BPDFamily.com

Regarding our failed or failing BPD relationships with our ex's:

How do you distinguish the difference in what is BPD behavior/acts and what are intentional harmful or selfish acts committed on us by either a good or bad person who has BPD?

Do they only get credit for the good they do to us but the bad is given a free pass because of having the disorder they cant help anything? Why are they not in control of themselves when they do good to us?

I have determined after reading members stories on this website that 50% of the members say pwBPD can't help anything they do. 35% say they can help a lot but choose not to, including refusing to get mental help from professionals. 15% Classify them as horrible parasites.

Let's take cheating for an example:

Scenario: Our BPD ex has cheated on us with a dozen people behind our back or even has flaunted it in our face. They have no control of keeping their clothes on and not engaging in a relationship with the mailman or the pizza guy or the neighbor or our best friend because they have this disorder? It seems to me ridiculous when I hear people say they couldnt help they slept with all of them because they have no choice and no control at all.

I have not seen evidence that pwBPD are on autopilot mode and can not control themselves enough not to cheat, lie, steal and abuse with no choice. It seems like they more accurately have a high tendency to act out or even being more fair a super high tendency to do this.

I welcome any and all opinions. Thx.

I draw the line at what I consider acceptable behavior.  Sure, she was unfaithful, which is actually a funny word in the context of BPD, but the real dealbreaker was she lied about.  What I wanted most from her was a real friendship, and a real friendship is based on trust and respect; I got the opposite in spades.  The diagnosis didn't matter to me, beyond labeling it something and connecting with you guys, but the behavior was the dealbreaker.

Ive read so many articles and opinions that vary drastically. Some feel the borderline is pure evil and in control of what they do and say and its all premeditated behavior. Others build in the excuses for the borderline making it seem that they do not have a lot of say in what they do. and still others seem to be somewhere in the middle. Whats your opinions?

I remember one borderline I dated. i was with roommates in a cafe and she ended up coming over to our place while there she started reading a book about abusive relationships I'm front of us and she ended up moving in to get away from her "abuser" me and my friend helped move her stuff out of her exs place while he was fixing her car.  She was going to go talk to him and she said if he got abusive to go upstairs and save her.  Me and my friend heard the conversation and it turns out he wAs concerned because she had gotten back in to heroine.

We realized she was playing us big time. She was moving to this other city and I said I would drive up their with her.  She told all my friends we were moving in together up their to start our new life.  I didn't go she was pretty hot and her big plan for us would be she would be a porn actress and I could be a stay at home bf. I guess that was her former profession.

She totally knew what she was doing. But she was out of control. It is a spectrum.

Does it really matter if was the Disorder or the "bad" in our exes that caused them to punish or act without responsibility.  Because, the real question I need to examine is why I accepted and engaged in behavior that was not consistent with my values.  

I was too much in the FOG to step away, and as things slowly started to erode, I was too lost to even understand that it was abuse and it was emotional cheating and it was toxic.  

It's kind of irrelevant what they did or did not know.  I should have had boundaries.  I should have had standards.  I should had enough self respect and esteem to say no more years before it all blew up.   I enabled bad behavior.  Whether they knew or not, it comes down to evaluation of my responses.  

But, to answer your questions, it's like the three year old who steals a cookie or has a tantrum and screams I hate you.  He may know that it's not the right thing to do, but does he have a choice?   But our exes weren't three anymore, just emotionally.  My ex was simply hardwired differently.  I know that she just couldn't see thing that happen in the same reality.  She is disordered.  And I know that it's a Disorder because, we all has such a similar pattern to our experiences and just as importantly our reactions.   The real question is why we did not hold our exes responsible for their inappropriate actions.

Moreover, a similar question could be posed about us "nons" on the Board. From what I've seen, about 50 percent get recovery, see their own contribution to the toxic relationship, take self responsibility, detach, grow, learn about their FOO issues and become the people that they wanted to be.  25% stay in denial about the Disorder and their own false selves and forever wait and hope for their ex to return to them and once again mirror their "good".  And about 25% take no responsibility, stay a victim, and stay in a place of anger, victimology, and helplessness until they dry up in bitterness.

Do those last two 25% groups know?   Should we give them a free pass?  How much of the behavior of us "nons" is because we're weak, difficult, stubborn, pompous,  know-it-alls?  And how much is because we got caught in the Disorder.

I believe that I asked a reasonable question that I don't see asked enough or even at all. I don't believe it should be discounted as "irrelevant" just because their is another more important "real" question that overrides this question which involves turning the finger back at myself. Instead two individual questions should be asked.

I am looking for others opinions. Whether people here are "weak" or "pompous" as it relates to your 25% illustration of Nons and whether we should give them a pass, it's none of my business really. The only business I make of it is attempting to help anyone on this site I can out of caring. My ultimate business is my wife and me. I took wedding vows to this woman and if I have questions on a disorder that she has that's ok. I'm about to file for divorce from this woman.    

Sorry you're going to divorce man, very painful that, on top of what you've been through already.

A borderline is not responsible for their disorder, but they are responsible for its care and their behavior.  Part of the disorder is impulsiveness, just another facet of an inability to self soothe.  Self soothing tools can be learned however, and if a borderline won't learn them and the resulting behavior damages a relationship, they are responsible, no other way to look at it.  For me, I could handle the continuous chaos, it was totally unpredictable and unreliable, but also kind of exciting.  But the lying and infidelity? Hell no, gotta go sweetheart.  No one gets a free pass if the behavior violates my values and it's disrespectful, something you might look at.

And then, once you've had some time out of the enmeshment, there's an opportunity to shift the focus from her to you, since it takes two to tango; fertile field for growth there, and duress is a great motivator.  Take care of you!

Awake how often do you still see her?

There has been no communication since she abandoned me. I have seen her a couple times though since on the street. No words were spoken though. She waved once from about 15 feet away. She didn't start walking any closer to me though, just waved like she was waving at her grandma or something. So weird. I just stared at her with a blank look for about 3-5 seconds and kept walking, I didn't wave. She had this clueless look on her face or maybe it was of shame, I don't know. I really did love this woman.

Awake how did that make you feel the last time you saw her?

Pain. I loved this woman with all my heart. I hid the pain from her though with a blank look and just kept casually walking. During that 5 seconds I was trying to look through her eyes into her soul and get all of the answers there and find out what her intentions were. It was all in super slow motion. After about 2 seconds when I saw that she wasn't walking toward me and staying 15 feet away with the grandma wave, I was determined to stay strong with no visible emotion and keep going. It's just not meant to be though. There is no going back.

To be fair to Tausk you did say you welcome any and all opinions and no fingers are being turned back.


It's a collegial discussion everyone has the same vested authority.


https://bpdfamily.com/content/terms-service


Some BPD cheat and some don't from the accounts of other members on this board. Having said that I know from my ex she won't say sorry and she has dissociated when I told her she was having an affair. I can't get her to fess up. It's not important to me if she does or does not because it's over. I'm split black. I wouldn't want to take her back because I don't trust her after breaking our trust. If the opportunity came that she wanted to get back together I need to be able to trust someone and I can't trust her to not sleep with someone else. Disordered or not disordered. If she cheated once I can work with that, but multiple times. I'm sorry but it's over.

AwakenedOne as heeltoheal said divorce is tough. It's the absolute most difficult thing that I went through in my life and I'm sorry for you too. I know non-disordered couples that went through high conflict divorce.

Having said that, why is it so important that your ex is disordered and she has to feel sorry and apologize because of said disorder? You have said in previous posts she tried to kill you in your sleep. I'd be fearful of that alone and want nothing else to do with her, cheating would be the least of my worries.

Awake the level of rejection when u have given the most tender parts of your heart to a BPD is the worst kind of pain I can imagine.  It must have hurt so bad when she didn't walk over to say hi.

You always talk about the mailman did she f your pads mailman?

No offense taken and no offense meant either in return.




That is not what I asked in this thread or my intentions at all.

This seems to be the answer to the question. I appreciate this FHTH. Thx

I appreciate everyone that took time to comment. Thx

AJ Mahari (member here) was once BPD, had 2 parents with BPD and got into a relationship with a BPD\npd after her recovery. if you can go back to her posts she announce it boldly that borderlines should be held accountable to their behaviors and that they have enough awareness of what they are doing and they know the difference between bad and good.


post number 57 for her

Antony James,

Thank you for finding the AJ Mahari quote. This is very helpful.

You are awesome.

AO

Right after mine moved out (saying there was no one, of course) to move in with her new hero, I was driving back from the beach with my surfboard on top of my VW Beetle (dropping that info only to illustrate that I was highly visible/recognizable)... .I am driving into a setting sun so the light is shining in my face and in the opposing traffic I see the silouette of a person with their head out of the car and waving like mad... .I am not exaggerating. You guessed it?  What the heck? "I really did love this woman" Yeah, me too.  I cannot even attempt to explain the painful effect on me of this behavior.  She is shacked up with another guy, I miss her terribly and this is what I get?  The behavior of a 3-yr.-old. Totally bizarre. The hurt was something out of a horror novel... .like... ."is this really happening or did I just imagine that?

I just stared too. I think my mouth may have been open as well.

I guess it is all just fun and games for the pwBPD.

Awakened:

I'm sorry if I caused you distress.  And in rereading my response I can see how it might be interpreted as unsupportive.  That was not my intention and I will continue to try and express myself in a more clear manner.  My goal on this board is to help myself and others move on beyond the addiction and pain from being attached to a pwBPD.   

I can't imagine what you're going through.  I barely survived a typical toxic interaction, and it's taken me almost as long out of it to heal as I was in it.  I don't know how I would have made it myself if I had taken marriage vows. Those of us on this side of the board are usually people of character and conscience, so vows are very sacred to our sense of self.  I personally would have withstood almost anything except for the fact that my ex constantly mirrored back ups when she was distressed and dissociated.  And when I set this as a boundary, it triggered her into an uncontrolled fireball of hatred.

I appreciate your sharing, although I'm not clear as to where you are at in the process.  If you are looking for techniques to communicate better with your wife and perhaps save your marriage, then the Staying Board might be a better place.  Or if you are still "thinking" about a divorce then the Undecided Board might provide answers. And if you are looking for techniques to move forward with the divorce the Divorce Board can provide support that I cannot.  And if you are hoping to learn more about the Disorder from the clinical perspective, there are books on that.  Or just reading 2010 posts from beginning to end helped me tremendously.

I did not mean to say that the question was irrelevant.  Just that my response to the question in my mind at this point my my recovery is irrelevant.  I'm strictly on the Leaving Board. And my responses are strictly how to detach, depersonalize, stay away from any interaction with the Disorder, and examine my FOO issues and defective schemas and recover.  And gratefully it is happening for me. 

For the vast majority of people here on the Leaving Board, the interaction is a toxic destructive addiction.  That's why no contact is one technique discussed.  And I know that many people on this side of the board don't recover.  Many stay in the two categories of "limerence" or "victims".  And it's very painful for me to see people waste a lifetime in these phases.  I could still end up in those categories as well.

And yes, it's important to learn about the Disorder in order to detach and depersonalize.  Therefore, when the questions are "why do they do this?", or "how can they not care?" or "how to get closure?"…... the answers are usually, "It's the Disorder, learn about the Disorder, Detach, Depersonalize, and examine why we invited the Disorder into our lives."

But it's so important not to dwell on BPD.  How many of us have obsessively googled BPD over and over and over, hoping for an answer that will different that the ones we have been told.  How many of use secretly hope that maybe our ex is different.  That maybe they will see the light.  That they were higher functioning, that maybe there's a cure for BPD, they maybe they can change, that their ex wasn't so abusive, or didn't cheat so they are different, or maybe if I had done something different, or maybe if I had married my ex then things would have gotten better……………And my response on the Leave Board is, "The Disorder always wins.  The only not to lose is leave the interaction as a victim"

Moreover, what is critical for so many on this Leaving Board is stopping the relapsing and this first step is absolutely necessary.  Look how many people go back and forth and each time are much more further destroyed.  Each time a bigger chunk of our souls and self respect is ripped off and left as trash on the side of the road.  Even a phone conversation or text can trigger us.  Too much focus on our exes is a very slippery slope on this Board. 

On a drug addict board, you will not find a discussion thread on the different grades of Heroin. 

So for any question, the response I think will help me the most and I'm hoping others on this board is how does this relate to the Disorder?  What do I need to learn about the Disorder here?  How does my FOO and defective schemas come into play with the Disorder?  What actions can I take to help me recover?

And for me, the best response at as I said before, my ex was very limited in what she could do.  The Disorder was often too strong for her to make rational decisions.  Just like all people, there was constructive and destructive behavior in her as well as me.  The question is why did I allow the behavior from both of us?  And instead of labeling "them" in categories, looking at labeling us in categories provides me the humility to realize that I have just as much responsibility in the destruction and to let go and become the person I want to be. 

The only path to recovery for me is to leave and close the door to the Disorder, to eventually turn everything around to myself and take responsibility for my next action with mindfulness. 

In support

T

In thinking of the original question, I really do not know when I drew the line.

Given that I kept allowing the door to be open to her, it is possible I never did.

But on June 18th I saw her in a truck with a man I had heard from others she was with. I am indifferent to it as it exists now; but it did make me see I might have been living a 7 year lie.

The thought of her disgusts me since June 18th---so that is the my "Independence Day". That line is good enough for me.

Tausk i agree with your words that we eventually have to get there. Speaking personally i can call myself detached at this current moment. But when i read a post from anyone disgarding he or she is new or not, i try to see at what stage he or she is now and remember how did i feel when i was in his or her position during this stage. If "the disorder always wins" is a golden quote (and i truly believe in it) "be always kind to the broken" is also a golden one. Some people get stuck i agree with you. I myself got stuck for some time. But nobody gets out of his or her stuck place except by himself or herself. Hard criticizm will not help. It may keep them more stuck. I know exactly how you feel cause i am where you are now. I just pick the topics with subjects that suits my healing stage right now. I think we should check the personal inventory board more now.

I think this is a terrific topic and gave me some food for thought.  Thank you all.

I have realized that I am currently working on forgiving my ex for things that were in his control (he did drugs and he cheated) and have let go of the things that were beyond his control at the time (out of control feelings, disordered thinking).  Since one does not accidentally ingest drugs nor accidentally have sex with someone, these took planning and forethought.  But I forgive him simply because holding onto the anger and hate only hurts myself.

Am I perfect at it?  Hell no!  I still have moments where I'm feeling triggered and all my pent up anger and anxiety comes boiling to the surface.  But now that I realize those feelings aren't helpful, I try to gain control of myself and work on forgiveness for both of us - him for what he's done and myself for reacting badly to things at times.

I have also come to the conclusion that I felt like a victim.  But a victim implies things beyond my own control.  I was bad at setting boundaries and sticking with them.  I was bad at trusting my ex's words and ignoring the actions.  I had it within my power to control those things.  I have accepted my own part in the problems in the r/s but will never accept blame for the drugs or the cheating.

My ex isn't all bad, of course.  That's the power of the r/s right?  If he was an evil puppy kicker it would be so much easier to detach.  But we have kids together, will always be bound by them.  I can't go NC without hurting the kids, so I go LC and only communicate about them.  I left to save them from chaos and refuse to inflict further suffering on them. 

When we know better, we can do better right?

Tausk,

Thank you for the very helpful and thoughtful response.

I definitely look at where I fit into all of this. I currently have a lot of anger. Some at myself and some at her. I just spent all my money retaining a lawyer for the full price of what he estimates the divorce to be. She took everything when she left. I've been surviving and now I'm broke again because vows were not honored. We were struggling for money a lot the last year of our marriage because she kept destroying much of our property in rages. Many thousands of dollars in damages. I never knew about BPD till 5 months after we separated. Since then my part time miserable "hobby" has been figuring out what the 4 year marriage was all about and who my wife really is or was.

Peace,

AO

Is your lawyer familiar with BPD AwakenedOne? Do you have Bill Eddy's book Splitting Divorcing a Borderline Personality Disorder? You will be faced with an emotional barrage from your ex in the following months. It's going to be intense but the important thing is to stick to the facts and don't play into the emotional immaturity and the FOG. It's gong to be difficult but it can be manageable Do you communicate with her by email?

AO:  I'm so very sorry for your pain.  I became emotional reading the above.  As I said, I didn't marry my ex. But I had so much pain and anger to process.  I know yours must be even more difficult to move through. 

But I know that because our interactions fit a very distinct trend, that what happened is not unique to us specifically.  And that can bring us hope for recovery because other people can validate our experiences, and even more importantly there are proven methods to help us recover. 

I've rediscovered parts of myself that I didn't know existed two years ago.  And I am grateful for the recovery.  I feel that I am more complete today that I have ever been in my life.  I still ruminate.  I still get lost in the what ifs... .  I still get obsessively angry that she married the guy she cheated on me with, who I introduced to her, and she has now moved 100 miles to live in my town.

But it passes.  And it has less and less hold on me.  And I say this so that you can find hope that it is possible to move through the pain and find ourselves.

The FOG gets so thick, and we almost lose everything that is real about ourselves to the Disorder.  But recovery is possible and the potential to become the people we always wanted to be is real. 

I have faith just from what you wrote above that you will find your way through this and find self realization and become  an ever stronger more loving person.  We are people of sincerity and character, and we have the strength for introspection, growth, and meaning in our lives.  And we are not alone and we do recover.

Where do we draw the line? Everyone has there own " line in the sand " Some people are capable of more suffering and denial then others.

The maddening and frustrating thing is that when they are sweet they are so innocently sweet that we are hypnotized into the delusion that the things they say and do just cant be happening. Its just so upsetting to have been on the receiving end of that incredible sweetness and then one time, who remembers the first... .to get HAMMERED in your face with some unbelievable behavior that you unfortunately discovered.

Denial... .then bargaining and negotiating. They are smart mostly, sometimes very... .they have keen senses of humor and then they say the most immature, stupid, inane impossibly obtuse things and create scenarios and live into them. Nothing out of your mouth will change their thinking once they are in the borderline twilight zone.  It so tragically frustrating!

I dont want to be on this board anymore. ( dont get me wrong)  I want my head to be clear... .I want to be free of this compulsion to contact, I want the internal dialogue in my head to STOP, I want to be detached ALL THE TIME. I want to be FREE ... .I want to stop ruminating that maybe THIS time, it will be different.

I HATE HATE HATE the fact that shes cheated on me and not just me... .everyone shes ever been with to her own admission. We know what its like to have to endure that betrayal because that is exactly what it is.  She has zero empathy, zero. She admits it. Its the worst thing someone has to endure... .they give it no more thought then they would a glass of water. They want what they want when they want it, and if you have been split black, painted black, devalued or demonized by them at any point then they just do not care, and walk away from the relationship as if it never happened to them. Its almost amazing. I ONLY WISH i could be that way.

I pulled this off of another site. Its the authors opinion but I lean this way.

This is what the author from the other site had to say

"In the latter stages of a BPD relationship you will get to the point where her overt cuckolding of you is an acceptable situation. You think you’ll mitigate it by negotiating some “open relationship” status with her. You will internalize the reasoning that negotiating for her desire is preferable to losing her. You’ll propose that an open relationship means you’re both free to ___ other parties, when in reality it’s the only way you can rationalize for yourself the fact that she’s going to go ___ other guys, and you’re going to accept it because you’re locked into her neurosis. It’s your fault she feels compelled to ___ other guys – and you’ll believe it."

Ive drawn the line... .She cant contact me unless she drives to my house which she wont do. Now all i have to do is grind and grind and grind and re-locate my stones and find the GRIT i used to have when I was younger and LET HER GO and MOVE ON with a life without her in it. I just cant deal anymore, I dont know about you guys.  Who among you has my endless capacity for suffering. Its not where do we draw the line... .its DRAW THE F*CKING LINE ALREADY. lol ... . man I have had Enough.

 lol, yes for me too it is DRAW HTE F-ING LINE ALREADY!

I thought I drew the line when my uBPDexbf posted a video of me on you-tube, with the intent to destroy my career. He entitled it such that anyone googleing me as a professional would have stumbled accross it. He also broke into my e-mail account and e-mailed a male friend of mine some very nasty stuff. I stayed N/C for 3 months, although mostly because he didn't make any reconciliation attempts.

Then of course I conveniently "forgot" those things and reengaged. During the recycle - the first, and only, so far - (I am right now struggling not to have a 2nd) the BPD ex seemed to know that he couldn't push as hard, so it was just a constant stream of little stabs at my ego, devaluations, flaunting the fact that in the meantime he went back to the ex and making sure I knew, that I reengaged and that he really didn't want the relationship again. So I didn't draw the line at emotional cruelty.

I think I would draw the line at physical abuse? I have always said that if ever a BF would become physically violent I would be gone forever. Then again, I have accepted so many things in the last 9 months that I never ever imagined I would accept, that I am not even sure about that anymore.

ABSURD!

Mutt,

I told the lawyer I want a no fault divorce. That is an option in this state. She can refuse and turn it into a fault divorce which she would have to prove though. Hopefully she won't contest it. We have no joint property or kids. She always made more money than me, so I don't think she can get alimony. Actually probably I could, the lawyer thought so and said she could be forced to pay for the divorce. I told the lawyer I just want out, do it in a friendly non confrontation way. I just said she is unpredictable and might decide to be a "jerk". He told me he will do his best that I have no contact with her. I think possibly when she gets the papers served to her she will attempt to contact me. I plan to not allow any contact.

Tausk - thank you.

I lost her, but I hope to find myself.

You're an intelligent man and it sounds like you have this figured out. You identified that you have residual anger towards her and work through healthy anger. Be prepared for anything as this will really trigger her fear of abandonment and as your L said, let him deal with her. That's what your paying him for. Stay strong and stay cool through this AwakenedOne.

I feel for you Split black and I'm sorry  . Here's an article that should reframe your thoughts and help you cope with this painful experience.



PERSPECTIVES: The Biology of Breaking Up - why it hurts [romantic partners] (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=141948.0)

You definitely did ask a reasonable question and a good one at that. Hes right a similar question could be asked about us nons but the fact is that it was not asked so it's safe to say that it is not relevant on this post. I agree though with what he is trying to express we can't get stuck on the external however let's get real here. Most of us are left with no closure due to the "disorder" so that leaves us with questions. We are all engaged in a journey and we will explore both external and internal along the way. We loved these people and probably some of us still do down at our core so we need to explore exactly what we are feeling and address it not run from it and act like it doesn't exist. Thanks for asking this question as it has my mind working.


I think we are all beings of light and all have potential but I do also feel that there are malevolent people as well as forces out there. I have explored forums that are full of people with BPD just to see what the heck is going on or get some type of clarity as to what happened. It seems that some of them do know fully what they are doing and just do not give a crap and then there are some who really genuinely do not want to hurt people but do. I have seen some who are very self aware and grab every single book they can on BPD and also try to engage fully in therapy. I have read some that choose to be alone until they get it together so that they don't hurt anyone. I have also read on some who take a Marilyn Monroe approach to things aka "If you can't love me at my worst then you don't deserve me at my best". You can break down that quote however you like but Im sure you will get the same perception that I do of that statement. So I think it is safe to say that some of them probably are just rotten. If you are walking around damaging people and causing destruction and you know it and just take a I don't care approach then there you have it. The disorder isn't theyre fault but it is they're responsibility to take care of it and they're actions belong to them only. They are responsible for what they do to people. I don't think it is easy for them. I think recovery is probably grueling and very difficult. In summary I do beleive that some of them simply do not give a ___ and have embraced so much negative energy that they are simply malevolent not hopeless but simply have chosen the dark side and said hey this is who I am. How do we know which type we had? To be honest dude I have no ___ing idea lol 

Ag,

That seems to be the most accurate way to put it. I also think depending on the company they keep will change their approach to the disorder. Mine was a good one the. She started hanging out with yolo idgaf type people and it she turned to the dark side at least for a while

This is such a hidden gem that you dug up Anthony. What makes it so relevant is that it is from the mouth of a former borderline. Proves what I already knew. Hold theyre asses accountable whether your staying or not. They are not puppets on a string they control theyre own bodies. So do we.

Yes, this is good.  I like much of what AJ has done.  In fact, one of her videos provided me with the strength to leave my ex.  And the question is how does this information help me on the Leaving Board?   It helps me first of all to hold my ex responsible and to never let the Disorder back into my life.   And, it helps to stop any recycle attempt.  

And, it doesn't help to try and figure out which of my ex's actions I should hold her specifically responsible for because she knew versus the Disorder.  I hold her responsible for all of her past transgressions.  And I know that the Disorder will prevent her from taking any responsibility.  She's already run away past the point of self realization.  In fact, she can't even remember the vast majority of the things she did when we were together.

Thus this a partial way to end the hope/uncertainty (limerence) that the mirror of the false self might be rebuilt.

But the larger question still remains, Why did I allow and engage in actions that were fundamentally against my standards of behavior for so long.  Why did I lose myself?  I don't think my ex is an evil sociopath.  She feels much more deeply than me.  But her actions were sociopathic, destructive  and I accepted them.  So the question is why did I invite the Disorder into my life and why am I still not able to leave the attachment to the Disorder?

And the fact that someone knows an action is destructive but still engages in that action. well... .how many of us know that we need to let go of our exes and we can't.  My friends and family stopped being willing to listen to me whine years ago.  They just as a group stopped responding when I started to whine.  

So, I know that I need to let go and move on.   I know that my ex never thinks of me and has even forgotten who I am.  And I know that when I ruminate, and live in pathetic self pity, or have a childish angry tantrum, I'm living in Victim mode.  

And there's very few existences less attractive than living in long-term victim mode.   How much more pitiful could my life be in that I'm still in love or that I'm still a victim to someone what doesn't even remember me?   I know it's pathetic, but I at times still can't seem to control my actions.  

So how do I move forward and recover?   By holding myself responsible for my actions before I hold my ex responsible for hers.  By taking responsibility for my closure and NOT waiting for it to be provided to my by my ex.   By admitting and having compassion and forgiving myself for my transgressions before I ask them of my ex.  Simply, by first looking on my side of the street.  

And I recover by accepting that my ex might have known, but I didn't set boundaries, so whether she could have changed is irrelevant in my case because I didn't demand that she take responsibility.  And as AJ said, unless I hold myself responsible, I just live in learned helplessness.  Everything that I point at my ex, I can point at myself, and that is how I take responsibility and recover.  

That is my message to people on this board, because some of us will not recover.  Some of us will wait for the mirror to return, and some of us will stay victims and wither away in their own self hatred.  

I could easily end up in one of those two categories.  So I have to work mindfully at my recovery in all aspects of my thoughts and actions.

And gratefully today, there are times when I can forgive my ex, not justify enable or sanction... .just forgive her, because that's how I move out of Victim mode.  That's how I let go of the shame.  That's how I become detached from the Disorder.  That is how I recover.

Thanks Tausk for these wise words. These are the thoughts of people here who are close to healing. this is not 101 healing so that new members will not get down if they can't feel the same way now. Tausk's words is a live prove of hope. we can all do it people. we should find hope to move on. you will all find hope inside your own self.

It's interesting, once we somewhat understand the priorities and thought processes of a borderline, to try and see the world through their eyes.  A borderline is not responsible for their disorder, although they are responsible for its care and their behavior, but how do they see it?  Borderlines feel everything intensely, no volume knob, so there's lots of motivation for developing tools to make the bad feelings not hurt so much.  Projection, reframing and distorting reality to make things more tolerable, if someone is really successful at that, they have absolutely no idea that they were responsible for something, or even remember what really happened accurately.  Such is mental illness.  The more detached I get the more interesting and bizarre it gets to look at things through a BPD lens.


In my case it was because we will violate our values to meet our needs.  I went into it thinking she was 'normal', and fell under the spell of someone for which attachment, in that unhealthy fusing-of-psyches-to-create-one-person way, is absolutely mandatory, and someone who has been at it for decades and knows what works and what doesn't.  So here's someone with a mandatory requirement and expertly refined tools to meet that requirement; I was a sitting duck.  But it didn't really take long for me to start listening to my gut, which was screaming, and leave her, less than a year. 

And the most valuable thing that has surfaced?  My tendency to confuse the longing for love, the chase for it, with real love, deep seated in me, from not feeling loved the way I needed to be when young no doubt, but the knowledge of that, just the knowledge, borne out of borderline hell, has been profound.  It's said a borderline just shows us how we've felt about ourselves our whole lives, along with a healthy dose of pain to drive it home, and how cool is that? 

So what if we cut ourselves some slack and choose to believe that we were the target of someone with a serious mental illness, a con artist in their own way, there's no way we could have seen it coming, and not only that, the silver lining was the profound growth made available by the extreme, painful borderline mirror.  What if everything happens for a reason and it serves us, and sometimes gifts come very well disguised?  I'm sticking with that, as life just keeps getting better and better, for us all... .

Thanks for this thread AwakenedOne and discussion as it made me really think about the difference between accountability and blame towards a loved one with BPD. It makes me ask the question where is the line between accountability and blame? Where do you draw it?


www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blame



www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accountability

Thank you |iiii

Yeah... .there is a lot of truth in that quote. We have to do something about the situation to make it better. On our own. Here, here.

Big-Boy pants required. LOL!

I agree!   I believe in cutting myself a lot of slack.  I have to forgive my invitation for the Disorder to enter into my life.  Because at the time, I did not understand myself or the Disorder.  

And it wasn't that my ex was a knowing con artist.  She just acts on survival instincts.  But she genuinely wanted to love me and for me to love her.  She was honest in her desire for love and in her idealization of my good.  But, the mirror was just was not sustainable, and not how I need love to be enacted into my life.

But I need to have great compassion and forgiveness to myself.  Especially because the intentions on both sides were idealized.  

However, I also need to take responsibility for my recovery.  I'm not responsible for the fact that the Disorder entered my life.  I didn't know or understand what was happening.   But I am responsible for my recovery.  My actions and behaviors for now on are my own.  

But it's hard.  OCD/PTSD/ADHD... .I obsess and ruminate.  I'd rather find the familiar place of pain and resentment rather than move forward.  If I had spent half the time I did ruminating about my ex and instead working on my FOO issues and my defective schema's, I'd be free and happy.  But I choose(?) to often sit with my familiar pain.

And my reactions to triggers are difficult to control.  Sadly, the fact is that living life was an overwhelming and terrifying trigger for my exwBPD.  But in my recovery, I can respond differently to my triggers.

It's a process.  Compassion and forgiveness for ourselves is so important.  Mindfulness in my thoughts and actions.  Focus on recovery.  And taking responsibility like an adult.  Not the child when I entered in the interaction, but instead the adult who has come out on the otherside.

WOW... .great observation and guidance Tausk! Spot on.

"But I need to have great compassion and forgiveness to myself.  Especially because the intentions on both sides were idealized. 

However, I also need to take responsibility for my recovery.  I'm not responsible for the fact that the Disorder entered my life.  I didn't know or understand what was happening.   But I am responsible for my recovery.  My actions and behaviors for now on are my own. 

But it's hard.  OCD/PTSD/ADHD... .I obsess and ruminate.  I'd rather find the familiar place of pain and resentment rather than move forward.  If I had spent half the time I did ruminating about my ex and instead working on my FOO issues and my defective schema's, I'd be free and happy.  But I choose(?) to often sit with my familiar pain.

And my reactions to triggers are difficult to control.  Sadly, the fact is that living life was an overwhelming and terrifying trigger for my exwBPD.  But in my recovery, I can respond differently to my triggers.

It's a process.  Compassion and forgiveness for ourselves is so important.  Mindfulness in my thoughts and actions.  Focus on recovery.  And taking responsibility like an adult.  Not the child when I entered in the interaction, but instead the adult who has come out on the otherside."

Mutt,

I am not looking for any apologies or to cast blame or for her to accept responsibility. I just want to know what real flavor of ice cream she is or was. I will never taste her fkd up ice cream again though so it doesn't ultimately matter. I would prefer to know though.I want to know if she had a choice to poison me with the ice cream or was she just HELPLESS? She apologized 100 times to me in the past years. The sorry's and her word in general means nothing. Who physically harms their husband and then leaves with no conscience and doesn't care if their husband gets better or not enough to check on them ever again? Sick & evil or just really fkn sick or really fkn evil. Knowing that I loved a dear family member of mine she would constantly tell me they hated me and brings up some moment where my dead family member was disappointed at me and she even sucker punched me in anger while visiting the mausoleum? When she abandoned me she did a horrible mocking gesture toward me that is haunting.

According to AJ Mahari pwBPD are not helpless.

I have 3 kids with my ex and as a father to those kids and my SD she worries me. I've seen the effects on splitting and what it does to a family it's devastating. My ex is Queen / Witch and the Witch can be cruel and mean on the kids.

It's a challenge in my life but it's manageable by taking control back. Disengaging from the triggers and arguments. I do minimal contact and have firm boundaries. It buffs out my space to take care of my kids with validating them, providing an emotional safe zone and nurturing them. I had to get the toxins out of my system to be present for my kids. A part of that was not letting ex rent space in my head and I had to let go of the awful pain that she set on me, and the unresolved FOO issues that surfaced after the break up. I had to let her go and move away from her orbit to move in a positive direction for my kids. They needed a healthy dad not a bitter & resentful dad so that I could accomplish those goals and grow with them and find happiness in my life. Find another woman and possibly re-marry again.

I like AJ Mahari because she gives you access to the disordered thinking of a borderline personality disorder. She also talks about radically accepting your loved one. I chose to radically accept my wife for the way that she is and for the trauma that she caused. That came after working through my anger. How does that sound like for you as a goal Awakened One? Radical acceptance?

I could forgive everything that happened "in the heat of the moment".  The jealousy, raging, devaluing.  I understand that he simply could not handle those emotions.  What I have a harder time with is the lies, the manipulation, the behaviors that were calculated and not intense emotional reactions.  My exBF knows he has BPD.  He understands the behaviors.  He refuses to seek help for the disorder (despite his promises to do so) and I think he uses it as an excuse.  When he first asked me to research it and I expressed some of my fears he got angry and said "So it's all about you."  He plays the victim.  I had such a $hitty childhood this is just the way I am. 

Mutt, today I started thinking about her and the divorce and made a decision instead of dwelling on it and wasting time I pulled my guitar out and learned a complex new song and felt good. I try to put a lot of positive things into my life. Do you think even though she abandoned me, being surprised with divorce papers now will trigger her abandonment BPD issues? Hard to understand that.

Playing the guitar is cool! I had a hard time wrapping my head around the fear of abandonment when my ex is the one that filed the divorce papers. I didn't know she was doing that, I was in family court filing papers around the same time for the kids.

I believe everyone she had an intimate relationship is an attachment and she doesn't completely detach. She sent a lot of email bombs during court ( family not divorce, I'm not divorced yet) and was shifting blame for the failure of the marriage etc. She threw up a lot of FOG on my parenting and how I wouldn't get the kids etc.

I was limping and knee deep in pain at this time and it was very difficult with her aggressive behavior, dissociations, accusations and threats. It was an emotional barrage. She had rages at the kid exchanges, dissociations, blackmail and I have a voice recorder app and use it. I document and I communicate to keep electronic proof.  It was hard because I wasn't detached, the boyfriend was around sometimes and the pain I was feeling day to day.

Don't take lightly what your ex could do in this divorce be prepared for anything, and have all your ducks lined up. Mine projected her actions saying that I'm the one that's emotionally, physically and financially abusive when it's her. Your ex will likely project her emotional immaturity, physical abuse and destructive tantrums on you. She's losing you, it's triggering her abandonment insecurities.

Watch for patterns. My ex had patterns in court triangulation being one and would triangulate me with my lawyer. She also has a pattern of all or nothing in courts. She will adjourn and stall until it goes to the end. I notice she doesn't like authority or judges and she falls short right before court. Everything in between is FOG but I have my documents and emails just in case.


Just know that it may be difficult, it's manageable but difficult when you're detaching. Let your L deal with her that's why your paying him, go radio silent and don't respond to email bombs etc Anything you send will be read to her friends and may be read out in court. Use BIFF to communicate.

I didn't get married to get divorced AwakenedOne and I took my wedding vows just as serious as anyone else. It's important to me and it was so hard letting that go. You held your end of the contract. She didn't, you own that. I'll make wiser choices and find a woman that takes vows seriously. I married an emotionally immature woman with a lot of baggage that cannot sustain an inter-personal relationship. It is what it is and I radically accept that. I didn't know it at the time. But it's cutting yourself some slack. You're too good of a man for her AwakenedOne. Work on working out her toxins and letting go.  

Look at the longview and rebuild. My ex did a number on me financially and walked away with nearly everything. I'll bounce back at the end of all this but I don't want to be engaged in her malarkey. After family court was settled I laid down serious boundaries and I get some peace and quiet. She'll likely take me back to court at some point but I'm ready. For now I have short and longterm plans and it's about starting a new chapter without her or toxic relationships. I like not having her around anymore because I'm not wound up tending to her needs and I'm not walking on eggshells, that peace is enough for me for now.

You are all so wise!  I learn something new off of every thread I read here.

My ex continues to play on my guilt of leaving someone I know to be ill.  I'm still working through that.  I've established stricter rules for communicating with him about the children.  He had the kids on Thursday (they had a blast).  When I picked them off, he said goodbye and as we were leaving he yells to me "it would be nice if you made some time in your busy schedule for me!"  I just kept walking but every time he hints at getting back together, I dash his hopes and trigger his abandonment all over again.  But HE does it to himself!  Yet I'm the one left feeling bad? 

I draw the line, today, at feeding into my ex's fantasies of being happily ever after once he "proves" he's a changed man.  Even though I feel bad telling him "no, stop asking it will never happen get better for yourself and the kids" my line is we will never be together and he needs to move on.

Boundaries are our friend.  Guilt is fleeting.  Time makes things better.