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Need some advice!

DD14 has been home from RTC for 2 1/2 weeks now.  She is done with school for the year, her last day was Monday.  She was home Tues-Thurs "relaxing" and getting re-adjusted to life at home.  When I arrived home last night, I found one of her chores was not done.  I asked her to do it and she went into a full blown "rage" episode on me, swearing at me, telling me to shut the f up, etc. She went up to her room to "pause".  She ended up calling one of her friends, which is part of her support system.  I left the house and did a couple errands.  When I returned, she was still VERY angry and irritable and refused to even have a conversation with me.  This continued until I dropped her off with her ride to go to her dads house for the long weekend.  She went as far as to plug her ears when I talked.  I guess my issue is, what is considered her BPD and should there be a consequence for 1)  Not completing her chores per our agreement (although she did finally take care of it last night) and 2) Being totally disrespectful to me?

I have no idea how I'm going to make it through this.  I called her dad and both of us feel that we've "lost her" forever and there is no solution other than she will end up running away and/or ending up in jail/prison.

Thoughts and advice?

Hi. My DD14 is currently at an RTC. She's been there a little of two months... . ? How long was your DD there? What type of improvements have you seen since she's been out or during her day passes? My DD tells me of all the chaoes that goes on at the RTC she is at. Did you DD ever talk of similiar experiences?

My perspective comes from being a mother of a late 30's BPD who didn't start calling me names and having rages till she was much older.  She just needed a "minute" to relax for 3 years this last time she lived with us.  I was ridden with guilt and shame and available to be manipulated as a result.  I was taught about BPD earlier this year through therapy and one of the things my therapist said was, "She is crying out for boundaries like a 2 year old."  So once I mastered depersonalizing and learned not to engage with BPD daughter's rages or milder upsets, I began in earnest to set the boundaries and stick to them.  She sensed my detachment and learned she couldn't affect me emotionally anymore nor could she get me angry or reactive. She knew I was calmly going to stick to my boundary/consequence and she gave up trying.  She still hates me and blames me for everything but since she gets no power from expressing all that misery to me, she no longer does it. While this not the same as having a minor child to contend with, I just can't stress enough about learning to detach and yes, I would recommend calmly having consequences and sticking to it and then dismiss her rants and rages... . tell her she can wear herself out but it won't change anything.  My daughter got sick of hearing herself scream and being the only one screaming. I guess it's just not that gratifying when they can't get someone to jump into the fray with them... . it makes them see they are the only one.  Took her 2 or 3 rages to get there. Depending on how severe it was I either calmly escorted her out of the room, left the room myself, or just went about my business, as did DH.   I wish I'd known years ago what I know how and had the tools and fortitude to stick with things. Instead I reinforced her powers of manipulation by trying to reason with her, listen to her and pay for things she should have gotten for herself. I always felt like I was showing her how kind, patient and supportive I was.  But it doesn't work that way.  The more I tried, the more she disrespected me.  It was like trying to negotiate with a terrorist... . they'll take what they can from you but in the end they still hate you and want to see you destroyed.  

Yes yes what chooselove just said!  |iiii

hello urbanfan1, 

I have a couple of questions: What is her dad's involvement in the treatment of BPD? Are you on the same page, and are you able to back each other up?

As far as raging - that is best dealt with on the spot with firm boundaries. The side panel has some really good tools and ideas for that ------------------>

As far as consequences for not completing chores, it is best to have a system set up, where she keeps certain privileges as long as she fulfills certain responsibilities. If she fails, she has space to improve and regain her privileges.

It is REALLY important to keep the language positive and looking into the future. "You can do this as long as you can do this... . " For some reason it really doesn't work the other way consequences as punishment or taking things away for bad behavior and looking into the past i.e.: "You didn't do your chores, so we are taking your phone away."

Even though it's basically the same thing, if you say: "You can have your phone back as soon as you finish your weekly chores on time." You may get compliance much more easily. Also, there is no need to argue or get upset on your part. If dd gets upset or argues, you can calmly point her to the fact that the rule is clear and she has a choice.

The former (punishment) only sets you up for a power-struggle and it's a losing proposition. PwBPD don't respond well to that.

Chooselove, well said. I am so with you. Our story are so similar.  My problem is learning to detach.  I feel like a hostage every time I am with her.  It is getting so I dread family time.  Isn't that awful? tonight we were out for dinner.  My d22 was just trashing her friend.  We all thought it was awful her opinion and let her know that we thought differently and that we had a right to our opinion.  She ended up yelling at us all saying that she can't criticize her friends but her Sister can do it anytime.  Dead silence.  My Dh and older D and myself sat there saying nothing as were afraid of the scene that might happen in a public restaurant.  I could not finish my meal.  My stomach was in knots.

I identify with what you are saying chooselove. I too thought unconditional love would change things. I would try always to be there with patience and understanding but it just empowered her to almost bully me.

I now think unconditional positive regard and wishing the best for her is fine- but I do need to stick to boundaries and detach emotionally for her sake, my own sake and the rest of the family's sake

Hi Urbanfan,

I just wanted to chime in on this one.  We really struggled trying to figure out how to get dd to do her chores.  There are things we had to give up on... like her room.  WOW the health department would probably declare us a disaster zone and make us move out while they clean things up if they ever saw her room!  But it was too big of a fight to fight. 

However, she is supposed to clean one room a day.  Living room, kitchen, office or bathroom.  We rotate daily between the 4 of us.  This must be done by 8pm without me reminding her.  If she doesn't do it she gives me her phone for the night and I return it in the morning.  If she doesn't give her phone willingly we shut off her phone and Wi-Fi for 24 hours.  I've only had to do that a couple of times.  It's not a huge deal and it's not supposed to be.  It's only a slight inconvenience to remind her of what is expected.  This works really well.  She doesn't feel the need to rage because we are very clear that it's just a reminder and not the end of the world.

Dear urbanfan1

I guess we have all felt that way at some point... . hopeless and thinking the worse for our children and there future.

Your dd has just come home from RTC and that is an adjustment time... . when my dd came home she was exhausted from the experience... . truly tired and shaking. How long was she there and what were their recommendations to you when she was released?

what help have you received? Have you had a chance to learn some communication skills?

If you are all going to repeat the same patterns as before she went to RTc then nothing will change. There has to be an equal effort on each side. Why do you think your dd will run away?

Two thumbs up, chooselove.

Our daughters must be twins!  My dd is 17 now, and I will say that 13-15 were her worst.  My dd has been in 3 treatments, and each time she came out worse with new behaviors learned from the other kids.  She was and is not willing to change her behavior or take responsibility.  Challenging and resistant to treatment.

Despite the drama, I would challenge you and your ex to not awful-ize and go to "lost forevers" and doomsday predictions about the future. That is not compatible with your well-being, and it is likely not truth. Things can and will LIKELY turn around when she has time to mature.  Personally, I wouldn't expect life to be too smooth with any 14 year old BPDer, but remember that this is not forever!  They can get better later in life, and you must hold on to hope, because that is all we have!

An undone chore is not the end of the world here.  Honestly, I don't always get my chores done.  The main issue is the raging and disrespect!  At 14, and having completed RTC, do you feel she has the tools needed to control herself?  Was there some emotion triggered by your question?  Sometimes my dd is mean and disrespectful to me, but is super sensitive at the same time.  Is it possible she wanted affection or validation when you arrived, and she was hurt/invalidated when you asked her to do the chore right away?  My dd is ultra sensitive that way, yet she is uncaring and nasty to US.  Funny how that works.

I like "Love and Logic" for consequence ideas, as they are real life and put responsibility onto the child without lectures and judgments.  If my dd is disrespectful to me, I will do something.  It does not need to be immediate, if she is escalated (deflect, defer until stable then proceed).   An example of a Love and Logic consequence is: if she is nasty to me, I will not give her rides for 24 hours from the last nasty/hurtful comment.  That seems reasonable and natural ---- in life you cannot verbally assault someone and then expect them to taxi you around!   If it continues, I will confiscate devices, one at a time, for 24 hours from the last mean comment, but I prefer the natural consequences.  Othertimes, I choose not to be around her for a period of time, until she is choosing respectful behavior. 

I try to have grace, redirect, and give her a chance to turn things around.  Consequences can quickly escalate her and trigger her to even more misbehavior.   I think there needs to be a focus on trying to get on the same page and reach the same goals.  However, when the are not willing to cooperate with us, there is not much else we can do but set boundaries and follow through.  They are very impulsive at 14, so I would do daily consequences only.  :)on't ground her for a month, you will only make yourself miserable.  Make each day a new day!  Use behavior modification very judiciously, or it will backfire.

I recommend reading "What Works for Bipolar Kids" and "Parenting with Love and Logic."  "What Works" has a parent-focused RAINBOW plan, which focuses on what we CAN do as parents.  While written for bipolar kids, not BPD kids, it is WONDERFUL as a resource for parenting kids who are chronically irritated, angry, and emotionally unstable.  I got so sick of therapists feeding me the "let it go" and "there's nothing you can do" lines. It is refreshing to get practical ideas for day to day life, rather than Buddhist mantras that are so impractical to apply to a child you are caring for and want to guide and parent.  It is not useful to disconnect and detach from a 14 year old minor child, imo.  :)etachment is more applicable for adult relationship; but not so much in a caregiving/parenting relationship.  I think we should seek greater ATTACHment with our children, especially BPDers.  They are so hard to love and attach to, but they need the connection desperately.

It is more beneficial to find ways to stay connected as an authority figure, life coach, and role model at the very minimum.  I don't expect to be validated by  my BPDer, I don't expect her to always do her chores or homework perfectly, but I do demand that she treat me with respect.  She breaks this boundary and likes to see if she can hurt me/trigger me/control me.  I think the best way to handle it is to stay out of the storm and try to generate peace and role modeling.

As a parent,  you CAN love your child, get routines in place, encourage self worth, help them develop competencies/interests/hobbies, help them get a decent education, etc, etc.  It really helps me to focus on what I CAN do.  We need to be empowered as parents, and find our voices in our homes.  We need to stay positive ourselves, and keep hope alive!  I hope you are taking care of yourself, and dialing down the emotion and fear.

It is exhausting to take care of a 14 year old with BPD traits!  I spend a lot of time focusing on staying well.  Sometimes I am up, and sometimes I give into fear and discouragement.  This board is so helpful for us to have a place to connect.  

Hope you are having a better day today!

 |iiii

Thanks everyone for your advice and kind words.  DD14 saw her therapist and seemed ok for a couple days but thinks took a bad turn today.  She woke up in a bad mood, refused to be helpful around the house and had a rage episode this afternoon because she decided she needed new shoes 30 minutes before we were to go to a baby shower.  Needless to say, i tried to validate and she escalated.  I then left her alone until the time for us to leave and she said she wouldn't be going to the shower.  I left and came home a few hours later and found that she self harmed while I was gone.  She had an appt with her psych today and seemed better again after she talked to him.  We ran to target and she asked me to get her deoderant which I did.  I told her that they didn't have the regular kind she uses so I got her an alternative.  She said o.k.  we got to checkout line 5-10 minutes later and she said she KNEW that had her kind of deoderant, that I was lying.  I was completely caught off guard.  I said lets go over and look, she refused.  Then she became argumentative over her allowance and it was chaos at the checkout.  We walked out and got into my vehicle and she started cussing me out, telling me she hated my guts, told me to shut the eff up, etc. Then she hit me... . it was the first time she got physical with me.  I couldn't believe it.  She told me she told the psych that she hated me, that she wants to go live with her dad.  I will not stand to be abused.  No one has EVER laid a hand on me.  Her father lives 1 - 1.5 hrs from me.  I had my older daughter stop at home and pick up dd14 medication and drove her straight to her fathers house.  I am at the end of my rope.  Every episode has gotten more and more intense and now it's become physical. Her dad was fine with it.  I asked him if he wants to wait to see how things go or should I go ahead and change over custody.  He said go ahead and file the papers.  I am just devastated.

urbanfan1-My heart is breaking for you. I know how hard it can be in making a decision on whether or not your child should leave your home. But, it seems this would be a consequence to her actions.

How is your daughter reacting to this decision?  Did she say anything after she hit you?

I am so sorry to hear that!  My dd has threatened to kill me, punch me, etc and this started and escalated with treatment.  (I believe that she heard war stories and them took them on because of her weak sense of self).  My daughter also things things will magically get better if she goes and lives somewhere else.  The truth is that chaos and broken relationships follow her wherever she goes, and for safety, it is vital that our kids have the mental and developmental help they need in order to succeed.  Does your ex have the ability to care for your daughter, help her, and be nonreactive to her behaviors?  Does he have any history of violence himself?

Can I tell you something?  Using the recommended techniques of de-escalation CAN trigger my daughter.  The T was telling me to "let it go" and "ignore" it while she was threatening me, and told me to call the police everytime she did this.  Well, several police calls later, and with irritated officers who lectured me IN FRONT of my daughter that they cannot be coming out to my house all the time to "do my parenting for me," I changed my plan.  The police told me that if she was physical with me, they would not arrest me if I defended myself, and that I have a right to physical discipline.  I am a pacifist, and do not believe in violence, so this angered me.  However, I realized that my daughter was taking our behavior plan as license.  She took my gentle approach as weakness, sensed a power vacuum and took over as ALPHA.  She began bullying me regularly and treating me like a bully would treat a weaker kid on the playground: insults, threats, put-downs, anything to make me feel bad.  I was physically and emotionally sick from the abuse, and the t's recs were not helping.

What did I do?  Took back my power and resumed my role as "ALPHA FEMALE" in my home.  I stood taller.  I did not flinch when she darted at me or raised a hand to me.  THe next time she told me to "Shut up, B**** or I will beat your A**!" I told her "Bring it!  Try it, but you're going down, I guarantee you!"  I advanced a half step, and she looked in my eyes and knew that I meant it.  My former Zen self was transformed into Alpha Female, and this was a turning point in our home. 

From that point on, all the physical threats stopped.  After her second treatment, she was threatening me 3-4 times a week, blocking my exit from rooms, thretening to push me down stairs, threatening to beat my head into the steering wheel when we were driving, etc.  I was living in terror in my own house, and had to have a lock installed on my bedroom door because I was afraid she would hurt me.  (She denied and the police wouldn't do anything, and the T just kept giving me the same plan that was making my dd so powerful and threatening in the house.)

Today, I feel safe in my house, and we do not have any physical showdowns.  My dd, for whatever reason, needed Mom to display alpha female behavior in order for her to have healthy boundaries.  I did this AGAINST recommendations, because my gut told me that we had a very unhealthy hierarchy in our home.  The T has since reversed her position and admitted that this was the best thing I could have done. 

I throw my story out there for your consideration.  My ex was abusive and I believe he is a narcissist, so moving in with him full time is not something I would consider.  Instead, I looked for places where she could build healthy relationships and have positive experiences.  I prayed for a mentor for my dd, and that prayer has been answered many times.  We have done youth groups, summer camps, theater, babysitting jobs, etc and this has really helped my dd display more pro-social behavior.

I just wanted to encourage you to slow down, and not make any decisions out of haste.  Your daughter has too much power right now.  She should not be calling the shots.  You and your ex should sit down and discuss a parenting plan that is best for all involved, rather than giving in to your dd's demands.  If you give in, you are teaching her that physical violence against mom gives her what she wants.

Assume your role as powerful, phenomenal Mom, and don't let her violence deter you from the wonderful job you have been doing.  Was she like this before treatment?  Is it possible she is taking this on as a new behavior she learned from the other adolescents?   If she hits you, you should call the police and press charges.  Don't even hesitate! 

If she threatens you, ignore it and stand your ground.  Show it in your body language and expressions.  If you are afraid of her, she will sense it and it will escalate her.  Calmly inform her that you will call the police if she hits you or destroys your property and DO IT.

I know what it feels like to be devastated by these behaviors, but I also know that a change in plan can turn them around!  Give it time and try something new.   You can also try a Crisis Intervention team or your county Crisis line, but I didn't find them to be of much help in the 3+ years I used them. :?  That is why my focus is on what *I* can do. 

Keep us updated!

Dear urbanfan1

I am sorry  to read your recent post. I really can simpathize with you and I have been in your shoes before. My dd16 was very much like your dd and was physically abusive towards me and my husband. Do you think she asked to go to her Dad's because she can easy manipulate him?

My dd was a lot like theplotthickens as well. Fortunately we did get support from the police when we called and that did stop her lashing out at us. We also learn how to defuse the conflict before she became violent and out of control. She is better at checking herself now but still had the tendancy of getting angry very quickly when she is stressed about other things or just had a hard day. theplotthickens - I tried kicking her back if she kicked me and that just escalated the conflict... . the one time this occurred she called the police and said I was abusing her. When the police came and told them what had happened they sat her down to and told her the we were aloowed to discipline her and that if the included physical contact then we were well within our rights. I want to say we didn't start any of these encounters with her... . she was so out of control at this time and so violent she often didn't remember hitting or kicking me. That was hard to beleive but the T said it was due to the fact that she could accept that behavior and could see herself hitting her mom she she blocked it out. All I know those were some pretty unhappy times at our home. The police helped at that moment but what help most was learning to defuse and taking a time out. Not being drawn in to her madness. It is a situation I wish on no one... . it truly was the worse time for our family and I felt helpless and so beaten down by my dd.

urbanfan1 - I think that your dd going to her dad's is a good choice. You need a break from her and your relationship is not improving. I find it hard to believe they would release your dd from RTC when she still seems to have so many issues. I hope your ex has better lucky at defusing her. I do think this might be good for you both in that you have some distance between you and that might help repair your relationship. Have you thought of going to join counseling with her?

I am sorry things are still a struggle for your dd... . she has a ways to go but I want to you to stay positive and hopeful. My dd has improved a great deal over the past couple of years... . I have learned a lot and that has also contributed to improving our relationship. Thing can and will get better... . this is a tough time for everyone but hang in there.

jellibeans, I think your experience is more typical than mine. (Just curious, when the police arrive, does your dd deny or admit?  Mine denies and convinces them that we are exaggerating and that she is fine.  She denies, minimizes and blames, and if the police don't witness the altercation, they have not been supportive.)  My dd was all about power and control, and taking advantage of the system.  If she was out of control and abuse, we tried "remove target" and left.  That taught her that she could have the house to herself and relax by being out of control and forcing us to leave.  When she got big and bad, she learned I would back off, and so she just got bigger and badder.  What will work best is something you can sense, as a parent.  I have never hit her back, but my inner willingness to defend myself physically and my willingness to take back control of my house made her threats and "badness" useless.  She doesn't try it anymore.  I do not live in fear anymore, as I did for years.  I am a mild-mannered, gentle person, while my dd is strong-willed, loud and aggressive.  So, I have had to learn to be more 'alpha' or she will not respect me.  It does not mean that I don't give her validation or empathy, it simply means that I will not have my daughter impose her will on me through physical force, violence, or through threats.  I don't mean to sound like Rambo here, but the power really needed to shift away from my dd.  Fortunately for me, she never called me on it, and she doesn't even try to physically impose her will on me anymore.  We have never been in a physical altercation, other than her punching me and throwing things at me, and preventing me from leaving a room (she is 3 inches taller than me, and outweighs me by 50lbs).  It was mostly daily threats of harm and homicide, which scared me so much, because of her anger and rages. She enjoyed that I was afraid of her.  I know she is quite capable of killing someone when she is raging.  

Now that I am not operating out of Fear, and a healthy hierarchy has been somewhat restored, I am in a much better place.

I say this to relay that there is really no such thing as a "one size fits all" treatment plan.  When you have severe ODD mixed with a mood disorder (bipolar) AND emerging BPD, you really have to get creative and think outside the box sometimes!  If one thing doesn't work, try something else, I always say.  Go with your gut, and realize that professionals are not God and do not operate with infallibility.  Some children with ODD are escalated by what they see as a shrinking violet parent.

Either way, there are a lot of options available to you, urbanfan1, and I would caution you against filing custody papers because your dd is demanding it and because she is intimidating you.  Slow it down a bit and let the emotion pass.  Is she thinking that her life will suddenly be better and all problems solved by living somewhere else?  :)o you think she is projecting her unhappiness onto you?  Is your ex emotionally and physically available?  

Hi All,

Thanks so much for your input.  As far as dad is concerned, no, I do not think sending her there is a solution or will help her but I feel like my hands are tied.  I feel tremendous guilt at wanting to stay alive rather than keep my dd14 here with me that may end up with her physically hurting me or even killing me.   This is something I've been wrestling with for over a year now.  Her dad has several mental issues and (I feel) contributed to her issues.  He is all agreeable when on the phone with me then she goes out to his house and he listens to her lies and makes me out to be a big control freak and he gives in to her.  At the last visit, we had talked beforehand and he agreed that he would not let dd14 hang out with this one specific girl in his neighborhood.  He ended up texting me this past week and told me (exact words) "She bugged me until I compromised to let (neighbor) come here to visit and then to the park but it was a small price to pay to keep the peace."  He wants to be her friend, not her parent.  I said no to a phone, laptop, coloring her hair... . she went out there and "bam" within a year she had all 3.  I should have never let her bring them into my home.  He does realize now what trouble all 3 things have been. Lukcily she got a virus on laptop -- he spent $200 to get it fixed and within 3 days she had another virus, and now the computer doesn't work.  I ended up finally getting the phone when she was admitted to hospital in January and now she is telling me I'm controlling because I won't let her have a phone.  She is just not mature enough to handle a phone.  It completely consumes her and she will spend hours and hours on it texting people to where she is not sleeping.  I tried to physically take phone from her and she WILL fight me for it.  Thankfully, the admitting nurse at hospital let me take it when they admitted her.

My parents live 9 hrs away, my sister lives near but is bipolar and the only other relative near is my (late 20's) neice and her boyfriend is a weirdo... . I would never leave my kids there.  I have been in therapy going on 4 years.  I have tried love and logic (per my therapists request), family sessions, parenting classes, reading stuff online, reading books, purchasing books, purchasing love and logic cd's.  I just feel that she does not want to help herself and I'm "beating a dead horse" for lack of better words.  She got a new T after leaving RTC and she told the T in session #1 that she "likes being mean".What is a parent to do?

She had a complete personality change from day #1 of putting her on celexa and it's been downhill ever since.  When she was in RTC they had tried 7 different mood pills for her.  Has anyone ever taken their child off all these meds and found out the medications were the cause of these problems?  The original reason I took her to psychiatrist is when she started jr. H.S. she was really having difficulties getting organized and being able to changes classes, get books from locker, etc.  It was from disorganization to full blown rage episodes.

Another problem is, I could never hit her.  Yes I did spank my kids when they were little.  For my older daughter, one tap on the bottom worked.  For dd14, it did not so I gave up.  I was not a perfect teen by any means but I never disrespected mom my, not ever!  I have also given up on reasoning with her, explaining my side of things, etc. as there is no gray area with her and she has zero empathy.  Like you theplotthickens, my daughter immediately said there were no witnesses in the car, then said I was exaggerating when I said she assaulted me.  She knows deep down that I will never hit her so I'm not sure the ALPHA thing will work with her... . also, advice from my T is to make her leave the situation, not me.  It is my house and she would love it if I left and she could relax and watch netflix and eat all day.

I have calmed down since yesterday and have decided on holding off on custody.  My ex seems a little to eager to gain custody and it's sending up a red flag for me. I pray that my dd will eventually contact me and try to work things out.  I did start getting her clothes together to send to dads house.  I found a note on her desk that she had written to me and stated she was happy she had such a supportive mom.  It must have been awhile ago that she wrote it.  She referenced the RTC and the kids there that have no parental support.  While gathering her things, the ironic thing was, I found 2 sticks of deoderant in her closet, the very thing that started this yesterday.  I know deep down it wasn't about the deoderant and if it wasn't that she would have just found something else to pick a fight over.

Hello urbanfan1,

Those are some really good points and questions from theplotthickens and jellibeans!

And even though some of those may seem to be contradictory, I don't think they are:

I'd agree that different things work for different kids. And whether it is by calling police or standing your ground in your own home - the main principle/lesson for the child remains the same: You are the adult and you are in charge and in control of your own home. You are the calm force that remains unphased and can handle the situation.

Persons w/BPD have a really poor sense of boundaries, they hate them, they fight against them. At the same time, they desperately need them and they cry for them with the out of control behaviors.

From that standpoint, they are much like toddlers - if you don't put boundaries in place, toddlers' behaviors will get more and more out of control, until they come up against that boundary. They may fight it, but they thrive in that structure, and feel safe knowing that the parent is there to provide it for them.

It's the same with our child w/BPD (emotionally, they are much like the toddlers) - they need us to provide that calm, unmoving structure that will not crumble under their threats or tantrums.

And just like with a toddler, that balance of gentle, calm AND firm does the trick. The exact how-to strategies may be different for different children, but the principle remains the same: mom/dad knows how to handle the situation, mom/dad is in control and keeps everyone safe.

And I agree that it is different for parents of minors versus parents of adult children. With minors it is appropriate and needed to control their environment, and sometimes even the child themselves when they cannot do that on their own.

I wonder jellibeans, if your physical encounter with your dd was escalating because your dd saw herself and you as equals in that situation - and mistook your behavior for her own (=getting out of control), and got scared and more triggered... . Rather than seeing you as the superior force in control of the situation.

With minors: If there is a situation that we know may happen, we need to be ready for it and ready to take charge. If we are afraid and don't know what to do, we will lose that battle every time.

If it is something that can wait, it is better to remain composed and address it later than to have a losing power-struggle on the spot.

(Cross-posted with you, urbanfan1. I hope I don't make it sound too easy and simplistic. I know it isn't. Yet, the RTC's biggest feature is that it's a controlled environment, where first and foremost it's apparent that acting out does not pay off there are set rules and rewards for cooperation. Hopefully they are also able to teach them good coping skills)

Urbanfan, we have a lot in common!  My sister is also bipolar with BPD.  

On the meds... . it can take YEARS to get them right.  Is it possible that your dd is bipolar?  Has she been tried on stimulants and raged from them?  Has she ever gotten elevated/manic?  :)o antidepressants make her irritable?

We could not have her at home without her mania being treated.  She was too dangerous.  

Since she is worsening with the Celexa, which is an SSRI, and since you have bipolar on your side, I would highly suspect bipolar disorder.  I would refuse an SSRI, and ask for a trial of a mood stabilizer.  Some docs don't like diagnosing bipolar, but I simply asked if they would be willing to TREAT bipolar symptoms.  

If the mood stabilizer helps (Lamictal is nice for mixed episodes and for kids who get depressed/cut) but aggression and/or mania remain, Seroquel or other atypical can really help with the raging/aggression.  Seroquel can be given at night, which also helps sleep issues and prevents them from running.

I would d/c SSRI's and any stimulants (has she ever been diagnosed ADHD?).  It may help to try a mood stabilizer, given family history and intolerance to Celexa.  It would be VERY HELPFUL to find out what has worked well to stabilize your sister's bipolar.  Oftentimes, what works well for one family member will work well for another. 

I am wondering about you and if you are able to find support at your home.  Is there another adult family member that can come and stay for a while?  Can you access a crisis stabilization service with in-home T?  I think you need a T that is in your home, where the primary behaviors are.  And something intensive, like 2-3 times per week to start.  Maybe it would even help if she were in some activities, summer camps, etc so that you can catch a break while retaining custody.

It sounds like you have stronger parenting skills than your ex.  If you could just find support for yourself in your home, and find a team of people (professional or not) to empower and encourage you, you can do this thing!  

Since you are asking for advice, my top priorities would be to 1) find support for myself 2) get the correct diagnosis and meds.  I am putting my money on bipolar, given  your history.  Bipolar disorder, namely mania which  manifests as extreme irritability etc, responds very well to meds, and not so much to therapy alone.  You cannot therapize mania out of a bipolar teen, though many have tried, LOL!  When the mood is stabilized, the therapy will work better.

My heart goes out to you and your daughter.  Tease out one issue at a time, and it can get better each day!

Mania Rating Scale: www.dbsalliance.org/pdfs/ChildManiaSurvey.pdf

Help and HOPE for parents (this revolutionized my parenting and outlook!) www.amazon.com/What-Works-Bipolar-Kids-Parents/dp/1593854072

Celexa was the start of it 2.5 years ago.  She has been tested twice and both times came back bipolar and BPD. She also has ADHD, anxiety and depression.  She is currently taking Adderall, Tenex, and currently weaning off zyprexa(due to weight gain) and getting her back on Geodon.

Regarding meds, why isn't she on a mood stabilizer?   If she is on Tenex, could the adderall be eliminated to reduce irritibility?  Instead of Geodon, I would consider trying Seroquel instead of Geodon because of her aggressiveness.  Just a couple ideas!  I think mood stabilization and aggression need to be addressed before the ADHD.   Adderall is horrible for irritating bipolar kids.

urbanfan1

So much to respond to I am not sure where to start so forgive me if this post is all over the place.

MEDS- I am just going to say that I don't think there is a magice pill out there I also believe that some of these meds are actually making thing worse of our kids. My dd has been on many meds over the years. She has been resistant to taking them at times and even secretly hide them for a while. I still have this battle at times when she goes to sleepover other peoples homes. She has a terrible memory and often forget to take her meds. She is on Lamictal 200mg and celexa and adderall 20mg... . this is the first time I feel these meds are helping her especially the Lamictal which is for mood. This is the one thing my dd16 struggles with. She was on prozac off and on and I really do think that med made her irritable. My dd struggles with depression, anxiety, ODD and BPD.

As far as what to do about the physical attacks... . I don't think there is one way to solve a problem and just like one med might work for one person it is also true that some kid react differently to different parenting styles. What I think is important to point out is that your dd14 age is probably driving how she behaves more that anything. We just got a new P and his honest advise was simply hold on until she is old enough and her frontal lobe has matured enough so she can make the right choices. I have changed a lot with dealing with my dd but I do think the fact she is older and has matured somewhat has also helped. So how do we get through these tough times? I do think it is a combination of things.

theplotthickens - When the police come they have supported us and usually try to scare my dd straight. They were at my home so many times it was embarassing. One of the last times they were at my home they want to take her to juvie. I had to try and convince them to please let her stay. The police do not understand mental health issues at all. I have many try to talk with her and give her advise. One officier while we were leaving the ER after we had been there all night due to an overdose tried to tell her to shape up etc... . these kind of encounter were hard to take and usually I found them pretty upsetting. My dd would often lie to the police but I had my husband and also my old daughter who could stand up for me or I for my husband. My older daughter talked many times with the police and fortunately for us she is very mature for her age and could give them the truth of what had gone on. After one encounter where she was trying to kick down my bedroom door to get at me and my husband had to wrestle her to the ground she was able to show her teachers at school the rug burns on her leg from struggling and they had to call CPS... . that was really a low point to have CPS call us and demand my husband be home because they were coming to talk and probably remove my dd from out home. After talking with us and my daughter they realized that my daughter was not truthful. They insisted we call the police the next time and that was when we adopted the policy of getting outside help. Our dd felt she had the power to make false claims and she would have been happy if we were punished in some way. She can behave very much like a terrorist and it is scary when she is in that frame of mind.

I think it is good you are delaying the custody change. I do think she is trying to split the two of you. Your ex seems to be easily fooled or just tries to do whatever to make her happy. This kind of set up is not going to work going forward if the two of you can't get on the same page.

Can you tell me how long she was at her RTC? I am trying to understand why she is behaving the way she is after she received intensive treatment.



And because my post is just not long enough I wanted to post the parents bill of rights for you

When mental illness strikes young people, their parents may experience a great deal of emotional pain.  Thresholds’ Executive Director, Dr. Jerry Dincin, in his dealings with parents noticed that they often neglected their own needs.  To help parents cope, he established this “Guilt-Free Parent’s Bill of Rights.”

1.  The right to survive.

            Parents, who are themselves getting older, often get stress related illnesses, such as high blood pressure, heart disease or migraine headaches.  Parents have a right to survive in health, even though they have a child with mental illness.

2.  The right to privacy, to lead their own lives.

            Many adult children with mental illness live with their parents.  This situation can produce an enormous strain.  Parents need their own “space”--privacy within their own home and time for themselves as a couple and for friends.

3.  The right not to go broke.

            Adult offspring can get confused as to whose money is whose.  Parents have the right not to divulge how much money they make.  They don’t have to go broke paying for their child’s care.  He or she may qualify for benefits or vocational rehabilitation.  Without this aid, parents may feel they have no choice but to support their adult child to their own financial detriment.

4.  The right not to be psychologically abused.

            Parents often think that they must give up being talked to in a courteous way.  You have the right to dignity.   Just because your child is sick, there is no excuse for him or her to abuse you.

5.  The right not to be physically abused.

            It is a crime for your child to hit you, regardless of whether he or she is sick or well.  A physically abusive child may have to be hospitalized.

6.  The right to be parents to their other children.

            Parents may be so wrapped up in the needs of a sick child that they may neglect their other children.  Try to strike a balance, meeting needs of and spending time with all of your children.

7.  The right to express their emotions.

            Parents have a right to express their feelings about their mentally ill child’s behavior.  It is healthy to say “When I hear you talk like that I become angry (or frustrated, or hurt).”  If your child is constantly abusive, unclean, or playing loud music, you need to suggest she or he move out.  You can say “Your father and I have decided to live alone together.  We will help you find a place to live.”

8.  The right to respite and vacations.

            You can take a vacation, and you do not have to take along your mentally ill adult child.

9.  The right to receive help too.

            Parents can become as ill as their children.  Their thinking may become skewed.  Parents have the right to their own psychotherapy--to see their own doctor.  You cannot take care of your mentally ill child if you are ill.

10.  The right to set house rules.

            If your child still lives at home, you have the right to set rules that will be followed.  In case of loud music playing, for example, you can require that your child use headphones.

Here is an almost complete list of things she's tried. Celexa, Atarax, topamax, concerta, Intuniv, Lexapro, cymbalta, risperidone, seraquel, Adderall, Latuda, Depakota, Lithium, prozac

She was inpatient in jan for 2 weeks then did PHP for 2 weeks.  Returned to school.  Called 911 3 weeks later and she was taken to ER because she told police she wanted to kill herself, then transfered to inpatient for 10 days and transfered to RTC was there from 3/10 to 5/7.

Honestly, I think that she is acting like this because she is desperate to get a phone.  After 1.5 years of drama with this phone, her dad and I decided to take it away.  She comes out of the hospital clinging to the hope if she is good for 2 weeks then she will get the phone back.  We had several conversations while she was in RTC that her idea of being good and meeting her responsiblities, etc. is much shorter than what her parents think is acceptable time to earn trust.  It's like she can walk the line for 2 weeks and then gives up.  I don't know if its her BPD or she is just being spoiled or a combination of both?

She is pretty consistent with taking her meds here but it's a different story at dad's.  I use to text reminders in a.m. and at night and honestly, I just cannot do it anymore.  There are 2 grown adults in the house and one 14 year old and between the 3 of them, they should be able to figure it out.  Plus, I'm burned out and I have to use the time alone to re-charge.

I did receive a call today from psychiatrists office just following up from Sat. appt and wondering how she was doing.  I told the girl exactly what has happened and she said the doctor may be calling me back.  She said he may want to see her.  Problem is, dad is over an hour away.  Anyway, I told her I don't know what to do next and I would appreciate any advice the doctor can give me.

urbanfan1

Wow that is a lot of meds and I thought my dd had been through a lot. Remind me what she is taking now?

I am glad the P is giving you support right now. I know it is hard when you have to be the one to remind about meds constantly but the alternative is that she returns to behavior that is out of control. Med changes of any kind can be very unsettling and for my dd usually lead to the ER with an overdose attempt. This was her pattern in the past but I still think if she stopped her meds today it would be a short trip to the ER.

urbanfan1... . I want to ask you if you are experiencing anxiety with your dd's return home? Since she has been home has there been tension? I am also wondering how she was released from the program when she is still very defiant and impulsive with her behavior? Have you seen her try any coping skills?

The phone has been a huge trigger for my dd too. When she returned home we started by giving her access to her phone for short times during the day. some times we would use it as an award for displaying good behavior or when we noticed her mood was good. Especially if she didn't ask for it. I want you to think about this approach... . I feel when the rules and punishment are too harsh is when our kids really tend to act out because they feel nothing they do will make the situation better so why try... . they feel hopeless. Can you try and put yourself in your dd shoes? If you returned home and nothing had changed and there were the same restrictive rules in place as before... . do you think this could be why your dd has come off the rails? I am just throwing that out there to see if there is any truth in the statement.

I know you are tired and feeling woren out from the struggles with your dd but hang in there. Try and remain calm as much as you can. Try the communication tools here to defuse the conflict... .

Sorry for the delayed response, it's been a busy week.  DD is still at dad's house.  Her stepmother has been wonderful and been keeping me updated.  I got a text from dad stating she tried to self harm on Monday because she asked him to by her a phone and he refused.  Stepmom said dad handled it very well and it did not escalate.  The problem with the phone is not only up all night texting, but she is also online, meeting boys/men, sending inappropriate pictures,etc.  She refuses to give up phone and follow curfew rules with phone.  We've been through changing wifi passwords, shutting off wifi, etc. It just seems at this point that she is just not ready for a phone.  I did allow her more time on the computer as a trade off and I also have a landline which she is allowed to use but refuses because "no one" calls people anymore.  The reason she is freaking out is she goes on meet me and meets random guys then wants to get on kik, twitter, etc. and chat with them.  I would have no problem with the phone if she could follow the rules, but she cannot. 

As far as rebuilding our relationship and talking with her dad, they have moved forward with setting her up with a P out there but could not get an appointment until late July so we are going to have to drive her back and forth to her P here for awhile.  We've also decided to set her up with a therapist (DBT) out there and then we are going to find a family therapist 1/2 way between our homes and work on the family portion with all of us together.  Being on the same page and using the same tools will be good for everyone, especially DD.

Stepmom also suggested that dd and I write weekly, postive letters to each other which sounds like an excellent idea to me.  They have also found a place for her to volunteer with animals which she will love.

I am trying to get over the guilt that I feel being unable to take care of my own daughter but out at dad's, they have him and stepmom and also a stepsister that stays with dd during the day while adults are at work. They are better equipped to handle her at this point but it doesn't make things easier for me.

urbanfan1-

I have been following your threads, our stories are very similar. My BPDD16 alternates every other week with her father. Up until 3 months ago, she has been with me pretty much full time her entire life (every other weekend at her dad's).

It was a tough decision to switch to 50/50 custody, but it has worked out well. I, like you, had so much guilt. I felt guilty not wanting her at my home full-time. Guilty that I enjoyed the time when she wasn't here. Guilty that I couldn't parent her "good enough".  It has worked out for us. I is definitely not what I had imagined would happen, but it is the hand I have been dealt. I have done what I can, up to this point, and it sounds like you have too. Guilt can hold us back from healing.

In the beginning, I did wonder what/how she was doing, but I have let that go. Not that I don't care and don't check in with her, because I do, but just taking a break from the constant chaos for all of us has been helpful. It has gotten easier as time goes by, and the decrease of stress is so refreshing!

I totally get what you are saying about the phone. I hate those damn things and I think they are like poison to kids with BPD traits. Some teens may be fine with them and use them responsibly, but kids with BPD are so impulsive that danger/trigger can be a text away.

I think you and your ex have a great plan in place. The family therapy is a wonderful idea. I wish my ex would participate in family therapy, I think if he had, it could have saved all of us much pain.

Do you guys have any visitation figured out?

Hi mama72--This board has been so helpful knowing I'm not alone.  We have not worked anything out for visitation.  We are just not at that point yet.  Today was a week since the blow up and I text dad and asked for dd to call me.  She did and it was a very short conversation.  I just felt that I had to make the 1st move because she is so stubborn.  I just asked her if she was ok and if everything was going good and she said she/everything was fine.  I just said that was good and then told her I loved her and that was the end of the conversation.  We have a long way to go until we start with visits.  I may have to take her to her P appt next week and then I mentioned to her step mom that I may take her to lunch depending on how it goes.  I'm pretty sure they will be flexible with visits, we've never really had a problem with that.

I'm glad to hear you guys are 50/50 because I was wondering if it may be best for my dd to do school here and then go to dads on weekend.  Everything is going to be based on the family sessions.

I am trying to keep busy, especially now being alone -- I'm now an "empty nester".  I did sign up for a class at the local jr college and start monday!  I'm really looking forward to this. 

That is awesome news that your ex and his wife are good in cooperating with you on this. I agree that doing anything legally regarding the custody might be too soon.

My main impression is that if all three of you (your ex, his wife and you) can agree on a plan and be on the same page (basically working out a set schedule and rules), your dd will not be able to manipulate the visitation schedule and "divide and conquer" so to speak, and leave dad's when she is upset or leave your place when she wants to get her way. At the same time, you would all get much needed breaks and some alone time to re-charge.

|iiii Congratulations on enrolling in the class! I am sure it will be a rewarding and fun experience.

Hi urbanfan!

What a lot of change in a short period of time!  I, too, will soon be an empty nester and will be trying to figure out what to do with my life. 

My daughter says so many hurtful, hateful things to me that it is hard to believe that she may love me somewhere deep down.  I sense that you feel the pain of your daughter's rejection and problems deeply, like many of us do!  No matter how your daughter behaves or what she says, you are an important part of her life and you have done the best you could.  You are a good mom and I hope that everything works out with this new arrangement!   Hopefully you can all get on the same page and work together.  Our BPD kids are a handful, so say the least.

Wishing you peace.

I am the mother of a d34, who basically ran wild since age 14.  She briefly underwent counseling, refused medication, thought then as now that she knows better than anyone. 

I recently underwent counseling for a about year to learn how to set boundaries with her.  Two years later, I'm where chooselove is (almost).  Remarkably, detaching is an oddly comforting skill and the choice to maintain your composure and not allow yourself to be drawn in is empowering; however, it is so tiring to sidestep the casts without being hooked every time I meet with her, so I limit my time with her, but when I leave to return home, I'm worn out.

My daughter has been able to support herself for the last two years on her inheritance from her father, who unexpectedly passed away at age 56.  As would have been expected, she blew through the money.  Her rent is currently paid (through the remaining dollars of the estate) through August and recently, she did find herself a roommate, who will pay half the rent each month.  She has a son(2), who lives between her home and his dad's father's home, a real "catch" who hasn't had a job in three years, although he cares for their son when she works (although her jobs never seem to last long term).

I dread the end of August, wondering if she will have her half of the rent for September and in fact, will she have a roommate (considering she's been through one).  How I try to detach myself from that worry, is I just say something like you are a grown women, I'm certain you can figure it out.

I try not to worry that she will be on the street, but one thing is certain, she cannot live with me.  That situation ended seven years ago, when I finally made her leave.  So, my question is, how to best detach from thinking about what could happen in August?  Honestly, I believe my daughter is more detached than myself about the "what coulds", as she definitely lives in the moment!

I also hate holidays and have major boundaries in place, particularly for Christmas.  Again, limiting time, having an activity scheduled sometime during the day, really helps.  My son spent last Christmas with his girlfriend's family (who live in another town) and that was the best gift I received in a long time!

I believe she has made some progress; however, two steps forward, three steps back, i.e., every time she phones, I know something is up, that she needs something, will she tantrum or act crazy or put herself in unsafe positions, as so happened a month or two ago, she was mugged, hit in the head, I never learned what really happened.

It's tough witnessing someone you care about live a desperate life.

Thank you for listening.