BPDFamily.com

Well... . we've done several things out in town as a family.  They all went fine.  School graduations/advancements and that kind of thing.  So far we are sticking to the admonition to "not talk about the case".  We also aren't bringing up anything controversial... just being together.  That's been nice.


Family T wants me to spend time with each kid.  Don't try to force anything... . let the talk about what they want.  I emailed out DSS person to confirm that this is ok and it appears that I'm good to go to go out individually and do things.  I sent a follow up confirmation email to DSS and I'm waiting on a response.  Then I will try to coordinate some stuff with uBPDw.

Speaking of doing things with uBPDw.  We ended up grabbing a quick bite of dinner together.  After S13 got advanced from 8th grade... . it was uBPDw and I and our son at the ceremony.  We took him to another school building for a school dance.  We took some pictures and then walked out and left him at dance.  At this point he needed to be picked up from dance in about an hour.  I suggested we run up the road grab a bite and talk through where kids were at on things. 

This was first time we had been alone together since the spanking incident.  It went fine.  I tried to be on guard... . but not be nervous.  We discussed several things about different kids... . nothing controversial.  Went back to dance, more pictures.  Walked out with s13.  I said goodbye and we drove off separately.

Today they had to bring me a replacement vehicle as the one I have been driving died and had to be towed.  It's now fixed... . and at some point tonight or tomorrow... . I plan on venting that entire story out.  I think I'd be too upset to do it now... if I started to write it all out.

Anyway... . DSS just got back to me.  I'm totally cleared for one on one time out in town.

Which brings up that I need to think about what to say if they start asking lots of questions.  I should probably focus on making sure I have the questions correct... . and answer them later.

uBPDw asked what I was doing Sunday afternoon.  I had been wondering how Father's day would be handled.  The basic plan is that we will walk to a local pizza place after church. 

This coming Thursday is our first MC since I made the DSS report.  If you remember... . I made the report after she refused to put in writing that corp punishment is off the table.  Then we delayed MC due to conflict with school events.  So... I'm going to need advice on how to handle myself there.  I would like to keep progress going... . there are so many issues built up... . and who knows what she will want to talk about.

OK... . BPD specific things I have noticed.

Several times at out in town things... . usually when we first got together or I first saw her... . her face looked strained... . not rage... . but like you would ask someone is things are ok.  After a few minutes together I wouldn't see that.

I don't think I handled a dent in the van properly.  Background:  as with most BPD... . they are responsible for nothing.  The van she drives has had many dings in it... . and we recently got it in the shop and got them all fixed up.  For about a week the van looked great.  When I got in the van after eating (while s13 was at dance)... I noticed a fresh dent.  Without thinking... I asked what happened.    Well... she sounded cross and said "at least it looked good for a week". 

Then she said something about d17 "showing mommy" how to drive around a brick wall without hitting it.

Her face looked a little tight... . some sighing.  I just rode in silence. 

At some point the "functional" part of me asked if the door operated ok still.  She said it did. 

Lots of history here... . about her driving habits... . accountability.  I was an instructor pilot for a long time... . so teaching proper, safe operation of machinery... is a big deal to me. 

I have told her... . and told her and kids together that events were fun or that I had a good time.

I've not said anything "relational" to her... . like "miss you" or "love you"... or any of that.  My thinking is that would create pressure for her to respond... . and our family T doesn't want that... . at this point.

Probably enough for now... .

Thoughts?  Questions? 

Oh yeah... . DSS is in process of talking to counselors from our past...

I think it's good that you are having some positive time as a family, and I agree with your counselor that spending time listening to each kid is super-important, even though they may not open up right away.

Spending time alone with your wife at this point is risky, but it sounds like you were in a more-or-less public place and the talk was all about the kids, so the risk of her melting down was low.  Just be careful!

"... . if they start asking lots of questions" - you mean if they ask you questions in writing, like e-mail, or if they want to interview you?

Have you talked with an attorney who is experienced with DSS to find out the risks?  Is DSS where you live very biased against fathers, so they might be looking to trap you?  Or can they be trusted?  Could it lead to criminal risk?  I think you need to understand DSS's process very well before answering any questions.

I would also challenge whether you need to continue to ask their permission to do normal father things like spending time with your kids.  Do you have anything in writing that says you need DSS's permission to see your kids?  Careful not to buy into any bullying - you're the kids' father and that gives both you and them rights, and those rights can't be taken away without due process (I think).

Don't get too hung up on Father's Day.  Look for signals from the kids.  Lots of conflict between parents happens because we think there's something magic about certain days, and we get inflexible.  If they kids want to see you that day, great, or you can say "Let's have Father's Day Tuesday when you're here" - minimize the drama.

When they were younger and had no money, a big issue for my kids was the last-minute realization that they didn't get Mom anything for Mother's Day or her birthday or whatever.  That meant I had to take them somewhere to shop, and give them money, and sometimes suggest ideas too;  I basically had to buy gifts for someone who had put me in jail.

But I did it, and she did the same, because it's about the kids, and it worked out fine.  And sometimes Father's Day came on a Tuesday for us... .

MC:  Is your goal to fix the relationship, or to end it peacefully, or what?

It seems like a critical issue right now is setting your own objective.  If it's to fix the marriage, that's one thing - might take a while and might require some really frank talks with your wife and the MC about your expectations.

If your goal is to end the marriage peacefully, that will be hard too, but it will require different approaches;  for example, a lot of disengagement.

You may be in limbo right now - not sure which way you really want things to go.  Maybe still thinking the best thing would be for your wife to get diagnosed.  Is that right?

 


Yeah... . and in this case I felt a bit better about it... . because it was not planned.  Not saying she plots things... . but I could see negative things getting going in there head from over thinking... . or making stuff up.


I was thinking about if my kids start asking me questions about what is going on.



Yeah... . they are ok to deal with... . the recommendation is to make sure and follow process.  For instance, I made sure and got email saying me going out with one of my kids and nobody else was fine.  That was the recommendation of my family T... . and so I made sure to cover myself, made sure dss knows I am following directions... . etc etc

 


Technically it is a mutually agreed on safety plan.  DSS, uBPDw and I all signed.  I could have bucked up... . but that would have been much more adversarial... . and could have ended up in same situation.  Also thinking about the future... . if uBPDw bolts from counseling.  I want to make sure I can honestly prove that I have complied with all requests... . and then can say... . I wonder why Mrs Flier won't agree to stay in counseling... . hmmmm

I was thinking about if my kids start asking me questions about what is going on.

I'm sorry but I forget how old they are... . ?

Usually what you want to do is listen carefully to what they are asking, and answer it, as simply and as age-appropriate as possible.  Tell the truth but don't assume they want to know everything you are thinking about.

When I told me S(then)8 we were getting divorced, after several months of separation, you know what he asked?  "Will we take the same bus to school?"  The reason was that he didn't want it to be obvious to other kids and teachers that something had changed.  He had some shame about the divorce and didn't want anybody to know about it.  My answer was, "Yes."  There was a lot more going on - his shame, for starters - but I had time to think about how to deal with that.  At the moment, I was able to make him feel OK just by answering the bus question.

 


I'm going to say that I want to leave the door open to fixing relationship.  I need to be detached enough to make sure I understand if she is actually making progress.  I am clear in my mind that I'm not just going to shrug my shoulders and get back on the crazy train.


I think the most important thing is to honor that she is attending T and give that the best chance to take hold.




Yes... . I would love a diagnosis... . but I think an effective T relationship is more important. 

 


18, 17, 13, 11, 8, 6, 3, 1

that's a lot of numbers.

Funny story:  I met S18, S13 and D1 for dinner this evening.  They drove and met me.  I got asked if D1 is my grandbaby... .    :) *) |iiii

They got to restaurant just before me.  Several people commented to me how well the boys took care of the baby.  Nice to hear things like that... . when lots of other stuff is screwed up.

When my youngest two were little, SD was 8 and SS was 20.  And we're different races - their mom and SS are one race, I'm another, and the younger three are bi-racial.  So when we went out together we got lots of looks - a big range in ages and there's no way we could all be related by blood.  But who cares... .

It might be best to start with the older kids, and talk one-on-one with each of them, and just be completely open, except careful about characterizing their mom.  But don't hide her behaviors either;  if one of the older kids asks about something she did, tell the truth and tell how you are dealing with it.

For the middle kids, you won't want to talk about divorce or the conflict between you and their mom, but about the situation - the living arrangements and why.  "Your mom and I are having problems so we need to be apart most of the time now, til we get things figured out." - or whatever is your truth.  As simple as possible.

The three-year-old and one-year-old probably only think in terms of where you are and why you aren't where they are, and maybe not even that.  Maybe just focus on how they are doing, and the right amount of physical touch to confirm your feelings toward them are still the same.

Ha!  Similar situation here... . DH's ex is Asian, so his children are obviously bi-racial. Once DH and I married and started socializing with his adult children and the grandchild, here we were with Scot-Irish, red-haired DH and blonde Gagrl with these gorgeous Thai-American kids. Once DH and I were asked if we adopted GD5 from China, and we had to explain that, no... . She is DH's bio granddaughter, not adopted.

We have found, that over the years, we just have to discuss and respond to what comes up with the adult children and the grandchild at the level they present at any given time. They are all in different places with the uND/BPD according to their own development. The son is the GC36,  but the scapegoat D33 takes the brunt because The Dark Princess insists on access to the granddaughter.

It's absolutely exhausting to keep up and support each one in where they are with their mother on any Monday. And we just have 4adult children between us and 1 grandchild!

While I can understand you can't do anything you want right now, I also see Matt's point that you may not have to be too timid.  For example, on Father's Day are you 'limited' to seeing the children singly?  Can't you offer to see them all together?  Maybe take over a few tables in a restaurant?

It's very interesting to see the kids' reactions to their BPD parent. My SS14 will not admit yet that there is a problem. We were at SS18's graduation earlier this week and one of his good friends came that my younger SS has known for years. The friend hugged him and asked "is your mom getting better"? SS14 looked absolutely shocked that anyone else even guessed there were issues. There was so much more to that moment than DH and I could contribute. I could have kissed that kid! I did give him a big hug later. My point being, they know things, but sometimes it has to be put in perspective for them.

Can you give more details on what behaviors the ss14 was ignoring... . or not attributing to the mom?

I don't think "leaving your options open" is a good choice right now. I'd recommend you either plan on ending it OR on repairing it. You are the mentally healthy one. If you aren't committed to improving it, it is NOT going to get better.

 


I probably didn't explain or quote the "safety plan" well enough.  My impression was that it did not mention seeing the kids singly.  After the family T wanted me to start doing that... . to be on the safe side I clarified that with the DSS case worker.  uBPDw was on that email chain.

Before I had clarified that it was clear that I could do things in groups out in town.

For instance.  This morning me and several kiddos are going to McDs for breakfast... . they are running some kind of special.  Then after church we are going to go to a local pizza place... . something we can walk to from church.

Thanks for asking the questions... . pointing out issues... . it helps me think things through and stay off landmines

Interesting... . let me rephrase my thinking... . and explain why I said it that way.

I am painfully aware that the status of the r/s is not up to me... . it's up to a pwBPD.  So... in theory... . I could do the best job I could in MC, using tools etc etc... . I could get painted black and get the boot. 

So... . it's with that thinking that I sort of hedged.

 

If I am the decider... . we fix the r/s.

Even more important is that "fixing" the r/s involves me avoiding the bad patterns of the past. 

The hopeful and uncharted waters that we are in is that uBPDw has had a couple T appointments that are just about her.  She is the focus.

The T has been very clear that the sessions are not to whine about the other person... . they are to look at what the person in T needs to change... . to "take off the table" as a reason that the family r/s is having issues.

So... final attempt at rephrase.  I want to fix the r/s... . however... . I need to be prepared for some sort of acting out or attempt on her part to end it.  Being prepared is important so that my reaction is helpful... and does not further drive her away.

Thoughts?

Are you contemplating moving back home soon? Or are you thinking of getting an apartment for yourself for the immediate future? or continuing to stay with your parents? I guess I'm having trouble seeing how your family unit moves forward in a way that minimizes stress for all (ten!) family members.

What path do you see for the marriage to be healed?

What steps do you need to take, and what steps does your wife need to take?

Have you discussed this path with her, so she knows what you believe needs to be done?

There you go. Excellent summary from Matt.

(I was thinking that maybe expecting something concrete from your wife--like a commitment to one year's worth of weekly visits to the counselor she has begun seeing--might be much more productive than expecting that she will be able to simply stop certain chronic behaviors and accusations toward you, for instance.)

Excellent questions... . keep them coming.

No... I don't see myself moving back soon. 

Couple things:

1.  The DSS process needs to move forward... and right now that process has me out of the house.  DSS and Family T will be speaking this week.  I also learned that the only way DSS gives up the written reports is via court order.  The family T asked to see them and DSS said no to handing over copies of the reports.  However... . they are more than fine to discuss the contents of the reports (at length)... . with the family T so that will help him guide his T with us.

I'm a govt guy and my interpretation is that this is how the DSS people deal with the rule (no copies) and do the right thing (they know the information needs to be shared with the family T).

2.  While I would "like" to move back home... . I want to be wise about this.  We have done lots of good things out in town as a family.  Just got back from an awesome Father's Day lunch... . uBPDw was on top of her game to keep kids in line.  We really had a nice time.

Anyway... . my opinion is that if we can build up a good memory bank of good times, while at the same time doing family T, and individual T... . that will set us up for long term success.

However... . I need to discuss this with our family T... . and make sure we are following his direction. 

I'm also interested in what you guys think of this plan... . please try to poke holes in it... . bring up glaring things I've forgotten... . etc etc.

The plan for immediate future is to stay with parents.  So far seems to be good with them... . maybe I'll say more about living arrangements for me in another post.

Well... . step 1 is not necessarily to "heal" my uBPDw... . but to make sure that she is doing well in T... . and that she acknowledges that she has a part to play in healing the relationship.  I see no reason that she will not do that... or acknowledge that... . but that conversation hasn't happened yet.  It may come up Tuesday morning in MC... . we'll see.

Maybe we have a dating relationship for a while.  Maybe weekends away.  Who knows if things in house are triggering... .

So... yeah... I'd love to get back home... . that is goal... I see lots of baby steps from here to now.  And if we get stuck on one of those steps... . rather than forcing it... . most likely course of action is to wait, observe... . and discuss that a lot here and in T.



I need to make sure that PTSD is "off the table" as an issue.  Talking with individual T about that... . have had return visits with psychologist at VA. 

I also need to make sure that I am more practices with the tools.  She will get triggered... . so will I... that is not a failure... . however... . if we fall back into old pattern and a full scale dysregulation happens... not good.

I'm sure I need to fill up "my" list more... . I'll keep working on this.



No... . we have had zero relationship discussion.  Family T guy wanted me to lay off... . let him work the program some.  I will bring it up this week to see if I should "push" relationship talk or stick with parenting.

We've hugged once.  This morning I think I woke her up when I was coordinating who I would take to breakfast.    She said love you when hanging up... . but I'm pretty sure she was on "just woke up automatic mode"... .

Sometimes when doing things with kids we sit next to each other... . touching is not weird... . we seem comfortable around each other.

I think these are very good steps.

I would suggest that you keep in mind the worst of her behaviors, not because you should dwell on the worst - I think it's wise to focus on baby-steps and keeping things positive - enhancing the good stuff and each of you working on your own issues for a while before re-starting a very intimate relationship.

But keeping in mind the worst of her behaviors can remind you what will happen if you re-start the relationship without dealing with the root causes of those behaviors.  Stuff you do that might be "triggering" could be a part of the issue, but you could do that same stuff to a healthy person, and she wouldn't react the way your wife did.

So don't lose track of what needs to happen at some point - your wife needs to accept responsibility for all her behaviors and get the help she needs.

Absolutely... . I have no illusion that we will have exactly the same version of "the truth"... or what happened.

However... . it's all your fault... . ain't going to work. 

As you've noticed, I've commented before about having substantial contact with the children during this time of upheaval.  How about inviting some of the kids over for overnights with you and grandparents, perhaps taking turns a few at a time?  The longer you are away from them, the longer they're not in your care, the more likely you'll become a non-custodial (minority time) parent.

And you may say, "but her behaviors have been so bad... . ", well consider that if you don't reconcile then the agency and court may conclude, "Well, it's working so far, let's not change what works."  That is the risk.

Good point.  Maybe you can aim to have the kids with you at least half the time - and at least half the nights - before the legal process begins, if it does.  Otherwise it will be hard to get majority time, or maybe even 50/50.

 

Good idea.  I had been thinking about maybe trying to do something like that.  Now that school is out... that opens up schedules. 

That would be a natural progression of what has been going on so far.

Gradually stepping activities up.

What is the process for ending DSS's involvement in a positive way?

It seems to be to play along with them happily... .

The next big step with them is to establish a link between the Family T and the DSS caseworker.  I can see a handoff being from them to him.  With some kind of finding that there are "fears"... but no danger.

Some of this has been gleaned from talks with my L who is familiar with DSS in both counties... . and how they are different.

At this point the strategy does not involve... . "fighting" dss over anything.

That being said... . so far I'm not seeing DSS as a negative influence.  Even though some of the stuff didn't go exactly as I had hoped.  It still forced several issues.

And... . uBPDw is in uncharted waters... . going to a T.  If nothing else... . at least we are NOT repeating failed behavior patterns of the past.

My next planned DSS communication is later in the week... . after I verify that family T has been in contact.

At that point I'm going to raise the question of how we wrap this up... .

My point was not to suggest that you can single-handedly save your marriage, or to suggest that your wife couldn't single-handedly destroy it. I am aware of that.

My point was that if you aren't committed to repairing your r/s with your wife... . still with limits, to protect yourself and your children... . I don't see much chance of it working out.

The serious question for you is do you want to move back in with your wife or not? You have very real concerns and limits that would delay a move back... . or need to be dealt with first... . but what is YOUR choice--given how your wife is, not how you wish she would be, are you willing to move back in and try to make the best of it?

Or would you rather aim for a therapeutic separation as your "best case" goal? Or simply divorce and the best custody you can get?

Yes... I want to move back in with my wife... . but... .


If it turns out that this is all a sham... . that there is no real change... . then I have no interest in moving back in.  Note:  I don't think that is the case... but I think it is wise to let time "test" this... . to make sure it sticks. 

After 5 years of drama and ups and downs... . this is something new.  I want to think about this and act in a wise manner to have the best chance of long term change... . not a short term flash in the pan... . and then back to same old grind.

Plus... . I need to give myself time to keep learning... grounding myself in knowledge.



I am thinking about moving to a period of TS.  Need to discuss that with MC and the Family T... . I'm open to this.  I think this could be a good way to work on our skills... . and still have some away time so that pressure doesn't build up too much. 

Maybe we can have some successes... . and can build some good momentum.



Not really in my thinking at all.  However... . I have a general plan ready to go if in fact she files.  That would include moving quickly for a custody evaluation that includes in depth assessments.

Keep the questions/issues coming!

Also... . please comment on my use of quotes... . spacing out answers and all that.  I'm still struggling a bit with learning how to use the board... but to me... . the way I'm answering this one... seems a bit better.

Thoughts?

If you don't have a therapist-assisted period of controlled contact before moving back home, how will you be able to assess your wife's state of mind and reaction to recent events?

The therapist could also assist both of you in formulating new terms of engagement. (Like maybe some agreements about letting formflier sleep peacefully through each night. |iiii)

I fear if you jump right back in, you're possibly going to have to jump right back out, disrupting everyone's lives further. So if you are going to make one good shot, making it in a reasoned way and with the help of a professional seems the most powerful method to me.

Agreed! 

Especially the sleep part.  That did get better as I did limits... didn't egage etc etc.

Even before I knew about BPD... . I had sort of figured out that arguing back full force in middle of the night was not helpful.  Those are the incidents... I think... . that were most troublesome... . fearful... etc etc  for my kids.

However... . when this comes up I need to be careful and listen to what they have to say and not suggest what they are fearful of.

Back to the plan.  My uBPDw is not much of a plan maker... . also doesn't stick to one very good.  Me... I'm the opposite.  The "normal" for our marriage is that if something needs to happen... . I come up with it... . she agrees... . and off we go.

So... . my gut says that as long as I'm bringing this up during a time of normal... . not in dysregulation... . that she will go along with whatever I suggest.  From moving back in... . to staying away.

So... . I think it is incumbent on me to think this through with your guys help... . and the help of the family T.

I do think I need to clarify my non-negotiables.

What is a limit... . and what is a rule or guideline.


So... on the one hand... . trying to convince uBPDw of my version of what happened or what is the problem... . seems like a poor plan.

But... . some versions I should probably be strong on.

Such as corporal punishment.

Such as middle of the night rages.

Such as... . "do this or else threats"

Such as... . "you want to sleep with that woman (or variations on that)

Any comments on my list so far... . at this point... this is thinking outloud... . not publishing my well thought out list.  I need feedback. 

Whatever my list is... . how much T assisted talk do you think we should have about the events?

Well it's not good to argue about details, but the main events that happened are important.  She can't get healthy by inventing her own version of reality.

If you have or can get any tangible evidence, that would be helpful.  When the talk turns to the subject of the big events that happened - and I think it is essential that you deal with those events sooner or later - be prepared to say very clearly the main things that happened, and if she denies them, produce the evidence and see how she reacts.

It is important that she accept the truth - again, not trivial details that could easily be misremembered, but the main things.  If you allow her to go through life convincing herself of false versions of events, then she will continue to have a way to behave however she wants, and not deal with that.

I went through exactly this, unsuccessfully.  I had significant amounts of evidence as to the key events.  Our marriage counselors were reluctant to go there;  they were trying to make it all about improved communication, which may be the key for most couples.  I went along with that for a while, but insisted that we could not have a relationship based on a false version of reality, and we could not have a relationship if either of us would not take responsibility for our actions.

Our last MC got it - she perceived that my wife had BPD - and tried to help with this, but we weren't successful.  My wife was slippery - she always found some way to explain why her version of events conflicted with all the evidence, including even a detailed police report.  I finally gave up and decided I couldn't continue any longer, and went ahead with the divorce.  But with the right MC, and if both parties want to save the marriage enough, I hope you will have better results... .

So... . did she acknowledge that the police thing happened... . but just twist some details? 

For instance:  I have copies of the two checks that my wife used to move $30k.  I also can prove this was done on the same day she text bombed me about signing over the van.  I went on about my day... . I had not agreed to do the sign over because there had been no discussion.  Telling me what time to be at the DMV is NOT a discussion.  Especially when this is the status quo about vehicles for over 19 years.

So... . if she says she didn't move the money... . that's not her signature.  Then we march off to police to file forgery report... or something like that.  It's her signature... . she did it... if she denies this... . I can't deal with that.

If she admits to it... but says I agreed.  Then I won't continue in the r/s unless we write down big agreements. 

If a conversation can always be changed... . I can't do that.  Reality matters to me.

If she admits but has whacky reasons why... . I can deal with that. 

Hope that makes sense.  Any reaction to my thinking so far?

Yeah, this makes sense to me. I think you are on a journey of discovery to learn about your wife's reality.

(I may be projecting my own family issues onto yours, but my money says she is not just abusing you cruelly for sport or some type of personal gain, but that she really does not trust you and thinks you are indeed up to bad--and kind of preposterous--things in secret.)

Very interesting way to put it.

I for one am convinced that my wife believed - and maybe still believes - at least some of the things she said.

She used to say, "I know there's something going on between you and such-and-such."  Every woman I ever worked with, every one of her friends, all my friends' wives, and even my sister-in-law - at one point or another she accused me of doing something wrong with all of them, and she always used those words:  "I know... . ".

I'm pretty sure she actually did "know" it - every single time.  It wasn't true - not once - but I believe if she had taken a lie-detector test - even if there was a perfect one - she probably would have passed them all.

This was her reality.  I think she felt something - probably fear of abandonment - and concluded that something must be causing that fear - someone must be planning to abandon her.  Must be me.

My point is - and I suspect most of us here could say the same thing - this isn't a matter of someone "lying".  In our divorce, I made sure to never accuse her of "lying", but pointed out that she made dozens of false statements under oath.

That may be what you're dealing with, related to the transfers of money and other issues.  She may more-or-less believe every word she is saying, and it may be difficult to break through that.

I think questions like "Is it real change or a just a sham" aren't a helpful way for you to look at it, however true that concern is.

First, even "real change" is a up and down, two steps forward, one step back process.

Second, that is just too vague to be a useful guideline for you.

Third, requiring "change" from your partner is a losing operation.


Yes, indeed!


To my mind, rules are just a bad idea to implement... . and "guidelines" are just wussier rules, I think.

True limits are back where you started--your non-negotiables!

It is good to notice the things you "want" from your wife... . but right now, I'd pay attention to the hard limits.


Yes, those all sound like good choices.

I'd just come up with a plan of how you will deal with each of them. The first one requires outside support, or at least contingencies of it.

The others are ones that you can simply refuse to engage on, or go away to protect yourself. Simple boundary enforcement. (No, I didn't say EASY, just simple!)

Responses like: (want to sleep with ... . ) "I refuse to argue about what you believe I'm thinking"

Or like "I won't negotiate with you when you are making threats." (do this or else)

I'd work out how you deal with those on your own... . not involving either T. Also, no need to notify your wife that you are placing these limits--an unnecessary challenge to h er. Just enforce them. If you are very lucky, at least some of them will never happen again!

You may want to bring some of these things up in T... . but I would recommend instead bringing up areas where you actually need her willing cooperation with the T instead. A third party will be more helpful in negotiation.

The give-up-on-your-marriage limits will probably include worse behavior... . things like false accusations of DV, actual physical abuse of you... . things you cannot find ways to protect yourself from while staying with her.

Think about what lines you would draw about moving money out of the joint account. And also what you want to negotiate for regarding her move of $30k. You might start with an honest desire to understand what she was concerned about/afraid of that motivated her in the first place--if you can swing it--accusations are invalidating, and so is telling her that the history she believes is wrong. (Yes, truth is invalidating in many cases. Not a reason to ignore or let it go... . just a reason to think about whether you need to address that truth and when.)



|iiii Yes, you are doing great with the bbcodes :) FYI, a trick... . if somebody does something you want to figure out how they did it, quote a reply and you will see all the code directly. (No need to post it... . just look at it)

Grey Kitty, I don't understand your statement that "requiring change from your partner is a losing proposition."

Isn't that what this is all about - figuring out what changes both parties need to make, so the relationship can work?

Would you suggest that someone go back into a relationship that has been toxic - accusations etc. - if there isn't a commitment to change, and some clear steps along that path?

(Or am I misunderstanding... . ?)

"figuring out what changes both parties need to make, so the relationship can work" is a good model for two equally healthy individuals. Not quite the situation when one party suffers from BPD.

However I wouldn't suggest that people go back into something toxic... . unless something had changed that made them feel safe now. (Either because the other party is now behaving differently or because they have identified ways to protect themselves better.)

What I meant was that telling somebody that you need them to change (especially when they have mental illness) is often a losing proposition. Especially if it is a general or vague statement about what changes they need to make.

Identifying specific behaviors you need/want changed, and asking for that has a better chance to work.

Best by far is identifying changes that you can make on your own. And if you do change yourself, I believe you are more likely to see changes in your partner than if you simply ask your partner to change.

I see - thanks - I didn't understand that.

My own take on it - but this is coming from someone who has only been through this once, so I only learned what did and didn't work in my case - is that you can't have a healthy relationship with someone who has BPD, unless she has been diagnosed and is in treatment, and pretty far down that path, and really committed to it.  That's the only way I think you can be really safe from more accusations and other destructive behavior, in my view.

So... . "requiring change from your partner" to me sounds like what you want to do, but not as an expectation or as a request, or even as a promise or a negotiated agreement, but only as a medical diagnosis, a "prescription" - that is, a doctor prescribing a course of treatment - and enough progress in that course to convince you that change is really, really happening.

(Just a discussion which I hope will be helpful to Formflier and others - some semantics here, maybe more than a real disagreement.)

 

In my situation... . what I think will be "real change" is  continued work with Family T.  And some sort of ownership in that process that there are "things" that uBPDw needs to work on (change).

A dramatic example is how discipline is handled.  I run the risk in this example of her saying DSS said it is fine... . or not illegal or something like that.  But the basic thought that one parent can carry out discipline (or carry on with any activity) while the other partner is clearly distressed and wishes to talk... . is a non-starter for me... . and if she changes that... . it would indicate "real change".

I also think that now that this is out in the family... . everyone in family T... . so things can be discussed openly... . that real change will be obvious for both of us.  And... . if we get to the point of daddy making changes and mommy is not... . I need to be strong enough to keep shining the light on that... . and not enabling.

I also should have no expectation that the change will be equal, or fair... . etc etc.  If that were the case I think that would set me up for a big disappointment.

I am a bit reluctant to pin my hopes/actions on a diagnosis.  There seems to be a wide variety of thought in the T world about how to label this.  I have not had a specific conversation with the family T about this... . but I get the vibe that he is more about behaviors than labels... if I had to guess one way or another.

I totally agree that pwBPD that is not committed to getting better... or that thinks they are "fine"... . is not going to be able to have a r/s with much quality of life in it for the other person.

I could see that as the non gets better at tools... . the "existence" could get better... . but anything resembling a real r/s is going to be hard to come by.

As time passes, and you begin to consolidate your new understanding of your wife (and here I'm assuming that you come to understand that she has a major mental illness), your perceptions of everything will be changing. I think you will want to allow this process and this time, if you are "staying."

Re-reading GreyKitty's above posts a few times is on my agenda for today. I think it is a terrific best-practices summary of living with a mentally ill family member. (The "waverider" posts on this forum are also excellent guides. Like little zen koans that are absorbed slowly.)

I have one quick reaction to a post of yours from a few days ago. And it's maybe a "stale" post already, in the sense that you have already received feedback on it. In that particular post, you stated that you might not worry about family finances at this time, as other issues were more pressing. A better approach, I think, will be to face all important family matters at this time of therapeutic separation. Having the family on firm, understandable financial ground is the right thing to do and will make everyone feel better . . . probably sooner rather than later.

All of these things are super tough, but it could be that each change you make will potentiate the others, in a positive way.

Our MC told me, one-on-one, that she believed my wife had BPD, but that she did not want me to mention that to my wife or anybody else.  She urged me to read "Stop Walking On Eggshells" (which brought me here) and other stuff, so I could become skilled at dealing with someone who has BPD.

She believed that the label would make it more difficult for her to help my wife;  if the label was out in the open, my wife would be likely to quit working with her, or me, and nothing would get better.  She said therapists find it very difficult to work with people who have been diagnosed with BPD, because they often turn on the therapist, make accusations against the therapist, file complaints with the therapist's boss, etc.  She said a joke among therapists is, "Well it's almost three o'clock - time to be attacked by my BPD patient!".  Many therapists won't take on a patient who has been diagnosed with BPD, because they think it will be a big hassle and nothing will be accomplished - they just don't want such a person in their lives.

But without a formal diagnosis - which there wasn't at that time - she hoped she could work with us together, and one-on-one with my wife, to nudge her slowly, with some DBT-lite (dialectical behavior therapy) - again, not naming the therapy, just talking casually with her, using DBTish methods, and over time maybe she could help her.

I appreciated this approach and I'm convinced the therapist really wanted to help.  But after several months there was no sign she had accomplished anything, and I couldn't continue in that mode - our family home was losing value fast because of the real estate market, I was paying for everything, and my wife was making it clear that she had no intention of taking responsibility for her actions or committing to real change.  I viewed the therapist's approach as well-intended but futile;  I saw us all continuing to walk on eggshells rather than telling the truth about the situation, getting an objective diagnosis, and dealing with reality.

We finally got the diagnosis through the Custody Evaluator, but by that time the purpose wasn't to heal the marriage, it was to decide custody.  Still, the CE recommended psychotherapy, and my wife "agreed" to that, and it was written into the court order and issued by the court.  I don't think she ever complied with that, or took any other steps to get better.

My conclusion - in my wife's case - was that she was simply unwilling or not capable of accepting that she had a problem and needed help, so she will probably never accept the treatment she needs to get help.

So you could say the "no-diagnosis" approach didn't work, and the "get a diagnosis" approach didn't work either.  But I found other advantages to getting the diagnosis:  it helped me to understand, objectively, what the real situation is, and it helped with the custody case.

I can't say which of these outcomes would be the same in any other case.  I came out of it convinced that understanding and accepting objective reality is important, and that the diagnosis of a personality disorder like BPD is much more objective than I had realized.  I would urge anybody experiencing behavior which suggests BPD to try to get MMPIs for both parents, because that is how you understand objectively what is going on, and if you don't understand it you can't deal with it.  But I realize this is based on just one case I'm intimately familiar with, and there might be others who find good outcomes by a different approach.

I came out of it with the belief that the diagnosis and treatment of personality disorders is much more similar to other medical problems than we realize.  We accept without question that if you have diabetes or cancer, the first thing is to get whatever tests are needed to confirm the diagnosis, and then the doctor prescribes the course of treatment most likely to work, based on research, and you're kind of nuts to not follow that course of treatment so you will get better, or to insist that another family member diagnosed with diabetes or cancer follow the recommended course of treatment.

But somehow we - and I include in "we" many "therapists" - cling to old and ineffective methods which were used before psychological disorders were understood as well as they are now, or ad hoc methods they hope might work but which have not been shown to be effective.  I'm not an expert, but there is research showing that DBT is effective once someone has been diagnosed with BPD, and I am not aware of any research showing that BPD can be treated effectively without first being diagnosed.

I don't think walking on eggshells works.

So... . here is an odd way that I think about this sometime.

I have "proven" over the years... . that I can make a lot of $$... manage it properly and all that.  So... . luckily... long term... . I'm not that concerned about $$.  I think chances of us being on the street or not being able to eat are very low.

Fixing finances will be... most likely... . very time consuming.  That is a bit limited now... . and if I got to choose time with kids or work on my job... . or... just about anything else... . I think I would pick that.

The record is pretty clear (at least to any nons)... . that uBPDw has grabbed control... . and is wrecking things pretty badly.

If I step in before the crash is over... it muddies the waters... . I could get in on the "blame". 

And... . if she actually makes things better... . and I didn't lift a finger... . I'm cool with that too.

I realize that she may never (or she may) acknowledge her part in this... . but there are some financial ties to her family (through properties)... . that are being messed up as well.  They understand that I am the one that has had a major behavior change... . and I think most understand that it is reaction to uBPDw behavior. 

Not really making my point very well here... .

Let me try again... . I'm fine with it costing me a lot of $$... . if the "blame" doesn't fall on me.

Things have come up... . and when I refer them to my wife as the person "making financial decisions" for the family... . you can kinda see the What the heck? in their face... . any follow up to that I refer them to her for an explanation as to why.

I think I will quit writing on this for a bit... . but I do welcome peoples opinions and suggestions on this.  I'm also sure I'm not looking at... . dealing with finances properly... . and I'll be honest... . right now I don't care.

As opposed right now I care about safety for kids, corporal punishment... etc etc

 

Good stuff Matt,

I will bring up MMPI with family T tomorrow.

Also will also ask the question about formal diagnosis.

My introduction to the family T (if you remember the ambush thing)... . put me off a bit... . but I really like the guy.  PHD... . in his early 70s.  Talking about 1 or 2 more years before retiring. 

His comment about BPD was that if it was true he would be come "the hated one"... . but that was fine by him.  So... . I did't get any fear of BPD from him.

He told uBPDw and I that he doesn't like to beat around the bush... . and he hasn't with me.  Not sure how he has been with wife. 

My gut says he has realized that I am being truthful about no affairs.  We went into great detail about what I have and hadn't done... . before and after I met uBPDw.  He then followed up with questions about any knowledge of molestation, abuse or other such things in uBPDw early life. 

Other than being raised by a mom with strong BPDish traits... . I don't know of anything specific.

Wow, you are doing great. |iiii You have plugged so many holes in such a short time. This therapist sounds great to me too (but that's probably because I'm old like him). Someone will have to be the bad guy for the time being, and it sounds as though he's up to it.

Do you have any idea yet what the family role of your older teenage kids will be in the next year or two? Will they be leaving pretty soon to launch their own separate lives, or will they likely live at home for a few more years? Either way, it seems that the family dynamic will be changing in quite a few ways . . . .

This might be a red flag.  Maybe I'm generalizing - not saying someone that age can't do a great job.

But my understanding is that someone who went to school, and was mentored, and developed his therapeutic method, more than 40 years ago, before personality disorders were understood very well, may still be using old methods that were not (if I understand correctly) very effective.

Someone who has come of age professionally in the last 20 years or so would have the benefit of learning based on newer, better ways of looking at these issues and more effective treatment methods.

One is already at college but is home for the summer.

Next one is 2 years away from leaving for college.

Next one down will be in high school next year... .

and on it goes.

|iiii

That is a point we have made here before.  Let your lawyer be your buffer from the emotional pressuring, defer to or 'blame' the lawyer or the court (or T) to stbEx when the other tries to guilt you into weakening your boundaries and terms, in other words, let the lawyer or court (or T) be the tough guy.  After all, that's partly what they're paid for.

By the way, even if there is some level of reconciliation, however temporary or not, it would be very wise to be the one sure of birth control.  No more, "Guess what!" or "Oops, I forgot."  The last thing you need is more (and younger) children in a troubled and likely ending relationship.  The sad truth is that, despite how wonderful children are, having children does not fix a dysfunctional relationship, it just makes it more complicated, especially when unwinding the relationship.

Yeah... . I had thought about that... . and need to specifically ask him about DBT... if he does that... . his thoughts.

Etc etc.

It may turn out that he is good on "family dynamics"... . but may be short on DBT skills. 

On the web he does not list BPD as something he treats or "personality disorders".  He does boost himself up for "family systems".

He lists CBT but not DBT.

When wife first gave me his name... . this was one of the reasons I wanted to discuss with her... and maybe find another "family t"... . because if I could get a guy with DBT experience... . and PD experience... it might be likely to have an easier transition to DBT... . if needed.

|iiii

Yeah... . especially given my track record... .     lol

And... I will tell everyone straight up I am a coward when it comes to medical procedures... . so... chances of something sharp coming near my b@ll$ is about zero.

No idea how much you guys appreciate the naval aviator stories... . but here goes... . and explains some of my fears about sharp objects.

So... . one of my buds finally decided to get it done... . and get cut.  The doc is in the middle of things... is saying how it should hurt and all that... . and apparently has to tug on something down there.  The doc tugs... . my buddy feels a twinge... . and his arm flopped around... . like a reflex.

The ready room was bursting with laughter... . because of the story... . and because I'm sure I looked like I was going to pass out.  They all know my issues... . and were imagining what would happen when I finally went under the knife... .

Maybe you can achieve some "boundary" understandings first with this therapist and then transition to "therapeutic" services later with a different practitioner.

(For an amusing look at an astute seventy-something professional dealing with individuals with personality disorders, tune in on almost any day to Judge Judy's smalls claims TV court.)

At the big picture level... . here is where I *think* you are right now, FF:

Cautiously wanting to move back into the house with your wife and children.

Willing to work on your side of improving the r/s with your wife.

Willing to live at "peace" with your wife for the benefit of your children, even if it is not a good, intimate marriage.

Working out your limits which would push you to end the marriage and fight for custody.

Examining but not pulling the trigger on legal options against your wife.

Is this an accurate summary? (I suspect I may be putting a few words here in your mouth, based on my own biases)

Note: I left out any mentions of what you want/expect/hope your wife to do--you have no control over that--These are all choices/positions within your own realm of control.

I had a vasectomy.  It was very painful but it worked.  Before that, my wife had lied to me about birth control, and we had a baby.  She believed I would marry her I she got pregnant, and she was right.  Then she did it again.  Two great kids who I love very much.

Many here have similar experiences.  Women with BPD often use pregnancy to get or keep control.

My concern about T70 is not just whether he uses or is even aware of DBT.

It's whether he believes in using objective, proven methods to diagnose psychological disorders.  If not, I don't think you can expect good results.

First reaction is that you are right on target.  I'll try to spend some time on this later and see if I can sweeten this up.

Yeah... . I can see that... . from reading on this board... . and from thinking back in my life.

People would always ask me when we were going to quit... . and I would say that is up to my wife.

On the one hand she stayed healthy and the docs cleared her to continue. 

On the other... . she is SAHM... . so she is one choosing workload and to work it out.  I was gone a lot so I was in a support role... . from a distance a lot of time.

I'm pretty sure I remember some of the times that she got pregnant... . I was always willing... . but she wanted to get pregnant... .

Yeah... those thoughts have been weighing on my mind a lot. 

B

Being a parent is hard work and takes lots of time.  I have four, but only two at home.  (The four span 20 years in age.)

If there are two parents, both mentally and physically healthy, and one works outside the home, so the other does more of the parenting, that can work very well.

But if the stay-at-home parent isn't mentally healthy, the risks for the kids get much higher.  Kids raised primarily by a parent who has BPD, but isn't in treatment, are at much, much higher risk for depression, substance abuse, etc. - basically everything that can go wrong is much more likely.

You can read about this in "Understanding The Borderline Mother".  It's super-detailed and well-researched.  I found it very depressing, because it reflects so well what my stepson went through - he could basically represent the risks - psychological abuse when he was little, plus just a little physical and sexual abuse, leading to drinking by 12, drugs in high school, and then prison.  How that happens is a long story, but it happens pretty often when kids are left in the care of someone whose thinking is twisted.

So... . you have your work cut out for you.  Even if you wife were diagnosed now, and treated effectively, it's likely that one or more of your kids have already been impacted in ways that may not be obvious til later.  You'll need to learn a lot and be a big part of all their lives to reduce the risks.

My older stepdaughter is doing well but I believe she was impacted negatively in more subtle ways.  D17 and S16 are doing well too, but it's work to help them work through many issues that they deal with resulting from their mom's psychological problems - BPD and others.  So I'm not saying it can't be done - I believe kids are resilient and can do well if one parent has BPD or another psychological disorder - but it puts a big burden on the healthier parent, to work on ourselves and make sure we stay healthy, and to learn how to help kids who are dealing with a parent who has a big problem.

Yep... . this is weighing on me very heavily.  And honestly... . is most of my motivation to help change the situation.

If the kids see mom getting help... . and dad is open about getting help for his issues... . then... . when issues come up for the kids... . hopefully they will see it as OK and normal to get help.

This is exactly my experience.

I just said D17 is doing very well, but she does experience a lot of stress - being around her mother is incredibly stressful, as I fully realized only when we separated, and I found I could breathe again.

Recently D17 told me she thinks she would benefit from counseling.  There's nothing "wrong" with her - she doesn't need to be "fixed" - but she thinks having someone she could talk with every other week would be helpful, and I think she's probably right.  So I helped her find someone and she'll start that next week.

Both my younger kids have seen a counselor before, and SS35 has had the benefit of a year in rehab, which basically 24/7 therapy, and it has helped him immensely.  And I saw a counselor for years, and talked about openly with the kids, which I think may have helped them to see it as a sensible thing to do when you're stressed.

The irony is that the person most in need of therapy - and who has been ordered by the court to get it - is the one person who refuses to see someone.  Oh well.

Any idea if you forced that issue in court... . if it would work or happen... . at least to get her in the door

 

Also... in my case... .

I don't think visits would be "stressful"... . if uBPDw and I broke up... . but I still don't think healthy.  Or more accurately stress would be different from what I think you are writing about.

My SIL (BPD traits) and uBPDw have fallen into the camp of being a "buddy" to the kids.  Let kids make all the decisions... . etc etc.

Then... . on the off chance when they (adults) want to make a decision... . all are shocked when kids buck up

That kind of situation is stressful for kids as well because they don't have a consistent way of relating to their adults. The kids don't know what is coming next -- if the adults decide that the adults are suddenly in charge or not. It is stressful because of the confusion as the adults are inconsistent.

I have tried... unsuccessfully... . to make that point several times... .   :)  about exactly the way you said it...

What would happen is I would be perceived as a troublemaker;  the court might order her (again) to get therapy;  I might have to pay for it;  my wife might actually go, and sit behind closed doors with somebody she picks, and lie to her for an hour at my expense.  And nothing would be accomplished.

The real issue is, does an individual accept that she has a problem and get the help she needs, or not?  If the answer to that is no, you're wasting your time.

An analogy which might help is if you have an alcoholic or addict in your family.  In most cases, family members would vote unanimously that he should get help.  We could even demand that he go to AA, therapy, or whatever, and the addict might pretend to go along with it.  But til he accepts that he has a problem - and that may not happen even when there is ample evidence that he does - he will continue to drink or whatever.

Same thing for someone with a personality disorder.  We are asking them to accept that there is something fundamentally wrong with their personality - which means with who they are.  They need to accept that, and commit to working hard to change it, or nothing will get better.  And no court can force someone to do that;  courts can impose consequences, but they're reluctant to do that.  They absolutely cannot make someone accept that she has a problem and needs help.

 

MC went OK today... . while not as great as I hoped... . I think some steps were taken.  Running short on time.

Family T guy is later this afternoon. 

I'll try to get a good update later this evening... . and then we can start working through that.

I appreciate all you guys and gals... . has been incredibly helpful.

|iiii

 

MC and family t appointments went well.

We continue into the uncharted waters of where in past counseling she has bolted.

MC clearly said to her today that she needed individual therapy.

uBPDw claimed to "not care" if she "had something"... . as in a mental illness or diagnosis.  Then she tried to run through the litany of people that have told her she if just fine... . or that didn't tell her she needed individual work.

She "misremembered" many of those conversations with prior Ts and that point was discussed. 

She was trying to say that she was doing the individual T work with family guy "to be nice" to me... . or "fair"... .

This exchange was not argumentative... . no hint of dysregulation or all of that... .

In the end... . what she heard and acknowledged was that the MC was saying that individual T was a really good idea and was the MC recommendation.  That figuring out if "something" was going on with her... . anxiety, depression... . etc etc would be a good thing so it could be treated. 

Talk about diagnosis was had... . for her and for me... . and there was discussion about diagnosing issues... . and "ruling out" things.

So... . it wasn't a strong reaction from her (uBPDw) that I was hoping for... . acknowledgement that she may have a problem... . or does... . she committed to continuing it... . the individual work.

More later... .

Please let me know thoughts and questions.

What about... .

"I am concerned that there could be some issues that will keep us from having a better relationship, so I think we should look for some objective means of diagnosis.

"I've read about the MMPI-2 and I think that might be good information.

"Why don't we both take that and see where it leads?".

It would be interesting to hear both your wife's and the therapist's responses... .

Another take on it could be... .

"I remember that you did X, and Y, and Z.  I'm not pointing fingers or trying to make you feel bad about it, but those things happened, and I think there is something causing those kinds of behaviors.

"Why don't we both go for some testing that might identify whatever problems there might be, so that we can understand them and get whatever treatment is needed?"

A bit pressed for time... . more later.

But... . yes... . the black vs white versions of events was talked about.  MC referred to "lots of missing pieces"... . Individual T can fill those in... . MC made point that those need to be filled in.

I am trying to assume a non-adversarial role... . so I will not let alternate reality versions go by unchallenged... . but not trying to use past events to "push" for tests and such.

More of a baby steps approach.

I wish we had spent more time on MMPI... . or any time... we just didn't get to it.

Same with my discussion with family t guy.  Very productive but we didn't get to that.

I'm not dropping that... . but it's still on the list to even discuss.

Just a reminder... . When will you have the discussion that nothing major has been shown to give basis to your recently reduced contact with the children and therefore you should be more involved in the children's lives and not just a 'visitor' with 'visitation'.  The longer this takes, the harder it will be to get back to where you were before with parenting.

Which department handles this or is it a consensus?  A "wait and see" attitude puts you at a time disadvantage.

I agree with ForeverDad--time out of the house is a bad precedent, and not something to accept.

It is an action by DSS; It was done before DSS even talked to either the Family T or MC. It is something to address with DSS.  Probably address it agressively with DSS; the "wait and see" version with you is going on for too long... . talk to your lawyer about it, perhaps?

I think strategy/tactics with MC and family T should not be the same as with DSS.

In that situation, it sounds like the various T are starting to get your wife's number. You don't need to push them to see it. There isn't an upside to being the "bad guy" in your wife's eyes in that context.

I suspect that your pushing the T's for MMPI-2 evaluations won't help reconciling with your wife or making therapy more effective. If your lawyer thinks it will help your case with DSS, that would be a better reason to do it.

Good point.

If your wife wants to make the relationship work, she should cooperate 100% with your choice to see the kids at least half the time.  If she blocks that, without a good reason, that will show you her true intentions.

 

Oh yeah... . forgot to mention family situation.

There have been no restrictions on me doing things with kids individually and as a group.

Anytime I have asked uBPDw... she has agreed. 

We talked about it in MC and all agreed that I get what i ask for.

There was some talk in MC about me not hurrying back to house (whever DSS clears) to restart the relationship.  I initiated that talk.  I want to maintain a clear head about all of this... . and protect myself easier.

Trying to take long view here... . rather than a short term "victory".

Family T does not want me to hurry to restart in the house relationship either.

He wants me to establish my own r/s with each child without uBPDw around to filter.

More later... . keep pushing me!

Here's the reasoning... .

* It probably isn't possible to have a healthy relationship with someone who has a personality disorder and is not getting the treatment she needs.

* There is good reason, based on her patterns of behavior, to believe that she may have a PD and/or some other psychological disorder(s).  Extreme, destructive behaviors, like false accusations, don't happen because somebody had a bad day.  They indicate problems.

* PDs and other psych disorders don't fix themselves.  If they are not treated the destructive behaviors tend to get worse;  if making small accusations doesn't relieve her bad feelings, she is likely to make more serious accusations, and the impact on the other party in the relationship, and on the kids, could be very serious and not easily undone.

* So the path to a healthy relationship and a healthy family probably requires a diagnosis and treatment.

* And an accurate, complete diagnosis - it's probably 50/50 there may be more than one disorder - isn't likely without an objective psych eval.  Maybe there are psychologists out there who are consistently able to diagnose multiple problems without testing but I've never heard of that happening.

How hard to push... . how fast or slow to take the process... . I can't say.  For me it took nearly a year, with two different MCs, to get to the point that it was clear my wife had a serious problem but was not going to accept treatment.  Maybe if I had pushed harder it would have worked out better, or maybe if I had pushed less it would have gone better - who knows.  I'm fairly certain that nothing would have worked but I can't say what might work for someone else... .

So is there a practical way to have all the kids with you at least half the time - at least half the nights - at least half the non-school waking hours?

Those metrics can be important, if the marriage ends.  I was able to show a carefully kept spreadsheet - which hours each kid was with me - how many nights at each home - how many "non-school waking hours" - so when my wife said "I have been their primary parent" I could show that wasn't true.  Without that, she would have been presumed to be the primary parent, and it would have been harder for me to get primary custody or 50/50.

 

It has been a little weird to drop kids off at "my" house and drive away... .

But... . I'm working through it.

Possible... . but not practical.

My #1 goal right now is to take PTSD and my kids "fear"... . off the table.  Current tactic for that is unfiltered 1 on 1 time.

So... running the numbers game on that... . is tough. 

I do see the point though.

Even from the point of view of preparing for a divorce... . I think my number 1 priority is to objectively and subjectively make sure that PTSD and fear are off the table.

This developed with input from T and L... .

Not saying the other issues aren't important... but... . when setting priorities.

That makes sense.

I think a judge, a year or two from now, is likely to say, "There may have been an issue with that, but Mr. Flier has done what he could and it seems to have worked very well, so I don't see that as a factor now."

And I suspect too to avoid a resumption of conflict once you're back and the doors are closed, things risk going back to the prior 'normal'.


This makes sense, get any potential negatives resolved promptly.  Likely your case is not going to be similar to (read: as bad as) those we often deal with here.  You've got multiple professionals involved, you're on your home turf, so to speak, two counties involved probably trying not to mishandle anything and you're in a responsible position.

Even if you can't have all the kids over regularly during the summer, have frequent overnights with rotating groups of them.  I'm sure your parents would like that, too often during high conflict the in-laws find themselves on the periphery wistfully looking in from a distance.

Yep... . the overnight stay has not been done yet.  Thinking about trying to set one up for this weekend.  Just need to figure out logistics of who is doing what... and what makes most sense to do.

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