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So our divorce was final a few months ago and we started with a PC.  Right away my exH was honest and told her about his mental health issues.  She spoke with his therapist.  We have had two meetings with her.  So that was good.  She is not very diplomatic and seemed to side with me a lot, which upset exH.  But she is strong willed and pretty good.

Now exH won't go to our next meeting and wants to cancel her and find another one.

Our divorce agreement says we have to pick a PC, stay for 6 months, and comply with the retainer agreement.

I've narrowed my choices to 2 options:

1) Tell him no.  I want to stick with current one.  He probably won't go back, so that would allow me to bring it up down the road if I think we need one, or if I want to say he's in contempt on a few things.  I don't have the money to go to court over it right now, but may someday.

2)  Tell him ok as long as he picks one of the next two people I recommend.  I do have two others I think would be good.  However, obviously he can't keep rejecting all of them - that's not acceptable.  Has to pick one of the two and stick with it.

He gave a suggestion of a guy whose retainer is $7,000.  The guy seems pretty good, but if I spend that money (by maxing credit cards), I won't have it for other court stuff I may need in the future (I always worry I may need to get a psych eval of husband down the road).

I don't want to think about money - I want to think about my kids.  But I do need some money for emergencies.

I am strongly leaning toward choice number 2.

Livedandlearned asked what my goals are.  One is to have someone familiar with both of us who understands the situation and knows the courts too, just in case my exH does something like stops seeing his T, cancels our kids' doc appointments, other nonsense.  That person could testify in court or tell my exH to knock it off or whatever.  Right now my x is seeing his T a lot and things seem under control, but anything can happen. I'd rather not have only lawyers to consult when things go bad.  Lawyers can be self serving and aren't counselors.   My other goal is to have someone to help us figure out the right things to do in the future, even if it's how to talk to our kids about divorce some day.

exH gets triggered and does things out of spite so that's why it helps me to have a PC.  BUT I am thinking that in a year, the kids are older and I may have more money. 

My conundrum:  Part of me thinks if we drop the PC now then I can ask the court to appoint one in a year.  But I also risk having to go to court to do it, whereas now I can at least have someone in place.  I think it's best to have someone now.

I think I've mostly figured this one out.  Have to try to clue my lawyer in.  Wondering if there are any pitfalls I'm missing.

Whaa? Wow. $7,000. This seems outrageous. My PC retainer for a one-year contract was $1,800. She was a PhD and trained other PCs, and was considered by the courts to be the best in the system.


The reason there are PCs is because court doesn't want parents running to court every time there's a disagreement. I would be concerned that the court looks at your case, sees that you switched PCs once or twice, and thinks that you seem to have a handle on it.

What you could do is insist on sticking with PC as per the order. It's in an order, it's a boundary, your ex has no compelling reason to deviate from it, and he participated in choosing the current PC. Insist on the boundary, then he of course does not cooperate. So... . then you go to court, and your lawyer says, "Your honor, it says we have to stick with the PC for 6 months. We did. He is in contempt. My client paid the retainer and is out a bunch of money. Retainer for a new PC is $7K, which my client does not have. Make him cooperate. If he cannot cooperate, then my client wants legal decision-making or sole legal." Then the court says, "Mr. Momtara, you gotta pay the remaining retainer so that momtara isn't footing a bill that you're walking out on, and court will order a new PC. If you don't participate in court-ordered PC, then momtara gets default decision-making." Then after you do that for a while, you file for sole legal custody (if that's how it works in your state).

Something like that.

Excellent suggestion.  Thank you. 

Regarding money, unfortunately, I live in a state with wealthy people and high retainers.  Life would be grand if PC's were $1800 around here! 

Some of your suggestions don't work in my case.  H has no money, although I could still use the threat of him spending money to my advantage.  I'd like sole decision making, but I have physical custody for 88 percent of the time so I make most decisions anyway. 

But the other stuff is good food for thought.  Thank you.

Court can be very objective about things. If your ex doesn't have money to pay retainer, court doesn't care. He doesn't like the PC? Then he has to pay the difference and come up with the new retainer. He still doesn't have the money? Then momtara gets all decision-making. He is being difficult, you are trying to accommodate him. Court would see him being difficult, and would not accommodate him. He is a grown up, they would hold him to that standard. You are in a good position -- you're the mom, you have 88% custody, the PC gets it, your ex has been diagnosed, he's living with his parents, and has no job. You just need to get clear about your goals, and figure out the best strategy.

Just following some of the stories of people who have passed through here, clear goals lead to better outcomes. Not always, because there are bad judges, but most of the time clear goals = good outcomes. You go into court and you bring your A game, and spell out a clear plan for the judge, who looks at the documentation, listens to the experts, and recognizes that you have thought this through. You hand the judge what you think is best for the child, and judge sees that you have your act together, are consistent, know what's best for the kids, don't waver from your goals, and judge finds you credible and solid.

 


A clear goal would be: Ex might interfere with medical decisions. Goal: to have legal custody of them.

Option #1 - Follow the court order for the specified time. Don't start accommodating his whims and preferences - it's FAR too early in the game to set that type of precedent.

I agree, you already have a pc and he already went. If he wants to change than he should shoulder the difference in the money. That is his choice to make. Otherwise follow what you are already doing. He is in contempt if he doesn't go. Make sure you are documenting all of this. Times, dates, etc. If he doesn't have any money than why is he suggesting a new pc with a $7,000 retainer. Answer, to drag things out as much as possible. That is a reasonable conclusion. Courts want reasonable answers. You don't have to give the answer. He has to give the reasonable answer since he wants the change. They will figure it out or ex will have to come up with a reasonable answer.

If you can , talk to your atty and find out if the contempt charge can be done pro se with some guidance. This will lower your cost. the first time I did something pro se I was very intimidated. However, I had everything in writing and followed my script. The court sided with me for the most part. I've been pro se a few times. It's a lot of work and you have to make sure everything is filled out correctly and also filed on time and in the right sequence. YOu may be able to go to a womans help group for assistance. My ex used them in the beginning. She stopped when they figured her out.

This is a time for firm boundaries, not just for him but for you too.  This is an excellent opportunity to dig in your heels and say No, we stick with this PC.  In his perception, your reasonableness, niceness, accommodating style, etc all equate to weakness and virtually invite him to push for more and more concessions.  Not only do you not want him getting used to you relenting for his every demand, but you can't afford a new PC.  And... . you have in mind possibly 3 PCs you could use.  Why discard one, a good one, after just a few months?  What will you do when you've used all three, then what, go back to the first or work your way down the PC list of rejects?

If he still refuses to attend?  Proceed without him.  If he ought to be informed of the outcome then ask the PC to notify him of the topics and decisions made in his absence.

In other words, the unspoken but clear message to him is, "Tough!  Man up, this is post-marriage life.  This is the way it is and the way it has to be."  Any vacillation and he will be dismantling your progress bit by bit.

How do I say it?  Be one tough cookie.  Not mean or angry, just tough and firm.

All very good ideas.  Thank you!

The pro se suggestion is a good one.  I think a judge would be happy to make sure we have a PC.  It's not like I'm asking for much.

My ultimate goal would not be sole decision making because I have most of that power already.  But I guess when the kids get older, it might be a good thing to have?  They are very young now so it's easier to make decisions.  I think it might just make him feel powerless regarding his own kids, take away the perception he has of involvement.  So I don't know for sure that I need that.  This is BPD, after all, and perceptions matter to him.  

My concern about not giving in is... . that forces my hand.  If he refuses to go, then I either have to go into court, or do nothing and be without a PC.  If I give him another choice, at least we have a pc for 6 months and if he rejects her too, then it looks worse for him.

The PC's name isn't in our final settlement.  It just says we need a pc for at least 6 months.  We chose this one, went twice, and now he wants out.  If her name was in there, then I definitely wouldn't be backing down, but it's not as cut and dried.

I guess I have to be strong.  I am going to email my L later.  I think I am fine with either direction, but you've all given me good ideas on being firm about this.  

You're all gonna get mad at me, but I do worry that by not compromising a little, he could be the same way to me someday.  In the world of family court, you never know when the tables will get turned.

ok, weighing some pluses and minuses:

Option 1:  Telling him we're sticking with the current one no matter what.

Pluses:  Leaves him in contempt if he rejects her.  Saves me money on a new PC.  Down the road, I can bring this up in court to get a PC if we need one even more then.  And who knows, maybe it means he'll stick with this one.

Minuses:  Means we may be without a PC.  And it puts burden on me to go to court to get another one.

Option 2:  Giving him one more chance with a new one.

Pluses:  Likely gets us a PC for a little while longer.  May not have to deal with court.  If he quits next PC, shows an even greater pattern. 

Minuses:  Costs me more, throws away another PC choice, and if he complies and this one likes him, this one could even contradict the last one.

Third option:  Spend money I don't have and get a $3500 retainer one appointed by court (who will likely go thru 2+ retainers in one year, as around here, many of them are $350 an hour).  May have to wait on this option.

No, not mad, you're thinking and pondering your options, that's a good thing.  However, if the roles were ever reversed, don't imagine that your being nice now would be reciprocated later.  Reciprocity is a rare event and if it happens then it usually comes with strings attached.

Rather than seeking sole custody, does your state allow tie-breaker status?  It means you still involve him in major decisions but if he won't agree then you are the tie-breaker.  Decision-making is similar but I believe it leans more toward you making the decision first and then informing him.  Either method reduces the time in court, in mediation or consulting with a PC.

Yeah, I'm with everybody else here - and frankly this isn't a complicated question in my view.  Stick with the professional who was appointed by the court.  If the other party bails - violating the court order - you stick to what is right - keep working with the PC - don't even give your ex a hint that you might consider dropping her.

The only way you should agree to drop the PC is if you really think she is not doing an acceptable job, and you and your ex both agree who will take her place.  If you both decide that someone else would be better - if you yourself really think the change is best - then go for it - ask the court to approve the change.

But don't give in a single inch if you think the current PC is doing an OK job.  If your ex quits coming to the meetings, that's his choice - you keep coming to the meetings and working with the PC constructively.  Do what is best for the child, not what will appease your ex.

Problem is, she wasn't appointed by the court.  We just had in our settlement agreement that we pick A pc together and go to one for at least 6 months.  IF the court picked her, then yeah, it'd be an easy answer for me.  Already, I am paying 100 percent for her so it may look like she's biased. 

The thought I had this morning is that if I do go back to court to get one appointed, then I am in the court system again and he and his lawyer can ask for other stuff.  I know I shouldn't let myself be governed by fear, though. 

I kind of compromised with my settlement in the end and made the part about a PC a little toothless.  And frankly, I was worried we'd get a bad one - that's why I put in that we get one for just 6 months.  Now that I know they (at least this one) see the obvious, I am not as worried - but there are still bad ones out there, I imagine, and clueless ones who'd be swayed by my exH.

Just tell him you are following the court order for the 6 month period. The fact that the original choice of PC was up to the two of you is really irrelevant - that's done. You are now fulfilling the CO of having that PC for 6 months. I agree with Matt... . go to meetings by yourself if he chooses not to participate, then get a report at the end of the period to submit to court.

The court order says the both of you have to pick a pc, you both did, and go for 6 months, you are and he has to make a choice whether to follow the order and the agreement between the two of you. If he doesn't he needs a reasonable reason why. The fact that you are paying 100% can be contested as bias but he wants to spend $7,000 that you do not have. Let him say he thinks there is bias. Don't you mention it at all. If he wants to spend the $7,000 get it in writing with a specific time frame. Otherwise follow the court order as you already are.

Alternative, continue going for 6 months to the already agreed upon pc. After that he can cough up the $7,000 for another pc after this one is over. This would give you a pc for a longer duration and also give him what he says he wants. A win/win for everyone.

I have found that making a boundary and sticking to it, as long as it makes sense for the kids, works best in the long run. There may be some flak in the beginning but that is short lived.

Ok, thanks everyone - great advice.

My L seems fine with either direction, but she asked what happens if he dumps the next one.  If he did that, I would not agree.

I guess I have to think about it this weekend and decide.

There are two things that give you traction in court. One is when a disordered spouse does something to negatively impact the kids. The other is when a disordered spouse is unreasonable, or does not comply with the order. That's why there is such a thing as "contempt of court." A lot of judges get even more irritated when the parties consented to something because it's even more unreasonable to not comply with what you consented to!

Your order says pick a PC and stick with that PC for 6 months. That is not a toothless statement unless you make it toothless. If it's in the order, and he doesn't comply, then it's contempt of court. Period.

This is what's causing you problems:




You think you have power right now, but your kids are young -- you haven't encountered legal decision-making yet. The day-to-day decisions you're making right now are entirely different than legal decisions. Your kids are young and you haven't had to do anything that requires his permission. When your ex put the baby on the floor and said he dropped her, he's just warming up. He knows that if something is important to you (ie. the kids), and he blocks a decision you make, he gets a reaction. If your kids need therapy, or you want to change schools, or get a psycho-educational test for a learning disability, or one of them gets sick and you and your ex disagree about treatment, you have no power. There is a hornet's nest of laws coming up as soon as your kids hit school. If you aren't clear about why you need sole decision making, then you're headed for 15+ years of paying for PCs or years of high-conflict decision-making.

Precisely my concern.  I don't think you should risk losing this PC before the term/appointment expires.


So being so compliant.  Like with drugs, Just Say No!

Also, if you do drop the PC at his instigation and later in court you complain about continuing problems, how would you respond if the judge asks, "Then why did you let him scuttle the first PC with nary a whimper?"


An appropriately blunt prediction of a future you could but shouldn't enable.  If you are ever gifted the opportunity for decision-making or tie-breaker, then take it and keep it, it will save you immense grief and financial expense in the years to come!

Reminds me of my Trial Day, after nearly two years obstructing and delaying our divorce case, I was greeted with the new that morning that finally ex was ready to 'settle'.  I was willing to be reasonable on nearly everything - we nons are reasonable to a fault - EXCEPT Residential Parent.  She literally begged me with tears to continue as RP.  I said, "No, either I will be RP or we start the divorce trial."  Even my lawyer pooh-poohed it and joined her lawyer insisting RP didn't anything.  But that seemingly little thing was my #1 settlement term, the settlement hinged on that.  And I got it. *)  And the month after the final decree my lawyer was proven wrong when ex got our son kicked out of kindergarten just 5 weeks before the end of the school year. I was notified they had rejected my open enrollment application to let him finish the year there and I was given ONE DAY to get him registered in my school district.   Frankly, if she remained as RP then they would have been stuck with her and her recurring antics.  But I had become RP and they dumped her because they could.  I have been in charge of school matters ever since, to my son's benefit.

In other words, it's just fine if you declare the PC issue to be Non-Negotiable.

Yeah - I'm with everybody else - the order says 6 months, and you believe the PC is OK, so stick with her - don't even hint to your ex that you might give in.  If you do, you will reinforce his behavior, and he'll never comply with the court orders.

To be frank, I think it might be a good idea to get some counseling - as I did, and many others here - to help you discover more about your own thought processes and how they are contributing to the problems.  I'm not suggesting that you have a "problem" like a psych disorder, or that you are equally at fault for these struggles.  But most of us find out that we have fallen into some bad thought processes that keep us mired in the bad relationship, even after divorce.

If you do that, and work on whatever co-dependency or other issues you might have, I think in a year or two you'll look back and this, and go ":)uh." - struggling with a decision that should be pretty simple - there's a court order, and the PC is doing a good job, so you work with her, at least for 6 months, and longer if you decide that is best for the kids.

By the way - and please don't take this the wrong way - I'm sure if somebody looked back at my posts when I was where you are, they would see the same thing - if you look through this thread, at your own posts, I think you'll see that you mention your ex many times, but hardly ever refer to the kids, or discuss what is best for them.  I'm not doubting that you want what's best for them.  But when we are in these screwed-up relationships, with screwed-up people, we can become so confused and focused on figuring out how to deal with someone who doesn't think clearly, that we lose track of what should be our primary focus - the kids.  Anybody that knows me would be rolling their eyes right now, at what a hypocrite I am, because this was a huge problem for me, and many others here too I think.  So I'm not pointing the finger at you, I'm telling you what I think is a very, very common problem we have, after some time trying to make a relationship work, and not being able to figure out how to do it - we get in the habit of constantly trying to figure out what to do, so the other party in the relationship - even after you're divorced - will be easier to deal with.

The solution is to shift your focus onto the kids' needs, and your own too, and minimize the focus you put onto your ex and his behavior.  Get as much distance as possible, and decide on some basic approaches that seem to work, and stick with them, and if he doesn't like it, that's his problem not yours.

I'm not saying you should put a thumb in his eye, or do things to make him mad - that's staying involved with him too.  I'm suggesting you look for every possible way to get distance from him - literally and emotionally.  And those interactions with him that are necessary or you think are in the kids' interests - like meeting with the PC - do it in a businesslike way - clearly, unemotionally, focused on results and on how the kids will be impacted.

From that perspective, this isn't a complicated question.  You agreed to the PC because you believed it would be best for the kids, so you follow through with it.  And he agreed to it to, so it's his responsibility to do what he committed to, and to comply with the court order.

Pretty simple, but it's harder if you're still focused on his behavior and trying to make things better with him.  That will never work, as I think you know better than anybody by now... .

Thanks.  This is a healthy discussion in a lot of ways.

Livedandlearned, you wrote, "If your kids need therapy, or you want to change schools, or get a psycho-educational test for a learning disability, or one of them gets sick and you and your ex disagree about treatment, you have no power."

Is that really true that I have no power?  I have residential custody, and generally that means tie breaker status in my state.  Let's say one of them does need therapy, and we disagree.  Would I have to go to court to ask for it, do you think?  A judge might grant it if the experts were all for it, right?

Our parenting agreement says we have to 'consult' on educational decisions, not agree. 

But yes, I think it will be a different ballgame when the kids are older and can tell him what's happening and can try to resist my decisions.  I suppose things will get more complicated then.

I have been firm about some things - like not changing visitation.  I have the kids most of the time.  He may try to change that someday, but not now.

In my state, tie-breaker status (called decision-making in my state) is not the same as sole legal. When you say,
, what does "generally" apply to? I guess I don't understand why you wanted a PC if you had decision-making... . ? Unless it was to have someone who could eventually testify on your behalf?

My understanding of tie-breaker is that your ex could go to court to have your decision overruled. So a scenario could be that one of your Ds needs therapy, your ex says no, you take her anyway, ex takes you to court to overrule. You spend $3K to dismiss it. Having sole legal would mean he could not have the judge overrule you.

I wanted a PC to help us communicate on kid issues better, to have someone who (yes) could testify if needed, and to kind of monitor the situation in general.  I feel like I shouldn't be dealing with a mentally ill co parent on my own, although obviously at times I have to.   I feel like already I feel more empowered.  And she talked to his therapist to clue him on on what's going on.  Otherwise, he wouldn't know.

I wonder if a judge would really agree with a parent who tried to deny their child counseling?  I could see, though, my H going to the school or doctor and telling them not to do something.  The school or doc might listen to him.  So that's an issue.  If that started happening, I guess I could then ask for sole decision making or go to court or ask for a new pc. 

Does your ex have an attorney?

Sometimes you (or your attorney) can get the other party's attorney to talk sense to him.

I think having a professional like a PC involved is a good idea, and not something you should give up on.

Do you communicate with your ex by e-mail, or phone, or face-to-face?  I found it much better to use e-mail almost all the time, because it leaves a record, so my ex knows if she acts out it won't be a secret - I will share it with whoever I decide should know about it, like our parenting coach, or even the court if it comes to that.  When I shifted from phone to e-mail, and then copied some of the e-mails to neutral third parties, her behavior improved - she may not be any healthier but she at least fakes it most of the time now.

You already have a new PC, what improvement is it to get a new PC?  It is a given conclusion that if the next PC is a good one too then your ex won't like him/her either and will just quit participating just as he has threatened to do now.  Sounds like more money spent, fewer good PCs left available and no real progress.  Accommodating him or his refusals is not a good strategy.  You'll run out of PCs before he runs out of obstructions.

Time to review and update your strategy?

You aren't using a PC for any specific legal goals. Is that right? You seem to be ok with what you have going right now. Residential parent, tie-breaker status, 88% visitation, plus a PC to basically keep an eye on things.

Then the issue about changing PCs is very clearly about your boundaries. You have decision-making, you're the residential parent. That is not ambiguous at all. Your order says agree on a PC for 6 months. Not ambiguous. He wants a different PC. The answer is no. Not ambiguous. Save your money for court when you need it for something real. Continue to go to your PC, continue insisting that your ex attend and participate. You then have documentation that you stuck to the order and he didn't. Every time your ex obstructs something, report it to the PC, build more documentation.

I think you need to figure out emotionally and psychologically what is going on for you with this decision. Like Matt said, a lot of us here have similar tendencies, and those tendencies fuzz up our thinking and make things so much harder than they need to be. Especially early on. Without counseling, you linger in this grey zone a lot longer, trying to figure out a strategy from a fuzzy stuck place, instead of a clear place of strength. Put some of the $7K toward healing whatever this is. You're worth it! And it will make you a better parent to your girls.

Thanks.

Someone mentioned a parenting coach.  I tried to find one of those, but didn't, so I ended up with a PC.  A counselor would have been ok too, but exH rejected it.

My concern with just saying no to exH is that he just won't participate, and then we don't have anyone really helping, whereas he said if we switched, he'd continue to go to monthly sessions.  So I have to weigh if it's best for the kids for me to take a stand, or just try to switch one time.  I am giving myself the weekend to decide.  I know he will go if we switch - he does usually stick to his word. 

I know I have to separate my fears from what is right to do, and I will.

I've been writing drafts of an email to exH to tell him I want to stick to the PC.  However, I am having this thought - if he doesn't go back, that's kinda it for now.  Then we kinda don't have anyone.  If I tell him I'll agree to switch if he picks this other one, then at least we get a new one for six months.  And that person may be even better.

I keep going back and forth on this.  I just have to set a deadline and decide.  It isn't easy.  I know it seems like it should be a no brainer, but there are nuances to every situation, and consequences.

Also, contrary to what someone said, my xH actually does try to play fair if I beg and beg him for something.  So I guess a little part of me wants to do the same for him, so that he plays fair later.    But this issue may not be a good one to compromise on.  I don' tknow.

This other PC I have in mind is affordable and pretty good too.  But yeah, it will cost me money to switch and start over.  (Not as much as going to court.)

I really hate dealing with PC's because that means I have to deal with my dysregulated exH even more for appointments and stuff.  I am doing it ultimately for the insight and for the kids.  Wish I knew the best thing.

If he refuses to go to monthly sessions, that shows how he is behaving as a parent... . for the courts, if you have to go back.

I gotta say... . changing PC's because this one is reasonable and agrees with you most of the time and your ex doesn't like it is a bad idea. If you change, I see three possible outcomes

1. New PC is good, sees what your ex is up to, and mostly agrees with you. (Likely he will want to bail/change again)

2. New PC isn't so good, and gives you grief by siding with your ex.

3. A good bit of delay while New PC comes up to speed and then outcome #1 or #2.

I fail to see how this could benefit your kids at all... . and at best it will just cost you money. For some reason I'm discounting the possibility that he will behave reasonably and better with a new PC. Do you have a reason to believe he will do something different?

I don't think he will dump the new one, although he may well want to.  He will have to keep going or it looks doubly bad for him.  He said he'd go to 4 sessions with a new one, and I think he will, judging from past experience with him keeping his word.  He doesn't realize that you don't really have to go to monthly sessions with a PC; she's not a therapist.  So I may get more out of him, get him to work wit h me better, out of a new one.  This one we have is aggressive and doesn't mince words, so he'll be relieved with anyone else, I think.   The other one I have in mind seems pretty good too.  So that's a chance I may not want to give up, but maybe I will. 

Reality check, but a kind one, really.

He doesn't like the PC?  Tough, it's only for a few more months.  He's not a kid to be coddled and you choosing an alternate just so he *might* attend isn't a good strategy.  Is HE willing to foot the entire bill for swapping PCs?  Yeah, I thought not.  Let him b!tch about it for a few more months.  Life won't end if you stick with this PC.

Many here have been "around the block" often enough to see some red-flag red flags red-flag from him and from you.  You're looking for a 'fix' where there is NO assured fix.  You've already stated you don't even have the money for switching.  Just hang in there a few more months.  Meanwhile, have you made any progress with getting yourself a good counselor - for yourself?  Why do I suggest that?  Because, though you've come to trust us as good peer support, not one member has posted here saying "yeah, great idea, do that!"  Ponder that.  We're on the outside looking in.  On the one hand, we don't know every aspect of your situation.  On the other hand, we're not emotionally involved, can be more objective and see you're grasping at straws, expensive ones.

If you had a friend who had your situation, think, what would you tell that friend?  Hmm?

For example, you're about 2 months into the 6 month monthly visits?  What is so very urgent to be handled in the next 3-4 months that you have to abandon the court ordered 6 month term, choose another PC and put yourself into several thousands of debt than you can't afford?  Let the outcome develop on its own.  Don't jump in the puddle and muddy it all up.  Just sit back and watch how it all plays out.  Please.  Remember too, you may need those other two PCs in the 15+ years to come, don't burn through them in the first year.  Meanwhile work on yourself and the children.

I agree that we may need more PC's some day.

I am just trying to perhaps have one without going to court.  But you're right, there's really nothing that could happen in the next 6 months.  It's summer, nothing's going on.

That said, a new pc could be someone who would recommend things like, hey, you guys should go to therapy with the kids, or extend my services for 2 years, or something else.  It'd be another person who knows the situation.  Even if he were to stop after 6 months, she would be another person to ask advice from about future situations.  The one we have now really alienated him.  A new one may not agree with him but might have a diffeernt style.  I know that sounds naive but I know the nuances of my exH too.

I don't have the money but it'd be a thousand or two, not as much as going to court.

I *am* listening to what you all are telling me!  I am just trying to make sure I am making the right decision for everyone.  That's why I'm looking at all the options here.

I do have a therapist I have seen before, and can go back to him.  Although maybe I should get one who is skilled in kid stuff and divorce and maybe that could be a person to help the situation too.  Although it takes a while to find a good one.

I'm just using this time to think this all through.  Maybe I can go to my therapist and talk about it too.

One of the worst things about codependent thinking is that you become totally, entirely fixated on what the other person is doing. If I do x, then he will do y. If I do y, he will do x. You think you are controlling the other person, but the truth is that the other person is controlling you. There is no nuance to this -- it's a classic, straightforward codependence/BPD dynamic. It's the Big Lesson about dealing with BPD. You break free from codependent thinking when you stop focusing on him, and start focusing on the boundaries. That means looking at the contract he consented to, that the courts signed off on, and sticking to it. Your ex gives you just enough hope that you can't unhook.

This is not easy stuff, momtara. It's the big stuff, the hardest of all. Not the decision about whether to keep the PC or not, but the decision to stand by boundaries. There's more to it than just the boundaries, but sometimes you have to start with boundaries in order to understand the rest of it.


The best decisions I have ever made with N/BPDx are the ones where he experiences the consequences for his behavior.

Lots of good stuff here - insights that are no doubt benefiting other members who are reading along but not posting on this thread.  

These are really tough issues that most of us go through and struggle with - it took me many years to get to the point of even being able to see this stuff in my own situation, and even longer to learn to deal with it.

Counseling and this community made all the difference for me - I can see things clearly now that I was stuck in before and couldn't see the forest because all the trees got in the way... .

I know I'm pretty codependent.  Yes, I think this discussion is useful on a number of fronts.

More thoughts:  Just doing nothing is kind of what he wants - he won't have to see *any* parenting coordinator for the time being, and he'll like that.

Using the situation as leverage to get another one may be better for the kids.  It's not what I want to do at this point because it means money and it means I have to deal with his dysregulation more, but it's something that at least would have another professional involved without it being a court, a laywer, or a child services person.  So on that front, switching would mean more help coming our way even for a short while.  It's just more professionals seeing his dysfunction (maybe).

Just more thoughts as my decision gets closer. 

One of the big issues we all face is, is there something I can do that will "fix" the other person, or at least help them get help.

Here's my experience on that... .

10 years of marriage ended in mild violence - my wife swung my guitar at my head, but she missed.  Oh and she threw an iron at me, but missed that time too.  Both with the kids around.  Then she called 911 and accused me of assault - we both went to jail - and that was when I got a clue.

We separated but a few months later she proposed counseling and I agreed.  I still wanted to fix the marriage, for the kids.  My thinking was, maybe a counselor could get us onto a healing path.

The first counselor we tried was ineffective and we gave up.  Then my wife - our divorce was on hold at that point - suggested a counselor who worked with the church my wife went to, and I said fine - anybody who has professional credentials.

This lady was very good and insightful.  At our first meeting, she asked us to meet with her individually, and when I met with her, she pulled out a copy of the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association, or something like that), and read to me the part about BPD.   She said, "I'm not qualified to diagnose Mrs. Matt, but she seems to have most of the criteria for BPD.  So you should read 'Stop Walking On Eggshells' and learn about the disorder.", which I did - and that's how I found this community.

Later, we gave up on counseling again, and finished the divorce, and we got a Custody Evaluator - a Ph.D. psychologist who administered the MMPI-2 - objective psych evals - to both of us.  He diagnosed her with BPD and other stuff, and recommended psychotherapy, and that was put into our settlement, which my wife agreed to, and which became a court order.

Flash forward 5 years.  My ex still hasn't acknowledged that she has any psych problems, or gotten therapy, even though if we went back to court that could mean she would lose 50/50 custody of the kids.  She is still depressed and living a pretty sad life compared with what someone of her intelligence and education could have.  Her disorder impacts the kids - they're doing fine but they have to deal with the same kind of BPD stuff we all have experienced.

So my point is... . an intelligent, educated woman who had everything she said she wanted - the husband she wanted, the kids, the career, nice house, some money in the bank, etc. - pretty much gave it all up, and risked even bigger losses, rather than accept that she has a problem and needs help.  Even when it became a court order - and she is in the legal profession, and views judges and the court system as almost holy - but when the court came up against her disorder, she chose the disorder.

We see this again and again - not all, but almost all of our members - very few of the people we know with BPD ever make the choice to get the help they need, and stay with it.  The disorder usually wins, even when there are big consequences and even when getting help would be easy.  (It would not have cost my ex a penny, for example.)

So... . if you make decisions based on what will help the person with BPD - what will encourage him to act right, or what will give him a way to move forward - it may be a kind gesture, but usually it just doesn't work.

I know.  That's a lot of good insight and I'm glad to hear your story.  But that's kind of what I'm saying - sticking to the order and sticking with our current PC, which everyone recommends, is also going to end up being what he wants because he just won't go.  If I use this as leverage to get another professional involved, he may go and it will benefit the kids because that's one more person watching and one more who can testify.  I'm realizing that maybe telling him we're just sticking with this one is not as bold as I thought, because he just won't go anymore.  

My exH *is* getting regular therapy, has acknowledge his mental illness.  I went to see his shrink with him at one point and he acknowledged it to the shrink.  He is still manipulative and dysregulated when triggered, and says things that aren't true.  Sometimes he believes them.  Our PC sees all this.

Yeah, I know I am close to the situation (just got divorced a few months ago) so I am still codependent and probably partly in the FOG.  Ultimately I am here to get perspective and I have gotten some good perspective.  In the end, I want to do not the easy thing, but the thing that helps the kids most.  I don't always know what that is.  

Getting another PC involved may help because it's another professional I could call on in teh future in a court situation or other situation.  Or just someone to give more perspective.  Or... . it may just not do either and waste money.  I just don't know.

The current one has given me a lot of what I want already - talked to our professionals, gave us perspective on the kids, gave recommendations, knows my exH makes up things, talked to his therapist.  I could walk away satisfied that we at least got something good out of it.  But I have to figure out if another PC would also help.

Maybe your ex is different, but in my experience with N/BPDx, the problem is that he only wants what I don't want. No matter what that is. Even if what I want benefits N/BPDx, he won't want it because I do. That's the carnival ride most of us are on when we arrive here. That BPD tendency -- obstructing abc because it's something you want -- it's the most predictably unpredictable feature of BPD.

I don't know that there is a right answer for you with this PC, mainly because you can't predict the future. There's no way to answer this, not given what you are most concerned about. But if you do decide to get a new PC, you have seen at least the beginning of the pattern (although, there is a good chance this is a much longer-running pattern... . ) You can't be surprised if he bails on the second PC.

Honestly, I don't think it will do you a lick of good to change PC's.  You're reacting to his BPD drama/crazy making and trying to soothe him by switching.  Nothing's going to soothe him though.  He'll find something wrong with the next one.  And he'll find something else to make crazy about after that.  It's what BPD's do.

Better to set a boundary for yourself that won't be sucked into the drama anymore.  The current PC sounds like a good, solid pro.  Those are hard to find in high conflict cases.  Your PC is working out for YOU and the kids.  That's all that matters.  Let your BPDxh do what he does, let it not work for him.  It's not your job to fix it for him.  It's his job to get his act together and get with the program of seeing to the best interest of the kids.  Leave it to him.

Just my humble opinion of course.

Thanks to you all for responding to such a long thread.

Question:  Have any of you gotten a PC well after the divorce?  Did you go to court to do it?

Just wondering how hard that is.

I feel like at least I have a little leverage now.  Once we don't have a PC, we are kinda on our own.

Not exactly.  I asked, as part of our settlement, that the court appoint a "parenting coach" - the normal term was "mediator" but I suggested we look at it as coaching not combat, and that it be a psychologist.  Our Custody Evaluator recommended someone from his office and we both agreed to that.

We had a few meetings and resolved a few issues.

Then about a year later, I needed to move to a different town for work.  I offered to take the kids, and if/when my ex wanted to move, I would pay her moving costs plus some more.  She didn't agree - as LnL said, she was opposing me just to oppose me, since she wasn't working and the move was to a town she had always preferred, closer to her family - so I said, "Let's discuss it with Dr. ParentingCoach." and we did - several sessions - accomplished nothing, although he was a skilled and persistent guy.

I had to bring it to closure - it was time to register the kids for school - so I told her, with Dr. PC there, "Let's agree on this today, or I'll have to file tomorrow for full custody, and I'll be obligated to disclose everything I know which is relevant, and that might lead to criminal charges against you."  She quickly agreed and the problem was solved - not by reason or by negotiation or by Dr. PC's skills, but by what a friend of mine described as "bullying" - giving her a couple of bad choices and letting her choose the least bad.

It's unfortunate but this is the kind of process that tends to work when you're dealing with someone who doesn't think straight.

I am really confused, momtara. You have a court order that says "parties must agree to a PC and stick with it for 6 months."  You already have that. Plus, you have tie-breaker status. Plus, you are the residential parent. Plus, you don't want sole custody. And your ex, by wanting to ditch the current PC, is technically in contempt of court. Doesn't matter whether the language came straight from the two of your, or straight from a judge. It's signed. It's a contract.

What would you gain by having a court assign a PC? You would be going to court to say, "We want a PC." And court would look at your order and say, "Um, you two already have that in the order."

That order that you two consented to has just as much teeth as if a judge said, "Get a PC." Even more so, in some ways, because you two consented to it. It looks even worse to court when two grown adults decided, together, what they want, and then one of them doesn't follow the order.

I think your ex has hooked you pretty good into thinking that he will be reasonable if you can just figure out the right combination of things to appease him.

The only thing you can do is go to the judge with a motion for contempt of court, saying that your ex won't go see the current PC as per the order. Then you have to demonstrate that there are things you cannot do because he won't participate. In my case, the PC got up on the stand, and said, "This guy is impossible. The most impossible, threatening, abusive client I have had and I can't imagine anyone being able to manage him." Then I had to go through all the things I was not able to do for S12 because of N/BPDx obstructing me.

In your case, you already have tie-breaker status. So the judge would want to know why you are insisting on a PC. What decision has ex obstructed? How has it affected the kids?

Well there is another option - the point of my vague, rambling story... .

You can say to Ex, "We both agreed to this and it was put into the court order so we are both legally obligated to do it.  So I will continue to meet with Ms. PC as planned.  If you don't do what you agreed to do, I will ask the court to have you declared in contempt, and to end your contact with the kids, til you are in compliance."

I would do that face-to-face only with the PC present;  or if he doesn't show up, by e-mail, cc:ing your attorney and his.  Then stop - do nothing and let him decide.  If he mans up and complies with the court order, great.  (Of course he might show up to the meetings and not take part - passive-aggressive - and that might be the best you can get.)  Or if he in fact violates the court order, you have to follow through and inform the court so appropriate action can be taken.  The court is not likely give him severe consequences;  in fact I would be surprised if he will be declared in contempt at first.  It's more likely the judge will say, "You need to comply with this order or I can hold you in contempt."

As to LnL's other question - "Why do you need a PC?" - it's a good one.  I have 50/50 so I believed it would be important to have a rational tie-breaker, and it did help in a few situations.  But if I had tie-breaking authority I think I would tell my ex some times, "I'm going to do X.", and if she disagreed, I would listen to what she says - maybe she would have some good points - but if she didn't persuade me I would thank her for her thoughts and then go ahead and do what I believed best for the kids.  Maybe that's an approach that will work for you... . ?

And to clarify... . I understand you want someone monitoring your ex's behavior, and that's totally valid. My point is about PCs and court, how a judge is likely to look at it. Court sees PCs as improving communications between parents, and also as a way of keeping parents out of court (especially if parents are joint legal, no tie-breaker status). PCs are not used to monitor a parent's behavior, that's just something people like us do, usually for documentation, or to get someone on board who could potentially testify. From that perspective, it makes sense why you want a PC, but that probably won't make sense to a court that is a bit tone deaf to issues of mental illness.

The bottom line, too, is that court is not going to care about your ex's behavior unless it has a direct negative impact on the kids. To some extent, like Matt says, court might care that your ex is in non-compliance. (You might ask your lawyer if your court would take away visitation if he is non-compliance with the PC. I don't think that would fly in my court, but every court is different.) In my court, I had to show how N/BPDx's non-compliance with the PC had a negative impact on S12. It certainly helped having a PC feel threatened by N/BPDx, but I was going for sole legal, and had a higher bar to clear.

I bet you're getting sick of all this 

Ha ha, livedandlearned - I'm not sick of your very helpful replies.  I *am* sick of all the tough decisions I have to make that he forces me into.  Ugh.  I have spent hours thinking about this every day.  What a nightmare.  I don't think either option will make a huge difference, just a little one, but every bit helps.  One main thing I have gotten out of my PC is that she has the power to talk to collateral sources.  It's good for me to know what my exH's psych is thinking.  It's good for her to tell his doc what's really going on.  Those are things I can't do myself.

My question was because I feel like in 3 years we'll need a PC when the kids are older.  It's just hard dealing with him sometimes.  That's why I was wondering if people ever get PC's apointed later.  Maybe a mediator would be an option then, although they can't testify if it came to it, so that bothers me.

I also admit that I just hate when he's mad, so yes, having a PC helps me feel stronger when I oppose him.  I have to be careful how I phrase things to him.  I get more that way.  And he still has the kids, even if only a little bit, so I want to make sure he feels included so he is a better parent when with them.  A PC monitoring the situation in 3 years may be useful.

I have a small window to hook him into getting another PC, or to just force him to stick with this one, who he won't go to.  I guess I'll try not to catastrophize and realize that it won't be the end of the world either way I go.  But it's still a tough decision and it still could have implications, even small.  `

As the kids get older, what may be more important than a PC is that they have their own counselor - not somebody to fix their dad, but somebody to help the kids learn how to cope with a dad who has the issues he has.

Another aspect of "Focus on the kids not on the ex!"... .

I get the part where you find that the PC helps. I understand it feels better having someone else involved. I guess the part that I'm having trouble wrapping my head around is your belief that your ex will cooperate. A lot of pwBPD have incredibly high thresholds for defying authority and aren't too swayed by consequences. Your ex already showed you he doesn't follow the court order. And you mentioned you are struggling financially -- $7K is a lot of money to monitor your ex without having a clear idea about what your legal goals are.

The only way I could justify spending that kind of money is if I knew it would lead to a very clear outcome in court. If your goal was to get full custody -- primary physical, sole legal, and supervised visitation, then maybe it would be worth it. Otherwise, you end up paying a lot of money to get yoked around, and things don't improve. You might get some support and direction (which you could also get from a T), but you also risk ending up paying for a PC your ex won't see.

Why not take the route Matt recommends, and get a custody evaluation? Bring in the pros to evaluate things. Now you have a PC and your ex's T seeing things the way you see them. As your PC what his/her professional opinion is about your ex's ability to care for the kids when he moves out on his own. What custody recommendation would they make?

What I found is that the more people who got involved in my case, the more I realized how much FOG was clouding my judgment. When I saw N/BPDx through their eyes, it was so clear that he was seriously unstable. The judge, my lawyer, ex's old lawyer, the PC, my T, S12's T -- everyone saw that N/BPDx was in no way fit to parent. If you order a CE, the evaluators  might discover the same thing, and you'll hear from people who are trained to evaluate custody. They might come back and say, "No way should this guy be supervising the kids without someone else around." It's very unlikely that a CE would suggest rolling back the current custody order. To do that, they would have to discover that you are in some way unfit.

Also, another reason you might want a full CE is that they can make custody recommendations, whereas that's not how it works with a psych eval. If you just ask for a psych eval for your ex, you have some extra work to convince court that those issues impair his parenting. You'll need clear documentation, with clear examples of what he did to put the kids in harm. And you'll need an expert witness to say why BPD impacts the kids in bad ways.

My ex ran away in summer of 2007. In and out of court several times after that. In 2010 ex had me charged with misdemeanor assault. I was convicted of summary offense disorderly conduct. I did nothing wrong but the false allegations put me in a jam. At that time the court ordered a pc for a year. All communication was through email. You had to send an email to the pc and ex stating the issue, the facts as you see it, and what I want the pc to do. Then the other party had to send an email in the same format. The pc then made a ruling. For the most part it kept ex in check. In my opinion it started off okay but eventually ex was able to get some things she wanted because the pc just got tired of hearing the same complaints from ex over and over. I live in Pa. The state supreme court made a ruling in 2011 that pc's can not be used anymore and only a judge can change a custody order in any way. Of course, so can parents if they agree. So all the changes the pc made are now null and void.                                                                Ex actually wanted a pc in 2012 again because I said no to something she wanted which made no sense to me. Back then she used to try to change the court order by changing pick up times by an hour or something else like that. It was trivial and really didn't have any good reason. She was sending several emails on a weekly basis with proposed changes so I simply said no. She threatened to take me back to court if I didn't agree. I stopped replying. I don't know if she talked to her atty or not but she stopped trying to make changes.

Perhaps you can talk to your current pc and tell her what is going on. Explain you have an court order that you want to follow and ex is refusing. Your pc might have a suggestion as to what you can do in your county. It might be best for you to go to a meeting and let the pc to contact ex. This might help if you go to court. Also the pc may be able to get ex to cooperate better than you can.                                                                                                                                   My ex disagrees with everything I suggest just because I suggest it. I was able to get our school to see this and we worked around ex. We, the school and I, would have a meeting and we would come to a decision. I then had the school contact ex with the decision and ex always agreed. As long as I was not part of the decision, in ex's eyes, everything worked fine. The principal actually called me when I first figured this out. He thought I made no sense and I simply asked him to try it out. It worked and nothing worked before. He called me again and said he still didn't understand what was going on but things were working better for our S8, now S10, and that was our plan from then on.

I no longer wish/hope ex gets it and changes her dysfunctional ways. It is what it is and I just have to figure out how to deal with it and and how to help our two boys deal with it. When they get older I suspect they will deal with it the same way their stepbrothers learned to deal with it when they got older: one is total NC and another is very limited LC. I get along with both of them very well. I've been told by several people that know ex that her son that is NC is, in ex's view, a complete ___hole and his fiance is a big b**** and the son that is LC is a big disappointment to her. If our two boys went NC and LC with me I would start thinking about what I did to cause it. I am very different than my ex and that is why we are no longer married. Like Matt said she chose the disorder.

While knowing the common patterns is helpful, sincere 'reciprocity' is atypical in our type of situation.  Maybe he is, as some have phrased it, BPD-lite, but you can't rely on it and it could very easily turn out to work against you.  And begging, well, that can be interpreted as an invitation to the other to feel in control.  Easy for it to backfire.


When I read this, I was reminded of a comment others have made here:  Don't let the ex rent space in your head and especially not free rent.


Consequences - a part of life and especially adult life.  The ex may not change when facing consequences but when so little does have an effect, it's one of the few tools we have to obtain at least partial results.


It has been said that BPD does have therapy options such as DBT, CBT, etc but the majority of those reaching us here seem to have reached a point - or have such stubborn cases - that relatively few report success in recovery.  Perhaps a lot of the mild cases never became so bad that people found their way here?  I like to think that out there in the entire population that a higher percentage do chip away at their Denial, seek meaningful therapy and make real improvement.  But here we have to deal with whatever we face.

Kids need clear consequences, directly tied to what they did, to teach them that some behaviors are not OK.

Most of us, as adults, learn to do what's right without consequences or threats.  For example, we don't have to be told, "Get to work on time or you'll be fired." - we know that showing up on time is important and if we're late once in a while maybe nobody even says anything.

But someone with BPD has all sorts of problems thinking clearly.  (That can be tough to understand because it's so alien to us - we just can't accept that somebody could go through life acting like that!)

So they may not act right unless they experience some big consequences tied directly to their actions.

Thanks.  David's story made me think of something.  Most of the PC's I interviewed *do* like to work by email.  Our current one does not.  She wants emails to be very short, and anything major, we go in to deal with.  The next one could want to deal with email and not really much else.  And may not be doing what I need, since we're not making any big decisions over the next few months but I do want someone to monitor the situation.  Hmmm, all of these stories are making me consider various points, which is helpful.  I am trying to figure out objectively the right thing, the thing that will help us most, even if it costs $$$.  (And NO I am not getting the $7K one, I'd be getting an inexpensive one I know about who seemed good.)

David's story about having the school contact ex directly about certain things is pretty useful for the future. 

The bigger lesson in David's example is that he doesn't engage. He isn't trying to get his ex to cooperate because he knows she can't (either at all, or inconsistently, it doesn't matter).

Getting to detachment is a process, and you might not be there yet -- everyone gets there on their own time. You probably won't find a more understanding group of people than the ones on this board. During my marriage, I cleaned up my ex's feces after he pooped all over our bedroom during one of his alcoholic binges. Then he yelled at me. We all have our codependent low moments, and that's definitely mine. It took me over two years after that incident to get to detachment.

The important thing is to be honest with yourself. If you get a new PC, be honest that you are appeasing your ex and accommodating him -- it doesn't matter why. There are a lot of rationalizations that fuel codependent behavior. In grown up land, people don't get to behave the way he does, especially when court is involved and custody is at stake. The only reason he gets away acting like this is because someone lets him. If he bails on the next PC, then you take a look in the mirror and say, "I am part of this dynamic." And you look at your role, and figure out whether you want to live like this.

The only thing at stake in deciding whether to get a new PC is you. 

I was found guilty of disorderly conduct and put in prison for two weeks. One of my SS's dropped off personal belongings, laundry detergent, clothes, toothpaste, etc. If you don't get any you have to wait a month to be declared indigent and then it will be given to you. He also picked me up when I got out. That experience got the last remants in my head that coparenting was ever possible. I purchased a video and an audio recorder the next day. I never leave home without them. Detachment is a process liked lnl said.

At least one person said if we go with a new PC, it could backfire.  Do you think this is true?  How?

It occurred to me that my exH said he'd get me a list of potential new PC's, but he has not.  He sent me the one person who is $7,000 and who would do the same things our current one does.  ExH says current one 'overstepped her bounds' but I know that new one would do the same types of things.

I left a message for our existing one informing her of what exH said.  I am curious if she has any thoughts.  A few of the other PC's I interviewed have told me that they will only work by court order, because otherwise, one party tends to try to get out of the arrangement if they are unhappy with some of the decisions.  So this happens often.

I will tell exH of my decision in the next day or so.  I'm sure I'll get lots of calls and texts at work in response.  I can't stand that.  I will discuss with him, because he usually does that with me, although not always in the best way.

Ultimately my bigger issue is not what happens right now, when the kids are small.  My big worry is how the dynamic will change as the kids get older, but I guess I have to stop worrying about so far into the future.  I keep having to make tough decisions and I hate it.  The divorce was one, decisions of whether to go to court for custody evaluations when things come up, all of these things are terrifying to me.  I ask myself whether I am doing the best thing for the kids - often time proves that I did, but the answers aren't always clear.  I ask whether I'm wimping out or appropriately compromising; whether I'm exacerbating a situation or placating too much, choosing one course because of money (trying not to ever do that)... . I take weeks to analyze my decisions, consult experts, and still never know.  There were a few times I did see a therapist early on, and even consulted Bill Eddy at one point, and both of them validated my choices... . but therapists don't know every answer either. 

momtara, I'm looking at the big picture for you, and I think it comes down to this:

Do you believe your ex will act in the best interest of your children consistently?

If not on his own, what will it take?

Do you need it to be ordered by a court or taken out of his hands by a court?

Or do you think you can convince him to do the right thing without needing that?

And how much does it cost you (emotionally) to handle him this way (lots of calls & txts at work, etc.)?

As for how it would backfire? Mostly by teaching your ex that he can get you to spend $$$ when he is unhappy about the results and throws a fit and offers this sort of solution. If he thinks this works, he'll keep doing it!

Seems like a reasonable boundary - "If you text or call me at work I won't respond to that.  If something is important send me an e-mail and I will respond when I can."

E-mails are better because they leave a record, and because you can look at it and decide if and when and how to respond.

More and more, I've learned not to respond to everything I get from my ex, and as the result, she has learned not to contact me unless it is something appropriate.  It's a big change from when we were married and I was still trying to make her happy and make the relationship work... .

So I sent a very carefully worded, fact based email to exH saying I would be going to the next PC appointment, and several other things.  I was terrified he'd bombard me with angry emails and texts all night, so I went as far as wrapping my phone in paper towels and putting it in my purse.  (I turned the ringer off, but sometimes it buzzes anyway and I'm not always technically competent enough to figure out how to do all that).

It was quiet.  Too quite.  He didn't even call the kids like he usually does.

So I checked email.  Got a one line response:  "When is the appointment?"

This is after weeks of him demanding that I cancel it and fire our PC. 

One of two things is possible.  One, the PC has since contacted his T, so maybe the T thinks he should stick with our PC now.

Two, my exH still wants to win me back.  So he does what it takes (sometimes) to make me think he is all better and changed.  THis may be part of that.

This makes me nervous, because someday if he thinks he is not coming back, he could really get agitated.  I can't really control that, although I do try my best to protect the kids in cases where something has outraged him.

I might not have minded going with a new PC, but it also might have been a waste.  So thusfar, no drama.

Thanks for all y'all's help.  I guess it worked!  (Sorta)

How will you answer his question?

Just tell him the date and time.

Why?

Just wondering - keeping it simple is best!

You set a firm boundary.  He realized his bluff and bluster didn't work and quietly retreated.  See the value of boundaries?  If you would have caved you would have spent money and shown weakness that would have been used against you again and again.

Oh, and see how simple that was?  A week of worry and equivocation and one firm email stymied him.  Of course, there will be more obstructions and emotional pressuring later on, but the difference now is that you know you can make a stand and have it work!


I have an Android phone and the rigner is turned off by reducing the volume all the way.  However, one level above 'off' is the vibrate mode.  Your phone may be different.  Ask a friend to help show you how to figure it out.  Friends love to help.

Thanks, all.

He sent me a new email saying "You know I can't go that late."

I'm not going to respond, because it will end up in a back and forth.  We agreed on that time.  If he doesn't go, he doesn't go.  I'm going.

I think part of the reason I hedged is that it's possible we'd end up with an even better coordinator if we do it the right way - if I say to him, okay, let's get a new one, but we have to have the person appointed by the court, etc. 

That might have worked.  It also might have taken months of him rejecting everyone, or giving me people who would be worse, not better. 

If he doesn't show up, I can always point out to him that he stopped coming, and push for a PC later. 

I still can't get past my regret of not getting a psych and custody eval to begin with, which at least would have given me information on how to proceed.  Early in the game, I just didn't understand everything, and it might have made things harder.  I got almost all the parenting time, so maybe it doesn't matter.  It's really hard to know.  The good thing about the existing PC is that she made contact with exH's shrink, which is what I really wanted.

"I'm not going to respond, because it will end up in a back and forth.  We agreed on that time.  If he doesn't go, he doesn't go.  I'm going."

I think this is wise.  Over the years I've come step-by-step to an approach like this - say what you're going to do, and then do it, and let the other party make his choices and get whatever consequences they produce.

"I still can't get past my regret of not getting a psych and custody eval to begin with, which at least would have given me information on how to proceed."

Don't beat yourself up too much.  I made some big mistakes early on, and I'm sure most of us do.  We don't learn about this stuff in school.  We have to make the best choices we can, and learn as we go.  (But I'm really glad I found this community - it saved me from learning a lot of stuff the hard way.)

By saying you made an appointment and the time and date you also said you are following the court order, doing what was agreed to, and not letting chaos and confusion rule the day. Sounds like a good boundary to me. I wouldn't reply to the second email since that is just trying to create some confusion. You first email said everything you needed to say.

My ex was very good at making me second guess myself. The more detached I got the better things got for the boys and me.

Exactly.  Thank you.

I honestly wouldn't object to looking for new PC's and doing it the right way (getting a court order if we find a good one) if I didn't think it would mean more walking on eggshells with him and jumping through hoops.  I do think it might even be better to go about it the right way and find someone who can be court appointed, and stick with that person. 

He makes things so difficult.  I have to always be conscious about not making a decision just to get it over with so he'll stop badgering me.  It's not always clear what the right decision is.  If we pick a new PC, that person can be better, or worse.  I just don't always know.

No, you don't always know what's right, especially on things like which PC would be best.  You do some homework and then make your best judgment, just like we all do, and sometimes it works out well, and sometimes it doesn't.

You don't have to be badgered about stuff like this.  You can communicate with him by e-mail, and send him very simple notes - 3 sentences max, just the information, no emotions or arguments.  And then when he responds, you ignore anything that isn't constructive and only deal with what is useful.  You don't have to talk to him on the phone or face-to-face if it doesn't work - just turn and walk away, and let his calls go to voice-mail.

It took me a while to change how I deal with my ex.  Now I almost never see her face-to-face, and when I do I just say hello and walk on.  If she calls I let it go to voice-mail and decide whether to call back based on what she says.  If I decide to talk to her on the phone, and she says inappropriate stuff, I have learned to abruptly change the subject - no attempt at subtlety - just change the subject, to something directly related to the kids, and if that doesn't work, I hang up.

It's a big change but it works.  You do not have to allow yourself to be badgered.

I agree.  I allow this because that way, I get info about the kids when he has them.  I'd rather keep the lines of communication open.  But I do agree that there are limits and boundaries.