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What would you have done differently?  What has helped?  What has hurt your case?

Our family is at the beginning of the long and winding BPD road.  My 19 year old son has a 3 month old daughter w/his uBPD ex-girlfriend.  They both live at home and he is beginning to pursue custody.  Here is the situation as it stands:

My son has the baby 3 half days and one overnight per week.  This is largely due to the fact that uBPD ex's father became involved in negotiating a schedule w/my husband b/c the ex was withholding visitation after an incident in which she felt rejected.  This happened almost immediately after my GD was born.  An overnight was phased in a few weeks ago, again with the help of her father.  They live 30 minutes from us and we do ALL of the transporting.   

Since then, my son has tried to increase his time w/his D.  He'd like a 50/50 custody arrangement.  She has agreed to very little w/out her father's involvement and continually tells him she is in control since his D lives w/her.  She placed her in daycare this week against his wishes, has threatened my son numerous times w/court, her father has threatened calling police if he attempts to pick up the baby w/out her consent (he has no basis for this concern) etc.  She has stalked him online, defamed his character, splits him black and white on a regular basis, and has basically made life very difficult in an already stressful situation.

We had a consultation with an attorney a couple of weeks ago and she seemed very thorough in her questioning and collection of information.  She counted the hours my son has with his daughter.  She said he has very little time and deserves to have more given his involvement.  In our state, there is the option of signing an acknowledgement of paternity in the hospital which gives him legal rights to his D so that has already been established.  Legally, he has equal rights but of course, in practice he would never forcefully take his daughter.  The attorney suggested we file for joint physical and legal custody.

His ex seems to be a great mom to the baby, but emotionally, she is extremely unstable.  I am concerned for the future as my GD gets older.  I vacillate between feeling like I'm blowing things out of proportion to knowing clearly that we need to set a foundation of support and security for our GD from the beginning.  His ex is going to absolutely flip when my son petitions for custody and the attorney warned us of the fallout.  The ex is under the impression that a judge will award him less time than he is getting now, but the attorney assured us that this is very unlikely to happen.

I've been reading this board for a few months now and it has been priceless in guiding my son w/his situation.  We've been documenting since the pregnancy.  So, given the vast amount of experience of members, looking back, if you were at the beginning of your pursuit for custody, what do you wish you knew? 

Any other advice about our particular circumstances is greatly appreciated.

In general, a court will make an order more favorable than an entitled, emotion-driven, possessive and obstructive parent will voluntarily allow.  The point is that going to court may not fix all issues or inequalities but generally an order is better than what you can get otherwise.  Since it will set a basic foundation for parenting and be imperfect, try to get the best you can out of the very first order, subsequent changes will be an uphill struggle.

Be fully aware that courts favor settlements.  They'll be quick to issue a 'standard' temporary order, but proceed glacially slow to figure things out, we've concluded they like it slow so the parents will want to get it over with and settle sooner.  The problem is that when dealing with a sabotaging and obstructive parent a reasonable settlement is unlikely to ever happen.  Maybe one can be made when the obstructive parent feels less entitled such as just before a major hearing or trial and it is known a bad report will be presented.  Maybe.  Be be aware that a settlement will only include the terms and conditions, nothing about the misbehaviors.

Be aware that when testimony is given and a subsequent decision is made, then the matter is considered handled/resolved and won't be mentioned again.  Of course, it might be used later to demonstrate a pattern of behaviors but nothing more.

In my case my ex looked very poor every step of the way, the court chose to still get her preferential treatment and very little of her poor behaviors actually got "on the record".  We settled the divorce (Shared Parenting, equal time and me as Residential Parent).  Three years later she was dinged for one small item of "not credible" when I sought Change of Circumstances when seeking custody.  We settled for GAL's recommendation that I get custody but parenting time stayed equal.  (Gal said getting child support might make her more stable.)  A couple more years later and I was back in court asking for majority time.  This time we couldn't settle, ex probably figured that the child support she had with non-custodial equal time would be lost if she lost equal time.  Two full days of testimony.  After over 8 years in and out of court, for the first time the order included extensive commentary on mother's disparagement of father.  She had been doing it all along but with the settlements most of it never got onto the record.  I got majority time during the school year but mother still has equal time during the summer.  Soap Box.  What took the court a half hour to gift away in 2005 and took me 8 years to make equitable, I feel sure would not have taken that long if the genders had been reversed.  End Soap Box.

My son had similar situation living with gf and an oops pregnancy.  She would tell him that going to court was a BAD idea; she as the mother had complete control of the baby, etc.  She thought not being married to the father gave her more rights.

Your son has to be extremely careful about who he talks to about his custody pursuit.  My son found out that friends were relating some of the things he told them to his exgf.  Do not discuss the pending case with his ex--she is likely going to try in various ways to get him to drop the case.  Her father might also may try talking to you and your husband about it.  Document the incidents if they happen.  A simple, but politely stated: "Our attorney told us we are not to discuss the case" or something like that is all you have to say. 

Your son needs to be very careful with his actions.  He will be under scrutiny as well.   If he has anything in his past that might be used against him he needs to tell his attorney about it. 

If you use a private process server you can know exactly when she has been served.  For instance, would it be better for her to be served when she has the baby or your son has the baby?

Thanks so much for the feedback.  It sounds like it's the right move to pursue custody through the courts. But I'm glad we will know what to expect to a degree and won't be disillusioned about everything being resolved right away.  My son suggested mediation to ex and she said no.  She seems incapable of negotiating.  It's either her way or no way.  She was even resistant to him having the baby while she was at work and he had the day off. I can't imagine how they would come to a settlement on their own.

While my son has consistently said he would like 50/50 custody, he's also a bit overwhelmed by the responsibility of it.  He'd like to pursue college and work at the same time.  We told him we would help him.  While I don't want to push him, I also don't want him to have any regrets.  I've read repeatedly, and ForeverDad, you reiterated in your post, that the first appearance is very important and the foundation will be laid.  Any thoughts on how to advise him? 

We've been very careful about discussing custody and most of his friends have been offended by his ex in one way or another but I will keep that in mind.  Her father will most likely try to engage us so that's a great reply.  I think he's been afraid he'd take her to court.  He's consistently told us that my son has no rights, that she's being generous, that he'd fare worse in court, that lawyers really don't make a difference but make a lot of money etc.  This, he says, is all based on his personal experience.

How do we ensure that we know when she gets served?  I didn't realize we had any control over that.  Great point.

Any thoughts about the attorney's advice?  Does it sound like she's leading him in the right direction?

Can I take a moment on the soapbox?  As many others are, I'm appalled at the treatment of fathers in court given the fact that people often complain about deadbeat dads, men not taking responsibility etc.  Complete frustration! 

Mediation is a standard tool used by family court, often it's the next step after a temporary order is made.  Knowing that you can't negotiate with someone who won't reason or be reasonable, your son can approach mediation, when court orders it, as something to try but also pragmatically see it as unlikely to succeed.  (Decent settlements usually don't happen this early in a case, the disordered parent is simply far too entitled.)  For that reason, once it becomes apparent that the other parent is refusing to budge, it's okay to say "I tried but it failed, time to return to court and proceed to the next step", usually an assessment (Psych Eval if not already done) or Custody Evaluation.

You can use family court to have her served or if you want to select a specific time of service you can hire a private process server who is bonded and registered as a professional.  Service by professionals means that it is harder for her or her possible lawyer to contest the service.  Your lawyer probably can recommend some process servers.

I walked into divorce with 'standard-for-fathers' alternate weekends and an evening in between.  I walked out of my divorce with equal time, Shared Parenting and a light edge as Residential Parent.  She was just as entitled.  A few years later I walked out with custody but still equal time.  She was just as entitled.  A few years later I walked out with majority time during the school year and a scathing court order.  Finally our parenting has been a little easier.

No one can say precisely how she will act, react and overreact.  Everyone is different.  Being young, she may not be as aggressive as some others described here have been.  It's just hard to guess.  It sounds like her father has been of at least a little help for your son's minimal parenting but hasn't been willing to do any more than that.  While not burning bridges with her dad, do try to make progress.  Maybe phrasing it this way might help.  "Lots of times when parents can't agree to parenting details, they seek family court to help work it out... . "  Maybe in time her father will see your son as a decent and capable father.  That's certainly better than "threatening court".

It is almost never a good idea to negotiate directly with a disordered ex. If y'all could work cooperatively, chances are you wouldn't be in this spot. The professionals, whether therapists, mediators, lawyers, are less personally involved and can often tell one party they are being unreasonable. Doesn't mean the process is easier; it's just easier than going head-to-head. There's a reason that so many stories here involve unsatisfying negotiations with the ex. Bypass the ex in every way possible, and focus instead on custody evaluators, judges, therapists, parenting coordinators, or whatever applies where you are.

A benefit of using the courts is that orders can be enforced. If y'all negotiate an agreement with the other parent privately, then you'll be forever hoping they follow it. If you do one thing to irritate them--and that's not likely to happen when dealing with BPD, is it?--they're ignore or rewrite the plan. What enforcement options do you have then? Might as well put a collar and leash on yourself.

The best thing I did is ignore ex's feelings on the matter and go after what I want in the right way. Have a T, get an L, behave myself, file the right papers, observe all deadlines, make proposals the judge would find reasonable, use professional custody evaluator, study up here, etc. At this point, you're playing to the judge, and not the ex. Everything you say, write, and do will potentially come up in court. Let ex handle him/herself. Chances are they will misbehave or misstep, and that will accrue in your favor and cast you as the reasonable one.

Every step of the way I determined what I thought was best for D and I built the plans around that. Did not care a snit what was good/bad for ex. It was all focused on D, and that's always a defensible position with a judge, a T, a custody evaluator, your conscience, and even your own L. Mantra was, "for the good of the child."

Being 95% good isn't enough. Gotta be 100% good, or it'll be used against you. There's usually no comparative negligence. Like in a car accident, if you're just 1% at fault, your insurance still has to pay your costs (that worked in my favor once). If ex hits child ten times and you do once, you're both at fault. If ex screams daily and you do once a year, you're both suspect. If you let down your guard and send a nasty email or leave a profanity-laced voice mail, it'll haunt you and hurt your chances of good outcome. Be beyond reproach.

Avoid communicating with ex whenever possible, and then only in email, where it's documented. Phone calls, in-person talks, etc can all be used against you.

Specifically with regard to your son, he's acting as though his rights are subordinate to her whims by asking and waiting for her answer. How's that working for you? Or for most people here? Are you expecting reasonable responses now, after years of unreasonable behaviors? I wouldn't give such a person a chance to say no. Take your reasonable plan to an L and a judge, etc and redefine the distribution of power... . ex is no longer in charge!

Happy to say I never saw gender-bias in court. Maybe my state is progressive (AZ? ha ha), maybe the judge followed the law, maybe ex was so blatantly disordered that the outcome was inevitable, maybe I enacted the above plan ok and forced an appropriate outcome... .

As for getting served, I used a process server who was phoning/texting me as things happened. A very coordinated effort. Nerve-wracking, but carefully planned.

Not fair or appropriate but often the way things are... . courts are reluctant to declare one a great parent and the winner versus the other a terrible parent and the loser... . court may even play middle of the road and tell them both they're great parents and "they just need to get along"... .  and court hopes that eventually they will get along, that's why our cases often take so long, the court and other professionals take a long time before giving up on settlement expectations... .

The person behaving poorly seldom gets consequences and the person behaving properly seldom gets credit.

Ask for as much as you can as soon as possible. The BPD mom/ and her dad are establishing status quo. The longer it goes on, the harder it will be to change.

Mediation -- at least with the expectation that you'll come away with a reasonable agreement -- is often a waste. In my state, you can waive it. Ask your lawyer if that's possible.

Like others have said, don't believe the temporary order is temporary. What I learned is that every time you sign a legal document, a door closes. If your son changes his mind in the future, he has to overcome the first decisions he made, and that's hard.

When you go to a hearing, the judge makes a ruling, then a lawyer (ask for it to be yours) writes up the ruling. Check that language very carefully. Don't just accept what is written. Lawyers also make mistakes -- mine made lots! And she's a good lawyer.

Whenever possible, insist on having the consequences of non-compliance included in the order. Make sure everything in it has a consequence. So if BPD mom denies visitation, maybe have the order say exactly what will happen: that time gets added to your son's time consecutively. It can't hurt to even have an example: If visitation is denied by either party, that time will be added to his time. If visitation ends at 5pm on Friday, he will begin the make-up time at 5pm until 5pm the following day. Visitation with the mom then resumes at the regular time. Or whatever. Every loophole needs a consequence. That will make it easy for you to get the judge to rule your way if (usually when) the BPD parent doesn't comply with the order.

If you put together a parenting plan, spare no details. Like if there is language in there about one parent has one week vacation when school ends, specify exactly when that will happen (immediately at bell, or at 6pm, or 8am the next morning). You can get some very detailed parenting plans that look over the top, but when BPD is involved, there is no such thing as too detailed. The more boundaries in place, the easier it is to write an email that says: "Per the parenting plan."

Your replies have all been very helpful, first to confirm that we're on the right track and second, to bring attention to things we hadn't considered before.

I'm suspecting that the ex's father may have BPD tendencies himself.  He has lashed out a few times and I'm not sure if it's b/c his daughter is always venting to him and it's stressful or b/c he has his own issues.  We've kind of adopted the same policy with him as with his D--limited communication.  It's too bad b/c he was an advocate for our son in the beginning and we all got along very well.  Maybe we should keep trying.

My son has been trying to establish as much time as possible concerning visitation before we go to court.  But it's exactly right that we're going nowhere fast at this point and I don't see it changing.  Paperwork is being submitted tomorrow to retain the attorney. 

Livednlearned, that's an excellent suggestion regarding consequences and I can see how being very detailed would be beneficial.  No wiggle room.  She seems to have difficulty with any change regardless of how small it may be (unless she's initiating it).  Maybe that's part of the disorder?  Maybe a need for control?

I need to keep my focus on the baby.  My son and husband are doing a much better job of that than I am!  It's hard not to get caught up in the drama.  There's still a part of me that wants to help her and have a good relationship with her.  She has a very bad history with her mother who is not in her life.  I'm not completely disengaged, I suppose. But we need to do what is ultimately best for my son and his daughter. 

Thank you for the encouragement!  I've shared all of your advice with my son.  Some of the things you've all mentioned, such as being above reproach, have come out of my mouth before and it's nice to have some reinforcement.  :)

That was my gut instinct just reading your initial post, but I deleted it because people are complex   and that doesn't automatically mean they're mentally ill. But this:


... . is very manipulative. Of course your son has rights, and obviously the BPD mom is not being generous, and a quick consultation with a lawyer would prove he doesn't know what he's talking about. Or he does know, but doesn't want you to know.

Lawyers make a huge difference. The reason they make a lot of money is because high-conflict people can't come to reasonable agreements, and when they finally do, they don't comply with court orders. BPD mom's father is shifting the problem to lawyers -- an easy target -- when it's his daughter who's obstructing things and being unreasonable.

My hunch is that once you file for custody and start saying no (boundaries), he'll become a lot less helpful. In what ways was he an advocate for your son in the beginning? If he was savvy, he would've given your son just enough time to pacify him, because no time would've driven your son straight to a lawyer. Watch the dad for signs of narcissism -- if he responds well to praise, you might want to use that in your strategy to deal with him. It might also work to create a good cop/bad cop dynamic (maybe your H is the good cop, you are the bad) so that you can triangulate with him. Keep your enemies close... . etc. 

Have you read Splitting by Bill Eddy? It's written for divorcing couples, but anyone involved in a high-conflict custody battle will get something out of it. Eddy was a therapist before he became an attorney, and does a good job explaining how an adversarial legal system mixes with BPD and what to expect.

About her father, with few details it's hard to say what his issues might be.  Statistically, women are the ones more often diagnosed with Borderline PD while men are more often diagnosed with Narcissistic PD.  His initial willingness to support your son's contact may not be an indicator whether he does or doesn't have a disorder but he still might have traits.  Sometimes people can have multiple (comorbid) disorders or a less severe mix of traits.

For example, could he simply be following the historical "blood is thicker than water" tendency and defaulting to favoring his daughter?  Is his daughter feeding him allegations that your son is a bad person, even an abuser?  (Fortunately, abuse allegations have not -yet- been made but be prepared in case any are made, they are almost universal tactics used in high conflict cases.)  Could he be choosing to enable his daughter rather than enable your son?  Could his daughter be pressuring and manipulating him?  If she has traits of BPD and her father has traits of NPD, could be a family dynamic there where one feeds off the other's particular needs and neediness?

In the end, it is fruitless to conjecture - except when formulating strategies - we can't change others, we can only change and choose our own actions.  Your son has tried to negotiate and reason, since that failed the next step is judicial intervention.  While he may get the short end of the stick as a father and unmarried, it will be more than what his exGF will allow and it will no longer be subject to her inconsistent whims, triggers and moods of the moment.

I really don't know her father well enough to have a clear picture and you're right, the only purpose in speculating is to adjust our interactions with him.     

When the baby was first born, we were a united front trying to help two teens find their way as co-parents.  My son was spending time at their house, exGF was spending time at our house and they formulated a visitation plan on their own.  That all changed a few weeks later when my son attended a social event with a female friend.  This caused a major trigger in her.  I think she was still hoping they would get back together even though he made it very clear that was not going to happen (he had ended the relationship before they knew she was pregnant).  He went to pick his daughter up for the day they agreed on and exGF pushed him, yelled at him (I was in the house and could hear her but did not witness the push) and wasn't going to let him take the baby.  At this point, the two fathers stepped in and her father enforced the visitation allowance.  My son disengaged from her and knew it would be impossible to spend time together with the baby after that episode.

It does seem that her father only gets involved when his D is upset by something and she definitely does not give him the full picture, exaggerates, lies etc.  But what has me concerned, is the way in which he handles it. 

And I'm not sure if he really believes what he tells us about the court system (he negotiated w/out a lawyer for custody terms regarding his son and he has the standard every other weekend, one day during the week) or if he thinks we're stupid enough to take his word for it.  Regardless, his D believes everything he tells her and she's under the impression that she has full custody.  It will be a surprise to her when she realizes that is not the case.  I don't expect either of them to take the petition very well, but we have no choice. 

My son will definitely be pursuing the 50/50 split.  Here we go!  No longer being "subject to her whims, triggers and moods of the moment" is precisely the outcome he hopes for--it has been the most trying part of his situation by far.  Thanks to all of you for your support and advice.  It has helped so very much.

It might be very wise for the filing to include, "... . and if the parents of the child are unable to agree on major decisions then father asks for decision-making (AKA tie-breaker) status, custody or an assignment of a Guardian ad Litem (GAL) or an experienced professional to act as a Parenting Coordinator."  Why?  Better to let the court know up front and from the beginning that your son is willing to step forward and assume more parenting in the best interests of their child.  Sadly, most courts seem to default to assumptions that fathers are good for alternate weekends and deep pockets for child support.

Is the exGF a minor or an adult?

What status do grandparents have in your state?  If either of the young parents are minors, then you might have more influence legally than if they're both adults.  While in a few states grandparents may have no rights, in most states grandparent may have right but they're usually trumped by the parents' rights.

Be aware of Right of First Refusal (ROFR) - it may help or it may hurt depending on the circumstances.  It's a framework determining who takes care of the child if the parent is not present.  In my case I had equal time and made sure daycare was listed as equivalent to school, I wanted to make sure my ex couldn't swoop in and take our son after school or out of my daycare simply because I was working.  It was set at triggering after 5 hours away from our son.  Not too short, not too long.  Later as he got older and wanted to spend days with neighbor friends or family when I was working and he was out of school, it became a pain and I started started wishing for 10 hours or structure for excluding play days.

ROFR may help you since she may not parent the child much and want to leave it to her parents or daycare rather than with your son.  ROFR may hurt you since your son may not parent the child much if he's in school or working and want to leave the child with you or daycare.

One thing I do not think that has been discussed is do you live in a one party recording state?  In other words, could you legally tape a phone conversation without the exgf or father's knowledge? 

This may or may not come into play, but if either or both call in response to the petition being served, it might, if legal where you live, be to your advantage to record the call(s), especially if threats are made. 

Legal or not, I had to record myself and my interactions because of all the false allegations.  For me it was a special form of insurance, most of it was never used, but it was a lifesaver the few times I needed them as documentation before CPS, GAL and even in family court.  (Professionals use the passive word 'unsubstantiated' which weakens lies to just hearsay as though it was only minor matters.)  Fortunately I'm in a one-party state so the issue never came up.

I did find that court was reluctant to listen to them so for many years only the professionals heard them.

Yes, not strictly legal in two-party states but I've been here since 2006 and only a very few times have members reported serious problems and in those cases the consequences were that the member was instructed to stop recording.  These days, with so many devices able to record - and some public releases of recordings in recent years - it's almost impractical for the courts to stop it.  If we do it judiciously in the background and without shoving it in the other's face then likely we can protect ourselves and document incidents for defense of ourselves and the children.

We live in a one-party consent state.  :)uring her pregnancy, when I started researching BPD and particularly this website, I realized my son needed to have limited contact with his ex.  She was volatile, verbally abusive and relentless in her harassment of him.  Since then, almost all of their interactions have been through texting or email and we adopted the documentation mentality early on.  He saves everything.  

Her father likes to text too.  I save everything.  If he calls, I let it go to voicemail because I've made the mistake of answering and being caught off guard.

The only face-to-face contact they have is during drop-offs and pick-ups and that only lasts a minute or two.  I suggested he keep a recorder going but he doesn't think that's necessary at this point.  My concern is false accusations.  The L that he consulted with and who we retained today (yay!) suggested he bring a third party in with him, preferably someone over 18.  He hasn't felt the need for that either.  That may change after the petition is served so I will definitely keep the option of recording in mind and mention it to him.  

Twitter is an interesting thing.  Some of the most derogatory things she's said were through social media.  She attacked him on a regular basis for all of his friends and family to see.  He has since protected his accounts and that has gone a long way in curbing her obsession with his activities/friendships etc.  But given the nature of the BPD person who needs connection and attention, her Twitter account is fascinating.  It's almost like having the ability to peer into her brain.  She is most certainly not in the mindset of thinking there will be a custody battle because she consistently post things that are incriminating  ("I'm so drunk!" and has even made threats against my son.  I've learned the fine art of screen shots.    

Livednlearned, I have read "Splitting" and I need to reread it now that we're at the point of entering the family court system.  Thanks for the reminder. I had forgotten about that.

The relief on my son's face today after leaving the L's office was unmistakeable. I think he finally feels that he can have some control of the situation.  THANKS TO ALL OF YOU.  I felt so much better taking this step because of your encouragement.  

Better safe than sorry.  Cheaper to prevent than pay the price later.  When one time I told my lawyer my ex was making increasingly strong allegations of child abuse, he asked me, "Can you pay a $10,000 retainer for a criminal lawyer?"  When I said no, he told me, "then (1) avoid getting arrested and (2) have proof you didn't do it if you are."  Eventually I had 3 voice recorders because I couldn't risk one being left at home or the batteries dead.  Recordings were my insurance, my lifeline and helped me to sleep just a little bit easier at night.

So your son realizes how bad it can get, my story, I had been married for a dozen years before we had a child, eight of those years we were religious volunteers and deeply involved in teaching the Bible, we separated when our son was three years old (her paranoid suspicions of everybody drove everyone away and finally focused on me) and in order for me to look worse than her she started making increasing scary allegations of child abuse.  Think of the worst thing a father could do to a male child.  Yes, she alleged that.  Think of the the most perverted thing a father could do to a male child.  Yes, she alleged that.  It was scary those first few years.  Maybe your son's exGF won't do that - for sure don't give her any ideas to start making allegations! - but he simply can't risk being exposed without protection.  Maybe he should think of a recorder as his safety net, his divorce condom for protection?

Side note:  He should never ever share information with her about his legal strategies, options, tactics or protections.  That would be self-sabotaging and exposing himself to potential obstruction he wouldn't otherwise have.  He should not let her interrogate him either, acting-out people are expert manipulators and interrogators and know how to put others on the spot so they feel impelled to make bad decisions.  Of course it's okay to share necessary information about parenting and exchanges.

ForeverDad,

That's just simply awful.  I've been amazed to read the frequency of false allegations in the stories I've read here.  I'm so glad for you and your son that you are now on the other side of it.

My son's ex was abused as a child, mom went to jail and she has mentioned several times that she will protect her daughter at any cost (understandable).  Allegations of abuse are one of my biggest fears, not only for our son but for the rest of our family as the baby is in our home when she is with him. 

Her father has already accused my son of "mental abuse and torture" due to threats.  When I asked him what threats he was referring to, he said I should read his texts and emails.  When I pushed on it and asked him if he would mind sharing with me the particular threats he had concerns about, he produced nothing except to say he ends his texts w/"lol".  Really?  The conversation is all through texting so I have saved it.

At several points, his ex has said she doesn't trust my son with the baby.  When I asked her specifically why she doesn't trust him (again, through messages), she has no answer.  I wanted to establish the fact that there are no concrete reasons for her feelings for court purposes just in case things take a more serious turn. 

Beyond that and carrying a recording device when they are in close proximity, is there anything else we can do when the baby is in our care to prevent false allegations? 

It seems one of the biggest triggers is having a child. 

"My son's ex was abused as a child... . and she has mentioned several times that she will protect her daughter at any cost (understandable).  Allegations of abuse are one of my biggest fears, not only for our son but for the rest of our family as the baby is in our home when she is with him."

That was my problem.  I thought having a child would make my then-spouse happier watching a child discover the world.  Instead it complicated things.  As wonderful as children are, they don't fix problems, they complicate them.  She fixated on reliving her life through our son.  She had always said her abuser SF moved in with her mother and her sister (her brothers were sent to live with their dad) when she was 3 years old.  And her mother didn't support the girls.  So as my son got close to 3 years old she became paranoid and suspicious of anyone and everyone.  Once my family and most friends were driven away, there was no one left to fixate on except me. :'(  That's when I realized I had to protect myself and my parenting and finally shifted out of fixer/rescuer/appeaser mode.  Setting boundaries of behaviors I would allow made her overreact but frankly she would have overreacted to me no matter what I did.  With this disorder boundaries are continually tested and pressured.  And when weakened they just keep on pushing.

Fortunately, there were no allegations until after I got the legal system involved.  So I took the stance that her post-separation allegations were sour grapes and not real based on actual events.  Not a great defense but it helped.  Yes, CPS investigated the allegations, nothing came of them but it was so frustrating that no one cared that there were so many unsubstantiated allegations.  (Sadly, no one called them false or lies, the most I got from CPS was a passive "unsubstantiated" and the most I got from court was the passive phrase "not credible".)

But over time the scales tilted in my favor.

That's another potential red flag about the dad. It's possible that his daughter is telling him things that aren't true and he believes her. It's also possible he's prone to being inflammatory.


Would your son be willing to take a parenting class? Anything to position him as a responsible, dedicated father to offset the bunk that the opposing party throws around in court. My ex accused me of being mentally ill, abusive, having anger issues, gross neglect of the minor child, etc. There was literally nothing he could produce to substantiate anything. 




As extreme as it sounds, could you install a nanny cam? Not for the BPD mom to observe (and she should not be informed if you do install it), but in case she alleges that the baby was harmed on such and such a date, you can tell the opposing party that you have video footage of that day. Sometimes, just the fact that such footage exists, and that you can say, "We have recordings of every day the baby was in our care and the court is welcome to watch any of it" will give your side credibility.

There are some members here who end up with crappy lawyers, bad judges, and biased GALs or parenting coordinators. For the most part, though, the problem is the system. How easy it is to file continuances, how hard it is to get appropriate consequences for bad BPD behavior. It's an expensive process that moves at a glacial pace, meanwhile your heart is in your throat as you watch your child or grandchild be put in harm's way.

It's not going to be easy, but if you document everything and anticipate their moves -- they're fairly predictable -- you can establish a good outcome.

The best thing about your situation is that your grandchild is young. You can start some of the emotionally healthy parenting approaches that children of BPD parents really need. BPD parents tend to distort reality and invalidate emotions, which really messes with children. It's a good idea to focus on the emotional/psychological issues as much as the legal because that's as much of a battleground (if not more).

Almost all of our cases involve parental alienation, and younger kids are particularly susceptible. Parental alienation almost always targets the entire family, not just the parent, so you'll be getting caught up in that dragnet too. My ex told my son that his grandmother -- whom he loves -- dropped him when he was a baby. No such thing happened. N/BPDx did tell me that he spent the first year of his life in the hospital (his mother was diagnosed bipolar after his birth and was hospitalized in a psychiatric ward) and that one of the nuns dropped him. I don't know if that is true, but he projected it onto my mom.

A nanny cam is a great idea.  Several can be placed to keep her within camera range including one while she sleeps on overnight visits. 

Let your L know if you have not already that the Dad and exgf have already expressed the idea about your son being threatening and abusive in addition to her mother's alleged ( I say this unless you have seen independent evidence that supports his ex's story) abuse.

A nanny cam is definitely something to discuss with my family.  It would give me peace of mind, at least.  I guess there's only so much we can do and after we've done all we can do on our end, leave it in God's hands.  As much as I've read incredibly difficult situations on the boards, there also seems to be many stories in which the truth is finally revealed and the best outcome possible happens.

I will suggest the parenting classes too.  Great idea. 

I had to google "parental alienation"  :) and I can see that happening.  His ex goes back and forth between calling him a great dad and apologizing for all she's done, to telling him he doesn't care about his child and that she wished she didn't give the baby his last name etc.  We've also been characterized negatively at times.

Livednlearned, you've gotten to the heart of the matter.  Yes, this is about a father's right to his child, but ultimately, we're willing to go to this extent because we're concerned for the emotional stability of our granddaughter as she gets older. 

I am reading "Understanding the Borderline Mother" and have been surprised to read about my own experience with my mother.  My father was crucial to my well being.  So, we're hoping to set the legal foundation in order to have the ability to be a very influential part of her life.  Oddly enough, my son has had the desire to parent at least equally since the beginning. 

None of the underlying issues will be apparent to a court from the outset, I'm afraid.  She presents as an involved, loving parent and responsible employee, which is all true.  But then there is the other stuff. 

I haven't witnessed any abuse or threats from my son's end nor seen evidence of either.  They haven't produced anything that would corroborate that, unless they simply aren't sharing it.  Telling his attorney about the accusations is sound advice.  Thank you!

Everything eventually came to light in my situation. Don't let the despair ruin the wonderful times you have with your GD. One thing that often happens is that the BPD parent doesn't comply with court orders, and that becomes the issue court starts to pay attention to. I'd say half the issues in my case were documented BPD problems, and half were stunning acts of non-compliance. My ex looks and acts like a bona fide grown up, has a high-ranking professional job, he's very articulate, very intelligent, has an excellent job. But he all but gave the judge two middle fingers every step of the way.


Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak is the best book I've read on the subject. It's often recommended here, along with Splitting. There is a new one I haven't read called Coparenting with a Toxic Ex. Might be worth looking at both of those. Understanding this stuff in advance is half the battle, imo. And learning to raise kids in a way that validates them (my favorite on this topic is Power of Validation -- a book for parents). Validating my son actually helped me as much as him -- I didn't experience that as a kid, and it was the first step toward understanding what it means to raise an emotionally healthy child.


That's wonderful. The work he puts into his daughter now is going to spare him some serious heartache in the future. He's so lucky to have your support.


I can't tell you how helpful it was that all my communications with N/BPDx were in email -- to some extent text. My ex has some OCD tendencies -- he goes through obsessive impulsive phases. So there are over 10,000 emails alone. I stopped counting. I sent roughly a hundred messages, always short, and only about issues pertaining to our child. Businesslike, neutral, that's it.

It's pretty awful to hear your own emails read aloud in court, so remind him that anything he writes could end up as Exhibit A. You're probably already doing this, but it's worth emphasizing from time to time. If you have a program that captures text messages, make it a regular habit to download them and save them, both locally and on a flash drive, or to the cloud if you want to be triply sure.

Also -- ask for more than you think you'll get. For two reasons. Asking for primary custody gives you something to negotiate down to, and that will hopefully get them to budge closer to reasonable from their unreasonable demands. It also gives the judge some room to compromise, which seems to be how things usually start out.

Talk to your lawyer about this strategy, of course. He or she will likely tell you it isn't going to happen, but for many of us, that isn't the point. The second reason we do this is to establish the narrative that we are the stable parent. You are setting up a storyline that the court will initially not see, but you do. Over time, they'll start to see that the BPD parent isn't tracking properly, but your side is. Takes forever to support that vision of credibility, but that's just how it is in this high-conflict disputes.

I love to hear the success stories!  

That's interesting about non-compliance.  Court and authority will be a struggle for her.  

Will definitely read the book recommendations.  Thank you.

98% of their correspondence is through email and text.  Luckily, he's not much of a communicator by nature, so it makes it easier to just address anything that has to do with his daughter.  Now, if this were one of my other sons. . .we'd be in trouble!  I'll be sure to tell my techy husband your tips for saving messages.  I'm still trying to figure out how to quote another post. . .

We've been debating what to ask for regarding custody so I'm glad you brought that up--was hoping someone would chime in about this. I've often read the same advice on this board--asking for more than you think you'll get or want.  

My son wants to have primary custody.  In his consultation, the L said that would be unlikely and it would be best to file for joint custody.  Probably true, but I wonder if he has some basis for asking.  She hasn't included him in the first major decision they've faced, which is whether or not to place his D in daycare.  He was against it, she was for it and she went ahead and found a provider without consulting him or even giving him a chance to meet and interview her.  She consistently tells him that since the baby "lives" with her, she has the right to make the decisions.  No compromise at all (which could have easily been reached).  

It will be evident through texts and emails that he is willing to compromise when even with the smallest issues, she typically is not.    But by asking for legal custody, does he run the risk of seeming to have an unreasonable request?  Or does he use a strategy that gives him the best chance of a good settlement?

Thank you for your time and information.  There are few people who understand our circumstances.  This has been a Godsend.  I hope to pay it forward someday.

That is great that a huge chunk of communication is done that way.  It might be something to mention in the agreement, all child related communications through email & text, unless it is an emergency (which needs to be defined). 

Have you heard of BIFF communication?  Brief, Informative, Friendly, Firm 

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=133835.0

It sounds as though you have got a handle on communicating this way already, but thought this is a good link to share.

Definitely ask for primary. 

Highlight the text you want to quote, and then click the little box with a yellow square on it (meant to look like a quote bubble that you might see in a cartoon, and is located to the right of the pound sign). It won't look like it's quoted until you preview it or post it, but you'll see some text that says "quote" with brackets.




If the lawyer doesn't have experience with BPD, then this advice would make sense. But in high-conflict divorces, it's a different world. It's unlikely your son will get primary custody now. That doesn't mean he won't eventually get it. However, you will need to justify why you think primary is important. Demonstrating that she has a pattern of being unreasonable and uncooperative, whereas your son is reasonable -- that at least gives you something to work with. Sometimes you'll see advice here about setting boundaries that you know will dysregulate the BPD sufferer, which you then attempt to document. A lot of us try to avoid dysregulating our exes because the kids tend to pay for it. It's a decision each person has to make depending on the situation. In my situation, I didn't have to do anything to dysregulate him -- he drinks to excess and that created a trail of trouble for him. But it's something you might want to think about.


In most states, this is referred to as Rights of First Refusal (ROFR). It means that when one parent can't take care of the child, the other parent must be consulted first before a babysitter or daycare provider is used. You might want to start a thread on that topic alone -- it's one of those things that in theory should work out well for the non-BPD, but there can be a lot of loopholes specifically around how much time to notify. For example, say your son's ex only gives him 30 minutes notice, or says she couldn't reach him, etc. Thinking through loopholes and having consequences is important in these cases. Maybe she makes alternative arrangements without giving much notice -- the consequence might be that if she doesn't give adequate notice (whatever is reasonable) then your son can pick his D up regardless of what arrangements were made. All expenses are to be paid by mom. But written better than that, and addressing both parties so it's fair.


Custody is confusing. In my state, there is primary physical custody, joint legal custody, and then there is a visitation schedule. To make it more confusing, joint legal custody can be further carved out so that one parent has tie-breaker status, or is given decision-making authority over major issues like medical and education decisions. In some states, primary physical custody might also be called residential. So sole or full custody is actually when one parent has primary physical custody and sole legal custody. Even if a parent has full custody, they may have a 50/50 visitation schedule.

When you work with your lawyer, ask how things are done in your state. What your son would be asking for is primary physical custody, not full custody. He could be the primary physical parent and still share 50/50 with his ex, for example. He could have joint legal custody but ask for tie-breaker status. Each state bestows different things on each aspect of custody, so it's important to understand how it works in your state and what really matters to your son. Joint legal means your son's ex cannot make major decisions without consulting him. This will be particularly important when it comes to medical treatment (whether to immunize or not, for example) or whether she gets therapy, or where your GD might go to school.

Each state handles high-conflict parenting in different ways. You might want to find out if you're in a state that uses parenting coordinators. They're usually therapists (better) or lawyers (not as good) who help high-conflict parents come to decisions. Some PCs can make decisions in cases where the parents can't agree. My PC ended up testifying on my behalf against my ex, and that helped me get full custody. Good ones can make a world of difference because judges are more likely to listen to their word than the parents, who typically end up in he said she said disputes.

With visitation, it's important to pay attention to when visits start and end. As one example: A common scenario is every other weekend plus one overnight. But every other weekend can mean starting Saturday morning at 10am, or Friday immediately following the afternoon school bell. It can mean returning the child at 6pm on Sunday, or dropping them off at school on Monday morning. Pretty soon, 50/50 is 60/40, and then 70/30. When kids are particularly young like your GD, visitation might be phased -- some states heed the "tender years" doctrine, which might mean she spends more time with her mom for now, but eventually grows to have equal time with dad over a period of time.

I hope this makes sense -- it's pretty confusing when you start out. In a sense, there are only limited privileges to primary physical custody, but it puts a stake in the ground.

Even if your son doesn't get primary physical, the message is that he is serious about being a dad and wants to be involved, and is concerned that his ex might obstruct his relationship with his D. If his case drags on for years, his lawyer can show that he was consistently concerned with his ex's ability to foster a loving relationship with both parents, and it might make a difference.

Why?  Because if you don't ask you know you won't get.  But if you do ask you might get.  Maybe not now, but eventually.  This is a marathon, not a sprint, but you still have to get as good a start as possible.  Start slow and weak and everything will feel like catch-up.


I have to agree.  Asking only for the typical outcome is not being assertive and proactive.  There is a need for your son to seek custody and as much time as the court will allow.  Yes, admittedly the court is likely to still favor the mother but it will have laid the groundwork for your son to later repeat his request and the reasons for it will, over time, become more and more apparent to the court.

Another factor to consider is that the court doesn't want one parent to feel the winner and the other a loser, so orders typically have some good, some not so good, for both parents.  As some judges have stated, "Neither of you will like my order."  Yeah, but it's sure to be better than what the disordered, obstructive parent would agree to.  My point is that if you go in asking for the usual final outcome and the other parent is demanding 101%, you'll likely get something in between, that is, less than the typical outcome.  Yes, even judges will make decisions that seem much like negotiated settlements, neither side got what was wanted, it came out somewhere in between.

Yes, with a small child you son may not get custody - now - but it does reflect the facts as he knows it and over time the court may agree.  (My son was 3 when we separated, 4 when I filed, 6 when our divorce was final, 9 when I got custody and 11 when I got majority time.  What else was I to do?  I was only doing what I could, being a reasonably normal parent.)

The "I am so drunk" tweets, for instance.  Were those sent when the baby was in her care?  At the least, proof of underage drinking.  If just ONE reference to being drunk, it might not carry much weight at all. 

Dysregulating the person.  It can be done in court.  If your L can throw a few questions that pushes buttons, she may let her mask slip in front of the Judge.

During my son's sole custody hearing, his attorney lobbed a few easy questions, such as what type of formula do you feed the baby, what are her favorite baby foods, etc.  The she would slip in a button pusher: Why did you post pictures of your daughter on your Facebook calling her Fatty and Wideload?  (She intentionally overfed the baby because she liked fat babies.  It took us a year to get her height/weight ratio in normal range.)  She gave SIX separate answers in a space of a minute from the pediatrician advised her to feed her cereal mixed into all of her bottles to I told her to do it. 

A few more easy questions, then do you think smoking in the car with the baby is unhealthy for the baby? ( Part of the PI's testimony) She hemmed and hawed and finally, but grudgingly, admitted  to "maybe".  Do you often have convicted felons take care of the baby?  The PI's discovered she was leaving the baby with her exbf who has an extensive criminal record and telling my son she was at the babysitters. 

His L did this about 5 to 6 times.

His exgf then went off into this totally deluded story about how my son had a baby with his previous girlfriend (even calling the fictional child by name) and kicked them out so she could move in.  She had even turned in the witness chair trying to make eye contact with the Judge.  He stopped her story mid-way, and announced that my son was awarded sole custody.  The Judge even looked a bit rattled at her behavior. 

My son's L said to me after court: "You said she was crazy, but not how crazy".

My son was 20 when he got his then 7 month old daughter. 

All great information.  

Livednlearned, our state sounds similar, if not the same, regarding custody.  There is legal and physical custody.  We discussed the different options this morning, but will need a little more clarity from his attorney.  They do use parenting coordinators in our state.  Thanks for the directions for quoting--tech savvy I'm not. :)  

Everyone's recommendations are really helping us flesh it all out before he sees the attorney.  I'll be reading through the thread several more times.  We're going to follow the advice of asking for more than we think we can get unless his L points out a major red flag for not doing so.

It doesn't take much to dysregulate his ex.  I'm not sure if it effects the baby at all yet, but when she pushed my son, the baby was in his arms.  She also threw her diaper bag next to the carseat she was in on the couch.  I witnessed this.  Hmmm. . . guess I answered my own question.  

The ex didn't have the baby in her care when she was drinking but has tweeted more than once about drinking.  There are other behaviors that are evident through tweets.  

I had a guilt attack last night that went along these lines:  "what are we doing?  This girl's life has been train wreck through no fault of her own and now we're only going to add to her misery.  She really loves the baby and maybe we're making a mistake."  

This is normal, right?  

The ROFR was mentioned earlier but I didn't process it.  This is useful to know.  I'm not sure if we have that option in our state but will check w/the L.

catnap, so glad to hear it went your way too.  An unplanned pregnancy is hard enough (didn't expect to be a grandmother for at least 10 more years!) and having a situation like this only compounds the stress.  How is your son doing as the primary caretaker?  

Whenever his ex is upset by even the slightest conflict, she bolts ~ unless she can respond through a screen.  She was upset with me about a misunderstanding regarding pick up times and hung up on me, then wouldn't answer her phone.  It was the smallest issue.  I don't know how she'll handle it if she's in front of a judge.  

Yes. You're a kind person and have compassion for your GD's momma.

You're also a kind person who wants your GD to grow up to be safe and emotionally healthy, and to have a good relationship with your son.

It can be hard to have both when this disorder is involved. If you end up doing a custody evaluation and have psychiatric evaluations done, the best-case scenario is that your GD's mom gets diagnosed and seeks treatment. Unfortunately, BPD sufferers tend to be averse to a diagnosis because that would involve taking responsibility, and blaming others is a deeply rooted coping mechanism.

Your GD's mom may love her D, but the impulsive nature of many of her BPD behaviors will put your GD at risk, unfortunately. She's going to need a lot of oversight, and a lot of strong advocates for her D, and unfortunately, court intervention to do what's best for your GD.

The legal process is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. It's a blunt instrument and very rule-bound to the point of seeming completely illogical. But one thing it did do for me was to shine light on what was and wasn't acceptable and reasonable behavior. Having a uBPD brother, a uBPD grandmother, a father with strong N traits made it really hard for me to discern healthy behavior myself, which cued me up perfectly for an N/BPDx husband. Then I got into the court system and suddenly there were a lot of people with front row seats to my broken family's dysfunctional dynamics. I've been lucky -- everyone involved in my case agreed that N/BPDx was disordered. It took a lot of money and a lot of time, but in high-conflict divorces, that doesn't always lead to good outcomes. For me, it did.

In the midst of all this turmoil, you can actually heal stuff you might have otherwise not noticed. That's been my silver lining.

To get there, though, you need to bring your titanium backbone to the table, and to do that you have to decide that the family is going to be emotionally healthy. Some people aren't going to be ready for that, and others are going to complain along the way. But it's worth it. You'll hopefully see the effects in your GD as she grows up 

He is really doing a wonderful job.  Has learned to do little girl's hair, do father-daughter pedicures (loved his pink toenail polish  :)), cook mac n'cheese, takes her to the park several days a week, etc.  We pick her up Friday from preschool (she is 3 1/2 now; he is 24)and then drop her off at her preschool Monday mornings.  He works all day Friday, Sat and Sunday to get 40 hours in at his job.  Last semester all of his classes were M-F.  Friday only had a morning class, then off to work.  They live about 20 minutes from us.  

He also found a really good therapist to work with.  He does get very tired, but never, ever regrets what he did.  Has become very adept at cleaning the normal spills and stains that seem common to all toddlers.  Has a set bath and bedtime routine for her, takes her to all her doctor visits (well checks, shots or when she is sick).  

Having an unexpected baby at 20, he said made him grow up in a hurry.  

Yes, I did have qualms about what we were doing, I did have some empathy.  His intention was to never cut off her parents, but they were not in court and never contacted him.  Even her sister seemed to support him, until she tried to help her sister kidnap the baby a day before court.  Son had gotten a TRO in the baby's name.  He took her to her very delayed 6 month check up (exgf had kept telling him she would do it and cancelled an appointment he had made).  She had lied to the pediatrician's office and told them she had a CPO and to contact her if he showed.  She call the local police repeated her lie.  Fortunately he had the court order on him so nothing happened and actually got a police escort out of the doctor's office.  We could not get the report in time for court, but it was used in the terminating her parental rights case.  And yes, he switched to a different pediatrician.  

We are helping him financially by paying his car insurance and he is on our cell phone plan.  I love buying her clothes, so we pay for the majority of those.  

Of course, she is still telling people that he "stole her daughter" "abused her", etc.  

I am sure that his exgf does love the baby, and if her life was full of struggles that is sad, but it doesn't give her a pass to bad behavior.  

Here's one way that part of the motion can be phrased... . "Father of the child is asking for custody and majority time.  Father realizes this is not a typical request, but he also realizes this is not a typical case.  While father can share his child, thus far mother has refused to share similarly.  Father believes that over time it will become apparent that this request is not only reasonable but also necessary.  However, father accepts that the court may not discern enough evidence of this as yet and so if the court decides to start with less responsibility and time, such as equal time and a method to handle impasses when major parenting issues arise, father will of course abide by the court's temporary order."

That way you get your ethical "foot in the door".  However, the likely outcome is that mother will be assigned as temporary custodial parent and majority time parent.  That doesn't mean father caves in or doesn't even try, no, it just mean he does the best he reasonably can along each step of his path to fatherhood.  No one asks for more than his reasonable best.

Of course, we're peer support, 'been there, done that', but not lawyers here.

Once again, a profound thank you.  My son's ex has been having a good spell the last few days and her father actually dropped the baby off this weekend (first time ever).   Combine that with the guilt I was experiencing, and it made for some serious second thoughts.  The words you all took the time to wrote are so appreciated. 

When I first started realizing there was a serious problem with his exGF, I confided in my cousin, who is a social worker.  I really wanted to help the exGF.  She told me I needed to prepare for the fact that my son may need to file for primary custody someday.  I found it out of the realm of possibilities at that point.  And here we are.  She said sometimes you just can't save both parent and child.  Your words reminded me of that. 

A titanium backbone--I will hold on to that!  And yes, this has all brought some issues to light from my own family of origin and I am better off for the knowledge I've attained through this. 

catnap, to know this can work and to know of someone who is actually living it, is so encouraging.  You must be a proud momma!  It sounds like he's doing a wonderful job w/his D.  Sounds like he had some excellent role models.  Thank you for sharing your experience.  And I like the clothes shopping too!  I have all boys, so it's a whole new world.   :) 

ForeverDad,  oohhh, I like that!  Thanks so much.  We'll be meeting the L this week.  I'll have a long list with me.   :)

My ex had a bad childhood.  We were married for a dozen years before we had a child, yet apparently she couldn't shake her memories of the past.  As our son was approaching 3 years of age, the same age she was when her abusive SF joined her family, she started devolving, fearing abductors lurking in the woods, unsafe stores, unsafe daycares, unsafe schools, diving away our friends, driving away my family, finally with virtually no one left she started focusing on me.  It was at that point I realized there was no hope left to keep the marriage together, not if I wanted to avoid risk of false allegations putting me in an orange jumpsuit for the next 10 or more years.  My ex has always professed love for our son.  But it's always been a bit warped and unbalanced, often in intangible ways, just enough that you sense something's wrong somewhere.  But, still, it doesn't give any parent a pass to bad behavior.


Sadly, it is what it is, not what you or your son wished it would be.  Accept that and step up to the plate.

Disclaimer:  His exGF is still young, she may choose to change.  No one knows what the future may hold for her.  So if she chooses to behave better as a lifestyle and not for a public face, almost always with the help of an experienced but emotionally neutral professional, then the future may not be as bleak and difficult as it appears now.  Prepare for the worst but hope for the best.

Yes, ForeverDad, that's exactly the mindset we've adopted.  She doesn't seem as drastically disordered as other people so there's a glimmer of hope that with maturity, things will get better.  At the same time, we can't count on that. 

It's interesting that your son's mother didn't begin struggling until he was the age that she was when she was first abused.  That may explain why my son's ex doesn't seem concerned about daycare and seems to be a very typical new mom in many ways.  Maybe that will change when our GD gets closer to the age that she remembers being abused.  Something to be aware of.   

The petition for custody will be signed on Friday.  Will give updates.  Thanks to everyone again!

Tell your son to TAPE EVERYTHING!  I taped my uBPD wife and she went beserk.  Luckily I had it taped. She found out and MY lawyer freaked... . I don't know why, since it IS ALLOWED in our state.  So, at his advice, I stopped recording.  Sure enough, 3 weeks later, I went to get my daughter and the wife accused me of making derogatory comments, as our 1 y/o daughter screamed and balled her eyes out, because she didn't want to go to her mommy... . strange, and made me wonder WHY she doesn't want to go to mommy... .

I had noticed she wasn't receptive to women lately and told her that, at which point, she took it personally and snapped.  I wish I had my recorder!  I told my lawyer, but he already received a letter from her lawyer threatening a TRO again.  I had enough of the false allegations and told my lawyer to write back that I would file harassment charges if she didn't stop with the false allegations.  He advised me to carry the recorder again.  The next time I went to get my daughter, she was thrilled to see me.  I had her my 2 days, dropped her off and she screamed again!  She DID NOT want to go to her Mommy!  I am scared to think why, but I can't prove anything and am working my butt off to save money and hire a P.I... to see if she is even watching our daughter or if she leaves her with her mother all day... . or God forbid, she is abusing her  

I go to mediation for the first time Thursday Morning... . I hope it goes well... . My wife was treating me kindly the last 2 days, so I don't know if she's painting me white, being nice because mediation is here or if she's realizing she's losing the best thing to happen to her... . Wish me luck!  Good Luck to you too!

That was my experience from the time we separated (son was a little less than 4) until maybe when the divorce was final (age 6)?  He never said why, but he was always happy to come running to me then upon return he would always fuss, cry, whimper, fight not to go back.  I recall times when she'd glare at me and accuse, "What did you do to him?"  Hey, he just didn't want to go back.  I'm guessing he eventually accepted the new normal and stopped fighting exchanges.  I've always fell a loss about that change, that he lost a little bit of his spark.

I don't know the full story in my case, I wasn't there at ex's residence, but apparently he wasn't being directly abused.  Years later the court did criticize his mother for 'disparaging' father in son's presence, years late.  But I've never heard of any direct abuse.  Similarly, for all you know there may not be 'actionable' abuse in your case, it may be that your child just desperately wants to stay with you.

Do you know yet when she will be served? 

Ask to have all contact between your son and the mother pertaining to the babylogged through Our Family Wizard or a similar site.  The correspondence can be entered as evidence down the road if you need it.  Plus, she can't deny receiving it since it provides a read receipt even if accessed as a text.

I hope your mediation was productive, kfifd196.

Here's an update on our situation:

We had our meeting w/the L yesterday.  It had been a few weeks since our initial consultation and much has happened since then.  My son made some gains, but there was also a lot of conflict that his L didn't know about until yesterday.  She has so much she'd like to add to the petition that it needs to be rewritten.

Gains:  His ex has a new schedule for work and needs childcare on the weekends.  She offered for him to have their D Saturday through Monday morning every other week.  That's the good news, though the L said it's too little, too late--now that she needs help, she's more willing to share time. 

Her father is going to help w/transportation once a week.  Suddenly, they're both being very nice and cooperative.  I received a long text from her dad stating that he FINALLY has gotten through to his D in explaining the reality of working and giving my son his time w/his D.  A very different tune from a couple of weeks ago. 

One thing I learned from yesterday's meeting is that no information is inconsequential in sharing w/a L.  There were things she honed in on that I would have thought to have little importance. 

Once my son explained various events and his concerns, she was able to see even further that there is a significant problem w/his ex in obstructing his involvement in decisions and time w/his D.  We told her about her emotional instability and were able to provide concrete examples.  While she did say that if there were any mental issues, they would surface eventually, she also said that she sees this kind of behavior frequently with teen mothers.  They feel it is their baby and they don't need to share.  A judge would most likely regard her behavior as typical of a teenager. 

So, I'm not sure what to think.  Have I been wrong in suspecting a disorder?  I don't know.  His ex has been having a good week and made my son a Father's Day gift.  It's very confusing.

My son pushed for sole legal custody (the conversation began w/the L assuming it would be joint).  Being able to make decisions regarding his D is very important to him as she is unwilling to consider his perspective.  Of course, she told him it would be unlikely but said it would not hurt him to ask for it.

As far as physical custody, it is currently decided that he will ask for shared physical custody w/a 50/50 split.  And this had me up last night.  The various options for custody and the long meeting w/the L left us mentally exhausted. We spent a lot of time discussing legal custody.   It took me a while to process all of it after we left, and as recommended here, I'm thinking he should change "shared" to "primary" physical custody.  My son (and we agree) is not concerned about her ability as a mother, so it's difficult to justify at this point.  Thoughts?

The L will be contacting his phone provider to request that they save all correspondence.  If my son hadn't been saving his texts, much of it could have been lost.  She said it's also better to have the information come from the server.  So that's good.

As it stands, the L is going to rewrite the petition and send it to my son for review.  Once that is completed, it will be submitted to family court and his ex will be mailed the petition.  There is no option for a process server in our state unless she fails to show up for court. 

In Bill Eddy's book, "Splitting", he recommends giving advance notice when there is going to be "key times of risk of extreme behavior".  He gives an example of letting the other parent/partner know when he/she will be receiving papers from a L or for court procedures.  Of course, this is only if there are no safety issues.  I think this could be a good idea instead of blindsiding her w/the mailed paperwork. 

Feedback is appreciated!

With a very young child it would be extremely difficult to get a court to assign  minority time to a mother.  So it's okay to ask for 50/50 "at this time" and leaving door open.  I think asking for primary custody is enough  Usually primary and equal/majority time go hand in hand.

In my county for children under 3 years the non-primary parent got alternate weekends and 2-3 visits in between on the published guideline/sample schedule.  So if your son ends up getting minority time in a temp order then the court will be sure that he gets frequent visits in between alternate weekends.

Why the father was able to say better things recently, I don't know, maybe it's as he described but perhaps too it is that they sensed your son was standing up for himself as father and not being intimidated, they pushed and found out they hit a wall?

Mothers' emotions are all over the place after childbirth.  And if she's nursing that may prolong such behaviors.  The situation here is difficult, of course a mother should have plenty of time with their baby, but so should the father too.  It's hard to say where her behaviors will end up.  (Minors usually aren't diagnosed with PDs because sometimes their teen behaviors are a bit extreme.  So from here in remote anonymous land it's even harder to say.)

I wouldn't worry too much about whether she fits the clinical definition of BPD -- if she has traits instead of 5-9 of the DSM criteria, you're probably still looking at a high-conflict custody battle. She might have traits, or maybe her symptoms aren't severe -- which is good. But a lot of the strategies, both psychological and legal, will apply whether she displays mild or severe behaviors. It's hard for clinicians to diagnose BPD in adults, much less teens, and even harder for lay people. But BPD is also labeled Emotional Regulation Disorder, so anyone who struggles to regulate emotions is going to have issues. Let's hope your GD's mother isn't BPD, and that she'll outgrow some of the behaviors, but continue to treat her as though her behavior is on the spectrum.


I understand what you're saying. I guess the question is what's the worst that will happen if your son asks for primary physical and sole legal? If you worry that your son can't justify asking for primary physical, you could ask the court to consider assigning a parenting coordinator. In effect, you ask for the thing you want but know you can't get (primary physical custody) while giving the judge a reasonable middle ground (parenting coordinator). So it's documented that your son is very committed to his role as a father, and meanwhile you get a third-party professional involved who could potentially testify at a later date if it comes to that.

The key is to be strategic in selecting a PC. Ideally, it will be someone who has a regular practice as a child psychologist, and who is ethical. There is a whole forensic psychologist business that's known to be lucrative, and you don't want a PC who got into the business of counseling in order to make bank. You want someone who genuinely cares about the welfare of the kids. In my state, the PC is actually sworn in before a judge -- she legally has an extension of judicial duties. Some states have PCs that may or may not be sworn in.

It isn't the end of the world if your son doesn't ask for primary physical custody -- any modification to a custody order is difficult, but it can happen. My experience is that it helps to be consistent, but I also have a very disordered ex who gave the court a lot to work with. A judge may be more lenient with teen parents.


 

If you think your GD's mom is not severely disordered, it might work to follow this advice. How do you envision carrying this out?

As FD said asking for primary leaves the door wide open. 

As to why all the sudden they are offering more time and being nice is hard to say, except I would be very cautious in accepting it at face value. 

I do think that notifying her in advance is warranted.  To me, very careful consideration needs to be used as to how the notification is done and dutifully documented/and or recorded.  Her reaction and well as her fathers might tell you and your L quite a bit. 

Giving her a heads up should not be so far in advance that she, her parents or their lawyer have time to sabotage the plans to file.  She may feel she has to make your son look worse than her.  A common overreaction is to file allegations of some sort, if not DV or threat of DV then child abuse, neglect or endangerment.  If she files something after the papers are served then your son to take the stance that subsequent complaints are retaliatory 'sour grapes' of a troubled relationship and not based on facts.

Thanks for the replies.  :)

My son decided he would like to change the petition to primary physical custody, knowing it probably won't happen, but at least he's making his wishes known to both his ex and the court.  He has waited a long time to feel that he finally has a voice.  As my husband said, it shouldn't be about what he thinks he can get, but what he wants.  S really feels it's in the best interest to have primary physical and legal custody of his D b/c he's more willing to compromise and consider her perspective and desires (actually, 98% of the time, he's the only willing to compromise--unless there is something for his ex to gain).  So thank you all for the support.  I really feel at peace about his decision. 

His L said that the courts are leaning more and more toward a 50/50 split custody situation.  With teenagers, it it may be a little different, but given his involvement, she said my son's chances are very good.  It also helps that he has built-in daycare (raising my hand). 

He received a court date in the mail on Saturday for child support.  I guess we'll become familiar w/family court quickly! 

I think his ex (based on my limited knowledge) definitely meets the DSM Criteria for BPD, but I'd like to believe that she will change w/some maturity.  Her father has had problems w/her for years and my son said her behavior was erratic even before she became pregnant.  Initially, I thought her outbursts were due to hormones, and hormones may exacerbate the symptoms, but her moods seem to change based on circumstance (triggers) rather than a cycle.  I read a study on this just last week--the study found that BPD symptoms are not alleviated during pregnancy as you might find w/PMS.  But as you said, LnL, the strategies will still apply so I'll try not to waste my energy on figuring it all out.  Until or unless she's diagnosed, we just won't know.

Her father offered more transportation help today.  So strange, but yes, we're not letting our guard down.  He knows we're aware of some of the events that have happened over the last few weeks and understands I know more about my son's rights than he does or is willing to admit to.  He is also on the hook for childcare over the weekend if my son doesn't take the baby.  That might have something to do with it.   :) Or maybe he's just being nice.  That would be great. 

As far as giving his ex some type of advance notice regarding the custody papers, Eddy provides a great example that we can tweak.  He writes, "Say, 'Next week, my lawyer will be sending you some papers for a court hearing about our parenting plan and child support.  Please take your time to think about these matters, and let me know if you think we could reach an agreement before the hearing.  Or, we can just let the judge decide.'  Giving a heads-up and showing your flexibility will reduce the sense of a threat so that extreme behavior is less likely to be triggered."

My son doesn't really care about making things easier on her right now but I'll revisit it with him.  It may make things easier on him too.  I think it would be best to let her know a few days after his paperwork has been submitted to family court.  Not too soon, not too late, as FD suggested.  We'll make sure it goes through email so we have documentation.  His L was happy to hear that so much of what we relayed to her has traceable evidence.  And she also said, this case has a good chance of going to a hearing.  I hope she's wrong, but at least my son will be prepared.  To my knowledge, his ex does not have an attorney.

Happy Belated Father's Day to all of the warriors~and to the mothers doing double duty!

Ah, so they've already accessed the legal system.  So they won't be so shocked to see him also file papers in court.  Yes, she may complain how unfair it is, but actually they were the first to involve the courts.

Frankly too, it's good to have a legal agreement, settlement or order to reduce future conflict extremes.

It must make you proud that he is handling things like this. Being a teen parent with someone who has BPD traits -- whether full blown or not -- that's not an easy way to get started in life. My guess is that he is going to figure out a lot of important things that took many of us decades to learn.


He's lucky to have you! And so is your GD.


I do think it's helpful to read what you can about BPD for your sake, though. Not necessarily to decide if your GD's mom is or isn't BPD. The more I read about BPD, the more it helped me detach, which was important for my well-being. It helped to make sense of something that is really, really hard to make sense of. It might be different for you because you aren't enmeshed with the BPD parent (although it sounds like there are BPD behaviors in your own family), but when you're trying to figure out what drives this person to do xy or z odd behaviors, understanding the disorder and how emotions works can really help you get centered. It's still not easy! But every little bit helps.


It's hard for anyone to remain courteous and cooperative when things start getting legal, so I hope the tone stays this way for everyone's benefit, especially your GD. It's interesting that he has gone through this and ended up getting custody -- I imagine there are some complex internal dynamics for him in terms of watching your son assert his rights.


Great advice.

I suppose they won't be as shocked at his petition as I thought they might be now that his ex has filed for CS.  He already provides for all of his D's needs when she's with us and we cover transportation costs and often give his ex things for her house.   But as you said FD, it's just as well that they go through the courts~it will be cut and dry with less opportunity for conflict (hopefully).


We've had a rough few years w/our son but this has changed him in many ways for the better.  And I am very relieved that even though it was too late to prevent a pregnancy, he did recognize that his relationship was unhealthy early on.  I didn't have that awareness for many, many years.  Now that he's begun legal action, I think he's finally feeling hopeful for the future and has a sense of control that he's been lacking. 

Yes, LnL, detachment is still a struggle for me.  I seem to be a maternal figure for his ex and that complicates detachment for me.  I want to love her into wellness!  Sound familiar?     It goes back to my own codependent tendencies, so I've also learned quite a bit about myself and I will certainly keep reading.

One of the most difficult aspects of pursuing legal action has been knowing that there will be strain between the families.  I'm sure you can all relate to that.  The custody petition does not paint her in a favorable light, that's for sure. It's hard to avoid.

Why can't I figure out how to properly quote?  lol  I'll keep trying.   :)

In my opinion the above is a contradiction in terms, how can an emotionally unstable parent be a great mom? I assume she means that the baby is fed and clothed and she doesn't beat the child (as far as you can tell). IMHO thats a pretty low bar for a parent.

I do agree with what others that have shared that the courts often favor the mom, but it could be that statistically woman file for divorce 80% of the time and perhaps the courts ear is tuned to all those fake tears.

I've been on both sides of the fence and while a defendant, I was taken to the cleaners... as the plaintiff i won... so my thought based on my experience is to file quickly because in my experience and what I've read, the unstable parent involved is going to bare her teeth and your son is going to lose unless he takes active steps to win and then the battle really begins and when its done... the child ends up paying the price... . when that unstable parent that seems to be a good mom... turns out to be just plain old batcrap crazy...

IMHO...

I felt that also with my son's ex, only to eventually come to the realization I was very disposable.  I was handy to keep my son roped into the r/s, buy things for her and the baby, and when I started setting boundaries, I was painted black. 


Will be interesting to see what your L says about this.

Purely through happenstance, my ex's motion for child support (3/23) crossed in the mail with my divorce motion (3/24).  My motion trumped hers so my lawyer said hers would be merged into mine.  You may find it similar when your son files his motions, his may trump hers and her case may be merged into his case.  I recall I still had to appear in juvenile court on her scheduled date and prove I had filed for divorce in family court on the other side of the building, but then the judge closed her case with references pointing to my case.

Ah, so there is the possibility the cases could be merged.   

My son's attorney is aware of the CS appearance, which will be in July.  She warned him that his ex would most likely file for CS upon receiving his petition, but she beat him to the punch.  I wondered how they'd handle both.

I don't know that I'll have to worry about disengaging much longer.  I think his ex will be doing that first.  I had a chance to review the petition and it's brutal. 

Now where did I put that titanium backbone?  I can't seem to find it anywhere!

While most of it is accurate, some of it is exaggerated.  We'll want to make some changes.  But it will surely end civility between the two families, I'm afraid, and will send his ex into a tailspin. 

Just yesterday, she asked if we could take the baby 3 nights this week b/c of her work schedule.  Oy.

In stark legal language things can seem that way, but as long as it is truthful, no use sugar-coating it. 

You're right, catnap.  I have no experience w/legal documents outside of a will, so I was a bit shocked at first.  I didn't realize his L would get so detailed in the petition.  It just needs to be dealt with or my son will be in this situation indefinitely.  My desire to avoid conflict and causing someone else pain/anger are very poor reasons to not do what is best for our GD.  This is the only way it can be done. 

And I can completely see the possibility that I'm disposable as well.  I'm not sure that's always the case, but it probably is often enough.  Thanks for keeping me in reality.   :)

DontPanic, the contradiction is pretty blatant isn't it?  It's easy to love a little ball of cuteness, but how likely is it that she'll relate to her D any differently than she does everyone else as her D gets older?  That is the chance we just can't take.

Petition will be signed and submitted tomorrow.  Say a prayer for us?

I found that N/BPDx dysregulated when he received any papers, or nearing court dates, or on anniversaries or holidays. He also seems to dysregulate worse on Friday nights. I made sure I didn't read any emails from him right before bed, and in the beginning before I figured out how things worked, I wish I had waited until my lawyer was in the office before reading N/BPDx's emails. It's awful to get jacked up on stress when you can't reach your lawyer and decipher what is or isn't an issue.

There's a good chance that the petition will trigger both GD's mom and the father.

Prepare for the worst and hope for the best. 

GREAT tips, livednlearned.  I can't imagine how difficult it must have been going through a custody battle on top of a divorce w/someone having BPD/NPD traits.  Your strength amazes me. 

There is no doubt in my mind that this will result in some serious fallout.  They have been in control for the most part since the birth of the baby and as long as that isn't threatened, everything is calm. 

I have found that any amount of requested change is very difficult for my son's ex to handle~even the smallest of changes.  I remember feeling that way myself for many years.  It was a subtle form of abandonment or feeling that I couldn't count on the person who was making the changes anymore.  When you're in control, you can prevent this from happening. 

On top of that, the criticism she will experience is going to be intense and she won't see the problems with her behaviors.  She'll feel she is the victim.  The baby represents someone who loves her unconditionally.  By petitioning for custody, this will be the ultimate threat in her eyes. This is going to be very, very difficult for her. 

I think it's probably best that we take Eddy's advice and prepare both her father and her for the petition (in vague terms).  They both seem to initially fly off the handle and then given some time, become more reasonable.  It won't prevent the extreme emotions, as I think anyone receiving papers of this nature would experience that, but it will maybe soften the blow if they are expecting it.

That's so true! My heart still pounds when I open my mailbox and see those big fat lawyer envelopes. I'm not sure if a petition is the same as what in my court is called the claim, but you will probably receive some kind of counter response. Prepare your son for that, and prepare yourself too. The counter claim I received knocked me sideways, it was filled with flat-out lies and character assassination. My lawyer told me that the judge doesn't read them, and most claims/counter claims are highly charged and reflect more the raw feelings after a couple splits, and everyone in the court system knows that. It's like people need to get it out of their system so they can get down to the business of settling things.

Still, it's hard to read this stuff. My lawyer always emailed me things in advance too, and I got into the habit of sending legal documents to two trusted friends who helped center me and bring me back off the ledge.

Eventually, it isn't so triggering. Fortunately, you have a little bundle of sweetness to redirect your attention!

How are things going? 

Thanks for checking in, catnap.

The latest:  there were many changes that needed to be made to the petition for custody.  My son's attorney was out of town this week, so it will not be submitted until Monday.  In hindsight, maybe we spent too much time on this. 

Today, my son received a petition for custody from his ex.  She's asking for primary physical custody and joint legal custody.  It probably explains why they've been so nice and helpful lately.  She shut down her social media and has really cleaned up her act in the last couple of weeks. 

Will it matter that she submitted her claim first?  I'm freaking out a little bit.  She doesn't have an attorney, submitted her petition herself, and only stated that she is the child's mother and lives close to daycare and schools as reasons for her request. 

There were a couple of issues this week that upset her but she maintained her composure (for her anyway). 

We've had the baby quite a bit b/c of her work schedule so he's gaining ground w/overnights. 

Do you know if she filed the Petition with the court? I think if she had a lawyer, then the petition would have to be properly noticed. If she is representing herself, the court might do it for her. If she properly filed the complaint, then usually there is a set period of time for you to respond.

As far as I can tell, the only advantage to filing first is that you set the pace. Fortunately, (and assuming she has filed correctly), you have been working on this and are prepared, so you aren't taken off guard and scrambling to catch up.

Being the defendant in a custody case isn't the same as a criminal case -- in custody cases, it just means she filed first. I don't believe it has much bearing on anything other than starting the clock.

I really do not think that her filing first is a big deal.  One thing that really may have helped my son's case was that his ex did not have an attorney though asked several times before the case started if she wanted a delay to obtain one.  She was apparently confident she could win because she was the mother and could sway the Judge with her lies. 

Did the petition come with a court date?

Yes, the petition came with a date and family court must have filed it for her.  It looks like someone added some information to her reason for filing--maybe her dad?  The handwriting is different.  The date for CS is July 15th and for custody/visitation July 31st. 

There is a section for her to fill out regarding paternity which she did not complete.  If there was an acknowledgement of paternity signed, she was supposed to attach a copy.  She left it all blank. The court must think that paternity hasn't been established b/c they included information on DNA testing.  She texted my son today, saying she was right when she told him the paper at the hospital didn't mean anything and they'd be doing a paternity test.  I think she really believes this but I also think she may just be trying to engage him, guessing he received the paperwork.  He knows better and he didn't respond. 

I'm not sure that she can afford an attorney but she may not qualify for legal assistance either.  We'll see what happens when she finds out my son has an attorney.  I wouldn't be surprised if she also felt she could persuade a judge, though she'll see all of the problems she has caused in the petition and that might scare her. 

I didn't see anything in the paperwork that suggested a response from him but I'll look it over again.  Yes, I'm very happy we are prepared for this!  I'm glad to know it probably won't make much difference who files first.  All of the attorney meetings are documented too, so if they go to a hearing, it can be established that he was pursuing legal counsel a while ago.

Thank you for the input! 

We secretly did a DNA test when the baby was a few weeks old.  I believe it was $400, which was more expensive, but would hold up in court.  Son wanted that to know he was the child's father and in the event she pulled "you are not the father" card.  Plus, on his L's instruction he filed for an amended birth certificate naming him as the father. 

I do not know what the rules are where you live, but she will either come with an attorney or waive a delay of the hearing to get an attorney (do not know if that will be allowed since she filed the petition). 

The fact that she filed first may actually strengthen your case since she will not have had time to try and think of how to "spin" certain things in your petition. 

Am very interested in what your attorney has to say once you are able to contact her.

Yes, everyone told my son to get a paternity test done too but he never felt the need to do that--although we never considered the possibility that his ex could deny he is the father.  Sounds like your son covered all his bases and it paid off. 

From what I understand, in my son's case, paternity was established when he signed what is called an "acknowledgement of paternity" in our state.  It establishes equal rights as a parent.  His name is on the birth certificate and his D has our last name too.  Maybe for CS and custody purposes, paternity needs to be verified?   

I'm anxious for him to talk to his L too.  There's wisdom in waiting to open court papers when you know your L is available!  I forgot that little piece of advice. 

And I was thinking exactly the same thing--that maybe this will work in his favor since she didn't list any concerns about my son's parenting in her petition.  Anything after the fact may seem disingenuous. 

Will update tomorrow! 

Strange as it may seem, this claim does happen.  In such cases it means the mother is saying another man was the father, in other words, she was intimate with multiple men in that time frame.  Not a badge of honor, one would think.

At least the mother didn't allege that in v2001's case.

Yesterday, my son sent his ex a text to give her some warning about his petition~ she may receive it as early as today.  Within minutes, my husband and I got phone calls from her father.  He was livid.  The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. 

I responded to his voicemail through text, keeping it brief and to the point.  He lashed out through texts and had a complete knee-jerk reaction, made many assumptions, and attacked me personally.  I don't think I've ever been treated like this in my entire life.  I decided to try the good cop/bad cop scenario as my husband had no intention of responding to his call.  Her father does seem to calm down when I validate his feelings, so I hope that's a good sign of at least some stability.  I'm always so grateful that we know what to expect~it makes it a little easier to take it all in. 

The last obstacle is their reaction to the petition details.  I'm not sure if it was beneficial to his ex to give her some warning or not.  But we had good intentions.

I'll start another thread as we head into the next stage.  I have more questions and you all have been SO helpful. :)

Predictable.  But it was unreasonable of her family to expect no response or a passive response.  She's mother, she can ask for custody.  He's father, he can ask for custody too.

This sounds like an extinction burst. After trampling your boundaries and having things their way, you asserted a boundary. Boundaries feel like a personal attack to BPD sufferers. How dare you say no!

If the dad is a narcissist, he is going to have his own horse in this race. He might have a hard time distinguishing the difference between his own custody battle and this one, which can be good and bad. Bad because he will be very invested in winning, and good because he will think you are dumber than a stump. He already won custody once, he can do it again, blah blah blah. That doesn't usually make for a winning strategy.

He might also become very manipulative and try to good cop you right back, so watch for that. "Let's do what's right for GD, the kids need our help. My daughter has issues and things will be so much better if we tell her she gets full custody but then in reality we see to it that your son gets his time." That kind of thing.

Phase One of the custody process is finally complete.  I'm so very relieved.  S's exgf received the petition yesterday and I was barraged with texts from her father, who apparently read the petition while she was at work, and later in the day from his ex. 

The texts expressed all kinds of emotions ~ anywhere from outrage (LnL~you were right on target~her father actually used the phrase "how dare you?" to invoking sympathy ("they're still learning, these things shouldn't be held over their heads" and "I'm hurt by this after all we've done to try to help the kids" to attacks ("how could you be so horrible to the mother of your granddaughter?" to threats of retaliation, false accusations, apologies, sarcasm and guilt trips.  It was stated several times that I have been lying.  You name it, I got it.  My son also received several texts from his ex but there's no mistake that our family as a whole is considered to be the enemy.

It really is remarkable how predictable the behaviors and reactions are, as you stated, FD.

I'm still trying to gain a sense of her father's mental health as he is very influential with his D and I do see some narcissistic qualities.  He must have mentioned the fact that my son submitted his own petition 5 times.  It really irked him.  It's been interesting to observe the fact that they take no responsibility for any of the problems.  Her father seems to see himself as the reasonable one, always trying to "teach his D how to handle a separated family".  His memory is selective and he has forgotten his threats of calling the police, making demands, etc.  He feels I betrayed him.   His own history is a little complex.  Though he gained custody of his D (ex-wife went to jail for abuse), his second marriage resulted in divorce and he only saw his son every other weekend and one day during the week.  His son recently moved w/his mother out of state.  Not sure of the details w/that situation.  He and my son's ex have suffered some loss recently.

His D said she wants no more contact with me (though she sent several texts after saying goodbye) and that she did the right thing by not bringing up any of my son's bad behavior and we didn't.  I agree that these interactions sound like extinction bursts and I'm grateful you brought that to my attention, LnL.

I think it was the right move to follow Bill Eddy's advice and give them some warning about the upcoming papers (in our case, anyway).  While it didn't prevent the backlash, they had a few days to process the fact that there would be a petition before reading all of the reasons that supported the petition.  I think it's good advice.  In receiving the news about the petition and reading the petition, the baby was with us.  I think that was a good thing too.   

Thanks to all of you who have offered sound advice, support, feedback and have followed our situation.  You all are AMAZING.  I have very few regrets, if any, about how we handled the initiation of court proceedings because of this wonderful community.  xoxo

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