BPDFamily.com

I have observed some members in my opinion here that are in love with a romanticized understanding of BPD. Is this healthy?

The member's ex has abused and tossed the member away and now the member has a conscious or subconscious extreme compassion for the disorder which causes an unhealthy link to their ex which makes it impossible for them then to detach. I understand why one would do this. Love is a wonderful thing. It is a very hard thing to lose. There is a danger of excusing past abuse by re-falling in love with a romanticized version of a disordered person. I think the mentality is "There is no way this person would have ever done anything wrong to me such as cheating, lying, stealing, emotional or physical abuse. We all need closure. Is this artificial closure though? I have written this out of compassion for those members. Empathy is good. Facing reality is good also. I think the best thing to do is put empathy and reality in a blender and drink what ever that gives us.

I love te blender metaphor and completely agree. For me personally I think it is an important "stage" in detaching.  The difficult part is reclaiming those emotions. I think if you repress the romanticized vision you won't be able to reclaim those parts of yourself they will he buried with her in the underworld or the unconscious. Those extreme ends of the spectrum of emotions we experiences are our own but we have projected them onto the other, to quote tool " you are just a part of me".

It is our own narcissism that thinks we need the object projected onto to be able to experience what are our own emotions. They showed us what we thought was missing now we must claim it.  What a gift but we have to go through hell to get there. If we repress it we may be more inclined to repeat the huge mistake.

I also want to add as I definately did romantasize BPD and it was for a while another unhealthy attachement to the disorder. What I discovered was I was and am still wanting to have compassion for myself but it is projected onto her just like I projected so many parts of myself.  It was a way of putting all my emotions in one place. It was also because I could relate to the disorder in that I had my own internal fears torn into my conscious awareness or just under the surface like a BPD person. Being able to relate to the disorder and how I was effected was a way of trying to understand my own role in the rs.

I think many of us have more in common with borderlines than we might like to accept. I think many if not all of us "nons" have our own inner demons we hide behind our narcissism we just have a clearer barier than boderline of seperatimg our repressed traumas from our concious awareness.

That barier of separating our uncoincious traumas from concious awareness become compromised after the abandonment not unlike a borderlines life experience. It is a terrifying tragic state of existence that deserves compassion.

I think it is very easy to slip into romanticizing our ex's disorder. I came close today myself. My lawyer asked me to bring in a picture of her to the office to give to a process server so they will know what she looks like when serving the divorce papers. I luckily had a couple pictures left around that were buried. Before I went to the office, I looked at the picture that I gave to the lawyer and I was in something very close to a trance where it was very hard to break away. I looked at that picture for about 10 minutes and got really nauseous. In the picture she is smiling and looks to be the most sweetest and innocent person. Now, knowing after the fact what I do about BPD this was the first time I ever looked at this picture in a "BPD light". It was very easy to feel sorry for her. I looked in her eyes for many minutes. I have to mix the compassion though with cold hard horrible reality.

Awakened

When you looked at the pictures did it bring up any emotions you hadn't felt in a while?


I was thinking more about romanticism of my ex rather than the disorder and how the attachment can be unhealthy. What helped me personally was getting angry.  For whatever reason I repressed my anger. I had anger issues as a child and was often punished for it. I spent a great deal of my late teens conditioning myself to repress my anger.  Rather than anger I would experience frustration.  The other day I got angry and it was confusing at moments but also brought me greater clarity and balanced out many of my unhealthy romanticized attachments to my ex.

On the flip side I think it is also easy to cling to anger as an unhealthy attachment to our exs.  I think the experience of anger is necesary to say enough is enough. I look forward to getting angry again actually.

What I think happens is when we detach and still confused by the fog we find different emotions and we latch onto them to feel something rather than confusion again. If we cling to that emotion it has the potential to become unhealthy if we Use it to deny other emotions.

Surprisingly not really. I would of thought I would have felt sadness or love but no, not really. I guess I have detached a lot.

The feeling was just of being very nauseous. Looking at the picture put me in a trance like state sort of, hard to explain. Like a weird gravity to draw me into the picture where its was hard to break away. The more I looked the sicker I felt. I got a bad headache and was really nauseous. It's like I was in the picture with her and time was back one day before we broke up. For me the love was gone but the presence and feeling of our togetherness was there.  

Wow how far out are you?

You got any advice on getting angry?  Balancing anger with compassion seems to be the solution to helping to detach unless there's another method?

I'm 10 months out, I never new about BPD till 5 months ago though and had not a bit of peace before drawing that conclusion. My beginning of peace started 5 months ago.

I look at it different, it's not about balancing anger and compassion. More balancing compassion and reality instead. I think if you have too much compassion for your abuser something is not healthy. After all, that's why we stayed with the abuser while we were together with them. If we have too much compassion we are stuck. Eventually if we have too much anger we are stuck. Anger just goes with this BPD relationship hell trauma recovery process I think. I'm being easy on myself and allowing emotions. I'm starting divorce papers and I know I'm going to have days of being disgusted with her and that's normal.

As far as getting rid of anger or getting it to come out: Maybe put on the Rollins Band "Liar" video and think of how many lies your ex told you while listening to him sing. Yell out she is a "Fill in the blank" at the top of your lungs. Allow yourself to laugh when Henry Rollins is wearing a nun outfit though in the video for some comedy relief.

Awakened, interesting post.  I am where you are in detachment. Its difficult because the process is different for each person depending where they are in their journey to healing.  Mine really was augmented greatly when I found this site several months ago as you did. There's so much missing in being able to detach because, when you are in the chaos, the emotional torment isn't really clear to identify.  You're working so hard at trying to figure out what is happening to this " soulmate" great love bond that you had have and the roller coaster ride keeps reality far out of sight.  Every time the ride stops to refuel you're back in the throws of the fantasy.  Being emotionally manipulated further.  But because " its love" it doesn't show itself as abuse. Thats why it takes more time to regain yourself, with all the ruminators  and re-romantisizing and questioning and hoping that the bad parts weren't really real. 

Such a process and so painful but radical acceptance came for me with identifying all that happened, really understanding the d/o through the incredible support and information here and admitting it really all did happen.  Its not romantic at all when I look at it that way now.  I have to say "it happened" and I understand it now.  Taking more time and effort now to understand why I couldn't take better care of myself in that interaction and putting all the compassion in doing that work to be sure self love is regained and comes first and foremost in all the days ahead.

I looked at a photo the other day as you did.  Felt the same exact way.  Stayed there in that trance for a bit waiting for the sadness to come.  Looked at that child in the adult body with the big dark empty eyes.  Felt myself in the BPD bond and identified all that I struggled to understand and fought against to believe, and  felt very happy I got out.

Radical acceptance.  Time. NC. Core work. Detachment. Support.  Healing.

If your definition of the "healthy center" is the Henry Rollins liar video, I can see why some members seem overly compassionate to you.  :)   Henry Rollins was a very angry man at that time in his life.  He grew up with an abusive father.  He couldn't relate to anyone - man or women.  Even he would tell you that was a dark time and a dark mind.

One things I haven't read much of on the Leaving Board over the year is "extreme compassion".  But it that is what you are seeing, it could be an indication of how far into anger you have traveled.

My questions to you... .

Is this a healthy reality for you?

Why do you think it will be a healthier reality for members that you see as having "extreme compassion"


Sounds like your wife is very controlling - which is common compensation for people with lack of emotional control - and you didn't get along. You are also in the pre-divorce stage which is a really negative time in everyones life. 

But you mention in your OP ""There is no way this person would have ever done anything wrong to me such as cheating, lying, stealing, emotional or physical abuse"

What makes you most angry about your relationship?

I agree with Awakened One. Anger was a big part of the detaching process for me. Also, what helped was becoming compassionate for the d/o and not the individual.

It was sort of like this for me.

I cried. I hated myself. I wanted to desperately to understand why the guy just couldn't be NICE when I had given him all I had to give. Eventually, he kept hurting me, over and over, crossing lines I never thought he'd cross. Eventually, I began to get angry.

It was a nice change from crying and shaking day after day. Rage was a welcome change, and for once it felt GOOD not to care what he thought or felt.

But I knew deep down that I was not an angry person, or a depressed one, for that matter. I wanted to go back to my old, caring self, but I knew it was a slippery slope. This is where I began to study all about BPD, and have compassion for the d/o, and not the individual.

Right here, right now, I don't care one bit about his selfish little needs and wants. But I feel sorry for his as a person who has to live with this horrible burden, and that seems to be the balance I've achieved between anger and compassion.

I'm still a little bit angry, and this board is helping me let go of that anger, but it's a process. Ultimately, my goal is to not lose my humanity, to still be kind and compassionate, to not be bitter, and to have the anger leave me completely.

It does get easier with time.

I haved learned the stages of grieving from this site.  Sadness, anger, bargaining,  denial,  and acceptance.   Being overly compassionate may be just denial of the fact that the relationship is over.  We all go through these different stages and eventually come to acceptance.  How long we stay in the process of grieving is anyones guess.  We grieve until we come to acceptance.  Then we move on and become wiser.

Compassion: is the emotion that we feel in response to the suffering of others that motivates a desire to help.

I feel very little compassion at all, is this wrong of me? I did after the break up when I was learning about BPD, I thought if only I could do this or that and make things better for her but I don't feel that now.

I feel anger towards her at times (only in the last couple of weeks)

She is a human being so I should be compassionate, I am compassionate to others but I struggle with having any for her.

I guess, now having a bit more distance/time has helped me come to terms a little more with what actually happened, things appear more clear, things she said, things she did and to be honest she was an awful person to me, hurtful, spiteful, manipulative, deceitful, a nasty piece of work and despite her being lovely to me early doors and me still having some memories of those rather magic times, she wronged me, its as simple as that, how or why would I forgive that or want to.

Maybe I am wired up wrong? Maybe I just don't forgive? or maybe it's that I'm bitter over it and am not willing to forgive her for what she has done? Or maybe I am just not dealing with it in the correct manner?

Or maybe I never truly loved her at all?

You lot seem to be much more forgiving than me, I suspect I will never forgive her but instead let it fade away like a log out at sea. The bitterness will subside and life will continue. The more I've thought about things, the criticism, the accusations, the complete loss of my being due to her actions I have come to understand that actually I am not this horrible person she has painted me out to be, sure, I am not perfect and have my own issues but I am actually a lovely caring confidant guy. I feel like I have found my identity again.

Despite still thinking about her (less I must add) I feel it's time to grab the bull by the horns and start working, spending time, learning, improving MYSELF and not waste energy/thoughts on someone who treated me like dirt and couldn't give a toss about me. It was a chapter in my life as was it one in hers, time to move on.

The poem is very apt I think

People come into your life for a reason, season or a lifetime.

Mine I'm sure was just a reason, a reason to get me to look within and cure my own issues, this I feel ready to look at now in depth, I can be a better person than I am already.

But this compassion thing bothers me somewhat.

True AO, you've been reading my posts. :) Sometimes I think the more I learn the more empathetic I become. It's like the lying and cheating didnt happen. I know it did but I think I've excused it because of the disorder. This hasn't helped me detach at all. It's why I still struggle. I remember the good not the bad. I toss around the idea that now with more knowledge I should be using it to help him. I won't. But I fantasise about it.

Hi Skip,

I'm not endorsing Henry Rollins as our guide to healing. (Blimblam) asked for my advice on how he can get angry because that has helped him in the past. Considering many of us were lied to by our ex's to a very large amount I thought that I would point him to the "Liar" video for a release. By pointing out a possible humorous moment in the video I was trying to advise him to balance expressing ones anger with comedy or anger along with a positive emotion. The "Liar" song is not endorsing lying. It's just saying how sometimes we are deceived and if we had of taken our time and looked and listened we wouldn't get hurt. When someone asks me how they can increase their anger that is a very tough question to answer.

My intent of the thread regarding "Extreme Compassion" is not to critcize anyone. I stated that I feel it's very easy to slip into this but it might not be helpful in my opinion to linger at that stage at our own expense. Compassion is good though, it's the extreme that I am commenting on. If a member thinks more about their ex and has a  love link with their ex's struggles with a huge emotional investment with someone they aren't even in a relationship with I just felt that focusing more on their personal struggles and detaching might benefit them in the long run more. I'm just trying to help and share my opinion, no offense meant.

I'm going through a divorce with a woman who stole all of our money when she broke up and I just spent now all my hard earned money to pay a attorney for a divorce because marriage vows were not honored. I guess I'd say thats the thing that aggravates me the most.

I balance my life though and I try hard to not let anger consume me. I have set goals to let the anger slowly fade. I try to put positive things in my life also.

Thanks for taking time out to respond to the thread. I'll try to be more careful with how I words things and also will take a bit more time and thought when giving advice.

Regards,

AO

Its very true actually.  Extreme compasion.  I know I'm not at acceptance, I'm still attached even with everything I know about the abuse, lies and total crazy making that occurred.  

I know that when I care about not hurting her and I can still see that crazy making occur I get angry but I can 'regulate' my emotions.  A problem she has is she can't do this.  It is all me me me me me and then FK you!

Do I want to be constantly angry and dealing with that for the rest of my life?  In short, no.  

I know soon I will be able to have the crazy making occur, respond and not have it make me angry.  Ill be aware of the manipulation that is happening and just deal with it then and there.  If not, I will walk away and come up with a new stratergy and then counter the new form of manipulation.  

By being angry I feed the beast, by being totally detached the beast has nothing to feed on.  To be detached I have to understand, acknowledge and forgive the beast.  Let it run free and feed on other victims, I don't want those poison fangs bared at me anymore.  

BPD is a cruel primal animal and the harder you try to fight it the more it comes out and wants another round.  All of us can see the pain, confusion and total lack of consistancy.  If we are accepting of the beast.  :)on't agrivate it and every so often throw it a bone.  (Read: win the war and loose a few battles along the way)  

Why not?  If we want to win the war we have to know the enemy.  It isn't a person that we are dealing with, it is a disorder.  Know the beast and you can defeat the beast.  

I am a bit different to others.  I have 16 years of raising a son with said beast and I have to still sit in the same enclosure at meal times.  I don't get a free pass to the new exciting open range zoo just yet.  I am stuck with the reality of having to still see the beast on occasion and avoid falling for the honey trap that will inevitably be set.  

BlimBlam I just read your post re anger. I have no anger. I rarely get angry. Everything in my life had conditioned me to suppress anger. My job requires I not get angry when someone abuses or assaults me. My marriage to a bipolar man for 22 years required me to under react and suppress anger. I think I'm stuck in grief over the breakup because I am unable to feel anger toward my bod. Friends in my life do because of the way he treated me, and I defend him. Maybe I'm just moving through the process too slow. Im not even angry with my ex best friend who betrayed me. I just feel sad. Profoundly sad and hurt. I think I somehow need to get angry angry and start seeing things through other people's eyes. Knowledge of BPD and their turmoil can be good for answering all those unanswered questions, but bad for us very empathetic people.

I think you make a good point here, I remember that throughout or entanglement I tended to get very angry and annoyed with her for being such a nutcase. When she was away from me I began to feel need, desire, desperation even compassion. When I reinstated contact (bad move on my part) It went straight back to anger, I ended up telling her everything i feel against her... and I realise now, that that was my 'closure'... I had to let that anger out, had I repressed it my recovery would have been much longer. In a way I was having a good go at myself too. Because what I hated in her, was what I hated in myself too.

Really our encounters with BPDs are all about ourselves, the healing doesn't come from spending more time with these people, but less, and being able to process our feelings, our hatred (usually self hatred), and being able to view the BPD not as a person, but as an illness - it's so important for us to understand that you're not dealing with a normal pretty girl, but a seriously disordered human being. So what i do is not judge her by what she looks like, or even how lovely her pretty voice is, but by her actions. She is what she does, not who she pretends she is.

My compassion is reserved for the needy, not the greedy - and whilst I know that that is in some ways unchristian of me, I know in my heart that its for the best - it doesn't mean I don't 'love' her in the christian sense, it just means I won't allow her to pass the gates of my heart.

Never through our 20 year relationship did I feel very compassionate. I think I was a bit different because I sort of knew what a healthy rs was like but I was bullied into something else. Fear kept me from saying no and following my instinct. Couldn't stand the silent treatment. Couldn't stand not knowing what she would be like when I came home, so I never left. If she hinted she didn't like something I didn't suggest it again.

I knew something was wrong about her and that her anger and self-loathing was not justified. It was not about compassion. And I knew that *I* did not deserve it. I just swallowed the bitter pill and hoped I could make something good out of it.

I was just so happy that someone wanted to be with me that I put with anything.

I believe compassion and anger can both be felt towards the same individual; they are not mutually exclusive. For those of us who have kids, I'm sure we've been angry at them yet still love them at the same time.

One thing that seems to be common between the "nons" here and pwBPD is reactivity towards feelings. Our feelings aren't right or wrong, but we can get in trouble when we choose to act on them in unhealthy and/or unproductive ways instead of utilizing our "wisemind" to choose the healthiest path. We also have the choice to examine our feelings and process them instead of denying them. The more this happens, the more we can break ingrained responses to negative feelings.

I see the point.

There are a couple of words floating in this conversation:

compassion - concern about someone plight and wanting to help them

empathy - understanding how someone else see things and why the make sense to them

anger - having a strong feeling of being upset or annoyed

detachment - emotional numbing or dissociation, depersonalization

reality - the world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them

And I'll add:

betrayal trauma - deep emotional wound when a someone who is depended upon for survival or well-being significantly violate that person’ s trust

splitting - all-or-nothing thinking, the failure in a person's thinking to bring together both positive and negative qualities of the self and others into a cohesive, realistic whole. It is a common defense mechanism used by many people

wisemind - the balancing and rationalization of ones emotions and rational thoughts

So, in looking at these terms, where are we and where do we want to be (a question to everyone)?

I believe members come here with betrayal trauma. Betrayal trauma theory predicts that the degree to which a negative event represents a betrayal by a trusted or needed other will influence the way in which that events is processed and remembered. Most of the Leaving Board members live this and there is certainly distortion associated with it.

We can react to betrayal trauma in a lot of ways but generally it overwhelms our logical mind and we struggle with it emotionally.  Hurt and a sense of loss are probably at the center of this for many of us, but some avoid this by reacting with anger - a emotion that is easier to process. And some of us bounce back and forth between hurt and anger.

To heal this, generally we have to force ourselves to face the more balanced view of reality (of which empathy is a big part) and detach from the extreme aspects of our own emotions - recognize that they are, if fact, extreme.

We go in the wrong direction if we take the betrayal trauma distortions and split the situation even further, or if we take the cover emotions and fan them to be hotter.

Wisemind is a state where we finally balance, and most importantly, rationalize (eliminate the conflict) between the logic and the emotion.

What are some other thoughts?

Blim,

Balancing compassion and anger doesn't really happen. They are not opposites to balance like a teeter totter.

Anger is its own thing. And there is a lot more to it that one must look at. The depths of anger go back to childhood. Anger wakens when there is real disconnect from reality.

Compassion is a cure. For ones own self, and for the beloved.

There is no real compassion for somebody else until having compassion for oneself and the self-harming acts we have enabled and engaged in.

Anger and compassion can co-exist. When I rage, compassion fades into the background, like a soft voice in a crowded room. When my anger fades, compassion is still there.

Forced compassion is just another way to suppress the anger.

It is easier for us to be angry at our BPD other than take responsibility for our own disconnects. It is easier to have compassion for them.

That is the exact thing that I have had to face for my own self. I need these things for me, and to keep giving and framing everything in context of my xBPD denigrates me and drains my vitality and time.

Skip, As always your insight is beyond thought provoking and inspiring. I have actually been trying to find your own introduction and a bit about how you came to becoming so well versed on so much about BPD and the human condition in general.  Thank you in advance for pointing me to this information.

I came to this site in betrayal trauma. Absolutely. Shocked, still confused, deeply hurting. Little information at hand.

My goal is wise-mind and full detachment from any aspect of splitting my perception of what actually occurred by fanning the emotions I still struggle with. I feel myself get closer but realize its still a process.  Triggers bring back the cover emotions and I side step.

I am also trying to empathize more with myself by working at core issues that bought me to the BPD interaction and kept me there too long.  I am in a place of knowing this experience was more about myself than anyone else. 

I have way more compassion than is good for me.  I'm a "fixer" by nature and I know that people really do get negatively impacted by life events.

That being said, the rational side of me also knows that as adults, we have choices.  Not a lot of them feel good, but once kids enter the picture it's no longer about us individuals.  It's the time to s**t or get off the pot, in my humble opinion.

I saw my ex walking down the street the other day.  He's still damn sexy.  I still have that attraction for him, even after knowing him for 16 yrs.  Plus I'm not getting any, lol, so I'm sure that played a factor.  But I had to force myself to constantly remind myself all the terrible things he did to me (cheated on me) and how his bad choices negatively impacted myself and the kiddos (partying, staying out all night, self-medicating with drugs and alcohol).

I'm only 3 months out.  I'm tired of feeling angry and anxious unexpectedly when triggered.  A few weeks back, our wedding song came on and I instantly bawled like a baby.  There are certain songs, movies and tv shows that trigger me.  But I'm trying to replace those with new, happy events.

This stuff is not for the weak.

I am with you Narellan and refusetosuccumb. I have trouble feeling anger, and in general too much compassion (if there is such a thing)

Even my T keeps asking me: "where is the anger?" I just can't seem to get angry, I am only sad and anxious. I also believe that feeling anger towards the BPD ex would help me detatch.

Instead I do feel compassion. Maybe not as extreme anymore as it used to be before I understood BPD and before he became cold and distant. I know, it seems counterintuitive that my compassion diminished once I understood about BPD. But my extreme compassion was towards him, the tortured soul I got to know over the months of love-bombing and devaluing. I do not have compassion towards the d/o in general.

Before I knew about BPD I could already see that his erratic emotional life was causing him significant pain and more than anything I wanted to help him and figure out what it was that tortured him so. Oddly now that I know and after I very gently nudged him to acknowledge a problem, but he is extremely resistant and even seems to revel in his self-proclaimed narcissism (he even said himself "I am an emotional terrorist" with some satisfaction!) - now my compassion has diminished somewhat. I still desperately want to help him, because I know he is suffering.  But now I am also realizing that I really need to help myself first. And as cliche as it sounds, only by helping myself first, do I have a chance of ever helping him, although that is a very slim chance.

For now I am just working on radical acceptance and trying to survive.

The extent of my compassion for my "wife" is that I'm sorry she has BPD. What I mean by being sorry she has BPD is that this "sorry" and "deep feeling of compassion" is a one day pass at Disneyland. After today I don't enter through the front gates there anymore, my day pass is not valid tomorrow. I need to not be at Disneyland every day and instead I need to visit Realityland and buy a lifetime pass there. If I feel sorry and have compassion that she's got it every day that's extreme non productive and non detached. I don't wish that she fails in life. If I wished ill on someone that would be wrong and I would classify myself in the "extreme" category of wasted negative feelings on someone. I just don't care. It's none of my business now. I was super caring during our marriage. That's over now. I'm supposed to detach. My goal is to think about her less and less each day and ultimately to not think about her at all. This woman abused me and smiled and threw me away worse than taking a dog to the animal shelter. {Why did you stay in that AO?}  Marriage vows and believing promises and forgiving which I will not be ashamed forever or even temporarily of having done. The future is what I need to focus on now and good things in that future. Just because she has BPD doesn't remove her label as an abuser with me. Spending any of my time dwelling on any compassion for this person is very wrong. She is somebody else's problem.

Skip this is ridiculously well written. I really would like to know your back story of how you became so well versed.

To be honest I agree with AO and I agree with you as well. What you are talking about in summary is finding the correct balance and blending it together as to not be lopsided towards anger.

AO has the right idea though still in my opinion. I believe I posted what Im about to post in another comment I wrote but from the research I have done on my own I have found this.


BPD have been broken in a specific way which causes them to consume at a rapid pace. The label that they give us (codependent) have been broken in a specific way also which causes us to push outward at a rapid pace. BPD would have embraced negative energy. Codependent would have embraced positive energy. When I say negative and positive energy I do not say it to express that one is worse than the other or better than the other. Negative energy intakes and positive outputs. To be balanced you would have to have both or better yet to be whole you would have to have both. Codependents have too much compassion and BPD have little to none. BPD consume and destroy others. Codependent output and destroy themselves. What it seems like to me is that AO is exploring some negative energy and balancing himself out finally.

Let's talk about quote on quote healthy people for a second. When you read almost any piece of literature about BPD it will state "Healthy people will not date them". Why do you think that none of us Non's can even talk to others who haven't shared the experience we have had. I bet you that anyone here who has talked about this nonsense felt immediately devalued. They will not even comprehend it or comprehend why would we put up with this ___. Believe me I have spoken to others and they feel like "She is crazy just get her ass out of here" "WOW good riddens I would never even date someone like that". A quote on quote healthy person will not explore any type of compassion for them especially when it comes to dating which is exactly what we are discussing here. Maybe friendship they might but even that is far fetched. A quote on quote healthy person will toss them away and say Oh hell no she is crazy get her ass away from me.

Do you think the quote on quote healthy portion of society would even be reading on here? Would they be studying. Would they have felt the compassion when they learned they're partner had BPD(codependent term) aka is crazy(Normal term).  Would they even feel pain from getting these people out of they're lives? Seems to me that AO is exploring a part of himself that is unchartered.


Notice I said quote on quote because I honestly do not believe anyone is normal. I do not know what normal is to be honest especially being that it is based heavily on perception which can vary by culture or many of other factors. I do however know that the people who don't give a ___ about these people with BPD are not effected like we are.


-&+ combined together perfectly how do we do that? I do not know still trying to do it myself but I do know that with this overly compassionate ___ it leaves us vulnerable for recycles or running into another BPD or someone of similar nature and that is not whats up at all.

This is coming from a person who honestly still loves my BPD ex down to my core. However I want that ___ gone. I cried and cried when I saw her hospitalized and genuinely wanted her to get better. I have spent my last on this woman trying to help her get back on her feet. I was stomped on in return. Seems to me I was not versed enough in this (-) and too well versed in this (+).


Peace Skip

This is a good thing.   |iiii

We are publishing a new article on Codependency here.  Might be worth a read and it help a bit in understanding what is being referred to here as "extreme compassion".  

bpdfamily.com/portfolio-broken (https://bpdfamily.com/portfolio-broken)

Remember, codependency is a complex, not a disorder, maybe more of a symptom than a cause, a certainly recoverable in an of itself. It doesn't mean that you are broken - it means you have adopted some bad habits.  Of course the "why" may be a more complex question.



Can all three of these things co-exist in harmony in your mind?

Interesting article. Cruse's definition of codependency is synonymous with vulnerable narcissism.

I have had a think about this a bit more and I think for me the process has led me to seperate the reality of what is the 'person' that I know exists, a scared little 2-3 year old girl.  Then on the other hand the reality of the 'problem' that exists. 

How can any person with morals feel anger towards a small child.  Remember that essentially they are a small child emotionally with very bad relational habits.  Yes they are intelligent and charming and may have a great story that they spin.  All of those things made us attracted to them.  End of the day they are a small child and we were there new toy that they loved until the batteries run out. 

The problem, well its classified in the DSM as a list of 9 traits.  Essentially if you look at the behaviours.  The behaviours are destructive to those around them and to the individual as well.  There is a person their that keeps harming their relationships constantly and in doing so themselves as they never move beyond that all good and all bad.  Those behaviours will exist for life unless they look at themselves and make the choice to change.  This in itself is hard as to look at themselves what do they see? 

I beleive myself, no matter how I look at it I have to feel sorry for her.  She is a poor child trapped in the body of a young woman trying to survive with child like coping mechanisms.  It has to be horrible supressing all of that hurt constantly.  Not being able to open up and share that pain. 

I don't think it is extreme compassion but radical acceptance.  I still have anger, hell yes.  Do I still have love, yes?  Does that make me a bad person to have compassion and understanding of the situation.  No, it doesn't, it makes me a human being. 

I may not be totally healthy but to not feel anything, to suppress those emotions and that care myself would be unhealthy.  That is what BPD do constantly, project onto others and deny their own issues.  Re live a pattern. 

This is very insightful.   Thanks |iiii

 

I think at a point we are supposed to casually move on and detach at our own individual pace. I gather that the most important purpose of the Leaving Board is detachment. The 5 stages of detachment is our given road map. Our ex should occupy less and less brain space as days go by. This doesn't mean we still can't practice radical acceptance.

After the break up my ex was at 100% in my brain space. 10 months later, up until I filled for divorce she was at only 10% of my brain space, now she is at 20% because the divorce process is a trigger. I will be patient and work hard while the percentage drops daily hopefully until it reaches 0% or a trivial percentage.

I just feel it is very unhealthy to have them in that space long term as a romanticized BPD image. What happens when you meet a new partner and fall in love? I would think when we fall in love with the next partner the space of this BPD ex in our brain would go down to a very small amount. We then would have our new partner in our mind and love for them in our heart. When that happens are we guilty of not feeling sorry for our BPD ex anymore? If we aren't guilty then why now? Whats the difference? It's a matter of time.

Each of us have had different experiences with our BPD ex's. My ex physically  hurt me during cold blooded attacks. If I think of her too much in my brain as a BPD romanticized figure that is not healthy. Memories of this person equals at least some of the time of physical abuse. I can approach it as I will keep all the memories in my head and just have an (*)asterisk by them all which coverts it to "But she has BPD and she is a troubled person who I should always feel sorry for." So when a memory comes up such as being attacked in my sleep or any of the other horrible memories I can just take a breath and think "Well still she couldn't help it she has BPD and no choice and its important to feel sorry for her constantly".

If one of our ex's cheated on us with all the neighbors, I would imagine that feeling sorry for the woman would also bring the pain of remembering that she had no clothes on with each and every one of the neighbors on our street. How is that healthy? I guess some of us are stronger or wired differently. I am aware of my wiring or at least I am becoming more aware each day which is good and I am not wired to entertain constant compassionate thoughts towards a past abuser.

I might be one of those members... .sometimes.  I didn't romanticize BPD, but I researched the disorder (at his request), decided I "could handle it" (silly me) and put up with a lot of behavior that I hope would have been completely unacceptable had I not known.  I felt that he used his BPD as an excuse, I guess maybe I did too.  I am incredibly hurt and angry with him; but I do have compassion for him.  He's a hurt, scared little boy in a 50 year old man's body who can't figure out how to have what he wants most of all, a loving relationship. 

Very interesting thread. I do believe that my compassionate nature was a block to getting out of my relationship (even though the relationship was only months), I am no longer so troubled by this though for the future as I am aware that my exbf threw every possible hook and prod at this part of me.

Do I feel compassion for people who need to use abuse and have a disregard for others to try and meet their needs (that can never be filled anyway) ?  No not today. I feel more a sense of awareness about the disorder with no judgement towards him and an understanding that hurting people is a coping strategy for him.

It has to be recognised that having these feelings towards them isn't bad.  Its healthy as we are processing it all and working through the issues instead of suppressing the pain that exists. 

Imagine constantly keeping that pain we have all felt and throwing it onto all future partners and blaming them hence ruining all of our future relationships.  Constantly having that pain and having to control it as to express it and be true to ourselves would be unhealthy.  We would view it as a weakness. 

I am 6 months? Into the process since I had my breakdown.  Since I was a babbling mess and spent 2 weeks crying uncontrolably unable to understand what was going on.  Previous to this I spent 3 years hiding everything as when I expressed myself I got punished. 

Empathy is a skill we all have and putting up with the abuse, tolerating their distorted world view for so long puts a significant strain on any individual person.  We are processing that pain now.  The recognition that possibly they will never process that pain and will live with it forever is quite daunting. 

love this Skip! you always keep me on my toes and thinking. :)

very insightful linking betrayal trauma to the majority of members of the leaving board. this was definitely where i was at when i began my journey here. and Skip i agree that while in the stage of betrayal trauma, that people can "split" and react with anger. However, what Awakening One is saying, and something I wholly agree with, is that many people on L5 also "split" in the other direction--showing "extreme compassion", either denying anger or not able to create proper boundaries for themselves. this keeps them stuck and more susceptible to recycling or being further hurt by ex's in my opinion.

i don't think anger is bad when expressed in a healthy way. i don't think it is negative as long as its energy is allowed to do what it was meant to do, which is to establish strong personal boundaries and protect us. and i definitely don't think it is a lesser emotion than compassion. and as radical as it may sound to some, i think compassion can be just as dangerous and misused as anger can be to detaching and healing. there is a lot of anger on the L5 boards, and it can be argued that some of this is unhealthy. likewise, i feel there is at least an equal amount of misunderstood or misplaced "compassion". Compassion itself is beautiful, but when spoken of too early, when we really aren't detached at all, it can be a cover for people still attached to codependency, savior-ness, vulnerable narcissism, or simply a way to avoid seeing the r/s as it truly was. Both compassion and anger have to be understood. It's important to understand that Anger comes first in recovery though... .or it should, so that you have strong boundaries set and you feel safe. Then, when you feel safe you can feel compassionate without worry of being attached. this is my understanding. i feel having a healthy dose of anger actually protected me to the point that now i am developing compassion--that is both *real* and *detached*.

one thing i have definitely learned from these boards is how to have compassion. and i'm grateful to be reminded of this when browsing posts. i also tend to post most often to offer people strength as i feel i have a strong perspective. i tend to work with people's anger and explore it as i think it's a vital stage of recovery, rather than say simple "let it go"--every emotion is a gift with a message. including anger. sure, i've let go of tons of anger and glad i have, but before i did let go i *learned* from it. anger repaired my damage ego. helped me find a healthy love relationship. anger made sure i laughed at my ex's fake attempts to reconnect with me long after i'd gone NC. so now i can let go because these things aren't such a problem any more. but if and when i do run into toxic individuals again, it won't even take much anger to keep them away since i've honored it's message in the past ("stay away from toxic people".



AG, I consider myself "healthy", but obviously not perfect. I know this may raise eyebrows however i don't want to take too much of a tangent in the conversation (i've discussed in previous threads). So, just know that I feel that I was generally emotionally healthy before my xuBPD r/s, and I feel mostly healthy now. And I'd say the majority of the r/s i felt healthy, although towards the end and during the first 1.5 years afterwards i surely was not healthy or in a good space. I'm not really codependent, not much of a people pleaser, can't identify really bad FOO issues contributing to the r/s (i have other unsavory reasons :-)). So i will try to answer some of the questions you posed if you can believe i am relatively "healthy".

First, I think a mistake many codependent nons make is assuming that "healthy" people are perfect, that they don't make mistakes. As if someone healthy has never had her boundaries crossed ever, has never made any bad choices, or that they know immediately how to deal with toxic situations and people. They don't, or rather i should say, i didn't. This whole relationship was a big learning experience for me. Think about all the "healthy" people you try and explain your r/s to who don't understand at all or even believe what you are telling them--their ignorance means that a pwBPD would fool them initially just as they fooled you. Don't believe any healthy person who says they would never entertain being with a pwBPD when they know nothing of the illness and thus would never be able to identify it until it's too late and they were already emotionally attached. i don't think i experience the first abandonment episode, or unwarranted anger until at least 6-8 months into the r/s--many of my ex's r/s didn't even last this long--she behaved better with me at first for some reason.

Healthy people date pwBPD all the time--it's just that they may not be as susceptible to devaluing, be more hip to the games being played or more likely leave of their own accord (i did). I also have zero guilt for leaving. Although i experienced every ounce of pain during separation as other people who may be codependent, my anger was never self directed and I was able to see that I wasn't the cause of the issues much faster than some.

I feel like a quote on quote healthy person  :) and i read on this site too much! And while i feel like i may help someone here and there i know that i will need to do a cleanse soon and take (another break).

And regarding whether i feel compassion after learning about BPD--initially, no. not much at all. and i don't think it would have been too healthy in the very beginning for me to feel this way. she was still intent on punishing me and i was still too raw and attached. anger and gut instinct helped me to not be susceptible to her needs or manipulations. but now, 2.5 years out, yes i am developing some compassion. and it feels good because it's not forced. and it feels real because i don't want anything from her anymore. my anger made damn sure of that!