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 Things with BPDd have not gotten any better, she seems to be on a never ending downward spiral. I am getting progressively better at removing myself when she is raging. I have told her that I will not cursed at and I will not be subjected  to her vile nasty name calling, so everytime she starts I tell her the word boundary, which I explained in her lucid moments, means that you either stop that type of talk or I am leaving, when she doesn't stop, I get in the car and I leave. I do not answer calls or text messages from her while I am gone either.

I do not know if that is helping or not, but I am going to continue in hopes that she learns to communicate more appropriately.

We have had 2 bad raging episodes in the last week, the latest one on Sunday, I was unable to leave as easily on Sunday because I was sitting for the new grand baby. Once I got baby and baby bag ready to walk out the door, she pulled a vegetable knife from the drawer in the kitchen and jammed it into her wrist telling me she would slice it open if I walked out, she was quite manic, there was blood running down her arm, she had a wild look in her eyes and was actually literally foamy around her mouth.

I of course put the baby down and called 911.

Within moments she was lucid, she cleaned up the arm and put a bandage on her wrist, she washed her face and was calm, by the time EMS arrived she was in a normal state, and refused any medical treatment and denied having cut herself.

Once the EMS were gone she started in all over again, I had to call my son and insist he come home so that his baby was not being exposed, and so that she could get the attention that she needed and deserved.

I am currently trying to figure out what the best course of action should be, my main concern is for gs. I believe he should be in the custody of his father, who is a loving caring man and a good dad, but that is for the courts to decide not me.

at any rate, I am trying to figure out the best recourse, hopefully with minimal damage to anybody both mentally and physically.

when I said she could get the attention that she needed and deserved, I was referring to the infant, not my dd.

wanted to clear that u[.

Dear tristesse

What an ugly scene... .how hard this must have been on you. I am so sorry.

When my dd gets dysregulated I will try to remove myself from the situation and I have gotten in my car at times to get away. Sometimes this works but I encourage you to try and stay in the home and break this cycle because it is simply not possible to leave the house at any given moment. How can we stay in the moment and not help escalate the conflict... .think that is key. What I see at the biggest factor with this encounter in your dd need for control. I find there is always a power struggle of some kind going on... .the trick is how to avoid the power struggle. I have been taking a DBT class and it has really helped me... .I learned that sometimes when I am hoping to be supportive and helpful I am actually not validating my dd at the time. When she gets upset and I try to ask her to use her skills to calm down... .my dd sees this as invalidating so do you think by leaving the house you are not acknowledging her anger and hurt? I am just wondering if she might see it this way and maybe by using validation more it might help to difuse the conflict. It is still not right to take the verbal abuse but maybe you can validate before she becomes so upset next time.

I hope things improve for you all. It was good you called for help and tried to keep the baby safe as well.



We cannot force others to change



We can offer them a positive mental atmosphere where they have the possibility to change if they wish. But we cannot do it for, or to, other people. Everyone is here to work out their own lessons, and if we fix it for them, then they will just go and do it again. because they have not worked out what they needed to do for themselves. All we can do is love them. Allow them to be who they are. Know that the truth is always within them and that they can change at any moment.

Jellibeans

I will give you some more insight into the events on Sunday.

I was asked to care for the new baby for the day and I had agreed to do so, everybody in the house knew that was my plan for the day. So on Sunday when dd asked me if I would take her to the craft store I told her not right now, this is it, this is what sent her over the edge.

She was immediately angry because I said I don't know, instead of yes.

She did not need validating at that moment, there was nothing to validate.

I did not explain my reason, she already knew the reason.

If she needs to have control of the situations in her life, then she needs to work on becoming more self sufficient and independent. She needs to stay in therapy and she needs to try.

I am angry and upset with her. She was able to get control twice now when emergency personnel were called, she was able to straighten up and act decent for their benefit, so that tells me, she knows exactly what she is doing, and that she has more control than she wants me to believe.

I am going to continue to leave the house when she is name calling and swearing at me, that is a line will no longer tolerate being crossed.

I love this girl, I love her to the end of the earth, and I am not going to kick her out, so I guess I need to figure out the best way to live with her.

tristesse

That is an interesting observation... .she is able to hold it together when needed.

If leaving the house if the boundary you want to set then I think that is fine. I know I have done it many times myself but my dd is unable to calm herself.

In this DBT class they are stressing to keep the middle path... .that is what I am trying to do with my dd. Did you try using SET? I can see you are upset about not be able to go right now. I am sure you are excited about starting this new project. When the baby is done her/his nap then we can talk about going then.

Was there time for that? Did your dd feel she wasn't important? was she jealous of the attention the baby was getting? Could you have asked for you to help or participate in caring for the baby?

Tristesse... .I know it is not easy and I have not alway done or said the right thing. It is down right tiring and frustrating. At the last class we talked about having an opostite reaction... .so if you were upset and your responds was to get agitated or yell then try doing the opposite... .getting calm and quiet. For me this is helpful becasue my dd like to provoke a reaction... .she says little comments that are mean or just not true. I have found being quiet and calm allows her the time to rethinks her response... .she was very sorry and felt badly afterwards. I know it is hard when the verbal abuse comes... .but have you tried not engaging her? being quiet?

I hope these suggestions help... .I have had some tough times with my dd this summer and I am really trying to break the cycle... .not go through the same problem over and over agin with the same result. How do we extinquish these behaviors? The more we repeat these behaviors the more engrained they will be with our dd's.

I am sending a hug to you today... .I hope things improve.

Jellibeans

I am actually not as upset as one would think I would be. I did stay calm as I was focused a 2 week old baby, and they can feel the anger and stress.

There was no opportunity for SET, she was just plain and simply not going to hear anything that wasn't a yes I will take you.

I did not offer to take her after nap etc. because I had no intention of dragging this infant across town so she could buy some more brown beads.

I have tried multiple techniques in the past from being silent to arguing, the one thing I have noticed is that she will control herself when she wants to keep others from seeing the manic or manipulative side of herself, she will fly off the handle with me for anything, and likes to blame me for all of the woes in her life. All I ever have  to do is disagree with her or tell her no.

I am now working on me and whats best for me and my gs, she is going to have to step up and try to get better or she will suffer the rest of her life. I can't fix her, and I have finally accepted that, but I can fix me, and I can help myself, and I can try my darndest to protect her little boy.

I have been following your threads Tristesse and I know you have been trying hard to validate your DD where there is something valid to validate- and I can see that she is very triggered by your giving attention to any other family member.

I think if she has been pre-warned that major disrespect will result in you removing yourself you are doing the right thing.

It is very difficult for you to do this consistently as you don't know how far she is prepared to go to keep control- and she may be prepared to seriously hurt herself.

She sounds very unwell at present.

Personally I would try to continue what you are doing absolutely consistently whatever the response- but obviously it is a risk.

You can give validation and warmth at times when she is more settled.

Believe me I have been there and you have my absolute sympathy. Things are much better for me now-although there are residual problems.

Setting more boundaries resulted in no contact for a while but we are back in touch (a long story).

What outside help is your daughter getting from mental health services.

Does she have a case manager?

Do I remember you saying she was starting DBT, or have I confused her with someone else?

Does she show any willingness to engage with outside help.

I think you have to take the risk and keep the boundary-but I feel nervous even saying that

Dear Tristesse,

I'm proud of you!  This situation sounds incredibly scary and frustrating, yet you're keeping your cool.  It sounds to me like removing yourself from your DD's abusive language is working because you sound so much calmer in reporting this terrible scene. You're such a giving, caring soul!  I hate to see you going through this.  I'm glad you're not letting her use you for a punching bag anymore.  I thought Jellibeans had some great suggestions that are helping her with her DD, who also sounds particularly ill.


I can't help but wonder if there is some way to influence the courts in their custody decision.  Your BPDD sounds so ill and unstable, she hardly seems fit to care for her son.  That's easy for me to say, as here on this board, we don't get to see your DD in her good moments, and we don't get to see how good she is with her DS.  So the picture may appear more bleak to me than it probably is.  Even so, it does sound like your GS would be better off with his father.  I know you don't want to hurt your BPDD, but if your concern really is for your GS, perhaps there is a way to get Social Services involved so they can document how ill your GS's mother really is.  Does the father even want custody?

And, maybe if she loses custody of her son, it would provide the motivation for your DD to finally recognize SHE has a problem and SHE needs to start helping herself get well.  I heard someone post here that people with BPD often have to "hit bottom" before they are willing to turn themselves around.  In that context, maybe facilitating your DD to "hit bottom" as quickly as possible would be the best medicine?  (If I were in your shoes, I might want to privately call GS's dad and have a very candid conversation with him about what you believe is best for his son and why.)

I'm not suggesting you have to do anything towards that end, only to continue removing yourself from her drama and continue not enabling her in any way.  She'll eventually hit bottom on her own, one way or another.  Until then, you have my sympathy and support!

Hang in there!

Hi , I am new to this and not so sure if I am posting correctly to this thread.  I am writing under "quick reply" so hopefully it gets to "days of rage-update".  

Tristesse, reading your description brings back the many feelings and heartaches in me with my UD D21 when she was living at home a year ago.  There were so many times I have tried to calm her down by talking some senses into her which of course all end up escalating the situations.  Then I tried to set boundaries and leaving when she started to attack.  That was not working well.  She threw things at me when I walked away or chased me to my bathroom and banged on the door.  I ended up calling 911 a couple of times.  Not too long ago when I started learning about BPD, I realized she has many traits.  (She is not diagnosed despite 2 psych inpatient holding in the last 4 months due to thoughts of hurting her bf and herself.)  I have learned from reading that my boundaries were not working well especially at the time she is emotional and raging.  So setting my boundary and leaving her at these times was not working.  She basically does not have the ability to calm herself down, despite I saw her answering her cell phone calmly during such times, she was still in turmoil inside.  I feel her raging is a crying for help, or to be heard, although she does not know consciously what kind of help or how to ask for the help.  I have to be the one stay on with her to figure it out.  When I could not do that or there seems to be nothing valid to validate, I have learned to say that " I am very emotional and agitated at this time.  Let me calm down and I will be back in 5 or 30 min."  I stress it is my problem of getting emotional, not her problem.  It is easier for her to take since i am not accusing her.  This seems to have been working better for her to let me go.  It seems she watches the timer or something and would rage at me if I am not back at the exact time I promised.  I learned to set my timer so I get back at her exactly the time I promised.  It is an effort to do so.  But I feel I am building my credit with her by being on time.  It seems the more I do it, the easier it is for her to let me go when things get too much to handle and I want to set my boundary.  I am not sure if this helps at all.  I feel your pain and will keep you in my prayer.  

Jeallybeans, thanks for sharing what you learned at DBT classes.   It really helps!  

I signed up not so long ago and have been just reading.  It is wonderful to have such a place to share our experiences.  You all are so loving and supportive.  Thank you all!

Tristesse, I feel much love and compassion for you and the hard work and thoughtfulness you are putting into what is best to do in the moment as things unravel.  I understand your deep love for your daughter, too, as it reminds me of the love I have for my presently NC daughter.   Others have given some good advice and insight, which we all benefit from, and I appreciate it.

It has baffled me, too, to see the change that can come over our BPD-afflicted loved ones when outsiders show up.  I think it's one of the reasons things are going better for my DD at this time.  She is living with others whom I strongly suspect she has told all about her "evil mother" and as such, does not want to expose her behaviors to them. It helps keep her on the straight and narrow, which I fervently hope will create long term behavior habits even if it means I never get to see her.   But each situation is different and it's quite likely that if my DD had a child/infant I would not have made my boundaries so tough that she decided moving out was better.   

Big hugs to you and a spiritual hug to your DD, too.

Thank you everybody for your concern and support. I get great relief being able to share my story, and I get the best advice. Some of it has been ultra helpful.

There have been trying times recently, but the setting of the boundary has helped me to cope, I repeat that it is self preservation.

I am do believe she would have sliced all the way up her arm had I left , I think she is fully prepared to take her own life as she says daily that she hates it and she first-ever feel human.

She is in DBT , has only been 3 times, far too soon to see results.

I  have contacted cps in past, they have done nothing as they deem it not of necessity. So I will monitor and try to do damage control.

I think detachment is in part responsible for my new found calm.

Thank you all again for the support, advice and encouragement. I'll try to keep you all in the loop. I pray for you all daily, as I feel a sense kinship , so God Bless each of you.

I have been thinking about this a bit more Tristesse and I do think there is some element of this being an extinction burst in response to your new approach-hopefully if you remain consistent she will come to realise that you are not there to be abused.

My DD has been more civil to me since she sensed my increasing detachment and unwillingness to enter into drama and also that I wasn't going to be blackmailed over contact with my grandchildren.

It took a lot of nerve to remain consistent as I was worried about them and missed them.

I did offer a lot of validation as well as firmer boundaries.

The first reaction was extreme verbal abuse and an e-mail which was basically a character assassination-but over time the tools have been effective to a degree.

I still get lots of eye-rolling and for F***cks sake! but not extreme verbal and even physical attacks.

I think the behavioral element in DBT advocates withdrawing attention from unwanted behavior.

If the patient calls for help because they feel like self-harming they get support and coaching in using the skills-but if they call after self-harming or are abusive the response is much cooler and practical ie just arrange medical care.

You have a fine line to walk but I do feel thet you are on the right track  

Thank you Lever

I agree with you, extinction burst.

My dd is not handling this new firmer more resolved mom thing at all. I am trying to remain on this path and hopefully I will be strong enough to do so.

She has been relatively calm since Sunday evening, and has gone about life as if she hadn't almost slit her wrist, or as if she hadn't gone off the deep end causing much drama and stress. Honestly... .that makes me so angry.

I am not fooled by her calm though, I know she is going to rage again, I know she is going to be crazed and manic and out of control, and I expect it to happen in the next few days. This is in keeping with her recent weekly explosion pattern.

My goal is to stay firm in my beliefs and keep my boundaries in place while protecting myself both physically and mentally, and protecting and coaching my gs.

I have started to just hug and hold him telling him that I love him very much and trying hard to show him that he matters and is very important, when he is in-appropriate, like pinching for no reason that can be seen, I try to calmly ask him why he did it ( normally he just says because, or I don't know ) so I ask him then, do I ( or whoever he was mean to ) pinch you? Of course the answer is no, so I say then why would you want to hurt me? I usually end up then asking if he is angry or upset about something, sometimes he says yes, but mostly it's no. So then I try and explain why it is not ok to hurt other people, if he needs a hug, I will always give him a hug etc.  I have also started sitting him in time out when he doesn't heed a warning.

This upsets my dd, but I have told her that I will not have a 5 year old running the house, and discipline is not a bad thing, I am giving him a fair warning and letting him decide if he wants to continue with the behavior, he knows he will have a discipline if he does continue.

I believe she knows this is right, so she isn't fighting me on it too much. I also believe it relieves her of the stress and responsibility, and she is privately thankful.

at any rate, I am ever so thankful to you, I appreciate you and feel a sort of kinship to you.

I wish you the best and am sending you a hug just because I think you deserve it.

Thank-you Tristesse.

I had been sort of feeling that I wished I could somehow jump down the computer and take you for coffee and cakes.

Regarding grandchildren I think Carolyn Webster-Stratton's book, "The Incredible Years" is brilliant for managing behaviour issues.

It says its for up to age 8 but I think it would work in a modified form for up to age 12.

I have just had DD here with three under 6s for a week.

She is doing quite well but really yells at them. (very difficult not to interfere but don't want to end up with no contact again)>

Stay strong |iiii

Dear Tristesse and Lever,

I am struck by how calm and grounded you both sound in your most recent posts.  This is soo encouraging for me, as I still have lots of times in dealing with my DD when I forget the tools I've learned, or I feel my own emotions bubbling inside over my DD's behavior.  The more time I spend here on this site, the more I realize the journey for us (me) is to learn to manage our lives and feelings within the paradox of living with someone who is out of control.

By seeing how conscientious you both are as grandmas, you're also both making me appreciate what a good grandma my own mother is to my DD.  I can see that it is a struggle to find a good balance between providing support & positive influence and enabling & crossing boundaries.  You two seem to have found that healthy balance, even though it changes daily with a BPDD in the picture.  I'm so grateful my mom has found that healthy balance.  You're both such good grandmas, you make me feel lucky too. :)

|iiii

Healing Spirit, don't let the calm tone of my post fool you, I struggle emotionally every single day, I want to just lose control and beat my dd at times, Even though I know she is sick.

I am just much more resolved right  now, and praying every day for the strength to get through.

I pray for my friends on this site also.

Good luck to you

Likewise, healing spirit- I am working on it constantly, mindfulness is helping and I am not actually living with my daughter although the ripples of discord through the whole family are a constant challenge.