BPDFamily.com

Thanks to all my wingmen... . and women out there.  Please keep it coming.

I think there is someway they can post a link to this new thread... that goes to the old thread... . to keep it together or easier to access.

If the board guys can do that... . I'd appricate it.

Answers to the thread that is copied and pasted below

I should have been a bit more clear on the counseling thing.  DSS is requiring that this continue... . and the family guy is going to work with parents individually as well. 

In the one session we had with him (find my old thread on the "ambush" counseling) the told us that the issues with the family are as a result of our (hubby and wife dysfunction).  And said he needed to deal with us 1 on 1 to get a better understanding of what is going on.

She volunteered me to go first... . and she is right after.  I'm going to make sure the appointment for her is scheduled when I go in next Tuesday.

So... in that respect... . she is stuck.  Either she bolts and DSS notices she is not complying... . or she deals with the counselor 1 on 1.  In the 5 years of this drama... . that has never happened. 

So... . I don't predict a quick victory... . but I do realize that we are heading into uncharted waters were "something" will happen.

What I see being set up in her mind is that she will have to pick between control of "her" kids... . (not wanting to mess up DSS) or  picking control of people getting close to her psych issues. 

Thanks again for all the help and keep it coming on the new thread.


With all due respect, I think you may have the wrong goal.

Counseling for all is a very good thing, and it's very valid to look for a way to make sure the kids are getting the help they need - which means confidentiality between each child and the counselor.  It's also very valid to look for ways to help your wife get the help she needs.

Family counseling - everybody together - won't work, because your wife won't be able to participate honestly and constructively until she has been effectively treated.  That means years of intensive talk-therapy for her;  then she might be able to take part in constructive sessions with you and/or the kids.

She presumably has BPD or some other serious disorder.  It can only be treated when it has been diagnosed, and when she has decided that she wants to accept help.

My suggestion for you would be to shift your objectives to things that are more-or-less in your control, which will require you to understand much better how things work where you live (legal stuff I mean).

First, I think it is most important for you to get a court order establishing regular time with the kids.  The longer you are separated from the kids, the worse the alienation will be, and the harder it will be to re-establish good relationships with them.

Second, I think you should focus on getting objective psych evals of both parents, probably as part of a Custody Evaluation.  That will lift this from the mud you are in now - the DSS process which is obviously not thorough, professional or objective - to the level of an objective and thorough evaluation by an experienced professional.  A Ph.D. psychologist who has experience with situations like yours will see through your wife's BS and manipulations of the kids, and will look at all the information available, including the audio evidence.

You can make it go better by gathering all the relevant information to give to the CE when she is appointed.

I think you are still looking for a way to fix this quickly - maybe a few sessions of family therapy for example - and you are far, far beyond that point.

Here's your previous thread:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=226257.0

Just FYI, you can do that by going to the previous thread, and copying the URL in the top of your browser;  then come back to this thread and paste it into your post.

So... . one-on-one counseling for each of the parents could lead to your wife getting the help she needs.  I think you are right to follow through with this, because it might work, and because you will be seen as cooperative and committed.

A couple thoughts about how you could trip up... .

One is, you can be seen as taking no responsibility for the situation.  Many counselors assume that problems between spouses must be both parties' fault equally;  or they may say, "You both played roles in getting to this point and you both need to make changes to make things better."  That's true, as far as it goes, but it assumes that both parties are somewhat healthy psychologically;  if one party has BPD or something similar, but has not been diagnosed and is not getting the appropriate treatment, the other party cannot make the relationship work.  It's very possible she is not able to be in a functional relationship.

But you can't win by arguing with them.  Best to participate in a positive way, and take in what the counselor says, and genuinely look for things you can do to make things better.  You will probably learn some good things along the way.

Just don't think that the relationship will be fixed by this method.  And keep looking for a way to inject into the conversation - especially when you are talking one-on-one with the counselor - the concept that one party or the other may have a problem that needs to be diagnosed and treated.  Is that possible?  How can that be determined?  Can the marriage be fixed before that kind of problem is diagnosed and treated?

And look for ways to keep the focus on behaviors - what you did and what she did, and more importantly, what you both will be doing in the future.  This may lead to some of the things you have mentioned - a rock-solid agreement between you that there will be no corporal punishment, for example, and a rock-solid schedule for parenting time.

I would suggest you not consider living with your wife again, until she has been diagnosed and treated successfully, and you are sure that neither you nor the kids are at risk.  You will be depriving yourself and the kids of the opportunity to have a quiet, safe home, by having only one home with an adult in it who is prone to acting out.

"What I see being set up in her mind is that she will have to pick between control of "her" kids... . (not wanting to mess up DSS) or  picking control of people getting close to her psych issues." - I don't understand what you are saying here.  Can you please explain it another way... . ?

 

"What I see being set up in her mind is that she will have to pick between control of "her" kids... . (not wanting to mess up DSS) or  picking control of people getting close to her psych issues." - I don't understand what you are saying here.  Can you please explain it another


Yeah... ok... . before she was able to storm out on her counselor with no consequences... . other than those that I could impose... . basically nothing.

Now... . if she storms out on a counselor she is "not complying with" her counselor and DSS will take a harder look... . which could affect her time with the kids.

She obviously doesn't want anyone to find out about the borderline thing... . because she has stormed out before... . if she can't storm out because of fear of DSS... . then the borderline thing gets exposed.  And then there is no denying it.

So... right now that's the biggest thing that I can hang my hat on... .

How will "the borderline thing" be "exposed"?

My own experience with marriage counselors - four of them over the years, all chosen by my wife - was that the first three all took the "balanced" approach.  They counseled "better communication", which was great, and "both parties need to look at their roles in the problem", which is also fine.  None of them went anywhere near the subject of diagnosable psychological disorders.  Nothing was accomplished - a bunch of talk but nothing changed.

The fourth one surprised me.  Like yours, she met with both of us, and then with each of us separately.  When she and I talked, she told me she thought my wife might have BPD - I had never heard of BPD - and she suggested I read "Stop Walking On Eggshells".  That was a breakthrough for me, but not for my wife.  Ultimately it became clear that she was not interested in working on herself in any way, and I ended counseling, and proceeded with the divorce.

So it's not impossible that something worthwhile could come from family counseling or couples counseling, but I think it's more likely to be weak and "balanced", unless you can get the counselor to require you both to take the MMPI-2.

She will have to stay and face a counselor calling her out on being borderline... . or on a ridiculous behavior at some point.

This is a "family counselor"... . but he is going to work individually with each of us...

At some point every counselor has hit topics close to home and trigger her... . that is how it will be exposed.

Stay focused on your ultimate goal; don't focus too much on specific battles or items that (might or might not) ultimately help you achieve what you want. I see your goal is to protect and care for your children. You may desire some things for/with your wife, but I see your first focus on your children.

Therapy for your children or wife might help... . or might be ineffective. Don't hang all your hopes on a golden bullet here.

Official or public disclosure of your wife's behavior or diagnosis isn't a golden bullet either. Once again, it could be helpful, but it alone won't do anything for your children.

There is a good chance that you will need to go to court to get custody/visitation with your children.

I still think you are doing the right thing putting effort into therapy, as it will help your credibility later... . and your wife's actions and/or diagnosis may work against her.

Is there a timeline for resolving the "temporary" DSS order keeping you out of the house?

I see getting back to spending time with your children as key to your goals. (Spending more time with your wife seems to be more risky.)

I did get the recording of the spanking and the coaching to the case worker at the next door county.

She is reviewing it.  There is some talk of interviews for everyone being over no later that Wed of next week.

I suppose the only thing that a face of with a counselor... . that she would have to accept... . is that it could finally pierce the nothing wrong with me shell... it's all you. 

Although... . my guess is she follows up with... . but it's not as bad as what you have... have done.

It's OK for us here to talk about "borderline traits" or "borderline behavior" or say that someone is "BPDish" - shorthand for "she is doing stuff that fits with what I know about BPD".

We use the term "uBPD" to mean someone who hasn't been diagnosed but seems to act like what we've heard about BPD.

It's another thing altogether, when you are sitting with a counselor, to suggest that your wife has BPD.  That probably won't have good results.

First, because you aren't qualified to diagnose her (and neither is anyone here).

Second, because if you had a Ph.D. in psychology, it would still be unethical for you to diagnose someone with whom you are personally involved.

Finally, using terms like BPD, or any other medical term, might sound like you are saying "she's bad and I'm good".  Even if that is objectively true - if you could show very clearly that she has acted wrongly and you haven't - it's not what most counselors want to hear.  They don't want to be prosecutors or judges.  They want to help you solve your problems through better communication.

So... . I'd strongly suggest you be careful about even mentioning BPD or any other medical term.

That doesn't mean you can't find a way to inject such an idea into the conversation.  But you may need to gently work toward a process that will make a diagnosis possible;  for example, if you can find out how the counseling process works - how many sessions, and what kind of outcome is expected - maybe there is a way to get the counselor to recommend that both parents take an objective psych eval like the MMPI-2.  Focus on the process (objective psych evals of both parents), not the outcome you expect or think is likely (your wife has BPD).

You can ask questions like, "Is it possible that either or both of us could have a problem that will make it impossible to make the marriage work, but maybe something that could be treated?  How can we find out if either or both of us should be getting some form of treatment?" etc.

I think it may also be fair - very carefully - to say, "I have heard from the kids that Ms. Flier has said things that sounded very depressed and maybe suicidal.  I'm concerned for her and the kids - if she has the kids without supervision, and if she is under a lot of stress, something very bad could happen.  What can we do to minimize that risk?"

Try not to sound like you are attacking her, or trying to win at her expense.

Let me give you a parallel example... .

Sometimes a member here will be dealing with someone who drinks a lot.  He may say, "She's an alcoholic!".  Maybe she is an alcoholic, but she hasn't been diagnosed by a doctor.  And being an alcoholic is not a crime;  in fact, the counselor or the judge on the case might be a recovering alcoholic.  It's a medical condition which can be treated.

So instead of saying "She's an alcoholic so I should have the kids!", he could ask for both parents to take drug/alcohol screening tests, and if her results show lots of drinking, then a reasonable solution might be a temporary shift in custody while she deals with that problem.  (And he may believe that she won't deal with it well, so the temporary change will become permanent.)

Try to look at it in an objective way, from the counselor's point of view, not a win/lose approach, while still expressing your valid concerns about the kids' wellbeing.

First, professionals though they are, they are still human beings, with their own unique styles. I've seen and heard of enough mental health professionals who have widely varying personal ways they approach therapy. Second, if a therapist has any experience dealing with PDs, a disorder dX isn't likely to "called out" so blatantly. With a Borderline, it can trigger intense reactions and bad behaviors. For instance, I talked with a T in the same HMO my uBPDx and I both have. I was told that they will not reveal the dX to a patient they suspect is BPD, but that they will gently work towards referring them to DBT. This can be a very long process, too, if a therapist can even get to that point, even assume a willing patient.

At my first session with my custody evaluator, he bluntly told me he wasn't there to diagnose anyone, just to recommend custody and parenting to the court.  Sure enough, the initial report didn't mention anything abuse a diagnosis or even mention of "personality disorders".  He did mention her tangential thinking.  He did mention she delayed the report when she insisted on answering test questions in her FOO (family of origin) language despite being born in USA, living in USA half her childhood and never leaving the USA since we married some 15 years prior.  Oh, and she was certified to be both a medical and legal translator.   However, that paled into insignificance next to his summary statement that she could not share 'her' child but father could and she should lose her temp custody immediately.

Yes there are some high profile cases that get publicized in the news where a spouse or parent is diagnosed BPD but it seems most members here don't report a spouse or ex-spouse with a diagnosis and of those who do they are often described as troubled and low-functioning, in and out of jails, hospitals or mental health programs.  In other words, that smaller percentage have a long history of encounters with the police, hospitals and social services.

In the past there was another reason for not making a diagnosis or making an alternate one of Bipolar, PTSD, etc... . insurance companies would refuse to pay for long term therapy since Borderline had been considered largely untreatable.  That may have changed now, but you still can't count on getting a diagnosis.  Courts and the professional generally instead look at the behaviors and behavior patterns.  You should do likewise.  Don't "play doctor".  Focus on documenting the behaviors and behavior patterns.

The counselor who told me about BPD - she didn't diagnose my wife, she just read the BPD section of the DSM (diagnostic and statistical manual of the American Psychiatric Institute, or something like that) to me, and asked me, ":)oes that sound like Mrs. Matt?".  She told me that she was not qualified to diagnose anybody, and a meaningful diagnosis would require testing.

She also told me that she would not mention BPD to my wife, and that I shouldn't mention it either.

Later, after I gave up on counseling and moved forward with the divorce, I disclosed all this to my lawyer, and it was a topic of the Custody Evaluation.  But at the stage you are at, I would be amazed if the counselor would "call out" anybody for anything.

And remember, having BPD is not a choice someone has made.  It's a disorder that is believed to be linked to emotional trauma - like a feeling of abandonment - in childhood.  For example, my wife's mother died when she was a baby, and her father drank, and took his kids to live with relatives of a different race, in a different state - a pretty difficult thing for a child to understand.

So, although my wife's behavior has been very harmful to me and the kids (and to her too), and I do think she should take responsibility for it and get treatment, when it was diagnosed nobody "called her out" for it - just the opposite.  It was buried in a long report from the Custody Evaluator, and I was told not to mention it directly (though it was a critical factor in figuring out what's best for the kids).

So... . careful how you talk about BPD to anybody but your attorney (or your friends here)!

I'm going to agree with the other posts here 100%. Don't start labeling her borderline with DSS or the courts unless you have a diagnosis in hand. But the good news (well, in a way of thinking, anyway) is that is that BPDs' behaviors are often so off-the-rails bad that no one needs to see a specific diagnosis to figure out that something is wrong. Since stressful situations are a huge trigger for these folks, and a high conflict divorce is nonstop stress, I wouldn't be surprised if your wife does something to completely, utterly blow it. With my ex, it was stuff like not sending the kids to school, housing instability, and deplorable living conditions. And she did that all on her own.

By the time all was said and done, no one needed a BPD diagnosis to know she was the wrong candidate for primary custody.

Keep close tabs on your kids and make sure you're there if they need you. And hang in there! I've said this before and I'll say it again: high conflict divorces are WARS, and if wars were won after the first battle, we'd be singing "God Save The Queen" before baseball games.

Super-good point.  One strategy is to look for ways to put the person with BPD under stress, in front of a judge or another neutral professional, so her behavior will come out.  (Not a strategy to fix the marriage of course - a strategy to get her issues out in the open so you can get to the best outcome for the kids.)

The hard part is watching your kids suffer through it. Having to sit by while my BPDx allowed my D17 to sit out her entire freshman year, and half her sophomore year, of high school, was unbelievably hard to do. She had her enrolled in an online school, and wouldn't you know it, there were just zillions of excuses why she couldn't attend - computer wasn't working, Internet was out, it was Tuesday... . you name it. I work out of my home, and have perfectly good internet and a laptop she could have used, but amazingly enough, "mom" didn't avail herself of that opportunity. She had temporary custody - there was not much I could do but sit back and watch the train wreck unfold. Sad that this is how it had to play out, but the kid was able to get back on track, and just graduated high school on time last week. She's starting college in the fall. Kids are pretty resilient creatures.

This is probably the hardest and most important lesson for members who are teetering on divorce. When kids aren't involved, spouses can emotionally detach on their own timeline without a bunch of professionals sitting in the front row watching. But when kids are involved, suddenly your ability to manage your emotions takes on a lot more urgency.

Basically, you have to work on being detached when you probably are the furthest from feeling that way.

Courts do not care how you feel about your wife, whether you love her/hate her, whether she is mean to you, whether you walk out on her in church, whether she storms out of therapy, whether she lies to you, etc. They. Just. Don't. Care. The courts are not judging which one of you is causing marital problems.

What they're watching is who is the grown-up who can focus on what is best for the kids.

Of course, those of us here care about the behavior of the BPD spouse. We care a lot. And we know that the BPD behaviors impacts the kids. But the court system is woefully ignorant about BPD.

Documenting a pattern of behavior is more important than having a diagnosis. That doesn't mean you don't want the BPD diagnosed, it just means that there are a lot of factors at work, and the diagnosis is just one of them. The words BPD should never leave your lips until someone who is trained to diagnose it does so. Otherwise it looks like you are gunning for your wife. Your job is to focus on the kids, take care of your self, keep your emotions in check, and document the pattern of behavior that worries you -- and only in relation to how it impacts the kids.

It's a tall order.

If you tend to react angrily, or lose your temper, or do impulsive things you regret later -- figure out a system that will help you center yourself before taking any action. I think I walked 3,000 miles in an effort to do this. It helped prevent me from writing any emails to my ex. As a result, I had over 10K angry abusive emails from him, and he had none from me.

Calling her out on her BPD behavior

I probably created some confusion by using this phrase.  I like the phrase "putting her under stress" so it will come out.

I never envisioned someone saying... . ahhh haaaa... you have BPD.  What normally happens is uBPDw says something ridiculous... such as "He has a plan to emotionally abuse me and Make me feel bad.  I then say something like how could you accuse me of emotional abuse... give an example.  She then says... . "I never said you emotionally abuse me".

Counselor then says "Mrs Formflier... . yes you did just say that... . i sat right here and listened to you say it about 2 minutes ago".

Mrs formflier gets up and stomps around the room claiming the counselor always takes my side.  She's not going to put up with this any more... . and I will never be in this room with you two again  Wham... the door slams... . and out she goes.

Anyone think I made that up?

That would be something that I would consider "calling out".  So... she will either have to control herself better... . or... . hand over some ammo to DSS and other authorities by walking out.  I would be shocked if she can hold it together for too long with the same counselor.

One final note that I count as a blessing.  My uBPDw is pretty high functioning.  So... . in the short run I don't see anything too weird happning such as refusing to get medical treatment, taking kids out of school and that kind of thing.  I will watch and pay attention.

I say this is a blessing because I talked to a buddy of mine (squadron mate from long time ago) that "proved" his ex wife unfit and he was awarded sole custody.  At least that is the story I heard.  He explained to me that he didn't prove anything.  He just kept carefuly records... . watched and reported... . and she proved herself incompetent.  The sucky thing was that their kid suffered through it as she did all kinds of whacky things like not getting him medical care.

Yep... . I have had several conversations... . one with the VA Psychologist... . about what I need to focus on and do that I don't fit the stereotype of the angry service man with untreated PTSD.

The VA also helped me put this in perspective and gave me some advice on how to speak to my PTSD if it is brought up as a "bad thing"

They stressed that it is neither a good or bad thing... . it is an wound that you recieved while serving your country in a time of war.  None of that makes you a bad parent or husband.  If the record showed that your refused treatment for that or you somehow didn't follow doctors orders... . then people might be able to make the argument that your refusal or mistreatment could be a basis for a custody issue... . but never the original wound. 

They followed up by saying that there is nothing in my record on my interaction with any of them that would make them want to write any statement about me not following treatment or being a risk as a care taker of my children.


Final editorial statment for today... . since I mentioned the VA.  I have recieve excellent care for all of my issues from them.  I honestly don't get what the current scandal is about that seems to be in the news.

Not to get side-tracked, but last week a report was issued, which backed up what several "whistleblowers" had said - people who work for the VA.  What the Inspector General's report showed was that thousands of veterans had not been seen in a timely way - in some cases, after months of waiting, they were never seen at all - and some of them had died as a result.

And dozens of VA facilities around the country had created false records, showing that all vets were being seen within 2 weeks.  So the problem didn't get fixed because it was covered up.

But I'm glad you got good care.  And my thanks for your service!

Back to the subject at hand... .

It can be a very good thing to put someone who has BPD under stress, when her behavior can be seen by a judge, Custody Evaluator, etc.  Many of us have experienced this working in our favor;  the person with BPD acts out and everyone in the room - including her own attorney - then "gets it".

But you need to be careful when and how you do that.

If you do it in court, your attorney can be the bad guy.

But if you do it in counseling, you have to do it yourself, and you might look just as bad as the other party.  The counselor might conclude that something you're doing is "triggering" her, and that by doing that you are partly responsible for her behavior.

I'm not agreeing with that - I think adults are responsible for their behavior and it's not my job to figure out the exact right things to say or not say so my ex won't act out.  But that's me.

It might be best to let the counselor take the lead, and be prepared to speak for and about yourself, and let the other party do the same.  For example, it might be good to be prepared to state very clearly what are your goals now - is it to fix the marriage?  Or to disengage from the relationship and focus on protecting the kids?  Or some other goals that you can state very clearly.

Same with boundaries - it might be helpful to think through and be prepared to state boundaries you have decided are right for you.  For example, "I will not be threatened or bullied.  If you speak to me inappropriately, I will end the conversation and communicate with you only by e-mail."  Or "I will not be where you are unless there are other adults around.  I will not come into your home or allow you into my home until I am sure you aren't going to act out."  Just examples - not saying that's what's right for you.

About PTSD... . I think you're getting good advice about how to think about it.  Let me give you my experience which is kind of parallel.

When we had our psych evals, mine came back with no disorders, but an indication that I was at high risk for addiction.  This was a surprise to me, since I wasn't drinking or using any other drugs, so I asked the psychologist about it, and he said it reflected my personality - people who scored on the MMPI-2 similar to me have a high incidence of addiction.  I asked what I should do about it and he said, "Well you're not drinking or using drugs, right?  And you're seeing a counselor regularly, right?  So keep doing exactly what you're doing."  In the custody case, this was a positive for me, because it showed that I was taking responsibility and taking care of myself, in contrast to my wife, who was diagnosed with "multiple psychological disorders" but refused treatment.

So... . you were wounded serving your country, and you have gotten the right treatment, and you're doing fine.  If there is any indication that the other side is trying to make an issue of this, you and your lawyer should be very well prepared to take them on very openly - not defensive at all - "My client is handling this issue exactly as he has been advised to do, and there is no evidence that it is negatively impacting the kids at all."

The PTSD story has been spread all over the family... . as the reason for all our difficulties.  I don't hide PTSD... . but I don't advertise it either.  uBPDw was the one that spread it around.  Also... there was one "incident" a couple years ago where 911 was called on me.  I had driven all day while for most of the day my uBPDw sleep as did rest of family.  Long trip.

We get home... . and fairly quickly I'm interested in going to bed... . of course she is wide awake and ready to b___ and moan about something... . no gratitude for trip or driving.  There must have been a lull in conversation... . but I doze off... who knows how long.  It's all pretty fuzzy... . but she apparently is griping about how much I hate her... . despise her... etc etc... .   She right next to me... . or looking down on me... . again it's fuzzy... . but as I jerk up from being asleep... . I may... or may not have touched her at the same time I start hollering at her to shut her mouth (I probably put some more color to it than that)... .   I kept hollering at her to get out of room... . Can't remember if she left and called... . or called from the room.  Deputies showed up... . verified no injuries... . and asked if I would mind leaving.  I was worn out... . and went to a hotel to sleep.

Apparently several kids heard the commotion but stayed in their rooms.  So the story most likely is that mommy was normal but daddy flipped out on mommy... . poor mommy.  Or some such story.

My anger issues come out of loss of sleep.  PTSD affects my sleep... . as do some other disability issues I have... . so tossing a wife in there with BPD traits is no good.

Before I knew about BPD it was obvious to me that I would just have to ignore the late night thing... . and it had got much... much better.  But would occasionally still come up.  I normally just wait it out... . and with no response it goes away in a few minutes.

Last... . I do need to do some clear thinking about limits... . what I will and won't accept.

I don't think any of that matters because without her addressing whatever the issues are... . I don't see me going back to her.

Concerning the 911 incident two years ago, I would suggest you contacting the sheriff's office to see if a report was ever generated.  Something to add to your documentation.  A lot of documenting is being able to correct an untruthful statement quickly, before all that is remembered is that Mrs. Flier had to call 911 on you. 

Going forward, are you now able to protect your sleep from this type of interruption? Are you either at your parents' house or in your own room, maybe with a lock, back at home? You might start feeling stronger soon, if you can protect yourself in this critical way.

It kind of sounds like you returned to a "war at home," and it might be especially difficult for veterans to recognize domestic abuse when they've been through wars of nations.

Getting healing sleep must be a major recommendation for recovery from PTSD, no?

Regarding the 911 call... .

Quite a few of us have been accused of something.  In your case there were no criminal charges, which is very good.  I like Catnap's idea about getting a copy of the "incident report" - that's what it's called where I live.  I had to pay $5 and wait a few days, and when I got it, it had been redacted - my kids' names were blacked out, which was ridiculous since I already know my own kids' names.  But the report was super-helpful to me - it proved that my wife was lying.

In your case, the report might not prove anything, but it will at least not prove anything;  that is, if the incident is brought up by the other party, you can say, "Here's the police report.  It shows that there was no evidence I did anything wrong."  You might even be able to turn it around and use it to your benefit:  "Mrs. Flier called 911 and made false accusations which caused a lot of stress for the kids and me.  We need psych evals to find out why she does stuff like that."

It sounds to me like you have a good understanding of your issues, and you are able to manage them well.  Part of managing your issues may be, don't be around people who get in your face when you're tired.  Now you have identified someone who does that - your wife - so you can decide not to be around her when you're tired.

Formflier,

I'm trying to understand how DSS is working in your case. In your original thread when things were unraveling, you wrote:


What does signing the safety plan mean -- does it mean that you and your wife agree that the kids were not safe?

Did the social worker assigned to your case let you see the scoring and rubrics to determine the safety/risk assessment?

EDIT: Also, did the social worker ask if either parent had a mental health diagnoses?



 

And this would be an example of why this board is so incredibly valuable to me.

I hadn't thought of that.  Will try to get copies of those reports.

I am so happy I can come on this forum and ask questions, as I remember incidents I can relate them... and then I can answer questions of those that have... . unfortunately... . done this before me.

Thanks catnap!

Right now I am at my parents house.  So... totally good with sleep here.  If I do ever move back home... yeah... that is something to address.  I had mad the middle of the night thing about 90% better through limits... basically ignoring it.

I agree aobut the war at home thing.  Even worse though... is that you never knew if you were dealing with enemy or friend.  In all seriousness... . up until just recently... . the good outweighed the bad.  I may not still be thinking clearly about that... . and that is something I really need to spend some time doing... before... . or if... . I ever choose to go back.

About sleep and PTSD... . yes... sleep is always good... for everyone.  In my particular case... . sleep is where PTSD "presents".  My hyperarousal ... . if I said that right... . happens due to sound while I'm sleeping.  So... . some noise happens... . my brain "switches me to alert"... . and I wake up.  Luckily... . during the day... I don't seem to have any triggers.  Loud noises... people... .  

I can also have some lovely dreams sometime... .

Well... . they have a drug for high blood pressure that they have also found works well for PTSD.  Prazosin somehow makes it so that I don't do the hyper arousal thing in my sleep.  I have normal blood pressure... luckily... so it lowers it to below normal.  Soo... . I have to make sure I get up slowly.

Exactly... .

I had become unapologetic for just going to bed.  Sometimes if it was a tough day and she was grumbly or worse... I wouldn't even tell her... I would just go.  Sometimes if I tried to tell her... that would trigger and argument.

It's only been in the last few years that the sleep stuff has really flared up.  This is where there may be some legitimate complain on her... . or any spouses part... . about having to deal with disabilities that appear later in life.  Especially ones that you can't readily "see". 

Not trying to excuse her... . but I'm sure my not being able to be as flexible with her as I used to be in the past probably help "trigger" her more.

My dad was in Korea.  He flew a MASH helicopter, like the one at the start of the TV show.

Til he died, he hated loud noises.  Would never go to fireworks on the 4th.

I don't know if that kind of stuff can be treated somehow - some form of talk therapy... . ?

I hope you don't have to be on meds long-term... .

It's pretty common for someone with BPD to try to keep you from sleeping.  Not sure exactly why but lots of us have had that experience a little or a lot.  With me it wasn't a big factor but it happened.  A pretty clear sign of something screwed up when somebody won't just let you sleep when you need to.

That makes two of us trying to figure this out! :)

Safety plan:  This was a document that my wife and I signed at the end of our assessment.  The assessment is where we drove down to the building at night and the kids were interviewed and the parents were informed.

It seems that this is an initial document that says... . while the investigation is going on... . this is what needs to happen to keep everyone safe.

There were two things put down.

I leave the home.

We both "comply with our counselors"

I tried to get no corporal punishment put on there... . they refused.


I don't think there was a formal scoring done... . just interviews and judgement calls.  That is my assumption... . and I didn't ask if otherwise.

They didn't formally ask about either of us having conditions... . but the PTSD thing was mentioned by some of my kids.

So it was discussed.

I too feel you show a number of signs of resilient mental health. And if you are already able to contemplate the fact that your thinking may continue to evolve as you move forward, that's a very good sign indeed. |iiii

(And my dad was on a submarine in the South Pacific in World War II. . . . You guys have really experienced some stuff.)

Yeah... . I have done some talk therapy for mine... . but most of that was to get "strategies" that I use when I wake up from a dream or a noise.

Basically focus on what is real and not real... .   Deep breathing... . relax... .  

This is also where another disability helps.  I have to wear a CPAP... so I have he darth vader noise to mask some other outside noises... and it gives my something to focus on that is rhythmic and help me relax and go back to sleep.

Sounds like you Dad had a more "classic" sensitivity to noise.  Lots of guys hate noise like that.  Lots of infantry types are always looking at things... . (trying to figure out if there is a roadside bomb... or something like that)  The basic thought is that your brain becomes so hardwired to help you survive... . that is doesn't turn off easy when you get back home and there is no real danger.  Your brain didn't get the memo.

Thanks for the encouragement.

If the subject ever comes up... . I don't hide from talking about mental health or my "stuff"... but I don't advertise it.  However... the advice I pass on to people is to stay ahead of it.  Also... if you have an inkling that something is wrong... . just go get checked... . it's no big deal.

When I first when to see a psychiatrist at some point he was sort of trying to tenderly ask if I cared what the "label" was.  I suppose some don't want to wear a PTSD labe.    I quickly told him that I don't care what you call it... . I'm more interested in what affect is has on me... . and what I can do to manage it.

I've been knocking around the mental health world now for... 3 years or so.  I really should have gone in sooner.  I pretty much knew that some stuff wasn't right... but I was trying to tough it out or hope it would go away.  Plus... there was some fear of loosing flight status.

What's done is done... . but going in at first signs is much better than waiting until the problem has taken hold for a while.

It is not uncommon for BPD's to use a condition/illness of a spouse in a manipulative way.   I would assume that it is preferred for the family and spouse to understand a bit of what the condition is about and learn practical things such has how to wake you up in the middle of the night (if emergency, etc.). 

My dad, was a WWII tail/turret ball gunner and after the war refused to fly in anything that didn't have multiple engines or flights that involved going over the ocean.

Here is a manual for GALs (guardian ad litems) that describes the DSS process in your state: www.nccourts.org/Citizens/Gal/Documents/Manual/chapter10.pdf

Here's a similar manual, though written in 2009: info.dhhs.state.nc.us/olm/manuals/dss/csm-60/man/pdf%20docs/CS1408.pdf

You can look at the DSS forms used by the social workers. They're online: info.dhhs.state.nc.us/olm/forms/forms.aspx?dc=dss

Scroll down to DSS 5228, 5229, 5230, 5231.

Be aware that even when the information is there in front of the evaluators, investigators, court and other professionals this truism may still apply:  The one behaving poorly may experience few if any consequences and the one behaving properly may get little if any credit.

As for sleep, my ex also used sleep deprivation against me.  Often towards the end she would demand to "fix this right now", even into the early morning hours.  It didn't matter to her that I had to get up early to go to work.  It caught me off guard once.  He would rant and rage, claiming she couldn't hear me when I always replied in a normal tone and volume.  One time - just once - I raised my voice and she got this look in her eyes like "Aha, I got him to react!" but it made no difference, she just kept on badgering.

formflier, I believe you are getting very good legal advice here... . I'd like to draw your attention to one place:

Your first priority is your kids; that is clear. you still have one big choice to make:

Do you want to live with your wife or separate from her?



I think I remember you writing some things about what she would have to do in order for you to go back, like accept that she needs therapy, or agree to stop corporal punishment.

If you are still uncertain whether you want to stay with your wife or split, I'd strongly recommend you try to frame your choice in terms of what specific, concrete behaviors would be worth saying "I'm done." over.

Making this sort of decision based on any promises or deals your wife offers seems foolish to me.

I'm pushing you because some actions recommended here will work for or against reconciling with your wife, and if you aren't clear on that, it will make the decision to take those actions harder for you.

Yeah... . this is something I have been giving a lot of thought to.

1.  Primary goal is to reconcile with my wife and have a healthy relationship with her and rest of family.  The hard facts that I have to face is that is not up to me.  It is up to a person with a (suspected) personality disorder.

2.  I think I should get a better vibe this week about how the DSS process will go.  I need to make sure I have plenty of objective evidence that they should take a look at my wife's mental health.  If they do... . then there is hope  that this process may do some good.  If they don't, and stick with what my kids want or feel safe with... . then I will have to pull some "levers" on the legal machine.

3.  I'm not going back to an unhealthy relationship that is not being effectively worked on

Even in my best case scenario... . I see a tough road ahead.  That would be with her going to... . most likely... . DBT  and other forms of therapy.  And... . I could imagine that it may be better if I was not in the house to keep the pressure and triggers down.  I'm fine with that... . if that is really helpful.

If she draws a hard line... . basically flips me the bird... . then I am ready to proceed down that road. 

Some of my buddies in real life ask if I am going to try and "prove" that she is a bad mom... . My response is that I'm not responsible for proving that.  I just shine the light... . and enforce the courts shining the light... . and they will see what is there.

Grey kitty... . and others... . please keep pushing.  I'm still getting new nuggest of information and challenging ideas that I haven't thought about before.

Yeah, don't get sucked into somebody else's way of framing the issue - is she a "bad mom" for example.

When you're asked a question like that - one that already has some assumptions inside it, like the assumption that this is about who is a good parent and who is a bad parent - don't take the bait.  Say it like you just did - "What I'm doing is getting all the information out in the light of day and letting things work out the best for the kids" or whatever.

And figure out who is helping you and supporting you - which doesn't always mean they understand what you're dealing with or they know what you should do - but you can decide who is helpful to listen to and who is trying to trap you or manipulate you into doing something you don't think is right.  Get your distance from anybody that makes this whole thing harder.  It's hard enough already.

 |iiii This is absolutely a great start:


I think you need to refine it more, as there is a lot of ambiguity hidden in there:

"Unhealthy relationship" covers a huge range. Can you come up with specific unhealthy behaviors (perhaps ones you've been experiencing already!) that identify exactly what you will not tolerate from her?

And "effectively worked on" is even worse. If she is going to therapy but is regularly beating your children (in a way that doesn't leave marks... . legal in your state) is that "effective"?

I'm afraid that if you grade her for "effort" you will confuse yourself.

In other words... . if you did move back with her for a week, and a couple dozen people were watching the whole thing like a reality TV show... . they wouldn't agree on whether it was an unhealthy r/s or not... . nor would the agree whether it was being effectively worked on!

It is a terribly hard choice on your part--I'm thankful that I don't have to make it myself! I'm also really trying NOT to push you either toward staying or leaving. Instead I'm trying to push you to find your own clarity.

Yeah, this is the importance of "boundaries" - it can feel like nit-picking or semantics but it's important stuff - clarifying in your own mind and communicating to others exactly what is OK for you.

Members here walked me through this when I was where you were.  It wasn't easy.

What I came up with was something like this... .

I will not be alone with Mrs. Matt, without a non-family adult third party present, until we know the cause of her behaviors that have been a problem - accusations, threats, and physical violence - and she has obtained the recommended treatment, and if far enough along that it's clear she won't do that stuff any more.

Not saying that's right for you, but for me, it clarified where I was at, and what I needed from my wife, to have a chance for the marriage to work.  I had to repeat this - not word for word but more or less - a number of times, so others - counselors, mediator, etc. - could all hear what I was saying and get clear in their minds what needed to happen for the marriage to work.  They all did their best to help my wife see that if she wanted the marriage to work - and she said that she did - it was clear what she needed to do - she needed to commit not to engage in those behaviors anymore, and she needed to actively seek help, to work on the underlying causes, so she could keep that commitment.

In one way, this didn't work:  she avoided the issues for several months, and then finally made it clear that she didn't have a problem - I did.  And to this day - though she has been diagnosed and ordered by the court to get psychotherapy - she hasn't done a thing to get better.

But in another way, this approach worked very well:  it clarified for me and for others what the path to a healthy marriage needed to be, and it resolved the issue by making my wife choose one path or the other.  We got out of limbo.

You already know this, but it's worth underscoring.

When we aren't ready to face something -- and it doesn't matter whether a person is BPD or not -- it can be very frightening. BPD sufferers feel a lot of fear even even in the absence of pressure to face their behaviors. Shining the light on a BPD sufferer's behavior, whether it's a spouse in the marriage, or family members, or through counselors, or through DSS or court-ordered process, can trigger a tremendous amount of fear.  

My own experience dealing with someone who is BPD is that shining the light on his behaviors only made him more fearful, and more disordered. Fear wasn't a place from which he could ask for or receive help. And by shining a light, I mean seemingly innocuous things like therapy for our son, or therapy for me, or cautiously worded questions about whether he could sleep without drinking that second bottle of wine. By the time we were neck deep in lawyers, mediators, parent coordinator, therapists, and a full peanut gallery of professionals sitting front row, there was no direction for his illness to go but full throttle.

In the face of indisputable evidence and a consistent losing streak in court, the only thing that ever made him comply with court orders was a bailiff standing two feet away ready to put handcuffs on him. The more cornered he became, the harder he disputed reality. I have experienced nothing more sad and heart-wrenching than watching the man who fathered my child split from reality in a courtroom. The delusions of persecution became so acute, and so convoluted, he had to have a psychotic break just to tolerate the intensity.

That's what makes this illness so heartbreaking. Wanting to help them or love them is perceived as wanting to annihilate them. The very thing we want -- to love them and help them -- is precisely what triggers their fear.

So by shining light on your wife's behavior, whether it's through DSS social workers or marriage counselors or lawyers and judges, you stand to bring other witnesses to the front row, but the other possibility is that she retreats deeper into her illness.

That's why so many of us shift focus to our kids. We can actually help them.

Yes... . and yet hiding key information, like behaviors, or avoiding it, or rationalizing it - all of which may be what is done not just by the person with BPD, but also the professionals who may not be prepared to actually deal with the reality of the situation - probably won't solve anything.

"Stop Walking On Eggshells" contains a lot of good ideas for people who deal every day with someone who has BPD - ways to communicate that are less likely to trigger her.  I've thought that maybe it should be titled, "How To Walk On Eggshells".  It's a great book, and it may have saved some marriages.  You have to decide if that is a safe thing for you to try, and if it might work for you.

In the legal process, one way to look at it is, you don't want to attack the other party, or try to "win" at her expense.  What you want to do is establish clear boundaries, and bring all the relevant information to the table, out in the open, so it can all be taken into account.

Good stuff... . keep pressing me for answers... . and if they are not clear... . keep going.  I'll come back to this thread later this evening.

Unfortunately... . I'm going to start a thread that is titled... . "my work knows"... . or "my bosses"

And... . the genius part is it appears my uBPDw has accuses or insinuated some sore of embezzlement of county funds on my part.  I actually think this is genius... . because it can be proven pretty quickly that county funds are safe and OK.  And I can show where she has actually hidden funds. 

Sigh... . so far my bosses seem supportive... . on to the next thread... . lets try to keep this thread going to focus on my choices... .

Thanks guys... . keep it up... . getting my thoughts and decisions more focused.

BPD sufferers use very crude coping mechanisms like projection. It feels awful to experience negative emotions, so better to bounce them out and watch others perform the emotions from a safe distance.

It can be a bit like reading tea leaves, but often the wacky accusations can be traced to something they have done or are planning on doing.

My wife accused me of cheating on her many times.  She often said, "I know there's something going on between you and so-and-so!".  I never cheated on her in any way.

When we separated, my son found her diary and read it.  She wrote at length about another guy she knew from the gym - how wonderful he was and how she dreamed of being with him.  I don't think she actually "cheated" on me, but she was definitely fantasizing about it, and projecting that on me.

 

In this case... . the crude coping mechanism is that my wife actually moved $30k from a joint account... . into an account at a bank where I have never had an account.  So... she either forged my name to creat a joint account... . or she has her own account over there.

This is after she initiated a conversation with my months earlier... . after a string of misdeeds I was accused of... . that there would be no financial transactions ... . big decisions... . on the thousands of dollar range scale of thing... . without both of us agreeing.  I have it recorded... . I even confirmed with her the agreement and said I supported it... . I think that freaked her out a bit... . because I don't normally agree with her ideas.

Liveandlearned,

If you don't mind... . can you tell more of your story about what happened in court... . and how that played out. 

Has your ex hubby come to terms with it... . or is he still in denial?

Do you think that you could have/should have tried to do something to bring this out earlier... . ?

Are you glad it finally came out?  Glad might be wrong word... but best I could think of... . did it have an ultimate good result.

I hope this doesn't happen in my case... but if it does... it does.

That's a good point... . on what the correct title of the book should be.  I've quickly read the book... . and I'm in the process of going trough it and getting more details.  Since the DSS thing has come up... . I've not spent any time on the validation and SET... . not JADEing... . or those kinds of books.

Sort of have bigger fish to fry. 

Plus... . at this point... I'm not going back unless she is taking positive steps forward (I need to define that better)... . so I don't need to know how to be a better hubby... . and won't study much on that... . until I know she is taking steps in right direction.

That may have sounded harsher than I meant it... . hope you get the general point.

Yeah, I just mentioned the book to make a point.  (The author is the founder of this site, by the way.)

One set of skills is needed to live with a person with BPD.  Another set of skills is needed when you step away from the relationship.  You kind of have one foot in each camp right now, and that's a very uncomfortable place to be.

Well... . after 5 frustrating years I'm ready to "make something happen".  This is in my nature... . it's probably reinforced by my Naval Aviator training... . and how most of those guys are.

If there is a simmering argument between guys... . that can't get solved... . the aviator solution is to pour some gas on it (figuratively speaking)... . and see what happens.

I sort of got force into that situation here... . but now we are here... . so instead of retreat or hide... . I say we shine the light... . and she what happens.  Whatever happens will be better than staying "stuck" for 5 more years... . or one more month.

 

Amen to that... . that I have one foot either way.

But I'm going to argue against it being uncomfortable.  At least now I have options.  Before it would have taken a lot more effort to file something or do something to exit the marriage.  An incident came along and made the first step easy for me (easy not exactly the right word... . but there was no real decision to be made).

I would say the most uncomfortable position would be to get to the point to re-enter living together.  I will be on guard... . and even with treatment... . by that time I would assume she realizes that she has done something odd... . and she will be worried as well.  Luckily... I have a long time to think about that... before being faced with that.

Yeah, this is the importance of "boundaries" - it can feel like nit-picking or semantics but it's important stuff - clarifying in your own mind and communicating to others exactly what is OK for you.

Members here walked me through this when I was where you were.  It wasn't easy.

What I came up with was something like this... .

I will not be alone with Mrs. Matt, without a non-family adult third party present, until we know the cause of her behaviors that have been a problem - accusations, threats, and physical violence - and she has obtained the recommended treatment, and if far enough along that it's clear she won't do that stuff any more.

Not saying that's right for you, but for me, it clarified where I was at, and what I needed from my wife, to have a chance for the marriage to work.  I had to repeat this - not word for word but more or less - a number of times, so others - counselors, mediator, etc. - could all hear what I was saying and get clear in their minds what needed to happen for the marriage to work.  They all did their best to help my wife see that if she wanted the marriage to work - and she said that she did - it was clear what she needed to do - she needed to commit not to engage in those behaviors anymore, and she needed to actively seek help, to work on the underlying causes, so she could keep that commitment.

In one way, this didn't work:  she avoided the issues for several months, and then finally made it clear that she didn't have a problem - I did.  And to this day - though she has been diagnosed and ordered by the court to get psychotherapy - she hasn't done a thing to get better.

But in another way, this approach worked very well:  it clarified for me and for others what the path to a healthy marriage needed to be, and it resolved the issue by making my wife choose one path or the other.  We got out of limbo.[/quote]

Matt,

Do you have sole custody?  Was there any court sanction for not following the court order? 

Can I ask what problem she accused you of having?

I think I would be fine with taking the same path.  Defining a few non-negotiables... . and seeing if my wife wants to move in my direction. 

Legally, I have 50/50.  I agreed to that.  My lawyer told me, "Over time it will change so you have 'de facto primary custody'.", and that's what has happened over the 6 years or so since we settled.  Now S15 is with me full-time, except once in a while when I travel, and D17 is with me most of the time - she makes her own schedule and I support her doing that.

Her original accusation - the night our marriage melted down - she called 911 and said "My husband threw me down the stairs."  The joke was, our stairs had a landing, so for it to happen as she said was somewhere between ridiculous and impossible.  And my kids saw us both coming down the stairs - me first and their mom afterward.  They told that to the police, who put it in their report.  (They also recorded that my wife told one story to one officer and a different story to the other officer a few minutes later.  So there was no doubt she was lying.)

During our marriage she had also accused me of having affairs - pretty much every woman I ever worked with, or met when I traveled, and even some of my female relatives.  (And one man I barely knew.)  She accused me dozens of times, sometimes in front of the kids, all 100% false, but I suspect she may have believed what she was saying, because of her own psych problems.

The "problem" she accused me of having - well, over the course of the divorce - about 18 months - her lawyer said I was "controlling" (which I have since learned is what many attorneys say who represent women in divorce cases - "He's controlling!" - means nothing).  My wife also said I was deeply depressed after my parents died, which was kind of true - and I never argued about it - but not relevant, since I was dealing with it well - I found a good counselor and followed his advice - and there was no evidence that either my wife or kids had been hurt by it.

She said I was hiding a lot of money, which was not true.  We went through three cycles of "discovery" - the same documents demanded three times and provided three times - just a way for her attorney to bill more hours.

Maybe there was something else - her lawyer was good at coming up with stuff so she could bill more hours - but nothing I can think of.

So did you ever try to push the fact that she skipped out on ther court ordered counseling?

I only asking because I could see this being an issue for me... . if she is not going to make an effort to be healthy... . then I will fight tooth and nail for sole custody.  I may not win... .

Just thinking... .

This has been an ongoing issue - something I've discussed a number of times with my friends and mentors here, as well as in real life.  And with my lawyer.

The conclusion I came to is that if I filed a motion, after the settlement, and the only issue was, "She's not complying with the court order - not getting treatment.", that would be a mistake.  She would argue that she couldn't afford it (not true but messy to argue about);  and that she was doing fine (not true but very difficult to prove);  and that the kids are doing fine (more or less true).  Those who know more than me all say it's unlikely the court would take action, and likely that I would look like a jerk for starting a new fight.

So I've handled it a different way.  I've made it clear to my ex, that if things work out OK - no more accusations, and we both do what is best for the kids - then I won't fight over the therapy issue or other issues I could bring up.  But if she makes more accusations, or if she won't do what's best for the kids, I'll take her to court, and seek full legal custody, and all these issues - therapy plus a number of other things - will be out in the open.

(She committed a number of crimes while we were married and during the divorce.  She made false accusations, filed false documents, false statements under oath, etc.  No consequences for any of it, but all fair game if we found ourselves back in court.)

This has worked.  The biggest conflict we had post-divorce was over moving a few hundred miles away.  I had to move for work, and I proposed to take the kids, and I offered to pay her moving costs if she chose to move.  It's closer to her family, and she likes it here more than where we lived when we were married, and at the time she wasn't working.  She fought me over it, for months, til I told her, "Either settle today or I file for full custody, and disclose that you aren't complying with the court order, and all the other stuff - lying under oath etc."  She accepted my offer, after rejecting it for months.

I don't think you can "force" someone to get help, and I don't think the court will enforce such an order.  Or, your wife could find a therapist she likes, and spend an hour each week lying to her, and nothing would be accomplished.  It has to be her choice - not something you pressure her into doing or get the court to tell her to do - that won't work.  And it's very unlikely she will ever make that choice.

But all of that is moot without a diagnosis.  And if there are no kids involved - there aren't are there? - I don't think the court will order psych evals.

Bottom line, you have to decide if you want to be with her as she is or not.  Quit thinking about fixing her - that's not in your control.

formflier, I get this. I have 15 different theorectical scenarios (at least) going through my head all of the time. It's the way I am. It's a boon in my work, but can be a bane in other things. While it's good to think ahead, focusing that energy on your immediate concerns may help you in what you need to do now.

This is being focused and mindful of the meeting with DSS, and getting access back to your children. From the stories we read here, sole custody can be a long and arduous process. The stories certainly helped ground me, because that was my first instinct. That possibly far off future is one of many possibilities. The here and now is being mindful of your meeting, and getting access to your children.

Don't be too quick to jump the process (if you're a pilot, maybe you know something about OODA Loops).

OODA loop... . yeah... thought about that once or twice... . or a gazillian times!   :)

The one thing I have to realize is that I am dealing with people that seem to like to go with the first story that they have heard.

Even their "trained investigators".


So... . if I have critical evidence... . it doesn't need to be introduced later.

Unfortunately there are lots of kids involved.  18 down to 1.  8 total.  Yep... . I said that correctly 8 total.  So... . another way of thinking is that there are 8 people that I love that I don't want to be the 4th generation affected by BPD or BPD like behavior. 

uBPDw mom's brothers and sisters have broken into two camps over care of the grandma.  They (literally) mailed keepsakes back to each other and have not spoken in a year or two.  All of the cousins of uBPDw still talk and think their parents are being ridiculous... . however... . they can't... . or wont... . see it in themselves.

Courts generally deal with people as they are.  Yes, they'll order a short series of Anger Management classes, maybe, but that's as far as it goes.  So the odds are very high that they will not try to change her or support your efforts to change her.

What they are geared for is to unwind the marriage... .

• short term financial support (spousal support)



• long term financial support (alimony, depending on your state's laws)



• marital assets



• marital debts



• custody and decision making



• parenting time

The first 4 items are fairly straightforward, there will be some give and take but courts can handle that relatively well.  But the last 2 items - custody and parenting time - those will be the the most important and the most difficult ones to accomplish in your favor.

While yes, if you can rescue the marriage then custody and parenting time will resolve themselves, the fact is that thus far that doesn't look like it's going to happen.  Maybe it will happen later, but right now no one knows what the end result will be.  Though you can keep your eyes open for such opportunities, don't you think it would be wise to give higher priority to your parenting and securing as much possible in the meantime.  Perhaps even phrasing it as wanting to be as involved with parenting as possible and along those lines you still think a repaired marriage has hopes.  By doing that you at least include the children in the focus of your efforts, especially since at some point it may turn into being only about the children.  In other words, don't put all your eggs in one (rescue-the-marriage) basket.

I'm sorry, I got confused about the kids... .

So with young kids involved, if the marriage can't be saved, the big issue will be custody.  It will be very important to understand how the process works, and all your options.

Two decisions I made - both of them suggested by my friends here - helped a lot.

The first was to file a motion asking for a Custody Evaluator to be appointed.  That took the custody issue to a much higher level.  The CE was able to administer objective psych evals - the MMPI-2 - and talk to both parents, the kids, my stepkids (adults), and others who knew us, including my counselor.  He was able to look at the whole picture and take things into account that the court would never have looked at, and make recommendations - not just who should get primary custody, but more specific things to make the situation work out.

Looking back, his report had a lot of good stuff in it, including some stuff about the future;  he said, "Here's how I think would be best for now, and in the future here are some changes that will probably work better as the kids get older.", and his ideas have turned out to be right.

The most important thing about the CE was that he asked us to take the MMPI-2, which got my wife's disorders out in the open - not as accusations or opinions from me, but as a medical diagnosis from an objective, qualified professional.

The other process that helped a lot was depositions.  I filed a motion to have my wife deposed - questioned under oath by my attorney - and her attorney then did the same.  Each of us was under oath for four hours.  We could be asked anything relevant to the case.  Our answers were recorded and transcribed.

If we made false statements, the other side could find evidence of that and show it at trial - a big risk - so my lawyer told me to be very careful not to say anything which wasn't true.  But my wife made more than 40 false statements and accusations under oath, so if we had gone to trial (that is, if there was no settlement) she would have been put under oath and confronted with proof that she had lied under oath when she was deposed.  She would have lost all credibility with the court, and could have been criminally charged.

This put her in a very weak position.  I wanted to settle, but she had to settle;  her lawyer was ethically obligated to avoid criminal risk for her client.  They went from obstinate to very flexible, and we got a settlement that has worked pretty well.

No worries about confusion.  We'll just keep passing info and asking questions.

There is enough "stuff" I have that if my wife is deposed and tells the truth... . that's good for me.  If my wife is deposed and lies about it because she doesn't want to admit to this... . then... . that should work in my favor as well.

I see this being several steps down the road... . and that is a road I hope I don't get on.

But if it happens I am ready to do this.

So... . for all that are out there trying to help me shape my decision making... . please keep pressing... . don't let up.

I think of things as good, better and best.

Best:  Wife "get's it"  gets help and family is healed.   Lower chance of this happening.

Better:  We separate and get a decent agreement that forces us into evaluation and monitoring.  I believe this will shine the light on issues and something will happen.  She will get better... . or get much worse.  I really doubt she stays status quo.

Good:  DSS remains involved for a while and the situation slowly changes and this become more apparent to them. 

I could flip better and good... . but it depends on the timeline.

Thoughts?

It seems like there are two parts here to the court process.

One is DSS.

The other is divorce.

You're just dealing with DSS right now, and they have some kind of safety response and investigation that might involve monitoring how the two of you as parents behave. It's hard to imagine that DSS is stricter about counseling than court is, but I guess it's possible. Like Matt, FD, and others have mentioned, the counseling thing is a bit of hand waving when it comes to court. A judge can order it, but there aren't really serious consequences to not going. You can file what's called a motion for contempt, but they're kind of like parking tickets in family court. After a bunch have been filed, it shows a pattern but individually, they don't really compel much unless the kids are being negatively impacted.

Like Matt's wife, my ex was ordered to undergo counseling, both for alcohol and anger. Instead, he seems to have decided screw you all. Visitation was reinstated so he could see our son, but he hasn't reached out to make arrangements. He would rather walk away than get counseling, that's how frightening the sunlight can be.

A couple of questions for your attorney about the DSS process -- you might want to find out at what point does DSS report a case to the district attorney, or whatever court they report to. If your kids are found to be "not safe" or "unconditionally safe," find out what the difference is in terms of the reporting process.

Another question for your lawyer: will the court care (if you end up separating) if your wife does not comply with the DSS safety response and counseling terms.

Your case is a little different because of your public position, so maybe you'll have a different kind of process. But in general, court moves at a glacial pace. If your wife rejects counseling during the DSS phase, that might not count for much. But if court orders it, and she refuses, then there's a documented pattern.

There is no real "justice" with the court system. It's a marathon, not a sprint. And just when you reach mile marker 26.2, you realize you're actually in an ultramarathon.

Q: Have you had any contact with your wife since the DSS encounter when you were ordered to leave? If so, has she behaved considerably better than she was the prior week?

If the answer to that is not a resounding YES, then your "Best" scenario where you your wife gets it won't help you. Instead it will distract you from taking actions that can improve the situation. (If she does suddenly shift in that direction, you can stand down all sorts of plans or steps you might be taking already.)

All three scenarios sound long on wishful thinking, and short on actions that you have the power to take.

--If you separate, a "decent agreement" will require your lawyer fighting tooth and nail for you to get it--She is not being reasonable... . and the stress of attacking/invalidating her with this crap will only make her worse!

--You have very little influence over DSS; so far they haven't helped the situation, and they may not do much to help the situation. They also are likely to be (initially) manipulated by your wife.

He is in profound denial.


By trying to do something to bring this out, do you mean trying to shine light on his disordered behavior? I didn't know about BPD during our marriage. I did know that something was seriously wrong, more than straightforward alcoholism. Like you, things came to a head rather abruptly and I left with S12. There was no going back for me. The gasoline was poured and the flame was lit.


It did not have a good result for him. Throwing light on his behavior had a deeply painful but ultimately good result for me and my son.


There are a lot of similarities in our collective cases, and some important differences. BPD in men seems to influence custody issues in a different way. Mine wanted legal control of S12, and fought less hard to have hands-on-hand parenting (ie. visitation, physical custody). I think the degrees of narcissism also influences our cases. Of the hermit/queen/waif/witch behaviors, if your wife has strong queen traits, she might experience some of the same narcissistic issues my ex experienced.

Many (most?) people with PDs suffer from impulsivity, which hurts them in court. Entitlement is usually present, but arguably less damaging. Projection and denial also create problems, and that leads to obstructions and non-compliance (ie. the order doesn't say that, the judge didn't say that, etc.) that the court will tolerate up to a point. The worse expression of this are false accusations, which keeps everyone very busy being whipped up in a sideshow with disastrous results.

This is how a lot of us learn how family law works. We spend a lot of time in court trying dealing with non-compliance and continuances and false allegations.

My ex was a former trial lawyer, which led him to believe he could represent himself better than anyone else. That backfired badly for him because his disordered thinking was on full display with no one filtering it for him. He has all but given both middle fingers to the judge, not only by not complying with judge's orders, but by telling the judge that he is wrong. It's not a strategy that has worked well for him.

DSS is different from place to place.  In many places, they have a reputation for being militantly anti-dad and knee-jerk pro-mom.  Sometimes they may have an extreme political agenda;  they may not be open to reason or evidence.

You'll need to start by trying to work with them;  assume they are there to help the kids, and that's what you want too, and information is on your side, so you share information like the audio recording (after consulting about that with your attorney) and see how they respond.

I would suggest talking to your attorney as soon as possible - today if you can - and ask to talk to DSS right after that.  If they are reluctant to talk to you, or to look at your evidence, that will tell you a lot.

If you know people who have seen you with the kids, that might help.  Maybe you can ask DSS to talk with their teachers, neighbors, etc. - people with no stake in the matter except best wishes for the kids - and if they all say the kids respond to you normally that may help.

If at some point you see that DSS is biased, you'll need to ready to deal with them differently, and probably to go on the offense - shift from passively following their process to putting them on the defensive by taking them to court in some way.  Could be messy but if it's needed it's needed.

Seems like you have several things you need to deal with right now:  :)SS, bosses, separation/divorce, your wife, and the kids.  Plus you need to look after yourself - exercise, regular sleep, healthy diet, minimal drinking, counseling.  You might have to pick the few most important - #1 should be looking after yourself! - and see if you can set some of them aside for a period of time, without putting yourself at a disadvantage.  Trying to do too much at once can be a big mistake.

LnL is using terms - queen, waif, etc. - that are described in detail in "Understanding The Borderline Mother" by Christine Lawson.

It's kind of expensive, very thorough, very helpful, very depressing.

I think you should try to read it when you can.  It will shed a lot of light on your wife's behavior and how it's likely to impact the kids long-term.

Yep... . it's on my list to purchase... .