BPDFamily.com

This thread is a piggyback to another thread about what is appropriate to disclose to kids in a r/s with a pwBPD.  More specifically, my question to Seeking Balance (or anyone interested in sharing) was:

SB, I actually have a question for you regarding this.  I understand the concept of 'emotionally age appropriate" disclosure for kids, especially those skewing younger or emotionally immature.  However at what point in your opinion does this become a self-defeating behavior for the "non"?  Let me explain... .

In a significant r/s with a pwBPD, the eggshell effect (the "non" not wanting to do or say anything that will trigger dysregulation in the pwBPD) seems to butterfly out to the "non's" secondary r/s's as well.  I.e. keeping information from close friends, family, in-laws, etc.  At what point do you believe open disclosure about (in this case) BPD is appropriate with other affected parties?  Because it seems there is a predisposition for the "non" to isolate him/herself (other than perhaps a 'T' and thus begin the slow process of going completely insane.  Is there a general "rule of thumb" when it comes to discussing personality disorders in publicus?  It seems to me the only way to begin to destigmatize PD's is to stop walking around them as if we were talking about the occult or black magic.

I'm interested not just in thoughts from mods but any who may have discussed this with their T's or other support people.

Sunny Side,

Great topic!  I think there definitely needs to be more of a public understanding of PD's in general and maybe that would lead more people affected, those with PD's and nons, to seek help. 

For me, I entrusted some friends and family members along with my T with examples of what I was dealing with while I was in the r/s.  I told nothing to my D because I feared it could affect her r/s at the time with my ex gf.  So, I was pretty open and everyone including my T encouraged me to leave the r/s because my ex gf wasn't seeking the appropriate help she needed and things were deteriorating.  I then stopped sharing and even stopped seeing my T for a while because I started to believe what my ex gf was saying that I was the one causing the issues in the r/s.  I finally came to my senses and ended the r/s, at which time I typed out 18 pages of examples of abuse that I allowed and endured.  I shared this with a group of four friends and family members along with my T.  Those folks effectively became my accountability team.  It was truly humbling to let people know what I endured and also so healthy to finally release it. 

So, I'll say this thing.  I think it's probably as important or more important for discussion and education to be done around boundaries, verbal and emotional abuse, etc.  At 48 years old, I had no clue that what I was enduring was abuse and that I had every right to enforce my own healthy boundaries to protect myself against it.  I want that for my D and for everyone else out there who may face it in the future, PD or not.

There is a lot here, SS, thanks for bringing this up.

I would first preface this with the statement that it might not necessarily be nice to go around calling someone mentally ill in polite company. That being said, I laid out everything to those on "my side" who may never have contact with her again. These are close friends, some of whom I've known 20 and even 30 years, since I was a kid. This has been a great outlet of support. One friend even got into reading some about BPD. No one doubted me, though they tired of me talking about the uDx'd disorder. The behaviors and what is going on in "real time" count.

We live in a large city, but a somewhat small ethnic community. I'm still in contact with her family. I pretty much keep my mouth shut. If I didn't, they might see me as the crazy one. Additionally, I'm not going to engage in familial alienation. They are dissappointed and hurt enough that our family broke up (I really think they looked up to us in a way). They witnessed some verbal abuse of me. They experienced it as well since she grew up in that house. I could come out with every single story, along with the few times she threw and broke things, and they would believe it. But would it be productive, or would it cause more pain? I know the truth. That's enough for me.

Talking to my T, he neither validated nor invalidated my "diagnosis" of BPD. Again, he focused me back on the behaviors and how I was dealing with things. How I felt.

Talking about PDs on my FB page, even in general, would be like her not-so-subtle devaluations of me before I blocked her. People pick up on things. My view is to find a safe outlet, but all but accusing your SO of having a PD by talking about it publicly is playing with fire that will likely burn you in the end. Find a safe outlet to do so if you can.

SB will probably provide a much more experienced and revealing answer, but I can offer my $0.02 because I went through exactly the same thing you are describing.

As the relationship was starting (on my end at least), and early in the dating phase, she started disclosing disturbing things about her family and what was happening. She always made it sound as she was the one generally OK, and over the whole thing that happened in her family. While the rest of the family... . She felt deeply ashamed about them - at least that was the way she put it. When she was describing her sibling (who was psychotic and most likely BPD too - the whole family as it turned out were mentally ill), she was talking with a lot of hatred in her voice, and a clear disgust on her face. That should have been a BIG red-flag! Would a normal and compassionate person ever talk about her mentally ill sibling in such a way full of hatred, no matter what their relationship was alike (and it was always really good until sibling got worse, according to her)? Of course not. Such would be the reaction only of another mentally ill person! Later, she admitted everything, BPD diagnosis and her history... . I broke it off, came here, learned about the whole thing, and everything just clicked! Full NC since then. A few attempts to recycle from her side. They subsided, and she has not contacted me for almost two weeks now.

But, back to your question, I was being fed the "secrets" as we were dating. I remember that I was deeply disturbed, but was not disclosing details to anyone. Which was completely abnormal! The things she was talking about as having happened (not to her directly, but within her extended family) were deeply disturbing to me, as I come from a normal family. I had very serious intentions with her, and would (normally) at least talk to my family about such things or mentioned them to my friends. But no, I did something completely unlike me, and just kept shut... . And those are not the things that one should keep shut about! When I look back at it, I see that I was in a way mirroring as well. I was transforming myself into a protector and a healer for a person that I knew essentially nothing about. I was coming up with excuses to keep shut about it: "she has no fault in that - those things were out of her control, and could not affect her even though her family is messed up." Then when she said that it affected her when she was younger, my mind came up with "how could I even think that she would have been able to get through what happened without a crisis in her life and ill effects; it's completely normal, and she is very mentally healthy despite what happened; I admire her - poor thing!" As she was opening up (not about herself), but about her family background, and I was finding out that the whole extended family was deeply affected by the history of events, my ego grew bigger to protect my sweet hermit/waif.

If it's not apparent, I am expressing irony for my stupid self here. All of these are red flags, something that should not be kept a secret, but discussed with your closed ones. I was blinded by love and was disregarding any and all CLEAR pointers to her mental illness. I lacked skepticism completely!

So, Sunny Side, for me the point where I stopped keeping "secrets" is when she admitted it all, her BPD, her lies and manipulations... . I would not leave her (at the time) because she had BPD, but because I realized she demonized everything around her, presented herself as this sweet little angel, while in fact she was and is the opposite! At that point, I was in a delirium: what do I do? Can I fix her? Can I cure her? What do I do with myself? How do I get over the fact that she lied to me about everything? Should I help someone who, after everything that happened, said that she doesn't even know how she feels about me? I had lava flowing in my head! And then I had to talk. I had to tell everything that happened to the closest people in my life. They were cool-headed enough to see it as it is; I entered a relationship with a mentally ill person, and I was SEVERELY hurt and affected. But, I was getting support from them in any decision of mine... . I remember the next evening: I started learning about BPD and found bpdfamily, and learned so much from here. There was only one reasonable solution: run and don't look back!

So, I allowed myself to see it as it is and stop keeping secrets that should not be kept. Looking back, that was the most difficult decision. But it was right and, if I learned anything in life, the best decisions are usually the most difficult ones. I wanted to save her while, in reality, I desperately needed to save myself from her. She does not want to be saved!

Well, secrets and shame are detrimental to mental health - that is a pretty consistent theme from everything that I have read

Fundamentally, boundaries (Madison pointed out) are critical to not falling prey to secrets and shame. 

I will say a book that is helpful in pointing out these people in LifeCode.  He calls them BAITERS:  "Identify the BAITERs (Backstabbers, Abusers, Imposters, Takers, Exploiters and/or Reckless people) through the “Evil Eight” Identifiers."

I believe we hold secrets due to shame.  The best description of late regarding this is from Brene' Brown IMHO.  From Brene: "Shame needs three things to grow exponentially in our lives: secrecy, silence, and judgment."

SO... . in keeping with the Detachment theme of this board - where would you apply this question in terms of the detachment process?  Good question sunnyside  |iiii

My goodness, what great and thoughtful replies from all of you.  This site and boards are truly outstanding, so well structured, so well thought out.  I'm just very grateful for it.  I'm going to read through your responses again and respond to each of them later tonight. 

Again, thank you SB, Turk, Cool and M66 so much.  You've managed to outdo my T session yesterday in the space of under an hour and for a C-note less.  Gratitude all around guys, thank you. 

.

M66, very wise of you to assemble an accountability team.  In my situation I became somewhat isolated among my ex, her H and their two kids and had shut off from most of my friends b/c our situation was so fraught with red flags.  It was such a dysfunctional group and lifestyle that I think we all became inured to it.  I often said to her (before I knew about BPD) that they had been making the abnormal "normal" for so long in their family that they never had reference for what 'normal' was.  I also realize now I was totally enmeshed (compromised decision making), she had BPD, her stbx H's health was deteriorating rapidly (MS) and the kids (9 and 10 at the time) had no healthy reference point and were too young for disclosure.  I did tell my own mom, my brother and a close friend who knew all the participants but I didn't know about BPD at the time.  I only knew her chaotic behaviors far exceeded what we think of as quirks of personality.  Thus my 'accountability team' was mostly myself and contributed to isolation and tumbling quickly down the rabbit hole.  And as we know, isolation in a BPD r/s usually ends up with you in a fitted white jacket and the pwBPD locking the rubber doors. 

 


Agreed.  Awareness, safety and practicality supersede the blind wagon train of hope.

And I don't wish your 18 PAGE list of abusive behavior on anyone, I'm just glad you made it out!

Turkish, you raise excellent points.  Of course any disclosure must be done in the proper context.  Places like FB or other gathering spots where it would be used as a shaming tool would not be helpful or proper for those suffering.  I do disagree though about the use of the term "mentally ill" as a pejorative, even with the Cluster B dx's.  PD's can be devastating for friends, family, husbands, wives, kids and everyone involved.  However I think the outdated stigma and shame components are what keep many away from pursuing effective avenues to manage, address or get educated about those that are treatable.  Not long ago many ignorant and uninformed people considered homosexuality to be a disorder, a mental illness or contagion that could be "cured".  In a fairly "short" time since the 90's and with the detonation of the internet age these stone age beliefs have been all but deconstructed as they should be.  Having open, healthy dialogue about differences in sexuality is no longer a conversation to be avoided or a pulpit for humiliation and shame. In the decades that come hopefully mental illness will be the next domino to fall and the peers, family and loved ones of those afflicted will have the courage to 'come out of the closet' and discuss these issues in an open and supportive light.


I see the wisdom in this of course.  In my case it would serve absolutely no purpose to engage her dysfunctional family in a discussion of their relatively higher functioning but equally dysfunctional daughter/sister.  They're all fairly nuts!

As far as my T, the only relevance I feel a BPD dx has is related to my understanding my participation in the r/s and where my enmeshment likely originated from.  At this point in the game the label itself means absolutely nothing.


Yes, absolutely agree.

Thanks, Turkish

Wow Cool, that must have been hell to go through and I can obviously relate.  :)id you feel any relief at all when she 'confessed' to you?  That doesn't happen often from the accounts I've read from 'nons'.  

And I completely identify with the delirium.  There were times driving home after a night or weekend with her dysfunctional family and distorted behaviors that I found myself telling myself out loud, "SS, you need to extract from this entanglement NOW!  I know you feel like you love this girl and are devoted for the long haul but look at yourself, man! You're going NUTS!"  I think I had only told one friend about the r/s at this point and it was just to disclose that I was in the r/s with her (she was still married to our close mutual friend) and to ask him his opinion about pursuing a long term r/s with her.  At that time I don't remember I was aware of BPD but was definitely experiencing all the dysregulated behavior in droves.



I tend to agree with this.  Each context is unique but when a secret becomes destructive to us I believe it is time to be released.  Each of us however must determine this for ourselves and be mindful of the intended consequence.  Thanks for sharing, Cool.

Thanks for the reply, SB.  Is the book called LifeCode  And I was looking at Brené Brown on Amazon the other day.  Which book do you recommend?


SB, I think I thought about it more during the r/s than now but perhaps 'Processing' applies.  During the r/s it was a major theme for me for her and I to bring the r/s 'into the light' as I called it b/c I felt there had been too many secrets that were kept in that family (in which I had become enmeshed) that lead to nothing but destruction.  In a distorted way I felt I was the only carrier of 'truth' in the whole mishegoss and it was troubling to me to think of continuing the r/s repeating more secrets and soft lies from the past.  I also realize now I that when my ex started to reveal secrets to me (pre our romantic r/s) about her infidelities in their marriage, their sexual dysfunctions and her trauma-filled past that I was being triangulated for future participation.  And now suddenly I had a secret that I felt I needed to share with her H, who was my good friend ("You're being played by your wife! Don't you see?".  I struggled with this for quite a while and ultimately ended up compartmentalizing my decision to engage in a romantic with her.  And as you and Madison alluded to, my compromised and compartmentalized boundaries in the face of these all these 'secrets' were quite poor.

Also, I was close friends with my uBPDex's MIL long for several years prior to my r/s with uBPDex.  The MIL was aware that there were problems in her son's marriage and in some ways (I now realize) I allowed myself to be triangulated as a surrogate son (for MIL) and replacement husband/father (for BPD ex and kids) in her son's family.  Quite complicated but in hindsight much clearer now.  I always felt guilty not be able to reveal to her that I became engaged in a r/s with her DIL and that DIL and her son were on the road to separation.  I spoke to my T about this yesterday and I'm still deciding whether and what I want to share with MIL now about our r/s, if at all.  It feels dishonorable to me not to disclose and be accountable what my role was but I'm still processing that I think. 

Thanks, SB for suggesting a new post.  You guys need to add a "sleepy" emoticon, cause I'm about to hit the hay... .

Sorry, I was unclear on that.

Lifecode is by Dr. Phil actually - it is about recognizing people who are out to use you.

Brene Brown has 2 books I found amazing - Gifts of Imperfection and Daring Greatly... . to be read in that order.  You can check out her talks on TED.


Sunny Side - you are starting to dig into your part of this which is good.  Overall, you allowed yourself to be in a very messy situation by the sounds of it - not judging, stating the obvious is all.  If I were in your shoes, I would take a hard look in the mirror (step 2) on why I allowed myself - ie... . what hole in me was I trying to fill.


RE:  disclosing to MIL - for what purpose?  To relieve your own guilt?  Honestly, dig deeper into your own stuff before stirring up any additional drama in that family is my 2 cents.  Be clear on you before you can be accountable to someone else.  Are you planning on maintaining a relationship with MIL?  Could you see this as some of the boundary work on yourself?  You seem to be asking hard questions, so I am pushing you a bit to dig deeper for what you are really doing with this entire family.

Peace,

SB

Yes, weeks later, I am still recovering. It is getting much better, but I still have "flashes" and memories keep coming... . Same stuff happening to all of us here... .

Her 'confession' was actually far more traumatic than relieving. I think it is because, subconsciously, I knew all along that many things were just not right. And her admitting some of the things (she was clearly hiding more) confirmed all my subconscious fears. I saw it coming, but I did not want to see it, if you know what I mean? I was neck deep in love (on my side, of course - she simply can't love) and so entangled in the whole situation. I am aware that pwBPD generally don't confess to nons, but in my case I think she had her own set of assumptions about me that wanted confirmed as well, and she was using her confession as the means of establishing "honesty."

I am generally a very trusting guy, but everything she did had a hidden agenda. I was not really aware of it at the time. But she lied about pretty much everything - even the small stuff like "I've never been to this particular place", then we go in and she knows the menu like the back of her hand. It was obvious that she was frequenting the place. Then, financially, she was openly putting herself in the "waif" position, wanting me to take care of her while making sure that her pride isn't hurt. Don't get me wrong, I am generous to a fault - people always tell me that - but she was constantly testing the waters, and making sure she gets a good piece of the pie. Manipulation and lies, big and small... .

Even the confession episode was absurd. She first confessed about one thing that she lied about all along. Then, when she saw I was shocked, she went silent. In all the shock, I could still see that she was acting out the distress, and scheming what to say next. It all happened so fast that she probably felt cornered, and admitted that she was diagnosed with BPD and that "made her" do all these things... . She was saying everything in such a way that even she could not believe herself (she actually said that when she saw the expression on my face).

In the aftermath, after she saw how her multi-stage 'confession' affected me, she wanted to take it all back. An honest person never does that! They never let things progress so far without establishing honesty and trust. She had all of that on my end.


I am right there with you, man. I know exactly what you mean... . I guess we constantly were pushing ourselves to rationalize and validate... . I know that I forgot about myself completely. It was all about pleasing her, what she wanted... .

I am glad you got out, dude. No better decision than that!



Yes, that decision is best made on our own as each situation is unique. I personally think that BPD relationships are that complicated that some outside help is often sorely needed, so that's an option everyone should consider... . No problem, SS, it looks like you are doing better and I am glad! Being here for each other helps a lot! I know the family here helped me a whole lot in the past few weeks. Can't be grateful enough to everyone here!  

Thanks for bringing this up.

It is like a paradox.


Cant talk about what uBPDdad does with his 50/50 custody time, that would be parental alienation.

Cant talk to his family; stonewall denial.

I cant talk without saying the truth, so we dont talk.

If I say the truth to any but my closest posse, I am "shaming" (the police offficers words) him.

I cant talk about it at alanon or aa cause uBPDx is their doctor.

The lawyers both his and mine made sure it was all hidden and secret.

I had/hid /covered up /was in denial for 10 years within the secrets.

1/2 My kids have been hurt, those who know, and are not happy with me.

the other 1/2 of my kids in denial and blame me, but I cannot tell the truth to.

I finally printed an abusive email from uBPDx threatening to further alienate daughter blah blah blah. (Probably the 3000th nasty email )

gave a copy to 3 people, revealing one part of the secrets.

one was our daughters teacher, who was relieved to get some understanding.

and 2 other male figures in our lives I hold accountable for support and guidance roles.

I was scared of BPDX, It took me 3 years to feel more strong and protective of myself and kids than scared of UBPDX.

uBPDx seems to have been quieter lately.

It is such a delicate balance and Im so sick of the drama of it.


I resent the secrets.

So I am at the point that survival causes me to stop keeping secrets.

I have the biggest lump in my throat and gut right now

I heard someone say this disease takes hostages.

Is it  the secrets that keeps us hostage?

Xlnt, SB.  Thanks for the book recommendations.


I'm beginning that process with my T.  I've already got my ideas SB on where this "hole" opened and it was long before I entered a relationship with her.  The mutual friend we (myself and her separated H) both shared was in town this weekend and we had breakfast this morning.  It was the most in depth conversation he and I had about my role in the relationship (he was in town to visit the separated H of my ex) and he was able to give me some much needed outside perspective on the whole cycle (we've known each other for some 20 years).  What he pointed out (and I agree with) was just how vulnerable a stage I was in my life when the r/s started and I how isolated I had become (self-imposed really).  Not a good recipe for maintaining healthy boundaries, concepts which I'm re-learning now.


I appreciate the advice w/r/t the MIL and hope you know in general I prefer frank, open talk from you and board.  So no worries about judgment .

Understand MIL was someone who was like a second mother to me, and I like a son to her.  I worked charity functions with her, was a fixture at holidays, shared lunches and phone conversations with her during which we always had blunt and straightforward conversations about many things.  Her own dysfunctions aside, she is someone I have a tremendous amount of respect for.  Guilt?  Yes, perhaps about not sharing this with her.  I wanted to but both H and ex didn't want to disclose it to her and I regrettably agreed to keep their 'secret'.  That said, as I process my own recovery I believe I'll know if/when the proper time to speak with her is, if at all.  I don't know what a future r/s with her looks like but as a footnote my friend told me today that she already knew about our r/s and I figured as much.

As for the rest of their family, this is a group I have been a part of for nearly 10 years, the majority of which were before my r/s with the ex started.  Most of those years were fairly 'normal' as she and I had little contact.  What I know in hindsight is that there was/is a tremendous amount of dysfunction that lurked beneath the surface of a what appeared to be a very prominent, successful group and unfortunately as it rose to the surface I was simply too enmeshed and ill-equipped to make healthy decisions for myself.   I mourn deeply the loss of the r/s with the kids but unfortunately they are innocent collateral.  I also mourn the loss of my friend the H and his declining health is heartbreaking but inevitable.  However I believe time, along with keen insight in my own recovery will ferret all the rest out.

Hi nona, I'm very sorry for what you're going through.  Knowing what I know know about BPD and my own involvement in a BPD r/s I have extra empathy for people who had to endure it in marriage.   What are you doing to maintain a healthy reality when the toxicity level gets too high?

I found the validation I received by talking with a safe, objective third party to discuss my r/s with was/is crucial to my detachment and recovery.  And the more 'incestuous' (aka the 'cluster ___' of people you describe) the people surrounding the r/s are the further you (and I) tumble away from healthy reality and down, down the rabbit hole.

So what can I do in the future to prevent this in new r/s's with people in my life?  Most importantly relearning and maintaining boundaries allows us to be able to determine what people are "safe" for us to disclose intimate details about our lives with.  This is something I plan to explore in greater detail in therapy and recovery.  'Secrets', the keeping of them, spreading of them, the notion of soft lies and omissions do nothing but erode our healthy sense of self and ultimately destroy the healthy tissue that allows good relationships to thrive.  So rediscovering that balance I think is key.

And yes, we do become hostage to them but the hardest thing to realize is that ultimately you and I hold the key.