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I've read that a Narcassist will stop at nothing to win, even if that puts them in danger or at loss. I have PTSD from my childhood. And I notice when I get very stressed, I will also adopt a subbon approach, but only when someone is being Narcissitic towards me. So for example, I was dealing with a company that basically lied to me when selling. Then avoided refunding me with by losing correspondence, fogetting, insisting they had sent a check etc... . etc... . Now I saw red - becasue clearly they were being Narcisstic. But I then put in huge amounts of time and effort to recoup just £12. Because of the principle. Didn't make business sence. I was enraged for days.

Irroncially I'm normaly very laid back and very tollerant (probably too much so). But when stressed and up against a Narcassist - I'm always defiant, and it's not good. Because we know Narcassist feed of that rubbish, whilst I wear myself down.

I realise I learn't this behaviour because I was brought up in a War zone with two agressive N's who would have you for breakfast if you didn't put up a fight. My question is How do I stop this ? I no longer live with vampires.

Hi, Happy. 

Same here, raised in a war zone. Nothing like running for cover emotionally and physically from age 3 or so on   

My personality is typically go along to get along. Always has been... . I think even if I'd been reared in a loving "normal" home, I would've been laid back.

I have to be so so so pushed... . and then wow... . watch out... . I find myself blacking people for just being... . well people [this not including abusive parents, mind you, just idiotic mistaken people].

I will replay a grievance forever in my mind - ruminating it's called.

The only thing that seriously seems to shut me down is self-talk where I ask, whatever chore or activity I am doing and the ruminating kicks in apropos of nothing, I ask - "Well... . it hasn't killed you has it? They have forgotten about it already, probably instantly... . you know if you don't matter that much in the first place... . you don't matter so neither should they... . " etc

I will dog an issue over someone taking emotional hits off of me much longer than I will a financial shortcoming or scam... .

I internalize it to that degree.

Neither of us living with vampires... . I guess a good idea is to bring the grievance or hurt up into the light, air it out, talk it over with someone who has proven to be a good friend - sometimes that's just ourselves lol - and let it only carry the weight it really deserves -

Some  things ARE that big. They don't need to be buried or ignored.

Other things are just your average daily dose of manure that comes from inhabiting an aging saggy planet with 6 billion of us trampling around on one another.   

At least you know you can tend to chase it for too long.

I have too and once we are self aware we can hopefully curb the compulsion to do battle.

I mean - the war is won - we are adults, we are competent enough to face each day and even come to a board like this and we can communicate (they can't) and share and give ourselves and each other a little bit of hope and compassion.

That's a victory.

Cheers for being stubborn when you need to be and yet being concerned if you are going overboard - fine line and I think you are being responsible to peel it all back.

|iiii

HappyC: I don't know! LOL. Glad you brought this up, as it's vital for me, too, and your post helped clarify some thoughts. 

I also feel stuck with feelings and behaviors from the War Zone, even though my life is so much better now. Recently, have realized that rage is not only at my parents and uBPD grandmother, but at myself for not being able to avoid learning my caregiver's anger, judgment, criticism, shame, and hiding (my grandmother was "Witch/Hermit". In effect, the beast is within and took hold of my insides as a child. In trying to live an adult life, I have never been able to admit this. 

Re: anger... . I got irritated on my job at someone who told me nicely that something I was doing was incorrect. Anger/reactiveness are automatic for me... . am realizing that I am not familiar with, or practiced at, more effective behaviors. These auto-reactions aren't bringing me greater peace, self esteem, and connectedness.

Sometimes, anger makes me feel powerful and less bullied by others... . it seems to help compensate for feelings of helplessness and vulnerability (this is sometimes called "identifying with the aggressor". I tell myself that with anger, I am owning my feelings and standing up for myself instead of making peace at any price, as I have always done. But now, I want to find healthier ways to be assertive.

When auto-reactions are triggered, I am fixated on one emotion or interaction without considering the context. For example, on my job, the co-worker who pointed out my error is warm and friendly and competent, not harsh or unfair. Yet I inwardly "went off." Over the next day or so, I tried to practice being more aware of triggers (minor or major); slow down; and know that I can  choose among a variety of outward responses. I'm still trying to figure out what these are... .  

This doesn't equal denying my feelings, but acknowledging them and then making a decision. I read in a DBT text that, while we may not be able to change our feelings, we can learn to respond to them in a way that serves us better. This seems just as true for PD survivors as for pwPDs.   

One more point: I often can't distinguish between old, normal, and justified rage and grief from the past, that needs to be felt and processed... . and a self-defeating, ongoing anger habit that doesn't help me get my needs met. I want to both own my emotions and not be at the mercy of constant anger.

Thanks, HappyChappy, for bringing this up. I enjoy your expressions "whilst" and "rubbish." I am American, so these sound wonderfully British to me! 

   



   

Lucyhoneychurch & BabeRuthless Loved your responses - so helpful. Nice to know that this is more about being brought up in a vampires nest, than anything else. That suggest there is shared learning that will help.

Lucyhoneychurch - your description of self sounds so much like me, so I expect your must be a wonderful person (lol). Thanks for the tip about talking to myself - sometimes that's the only intelligent conversation I can get. Also ruminating is a new one for me.

BabeRuthless - love your name. Being English, I'm guessing it's a play on Babe Ruth - only baseball is called cricket in my country. I also struggled with the issues you raise. But on realising the BPD thing, it clicked that it was Narcissistic attacks that get me. Lucyhoneychurch also allured to this "I will dog an issue over someone taking emotional hits off of me... . " I guess I would call that Narcissistic. Emotional hits are below the belt fighting.

Thanks again. Maybe we can keep each other posted, if we discover new techniques. I notice that my issues only raise their head if I'm already highly stressed. But as we know, that's a read light to a Narcissist - they love to attack when we're week.

lucyhoneychurch is it just  my-issuess? yeah people without disorders can be complete gits too, can't they? I reckon it's ok to get annoyed. Maybe that's enough. I tell myself "Hey - you feel this way. Maybe it won't change. Maybe you're stuck with this first line of thought till kingdom come but, well is it so bad? it's not like I'm trying to knock them down or deflate their tyres. i'm just annoyed is all! is not so bad is it?


Me too! And if I'm flat out honest, I get more of a kick out of it than is strictly healthy. Ok. Too bad. I got a bit of damage from messed up domestos. So sue me. I'm kind I'm tolerant I have worn THAT MUCH CRAP surely I get a bit of a margin for dwelling on stuff that others might let go or not even notice?

HappyChappy


Laughed. Out. Loud

And on the subject of names, I loved that book - Room With a View. Keep posting. great info from this. Thanks guys

Zed

Haha... . HappyChappy might smile at this too, Zig:

"And if I'm flat out honest, I get more of a kick out of it than is strictly healthy." the ruminating that is... .

Sort of like in those old westerns where someone's got a huge Bowie knife on a whetstone and they're grinding it and grinding it and then they take a finger (sans blood of course usually) and run it along the edge like, "Yes, that's very nice... . "

I will whet the bitter grudge until it's mighty honed and sharp. And then usually right about then the universe like sends me the most incredible blue butterfly (we have them in eastern US called hairstreaks, of all things, they are cosmic powder blue) or a song will come on the radio ("Wake me up when it's all over... . when I'm wiser and I'm older... . all this time I was finding myself... . and I... . didn't know I was lost" - Avici) that grounds me just long enough to think, "Now why the HELL was I wasting any energy in that direction?"

Best line in Room with a View is Mrs Honeychurch harping about social class... . "yes Freddy [he is rolling his eyes about who can come to tea or not], there is a right sort and a wrong sort... . I knew I was right... . "

Benevolent snobbery, Mrs Honeychurch... . lol... . because she is very aware their fortune was made, not inherited.

Lest I ramble too far afoot... .

These are great validating posts... . a long dreary weekend here on my end. Appreciate knowing where I can find some comeraderie.

comraderie... . we do need spell check lol... .

You know... . friendship.   

I tend to feel triggered and attacked with even normal or true feedback. My parents in particular (who seem to be a BPD/NPD pair). Recently I emailed an edited version about my husband tripping and falling, injuring his ankle. My parents  don't need to know the back story to it (my husband has a medical condition that makes him more imbalanced, we've chosen not to share this with my parents because they would not respect his privacy/tell everyone and unnecessarily dwell on it), just that we were on a crowded steep street.  My Dad has a need to be right (uNPD) and I wondered if he was also a little annoyed that I'd checked my cell phone while a passenger in the car with him recently (my full attention was not on him, constantly). He emailed back and implied my husband may have tripped because he was fiddling with his phone. On reread, I overreacted, but at the time, it really triggered me. But, I recognized I was triggered and pulled myself from feeling and looked at the facts--my Dad does not have all the info and he's right, being distracted could make someone more likely to trip. He may have been upset about my brief use of cell phone, or he may not have noticed and I'm reading too much into it. No need to get defensive and JADE back.

When I was a kid I thought by BPD/N mother was wonderful so I tried to act just like her. It hasn't been until just a few years ago I realized that doing that doesn't work for me.

I actually didn't even know I was copying her, it was subconscious. Still, I don't know how people could stand me, I was obnoxious!

Me too. Just found out that PTSD promotes vengfull thinking. Not that I've ever acted on it, but Ziggiddy does make it sound like fun, so maybe I should have a bash. I often regrett not complaining (but then I am British), which is revenge of sorts. |iiii

Criminy! What am I creating? ;o) Ah you got to have a laugh don't you? The British are so polite. We colonials have no manners. Maaaate. But seriously folks ... .


breatheDeep oh me too. So me. people continually tell me she is one of the most amazing people they have ever met - so funny, so cool - wish my mother was like that. Oh honey, no. No no no. I recall when giving birth to my first bub in some  ... . discomfort shall we say. Mother breezes into the delivery room all decked out in weird clothes, bizarre earrings and jaunty beret. Went about distracting and regaling my birth team and midwife with tales of - well I wasn't listening but they were. Ridiculous. "Excuse me but could someone please pass me the morphine?" Wretched woman - they never knew the half of it. My sister on the other hand when she went into labour gave me one strict instruction: Keep mother out in the lobby and under NO circumstances let her in. And to think I spent years and years trying to be her, Then more years trying so hard not to be her that I was becoming her. Now I think I'd like to be me. if only I can find out who that is!

Zig I have an incredible friend from Down Under... . Your "oh honey no no no" is her response to a t... .

And I had to lol about your mother pulling an "Edwina" Jennifer Saunders/Absolutely Fabulous moment on you... . always one-upping her daughter Saffron... . whose labor is it, anyway, dahling? the beret was classic Edwina. 

As I got married before my sister, the 2nd eldest... . she took my advice about not letting our mother really have a damned thing to do with her wedding - the dress, the cake, nada... . and it went off without a hitch... . mine being nothing but a hijacked freaky thing that would this day make a really terrible reality show episode... . not "Say Yes to the Dress... . " more like Run like Hell Silly Girl.

So back to how to unlearn... . I would say it's alot of adages - Get over yourself... . get over it... . get a life... . glass half empty half full... . count your blessings... . you didn't break it you can't fix it... . I didn't cause it, I can't control it... . I am the only person I can change.

All said to ourselves in the truest sense, HappyChappy of... . this too shall pass... . I don't know though about the "what doesn't break us makes us stronger." maybe.  But alot of us outright break. And there is no superglue to put us back together, no matter how good we look from the outside.

With a loving heap of snark tossed into the mix as well - Mean people suck... .

I.E.  be good to yourself. No one else can do it like you can. 

And that said with  complete lack of snark... . heartfelt empathy and  |iiii

On a positive note, having realised that ACoRNs have low self esteam, I have been walking up right, treating rather than denying myself things etc... . etc... . and feel a whole load better. So I think we can mend, but might take time. Anyway - who doesn't have a cross to bear.

This has also made me realise, that my PTSD is far worse than I imagined, and again - there's loads of books to help. Ab Fab - another reason to be happy - pure quality that program. Have you seen Alan Partridge - hillarious. He's an out an out Narcassist.

Hi, HappyChappy,

I had PTSD from my upbringing, too. Are you seeking any kind of treatment for it?

Sometimes we run on auto-pilot and do behaviors that made sense to our survival when we were younger, but now are counterproductive. It sounds like you are wanting to change your defiant behavior--is that right? Have there been any examples in your life recently of a time when that behavior has gotten in your way?

Wishing you peace,

PF

Good question P.F. . It’s been very bad recently because I have been very stressed and recently realised that BPD exists. I previously knew my childhood had been hell on earth and that my PTSD related to that. But I thought vampires were fictional.

Prior to that I was permanently on a waiting list on the NHS (National Health Service), but in 14 years I have never gotten to the end of the waiting list. I understand even if you're suicidal here there 6 months of waiting and I guess I've never seen it as that bad. In the UK there is an enormous disparity between funding for Mental Health and Physical health. Ironically I have always had the money for private care, but I recently realise I was trained not so spend money on myself.

However recently I have a couple of episodes of getting angry down the phone at suppliers.  I don't fare well when someone lies to me then denies it (i.e. Narcisstic trickery). So I overreacted. They did refund the money though - so not all bad.

So far I have download a self help guide from the NHS. Nothing wildly new in the guide. One of my clients is a counsellor, so I did a skill swap with her, but there didn't seem much structure to what we were doing. Just chatting with a few handouts at the end.

Have you got any suggestions ? Something structured ?

((happychappy)) the beauty of online support is that I can send you a big hug on a Sunday morning when the eastern US is in a blissful springtime lull before heat and humidity return Tues/Wed :)

Take your time. Also suffering from a complex PTSD I would guess/conjecture from the first 40 yrs of my life being impacted by so many types of abuse and dysfunction - there's no rush. 

I guess you have seen our really shameful news headlines where our brave vets at the Veterans' Administration (VA) are being given appts for 6 months later... . this reconciles with a young Afghanistan Marine Corps vet I know personally who was bumped back over and over even as he was asking for help and saying, WOW I am really in big trouble here... .

The beauty of getting back on our feet is... . nobody can dictate a timeline. WE will know when we are ready for therapy, or not. WE will know that we have in turn perhaps dished out some pretty awful near-bullying crap of our own that maybe over-compensates for what we have been through... .

Personal input being... . I got a really laid back, incredible... . magical ol' Chocolate Lab to keep me company... . she was attacked yesterday by freaky out of control neighbors' dog who constantly runs in road, etc... . if a friend had not been here to pull said little freaky animal off my ol' girl and me - I dunno... . I was suddenly airborne as my sweet attached girl said, Uh, NO youdon't... .

Bruises all over... . my arse lol being the most abused as I landed on my cell phone in back pocket - mercifully under a huge oak tree and mossy ground... . but let's just say... . this is why 51-yr-old women do not rollerskate or play rugby typically... . all night my sprung damaged shoulder was screaming... .

Point being... . um... . I wanted to go over there to the house across the road, raise hell... . ram it home ONE MORE TIME how their deadbeat useless "neighborliness" is so useless... .

Instead... . lit a little cheapie honey flavored ciggie... . had a shot of brandy... . made myself sit out under a gorgeous robin's egg blue sky with my ol' protector lying at my feet and say... .

Screw it.     It's okay. Nobody got bitten. Nobody had any broken bones.

My hint to you - do your own personal status update... . pursue therapy or the equivalent for you at your choosing and in your own timing.

When I want to malign and pursue slimy deadbeat anybodies - I realize I am actually pursuing and addressing those in my FOO who abandon, ruin, sabotage... .

So it makes it easier to walk away from the "moment's" abuser.

I did, btw, call our local animal control officer who issued them a warning... .

I have a right to have a lovely old Lab in my yard, on a leash, doing her "thing" which at that time was emptying her bowel and bladder lol... .

Never saw the insane little nutjob dog... . how typical of life right?

I'll take the aches and pains of another lesson learned because... . I am a responsible parent, pet owner... . person... . unlike these types who ignore laws and common sensical things like... . keep your dog under control... . be kind to your children... . they didn't ask to be born... . neither did your dog ask to belong to you.



 from across the big puddle   |iiii

haha... . this comment of yours was what the sleepy Sunday morning brain wanted to address then went off about the dog attack... . geez... .

"... . but I recently realise I was trained not so spend money on myself.'

WOW!

either trained or just figure I am NOT WORTH IT.

My wardrobe... . nonexistent.

Fridge... . bare... .

Makeup... . uh no.

Hair... . ditto.

Hermitty!

Run Happy Chappy RUN to the nearest kiosk selling "YOU MATTER" Tshirts and grab one... . for me?  :)

I will give so much money away to charities, wait help in restaurants (paying people to be nice to me, I know that for sure), friends anonymously who need some sort of help... .

Then live and look like a bag lady... . Not to disparage bag ladies... . they are just surviving too. 

Get the personal mental health care even if you have to pay. COME ON... . you know you're worth it... . just 'cause I said so.   

If you have the money for private care and access to it, then the wait list for public care is not really an excuse. Having been conditioned by upbringing not to spend on yourself doesn't mean you can't start making different choices. You don't have to be a slave to your upbringing--you have control of you now.

The question is, how badly do you really want to get treatment? How important are you to you? Nothing says you have to get treatment now--but if you see a need for it and want to get started making changes, it sounds like help is available to you.


Thanks for offering an example of the kind of behavior you want to change. It sounds like you would like to have more control over your reactions when you are in a situation that feels triggering to you--such as when you feel someone is lying to you. If you do have PTSD, therapy is probably the best way to go about changing your reactions. You will need to process the reason behind the reaction.

In this case, someone lied to you. Somehow that reminded you emotionally of your childhood, and you reacted as you would have with your FOO. Realistically, this may not be the most helpful solution in real life--you are aware of this. Can you think of a response that would allow you to confront the behavior you didn't like (the lying) while maintaining your cool? How would you prefer to have responded?

Have you had a look at TOOLS: Triggering, Mindfulness, and the Wise Mind (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=64749.0)?

PF

Being the latchkey child of a single mother, I learned to take care of myself from a young age (auto-parentification?). No one likes Narcisists,.and I get that trigger. While I take constructive criticism well, it's on my terms. That is to say, I've already decided on whether or not something I did is questionable. Then I will take... . "input." I am middle aged, and am doing very well for myself, financially as well, despite the fallout from my uBPDx. On some level, however, my mother still thinks I haven't "made it." She still makes comments once in a while, implying I should give up my 22 year career and do something else that she would approve of. Though being a lot more confident than I used to be, it still triggers me, like, "haven't I demonstrated that I have done well enough?"

Friends who have known me for decades, and a few who have known me since childhood, tell me they are amazed that I have done so well, coming from so little, with so many obstacles. A friend I hadn't seen in a year was telling me something like this just last night. Yes, it made me uncomfortable.

With my mother, I realize it for what it it: projection, and that's her problem, not mine.

For the record, my mom exhibits Waif tendencies (to this day), though strongly witch when I was a teen. My uBPDx has more of the narcissistic traits, and she triggered me big time with her criticisms. Again, projection on her part.

Bless you lucyhoneychurch - your typing realy made my day. I love your turn of phrase.
PF Good advise. I've been reading up on this for 6 months, I'll keep reading.


Hey Turkish a person after my own hart. You could have been writing about me. I once won a National Child's Art competition, and my BPD mom chastised me for making her GC jellous. It was televised, and I wasn't allowed to go. She latter cut my portoflio of pictures up, as she wasn't going to waist money on postage - they needed to fit into an A4 envelope.

But you're right - got nothing to do with us. I was a scapegoat burning myself out trying to prove I wasn't myBPD projection. But Turkish - maybe that's why we've managed to impress our friends?