions you are asking are invalid. however after so much time and so many instances over and over i do feel the onus is on you now. your ex only cares about her own agenda, the reason why she keeps contacting you again and again is because you keep giving her whatever she wants. cut her supply

Hi All,

Thanks. I think it is finally sinking in.

1) This girl is a nutter.

2) I wish she wasn't.

3) This girl is a nutter.

4) I wish she wasn't.

Rinse. Recycle. Repeat.

Yes. I have all the evidence I need. I cannot understand her. I have tried. I can't. I spent the majority of our relationship trying to get away from her. I am still obviously deeply attached. I was asking something of her which she is not capable of giving me... . space and time to heal and detach slowly and at my own pace. Yes. That is the crazy part of me. I am longing and yearning for someone who doesn't not exist, who never existed, who I spent 70% of my time in the relationship trying to get out. And yes. It was always up to me to leave. I let it happen. I got taken advantage of. I got used. And if I let her, she will do it again.

Goldylamont, thanks for that quote about not being a psychic but still knowing what she will do. I know too. I think that is why my thoughts have been so all over the place. I deeply yearn and long for someone who isn't there. My mind is in constant battle and I can't sort it out because there is nothing to sort out. There are no answers. All I can look at is past evidence as a way to predict the future. If I do that, I am 100% certain I made the right choice in leaving. It was scary. I was scared. I was terrified of having a family with her.

So, three things I did over the past day to start detaching again.

1) I sent her an email telling her that I appreciated her offer of 'friendship' but that I just can't do it because it is too hurtful for me. I told her that I knew her intentions were not to cause me harm but that the result is painful regardless. I wished her all the best but asked her to not contact me or respond to the email as an act of 'friendship'.

Now, I don't think this is going to stop her. I have sent similar emails in the past. This time, I am going to change my phone number so then at least there is only one avenue to contact me and that is through email (Gmail goes straight to trash but I have to clear it... . which is dangerous). Regardless, I will not have to worry every time the phone rings or I get a text message. I did this for me. I need to not have contact with her. I am obviously still attached for some sick reason despite the verbal and emotional abuse. I haven't worked that out yet and I need time (maybe a year or two) to do that. And that's OK. I don't need her to judge how quickly I will heal from this.

2) I spoke to a mutual friend and got some validation from her about one particular incident where my ex had a public meltdown. It was the only time I could think of where there was someone else who witnessed it and it was around someone that I was once close with (this mutual friend). I hadn't talk to this mutual friend since I left my ex and so she didn't know why I did. I told her my entire side of the story... . the raging, the yelling, the hiding under the bed, the public meltdowns, the constant blame, the gas-lighting and the constant contact after the breakup. I didn't even need to mention the example of what I wanted to talk to her about. She brought it up herself and apologized for not having talked to me then about it. She said: "Yeah, X is really fun to hang out with and so accomplished but sometimes she says or does something and I'm like 'huh', that was weird". She then told me that she was recently thinking that maybe she would tell my X that therapy might be a good thing for her to do. I didn't ask why (none of my business) but got the sense that something was going on. Again, no idea what and I don't really care.

3) I just sat down and cried for two hours. Really grieved again. Grieving all the things that I thought was there that I miss so much. When I was done, it dawned on me that I am grieving something that didn't really exist, or at least didn't really exist on its own separate from the rest.

I think my ability to differentiate between the 'good' x and the 'bad x has been severely hampered. I loved the good. I adored the good. The good was everything I ever wanted. The bad was terrible. Hurtful. Vengeful. Angry. Needing. Abusive. And the bad always told me it was MY fault that the good wasn't there. So, I believed that bad person because I just wanted the good to come back. This relationship was 7 years and my engagement with her is now going on 10 (including pre and post shinanigans.

So, ten years of conditioning. That's a long time. That's more than 25% of my life. No wonder it is so confusing and disorienting.

But you guys are all correct. I have to draw the line in the sand once again and defend it at all costs. I think changing my number will make it easier for me. I need to take time and space to start the healing process again and start to see the world more clearly. And yes. I need to accept that this person is not well and will probably never be well. And I need to accept that there is something missing in my life or in my own constitution that makes me susceptible to this person. I need to do the work now. I've accepted this. Drawing the boundary once again was a good thing for me to do. I know I have done it before and haven't been able to maintain it. Hopefully if I change my number she will call it and hear that it is disconnected. That would be awesome.