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My wife is completely spinning out.  She is talking about how financially we are going nowhere, how it is my fault she got the degree she did which she cannot get a job now.  She is talking about how I do not stand up for her, how I do not love her.

I do not know what to do.

I do not know if I should set examples of how I do care.  How it was not in my best interest to fly her back from Europe on a $2500 flight because she had a fight with her parents who we are eating Easter with while she refuses to eat Easter with my mother for not saying thank you the same day for a gift, which was rude

She says I should tell my mother she was rude who I work for.  to me I think its better just to chalk it up to rudeness and just not interact with her much.  Which is what we do

Should I tell my wife that she should have made the choices and looked at degree path ahead of time.  That I cannot tell her what to do with her life.

That 5 years ago when she chose this career path we were spending one third what we are today on expenses which are primarily ones she chose to make.  My income had doubled.  She says I have no future, but I have a job and I am in the 95th percentile of incomes...  

I do not know what to do. I want to be fair and stand up for her.  I have sacrificed so much for her but she does not see it.  She does not feel it.  Is it possible to point out anything while she is dysregulated?  or will it just be exacerbating things?

I think she is about to leave me at any moment...   I am ruined, but she does not see it.  She sees it as herself ruined only.  Not as us

You asked: Is it possible to point out anything while she is dysregulated?  or will it just be exacerbating things?


I am not an expert on BPD but from what I have been reading on here, this would be a 'stop the bleeding' situation, and no real conversation will happen while she is in this state of mind.  There is no logic or rationale that will reach her. 

Couldn't read your plea for support and not offer you some. 

HH:

Consider setting a small boundary for yourself.  Pick something to do for yourself .  Something small. 

I started taking walks at night by myself, in the neighborhood.  I had a flashlight, my cell, and house keys.  I did not invite her.  Also, someone had to be home for the kids.  I see as I get all wrapped up in trying to reason with her during one of her dysregulation cycles, all you get is agida.

In my experience it is not advisable to point out anything while a BPD is dysregulated; they can turn on you like a mad dog. What they want is for you to validate every single word they say, no matter how delusional their crazy talk is. 

Sad situation when you are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Self care is very important right now so take good care of you!

Hi hurthusband

I am with others here, you cannot reach her when she is completely dysregulated.

Very good plan about picking a small routine for yourself.

As for the financial problems: Thats her take on it and it will be never enough, no matter what you are going to do.

I think the overriding problem is

a. she has no purpose in life.  She is very ambitious.  She just graduated college with an art degree and is looking around noticing that its hard as hit to get a job with it.  Especially if you do not work well with others which goes for any job.  She has a cleaning business, but her body is wearing down from it and it is not mentally satisfying.  I remember when I graduated college and something happened that destroyed what I thought I had planned for 10 years.  Took me a year to find a new purpose and was scary.  For somebody at 33 with BPD, I can only imagine.  Especially when she sees me working as much as I do, and debt piling up regardless with two teenagers. 

b. she is completely isolated. Her family are a bunch of BPDs and more.  I mean her mom and sister are BPD, her grandmother is BPD, her 2nd cousin murdered her two children when she found out her husband cheated on her with a 14 year old high school student of his.  Mental illness is rampant.  They invade and cause problems for us and show no love, no hugging, no concern for her at all.  My parents are more overbearing.  They want to help anyway and offer advice, and hug, etc.  She does not get that because she did not have that.  She has one friend who has her own issues.  So she has no identity for herself or life for herself.  Nobody to talk to.  Stuck in a house she started to remodel then went waaaaaaay overboard and now we financially stuck with the spot its at.

It all triggered at her BFA show... her final exhibition about a year ago.  A month of hell proceeded unlike anything I had seen, and I had gone through suicide attempts, her drug addiction, her alcoholism, her cheating, her doing some pretty crazy things... this was the worst.  24/7 dysregulation.  At the end of the month, it seemed divorce was inevitable.  We didnt say it, but I was thinking it.  She finds out she is pregnant naturally.  We talked and went abortion route and the doctor who did it went bezerk through it and the whole thing traumatized her.  She feels inadequate now over it... things as a result of that escalated.  Physical abuse started in... talks of suicide pacts... all sorts of things.  She has no peace.  It almost seems to me to the point its not BPD but a demonic possession... the torment she feels is unbearable.  Obviously it is then taken out on me...

With no time that she is not dysregulated... I just do not know.  DBT actually making things worse too.  Helped for a bit, but now the therapy is making her think different things that are my fault or who knows...

There is no time for things for myself anymore.  work is 6 days a week to make ends meet, and that upsets her, but i do  not work and we cannot so that upsets her. 

I ultimately feel until she feels purpose nothing can change.  She asks me what to do... what she should do with her life.  She says I have no plan for us, and that I am not changing or moving up.  I do not know how much further I can move up... I am making 6 figures which isnt bad for a single person.  I cannot promise the future with any job.  I certainly cannot tell her what to do with her life.  I cannot tell somebody what will make them happy.  If it goes wrong, then its my fault!  She was an english major and wanted to do art against her parents wishes.  I encouraged her to do what she wants, but now with job prospects its my fault for encouraging her into it...

I just do not have the answers and I cannot fix this so when do you talk to them about the reality of things?  If they are always dysregulated, you just are silent but then nothing is accomplished

I agree with a and b, hurthusband.

And I can see a c, this is more on your side. You are doing everything for the financial side. If she needs more, she has to find a way to participate. Period.

Sometimes actions speaks louder than words. Or only short words. No, we cannot afford this.

The weird part is her rationale of

"we cannot afford the life I want, and I do not like this so I am going to leave"

okay... so how does that help her any when she has no job, nor income?

It only puts her in a worse situation.  Nevermind that financially, I would be better off without her!

She never takes into consideration that I do care and that I am the one who is really burdened here.  She talks about how much she sacrifices and how hard life is now, never thinking that I am certainly giving up more because I care... . (or am mentally sick too)

You are constantly beating yourself up and thinking that money would fix things.  let's say you covered things with money, you gave yourselves a wonderful life.  Don't you think she would still complain, not want you to do things you enjoy, complain about her relatives, your relatives, etc?

Your reactions are to try to use logic to talk her out of her feelings.  We have all done it, but she has an illness and it's a losing battle.

Sometimes, the less you say, the less you regret, the less trouble you get into.  You're in a no win situation.  She has a therapist for her BPD.  SHE IS THE ONE who is sick.  Not you. 

You know by now that you can not fix her. She is manipulating you into believing that you are responsible for her life. BPD/NPD people never take responsibility for their own behaviors.

This may sound wrong, but consider yourself lucky if she leaves you. It will cost you a pretty penny (divorce from an BPD is a nightmare to go through) but you simply can not put a price on your future peace and happiness.

Everyone has to draw the line somewhere when it comes to dealing with a loved one's mental illness 24/7.  My divorce cost me everything, but I would do it again to gain my freedom from dealing with that much insanity.

My guess is that its not so rationale. She is unhappy with herself and with you and money is something to complain about. Should you have that money that she is missing it would be something else.

I am not sure how you are, Hurthusband, I am quite rational thinking and I was assuming that my h was similar in his thinking patterns. It took me quite a long time to realize that its perhaps different, that there is fear and projection in his words and that it leads to nowhere if I take all his talking with a rational mind.

One helpful resource for me: Ten forms of twisted thinking - Dr. David Burns (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56199.0)

Did you have any kids to deal with in the divorce?

Mine threatens it all the time.  I think I am providing some stability to the family (kids).  Otherwise I would leave and not look back.

Thank heavens our kids were grown up and gone when I finally saved myself.

If I knew then what I know now, I would have taken the kids and left when they were young. Unfortunately I was too co-dependent to realize what affect it would have on their adult lives from growing up with a parent who acted dysregulated so often.  What a mess.

I'm no expert on the "leaving" board or the laws in my state... . but I believe I know enough to know that my "taking" them is not an option. 

I don't believe there is enough ammo to prove her an unfit parent and I have seen other women in her family that divorce blacken every male around... . successfully... . to the point where the Dads effectively have no influence over kids... .

So while my current situation sucks... completely... . I see a separation as being worse... . by far... than what I have now.

I hear you on that and kids... I have two stepkids.  They are 14 and 12 now and I have been in their lives for 11 years.  I leave, I have no real right to see them... that hurts

My wife keeps asking me for direction in her life.  She says she cannot plan her life and her job/future because she does not know mine.  Mine is pretty much normal... I work in my current career and build it up.  I cannot say that I will have the same job for sure in 5 years or what I will be making in 5 years, but who can.

She has no clue what to do with her life.  She feels no purpose.  She just graduated with a degree in December in Fine Arts, but not sure what to do with it.  She is cleaning houses and obviously not feeling fulfilled.  She is 33, and wants to have a child with me, but at same time if she goes to graduate school and teaches college she will be near 40 and feels time will have run out for a child.  As far as job now, what does she do?  She does not feel she can work a normal 9 to 5 job so she just feels worthless and scared, and this dysregulates her severely.

I think we all have experienced the "what do we do with our lives".  I know when I graduated college, I was not sure what to do with degree, but I had a business degree so much more flexible.  After a year and working a job I did not like, I happened into my own business and has worked out I think well.  In the meantime it was horrible feeling that you had no purpose or place, but it was easier for me cause I was 23 and it was early on so I had plenty of career future, and time for a family.

She is 33, and just do not know what to do with her life and has a degree that is limiting. Nevermind the fact she has an illness that is REALLY limiting.  I just do not know what I can tell her.  I do not know that I can tell her what she needs to do with her life.  Can you tell anyone that?  If it goes wrong, I would think there is blaming over it... .

She is very ambitious, and wants alot out of life too.  She wants to feel important and needed... . At same time, not getting along with people well is a point and she hates monotony. 

I am just baffled.  I feel solving this problem though would help a ton with dysregulation.  It would also give routine to her day which has to be good.

Just in terms of the career direction, I would think that the college/university from which she just graduated would have a career counseling center.  That group will provide assessments and help students explore options.

Has she done an internship?  More and more, students (even those who have graduated) have done unpaid internships just to gain experience and explore career options.

"I leave, I have no real right to see them... that hurts."

Keep in mind that just because you don't have a legal right, doesn't mean it has to be that way or that a judge/social worker won't listen to reason.  Or that your wife won't want to give you some visitation with them if you give child support.  But I know, that still is painful.

I wonder when the last time was that you spent time with normal people who respect you and who you don't have to watch yourself with?  It might be eye opening.  You deserve a break today.

one thing not sure how to handle is how horrible i feel as I see her depressed just sleeping in bed.  I feel incredibly guilty/bad.  Helpless really.  I care so much and it hurts to see her like this.

I am sure some of that bad feeling is knowing that this sort of thing causes dysregulation and possible explosions, but I think we all want our SO to be happy.

Part of me is like, just be happy you are not *required* to do anything. At least you have the option of not being forced into anything...

As far as normal people, I do not know if those actually exist!  The people I work with and my clients are mainly car dealers and are demanding, and condescending.  My family is a bit whacky too.  They are all so wrapped up in their own crap right now.  They should be able to think of others despite having alot on their plate, but they do not.  They are not mean or anything, and they are not rude, but conversations invariably lead back to them and their their issues.

It's a shame to not have support.  People at work are just dealing with you on a work basis.  Your family sounds a bit self centered, and maybe they have to be sometimes.  I wish you had a friend in your community to talk to.  You seem like a really kind, patient person and there are so many people who'd want to help if they knew you - especially people in similar situations.  I remember when I was with my xHusband I would occasionally go to dinner with other moms.  They'd call their husbands and say, "Oh, I'll be 15 minutes late, can you pick up eggs?" Instead of being told they were selfish, or instead of having to beg to stay out 15 minutes later, it was just routine.  It was so different from my messed up situation. 

Something occurred to me.  Our spouses should be proud of us.  They should brag about us.  Not tear us down.

I know she's lying in bed and you feel bad.  She has a lot of potential and love but it is destroyed by an illness, and a cruel one that keeps her from realizing how wonderful you are.   I wish her will to get the right treatment could be stronger than the illness.  Is she on any antidepressants? 

I find myself angry again that there's no good treatment for BPD.  What a waste.

They have her on Wellbutrin...

It is hard... Last night she went to bed early before I got home and asked me to pick up food for kids and soup for her.  So I went and got her some soup, pasta salad, and a salad.  I went home... mixed salad, put pasta and salad in fridge, and put soup in the microwave to keep it warm until she came down.  I then fed the kids, went over their home work, dishes/chores, etc put them to bed... took some time to myself and went to bed. 

At 1 am of course I am woken and told about what is all wrong about us.  I get up this morning panicking.  I remember I did not put the soup into the fridge! she did not get up to eat it.  I go downstairs and really it should have been probably thrown away but I put it in the fridge.  I knew that if I threw it away she would be blow up really bad.  I go back upstairs and she asks me about teh food and if I handled kids last night etc.  She then asks if I got her a dessert... .

... i did not think of that.  I already know based on what she said the day before that its another example that I do not care nor think about her.  I explain I did get her a salad that she did not ask for though. ... she asks if I put the dressing on and I explain I did mix it all for her and had it prepared.  She then told me it was ruined cause it would have wilted... .

failure... failure.  completely failure.  things did turn out ok and she thanked me for caring this morning, but the fear... .

I do not know anymore.  I just do not know

 

I used to put up with the middle of the night wakeups... . and it really tore me down.  I regret doing that.  Even before I realized about BPD... . I understood from talking with friends the no sleep thing wasn't going to work.  It's been a while since there has been any sleep disturbance and months since there has been a pattern of sleep deprivation. 

My life has improved considerably.

Where I'm going is that I think if you established that boundary... . that if you get me up at night... . I don't speak to you... . that you will be ignored... . eventually you will feel much better about a lot of things.

Hang in there ! 

"failure... failure.  completely failure."

No it wasn't.  You did everything right.  Even she realizes that.  She has an illness.

Maybe her doc should know she doesn't get out of bed and that she needs more meds.  How would she take care of those kids alone?  She wouldn't.  Keep a journal.

Its one of those things... Keeping a journal, using examples of how I am good to her... wont make a difference...

She is dysregulated and incapable of rational thought.  I just have to let go and not try and defend myself

The journal is as much for you... . as it is her.  That way you have a touchstone to remind yourself what really happened.

Hang in there!

The journal is for a few reasons.  It's for evidence in case she ever lies about you in court or to child services for some reason.  Like if you are in a divorce and you'd like a little visitation with the kids and she says you abused her or them. 

If you never need the journal, then you never need it.  But you may be glad you had it, rather than having to go back and try to reconstruct things that happened.

Also, it's good for you to have just for your sanity, so you can stop blaming yourself.  It's a good reminder of what really happened when our BPD spouses try to make us feel crazy.

I have a good memory and remember how things happen... I just have the ability of extreme self doubt in trusting that while I see the events for what they are, if my perception and understanding is whacko...


the journal for court is a good point

At same time it makes me think... why are we with people that we have to jump all these hoops and defend ourselves against?  We must be sick too to get into this mess

HH:

We are NOT SICK.  Your are perfectly NORMAL.

My own personal emotional rollercoaster sort of parallels yours.  Right now I try to take time for my self no matter how severe the penalties are upon my return.  I schedule things and put them on my google calendar for her to read .

I know I cannot change her, I cannot change the way she thinks.

I know I must dig down deep inside ME to get me strong.  It's so very hard at times to think I'm not diseased.  Uh-un.

You have the ability: you are here on this forum, you can learn that you are not alone.  What stinks is that the process for most of us takes time---years---and it's all uphill.  Find something for yourself.

My kids and I rehabilitated an abandoned vegetable garden.  We are growing broccoli, texas sweet onions, cucumbers, peppers, arugula and peppers.  We go out side every day and talk to the plants and water them.  My back is killing me from amending the soil and hauling much and oh by the way did I mention the abandoned concrete bench we found... . all are now in the terraced, fenced garden with a kid-built patio along with some wind chimes.  Blood, sweat and tears, but they are proud and so am I.  It renews my strength in myself---not in her illness or its management (which is so in the dumps, but that's another post).

Keeping a journal and tape recording are standard legal advice to protect ourselves.  You could just keep a calendar and make notes on what happened that day.  i know it's an ugly idea and a time waster when you don't have much time as it is.  They're just thoughts.

This is a great idea! My counselor suggested keeping a log of events. Reading back on them kept me from being brainwashed into my BPD's distorted view of events.

It's also helpful because it reminds us just how bad things can get.  Sometimes I question why I divorced my exH.  I just remember the good times.  Then I read the twisted manipulation and remember it.  I'm NOT saying you're going to end up divorced or in that situationj at all, but I think, again, it will help you keep a clear head and realize you're not crazy.  And yes, it is good for court.  Even if you just do it once in a while it's better than never.

Can i ask if your journal was useful in court?  How did that come into play?  Are recordings better than journal?

I didn't end up in a trial so I never had to use anything in my journal, but I felt a bit more empowered that I had notes available if I needed them, and that they were going back a ways so that I could try to say, "See!  I didn't just make all this up about my husband!  I was writing about it three years ago!" 

I have heard from lawyers and many other people that a journal is a good thing to have.  Calendars too, and anything showing what you did with the kids and when if it's a custody case.  So I was writing about his abuse but also keeping track of taking the kids to doc appointments etc.  For HH, if he's not seeking visitation, then the kid parts might be irrelevant.  But maybe not.  His wife could make false claims and such. 

I've always wondered if journals help, because theoretically, you could sit and write a fake journal over a few weeks.  But it's not very likely that someone would do that. 

I would think recordings are much better - they show the behavior and what did or didn't happen, rather than hearsay.  They are not always admissible and not legal in every state, but definitely record.  Even if you can't bring them to court, a custody evaluator coudl hear them (if you're in a custody case.)

All of this business is very ugly business and not what you want to be doing in a relationship.  It took me quite a while to start recording.  Those recordings help remind me how twisted things were.

I just think that if you don't document things, you'll wish you did, but it will be much harder. 

So it's good if it ever comes up in court, but also just good for you personally.  A pain in the next timewise, but maybe you can even set aside a half hour, get something tasty to drink, and start writing.

 

Thanks for the info. 

I'm going to have about a week off while the uBPDw is out of town for spring break. 

I need to take that time to get better organized... . think through a system.

She has dropped some heavy duty threats about "telling everyone"... . getting me in trouble at my job... . etc etc... . I'm a public figure... . so for the last couple weeks I have tried to get a habit set up so that I record and make notes.

It does feel empowering to go back and listen to them say that I was out of control and yelling... and it was 100% the other way around.

Not sure if this is just for record keeping or if there is ever a point where this might help change behavior... or help in therapy.  Marriage counselor has said they are not a judge and assume everyone is telling the truth... . she said it will be difficult to sort through competing claims. 

Still... . I have to think at some point I'll have to force the issue to contradict a direct lie... . otherwise... letting a farce of a counseling effort go on based on lies... . seems wrong.

I had a similar issue in marriage counseling.  exH would lie.  I could have brought a tape recorder and proved to the counselor that he was lying.  Otherwise it was always he said/she said.  But that would make exH aware that I was recording.  So I never did it.  Better that I could keep recording in case I ever needed to protect myself.  Plus, the counselor might have stopped me from playing the tape, said she's not a judge, etc., and it would have been wasted.  I suppose I could have played it in a private session for her.  I was just always careful about showing my hand in case he found out.  In the end, the counselor couldn't change exH's behavior, and if she was too clearly on my side, exH might have stopped going anyhow.

Well, actually, we often are. We can have issues that plug in to theirs.

It can be similar to codependency, with alcoholics.

Not so much as sick, but more flawed or a weakness. That is because we are human and no one is perfect. Often our particular flaws line up with factors that cause us to be vulnerable to the attractions of a pwBPD, and also our inability to protect ourselves properly. Difficulties with creating boundaries and conflict avoidance issues being just two.

Keeping diaries, or just writing stuff down, apart from anything else helps us create structure out of chaos, so that we address things more objectively.

Yeah, I agree about codependency.  Some of us likely do have our own issues.  We may not be cruel and manipulative - may be the opposite, that we love too much or need too much validation or something else. 

Oddly enough she is very public about her recording... . very sporadic... . but everytime she does I invite it... . and say I welcome accountability.

She then will often claim to have recordings proving this that and the other... . that will contradict my stories... . I tell her I'm ready to listen and ready to own up to my improper memory if that is indeed the case. 

Never once has she played them... . and when I ask what they are for the quickly changes the subject... . when I ask why she would bring up having proof if she is not going to use it to correct the record... . same thing... . won't talk about it.

I've never confirmed or denied that I record... . she accuses me all the time... . the proceeds on with acting up.  Like many other facets of this... . it is bizarre.  I would have thought accountability would have moderated her behavior.

It is nice to hear others here going through same thing.  I mean we can read countless threads about how horrible things each of us goes through, but its nice to hear somebody read something here and get hope on how they can use it.

Part of me on the journal thinks

"If I am really having to keep a journal on who I love to protect myself... should I even be married to this person?"

Now, maybe I am saying "No I will not do that cause thats not truly trusting", but that would just be denying that I do need to keep a journal

Still it goes back to... should we really be with these people?  Is it our illness/co dependency that keeps us with these people?

I agree that we are all flawed, and I do not want it to sound like I am saying we are so much sicker, but we do have flaws.

No need to be so black and white about the journal... .   You could ask that "IF I need to keep a journal, should I be married to this person?" question about a million other things - "If I need to be worried at work that they'll harass me, should I be married to this person?" "If we are both in heavy therapy because of how she treats me, should I be married to this person?"  Think of the journal as something to help you cope while you are going through a rough patch.  Maybe you are thinking of it as a betrayal of her.  Try not to think like that.  You're writing a lot of stuff HERE for US just like if you were keeping a journal, so what's the diff? 

Writing a journal (or a log as my counselor called it) is for YOU to remember what really happened. If you write it down yourself then you can't deny it.

I read mine a lot while trying to get away from my BPDex because I kept wanting to believe that all the terrible things he did and said really didn't happen. Writing it down kept me on my path to freedom, which is so very hard to do when trying to break away from a r/s with someone who has BPD.

It is because we are not sick that we can take a good look at ourselves and determine our flaws and weaknesses and work on them. Sickness is the inability to do this.

If you think about journal writing as working on yourself and the problems you face you are mor elikely to be centred about it, rather than it just turning into a grudge list.

Whenever I feel the need for a vent, I like to finish it off with asking what did I do about this? What are my choices, and what can I do? Even if the answer is"nothing". Acknowledging an issue in a realistic way and questioning my response to it is a good learning experience. It increases the chance of putting down a more objective and accurate account

anyone ever experienced what happened if the BPD got ahold of a journal?

One of the caveats to a tape recorder or journal is to definitely keep it where they can't find it.  Maybe at work.

My exH caught me recording and was pretty upset.  It was while we were already separated, though.  So he's more careful what he says now.  If he were in the same household, don't know what would have happened, but he would have been very angry, rather than looking at what made me start taping to begin with.

He never has found my journal.  He doesn't really look through stuff.  You can always buy a strongbox with a key or something.  Of course, then you have to hide the key!

My ex knew I was going to a woman's abuse center for counseling long before I left him. I even told him that that the abuse counselors told me to keep a log of his rages and behaviors (I kept it at work so he couldn't get it and destroy it).

I also hoped that if he knew his behavior was being written down, that it would somehow keep him from getting too out of control.

It didn't make one bit of difference. He really had no control over his own emotions and no empathy for those he abused. His brain just couldn't function properly.

This is what I was thinking.  Has anyone here actually had a relationship that got "good".  I know its relative term, but it keeps sounding like we learn ways to manage and live with who we love, but our lives are still kind of crappy cause of them, assuming we stay.

All these methods seem to be there to protect us and in a way, ultimately gather evidence to protect us on what seems to be an inevitable break up.

I do not want to leave my wife, but I suppose I am trying to figure out is this something that is inevitable?  Is anyone happy here with their marriage?  Obviously no marriage is perfect.  Obviously marriages to BPD will be a bit like living with somebody with a disability, but can it get better?

I do not mean better in that you go from being abused to being just miserable, but thankful you are not abused anymore.  I mean content and happy to be married to these people

Mine is getting a lot better. Partner is still BPD mindset, but can't dump her anger on me. Firstly because it doesn't stick, and secondly because she doesn't feel threatened by me.  But her life is still totally dysfunctional, mine is becoming more functional. Yet somehow we are getting closer at the same time. Conflict has generally gone.

I re read my early posts here and I can't believe I lived like that with no boundaries, it was a kind of hell.

Are you sure it is getting better or is she just deceiving you to keep you sucked in? BPD people seem to be pro's at deception. Mine could act almost normal when it was going to benefit him. Then he was also like a vengeful little child and would plot a dirty deed just to get even and execute it before you knew what hit you. That was another thing I just couldn't live with anymore.

This is good news to hear... . and I am heartened by the limited progress I am made.

I'm also very aware that I made the situation worse due to ignorance.

It is getting better because I am getting better, I am more in control of me, I do not fear the BPD. If there is conflict it is usually me who starts it, and ends it. My partner cannot "act normal". There is no normal in her world as we would define it, and I have no delusions of her being better. She is still as sick as ever. Her life is still a roller coaster, but I can choose when to get on and off it freely.

I get frustrated and angry at times, but I am not resentful or fearful.

What I have learned here has given me an umbrella, I am not afraid of the storm. I may get a little damp at times but I dont get drenched. I can get on with my stuff independent of her stuff.

I am no longer living a default, but a choice.

how do you go about making her not feel threatened by you?

Mine seems to think I am always trying to argue just by asking a question such as "have you seen my toothbrush?"  I am just asking cause I misplaced it, but she immediately thinks I am accusing her... .

Mine had a breakdown last night cause one of our kids fought on the school bus and broke another kids glasses after the kid sprayed him with a water bottle.  I understand my son was rightfully upset, and I understand it was wrong for the bus driver to do nothing, but my kid was even more wrong breaking the glasses which we paid for of course.

My wife thinks its all due to bad parenting, neglectfulness.  I am not going to say that as parents we do not play a role, but he is also in 6th grade...   some is just trying to fit in which he is having a hard time with.  Nothing we can do that can completely solve that

One mindset that I am trying to work on is that I can't "make" anyone feel a certain way... . and they can't "make" me feel a certain way.

That is the same line of thinking that says I "caused" my wife to act badly... or some such thing.


I still admit that normal people can discuss that if you do such and such to someone... . it is reasonable for them to respond in a certain way... .   But... . while I'm still coming to grips with BPD... . I'm trying to move my thinking away from me "causing" anything.

Anyone with thoughts or reactions to that?

Things just got really bad.  I am literally shaking...

Just got a bill in mail for shellfish poisoning trip to ER and kids trip few days later after he had oral surgury and got incredibly sick.

$5k... That puts me at $15k in medical bills this year and that is with top tier individual insurance...

Wife is freaking out saying I need to quit both my jobs which are making 6 figures and get a job with insurance.  That I promised to take care of them and everything is going to ___. 

I am scared to death.  I have gone in 15 months from 0 debt to like $35k.  I am scared of that, but now fighting her... I just do not know what to do. 

OK, first, compartmentalize.

Everyone is healthy at this moment.  This is money.  Granted, that's a boatload of money.  I am not minimizing, just hoping you can breathe... .

Now, first, consider that you may going to be able to itemize deductions (maybe?) if a lot of this is from health.  Maybe on state forms and not federal, maybe both.  This won't solve the problem, but at least in the long run it may help to know it.  Maybe you are in for a refund?

Do not quit jobs - especially now! 

The worst that can happen right now is that she leaves you or keeps harassing you.  This is not great, but consider being firm with her because that is the most you can lose, and things may fall apart anyway.

I'd say that you have to tell her that the debt is bad enough without added panic and the idea of losing jobs.  Make a rule - NO blame placing and NO negative suggestions (like quitting jobs).  Who can argue with that?

I wish there was a way to force her to stop being verbally abusive without cops or courts.  Even an in-home marriage ref (if they existed) would help!

This is a bad situation because I know you don't want to leave her. 

Could you do something silly to avoid fighting back, maybe just do a little dance or take a walk? 

Maybe this is the time to call her shrink.  Maybe she needs to walk out of the house if she is going to yell, place blame, and argue.

Maybe you need a rule in the house of no blame placing, and no interfering in or comments about your job.

This is all very difficult.  YOU ARE LIVING WITH A MENTALLY ILL PERSON WHO YOU LOVE AND DON'T WANT TO LEAVE. 

Wish her shrink would do something, different meds or a firm rule.  I know you have tried your best to help her and her children. 

Maybe there is a way to legally separate without divorce?  Maybe not.  That is a step toward leaving.  I really don't know.  I am sorry you are going through this.

Wait, one more thing:

Sometimes you can wait a while, then call the hospital and just say you are not going to pay, and argue it down.  Hospitals notoriously take forever to collect bills.  DON'T PAY IT NOW.  You have more pressing bills.  Let them send the bills to you again.  At some point, in a year or two years, you can either pay, or ask the court for your wife to pay (if it's a divorce or settlement) or something else.  Or you may be able to settle with them and pay less.  It's a fact that often hospitals will take much less.  Their bills are outrageous.

Medical bills take a long time to be collected, esp since insurances take forever to pay stuff and sometimes get it wrong the first time.

Before our divorce, my exH took our son to the hosp for no reason.  It took an hour in ER and it was a $5K bill!  Insurance paid some.  This was over 2 years ago and I ignored all the bills. A  few months ago my insurance realized they made a mistake and paid a little more - that's after 2 years. 

So I sent the hosp a letter saying my insurance paid a significant amount, the visit was an hour, it was outrageous, and I had no more to pay.

Haven't heard from them again.

Don't give up the ship!

I think you need to take a break before you have a nervous breakdown.

Does your city have a support group for caretakers of loved ones with a mental illness?  Most cities do, call your local hospital to see if they can refer you a local support group.

Ask a lawyer how to go about posting that you are not responsible for any debts incurred by anyone but yourself. That could help avoid her causing you financial ruin.

Yikes, glad I'm not in US. They are horrendous bills. We have have endless medical issues and trips to ER at no cost.

As far as reducing perceived threats go, that comes as an evolving byproduct of reducing conflict by not getting dragged into dramas. Often aggression comes as a form of proactive defensive stance. Eventually they realize you are not going to fight and blame, hence they are not primed for this "pro active defensive stance'

The mistake I made is these new emergency room centers started popping up around town.  They take my insurance, and my insurance says copay is $75 per visit.  My assumption was that they might have items used there to towards my deductible, but the actual trip would be covered.  Apparantly not, apparantly the trip still costs me $2700 just to be seen and thats after they billed just to be seen $5400.  When we left the person up front even said that our insurance has a deal where that would be paid for.  Go figure... .

To make matters worse, my son is out of control at school.  He is cutting himself, he is writing on desks, fighting, grades bad, etc.  When he gets home he is fine.  They say its people at school influencing him (teachers that is).  This is spinning my wife further out of control.

I do not know what to do.  My wife is jobless for the most part, abusive, and spinning out of control.  One son does whatever he wants and is with his neglectful father half the time so I cannot do crap.  The other is emotionally a wreck and out of control.

I have no more money to help any of them.  My wife is telling me that I promised her a better life and our life is ___.  We live in a starter home, we are in debt, she has a degree she cannot use, our kids are a mess.  She is going to have to get a fast food management job and she would rather do that and divorce me than live with me. 

I guess I could have chosen a different career path.  I am 36 now... I am not in a coporate job.  I have no clue what company would take me based on the skillset I have currently and my job history and hire me on locally, with no travel, at 45 hours a week, for $100k a year, full benefits...   Maybe commission... but there is no guarantee there. 

Yes, I do not have full benefits in current job, but I have picked up the best insurance an individual can get... I am doing ok making 100k a year.  I do not know what to do about the medical bills.  I do not know what to do...   $28k last year and $15k so far this year even with insurance.  Insurance just does not cover mental health much and not much on dental. 

Yes, she maybe ungrateful and wrong and everything... So I leave?  Then what... I cannot afford a divorce.  I then have kids already shattered even more hurt.  I have threats, and taunts, and guilt from an ex that I love dearly.  I am sure after time I could put myself back together, but what about the kids?  Can I even make it through the initial time?

I want to stop living rather than deal with what my wife and the life I have now is putting me through, and I rather stop living than leave and deal with the guilt.

If I go hospitalize myself, its just more bills and things will only be financially worse when I get out and I will be without a job.

I can only think of one way to stop the guilt.  I cannot mentally handle this.  It is selfish, but I beg God all day everyday to help me.  I cry, i plead, I try my best.  It is just not good enough.

I am mentally weak.  I should have never have gotten involved.  I have either hurt her and done things she has said, or I have exacerbated things with my own weakness with boundaries and mental issues.  I am not mentally strong enough to move on, nor stay put.  If I stay, everything stays the same for all.  There is no hope. 

My job is going down anyways.  I am working two jobs and one is about tapped out and the other has a great future, but is low pay right now.  Both are taking from the other.

I do not want control anymore.  I do not want the burden.  I do not want to feel responsible or the guilt.  I cannot punish the kids

Hurt Husband, please don't do something that will make so many people sad.  There IS a way out. 

First, you have guilt when you shouldn't.  I too have made mistakes but I am trying my best and I am human.  You are in a messed up situation.  If your family is not helping you, then those are just more people who probably made life harder for you growing up instead of helping.  You have not had the help you needed in life and you certainly don't have it now.

DO NOT quit your job. 

I want you to know that you are a good writer, seem sensitive and smart, and lots of people would want to help you and be with you and at least be your friend.  36 is so young!  You don't see a lot of this for what it is.

You feel bad about the kids, but hurting yourself won't help them. 

The thing about BPD is that the person trains their abuse and cruelty on the one closest to them, who can take it.  If you remove yourself a bit, they cannot do that. 

As for not being able to afford a divorce - you could find other ways to separate your finances legally.  Or just file for divorce and don't serve her.  Or dont' do any of that.  You have all those choices.

Another choice is to just do what you want every day.  Leave, go to work, take walks, go to events.  If she wants to file for divorce, it's on her.  She hasn't done that yet.

I don't see why she'd want to take a fast food job and leave you at the same time.  All these people (my exH included) make you think they want to leave you.  SHe depends on you.  I dont' know that she'd leave.  My H used to run away all the time.  Then when I got fed up and filed for divorce, suddenly he begged me to drop it.

You can probably get most of these ER places to reduce their bills.  Just wait a while and then tell them you don't have it.  What are they really going to do?  Nothing!  As I mentioned, lots of them realize they are overcharging, insurance companies may even tell you that they are NOT allowed to charge you past a certain amount.   

You need to realize that a lot of these problems are not your problems.  I know you love the kids.  You can be there for them in a better way if you are healthier.  If you can get a break, take a vacation, or just have a night a week to go out.

Since you have nothing to lose at this point, why not do some extreme things - go to your wife's T and say things need to change.  Go to your own T.  See a lawyer. 

I think the biggest problem is that you love your wife and she has an illness that pushes you away, even if deep down she knows you're the best thing that will ever happen to her.  But you have to be able to breathe in order to be a good person, and to be there someday for others.

No one is dying, so besides that, things can only get better.  They will.

Since you are having thoughts of hurting yourself, please talk to a therapist now.  You deserve better.

"I have either hurt her and done things she has said, or I have exacerbated things with my own weakness with boundaries and mental issues."

You're not an expert in psychiatry.  No one could spend 24 hours a day trying to figure out how to placate a person with mental illness.  You're a superhero for getting this far.

Please let a therapist help you think of good solutions.

The hard part is I hear what a therapist says, I know what they say is true, but I cannot get accept it at my core. 

It is very similiar to my OCD.  I know that bad things are not happening to me because, say, I ate eggs that morning, it makes no sense, it is not real.  I know it is not real, but my mind will not let it go.  It still keeps nagging, and hammering on me.  The easiest thing is to just eat another egg to "make the sequence right".  Similiarly, I know the truth with my wife, but it keeps nagging that "maybe you cannot see the truth because you are ill.  maybe you are manipulating those around you so they see only your version"

last thing I want to be is unfair, but my logic tells me "if she can be so messed up mentally that she does not see the truth, then it would be rational to assume others, including myself could be so messed up mentally that we do not see the truth"

From a philosophical and logical standpoint, that is a possibility even if its only a 10% of chance.  I am not sure... I am not all there right now... working alot, I have not actually eaten a meal in nearly 3 days besides drank an Ensure.  Sleep is hard because its just nightmare of the same fighting and waking up in panic that she is going to come downstairs and yell at me more.

I want to go back in time... Past ten years have been hard.  Yea, I have had my wife been trouble, but even without that which consumes everything, it has been rough.  Two people I was very very close to, my grandparents both died.  My father and his father who owned a successful business for 50 years and was what I always wanted to go into, closed wiping out all their savings, because they guaranteed their their own assets for loans for the business.  Its hard seeing them go from millionaires to nothing. I feel badly for them

My brother in that 10 years has become HIV positive, my aunts and uncles, turned against my mother because she was left more in a will.  My mother divorced my stepfather, my father is constantly looking to me to get him money now. 

15 years ago, I had prospects for a great future.  Everyone in my family I loved was alive and close to each other.  Now, my family is fragmented and dead or suffering... I just wish I was a kid again.  I might have gotten bullied in school, but it was nothing compared to this

That's funny - your last two sentences.  I was thinking that exact thing today, that it's been so long since anyone took care of me.  When I was a kid and I went to relatives' houses, they all wanted to hear what I was doing, they fussed over me, they accepted me.  Then my brother and I would get back into the car and get driven home.  I could go to sleep and know my parents had the wheel.  That was it.  No responsibilities except to get good grades and be cute.  I still take any (small) chance I get to see relatives, but I have to push for it now.  I love staying in hotels or being on a bus because someone else is taking care of things, driving, etc... .   I miss being a kid, having everyone alive, and not having responsibilities... .

I got bullied too (for being the smart, shy kid) but when I think back to my childhood, I remember riding bikes, getting praised for my grades, hanging out at my grandparents' on holidays.

But that's a tangent.  You know, that feeling can be back again someday - there are people out there to care about you, not always to need to be taken care of.  There will be people who want to take care of you.  I know things look bleak, but 36 is not what you think it is.  You are young, smart, hard working... . and right now, tapped out.

Please eat something.

Then, please think about this:  You mentioned possibly huring yourself.  Yet, you are afraid to leave your family.  Wouldn't hurting yourself hurt them more than walking away for a bit?  It sounds like you've backed off of that idea, but I want to reiterate this:  Please don't do anything rash.  It would just leave a lot of people feeling bad.  I know that people feel bad anyway, but they can handle it, more than you realize.

A lot of people preached tough love to me over the years.  I didn't do well with it - I have a brother who's a hermit and a mom who's bipolar and I constantly give them money.  But I have been trying to wean them a bit.  I have my own problems now.

You have to do what you feel comfortable with.  You don't want to be the one walking away.  But you are letting this person destroy you.  You can't go 3 days without eating, and be a wreck - what happens if you faint or end up in the hosp anyway.  (Maybe that's what you subconsciously want - a break, without overtly taking one?  You do deserve one... . )

Your debts are not as high as some people's.  Your problems, confusing as they are, are solvable.

Out of all the extreme things you could do, how about doing the least extreme one - see your therapist or your wife's therapist immediately, be honest about everything.  Maybe talk to a lawyer too, just to see if there's a way to stop your wife from harssing you at work and in the home without leaving you.

It seems a nearly impossible situation.  And yet - you are smart, you are kind, maybe you did or said things you're guilty about (I certainly have) but most of us are shown mercy for being human.  Show yourself a little mercy.

I hope things get better soon.  They can't get worse.    What's your favorite food?  Go eat it, bubeleh.  ALso, is there anyone you could talk to who's not totally crazy who can help?  Maybe time to come clean.

I think maybe one of the shrinks might have insight, but you've got to tell them eeeeverything.

all the problems are frustrating cause so few are my direct doing.  Dealing with the problems is something I know i can fix and handle, but the dealing with the non-rationale beligerent, abuse is something that does unnerve me.  It makes trying to do or solve other problems pointless and sucks the life out of me.

Saturday I went home after work, still concerned over her behavior.  I get home, and she says she wants to have a nice night and get along.  She had been cleaning the yard.  I thanked her and offered my help of course.  We went to dinner, and had a nice time.  She explains she is now bringing in $2k a month in cleaning (I had no clue nor seen that much money from her before) and that she would like me to check about renting a small efficiency apartment from my mother for studio space which would be about $608 a month all bills paid.  I am a bit hesitant as it is money, but she is upping what she brings to the table and it will help her get her art career off the ground which sounds like an investment.  My second problem is how my mother will feel since there has been animosity, from my wife primarly, towards my mother.  I am not sure if my mother will like that particularly since the spot she wants will be attached to the main office i work.  I agree to check into it as I do believe the one thing that can really help more than anything is her finding her calling and direction.  It can be completely depressing and disheartening to not have a job or one that you hate.  To go to college and feel that you wasted your time.  Must be even worse for somebody with BPD and I am sure is a big factor in the things going on.  Basically, she is at my mercy she feels (which she controls me, but she does not directly see that).  I agree to talk to my mother today which has me worried

Anyways, she goes out with her friends and at 2:20 am, I text her asking how she is doing and if everything is going well.  Basically, had not heard so was a bit concerned.  She writes back some nasty texts.  I see what is coming.  I put on clothing, knowing that I might need to leave once she gets home.  She gets home at 3:30 am and attacks on how our life is ___ and we are going nowhere because I do not know my future.  That I need to be doing more and I am not changing.  I finally go sleep in my care at 4:30 am, or try to.  All of Sunday is a day of how everything we have and are is ___.  How its all about me being cheap, how me doing everything half assed...

I dont know... if I was cheap would our debt rocket up $33k in one year after nearly having my best year ever?

I shake alot now... adrenaline... fear...   I cannot survive like this.  The only alternative is to leave, but I am not sure I can handle the guilt of leaving her.  I think some of that is my OCD.  I will obsess over it and the guilt of it all.  It will just haunt me incessantly.  It feels like the only solution to actually living is a miracle happening and she accepting me, but that would be a miracle... .

I am in a bad spot.  I think the OCD is binding me too, binding me to the abuse.  I cannot accept rationale thinking that I need to break away.  That there is nothing else I can do.  I hear it, and it makes sense, but I cannot feel it.  At same time, it maybe OCD that prevents me from killing myself too.  So I cannot leave, I cannot hurt myself, and I cannot stand up and its all from OCD.  I have myself in a torture box

Hurt,

You started out in this thread listing some of the things that are the problem with your wife.  Fact is, they were all only flavor of the day.  The overarching issue is that she has a mental illness.  YOU cannot fix this. 

But you ended up in this last post acknowledging that you had some of your own stuff to work on.  YOU CAN work on these items, and they have nothing to do with your wife.  AND, if you can improve your own emotional health it will make you better equipped to deal with your wife.

Talk to your T about what YOU can do to improve YOU.  A good start, and one that is entirely within your control

I think what yeeter just said is worth reading.  These problems are overwhelming.  It is hard enough to someone completely healthy to deal with them (and they would make anyone Unhealthy!)  If you end up sick, more broke, or in a hospital, you can't help anyone.  Please talk to your therapist.  Daily if you have to!  Or get a new one, maybe one who specializes in a number of things including personality disorders and ocd and anxiety... . if you have a university hospital near you, you can find out who the specialists are. 

I think a good T can maybe help you and then maybe even get her to come in and help the situation.

If not, stick with your own T but be honest.  Maybe he can refer you to someone.  Maybe you can get on medication that will help you... .

Saturday seemed so promising - although frankly, asking to rent your mother's efficiency just puts another hook in you to make you MORE guilty if you leave.  And what happens if she refuses to pay for some reason - suddenly that becomes your responsibility too and you have to bail out your mom.  It's another TRAP.  Lie if you have to - say anything to avoid it.  And if she's pulling in $2K a month, she should be helping pay off her ticket back from Europe (not to mention the kids' medical bills), but that's neither here nor there. 

You are making excuses when you say it must feel awful to not do anyting with your degree.  Yes, at least half of us experience that, so it is a shame, but it's not an excuse for all the behavior.  And I know you know that.

She gets to go out with friends.  Do you?

I would advise you not to rent that efficiency, because it can just cause more trouble.  Why not designate a room in your house for her to work in?  Or set a goal, like, how about we get $10K of OUR debt paid off, and then I will talk to my mom?  That gives you a good reason to put it off, and is worded carefully enough to remind her about the mutual debt.  Or you can say that once you pay off the European trip and 50 percent of the kids' medical bills, you will talk to her.  Just word it to make it fact based and solution based.  It's not a guilt trip, it's just a fact that you BOTH accumulated debt and need to work on it.

When she says your life is sh--, you should remind her that it's not at all - you have a house of love.  You have two people who love each other and two great kids.  Can't argue with that.  (I mean, she will, but it won't be your fault.)

The change from Saturday to Sunday is what mental illness is - it makes no sense.

So please talk to a good therapist, not a passive one, like the previous poster said, so this doesn't destroy you any further.  There are better days ahead, HH!

HH, you sound like you are literally just on the edge of completely falling apart.

 I so wish I could make things better for you.

My advice to you comes from the safety briefing on an airplane. "Put your own oxygen mask on first before assisting others."

You need to take good enough care of yourself that you hold together. Then you will have some energy left to help your wife.

More specifically, hold tight to the actual reality you are facing, and don't let your wife tell you that the sky is down, or that it is your fault what she is doing, etc. etc. etc.

Reality #1: Your wife is mentally ill, and isn't capable of giving you good advice. She is desperate to fill some holes in herself that aren't fillable, and is trying to grab straws out of your hands to do this.

So she cannot give you good advice on your career right now. Don't waste energy telling her this, just make your own decisions and follow through on them.

She also isn't in touch with the financial realities of your household budget.

I have heard that many hospitals/etc. will be pretty reasonable about debt collection. If you talk to their billing department and explain that you don't have the money they are owed, and make at least token payments, you may buy years of breathing room on this.

Sorry, when I said "You are making excuses when you say it must feel awful to not do anyting with your degree.  Yes, at least half of us experience that, so it is a shame, but it's not an excuse for all the behavior.  And I know you know that."

... . I meant, making excuses for her, which is totally fine - you are a nice and sympathetic person.  But I just meant, we all have been through that with our liberal arts degrees.  She is taking it to an extreme.  You are a good person for hanging on with her.

I rushed through my response, so it sounded harsh when it was not intended to be that way.   I just want to say what others have said, you need to be healthy.  Since you're not leaving, step out of the situation a little bit. 

A threapist who specializes in personality disorders and your own problems may be able to think of ways to help you deal with her, if you go see a person like that.

Please hang in there, HH!  I'm rooting for you. 

And I'm proud of you for all you have done, and are doing.  Many people would not be able to handle it.

*mod*

Hi everyone. 

This thread has reached the four-page limit, and is now locked.  There have been some interesting points raised, please feel free to explore these further by starting another topic.