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UBPDbf's S24, who is married, just had a baby and lives far away, just told him father (uBPDbf) that next time he comes to visit with his family, he won't stay overnight at our house like he always has, because of his father's outbursts and screaming.  Needless to say, that upset uBPDbf alot, although according to him, he ended the conversation with his son by saying something like ... . oh well, that's what I get for taking care of you all these years.  (Completely defensive and acting like he didn't care)

UBPDbf of course doesn't get it.  When he told me the story yesterday, I was supportive and validated his feelings as best I could.  I really did feel bad for him because when his x-wife left him, his S24 was 14 and he raised him alone for the rest of the time.  They were as close as they could be, even with uBPDbf's outbursts towards him during that time.  His son doesn't want to expose his baby to that behavior and the son has seen it with his mother (the x-wife) and even towards me when he visited before.  

I was really upset about this last night because, even though I'm on Leaving, there was a tiny little part of me that was hoping still that there was some way he would realize his issues and agree to get help, even though he's always refused.   Now with his son telling him this, its like the last straw.  If he doesn't see the bigger picture now, I know for sure he never will.  

His D19, who the x-wife took when she left, has a bad r/s with uBPDbf because he rages at her for no reason.  So she doesn't want to spend any more time with her father than absolutely necessary.  Now the son ... .

Last night I tried to get him to see what's happening to all the people he loves - that he's chasing them away with his outbursts and verbal abuse.  I was talking very calm and I really think I said it in a way that conveyed that we all care about him and wish he would figure out why he's always soo angry.  I just can't believe that with what his S24 just said to him, that he still can't see it.  Maybe in a few days, after the conversation with S24 has had time to sink into his head, he'll take some action, but I won't be holding my breath.  

The thing is that you have to see how he reacts over the long term.  This could be rock bottom or not.  FWIW, you can't really tell what's rock bottom until you've gotten off of it.  I would definitely pay attention over the intervening weeks and months though to see what happens.

Good point. 

The 2 times I spoke to him on the phone today (very briefly), I could tell he was in the mood of "to hell with everyone, if they don't want to be around me, I don't care about them" so evidently nothing has sunken in yet.  It will be interesting to see how this plays out with his son.