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Just having one of those haunting thoughts about my uBPDstbxw.

During the last few months of our marriage as it went downhill I would hear at various times from her "I don't need you". She would add "I have my family and my friends and I have fun with them and they love me and I have things etc... . "

Then on breakup day as she tossed me away, among other things I hear it again. "I don't need you anymore", she then rattled off the list of who she has in her life and what she's got. It's not related to money for sure. It's personal.

As it relates to BPD, what do you make of the meaning of this? "I don't need you" & "I don't need you anymore".

I could understand if she said "I don't want you anymore", I don't understand this though, at least fully.

I'd be very appreciate of any feedback, thanks

Peace,

AO

Greetings my friend.  Please understand the words from the Borderline sense of emotional development, which is how it was explained to me in counseling.  "Mommy can I have a cookie?" "Oh thanks mommy".  "Mommy can I have another cookie?"  "No son it will spoil your dinner".  "I HATE you mommy".

Today you hear "I don't need you", up until things go wrong; she realizes the grass isn't greener and she will be calling to cling until she comes out the other side.  That will be followed by all the stuff we have all heard, rinse and repeat.

Please don't let those words haunt you.  I agree that rational people would simply say "the love is gone and I am sorry but I need to move"... . or whatever.  What you are hearing are the words from an adolescent; a person that cannot regulate their emotions.  "I hate you - Don't leave me"... .

Peace to you

 

I totally agree.

For the longest time I was hung up on the words which came out of my wife's mouth during the rupture of our relationship... . through break up... . through move out (and oh I wish it had stopped there)... . through soft recycle... . through "what?  You have a girlfriend?  How dare you"... . through "I think you are making a mistake wanting a divorce!" (even though she was the one who wanted the divorce and moved out)... . through "I hate you because you are doing things with your new girlfriend you wouldn't do with me!" (although she is sleeping with the man she was cheating on me with... . and got pregnant by him"... . through the time he dumped her... . through the soft recycle... . through "let's try therapy, but I love the other dude!"... . through "why are you still with your GF when I love you!"... . through "I'm not in love with you anymore"... . through "Im preganant, again, with another guys baby, but I want to run away with you so we can start again... . when the baby is born"... . through "Why are you still with your GF"... . through "I hate you for not cming to see me in the hospital while I'm pregnant with some other dudes baby.  You suck.  Go be with your girlfriend see if I care."

Okay... . I could go on and on and on and on.  But I think you get the point.

They are just words from a child. A  very angry hurt child.

I agree with the other guys... as you read from my post in your other thread, my son painted me black last weekend and wanted to "cheat" on me by going back to his mom when I invalidated him... have you read the thread on emotional immaturity (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=60935.0)? It was an eye opener for me.

I read these words verbatim.

They way I perceive it, borderline relationships are many times driven by their needs.

I heard this sentence several times, including "this is how I am going to arrange my life from now on, without you in them".

It feels like the same way they are dissociated from their own self they are somewhat dissociated from social reality and they cast people in their life as if it was a movie - to fill roles they need.  This is possibly related to lack of object consistency in their FOO past.

Don't take it personally.  It's the way their personality works... .

TIL

Following up on what others have said, I think that part of the problem in understanding words like "love" and "need" from our partners with BPD is that they don't have an adult sense of emotional development, and thus they don't use these words (which are complex and require a high degree of emotional development to understand) the way that we would.  When my ex left, she said "I don't love you like you want me to, but I'll always need you."  Of course I racked my brain to no avail trying to figure that out.  But then I was trying to use my definitions of the words.  What she meant was something much different no doubt.

Mine cruelly told me back in Nov, "I'll always have 'a' love for you." She probably meant "need." The need to be the stable parent for our kids. Based upon her periodic self deprecating comments about her motherhood, perhaps Approving Dad for her, and our r/s was very much Father/daughter (even one of my friends later told me this was his onservation).

TIL - yes, casting for a movie seems like what I witnessed her do.

Turkish - thx for the emotional immaturity link. I started reading it today, it's really interesting.

Thanks everybody for your time with the very helpful explanations.

While we are on the subject of Need, I would like to share something.

My wife has a need of the constant love and approval of her mother. That need is the most important thing of her life by far.

It was astounding to watch. Painful at times to see. Her mom, when occasionally not pleased over even some petty stuff my wife did would say a simple phrase to her "I am angry at you". And that phrase triggered her into complete panic always . I felt sorry for her many times seeing this. I felt when she told her that phrase it = abuse.

I started to have a problem with my wife though when she basically threw me under the bus so many times with her mom. She let her mom tell me off and didn't say anything and just stood by there very timid. I knew she was scared to talk back to her mom. I expected her to empathize later or say she's sorry though later when we got home at least to me. She never did though which I didn't appreciate. The most important need I would say she has is the approval of the mom. They are both best friends and shopping buddies. It is very bizzare and creepy. They are party buddies, gossip buddies and soul mates. In a way I feel my wife cheated on me with her mom.

Anyway the point of this story/venting is to say that as far as a need goes, my wife has a tremendous need to be validated by her mom. She would throw me under the bus even literally possibly to get her validation unfortunately I feel.

If I ever have kids I am going to be a great father and show the child love in a normal way so as to not add another person to society who has unnecessary mental problems that could have been avoided with love. The important thing to make that happen is to marry someone healthy also of course.

Thanks for letting me share this, it's a release.

Peace,

AO

AO i think your exw is being truthful here, not simply childish. I believe our exes, unbeknownst to us at the time truly did feel like they 'needed' us to feel complete or whole, and then they started to despise this need and seek other people to cling onto (need) to replace us with.

At some point your ex probably felt out of control like she was attached to a person who ultimately wanted to do her harm (you). Now, she feels empowered because she's found other attachments, so she doesn't 'need' you in this capacity anymore. And you are seeing her character and how she treats people who no longer serve her immediate 'needs'. Who is this personality? It's the same personality and behavior she gives to others once they don't meet her needs.

The childish part comes in later if she later comes back and 'needs' you again, in a genuine sense (rather than just playing games).

GL,

How is anything genuine with someone with BPD in reality? 90% of her words were lies. I am so confused after reading this. If she ever came back I don't plan on taking her back. How would I ever tell what is genuine if she did come back?

Peace,

AO

well, this would be really hard to figure out, how genuine your ex was/is being. the reality is that they may not even know. the only way i can think of to see if they were truly genuine would be to see if they follow through with real world actions to back up the words they say. your ex could say she does/doesn't need/want you, but the only thing we can do is see what they do to back this up, and judge the situation on their behavior (not the words).

this removes from us the burden of trying to guess what they are thinking. for example, maybe your ex really felt like she didn't need you anymore because she had her family and other people. or, could be she knew this was bs and was just putting up a front to seem strong. regardless, her actions will tell the only truth that matters to us. there's no way to really know what goes on inside their heads in the moment since they don't even seem to understand what's going on.

in essence i may consider certain behaviors genuine, such as starting therapy, accepting responsibility for their role with the r/s issues, actively doing things to try to change. admitting lies that they've told. telling less lies. being less abusive. in absence of this though, i think it's all bs, regardless of how they may 'feel' about it.

I was told 'I don't need people like you in my life' and that she had (and I quote) 'an enlightening moment'.

Says it all really 

The cycle (chronological order) since I caught her in bed with neighbor last year:

I was a horrible mean person that physically abused and raped her, I physically abused my kids.   

I was controlling I never let her do anything 

I helped her move out and she left kids with me. Now I'm a great man. I'm a really special person   

I'm a special man I'm going to have lots of girlfriends   

Screaming at me when I confronted her about lies "I don't want anything from you"!

Screaming at me when I confronted her about abandoning kids and hurting them. At the top of her lungs F**k You! You're so HOLIER THAN THOUGH... . F**k You! 

Kept texting me Christmas Eve, no doubt feeling pain and guilt... . I didn't respond 

Next started crying to me on the phone that she "Hates that we don't talk anymore"   REALLY? Go talk to your BOYFRIEND across the street.  *) sticking with NC!

Started crying  :'( when I mentioned how unhealthy it is for our sons to see her shacking up across the street while at the same time not seeing her boys. In the same conversation she started yelling at me again and the F bombs were about to fly

I REALLY THINK I NEED TO MOVE TO STOP THE INSANITY!

I got set back last week over the word "don't."

I was weak and texted her, nothing loaded. Just connecting.

We had a decent back and forth, but realized very LC, if not NC, was best.

I apologized for initiating contact. Told her my head is completely there, but my stupid heart doesn't get it yet and that it would soon.

She texted back, "Sorry."

I was triggered and couldn't leave well enough a lone,

"I just wish I knew for what."

Her, "That I can't feel the way you do."

I couldn't stop, "Really, 'can't?' I would have expected 'don't.'"

"Oh, Pecator, I just can't."

What the heck? Does that mean she does feel but her fear won't allow it?

I ruminated on that for a few days until I got myself to the point where I see it really doesn't matter.

She is probably just scared of the deep feelings we had for each other. So she is with someone else who she believes won't provoke those deep feelings.


whatever

Not sure if this will help with anything, but when my exBPDbf insisted we stay friends but yet he never initiated any contact.

I asked him why he was so distant and so slow at responding ,His exact words were " You haven't needed any help from me" I thought this was a strange answer , really couldn't figure out what it meant.

I now feel this was what people say they are all about , you have a purpose to them, when you fill that need, they set you aside (to recharge or dispose of)

He didn't seem to understand why I was  still around and not  needing something from him.

He didn't need me anymore ,so he couldn't understand why I needed him that didn't involve a favor or help.Even though I have never asked one single thing from him from day one.

It seems people are stepping stones to them, they look ahead to who will provide the next stepping stone ,they never seem to  look back on how they got there.

 

As I'm reading through some of the last posts, I'm reminded how conversations went with me and my (now ex) wife during the last few years of our ruptured relationship.  Especially when I was trying to rationally convey how her behavior (and apparent lies) were very damaging to the fabric of our lives.

Of course, it was turned on me so many times and I got beat up over it so much - I really started to belive it.  Even now that I'm totally out of it - some of it creeps back in and I want to defend myself, but then realize there is nothing or no one I need to defend myself to (except the crap running around in my head).

I know it will take time.  sometimes I am just impatiend.

I'd say, this is how my ex developed throughout our relationship... .

1. I want you.

2. I want you and i need you.

3. I don't want you but i still need you.

4. I don't want you and i no longer need you but i like knowing i could still have you.

So for... .

1. You're new and exciting. They MUST have you.

2. They become obsessed with you and develop a strong reliance and attachment to you.

3. They get bored of you, but they still feel an overwhelming attachment to you. You've become their "lifeline" so to speak, though they resent you for this.

4. Congratulations! You're about to be replaced!

Wow... . too close to home :).  I'm going to save this to a note on my phone as a reminder. 

Mine wrote in her journal (she left it in my house after she abandoned me), "I want to run back into your arms, but it can't be out of need, it has to be out of love!"

She correctly interpreted our dynamic, but her attachment to the young narcissist she was cheating on me with (and abandoned me for) was precisely need as well. It turned into love. Borderline style.

I emotinally abandoned her. I was no longer fulfilling her need to be "loved" her way (she admitted I had and was showing her unconditional love, even after I found out about the cheating).

She also wrote, "I was too naive to show Turkish how to love me!"

There are a lot of things going on in that statement, but the one important thing it says to me is that they need to be loved the way they need to be loved, not as we love, letting us just be ourselves. It's a fantasy construct, projection, and objectification of the "non" partner (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=87006.0).

Oh yes THIS is it! |iiii

Yes.  This hit very very close to home as well.

But here is the real question.  Can't this same type of dynamic happen in a "normal" relationship which progresses to the point of "drifting apart/they just aren't that into you anymore"... . and you go your separate ways?

This is the reason it took me MONTHS to actually join and post here. I was afraid that someone would say  "Honey , that man isn't BPD , you need to march right down to your local Books a million and snag yourself the book " He's not that into you" and at the age of 44? I would say get yourself in a hurry.

Every relationship has its stages: beginning - middle - end.

BPD relationships are simply dysfunctional... .

Peace

I think that is what I'm wrapping my brain around.  My T had told me since I have been around a lot of women my whole life who seem to be disordered (starting with my mother), I couldn't see the difference between a healthy and unhealthy r/s.

My recent b/u with my GF, in my opinion, was somewhat pretty healthy.  I mean, we didn't fight, bicker, argue, rage, do un-godly things around each other.  Had a wonderful time during the time we were together.  I think we both took it a little too far too fast, blew right past a lot of the yellow caution signs.  But... . that can happen.

Once things started to settle down - we just ran out of steam and called it quits.

One of the reasons I know that this was different is because she isn't coming back, getting all "Why did you leave me... . you suck!" type thing (when it really was because of something she did which gave me no choice but to call  it quits). 

So... . yeah - things can happen in any r/s which can make it so the pairing doesn't work.  I mean, heck... . something as simple as once the honeymoon phase wore down, we had more disalike interests than alike.  Who knows.

All I know is it was a good time we both had together and enjoyed the season.

I'm gonna hold on to that.

WOW It is amazing how all of our scenarios similar. And most amazing why we can not pull out of this destructive madness and find "Normal" woman? My BPDgf destroyed my carrier, my marriage, my soul and my spirit. I can not live with my non-wife, because she is "normal". I am experiencing physical addiction, she runs to other men and come back. She is breaking up for little stupid things and "forever" but come back. I have to Stop but I don't have inner strength I miss her badly and crying. I saw 2 psych's dozen times that was total waist of money. I love her but I can not detach. Help!

This is an interesting topic for debate, but I would make a few points that, in my view, differentiate this description of a r/s from one that ends but is otherwise "healthy."

1) Most of our relationships with BPDxs featured a lot of talk about "love," and while it is certainly true that people fall out of love and that love can fade, I think that very few healthy relationships predicated on love end because one partner "gets bored."  The end because partners' lives are moving in different directions, or their values are not shared any longer, or something else.  My BPDex, however, and I'm sure those of many others here, was quite explicit about the fact that she became bored of all people and all things eventually and that this caused her to move on (of course, I thought I would be different... . ridiculous).  She told me how she would frequently change hair color/style, or that she would lease cars for a few years knowing it was a bad financial decision, etc, entirely out of awareness of her own tendency toward boredom.  And it was certainly boredom ("It's not fun anymore" that led her out of a relationship with the person she once loved "more than she knew it was possible to love another human being."  I don't believe that this is a characteristic of a normal healthy r/s that ends.

2) Personally, I feel like "3. I don't want you but i still need you" and

"4. I don't want you and i no longer need you but i like knowing i could still have you" are fundamentally borderline.  I have been on both sides of break-ups in relationships I thought were fairly healthy, and at no point was "I don't want you but I still need you" part of the equation.  This would have been and odd distinction.  When those relationships ended, regardless of how friendly we were afterwards, there was no sense that the partner who initiated the break still "needed" the other partner.  In the case of many BPDxs (including my own), this fact was made explicit.  In fact, I was explicitly told "I don't want you anymore but I'll always need you," and then I ended up provoking an angry response by suggesting this was an unreasonable arrangement.

So, I think it's more than a difference of degree.  Healthy relationships certainly do fall apart, and do so because people grow apart.  But I think there are elements of the description above that really are fundamentally "borderline" in nature. 

Yes! And another thing is that people (pwBPD & NON's) don't TRUELY know what LOVE is. Love is NOT a FEELING that comes and goes. Love is an ACTION! If you TRUELY love someone you put their interests and well being above or at least on par with your own. I think this is a societal and generational problem. Too many people getting married thinking they are in LOVE. The emotional HIGH were on when we're in that HONEYMOON phase gets us away from thinking rationally. I know that's why I avoided all the  red-flag  that were in front of me and dove into the water head first without any life jacket on. And in defense of my uBPDxw, she didn't pay attention to the   red-flag  about me.[/quote]

In the end I think that's what hurt me the most after I caught her in the affair and found out about her other improprieties. I still loved her and wanted to do whatever it took to stay together. I was willing to forgive and to do whatever it would take to work on her issues, to work on my issues and to try to come together because I LOVED her and took my vows seriously. SHE DIDNT. She just CASUALLY threw it all away... . Because she NEVER TRUELY loved me!

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

She may have, for a season. But as you say, it was more a feeling, an immature kind of love, rather than something solid. Unable to control their emotions, they couldn't control their love.


I read this verse to my uBPDx when I thought I might have a chance of saving us (notice, my Rescuer role). It started with me reading the chapter on Unconditional Love from the book The Love dare. She started crying. I asked her if I should stop. She replied, "no, I need to hear this." More crying. At the end, I said something about reality, and she turned to me and said, "what is reality?" It was then that I knew what I had been sensing from her was dissociation (her detachment from me, the kids, and our home while she was out being teenage lover with her boy toy; it was like living with a different person). At that point, I felt it was hopeless. Maybe not a week later, I caught her still messaging the guy. I "technically" ended it at that point, though that was a formality. I let her go as gracefully as I could over the next four months.

My Christian T told me that there was nothing wrong with showing her patience and kindness, which are two aspects of love. So I did, and still do, though my fleshly mind still fights me. 

Those words exactly describe the "marriage" with my "wife" (uBPDstbxw).