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Two years three months ago I filed for divorce. Custody issues have been dealt with (for now)so it is the division of property that is left. At the two year mark ( for the state I am in, after two years of separation I can be granted a divorce). a form letter was sent to h's L. They had twenty days to respond which on the nineteenth day h said I can have the divorce but he wants his legal option to settle economic issues. I said no to divorce till economic issues are final, because h would drag it on indefinitely . H has to pay me $175/mo in alimony that will end when divorce is final so that is my only ace card. Then we heard  nothing from h. My L wrote a letter asking what is it they want? Nothing. Five weeks ago my L sent a chart with what he says is marital and non marital property. After two and a half weeks I asked my L if he heard anything , he said no to give them time to prepare their case.  Should I just wait it out ?  I want to call my L to ask what is going on but I need to be very specific. If L sends another letter out to h's L, what can I ask to be in it ?  A few months ago and months before that I asked my L when is this going to end, his answer was that he cannot see my overwhelming desire for divorce and that h is not as bad as bad as some of his other cases etc.  Being assertive with my L didn't always work.

I asked if we could set a trial date. L said no, not until a settlement is attempted first and I would be the one paying for to because I have more money the he does.

I had a similar situation with my L's inactivity through this period.  Not sure if she was intentionally dragging it out, but it did ened up in one lost opportunity to settle, and an additional year on my settlement.  Seems you are further along.

I know in my State, PA, the "process" is ripe for being drug out and especially in my courthouse where the Masters do "nothing."  So you do need to push.  I had also pressed my L about setting a trial date at the onset.  She claimed that we needed to go through the "process" first, before requesting a court date.  I knew that this would be fruitful because at the time, my STBex was Pro Se and through three ED conferences had provided no financial documents for either side to work with.  I had asked how this was possible in the letter where I fired my L.

Anyway, push in some way.  A documented e-mail to your L, something to the effect, "Dear Mr. Lawyer, I have made my intentions known and I am again expressing my concern with the lack of closure with this case when all information has been presented regarding a settlement.  I understand that there may be steps that need to be negotiated with the court to arrange a trial date - what are these?  Knowing these steps, how do we most efficiently get through these steps to arrive at a trial.  Can we demand a trial be set right now, today?  My ultimate concern is having this process drug out another couple months only to arrive at an impasse and at that point have to request a trial date, and then wait again for the trial to end the case."

Make sure your L answers your e-mail.  Mine avoided mine and avoided giving me answers.     

I live in Pa too. If one party files for divorce there is a 90 waiting period. If both parties sign after that you can proceed. If one party refuses to sign the divorce papaers the other party must wait two years. At that point you can proceed with the divorce. Before the divorce can be finalized you must go through equitable distribution (ed) or division of the assets. I believe that either party can file for ed at that point. A conference before a master is then set. If an agreement id reached then a judge will sign the divorce within 24 hours. If an agreement can not be reached then a court date is set so a judge can decide. Usually the judge follows the masters recommendation.

Of course, during this time, either party can delay and drag things out.

I would figure out how your state works and figure out how to proceed. Once you have the rules of the game figured then you should be able to figure out if your lawyer is just letting things drag along to collect more money.

I had a bad atty and figured it out after spending lots of money. When I figured the rules out I talked to my atty. She avoided me. I stopped paying her. I then got a call. I negotiated a discount and got about 30 % off of what I owed. I called her out for what she was doing in a very controled manner. I then found another atty after talking to about 5. Things have worked fairly well since that time. The only difficulty now is that ex drags things out. I filed for a custody modification in July 2013. I finally have a court date for this Sept. It didn't cost me that much money because of the delays.

I would probably call his office and set up a meeting ASAP.

Then ask him for a timeline to finish the divorce, assuming the other side does not cooperate.  Ask for specific dates when each task will be done.  Make it clear that if those tasks are done on those dates, and done right, you will pay him, but if not, you will find another attorney who will get the job done.  Mention that you are also looking into how much of what you have paid you can get back, and that you are in touch with the state bar association to find out what rights you have.

If you can stay on good terms with him, great.  But remember that you are his boss, he is your employee, and he is obligated to give you the service you are paying for, which includes moving the case forward in a timely way.  Don't accept any double-talk or excuses.

Thank you , scrapps66, David and Matt !   Glad to know and not glad to know that my case is like others where the process is ripe for being drug out . Im going to take some of each reply to form an email to my L.   He does reply or calls me in a timely fashion. But you said it right , Matt, he has a lot of double talk and when I am done talking to him for 20 min. I have no new information.  So with help of new wording maybe I can get a more specific answer.  He has been very repetitive on going over information , I did speak up that we already did this and I said I paid him for this... .that made him upset that I was angry at him.  ( and I was only assertive not ragging BPD mad) We are too involved in the paperwork for me to fire him. Maybe he knows that he can save me money and he wants his share now.

At the moment mine is just the property distribution, I can't imagine over a year waiting for a custody modification.

Property distribution is important but pretty mechanical.  It should not take a lot of your lawyer's time - he should tell you what information to gather, and let you do most of the work.

When you talk with him, maybe it will help if you write out your questions in advance, and leave space for the answers - maybe just short notes not whole sentences - and if you don't get a clear answer, repeat the question word-for-word, til he gets the point.

"What documents do I need for the meeting Monday?"

"Blah blah blah."

"What I am asking is, what documents do I need for the meeting Monday?"

You don't want to interrupt him, but since you are paying for his time, you are entitled to keep him on track, politely:  "Excuse me - I don't mean to interrupt - but we need to get through this discussion by 8:30 and I only have a few questions I need answers to.  So what documents do I need for the meeting Monday?

Once the papers are filed for equitable distribution they set a date in front of a master. Ex's atty sent a large packet to my atty. I forget what it is called but it asks questions about assets, etc. The packet I received from ex's atty was ridiculous. The majority of it ( at least 80%) I simply answered NA since it had nothing to do with our situation. My atty then sent her atty the same exact thing.

My stbx had all kinds of nonsense in hers. She claimed I stole everything out of the house. I had proof she actually did that. She valued our assets at 1.2 million. That was not even close. I wrote my own counter based on ex's papers. I agreed with the valuation. My atty objected. I then explained my reasoning. I figured since I had solid proof she actually emptied the house I would agree to the valuation and all I wanted was half in cash. My atty laughed and went with it.

We had all the proof for a trial so ex had no idea what I had. During the conference ex attacked me several times verbally. I simply stared at the tan wall and said nothing. When it wasmy turn my atty simply handed a few of the pieces of evidence off of a big pile of evidence to fher atty. He explained what the pile was. Her atty took ex out of the room and we quickly settled at a 70/30 split. My atty said we could go to court and get 80/20 in my favor. Ex was still out of the room.  I explained to him and the conference officer that if we agreed today I would no longer be married tomorrow. I said it was worth the 10%. The conference officer was pleased since he didn't have to write up a recommendation. Within about 20 minutes after that we were done. The next day the judge signed the divorce order and I recieved it in the mail a few days after that.

We had an escrow account that was split by some percentage. I don't remember the number. Both of us had to go to the bank together so they could cut the checks. I got there first and we had already figured the numbers at the conference. It was off by a small amount because of the interest. I told the person at the bank to cut my check to the amount in the order and give ex the extra. It was under 10 dollars. Ex showed up about 15 minutes after that. The person explained what happened and ex ran out to her car to get a calculator ? I looked at the bank person and said as soon as she comes back in just give me my check and I am outa here. Ex came back in and started to make a stink about it to the bank person. I walked out as soon as the check was in my hand and never looked back.

I have what I plan to email, part of scrapps66 letter, but with that in front of me, I think I will call L tomorrow with a shortened version... ."hi L, it has now been five weeks since you sent the chart to h's L, what are the steps we need to take to get h's L to respond? ".   ( that is more specific than me asking why haven't we heard?)

If L says he can write a letter to h's L if I want, should I say yes and what can I request my L to say in it ?

David, interrogatories , I think is the word you were looking for. I completed those in 2012 and again in 2013. Many pages of useless information.

One way to organize work is a very simple list, "What When Who".

First, what are the specific tasks that need to get done?

Then, when does each task need to be done?

Then, who is the best person to get that task done?

So it might look like... .

 What                                  When              Who

 Gather receipts                     By 8/20            Whirlpoollife

 Get the formula                    By 8/20            Attorney

 Prepare the interrogatories     By 8/22            Attorney

You work this out as you talk with the attorney, and go over it at the end of the conversation:  "So I wrote down three tasks for  this week - I'll gather up the receipts by Wednesday, you will get the formula by Wednesday, and you'll prepare the interrogatories by Friday - is that right?"  It's key to get him to say, "Yes, that's right." or offer you some change;  if he doesn't buy in to the list it won't work.

Then if you set a time to talk again on Friday, for example;  and a few minutes after talking with him, you send him an e-mail with the What/When/Who list;  when you talk with him on Friday you can run down the list, and check off whether each one got done.  Peer pressure makes whoever didn't get his tasks done look bad, so next time he'll probably do better.

Keep focusing on the list - if something didn't get done, ask him for a very clear commitment - "So we agreed that you would get the interrogatories done by today, but it sounds like they're not done yet.  When can you commit to get them done?"  He says, "I guess by Monday." - "OK, so I'll write down Monday - will you have those done by the time the mail comes Monday, or will you send them by courier later in the afternoon?" - focus on specific commitments to complete tasks, and don't let up or let him change the subject.

This is a simple - almost remedial - way of managing tasks and teams - shouldn't be needed for an experienced professional but in my experience many attorneys are horrible at managing their time and keeping commitments, so you need to manage them very assertively and consistently.  Your lawyer will learn very soon that the easiest way for him to deal with you is to just get the work done.

Yes interogatories is the word. Why did you have to do two ? My ex's atty sent me the one stack of papers. Like I said before most of it I answered with NA. It was sent back to me to complete. I simply sent it back the same way as I sent it the first time. Never heard from ex's atty about it again.

Just remembered something. The interogatory asked questions about 401k and IRAs. My position was my retirement stuff was mine and I wasn't going there. Ex had her stuff and I wasn't going there either. During the conference ex's atty wanted info on my retirement stuff. I had answered in the interogatory NA for all that stuff. I already told my atty my position. In the conference , when her atty started with the questions about that, my atty replied that his client was not interested in going there and if it was pursued he would file form xyz. Apparently that was some form that required an in depth forensic accounting of ex's 401k all at ex's expense. Her atty backed down after that. If the retirement plans were in the millions I am sure that would have been the course we would have taken but it wasn't worth the expense ex would have so they backed down.

Where I live, all this has to be turned over - 401ks, IRAs, everything - all the information has to be on the table.  You can say, "But 65% of this money was accumulated before the marriage.", and then she only gets half of the 35% that was accumulated during the marriage.  But you can't refuse to turn the information over.

I called L. I asked if he had heard from h's L. No he hasn't . I then said that it has been five weeks since they received the property chart so WHAT are the steps that we need to take to get a response from h's L?

L's response was that since we have not heard from h's L is to appoint a master, who will hold a conference, from there to a trial if no settlement can be reached. He then decided for me to hold while he calls other L. Short hold.  Other L said that he had an appt with h but h canceled it. To give him two weeks more. My L asked if we should appt a master. Other L said no.

So two weeks I wait ,  but in 6 1/2 minutes I got an answer!

As for interrogatories , was same set but twice . When I first received them I had twenty days to respond.  They wanted info dating back to 1994, and besides banking and property,  who paid for what and prove it etc. I panicked and tried to have it done but that was not possible. Never sat down with first L to over it, she said to just answer the questions. I was able to get an extension but in meantime I changed L's. New L had to go over it with me because it was all new to him and he did not want N/A for an answer. Many days spent on it and  then proof reading and corrections. The box of pages got sent over to h's L. And back then there was no response. In meantime h's L passed on his case to one of his associates.

I didn't have interrogatories for the divorce, but did for the later case seeking custody.  Her L sent a long list of questions.  I answered as best I could, over 600 pages.  (Granted, I copied front and back including the pre-printed statement backs, so the count is a little inflated.)  It was frustrating, so we sent our own interrogatories.  Got ZERO response, totally ignored.  I wish I had told my lawyer to hold my response until her lawyer was ready to exchange with her response.  Yes the legalese mentions huge repercussions for failure to timely reply or for noncompliance but I've never heard of the horrible consequences ever actually being enforced.

My opinion, instruct your lawyer to appoint a Master.  Since there is no point in assumign there could be a settlement out of court, get the ball rolling on the equitabel distribution front.  I can also tell you from experience, that can get drug out too based on the Master's case load and the overall "f'd upness" of your courthouse.  This was my situation, go through a 19 month settlement process, 15 months of which I was living elsewehre and paying for the marital residence where ex resided with her boyfriend.  In that time period -  a whopping three conferences which were absolutley pointless and unproductive - 84yr old Master - only to arrvie at (despite several offers of settlement which went unacknolwedged by pro se ex) an impasse and a request for a trial.  THEN, it took two to get to trial and that was the longest wait I had for any court appearance.  This is Delaware County, PA.

So you can see what waiting gets you. Nothing.   

Yeah, it sounds like there are two big lessons here, which most of us can sympathize with.

One is, don't wait - contact your lawyer frequently and ask him what he has gotten done, what needs to be done next, and when he will get that done, and hold him accountable for it.  If his excuse is "The other L didn't respond.", then the answer is, either call the other L and get him to respond, or move forward by filing whatever motions - Master or whatever - to get the job done without any cooperation from the other side.

By the way, this pretty much proves that both your L and the other L have no experience with high-conflict people, or they wouldn't have assumed that your ex would cooperate.  When he didn't, they both sat on their hands, instead of knowing how to move forward without his cooperation.  So only you - of all those involved - really understand that your ex will probably not cooperate until he gets afraid, and that won't happen til near the end of the process.

The second big lesson is that you need to have a plan to get this done without any cooperation from the other side at all.  Courts often complete cases without one party doing anything at all - not even showing up or submitting the required documents - it happens all the time and the courts have a process for finishing the case anyway.  Your L should explain that process to you, and set off down that path, and let the other L know that if they want to cooperate, great, but if not, this process will go forward without any delays til it's done.  Then the other L will advise his client, "You better cooperate or you'll get a worse result."

Sometimes I am able to anticipate what ex will do. I am not 100% accurate but in the ballpark. I tell my atty what I expect and ask him what to do if that happens. In the beginning he would explain it to me and say that is unlikely to happen. However , we did have a plan discussed beforehand and when it happened that was the plan we followed. A few times of it going in that direction my atty simply expected things to go the way I expected. That does help.

Example, we have a court date this Sept. I expect ex to show up without an atty so she can delay. My atty is prepared with some evidence to show the boys do the majority of homework when they are with me, school starts around the same time, ex had the same atty for the last 6 years, the custody eval recommends I get more time during the school year. If she shows up without an atty I will have my atty ask for a temp modification of the existing order until we can have a hearing on the matter. On top of that I filed for modification last july (2013). That is over a year ago and I have all the evidence showing how she has delayed time and again.

Sometimes I have a few scenarios that I think are possible and we discuss each one. I try to be brief and he gets to the point quickly.

I also let my atty know what is acceptable to me and what is not. My basic plan is always focused on the kids. He knows I will not budge on those things.

Hi Matt

Love this - What When Who - so simple, I'm going to stick it on my fridge. My lawyer is very efficient and committed but I do sometimes forget what he's said and it will help keep me focused more than anything else.

However, I'm also going to try using it as a tool to nail down my 21 year old son who is as slippery as a fish when it come to task setting... .

The two weeks will be up today, or next Tues technically,  when I can ask for a DM to be appointed.

L said  wait the two weeks.

This time I plan to email my L so he will see it Tues morning. ( he is always in his office so he might see it sooner if I send it sooner). This is my draft, feel free to critique it.

"L,

Interrogatories were sent spring 2013 to other L. We heard nothing. Letters have been sent to other L since August 2013 concerning settlement. You have stated all ' financial matters.' We heard nothing. I waited patiently for the two year separation mark, only to wait another 19 out the twenty days allotted to hear that they want to settle financial matters. We heard nothing. In July the final draft of the marital/non marital chart was sent to other L. We heard nothing. After five weeks you called other L , he asked for and was granted another two weeks. We heard nothing.

L, do you see the pattern here?

I would like to appoint a DM since the other party is not cooperating with a settlement. Once an appointment is made I would like to know in detail the steps I need to take."

Sincerely, wp


I know my L has other cases he is dealing with so maybe if he "sees " mine vs hears it from me he will see the pattern. 

Maybe though since this the end of the two weeks I hear something.

Sounds like a good plan.  Maybe worthwhile calling him a few hours later to ask if he got your e-mail and what are his thoughts.

What's a ":)M"?

DM ,... divorce master.   Follow up call good thought, as L says he looks at email every morning and also says he hasn't looked at email... .

I have a program that tells me who opens my e-mails and when.  I find that some people open my e-mails, often more than once, but later act like they didn't read it.

If your lawyer knows that when you send him something, he is going to get a call on that subject within a short time - you might have to call him and then wait while he reads what you wrote - pretty soon he'll realize that an e-mail from you needs to be read and acted upon the same day.

Normal expectations in other industries but unfortunately not always in the legal profession.

What is the program called for emails ?

Signals by HubSpot:  www.getsignals.com/e339c?utm_id=e339c&utm_expid=69277952-28.CDDgrG1vT-aDnDElMI2LyA.4

Starts out free but then you have to pay to keep it working.

I did the follow up call today after had sent the email over the weekend.  I left a message, my L returned call within half hr. (His was in his office over the weekend too) After first saying he should be receiving something from h's L , then realizing how long it has been of not hearing, agreed to appoint a divorce master without telling the other side know.    All info that was presented to other side will get sent to the court and divorce master. He will give out a few dates and we pick one from there.  Surprisingly my L said he will motion for costs to be split, instead of just me, on account that we haven't heard anything to even start talks.  My L could not understand what I meant by letting me know what each step is that is next and possible outcome.  After I explained some more he understood. Everyday things to him is new to me.    So this week my L prepares what goes to court for divorce master, I sign and it goes in on Friday. 

Ask and you shall receive.

Actually the Scripture is more accurately translated in the active verb tense, "Keep on asking, and it will be given you." - Matthew 7:7

This seems like a really good example of taking the initiative and communicating well with an attorney.

One thing that speaks very highly for your L is that he called you back right away.  Lots of attorneys don't return calls in a timely way.  This shows he cares about you as a client and sees himself as responsible to you - a very good (and unfortunately not too common) thing.

It also sounds like you were able to get him to see that it has been too long without a response from the other side, and when he saw that he followed your lead and agreed to take positive steps - a motion to have a master appointed.

I'm not sure, but my guess is that the court will notify the other side, and they will get a chance to respond before a master is appointed.  But I like that you and your attorney are directing your efforts toward the court, and not wasting more time and money trying to get the other party to cooperate.

It's also pretty revealing that when you asked for the process to be explained, your lawyer didn't get that at first:  you and he are not living in the same world.  He thinks it's obvious, but it's not obvious to you (or to me or most other non-lawyers).  But that's OK, because you talked openly with him about your expectations, and it sounds like he agreed to explain things more.  (But you might need to keep taking the initiative on that - ask questions as things go forward - you'll learn more and more.)

I hope it keeps going well!

L called and left a message (I don't answer if kids are around). He said the inventory (marital/nonmarital property) has been filed at the courthouse, and he will prepare for the motion of divorce master. (Friday as that is done on certain days)

He added that if I didn't understand what he just said to call so he could explain it.

I didn't quite know how to take his last sentence but thanks to your responses I take it much lighter.  

Last Friday, a divorce master was to be appointed. I called a follow up call today because I haven't heard anything.  Well,   a master will get appointed this Friday, on account L forgot to do it last Friday. 

More evidence that your lawyer is not reliable and must be managed very closely.

With 20/20 hindsight, what if you had called him at 9:00 last Friday morning, and asked, "Is the motion ready and will you get it filed this morning?"  He might have answered, "Oh no - I forgot - I'll get to it shortly."  You call back at 11:00 and he says, "Well I started on it but another client called so I worked on her case.  But I'll do it right after lunch."

You ask him when it has to be filed and he says, "By 2:00." so you say, "Well maybe you could get it done first, and take it to the court to make sure it's filed in time, and then go to lunch." and he says, "Oh yeah - good  idea - I'll do that."

You call back an hour later and he's working on it.

You call back an hour later and it's done so you say, "Can you take it to the court and file it by 1:30 to make sure it gets processed today?" and he says "OK."  You call back at 2:30 and he's at lunch.  You call back at 3:00 and he tells you it got filed, and you suggest he call the court and find out if the judge has acted on it yet.  You call back and 4:00 and he tells you the judge approved it.

If he was a professional who knew how to manage his time, you wouldn't have to do all that.  Since lawyers have a lot of education and they're usually very smart, we assume they all have good judgment and can manage their time well.  But in quite a few cases, that doesn't work.

I think you will have to manage him as if he was a very smart 10-year-old.

Good news , I sent an email to both my L ,  and his secretary. A motion has been filed for a divorce master.

Separately, at the  same time h was granted by the judge for another 120 days to respond so he and his L can investigate my assets and get the house appraised by their own appraiser. I had it appraised already.   I pay the mortgage. There is nothing hiding , everything was presented in detail.

My L got the 120 days down to 90 on account they have not responded at all when my information was given to them some time ago.

Also h is taking me back to support court for a modification in child support / alimony.   I currently get 400 in c/s and 175 in alimony and my L had said the 175 would end when divorce is final.

My L said we will still keep the appointment for the master.  What date that is , is to be determined.

All this , I say really?

Im using my topic here to continue... .

So after receiving the request for modification in support we received a settlement proposal.

Some of the highlights include but not all ,

he wants the house and appliances free and clear.

(I am currently in the house, I have been paying the mortgage , I paid for the down payment , appliances (old) improvements.

He wants both tax exemptions for kids.

He wants $$k of my inheritance referring it as equitable distribution.

He wants any alimony to either spouse to be waived , meaning he owes me nothing.

I "receive" the contents of the safe deposit box. ( stuff that was mine long before marriage that i hid from him) and other items that were mine to begin with.

I receive the marital portion of my share of my family's business that sold. *

We did not counter the offer yet.

The modification for support got delayed by h as he added on to it that he not only wants a modification in support but he wants support from me.

*he plans to use the capital gain from the sale of my family's business as an increase in income for me.

That is why he so graciously said I can "receive" it.

H had filed for modification in support , but no hearing at that time ,  a year ago, so he plans to have the support changes retroactive.

This capital gain is a one time deal from last year taxes.  There is no increase in my actual income.

Kind of hard to follow but the entitlement is all thru it. To be expected. 

Stressful for sure.

From another thread of mine , on the phone call issue, I emailed h asking him not to leave voicemails for the kids, that they (voicemails) are not necessary. He reply was a question mark plus that he keeps them short.

He continues to leave voicemails.

It sounds unlikely that there can be a settlement, but if you make a good proposal that can have a few advantages.  First, it will show the court that you are trying to settle.  And second, it may be the basis for the court's decision.

Also, if there is a good proposal on the table, it's fairly likely that the other side will come to the table very shortly before trial.  (My wife decided to settle the day before our trial was scheduled.)

My suggestion would be:

If you want to stay in the house, put that in your proposal.  Come up with a way to split net assets so you keep the house but net assets (assets acquired during the marriage minus debts accumulated during the marriage) are split evenly.

Your inheritance is yours by law (at least in my state - check to make sure).

Alimony should be determined by your state's guidelines.

No reason to offer him a better deal than that.  Do the work to put a sensible, balanced proposal on the table, and let the other side respond, but if they don't respond in a constructive way within a week or so, prepare for trial.

I am getting pushed from both sides to settle prior to the support hearing.

My L is out of the office for a couple days but I did leave a message asking what is his reasoning for this.

Any thoughts as to why?

Of course , if I give a counter proposal , it doesn't mean it will be accepted by h.

So make a counter agreeing with everything he wants that you also agree with. Then figure out a way to turn the other thiongs to your advantage.

Can you agree to receive the marital portion of your share of the family business and also state that is excluded as an increase in income and it is to be considered a one time thing or something similar ? 

Lots of attorneys have never taken any class, or even a one-day seminar, in how to negotiate.  And they don't have to live with the settlement - you do - so they can view any settlement as a good thing and every day without a settlement as a bad day.

I think you are right to ask your attorney what his reasoning is;  maybe he has a good reason to want to settle before the hearing.

A couple of questions you might discuss with him:

* If you settle before the hearing, what will the agreement say?  Is it based on a proposal made by the other side, or will you and your attorney draft the proposal?

* Maybe make a little chart (or at least in your head) showing what the advantages and disadvantages are for settling before the hearing or after.  See which looks better, or if they look the same.

* What is the outcome of the hearing that your attorney expects?  What is the worst outcome that is at least somewhat likely, and the best outcome that is somewhat likely?

Sometimes we ask an attorney questions like these, and we don't get straight answers - lots of talking but no information.  Be persistent - ask the same questions again and again if you need to, to get clear answers.  Then state those answers back in plain English - "So what you're telling me is that ... .- is that right?", until he says, "Yes, that's what I'm saying."

His job is to explain his thinking and the law to you - present you with options and advise you which option is best.  Your job is to work with him til your understanding is good enough, and then decide which option is best, and give him clear instructions accordingly.  "OK, I understand now.  Based on what you have told me, the best option for me is X.  Please proceed accordingly."

Most cases, even some high conflict ones, do result in settlements.

In my case... .

• 2008 Final decree was a settlement - but not until 5 minutes before trial!



• 2011 Change of Circumstances was a settlement - I became Legal Guardian but ex got child support



• 2013 Majority time motion ended with a decision, NOT settlement - I got majority time during the school year and therefore ex lost child support - I wouldn't settle since ex offered next to nothing and basically nothing was negotiable

It's very likely a settlement (1) where your ex would be the least bit reasonable and (2) with terms you could live with won't be possible until the last possible moment.  Or maybe not even then.


Understand that there is always pressure to settle, lawyers are used to settling cases, they expect it.  However, does this mean your lawyer isn't prepared for a trial, that it is outside his/her comfort zone?  Mine put me under pressure... .He was worried the magistrate could decide to keep the order roughly as is, with ex having custody and me as alternate weekend parent, despite the custody evaluator's recommendation.  He put me under pressure, settle or risk either gaining all or losing all.  So we settled for Shared Parenting but I told ex my #1 condition was that I be Residential Parent, I told ex it was that or else let's start the trial.  Both lawyers insisted it meant nothing other than which school son attended but I knew otherwise and within a couple months - 5 weeks before the school year ended - son's school kicked mother out and I had one day to register him in my school.

The second time the GAL recommended what she saw as the fix.  I knew it wouldn't work but my lawyer said it was a partial win and if we didn't settle then likely the judge would go with the GAL's recommendation anyway.

The third time GAL was even more favorable for me and ex's offer was entirely ridiculous so we let the magistrate decide after a 2 day hearing.  It was mostly a win and I really think it is workable.

So don't fret over having to learn how to say "No!"  After the first few times it does become (a little) easier.  Keep firm boundaries, if a clause violates or pushes one of your boundaries, it's okay to push back or say No.  (Remember, ex knows very well how to say No and even make you feel guilty while doing so.  So don't feel guilted or obligated.

Beware the F.O.G. = Fear, Obligation, Guilt.

FD makes a really good point:  Many of our cases settle "on the courthouse steps" - mine settled less than 24 hours before the trial was scheduled.

This is not true for "regular" divorces, only for "high-conflict" divorces.  William A. Eddy writes about it in ":)ivorce Poison", by the way.

The reason this is important is that if you try to settle sooner - which is what two reasonable people with reasonable attorneys would do! - you probably won't be successful - no matter what you propose, the other party won't agree, because people with BPD like to fight.  And by trying to get a settlement, you may weaken your case - you'll make concession after concession, and the other side won't respond in kind, or will make concessions and then take them back.  As a result, the settlement will be less and less favorable for you, and it still won't get done soon, because the other party needs or wants to fight some more.

When the fight is over, and both parties can disengage, you will be happier, with less conflict in your life.  But the other party will probably be less happy, because people with BPD thrive on chaos and conflict.

As the trial (or some other event that the person with BPD fears) gets closer, the person with BPD is likely to want to settle, and his lawyer will be advising him to settle rather than face the cost and risk of a trial.  That's why so many of our exes settle very late in the game - when the only alternative to settling is a trial very soon.

So... .that means your ability to get a good settlement is likely to be better as the trial gets closer.  Trying too hard to settle too soon is likely to result in a bad settlement for you.

I'm not saying that you should be unwilling to negotiate in good faith;  your husband and/or his lawyer may be an exception, and they may be willing to come to a fair agreement today, or next week, or the day before the hearing, or the day after the hearing.  It would be interesting to know what your lawyer thinks about this, but if he has no experience with opposing parties who have BPD, be careful - he may not understand this "settle on the courthouse steps" dynamic... .

I appreciate all the input and advice, its just what I need to study, think and write out.

The support hearing was separate from the settlement . A master had been appointed for the division of property but no date set.   They wanted more time for discovery, got it then to my surprise a proposal came in. At the same time, or just before, h set a hearing for modification in support.  Then I got a notice , that was filed with the courthouse, from the support office that h wants support from me. Also, he added his first file of wanting modification , from Aug. 2013.  He was pushing it to be retroactive to that date.

My L did call back, he said h's L wants to settle everything now... .ok what is everything? ... .h wants to

settle, not only division of assets but child support , spousal support, and division of assets. All at once and before the scheduled support hearing. 

I asked L about c/s. that I thought that was clear cut calculations . He said no there are many that come up with a plan that does not involve the support dept. I liked going through support dept because they hold consequences if h doesn't pay.

I asked my L too that after all this stalling , on h's part, then asking for more time before a master ,

then taking me to support dept, why the rush for all now.  My gut feeling, or  my-issues, I question why.

L had no answers, he said there can be a settlement that is fair. Maybe not what I want but fair. 

(I 'm done being fair to h) . It's my L that I have to watch out for.  Overall he is good, and has been in the business for awhile, but he doesn't know h like we do.

I have about a week to work on this myself, before meeting with L .

I recall shopping for a camera flash many years ago.  I didn't have much money and went from store to store.  Finally I found one that was powerful and the price was tempting but it was clearly an older model.  Then haggling kicked in, I still wasn't convinced and was about to leave and the guy said, Take it or leave it, I won't do a deal if you leave.  Yes, I bought it, it worked for years, but I felt bad about from that day forward.  I learned a lesson that day, don't buy under pressure or ultimatums, you may come to regret it, if only for the pressure.

So, you feel under pressure now.  It doesn't feel right and rightly so, you don't know the details, too many variables are in play.  There is generally no harm in saying, once you've got the data, "Let me ponder your final offer and I'll get back to you."

If you walk into negotiations thinking you have to say yes, then you have the wrong outlook and are at a distinct disadvantage.  You always have the right to say, "Sorry, I can't accept that" and walk.  Never forget.

One way to analyze this stuff is to make a list of the key issues - not every little thing but the issues you care most about.

You might write, for example:

Issue - child support.

Dad says - None.

Mom says - Same as now.

Issue - custody.

Dad says - 50/50.

Mom says - Mom primary, Dad every-other-weekend.

Etc.

Once you have identified the key issues, you can group them according to which issues are closely related;  in some cases, two or more issues should be decided as a package so the agreement will make sense.

Then you can think about which of the issues are most important to you - there might even be some where you just aren't willing to budge, even if it means going to trial.  Others might be more flexible - maybe you're willing to split the difference.

You and your attorney need to be on the same sheet of music on this.  You can discuss the issues and explain to your attorney why you think each of the items is best for you and for the kids.  The better your attorney understands your underlying reasons for each item, the better you can work together to negotiate a good settlement.

Along the way, if you can include some stuff that would be nice to get, but you don't really care much, that can be useful, because it gives you some concessions you can make so the other party will feel like he is winning.

I would not suggest you make any effort to negotiate an agreement - don't even bother scheduling a meeting - til there is an offer on the table which will serve as a starting point for the discussion - a written offer which addresses most of the key issues.  Doesn't matter who presents it to the other side since it's just a starting point - a framework for the discussion.  But without that framework, a lot of talking (which is expensive when attorneys are involved) can produce nothing.

He might be triggered by something.  Did he get an extension on filing his tax forms and he has to pay up in mid-October?  Was he told it's now heading back to court?  Some other event?

Understand the vast difference between you.  You are hesitant to ask for more than what is reasonable and fair, in fact probably you're tripping over yourself trying to be overly fair.  Maybe peer support has enabled you to ask for the moon but still you're ready to settle for a slice of the cheese.  He, on the other hand, has no qualms about asking for the moon, sun, stars and every galaxy within 10 million light years - and expect to get it.

So although you're overwhelmed by his extensive list where literally everything is twisted to his benefit, that's his entitlement speaking.  Also, even if you chip away at the list, he still expects to strut away as the huge winner.

Quick question, he's working right?  Is his earning potential greater, lesser or equal to yours?  If you have the minor children the majority of the time then he would pay child support.  If it is equal time and your incomes are roughly similar then child support might be iffy, it all depends what the CS calculators include.

As for him seeking reversal of CS and retroactive as well, then, besides his entitlement shouting, it depends on various factors.  I had to pay 2 months retroactive CS back to when I filed for divorce but that was in part because there was no prior order.  If you now get CS and he wants it repaid and you pay instead retroactively, I would expect the order now would not to be modified retroactively.  (However, I am not a lawyer of course and don't even know your state, state laws vary.)

I'm figuring all these demands stem from the trigger that you got an inheritance - is he contesting the inheritance aspect? - and he feels entitled to demand and grab as much as he can.  Most (but not all) states have ruled that inheritances are not marital assets, though any portions that are mixed with marital assets might be deemed to have morphed into marital money status.  I presume you've been smart and kept most or all of it in accounts separate from any joint accounts with him?  Then the outcome largely depends on your state's view of inheritances.  You need legal advice about whether he can do that snatch-n-grab or not.  If that's an unanswered question then you're going to be weak going into negotiations.

Did I already state this is his entitlement shouting?   Conversely, if you're now seen as rich and him seen as poor, then you may not get much of a gender preference/deference from the court.

Demanding house free and clear?  Only if your equity is adjusted to your benefit elsewhere in any settlement.

Demanding children as deductions every year?  No, either alternate years or split the kids (with you taking the youngest ones so you get deductions longer  ).  Be very sure to use proper IRS forms, I think it is Form 8332.  If you have a settlement or court order that might or might not be acceptable to indicate the details have to be spelled out and the SSNs listed.  Apparently the IRS is very unwilling to be nice and bend their rules.  For example, it has ruled that stating the years when non-custodial/majority parent DOES NOT get to use child exemptions is not enough, it has to state when non-custodial/majority parent DOES get to use child exemptions.

Demanding inheritance in any way, shape or form?  No, unless state law allows it.  The capital gains from the inheritance?  I don't know the legal status but I bet he tries to 'Guilt' you into doing it.

Can he use one-time capital gains as basis for modification of support?  I don't know but if it is possible, then you must include verbiage that it can be modified from year to year for significant changes, probably include that the minimum figures for each of you are what you are capable of earning (so that he doesn't quit working and demand a recalc).

Be aware that any rules you may agree to probably apply to you as much as to him.  So ponder whether any clauses to your benefit now could later come back to bite you in the years to come.

Yeah, I think this has been said before, but to be very clear:  There are structures in place to decide lots of this stuff, and it's probably best to use them, and not to wander off into arbitrary negotiations.

Child support - in many states there is a worksheet provided by the courts - their guidelines, based on how many days the kids are with each parent, and what each parent makes.  No reason to negotiate, just do the math and that's who will pay how much.

Alimony - similar but it's only about the length of the marriage and who makes how much.  Fill out the worksheet, do the math, and that's who pays how much for how long.

Division of assets - in most states, the guideline is that you add up all the assets accumulated during the marriage (excluding what either of you brought into the marriage - you each keep that) and subtract the debts accumulated during the marriage (again, each party keeping the debt they brought).  Divide by 2, and that's how much value each party should get.  If some of the assets are things that can't easily be cut in half - like a home - you move things from one column to the other, til the columns add up to about the same.  Or you sell something and split the money up to make the totals come out equal.  Mostly math, not negotiation.

If the other side is proposing things that aren't more-or-less in line with the guidelines, you should probably just say, "Your proposal regarding child support is not OK.  We'll stick with the state guidelines - see attached." and end it - no need to pay two attorneys to spend hours debating it - just use the guidelines.

I think his entitlement in this backed him in a corner.

I don't like mixing the child support in with division of property. I'd prefer the state guidelines but he is unpredictable with payments. So I added up the c/s for both kids till they come of age , excluding medical, then out of the marital assets that would be due to h, subtract the c/s. That way I would have it up front, and he "wouldn't have the monthly burden of paying it. "   

FD it might be the taxes. We filed separately, but i remember his accountant sending a formality letter stating that they filed an extension on his behalf.

He is working and makes more than I do. I got the imputed income, which is about half of his. I am working but I didn't reach that limit yet.

Thanks for the info on the kid exemptions and taxes.

I kept the money separate , except for what went in to the house . I have the paper trail , though , on where the money stemmed from. Which was one of the questions in the interrogatories. 

I was ready to show the divorce master that information, if that was where this was going.

I think he asked for so much as to try to scare me to make me compromise , which would end up to where he wanted to be in the first place.  I would like to have it  of what is, what is not marital asset, offer a percentage of marital and stick with it. But I am in an equitable state... .