Print Page - Scratching my head again

The positive: The past few days have been the best in terms of her mood and stability in probably a year. Yeah, there was one episode related to meeting my sister, but overall this is a welcome relief! She's made two dinners in the past week - without complaining! And - she helped take the trash can to the street, has apologized for hurtful or manipulative behavior, acts a bit more optimistic, and troubling things haven't been troubling her for as long.

But today, I am drawn back to the diagnosis criteria for BPD after answering a person's post on the intro board. I've been reading over the diagnosis and treatments, and am just scratching my head. She easily meets all 9 criteria in the DSM-IV. Not only does she meet them, she readily admits to them or makes direct statements supporting them. "I feel empty." "Why can't I keep friendships or jobs?" She's was diagnosed BPD many years ago. She's gone through years of DBT. She readily admits to the criteria of BPD. So why doesn't she recognize this for what is and able to consciously stop it?

When I know I have a behavior or action that is holding me back, I consciously try and change that. But with her - she will repeat the same bad decision over and over, despite knowing full well what the consequences will be. and make excuses, or blame others. Does she not believe she has BPD, or that there is such a thing? It just makes no sense. She knows she has issues, has been told what they are, and for the most part agrees with them. So why can't she make the conscious effort to not repeat mistakes? Makes me think there is something else going on - such as brain chemistry - and that there is no amount of conscious effort on her part that can set things right.

Hey Max,

After speaking to my ex the past few days and telling her how proud I am that she's gone to "a" counseling session but all the while hoping that she goes the extra mile to seek CBT/DBT treatment but being told that "I'm strong and can do this myself", I have thrown up my hands and said "I'm a friend if you need me. If you need someone to support you with that; go to "family and friends" meetings, etc, I'd be happy to do that. Otherwise, I pray that you are strong enough to *finally* make some changes *this time*.

She won't though and honestly, I think we nons would have a much better chance at pushing a heroin addict to get help and support and to heal from that than a pwBPD... . because they will never be *cured*. And reading that yours has been through DBT for years just discourages me to the thought that mine could ever be anything more than a "selfie-posting, oh woah is me, I shall overcome" biographer on facebook.

They *do* know that something ain't ticking right. They do want it all to stop so that they can "just love and be loved" but their programming has a large syntax error and unclosed loop in it and unfortunately, nobody has access to the code to make the proper changes. Oh sure, there may be some tweaks that can be thrown in there, but the code is still and always will be fundamentally broken.

I hate to sound so negative but that is my realization. I have offered support, given advice, encouragement and preached until I was blue in the face and all of that has gone in one ear and out the other. She doesn't read past the first paragraph of any email that I send her. If I talk to her in person, she gets those "far away eyes" that tells me she doesn't want to hear any more about herself. I know that I can't "fix" her, but nor have I been able to encourage her to do the work and the research to help herself. Life is just too short to waste it on people that can't... . no, are unable... . to help themselves.

I love her to death, but I'll let my replacement beat his head against the wall and then the next guy, and the next guy, and the next guy.

Good luck brother. Sometimes you just have to pull the troops and concede defeat to save the entire army. Ya know?

Thanks so much, guys. I don't know if my post was just a vent, or a plead for some kind of hope. She knows, she understands, but when does the change happen? I suppose over the long scale, change has happened. She no longer cuts, she no longer uses Heroin. But she has to know on some level her spending and her sleeping around (prior to me) are addictions as well, and if I wasn't around she'd do the same damn thing all the while articulating how bad it is for her.

The other morning she asked me if I threw tantrums as a kid. I said "no, not that I have heard about". She then asked if I thought she threw tantrums. I said "yes". She asked why I thought that. I said "well, most kids do, so I was playing law of averages." She replied, "Oh, I thought it was because I throw tantrums now." And last night she was talking about a behavior women have in Korea where they get upset in public and stomp their feet and act like babies to get what they want from their men. She said how sexist and screwed up that is. I replied, "well, many women act like that here." To that she said, "Yeah, I guess I act like a baby sometimes to you."

She also remarked last night that she was talking to her aunt about me, saying "we don't really argue. Well, he doesn't really argue. I argue, and he doesn't argue back, so I give up, feel stupid, and apologize." The aunt replied, "that's just like my husband!"

All these things she can see as issues, yet no change in behavior. She will remark how she needs to exercise more or she will wind up like her dad, yet can't force herself off the sofa to walk to the end of the street and back. She will remark how she needs to be independent and have hobbies, yet all she thinks about are things that I can do with her. She's even remarked how she feels like she has no identity.

It all makes me think that there must be something else going on - something different about the way her brain is set up - and I don't know if this is a BPD thing, because from what I have read pwBPD can change their patterns with appropriate therapy and work once they accept they have a problem with their behavior. She's also diagnosed bipolar, although I am not sure I agree with that diagnosis. Also diagnosed PTSD, but I think this started way before many traumas in her life. I do wonder if a decade or more of drug use starting at an early age damaged her brain, but again it sounds like the pattern was already in place before she started using.

From my end - I hear her remark about how something she is doing is wrong or bad, and that gives me so much hope and I then expect a breakthrough or a change - yet a few days later it's back to square one. This certainly does affect me being "undecided" - because I do need to see progress in her to move forward, and I think I see progress, then I realize that it's just words and not actions, and wonder if that's the way it was for all the boyfriends for the decade before me.

I just got tired of hearing the words and not seeing the proper action, or inaction. And my apologies for the heroin reference, I had no idea about your gf. Be proud that she has kicked that and it does sound like she has made some steps in the right direction.

You know my story. I would spend the entire week with my ex; hear how much she loves me and how I "understand" her and how close we are and how sorry she is for everything and just as I'm feeling good about what I'm hearing and thinking that change is coming, she goes and spends the night with my replacement because she's "stuck" and "doesn't want to hurt him or his family".

Now your situation is different than mine in that yours isn't seeing someone else and it sounds like yours is getting the right kind of treatment (though mine had her 2nd appointment this morning). I guess the question to ask yourself is "how much change does she need to make in order for me to feel comfortable marrying this woman and how long do I give her time to make that change?". What if somehow you were to know that she would get no better whatsoever, but also would not get any worse. Would you be ok with that? If not, what thing(s) must be changed (or controlled) in order for you to be ok about the r/s? When I asked myself those questions, it was just too much needed change and even *if* she could change/control/modify her behavior, I know that it's years and years away and continual work to just "maintain".

Good questions, I/O. I think about this often. Part of my issues in answering that center around the potential for children. I may be okay with the current situation as long as it does not get worse. But I know I can't raise a child in that situation. To raise a child I would need to see:

- A significant decrease in violence, and that includes violent language. The throwing things and raised voices and desperate pleas need to become rare, occurrences. Twice a year instead of twice a month.

- A significant change in her contributions to the relationship and the household. Even though she doesn't like to, I do need her to part in cleaning and cooking and grocery shopping ON HER OWN.

- A change in personal mood - I'd like to see a majority of days either happy or neutral. Nothing wrong with being depressed, but it cant be for 6 days a week. No more waking up grumbling and being lazy for a few hours. If we had a child, that child would need his/her needs met - and one of us will have to go to work.

If she was to come to me and say, "I don't feel happy enough to have a child, but I would still like to be with you," that would show me command over her life and make me feel much more secure for the future. But I know it's ultimately going to come down to the child issue.

Child aside - I really don't need anything from her to change, I just need to know what "stable" is for her. If she can't hold a job, that's fine, as long as she accepts that and doesn't make that my problem. If she doesn't ever want to clean, that's fine, as long as she is okay with a messy house. But right now, she can't accept either of those two examples - she occasionally puts it on me that I don't make enough money. And she will claim the house is too messy and will not want to look at it, yet won't clean. I really need to see a harmony between what she says she wants/needs and what she is capable of.

Thanks everyone - real good insights and advice, and all much appreciated as it helps me think about things from different perspectives.

Last night, she handled dinner again - for the third time in a week! No, she didn't cook, but she went to the store and got a prepared meal, mostly on her own (she gave me a choice of A or B). And she didn't complain. And I thanked her for dinner. What's important for me here is to not have to come home from work to be greeted with "I'm hungry". After dinner, she said she had been feeling different the past few days. I asked her how and why she thought that was. She said she has been getting moments of "acceptance" but it's not happiness. She doesn't know why or if anything prompted it. I told her I noticed a mood change and it has been welcome.

And then - she tried to persuade me not to go to my Nar-Anon meeting, saying we could have sex instead. I reminded her that the meeting was important for me, so she decided to go to an AA meeting at the same time. After I cam home, we were sitting on the sofa, and she remarked under her breath "you don't love me." Umm. That's an invalidation. Yep, BPD still there. And as we were lying in bed, "I love to touch you but you don't like to touch me." BPD again. Still I see overall progress.

BTW, she hasn't officially started the job yet. I have my fingers crossed, but history says it will last 2-3 months before she quits over stress. If we get past that threshold, talking about starting a family may be prudent. But she may decide "enough with his rules (boundaries)" and decide a different course. I would be heartbroken, but really I already am heartbroken. I just know it would probably destroy my life if we had a child before she showed any capably of taking care of herself. Her leaving me would be ugly and she would try and blame me, but I think I could get over that in time.

I/O - yeah, sounds like a similar situation. It's likely this could be the eventual breaking point for this r/s. And it's just so confusing because at times if feels like she understands and the corner is about to be turned. She wants the same things as me! She wants to feel secure for the future, and secure in the relationship, just like me! So, I think we should have a point of agreement - but then I realize we must live in different universes. I shouldn't even have to explain how I need to feel secure financially and emotionally before having a child, because I would think that's the same kind of security she would want. But somehow it doesn't work that way for her. I'm not sure if it is her biologic clock and hormones mixing in, or if it is the BPD and not understanding personal and relationship responsibilities.

And thus - the head scratching. Why is she blaming me for feeling uneasy about having a child, when she knows full well that she is struggling to even take care of herself? I know she understands - she's vocalized that before: "I sometimes worry that I won't be a good mother because I am too depressed."

My GF had an abortion, too, about 2 years ago. It was another one of those "traumatic experiences" that she put herself in. She says she has regret over it, and of course blames the "father" for her decision. But here are the facts as I see them - she was living overseas. I don't think the "father" was someone she considered a "boyfriend" - see she doesn't understand the whole dynamic between friends, sex, and boyfriends. *SHE* chose to not use any kind of birth control. And my guess is she manipulated him, claimed it was a "safe" time, got pregnant, flipped out on him because he was scared (probably violently), then he tried to convince her to have an abortion claiming she was an unfit mother. I don't blame the guy.

I know some of her desire to have kids is hormonal. But I also know a big part of it is BPD. She's said "If I had a kid, I would have someone who would always love me and never leave... . " And I also think a large part of it is baggage from the abortion. I think she feels that if she had a child, the abortion would no longer hurt.

She seems to be receptive during couples T sessions, and slowly I've been bringing this kind of stuff up. I probably need to be more direct about it, though.

Well, she just called on my lunch break, to tell me she was freaking out again over money. She just talked with the job recruiter for this job about career goals. The recruiter basically told her that there is not much money in this field, to which she freaked out about and then questioned whether she should take the job.

Here we go again.

The good news - I've gotten better at talking with her. So, I reminded her that disability money is guaranteed dead end, so this is definitely a step forward. I reminded her that she can always be looking to move forward, and in a year she may be able to, but she can't unless she takes this step. She pointed out that this is the same pay she made right out of college, and I reminded her that obviously that job did not work out for her and was the wrong field (otherwise she would have been in that field for 15 years now, probably making good money), and that part of moving forward means finding the right fit and moving up. I tried to be as optimistic and uplifting as possible, while reminding her that nothing is going to happen until she climbs that first rung.

And then she started on about how I am not driven, how we are poor, and will always be poor, and she wants both of us to live up to our potentials (basically the blame shift here, AGAIN, to which I am growing very agitated by). But rather than get defensive, I told her that I cannot go down that mental path, because if I let the future consume me, then I can't make good decisions about the steps I need to take today. I told her that too much worry about the future locks me up, and then I will go nowhere, and that I know this because I have been there before - I get depressed, feel sorry for myself, and then just settle. (To be honest here, this r/s is a perfect example of this) I explained that I have to approach life as steps forward in order to be happy today. She then told me that she can't stop herself from thinking that way and hoped she did not ruin my lunch or bring me down.

I hope she listened, but the realist in me makes me think we will have the same discussion when she gets her first paycheck. My hope is to get her to the point where she understands this is about feeling secure about what we have, not about a dollar amount. Basically, I need to know who she is and what she wants (and saying "being rich and having a family" does not answer the question!) And that's the self-defeating thing here - I can't move forward until she lives in the present. Having a plan for the future is healthy, but frantically freaking out because she doesn't have the future RIGHT NOW, and changing her mind ever few months leaves me feeling insecure and undecided.

It is like taking care of a child - only grown child. How can you have children with a child? Doesn't add up. I can imagine situation where I could raise a child on my own - without additional emotional vampire, but together with emotionally unstable woman - sorry, I am not that strong.

Mine also bragged about how she wants kids - 4 of them (at least). She explained it to me pure and simple - kids are easy, you (meaning I) will be good with them (didn't mention anything about her own role - guess just chilling was planned), you will raise them, when they will be old enough they will look after each other. Very simple plan - just no mention about income - if I have to deal with kids, who will earn? She already had planned her maternity leave (she bragged how other women stay at home even till the time the youngster starts college) - she was fed up with her job - complained constantly.

I know that kids are not easy to raise - you have to forget about yourself for a certain time and it is not fair to deprive children of their childhood because parents should take care of their offsprings not their siblings. So much love, care and attention should be devoted to a child. So this imagined utopia of hers didn't resonate with my knowledge of family - but then again she has been raised differently - deprived of attention and love.

In addition in regard to personality disorders I came across information about post pregnancy depression, mood swings and acting out - didn't convince me, that I want such future. What I read was a medical text aimed at natal care specialists - so they would be able to see traits of this post-pregnancy depression, also personality disorders and suggest treatment. Thing is - it can be tough to distinguish if the symptoms are purely post-pregnancy or they are a part of ongoing BPD/NPD. The best part was, that these women MUST have treatment because a child doesn't feel safe when his mother is depressed, angry or anxious. So it interferes with the cognitive and emotional development of a child.

I don't want my child to be emotionally unstable - but as I will have to earn for the living, the most time the child will have to spend with his mother (or on his own). As I know how reluctant my exgf is to acknowledging her issues, I don't see (I don't believe) that she even can get well (at least well enough to be there for the child). So that was a decisive factor for me.

So think really hard - it is not just your life, it is an unborn soul that might be compromised - really think this through, ask the therapist, maybe other specialists - what do they think.

Once again, thanks for the advice and wisdom, everyone. It's much appreciate - keep it coming!

And once again, an interesting and head scratching few days have passed. On the positive, she's now taken care of 4 dinners in the past week! And she's helped with the dishes, cut down on her calling me at work, and generally been more positive and easier to be around. And that has helped me communicate with her more directly. So once again, I see the attempts at moving forward on her part. But, still the same patterns:

- I think I posted the other week about her spending all afternoon at the dealership almost buying a new car at twice her current monthly payment. I had to remind her that the week prior she was telling me how her current car costs too much. Well, this morning I woke up to hear her telling me how she wished she didn't have a car because it was too expensive. I didn't bother to remind her that she was just at the dealership a few weeks ago.

- last night she was supposed to have plans with a friend. She claimed there was a mixup and that she would be home for dinner after all. It's not like her to get her schedule screwed up, so its possible this may be a half truth because she didn't want to be away from me for the evening. But I have no proof of that and it's not even worth pursuing.

- she's been making invalidating comments like "you don't really love me" or "I like to touch you but you don't like to touch me." That's nothing new, but given her more positive mood lately I am disappointed to hear that still. It's control, and I try not to think about it too much.

- And the past two days she has been spending hours a day researching rings online. Uggh. I'm partly responsible for this because last weekend I was showing her some rings I was looking at, partially in relation to a conversation we had a week prior in relation to the value of a particular kind of stone (I'm an earth scientist, and it all started with a question from her). So now she is obsessed. And last afternoon she said after a couple hours of looking she was getting depressed and a headache. So what did she do this morning? Same thing. And an hour later said she was depressed again.

We have a T appointment next week. I really need to bring up a few things during the session because it seems she is receptive lately. I'll give her praise for being happier and explain how it makes me feel more stable about things. But I really need to explain to her that it's okay to dream and plan for the future, but it's not okay to obsess over the future to the point where today's needs aren't met. And I need to set a boundary here - that I won't discuss certain things with her until today's needs are taken care of. I think we can reach something on this issue - I've been chipping away at it. The other day I told her that her calling me and obsessing over money was making it difficult to manage my own life, and that I can't let myself get caught in a pit of worry otherwise I can't take care of myself today. And she seemed to listen.

Our "girls" sound so similar Max, it's eerie.

I was in your exact position 2 years ago. She wanted to get married. Wanted a kid. I could do better with a better job*, house shopping. All the while the back of mind is saying "it's going to be all *me* doing the supporting here... . she brings nothing to the table. Can't hold a job, she'll have a kid and want to sit home all day with her new toy and we're already struggling to pay bills".

I asterisked... . I do have to give my ex credit. She said that I have so much more potential or that I'm better than I am/was in my current job so I told her that I would go job hunting. I pulled up monster.com, did a search in my field, applied to the first listing that came up and said "there, went job hunting". Strangely, I was called in for an interview that week and hired the week after. Been with them for almost 3 years and it's a wonderful company and I doubled my salary. So I'll always owe it to her for the "push" to do better. :)

Back to the similarities. The abortion thing is HUGE with my ex. She'll bring it up every now and then and will start to dysregulate if I ask her anything at all about it. So I have no details about it (it was several years ago) but it affects her deeply. I hadn't thought about what you suggested about having a kid now to replace the one that she aborted. Eeerie.

I'll just reiterate that I *know* that mine felt enmeshed and smothered and had lost hope that we'd ever get married let alone have a kid and a "nice" house together and that's when she started planning her great escape. Almost a year on from that and just last night she's telling me that she's so sorry for all the hurt and pain that she's caused and that she loves me, just me... . but has a weekend planned with my replacement. Not saying that is your future but, that *could* be your future, ya know?

Keep fighting the fight. You love this woman and she's with you now. She's come a long way. Keep working with her and get really involved with the T sessions. Make sure she attends and it's my understanding that most CBT/DBT "courses" have a "friends and family" co-meetings for the non's. You might check in to that. Oh, and did you grab that book "Loving someone with BPD"? Really might help with the communication even more. It definitely helped us communicate better. Couldn't convince her to do squat about her situation, but we can at least talk about it without getting frustrated with one another and going "silent treatment". :)

Last night my SIL (also dBPD) came over for dinner. That was interesting.

SIL was here for business, said she would probably be done by 4. I told her to come over for dinner when she was done. Well, 4-5:00 rolled around and I had not heard from her. My GF sent her a text message and had not heard back from her. So, when I cam home from work, GF said she was feeling "punchy". Uh oh. GF said "maybe she hates me now and that's why she isn't responding. I said "I haven't heard from her either, maybe she is in a meeting and can not talk. GF then starts to dysregulate. Paraphrasing the exchange:

her: "I think it is really rude and direspectful for her to not get back to us and let us know when she will be here."

I started on dinner.

"Why are you starting on dinner? We don't even know if she is coming or whether she will be here?"

Me: "I have no control over that. I trust she will be here. And if she is not, we need to eat anyway."

Her: "I can't believe this doesn't bother you? It pisses me off!"

Me: "Yes, it's frustrating, but I am not going to waste my energy on things I have no control over."

Her: "Your whole family is like this! I can't live like this! Everyone else I know would call or text and make specific plans!"

Me: "That's the way they are, and I can't do anything about it. Maybe she had a late meeting. maybe she hasn't checked her phone. My family are not big cell phone people who respond immediately."

her: "Yes you can! You can have clearer boundaries with your family! I thought you were going to Nar-Anon to help you learn to not let people walk all over you and help you set strong boundaries! I feel you are making excuses for her! You arent even validating my feelings!"

Me: "I already expressed that I found it frustrating. But I also said there was nothing I can do. I want to have a relationship with my family, and I don't see where even bringing this up would solve anything. Am I supposed to tell her I don't want her over if she is not on time? If I set the boundary, will she change the way she is? I am just going to choose to not let it bother me, because I have no control over what she does."

Her: "I can't live like this!"

About 30 seconds later, SIL sent a text, saying "sorry, this ran longer than I expected, and they won't let us have phones in this place because security is tight. I'm on my way"

I relayed this to my GF. She calmed, said, "I think I have control issues." I said, "I don't think it is an issue with control, I just think that you can't process the idea of an indefinite future."

She then left to go to the store. Still no apology for the way she acted, and that hurts a little, but I expect it.

After dinner the two of them talked. Two dBPD women who have had hospital stays in the last year. SIL, though, is high functioning. She's constantly looking at ways to improve herself and can't sit still. She's lost 60lbs since going into the hospital, goes to the gym 5 days a week, got a new job, and is helping someone else open a healthy living resort. Of course I know her track record and know she is exaggerating, and know she will burn out in a few months (but I hope not). SIL was trying to encourage GF, and GF was not that agitated - a good sign.

At one point, SIL started talking about how she quit taking all of her medication because she wants to live naturally. Uh oh. I hope this does not give GF any ideas. SIL said when she was on antidepressants, she was really super aware of her surroundings and everything irritated her, including the sound of my brother chewing. GF then said, well that's how I was before antidepressants (she HATED the sound of my chewing). I chimed in. "Yes, you were constantly criticizing me, every night until you got on meds." Finally, I could express that without her raging!

After SIL left, GF asked, "was I really that bad?" I said "yes". She then asked, "why didn't you leave me?" I said, "well, i loved you, and I knew there wasn't something going wrong with you, and I wanted to see that you got help." The conversation then ended. I was hoping to finally get the, "wow, i'm sorry. I didn't realize how much I was hurting you." But not yet.

My scalp is about bare.

Yes, I'm doing a better job focusing on me. Yes, I'm doing a better job validating and sticking to the truth and being firm. Yes, she's calmer, and doesn't rage as much. But today was one of those ones where I realize once again the true chaotic core of this illness.

She woke up this morning still thinking about my sister in law and things my sister in law said. Some of what my GF and SIL talked about was marriage. I really don't need that subject to be brought up, and I think that got my GFs mind going again. But by this morning, she was questioning whether things my SIL were true or not, and questions about the nature of the relationship my brother and SIL have. But all in all a rational conversation, even if there may have been ulterior motives by my GF.

Then my GF went out with a friend for two hours. WHen she came home, she had something to show me, and was very excited! Uh oh. Turns out, the friend is getting divorced, and gave GF her wedding and engagement rings to that we could take the stones out of them and put them in our own custom jewelry. Damnit And then the obsession started. I of course tried to act somewhat excited - but bow was that weird. Even if this was a healthy, stable r/s with a non-BPD person, that's still weird. I don't even know this woman. My GF barely knows this woman. So I said, "what a thoughtful gesture, but I really don't know what to do in this situation. If feels wierd to me because this woman I do not know and maybe if she was family or a long time friend it would feel different."

GF then responded, "Oh, now I feel like crap, because I don't have a family who would give me something like this. I shouldn't have accepted this. Do you think I should have accepted this? Can I give it back now? Should we give it back now? Oh no! We are supposed to go hiking with her tomorrow, now what do we say? Is she still going to want to be my friend?"

And like that, she obsessed the rest of the day again. So, she decided to get on the computer, and yet again LOOK AT RINGS. And after awhile, sure enough felt depressed and sad again and started crying. So, I got her away from her computer, suggested we go out for awhile. She broke down and cried heavily, saying, "I can't believe the things that come out of my mouth I am so stupid! I just can't stop myself!"

We went to the store, she kept talking about how crappy she felt, and how she wanted to do bad things to everyone she saw. And when an old woman in the store was a little snippy with her, she lost it. She contained herself enough to go out to sit in the car while I checked out.

And when we got home - back on the computer. WTH. She said to me, "I'm doing bad things again and I can't stop." This time - researching baby names that begin with J. ! Not only is she obsessed with having a baby, but is insistent her baby has a name starting with J.

So last week I was seeing improvements - her telling me she is trying to stop worrying about others. I guess not today. Her telling me she feels more accepting of the present time. I guess not today. Her controlling her rage. I guess not today.

Maybe I am just a little frustrated right now, but I've flipped again from being positive and optimistic, to wondering if she is actually getting worse.

Couples T is this week. She's pretty comfortable with this T, and I am feeling more comfortable and confident - so I really need to make this session work for me. Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. I need to be firm about the effect these wild future projections of hers are having on me and my health, and that I will no longer participate until she takes care of today's needs.

Laying in bed this morning I realized that even though there have not been the screaming rages, the disregulation is still happening, at about the same frequency - once a week to once every other week. The meds have probably kept things shorter and less intense, but the same mechanism is there. I just haven't noticed it until this weekend.

And once again, I have gone from, "I feel like I can work on things with her and should post on the staying board" to "this could end this week and i need to prepare for it."

The disregulation regarding marriage (if you know BPD, it really isn't about marraige) never stopped. Sunday, we went hiking with her friends (had a great time, I thought!). But on the way home, GF was obsessing over that ring again. She suggested that I take the ring to a jeweler "just to see" how much it would cost to have the stones reset into custom jewelry. I said that's a good idea, but I can't do that today or anytime soon, because I have too many other things to focus on. (Of course, that was mostly me trying to hint "YOU have a bunch of other things to take care of - focus on the present and not the future". To that she replied, "great, I guess you really aren't interested. You aren't interested in marriage, you aren't interested in me... . " I responded, "It hurts to hear you say that, I'm simply stating that there are other things that need my attention in the short term."

And with that, the conversation was dropped. Or so I thought.

Later in the day after lunch, I was working on things outside, and she was inside on the sofa. She claimed she was "bored". She was watching tv, and then on the computer looking up accessories for guinea pigs. I periodically would come inside, kiss her, smile at her, and she would ask what I was doing or if I was done. By 4pm, I could tell something was troubling her. I sat on the sofa next to her, and she said, "i was looking at rings again, and now I am depressed."

Good lord. Every time she looks at rings she gets depressed. So why look at rings? And the disregulation was now full blown. Same things came out of her mouth - that's I'm leading her on, that I don't care, that she feels like she is running in circles, that she is in great pain over this and I don't care (blaming me for her emotions), that she doesn't even care about rings anymore, that even if I did propose to her, she would feel like it was only because she pressured me, that she now doesn't want to get married at all... .

Eventually, she got up and laid in bed and asked me to close the door to the bedroom. I went outside and finished my tasks, feeling hurt, confused, and upset. After an hour, she got up and joined me outside. She said "I can't live with this pain anymore, I think I am going to have to end things. Maybe I should get my own apartment."

I was quiet. On the tip of my tongue was, "I think that may be a good idea," but for some reason I just wasn't ready to go there. But we talked. First with her disregulating a bit more, now claiming our new therapist always takes my side and supports me on everything (uggh - this again). She mentioned how she feels like I am just dangling a carrot in front of her, how she feels like a fool, how she feels shame. And I stopped her there, and asked her to elaborate on why she felt shame. And that got the conversation moving towards what were probably truer emotions, that her current mood more had to do with her and her than with me. And things got a little more productive after that. By bed time, it was "I want things to be good with us again, can they be good again?

I'd like to be able to have rational discussions with her regarding these issues, but it's just not possible.

I guess the only logical option is - realize this will never work and break up. No matter how much I improve my skills, I can't change her emotions, and a breakup is inevitable. I would prefer to have a second option - that I get to a point of greater acceptance and she work on herself so that we can have something functional and stable, even if it is dynamically stable. But I can't get to that point if she won't get to that point. She feels unstable, and it has apparently come to the point of thinking of leaving, and I can't change that, yet I can't live with that for the same reasons she can't live with that. I can't feel stable unless she shows a commitment to herself, and she can't feel stable unless she *feels* that i am showing a commitment to her. But the way she is now, no matter WHAT I do or show her, she won't feel that.

Max,

I really want to challenge you, because I care and see a lot of my behaviour in your words.

She has given you opportunities to 'complain' by saying things like ":)o you think I threw tantrums" and "Those women stomp their feet" etc... . it sounds like in those cases you 'soothed' her. I use to do the same things. My exBPD would never give me a minute to myself and then she would ask ":)oes it bother you we spend so much time together?". Knowing an honest answer would ensure chaos and wanting her to feel safe, secure and to maintain the slight bit of positive energy and momentum in the relationship meant I backed away from my true feelings.

You may not see it yet but this is confusing both of you. She's almost asking you to tell her you are suffering due to her behaviour. You are so unwilling to upset her by speaking the real truth about how she makes you feel that in the end your feeling towards her becomes increasingly frustrated.

So here is my challenge. Start saying what needs to be said. If she acts out, go take a walk. Don't feel ashamed to be the one to ignore someone who is unwilling to discuss rationally. Don't apologise for saying what needed to be said so long as you did it without malice or spite.

I see this as win-win, if you want to remain in the relationship, her slight awareness will now be related to your honest feedback about how it makes you feel. She may find it a bit shocking and I am sure you will find it challenging to allow the chaos rather than soothe her. If however you do want to end the relationship, she should be better equipped to understand exactly why you are leaving and shouldn't resent you for not giving her an opportunity to change.

My exBPD finds it insufferable that I didn't tell her often enough that things that troubled me, troubled me. I would avoid the truth if I felt it would bring about her rage and fury or play on her insecurity. In a way, I think of this now as positive manipulation. Although our intention is good, it's still dishonest.

Next time she throws you a line like ":)o you I think I would have thrown tantrums as a child?" (example only... take any/many opportunities) be brave and face up to it... . tell her what you really need to say:

"Yes, although it isn't uncommon for some children to throw tantrums to get their needs met, most children are educated away from this behaviour well before they reach adulthood. I still see that sometimes you throw tantrums or rage/cold shoulder to ensure your needs are met, it sounds like you also identified with this in your behaviour, is there anything you need from me to help you to change that behaviour?"

You'll feel awesome for about 1-2 seconds for being more honest with yourself. Breathe. Then whichever way she chooses to respond, take note. Don't soothe. Simply move yourself away from the conversation if she is being unpleasant. If she continues to rage that you are ignoring/walking away then explain that her aggressive response has pushed you away, you can discuss the matter again when she is ready to talk calmly with you.

My wish in challenging you is that one day you won't feel like you failed the relationship by not putting everything on the table.

You sound like a really decent guy, really hope to hear how it is going.

Nick - that is great advice, and the same thoughts have crossed my mind recently. She wants me to say that I am hurt, or tell her how to change, or that she irritates me. And I need to do that better, because at the end of the day, if I don't she will use my apparent complacency against me. If she knows I am irritated (even if I really am not that irritated), maybe she will quit expecting things to happen so quickly. Or, like you said, that at least that gives me peace of mind, and should this r/s fail I will have at least given her the chance to know why it failed.

As I have thought about this, here is what stops me:

- telling her that certain behaviors are not acceptable to me feels like parenting, a role that makes me feel uncomfortable as that makes me feel that her moods and actions and emotions are my responsibility. I like your response about the tantrums - that's a good approach that throws it back on her and avoids the feeling in me that I am parenting her about not having tantrums. I really need to get over this issue, because either way I am going to have to start being more upfront with her if I am ever to escape my own brain. It may give her things to work on and she will back off on future projections, or it may leave her agitated and angry - and either way I have no control over that. But at least it may help to get things "unstuck".

- the very first time in this relationship where I told her that certain behaviors of hers were bothering me ended really ugly, and I think I have trauma associated with that. Basically, what happened is that I told her that her constant negative attitude was difficult for me to live with. I didn't know about BPD at the time, and had I known I may have phrased it differently. But the end result was her screaming at me and insulting me for an hour, her trying to open the car door to exit while I was driving, her saying she wanted to kill herself, punching and throwing things, her scratching at her arm until it bled (she still has a scar a year later), me worried about her out of control behavior, fearing for my and her safety and calling a crisis line who directed me to the police, the police coming over, her screaming at the police, the police advising me to leave my own home because there was nothing they could legally do, and then me packing a bag to leave and her telling me she would kill herself in my living room if I left and that it would be my fault. Rationally, I know I am not the cause of any of that. But emotionally, it's just hard to let go of. When things get heated, my heart races as I fear that situation repeating. So if she were to ask, "Am I too negative?" I fear that if I don't answer correctly, I could be dealing with a life or death situation again. I'm slowly working on that, and slowly learning how to respond in ways that don't cause escalation, but it's just so hard to fight that natural fear sometimes.

Wow Max,

All my sympathy is with you.

I don't believe she'll expect things to happen any less quickly. If she is similar to my ex, the ring is more just another symbol of your utmost devotion. She's jealous that others have them and not her.

Given how extreme her reactions can be, I guess you have to try and select moments which have the least risk for personal injury. If that's how extreme her behavior still is, then you are navigating a field of landmines covered in eggshells. If she really is so unwilling to listen to you and you are afraid to speak up... . It's like a mute person shouting at a deaf person. You can't say what needs to be said and she won't listen regardless.

I think you know the most about how to deal with this and have much more experience in dealing and coping with this. I just wanted to highlight your avoidance for saying what you need to say as I could really relate to this. I didn't fully understand or appreciate your challenges associated with that.

As for the parenting comment, I totally get that. In previous r/s I have left because it felt like I had become a father rather than a partner. I suppose a father is more likely to offer unconditional support, no doubt we have both been guilty of that. I think love and support needs to be conditional, it needs to have well defined boundaries and consequences. I honestly don't know how you go about achieving this. Again, you have my deepest sympathy and respect.

Best wishes!

So here I am spending the day just emotionally and mentally locked up from the weekend. I'm trying to stay focused on other things, but today I'm just mush and can't tell if I am upside down or right side up.

I'd been looking forward to this weeks couples T session, as I figured this would be a good time to work on things with her in a "safe' place, and build on the progress I felt after last session. Now, this weekend's events have me re-thinking everything. I think I forgot to mention that during yesterday's deregulation, she made the claim that the T is always taking my side and must hate her. Crud. Well, after 3-4 sessions with the first T, that's what she concluded, so we found this new one. My feeling is that if she thinks the T is not being objective or is against her, then no more progress will be made.

I did plenty of reading on here today, and thinking, and listening to advice. And I thought about how I should approach things with her, how I should discuss with her what is hurting me, and how we can solve some of these issues. I was starting to get my mind settled - and then -

Text messages began about how she thinks she has ruined her guinea pig, how she is now afraid of her guinea pig, how she thinks the guinea pig is depressed, how she ruins everything she touches, how she should never have children. Just some real hopeless/feeling worthless language. And I have to say I felt quite heartbroken. I did my best to re-assure her, reminded her that her caring heart makes a difference, and that most people would not even consider the happiness of their pets. But she sounds REALLY down today - no suicide talk, but it's the same type of mood I remember from just before she went into the hospital. Probably not the best time to talk about what is hurting me.

In'n'out,

Firstly, love the Doors and Beatles references. You need to listen to "I gave you all" by Mumford and sons. Extract of lyrics below:

Rip the earth in two with your mind

And seal the urge which ensues with brass wires

I never meant you any harm

But your tears feel warm as they fall on my forearms

But close my eyes for a while

And force from the world a patient smile

And how can you say that your truth is better than ours?

Shoulder to shoulder, now brother, we carry no arms

And the blind man sleeps in the doorway his home

If only I had an enemy bigger than my apathy I could have won

But I gave you all

I gave you all

I gave you all

Close my eyes for a while

And force from the world a patient smile

But I gave you all

I gave you all

I gave you all

And you rip it from my hands

And you swear it's all gone

And you rip out all I had

Just to say that you've won

And you rip it from my hands

And you swear it's all gone

And you rip out all I had

Just to say that you've won, you've won

Well, now you've won

Now, back to your post. Do I understand you showed up at the same event as your ex, both with new partners/dates and you had communication with her about the event?

Why are you reluctant to go NC?

You are correct that the BPD, or at least in our shared experiences, will use our words against us. This is irrational in its very nature. Trying to make sense of their response will only hurt and frustrate us. Having read a lot of material from the BPD perspective, it seems they listen-react-ponder-react-see their fault- react. If we bite on those reaction cycles the process stops. I feel it is our right to disengage from our BPD partner if their reaction is to do anything other than listen with the intent to understand. Maybe a more qualified member can share on this topic?

My advice to Max is to say what needs to be said, calmly and with empathy and to remove himself from the conversation if her response is anything but cooperative or demonstrates a willingness to take responsibility and agree on what is required to maintain the boundary.

In_n_out, curious to learn where you are at with your detachment? It's something we all seem to experience in different ways, none of it being easy.

Quote from: maxsterling on April 14, 2014, 06:40:58 PM

Max, objectively speaking... . Sounds like she recognizes the distance and you moving away and is using her communication to draw you in again. I'm not suggesting this isn't difficult and seeing someone hate on themselves doesn't deserve our empathy but please ask yourself this:

Did you harm her Hamster?

Did you tell her she wasn't caring for her Hamster?

Are you responsible for her preference to think negatively and perceive the world darkly?

Is she really benefitting from therapy if she's unwilling to take responsibility (rather than feeling he is taking sides)?

It sounds like you are still trying to do the impossible. What a great guy. Don't beat yourself up. From what you describe it sounds like you're doing more than all you can just to try and keep a sense of normality and optimism for her. That's her responsibility. She'll never feel truly happy or sustain optimism if you are providing it, it needs to come from within.

Stay strong Max! I'm late for work but my thoughts are with you. Focus on what matters, your needs. See her communication for what it is, she doesn't have to know you know... . Maybe just as long as today you don't internalize her pain for her.

Hi Nick,

Not wanting to hijack Max's thread, my post is the "R/S advice, BPD style" (continued): https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=222715.0

You can go back a few pages if you dare want to start from the beginning.

Mine and Max's situations are very similar... . but that's no real surprise given the circumstances.

I will be updating mine as soon as I post this.

Max, my brother... . you know that I know exactly where you're at and my pain is your pain. At least you're not in some triangulation like I am. Pray it never gets to that! Good for your girl for going to therapy at least. I've seen others post that their pwBPD's feel that the T is against them and taking the side of the other. Mine had 2 sessions with a counselor (?) and she commented the other day that she doesn't think that she's going to get anything out of it so I'm sure she won't go back. I guess the question goes back to what I asked the other day and what is your personal threshold for what and how much you will tolerate and if/will that threshold get exceeded. And if it does, then what? I know that very thought preoccupies your mind continuously and that my friend is a HUGE strain on your energy levels. So be good to yourself; keep getting the exercise and keep the mind as clear as you can. Help your girl as long as she will help herself but if she stops listening or caring, there's only so much you can for her my friend before you totally lose yourself. Peace!

Thanks for the input Nick and I/O, as every little bit certainly helps in days like this.

Yesterday all day I was feeling off -like something shifted. The weekend made me realize this is still the same BPD cycle - blow up at him and give him ultimatums before he does it to me. And my thought was initially to listen, but later to wonder if I can really play that game, and instead focus on the inevitable - that no matter what I do she will be uncomfortable and the r/s will fail - and prepare myself for that. So that's what I was thinking about - and then this self-loathing stuff about the guinea pig and I realized she was really hurting with her self-image to the point I started worrying about her self-harming and contemplating suicide again. I naturally assumed I would be dealing with a very down and disregulated person after work, and prepared myself for that.

After work we had plans to go to a Passover Seder at her Father's house. She has her father painted mostly black, so this also put some fear in me that the evening could be rough. I fully expected an uncomfortable 45-minute car ride to his house. She came to pick me up from work, and surprisingly she was smiling and happy to see me. And the car ride to his house was awesome. And the evening went really well, and we had a good ride home. Afterwards, I noticed there was something wrong with the guinea pig, and we talked about taking it to the vet today.

And the result on me - more confusion. A day spent thinking that I need to detach more and prepare for the end of the relationship, to feeling like things might be life and death again, to feeling like things are still workable and that I should give more effort. This morning? I just don't know. I'll do my best to just enjoy today.

One thing from the car ride to the Seder last night - she was talking about how last summer she had contemplated getting an apartment closer to her job at the time. To be perfectly honest, back then I felt the space would have been good for me, and while I know it would have felt weird and I would miss her, I also saw her living separately as a means of easier detachment and easier to break things off and go NC should it get ugly again. My T was telling me I need to get her to move out. My friends were telling me the same thing. That I need my own space, and she does too. I tried to encourage her and help her look at the positives - that it could bring excitement back to our relationship, that she would have a pool and workout room, and that we could sleep over at each others places and have dates and whatnot. And the thought crossed my mind multiple times that I knew if she moved out, the r/s would not last much longer. And maybe she knew that, too, and that's why she decided to stay. But last night she told me that had she been living there when she got really depressed last summer, she thinks she would have attempted suicide. That's scary. So here I am trying to detach, trying to not feel like her emotions or well being are not my responsibility, and then her basically saying I saved her life. That's a lot of concrete on my shoulders today. It's probably true, too. Thinking about it, I'm quite sure that if I wasn't in the picture she would have attempted suicide again. And I know that's not my responsibility - but that's a hard one to detach from.

An update - potential disregulations loom:

1) I found out I will likely have to travel overnight for work sometime in May. She hasn't spent a night apart from me since last August, and the time before that was over a year ago. A might apart would be good for me. Her? She's already worried about it even though I haven't told her. How do I know? She can barely stand it if I go to the store without her, and she already tells me that she doesn't know what she will do when I have to travel for my job. I don't know if the best approach is to tell her about it now, or wait until I know the exact dates.

2) The guinea pig is sick - has some kind of bump on her back. We will go to the vet this afternoon. If bad news - could lead to bad things.

Boy, I really wish I could get to a place where everyday things aren't a big deal. "I have to go out of town for work." "when?" "May XYZ, for one night." "Okay, be safe, and have a good time. Maybe I will go out with my friends that night."

But it won't be like that. And here I am having to think about how to approach her for what should be a routine thing that is happening more than a month from now. I've learned tools, and some are coming second nature to me - but it's still a lot of work and no guarantees. For those of you who got married and had kids before the FOG got too thick - I can see the urge to keep trying. But since I am not married, I still go back to the question -":)o I want to live like this forever?" I have no strings attached but emotional - I could end it now.

Max,

I didn't have time to post earlier today but thought of your situation throughout the day.

My pondering was that it seemed you were 'happy' in the relationship if you could have a stable and happy partner. This is exactly where I was until I realised, that shouldn't be the goal, that should be the foundation.

I know what you mean about the fear of business trips. My boss would tell me and my true self was excited for the opportunity and then the fear kicked in of "how/when do I break the news?". Sadly the joy of the trip was always muted. Even on any trip I was either working or on FaceTime connection to her so she could see I was behaving (despite having been and demonstrating complete loyalty).

What really caught my attention was when I was back in my home country and speaking to one of my very best friends. He was telling me his wife had said to him "It's been a really tough year for you , why don't you take a flight and hangout with Nick for a boys weekend".

I was amazed. And they have two young children! Here is a woman who recognizes her husbands need for some downtime and willingly offers it to him. Max, wouldn't that be nice?

If you're anything like me, you'd never ask but you'd always patiently hope someone would recognize your needs.

I hope you can convince her to move out Max, it would be a healthy place to establish your boundaries if you want to stay or otherwise a safe distance if you decide to leave.

Tell us more about your needs ? The ones that start with 'wouldn't it be nice if... . '

Nick

Nick, that would be a dream scenario! To actually encourage me to go out and spend an evening with friends, because she knows it would be good for me. There was one instance when she did say, "You should go out with your friends more." A head-scratcher, because when I do she will guilt trip me into staying home or coming home early. Of course, if the situation were reversed and she wanted to spend the day with a friend, I would say "Great! Have fun!" I would feel that way because I love her and I want her to enjoy her life, because I find independence attractive, and because I think it is healthy. Of course I would also be glad for the free time myself. And since she doesn't seem to encourage that from me, it makes me question the basis of her "love" as more of a "need" or "addiction" rather than a genuine want from me to have the best in life.

So, "wouldn't it be nice if... . "

... . I had at least one night out a week, with friends just for a few hours, with her encouragement.

... . I had a partner who didn't make daily negative comments about herself.

... . I had time and money again for my hobbies and interests.

... . I didn't have to sit and constantly ponder about how to gain back the part of myself that I have apparently lost (by making lists like this :) )

BTW, we took the guinea pig to the vet yesterday afternoon. That went well, the guinea pig just has mites. And GF did not freak out, disregulate, or somehow blame me.

... .

Yesterday was couples T, an exhausting and head-scratching session that I could use feedback on. I've been feeling antsy lately and have been thinking it's time to start really bringing stuff up, setting boundaries, and quit protecting her. But then last weekend happened, where she exclaimed the T is always taking my side. That made me pessimistic that she will be less receptive in the session than she was before, and made me feel T is now pointless. And then Monday, the self-loathing that made me worry she may be heading down the suicide thought path again. Tuesday and Wednesday she seemed to be feeling better. So by yesterday, I was living in thick FOG - I want to seriously lay out boundaries and issues so that events of last weekend don't happen again, or so that she at least knows how worn out I am by that constant pressure. But if she's feeling down on herself, I don't want to pick at that wound and have to deal with that suicide threat again. Any talk of the r/s issues tends to send her down that path. And to add more confusion, on the way to the T office, GF was remarking how she hates people and is so irritable.

So, the session went as they usually do - T starts by talking to GF for awhile about GFs moods, upcoming job, etc. I think T is pretty clued into GFs BPD and issues, and is patiently and covertly working with her on that. I get the impression that T knows the R/S can't be healthy unless GF (as well as me) get individual issues resolved. GF was obviously not enthusiastic to talk about this. I then changed the subject to he guinea pig, and how us taking the guinea pig to the vet and getting a new cage made me feel hopeful because it was a current issue that we solved together and worked together at. T agreed, it demonstrated some "parenting" and positive r/s skills.

The conversation moved to my sister in law coming to visit, to which I think we both said went well, and then on to GF meeting my sister. And then my GF said she wanted to talk about something else that didn't have to go with meeting my family. My heart raced. And of course she brought up the whole thing about rings and marriage and her September ultimatum for me. I let her talk, basically her disregulating a little right there in session, with her claiming I am leading her on, claiming she doesn't trust me to commit, claiming I am making excuses. Of course, she used a whole bunch of invalidation, a few curse words, a raised voice, and some sarcasm. I just sat there - extremely sad and just stared off into space while my GF just basically laid out ne no-win situation for me: If I don't propose to her by September, she leaves. If I propose, she will feel like she manipulated me. If I buy an expensive ring for her, she will feel like I spent too much. If I buy a cheap ring, she will feel like I don't value her. No win no matter what I do. I really felt like poop at that moment, with the only "win" I could see would be without her - a breakup. I did say that it's fair for her to set a September BOUNDARY (emphasizing the word boundary) because she is free to pursue her own goals in life. She then said that "I've been talking to my aunt and my aunt says 'why give him to September - I wouldn't give him that long.'" So now I know where this recent pressure is coming from. I've never met this aunt - but right then I wished I could send that aunt a letter that just says F-U. And the money stuff about the ring really hurt - badly. For me it digs at a REAL sore spot. It reminds me of an NPD ex girlfriend who emotionally abused me over issues similar - how I didn't own "nice" things, didn't have a ton of money, was working below my potential, etc. And it reminds me of my childhood - my parents had plenty of money, but were frugal. And we lived in a richer neighborhood where parents gave their kids cars for their 16th birthdays and wore designer clothes, and I was given a hard time by classmates for not having those things, which turned into shame that took awhile to grow out of. I feel like I am living in that again, and now feel shame that I can't provide for my GF, despite that she does nothing for herself or nothing for me and I know that shame is illogical.

T challenged her on this - challenged her to basically be mindful of today. Challenged her that these are her expectations and roadblocks she is creating for herself. Implied that she is creating an impossible situation. GF then countered with a bunch of "I can't help it, this is how I am. I have feelings and emotions and they are valid and can't be turned off." Uggh. This almost sounded like she has been reading too much BPD literature, and now is convinced that she doesn't need to work on herself, she just needs to get others to accept her. It's like she knows that us nons need to work on validating, so now she expects it.

At this point - I just felt trapped in the no-win, and really sad. I made sure to let that known that I was hurt. I said that I felt things were progressing well, I was feeling more secure, and then she went back to the pressure over the marriage thing again. I mentioned that I had just shut the car door after meeting my sister and her first words were "Ok - now I've met your sister, can we get married now?" I told her how much that hurt to hear that, instead of words about being nice to meet my sister or something to say about her. The T kept challenging her that these are things that both of us need to work on, and challenged her to be thankful for what she has today. I then mentioned that I can't let myself live a life where I am not focused on today - that I will get depressed and be in a bad place.

After the session as we were walking out, my GF asked, "are you mad at me?" I said no, that I don't get mad at people. She then said that she "really liked meeting my sister" - to which made me think she doesn't understand why I felt hurt. And then she started crying uncontrollably, saying "I love you, and I'm sorry I'm so damaged."

So - my thoughts after all that:

- I'm glad I was able to articulate that I felt hurt by this marriage pressure. That's a big step for me.

- I'm glad that my GF expressed all that in front of the T so the T can witness directly what is going on.

- This pretty much confirms to me what I was thinking about her not really wanting to work on herself. That she wants "radical acceptance" without having to really act any different. She admits she has BPD and issues, but really just wants acceptance for her issues and doesn't want to own them herself.

- I'm not sure what to make of her crying afterwards. I think she was embarrassed by her behavior, because as we were lying in bed she said "I feel bad - I did a lot of bad things today."

- I'm not sure how I feel or where I go from here. I think I need to try and put my feelings aside and do pros/cons and just keep that to myself for now. We have another session Monday night, and I think we need to discuss the money issue. I'm hurt over that.

Hey Max,

I haven't worked out how to grab your words as quotes but let me respond with my thoughts. Hope it helps.

" it's time to start really bringing stuff up, setting boundaries, and quit protecting her"

I wonder if you see how many times you do 'protect her' in your writings. Have a read through many of your posts. I think you are just trying to be fair and don't want to feel as though you are painting her black.

"I don't want to pick at that wound and have to deal with that suicide threat again. Any talk of the r/s issues tends to send her down that path"

Her inability to handle the conversation without having an extremely imbalanced emotional response is the problem. You should be able to discuss any topic as you need.

"She then said that "I've been talking to my aunt and my aunt says 'why give him to September - I wouldn't give him that long.'" So now I know where this recent pressure is coming from"

Max, here's a good example of you protecting her. Her giving you pressure to propose is her decision, regardless of the Aunt. We can't validate the Aunt is real or is adding pressure BUT let's say she is... . Surely it is your GF's responsibility to respect your needs and communicate these back to her Aunt.

"And the money stuff about the ring really hurt - badly. For me it digs at a REAL sore spot."

Money comes and goes. I know so many couples that when they met don't have a lot of money to spend on their wedding/rings/1st house etc but by the 10th-20th anniversary the guy can really make up for it because he has benefited from the relationship and found career success along the way. A true partner wants you, not the ring. Or at least they want the ring for what it symbolises, not what it costs. One of my previous exGF parents didn't like me because they thought my job wasn't great. About 18 months after I ended that r/s I got a really great job offer; the ex's Mum called me to congratulate me... . the only times I heard from her since we broke up. Your current wealth is just a moment in time; things will change.

"after the session as we were walking out, my GF asked, "are you mad at me?" I said no, that I don't get mad at people"

Max, I feel you missed an opportunity to be more honest here.

"I'm not sure what to make of her crying afterwards"

I'd say you are right, she recognised she treats you poorly and instead of taking responsibility and being willing to discuss it, she had an emotional reaction designed to bring you closer to her.

Keep sharing Max :) Sorry if it feels like I am being unfair to you.

Quote from: NickM on April 17, 2014, 01:52:20 PM

I'd say you are right, she recognised she treats you poorly and instead of taking responsibility and being willing to discuss it, she had an emotional reaction designed to bring you closer to her.

I think *this* is what drives us non's absolutely bat$hit crazy... . just trying to have a *rational* conversation. If the conversation gets too deep or focused on issues at hand that involve them, then they dysregulate and you have to walk on eggshells to try and bring them back to their baseline. Fail at that and they rage or sob or clam up. And without doubt, they begin to throw back on to you: "well you have problems too"... . "well why did you do/say that?"... . "you're trying to hurt me". Etc. And then their little shame/guilt pendulum swings the other way and it's "I'm a failure"... . "I'm broken"... . "Everybody hates me" and now you're trying to ease their guilt trip so that they don't go make some very poor and unhealthy decisions while being emotionally dysregulated. You get frustrated and then something slips out that invalidates them and the crap hits the fan. I let slip out once "you're helpless". Oh lordy, that now comes up every time. I'm most cruelist, meanest man on Earth for dare saying she's "helpless". That is like painting a "666" on her forehead.

But when they're calm and you're doing something that *they* like to do (it's never what you want to do)... . then they can be giddy and bonding and just wonderful to be around. We went and took pictures in the flowers. Ok, that's fine with me. Put on a pretty dress and I'll take your picture. My ex was singing in the car (I have it on video), smiling, happy and it was a wonderful day. I'm blocked on her facebook but she sends a screenshot of a picture of her that I took and all of the comments below it (including my replacements) and she's telling me how she's "looking back at the one that I love". Meanwhile, her facebook world thinks that her girlfriend took the picture. That brings up a discussion and within minutes, I'm walking on eggshells and trying to avoid being overly defensive about my needs and concerns. It's like dating a 12 year old little girl emotionally.

We should organize a "non's" cruise or something and just sit and swap "war" stories for a week. That would probably be the most therapeutic thing ever. Their "fragile little eggshell minds"... . that's all that I can keep thinking right now.

Nick - that's all great advice, thanks. I agree - I can go for a walk or bike ride and just start thinking of how convoluted things have become and how many ways I try to "protect" her without noticing it. Your comment about missing the opportunity when she asked if I was mad is a perfect example. I do this all the time, recognize I do this all the time, but still do it. The truth is - I'm not mad. But she understands what "mad" means, and by *her* definition, I am mad (but to me I am just sad and frustrated and confused - to me mad means I have emotions that make me want to retaliate - and I rarely feel that way). So maybe I should just say, "yes, I am mad," and see where that goes.

I/O - LOL about the cruise. There really should be "support groups" in the community for people who deal with pwBPD. I go to Alanon/Naranon meetings, and it's pretty clear that a large percentage of addicts have BPD or BPD-like behaviors. So that's been a good place to trade "war stories". Your description of how an attempt at a "rational" conversation with a pwBPD goes is pretty spot on. And the "helpless" thing - oh brother! She calls herself that - Helpless, Worthless. But if someone else calls her that? LOOK OUT. The first rage I experienced with her was when I tried to say her constant negative attitude was depressing me. That began a two-day rage that ended with the police being called. And the same thing here - she complains that I never want to talk about marriage. And a good reason why is because every time we have, she deregulates. And what happened last weekend? I wanted her opinion on a style of ring I had been looking at - and she then OBSESSED for a week, then disregulated. Make me not want to bring it up again. So if I don't talk about marriage - she's mad. If I do - she obsesses until she's mad.

I like this T, though. Oh, and regarding the aunt - yeah it's my GF's responsibility to handle that. But I can see why she doesn't - she has BPD which means she has a weak identity, so she leans on the opinion of whoever she is currently identifying with, and that is the person who is currently validating her. She claims every time she talks to the aunt, the aunt asks her if I have proposed yet. She identifies with this Aunt because the aunt had a wild childhood as well. She really needs to have better boundaries with the aunt. Before the aunt, she identified with her friend (who is now painted black). The friend is a single mother. So what did GF want to talk about? Yep. before she met me, she was considering getting artificially inseminated so that she could be a single mother, too, and not have to deal with a r/s. She said this friend was the only person who encouraged her in this.

Today is another mind-bender. She starts a new job a week from this upcoming Monday. She has some disability money, so she is not completely broke. If I was in that position, I would look at it as one more week of freedom knowing a paycheck would be coming soon. I'd use my time to relax, shop, hobbies, go for walks or hikes or whatever. But not her. Yesterday she sat at home and watched TV and kept texting about how excruciating it was. She said she felt like she was dying or rotting. I just can't relate. She can do whatever she wants - read, artwork, exercise, go out for lunch, clean, bake, whatever. Yet she sat at home, and then complained that sitting at home was making her depressed. She complained about wanting to turn her brain off. She said she knows she should do this or that but she is a failure for not doing anything.

I just can't relate, don't know how to respond, don't know how to encourage, yet am tired from hearing this. I try to detach. Last night as we laid in bed, she hugged me and begged me never to leave her and wanted me to promise I will never leave her. And remember just last Sunday she was telling me she would have to break it off because I had not proposed to her. "I hate you; don't leave" - BPD at its rawest.

This morning she told me she had to be up for a Dr. appointment. She sat as I drank my coffee, saying she has nothing to do all day and she is worried about spending the day alone with nothing to do. She said, "If this goes on I will get sick again (sick meaning suicidal)" and "I feel like blowing my brains out." Oh dear. Normally, I do not want to give her chores or tasks - but after hearing that I asked, "would you like me to give you things to do for me?" She didn't know, and we joked about it a little bit, about me "punishing" her if she didn't get her chores done.

As I sat down at my work desk, she was already sending me messages "I really don't know how I will get through the day" "I feel like my brain is going to explode". Stuck in my mind was worry about the comments she said earlier. So, I asked if she would like to come have lunch with me. She agreed. But then she said a friend called her and asked her to hang out today. So, she is now out with a friend - and that's a very, very good thing.

This weekend a friend of mine who moved away is back in town. This is not a good friend, and probably not someone my GF would like to meet, but I'd like to at least stop by and say hi to her for an hour. There's a party tonight at another friend's house. I'd like to use this as an opportunity to test my assertiveness in doing something that I want to do, but after the "blowing my brains out" and "I don't want to be alone" language, perhaps it best to meet up with the friend at another time (such as tomorrow morning while GF is at an AA meeting).

Well, this weekend was rough, but nothing new. Rough because I feel like I have an endless list of things to do in an addition to simply relaxing and having some time for myself, and yet getting very little done and having no down time. Friday began with her realizing the plans she had for Friday night weren't actually until the following week. Darn. And her Saturday morning plans were also cancelled, darn. I was counting on those two hours for some alone time.

Friday after work she was extra needy. She had a depressing day shopping. And it wasn't just "needy", it was the "I hate myself and want to blow my brains out" talk again. Oh, and hitting herself in the forehead. So, rather than go visit a friend, I stayed home. Saturday was more of the same. Lots of self-loathing talk and minor disregulations about money. Lots of "I hate this, I hate that." Sunday we did go out for a picnic, and had a decent time, but still laced with the same self-loathing comments: "I don't understand why you want to be with me." "I am a terrible person" "I can't shut my brain off". On top of that, I got roundabout indications that she was obsessing about marriage and money again: ":)o you know what higher paying job you want within your agency?" ":)o you know how much your brother's wedding cost?" "With such a large family, would you want to invite all of them if we got married?"

I'm starting to realize that her "obsessing" is just a disregulation in disguise. It's preventing her from being functional and rational in the same way her screaming arguments are. It's just that she has learned the screaming is going to get her nowhere. The obsession over marriage and money is letting raw, irrational emotions control her moods. And it just makes me feel on edge and uncomfortable. I'm okay with dealing with this occasionally, but her obsessing over money every day causes me to worry - I try everything I can to detach, but it's difficult.

And I'd like to try a couple hours timeout and refresh - but her self harm type talk makes me hesitate. Ultimately, I know I will have to do that and express how much her obsessing is wearing me out. But it's not like she can change. She talks like she wants to keep busy in other ways so as to not obsess. But nothing works.

So how am I doing? Thankful to be at work today, even though I am completely unproductive.

Now I am dealing with "will she or won't she" take the job. Not that it matters to me, I just want her to be happy. She is supposed to start Monday. The HR department contacted her yesterday, asked for more info from her on a previous job. This is part of the background check. And of course, my GF really doesn't have the info, because it was an overseas job. So, according to my GF, there is a chance she won't be allowed to work this job. And she's decided she's already been rubbed the wrong way by this place, so she is considering just backing out. I tried to validate her and let her know she has the freedom to do that.

Last night was couples T, and the first thing the T asked was "what have you two been doing that wasn't focused on the future?" Aha! I didn't even have to bring it up - the T is already recognizing this is a big issue. T spent most of the hour discussing with my GF the pros and cons of taking this job. That's okay by me - because having a T talk to my GF about this means 1) I don't have to; 2) I can observe how the T interacts with GF, and that helps me when I have to deal with volatile situations in the future; 3) the T obviously is recognizing that if GF doesn't solve her issues, then relationship issues don't matter. By the end of the session, GF had pretty much decided to not take the job, and that she had deeper issues than just the HR headaches. GF brought up past jobs, how preparing her job history over the past 10 years brought up a lot of pain of having so many jobs where she only lasted a few weeks, how she feels like a failure for getting paid less at this job than the last ones, for not using her master's degree... . And she brought up how this issue has soured her mood and made her difficult to live with. Yet, still no apology to me - not that I really expect one, but it would help.

But, she also created a "no-win" situation for herself - that she feels "terror" about money now, that she won't be able to enjoy the job because she will always feel underpaid, yet if she refuses the job she will still worry about money. So, either way, she worries about money, and that is going to prevent her from emotionally moving forward.

When we got back in the car, GF said she felt so sure about not taking the job while in session, but now she got outside feels so unsure again. And that kinda spoiled the rest of the evening for her, as she could not stop thinking about it.

Similar happened to me, too. While in session, just listening to GF talk about things with the T made me feel hopeful and very much in love with this woman and at peace with the progress both she and I have made. But, as I laid in bed, all I could thing about is how really nothing has changed, and this r/s is still too much work, and I still worry about her reactions too much.

GreyKitty - that's a good way to think about it. And I think you are right - much of the change may have to do with me and my reactions. As an example, my GF was telling me the other day she was having a conversation with her aunt*, and the aunt asked my GF if she and I ever get into fights or arguments. My GF said, "not that much anymore. Actually, I get mad at him and he just listens and doesn't argue back, and then I feel silly and ashamed for starting an argument." To that the aunt said, "wow, that sounds like the way I am with my husband, too."

Obviously, I am using the tools correctly sometimes, and it has cut out some of the more heated conflict. I still JADE at times, especially when she is really on the attack or I feel she is going into a self-harm mode. I'm impressed with myself of how I handled the situation with my SIL being late the other day "I understand why you are frustrated, it's frustrating when people are late. But I have no control over her schedule, and I can't let something like this alter what I want to do. I am going to cook dinner anyway, and if she is late or doesn't show up, that's her issue if we have already eaten." And then I continued cooking dinner, and just let my GF rant for a bit.

*this is the same aunt who whenever she talks to my GF will make comments about the r/s, ask if I have proposed, telling my GF that I won't propose unless she gets a job, etc. I've never met this woman, but from what I know, it sounds like she may have a PD as well.

Ya, the aunt sounds like somewhere between a bad influence and a toxic influence. Just be glad she isn't more involved your life directly

Quote from: maxsterling on April 24, 2014, 01:01:58 PM

Obviously, I am using the tools correctly sometimes, and it has cut out some of the more heated conflict. I still JADE at times, especially when she is really on the attack or I feel she is going into a self-harm mode.

Yeah, we all JADE at times. We also notice it and stop earlier, sometimes even before we start. It will get better with practice... . and this is a wonderful life skill to work on--JADEing doesn't work well with anybody, it just fails more spectacularly with a pwBPD. It is a process, you are learning and improving at it. Keep on working on it!

I hated the self-harm thing too. I would draw a distinction between self-harm and suicidal thoughts. Self-harm isn't actually an attempt at suicide or even necessarily a step in that direction. It is !@#$!@# hard to watch, and I've had some boundaries regarding how much of it I will watch. I've held her down to stop her from hitting herself (I know, this has its own problems). I've told her that if she doesn't stop I'll call 911, with my phone in my hand, ready to press send and meaning it 100%. It is just tough to deal with. (Note: If she is self-aware about it, I've heard the recommendation of squeezing ice cubes in your hand, HARD. It does hurt, so it meets the "need" to feel self-harm, but does no permanent damage, unlike most other versions of self-injury)

In the case of true suicidal thoughts, that is a good reason to call for help--911 if nothing else is possible, but there are local or national suicide hotlines which can provide excellent assistance, and isn't a provocative/drastic an option. Absolutely take any expressions about suicide seriously. These workshops are helpful.

Depression and Suicidal Ideation (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=69192.0)

TOOLS: Dealing with threats of Suicide and Suicide Attempts (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=79032.0)

Excerpt

I'm impressed with myself of how I handled the situation with my SIL being late the other day "I understand why you are frustrated, it's frustrating when people are late. But I have no control over her schedule, and I can't let something like this alter what I want to do. I am going to cook dinner anyway, and if she is late or doesn't show up, that's her issue if we have already eaten." And then I continued cooking dinner, and just let my GF rant for a bit.

|iiii Agreed--that sounds like a fantastic job of dealing with a difficult situation!

Meanwhile... . you didn't answer my last question--What you can do to take care of yourself better? <prod> <prod>

Today she officially turned down the job that was to begin Monday. I had a feeling if she started working she would burn out in a few weeks. That's what always happens (and she even admits to this). So, I don't have any issue with her refusing the job. But, she showed me the email she was going to send to the HR department - and basically it was "Sorry, I refuse the job, but blame you for that." I told her she does not owe this place any explanation, and should just keep it short, "sorry, I have chosen to take a different path with my life. Thanks for the offer." She asked why not explain why she is refusing, and I said, "it's not important, plus it opens up the opportunity for them to argue back at you." I hope she toned it down. But she did reply to me and said something to the affect of, "I guess I also realized there were other issues with me, too." In other words, maybe she realized that it's not fair to blame them when really it was her own insecurity and anxiety why she refused.

The frustrating thing is she has working tied up with marriage and with being happy. I view life that none of the other things can happen (or are even important) if one is not happy first. So yesterday after she decided to refuse this job, she spent the rest of the day online applying for more jobs. I know, makes no sense to decide you aren't ready to handle the stress of working and refuse a job you have only to start frantically looking for another job. But that fits in the same line as wanting to trade in the car she has that she claims she can't afford for a newer car with almost twice the monthly payment.

And after she refused the job, she sent me depressing messages, saying she hasn't left the house all day, that she is depressed every day, asking me when it will get better. She said she is going to an AA meeting - that leaves an hour just for me. That's good. I'm sure I will spend some of that time cooking dinner for the both of us.

I/O, completely agree. That was the biggest plus I saw of her taking this job, or well ANY job. When we sat in the T office last with with my GF saying how she doesn't feel like she can work, T started pressing her on what else she would do with her time. T actually asked "What do you *want* to do with your life?" That was (of course) a stumper. Through talking GF and T decided that taking a class to regain her teacher certification would be good, as would additional therapies or volunteer work. I'd *love* to see her have a hobby, or even just good friends she spends time with.

Exercise? None. Every T she goes to tells her to get out, get exercise. She says she is not motivated. She will go for walks if I go, and she wants me to force her (so she can put the blame on me for her lack of exercise). We've gone on very short hikes the past two sundays, but previous attempts at hiking I will turn around after she starts complains of her aches and pains after 15 minutes. Bike rides - impossible. She has a back injury from childhood abuse that makes sitting on a bike seat pretty painful. I would be up for getting her started with something by going along with her the first few times - but it solves nothing unless she starts doing something on her own. That's my biggest issue is her being dependent on me for everything, so me exercising with her I fear would just be enabling that dependent/mirroring behavior.

Last night I was putting away dishes after dinner. She told me to stop, that she should do it because she did nothing all day and should have done it during the day. Then she said "I wished you would tell me to do the dishes, why won't you tell me to do things? It may help." I replied simply, "because you are an adult." She said she felt a little hurt by that comment. I can see how, but I think in the long run it will be good for her to hear that.

SC - yeah, that's a pretty good summary. From my end, I feel like I get tense and pressured when she starts projecting to the future. If she could just stay in the present for awhile, I feel better about things, and am happier. But she is NEVER in the present, at least lately. The feeling I can describe is a panic - heart racing, thoughts racing, feeling like I just want to escape. Yesterday, she started off about money again, how she is always broke, will run out of money, how she hates living hand to mouth (I never lived like that before she moved in), how we will never have enough money to get married. I put a stop to it. I said "Please trust me. We will be okay." And she started up again. I replied back "I need you to trust me, and do your best about worrying about things that need to be done today." And she said, "okay, I will try."

I think that is the approach I will use. "I know sometimes it is important to plan for the future. There will be other times to talk about those things. But I need you to focus on what needs to get done today. It would help me out immensely." The "I need" is important, I think.

Last night we went to a religious service and I finally met her AA sponsor. I thought it was a very constructive evening. Of course, we hadn't even closed the car door before she had something negative to say about the service. I said that i liked it and felt inspired and moved. We went to dinner afterwards with her AA sponsor, and at one point while my GF went to the restroom, the sponsor and other women there remarked how much they loved my GF. I said, "yes, she is awesome, and I wished she would know how awesome she is." The sponsor agreed, and said that we need to work with her on that. I think the sponsor saw the exhaustion on my face, and said that if I ever get burnt out i should call her.

This morning I have a couple of free hours. Not nearly enough, but it helps. I fear the normal weekend disregulation coming on.

Max,

No doubt you are a hard worker and a stable provider. You get the job done to ensure things will be okay and she can trust you for that as you have said.

But... .

Didn't she just turn down a job?

It doesn't sound like you're raising concerns into your relationship about financial stability. I wouldn't be surprised if you had those concerns but understand that that's not the biggest problem you need to resolve right now.

If it was, thinking about your shared resources, if money is really the only problem in your relationship... . Who is making the effort here to resolve this problem? Is there a fair balance?

From what we have read, she doesn't seem to be providing much financial support and more than this she is waiting for your direction to ask her to do things around the house. I faced similar things before and I would always imagine I was the party that was out of work and at home... . I'd spend my day ensuring the other party came home to a nice meal and a clean house and every once in a while a little treat for all the effort they are putting in to keep us afloat. Isn't this what you want?

The one thing I realised about my BPD relationship was I found it extremely difficult to relate to the attitudes and behaviours which not only made the actions difficult to tolerate over time but made me feel distant from my exBPD.

I agree with the previous commenter and we have mentioned it before; what do you want in a relationship? How does it feel? What can you bring to it and and what do you get from it?

Hope your weekend is okay Max.

Quote from: Grey Kitty on April 26, 2014, 10:00:05 PM

One refinement I would suggest is to shift more to your own direct feelings and needs, and less about what you want her to do.

"I need to focus on X, Y, and Z today. I can't deal with the future right now."

Where you said "I need you to focus on... . " that could come off as controlling or invalidating, and pwBPD are often oversensitive to that sort of thing.

Good thought. The problem is, if I say it like you mentioned, the response I fear (and have gotten) is "See! you don't even care about our relationship! It's all about what you and what you want!" She's always asking me what I want her to do, so I think I am going to try a different approach. The "focus on me" approach is good for me, but it leaves her really anxious. An example would be her asking me on Saturday morning, "what are we going to do today?" And my response, "I don't know, but I have xy and z to do this weekend." And she responds sadly, "oh. You don't want to spend time with me. I'm so lonely and have nothing to do. I hate myself, I'm such a loser." She seems to be in a better mood if I ask her to do things for me. I don't like that role, but somehow I think I need to put it on her directly that I need her to change her behavior in order to have a functional r/s. She really has no clue in this regard, and unless I bring something up, she either thinks things are fine, or thinks that I am hiding things from her.

Nick - those are all excellent points, and that is what is constantly running through my head. My needs aren't getting met. I'm still deciding what my needs are and whether I think they could be met in this r/s. As for the financial stability thing - you are exactly right. I'm the only person with an income. And she may see it another way, but objectively speaking I am the only one working towards financial stability. I had it before I met her. And you are also exactly right in that it seems like a secondary issue right now. I can keep on the current path for awhile as long as she can accept the current reality. First and foremost my issue is her extreme depression. I really think she is teetering on the edge of suicide ideation right now. She's desperately hurting. I'm also realizing she is pretty much constantly disregulating now, even though it's not outwardly directed at me. She describes her day as constant racing thoughts and an inability to focus on today. The thoughts and emotions are out of control. It's pretty obvious that I can't have a meaningful discussion about finances or household duties with her feeling so unstable. I've tried. And the most success I have had seems to be to simply say "trust me". If I start to Explain with numbers, that seems to make her more confused (seems to be like a JADE process because I can't explain things in a way that will calm her down).

This weekend was interesting, and rough. I'll post more when I have the energy.

Good advice, I/o. I've got the book on order :) I need to write out all the weird things that happened this weekend, but fist was an instance where I thing the "radical acceptance" thing may have backfired. All weekend she seemed to sense something was wrong with me. So she brought it up, "I know you are mad at me and just not telling me!" Not true. Sure, I was feeling down, about all kinds of things (her being one of them), but not mad. I saw it as my thing to deal with and nothing that she could change or do differently except give me space. But I have been down that "you are mad at me, I know it" accusation many times before. Now I mostly shrug it off.

At one point she was telling me something about a friend of hers. This friend happens to be an ex. No, I am not completely comfortable with that arrangement, but he isn't a good friend and he doesn't live near here, so I don't have to see him or know him. But I also know that she needs to be free to choose her own friends and boundaries in relationships, because I need that same freedom. If I have a jealousy issue, that's my issue. But I don't think it is jealousy. I think my issue is more of the double standard, that if the situation were reversed, she would be furious. Also is that I know she has told me about an incident or two in that relationship where she raged at him and he enforced a boundary, and she still feels hurt by that. So, I think for me my uncomfortable feeling is not really jealousy or feeling threatened, but that this just illustrates that our relationship is unbalance or unhealthy.

During the conversation the other night, she stopped herself, said she shouldn't be talking about him. Then she asked if I wanted her to quit talking to him. I told her she can be friends with whoever she wants to be friends with. She then said, "yeah, but it may be inappropriate, but I don't know." I replied, "what would concern me is if there is a double standard here, because I don't think that is good for a relationship." She then said that if the situation were reversed, she would be extremely jealous and angry, but may be more okay with it if my ex lived out of state. Then she remarked about how she should talk to her AA sponsor about this.

I'm glad I was able to converse and communicate with her over this without a complete breakdown (although it may have contributed to the next day's disregulation).

In possibly a related conversation, she was telling me last night about a friend who is getting divorced and has a crush on some guy. My GF was telling me this as an illustration of how close she and this woman are getting, almost as "look at me, I have a close friend now! we are talking about her live life!" My GF told me how she advised her friend to just go out and sleep with some guy to get it over with, but to chose a more stable guy than the guy she has a crush on. I don't know why this bothered me. I told my GF that it may be better for her friend to get her own house in order first, because she may wind up hurting someone else by only wanting sex while her partner was hoping for more. I guess it bothers me because my GF has complained of men doing that to her before, yet doesn't make the connection here, and is advising her friend to do exactly what men have done to her and left her feeling hurt.

Frustrating, but I think underlying all of this was just a busy weekend and really needing time to myself to think.

Max,

I still think you need to front up to your side of this relationship.

Yes, she is the one causing the drama. Yes, she is unstable and unreasonable.

BUT... .

You've let this go on and on. You support this behaviour, even though you wish you didn't have to.

Her: "Are you mad at me?"

Max: "I wouldn't say that I feel mad, however I do feel exhausted in this relationship at times. I don't feel as though my needs are always important in this relationship. It doesn't make me mad though, but thankyou for noticing that I seemed a little different."

If you can't have a mature and honest conversation then where are you heading with this r/s?

I agree with SC, if you love her and want the best for her maybe that now the best for her is to find a new caretaker (father, friend). You can warn whoever that is that you are contemplating ending the relationship and she will need their support and that you worry she might commit suicide etc. So long as she has you then I see no reason for her to change her ways. If you think back over the course of your r/a and plotted her 'happiness' on a trend graph... . I wonder what slope you'd see. You can't blame yourself or external factors. She has to do the work and nothing you can do until that time will ever result in a change of her behaviour. At least that's my feeling.

Max, I want you to try and balance your posts to 50/50. 50% of what she is doing to upset you etc and 50% about what you did or should have done to protect that boundary?

Is this something you're willing to try? I want to really understand what boundary does she cross (yours), how she did it (her behaviour) and ultimately how you dealt with it (you). If you follow this we should be hearing more about Max and less about her. It's Max we want to help right now.

Sincere good wishes to you Max. Sorry if I seem a little harsh on you today.

Thanks for the replies, everyone. I know I have mentioned her dad before. She's seen him once in 6 months, and only because I agreed to go with her. I wished he would step in and help. But, he's actually the reason she moved in with me in the first place. Well, it's not him, but the dynamic between him and his daughter. My impression of him is that he is exhausted, and tired of dealing with an unstable daughter for 20 years. So he's put up his boundaries, and refused to help her. Actually, I'm not sure if he has refused, she has refused to ask clearly, or he has tried to help but she was unable to abide by boundaries, or what. So if I was to tell her that I can't live with her anymore, she wouldn't go to him, because he wouldn't take her in, and she wouldn't ask out of a rejection fear. I'm 99.9% certain of that. She has a friend in another state a few thousand miles away that has taken her in before when her dad wouldn't help. And an aunt and uncle who may take her in for awhile, but they are also out of state and a few thousand miles away. In the past (especially when she was in the hospital) I thought about reaching out to one of them to let them know things weren't good with her living with me, to try and see what else we could do.

As for me protecting boundaries and taking care of my half of the relationship, and not enabling her behaviors - I've been doing better at that, but know I need to do much more work in this area. Telling her that I am not going to worry about or fix things I can't control. Being less protective of her. Telling her to focus on today and that I can't deal with all the future projection. And that all goes well and I start feeling better and more confident - and then the suicide ideation again. Something about the really negative self talk completely changes my thought process and I go into this automatic "protection" mode. I guess that's similar to what a pwBPD would get into - overwhelmed by a stimulus and long-term logic no longer applies. It's like if you saw a car crash and ran to drag a person out of a burning car, not caring that the car may blow up at any second.

And suicide ideation is what I have been dealing with the last two weeks. She's told me twice in the past week or two that had she moved out last summer she would have killed herself. She's constantly telling me she hates herself, her life, her body, that she is a loser, and wants to blow her brains out. Last night she got on the marriage topic again, which normally would have been a good time for me to try and test my skills regarding boundaries and wants and needs, but interlaced with the marriage talk was her saying she sees no reason to live anymore. Simple manipulation or serious? Probably some of both. So instead, I probably made the problem worse by instinctively and without clear thinking doing/saying whatever it took to make her feel hopeful about herself and break her mind from her obsessive thoughts. When she is talking about some other issue, it's easier for me to use SET and try and step away from the conversation, but so hard to do that when her talking about harming herself is the subject. So once again it feel like I am putting me aside. The conversation I think I need to have now is about whether or not I can trust her to go to the hospital again if she is feeling suicidal. She's told me before that I should trust her on this, but I think it needs to be brought up again, and for me to let her know that now I am extremely worried.

As I mentioned - with the other stuff I am doing better at regarding boundaries. But when it comes to this extreme self loathing and suicidal talk, it's like everything just falls away. I think I probably need to step away from posting about my r/s for awhile, and spend time just thinking about it on my own, or working with my T or our couples T.

Nick - I'm hanging in there. I got the "loving someone... . " book and have been reading it. Good stuff, but sobering. Last week was particularly bad. She was blowing up my phone with text messages while I was at work about how lonely she felt, how worthless, how she felt like she was rotting, how ugly she felt, how she wished someone would shoot her in the face, how she saw no reason to live anymore. I tried to just ignore them and not respond immediately, validate when appropriate, and remind myself this is all just part of the BPD. But then I noticed she was starting to isolate - cancel plans with friends, not respond to friends' calls, etc. And I am told that seriously suicidal people will do that. One day last week she sounded so bad that I came home from work at lunch time because I was scared. Of course, when I got home she said "I feel bad that you came home, you shouldn't have done that." Uggh. Complete invalidation of my emotions, and notice once again it's made to be about her - that *she* feels bad, not that she is sorry for worrying me. Anyway, I don't second guess coming home. She was bad. The next day, her AA sponsor suggested she check herself back into the hospital, and I asked her what she thought about that. My GF replied that she feels worthless and hopeless and things the hospital will make her feel more worthless. I agreed, and told her that in my opinion she would do better with an intensive outpatient program (DBT). I told her that I trust her to do what is best for her.

And after that - Friday and through the weekend, she was more social than I have seen her in almost a year. Every day she was with someone, and I got some time for me. I'm glad and relieved to see it, but the complete flip has me exhausted and confused. I wonder if it was just someone else putting the thought of hospitalization in her head that made her realize she needs to help herself. So is she still feeling quite low and self-destructive now and just masking that for me and others? Or was she really not feeling suicidal before (all just manipulation/venting), and when she was called out on it decided to change her tune?

Couples T is today, and I really need to stress in front of the T how exhausted last weeks events made me, and how I feel like I can't take much more of that. I really can't Just be honest about how exhausted I feel. After a period of this heightened worry, I tend to slip into a "recovery" phase where I just feel down and confused, while she will act like it's no big deal. And each time this happens, my recovery time is longer. Next week we are scheduled to take a little camping trip for a week. I've got my fingers crossed for a great time, but if it doesn't go great - I just don't know anymore.

BPDFamily.com

Relationship Partner with BPD (Straight and LGBT+) => Romantic Relationship | Conflicted About Continuing, Divorcing/Custody, Co-parenting => Topic started by: maxsterling on April 08, 2014, 06:58:36 PM