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I'm wondering if anyone else experienced extreme denial, bordering on amnesia, with their BPD significant others?

In my case, she could literally "not remember" events where she behaved atrociously. Whether it was raging at me after having had too much to drink, apologizing to me the next morning, and then six months later having absolutely no memory of said events, and accusing me of making them up. Another time, she and her family were tearing me to shreds within earshot of me, again she manages a half-hearted apology immediately afterward, then a few months later, claims she has no recollection of any of it. And, she truly defended this position with every ounce of herself.

So what is this?... .it seems like something much deeper then denial. A kind of cognitive distortion that borders on deeply disturbing.

They are able to summon some kind of mental block,  but it's all a facade,  deep down they know what they are,  mine occasionally would admit she was a bad person, and she did mean it. It was hard for me to hear but I understand it now.

A quote from Gunderson and "emotional amnesia".


https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=70884.0

Mine raged at me one time. Called me the C word a few times then threatened to have a couple of her friends come over and give me a kicking. When I reminded her of this the other week she said I was lying and must have Alzheimer's as she couldn't remember it and why would she say something so stupid as that.

I don't know whether its because when they are in a rage they say things without thinking so they actually don't remember it or whether they are just in denial and don't want to face what they did.

All too familiar. Mine hid things and then looked for them and couldn't find them. Important things like my freaking wed band that she "found" in the bottom of a vase full of flowers. Gee how it get there? I have no idea, you must have put it the. I have dozens of these incidents over the last year. I had to leave as I was scared to death of what might happen next: gee, I didn't know the gun was loaded?

It amazes me how mine had the most fantastic memory for some things but not others. She could remember names of people she only met once but couldn't remember where she had left her car keys.

I suppose it could be to do with getting caught out. Objects cant catch her out so they hold little importance whereas people are dangerous so you have to remember them. Just a thought.

I have had this happen too. Incidents that must have etched themselves into my xwives memory, a few months later she claims she has no recollection.

Still, she never forgets and never forgives. She ranks life events by strength of emotion. I don't buy the amnesia thing. I think it's more like they decide not to remember, i e "theatre amnesia".

I have even seen selective amnesia in clinical descriptions of BPD, which I think shows how duped or uncritical health professionals can be when deal with pwBPD.

Yes it has. She would say something e.g. swear at me and then she wouldn't accept that she said anything. Then she 'd say that I swore at her. She would say that I told her to f*** off when I clearly hadn't. She was so adamant about what she said and what I said that I started losing my mind and questioning reality... .What if I did say something and I was the one not remembering? At the time I had also discovered BPD and I started wondering whether I was the one having BPD instead. It was absolutely CRAZY! I asked my T about it. I said do you think I am the one who has BPD? He was absolutely certain that I didn't - Maybe traits of schizoid/schizotypal he said but not BPD. I also called my previous therapist asking her to tell me if she ever thought I had BPD. Even now that I am typing this I have doubts. Go figure. That's what denial and gaslighting does to you.

Oh yes!

Mine forgot where things were constantly, it was a joke between us. But she remembered every word anyone ever said to her precisely and forever.

What is gas lighting?

www.counsellingresource.com/features/2011/11/08/gaslighting/

This stuff has gone on with my wife for years.

She would say something sexually vulgar to someone else and if I called her out on it, she would deny saying it.  Yet, she would accuse me of cheating on her, when clearly, I told her about her friends making sexual advances on me.

Just a few months ago we were at a family dinner, and my wife told her parents that the delivery guy for her store told her that she was "sexy."  She acted very excited about it.  What the heck?

When I said something to her about it, right after dinner she denied that she said it!

Oh man - you just reminded me the worse day of my life. My ex was flirting with this guy in front of me and the guy wanted to find out if we are together he asked her a couple of times and eventually she replied that we had just met. I couldn't believe my ears. When I confronted her afterwards about it she denied it at the start and then paraphrased it. Betrayal followed by gaslighting = I eventually broke down after a few days and had to take 2 weeks sick of work.

It often amazes me how incredibly similar many of our experiences are. For certain, we and each of our relationships with our BPD exs are unique; nonetheless, the similar patterns are arresting.

Freedom 33, you described my experiences almost exactly. Indeed, my exBPDgf was (and still is) convinced that I have BPD. No matter how many times our couples therapist told her it wasn't true, to look at her own behavior, to stop blaming, externalizing, etc. etc., my ex's need to pathologize me was compulsive. Projection, yes, though still stunningly sad, nonetheless. It was when our relationship was finally over, that our CT sat me down and pointed out all of my ex's behavior patterns - "splitting," "projection," "devaluing," "blaming," etc. - it was like a BPD roll-call. She also challenged me to understand how I contributed to this; put another way, why I enabled certain behaviors, and allowed my exBPDgf to "define" me. Freedom 33, don't allow her, and her distortions and gaslighting to define who you are as a person, or your reality testing. For me, this was one of the most pernicious parts of the last five years, and I have to accept the fact that I allowed this to happen. It's the only way to prevent it from happening again (I hope).

As for losing things, but having an iron-clad memory for every time she perceived someone had wronged her, with emotions so strong over something five years ago that it was as if it happened yesterday, that describes my exBPDgf. She lost everything - I mean everything, at least once a day - keys, phone, credit cards, glasses - if I pointed any of this out, or tried to have a place for "important stuff" (that is, I emptied a drawer in our kitchen so that we just put all this stuff there), she'd accuse me of being controlling, demeaning, you name it.

I have to share briefly what brought me to post this last night. So, our 5-year relationship is over. Just sold our house, signed off on financial settlement, etc., and we had to sit down and chat about dividing up some of our personal items. Well, before you know it, she's demanding that I should "drop to me knees and beg her for forgiveness" for my "abusive behavior" during the relationship. I deployed every ounce of learning from this site, my T, our previous couple's therapist, and others. I didn't respond, other than to say we each have our own perspective on the breakdown of the relationship, and that we each did things we weren't proud of and it's time to move on. The calmer I was the more she became out of control, particularly when I said we each behaved in ways that were hurtful to the other.

To cap it off, in one of her classic maneuvers, she storms out stomping her feet and waving her hands in the air, frantically saying how "misunderstood" she is. It was so regressively childish that it was, at once, deeply sad and terrifying, to watch.

Oh, and for a real-time example, just found her iPhone... .she left it sitting on my coffee table! Now will have to negotiate getting it back to her. Good grief.

I am going through that as we speak... .

Folks from this forum have given some good advice.

Check it out and good luck with it!

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=232094.0

It is a very powerful condition and one very difficult to "cure". This fact is often underplayed on site because the focus is (of course) healing relationships and making families stay together.

But looking back, *nothing in this world* could stop by wife from attributing all her troubles to me. She was in therapy on and off for ten years, and I know now that all she did was to sit around talking about me. I know she was told by therapists not to talk about me but to focus on herself, but she only found new ways to talk about me  by proxy. One way was to argue about why she was "forbidden" to talk about me.

Therapists give up... .I give up.

I had to be removed, because she will go on like this until the day she dies.

Her brother went on like this until the day he died. He was in his early 40s and barely on speaking terms with anybody in his life because in his eyes everybody had deceived or abandoned him in some way.

You may be fooled into believing that they could change because they're so keen to talk and argue, but if they're like my wife they're just wasting your time. All the talking is just to convince themselves and to win time I suppose.

Haha yes! Mine forgot where she left house keys, shoes  and what not but would remember everything i said.

Yes, my uBPDh completely denied abusing me or saying such mean and hateful things. He will actually turning things around and accuse me of saying them. The last incident where he hit me last week, first he claimed it never happened, now he claims I hit myself. In the beginning when he starting the physical abuse, I really thought maybe I had remembered things wrong, so I started keeping a journal and taking pictures of things he did. Now I know I am not the one who remembers it wrong, but I wonder, does he really not remember or is this a tactic to convince himself it didn't happen because of the shame. IDK but even showing him proof, and letting him listen to a recorded conversation  him verbally attacking me doesn't seem to jog his memory.

I always wondered this myself. Did she know it but simply wasn't able to acknowledge it to me or she was completely blocking it.

I think the former was the case. But as they say with pwBPD feelings are facts. It doesn't matter what the truth is or what was said.

We were going to couples therapy and she would say to the therapist all these stories of what happened between us that it was shocking. I couldnt believe my ears and I was thinking 'man we have completely different versions of reality here, this is impossible!' That was a bit of an eye opener. At times I was getting desperate in the sessions. It was unbelievable how different she would see the world.

What would help me sometimes was when she would say something via texts and then deny it verbally. I would go back to the texts and look at what was exchanged (iphone goes way back). Usually (not always because sometimes in my panic and anxiety I made mistakes too) my reality was confirmed. This was a massive relief. This helped me to keep at least one foot in reality.

My xwife has been acting acting out towards our daughter. She has not been able control her temper and her therapist actually considered a report to the social welfare office because of this.

When we began talking about separation my wife claimed she could not remember any of these incidents, which was absurd considering she herself sought helt from the authroities because of them and she has discussed at length in therapy with me and other people.

It became obvious that she could draw the "amnesia" card at any time. And if there are just two witnesses (as there are most of the time in a marriage/relationship), the "amnesia" card becomes a sanctioned way of lying.

If she would ever cross the line and hit our daughter, I know for sure she would not remember afterwards.

A person that can deny anything that has happened at any point is a dangerous person, propably without knowing about it herself.

On purpose NOT remembering is just as bad as making stuff up that did not happen.

The times that he has denied saying certain things that he had written via text or email, I have on occasion shown him the text or email, right there in black and white, and he somehow manages to convince me that he meant something totally different or I must have written it myself to try and trap him. It is emotionally exhausting to deal with the childish behavior. He rarely apologizes. When he does admit to something, it's always because of my bad behavior... .I forced him to throw a glass of water on me because I needed to col down, he had to drop me off on the side of a busy road and leave me to walk a mile and call a friend because it was too dangerous to ride with me, he had to hit me because I was saying things that aren't true... .the list goes on and on. This is the life of parenting a 3 y/o grown man.

This is one of the reasons I only comminicate with my xwife by text now. No revisionism possible. She is so frustrated, which only shows how much she misses using the "amnesia card", or at least having the possibility.

Also, in text she can't get away with confusing word salad to end a conversation.

iPhone conversations are great!

My exgf hardly ever emailed or messaged me. Especially when it came to information such as dates and times. She would rather do that vocally. I insist on everything being written now so theres no denying it. Also when it came to informing me of things it had to be done face to face so she could gauge my reaction.

As  couple of people on here noted, they never seem to forget your mistakes.

The worst part of all of this is the frustration.  I don't know about you all, but it is so hard to go through day to day life wanting to communicate with your spouse and get nothing back at all.

Then, eventually I, out of frustration say something stupid and things seem to get worse because they won't let it go.

I 've been there so many times. And there were periods that I would manage myself well and she 'd still remember something that happened months ago and bring it up to complain and start a fight.

Wondered this all the time.  I told him that I was being serious that I thought something was wrong with his brain.  He'd forget long, important conversations.  He told me I must have had a bad dream.  I really thought I was crazy or he had brain damage for real.  Now I don't think so.  I think it was just gaslighting by a pro.

They just never let anything go, but expect you to let everything go immediately. It's the behaviour of a toddler.

When I first met mine she got angry because she thought I'd sat too close to a female friend. A friend of hers apparently agreed with her that it was inappropriate. Who knows if that is true, maybe she made it up. Being able to claim that others agreed with her made me feel like I was in the wrong. But no one ever agreed with her in earshot of me, and plenty of people have since told me they thought she was "weird" or "unstable." Gaslighting. It seemed extremely unimportant as an incident, it was hardly like she caught me in bed with her or with my tongue down her throat. I was just sat next to her chatting - she was telling me about her new boyfriend. We weren't flirting or touching, or anything like that, but she said it made her feel unimportant so I made a point of not doing anything like that in future to avoid miscontruing things again, but it didn't matter - she was still going on about it after we broke up 2 years later. She actually phoned one of my friends and ranted about it, and my friend got bored of hearing it. But my ex told me it was the friend who had brought it up.

In a relationship, you sometimes annoy the other person or upset them, maybe without meaning to, or say the wrong thing, everyone does it. You have to able to apologise, forgive, maybe moderate your behaviour in future and move on. These people never forget, never forgive anything and never move on, while expecting you to ignore all their abuse, and that is one reason why they simply are unable to conduct healthy relationships. Mine told me "I want my parent to be stronger than me." She meant, "I expect to act up when I feel like it, and you to take it." They are children and you are in a one-way parent/toddler relationship, not an equal adult relationship. It's hopeless.

My exgf would always go on about different celebs and how gorgeous they where. When the Chris rea video wicked games came on I said that Helena Christianson had the most amazing blue eyes. She took immediate umbrage to this and started having a go about how she had amazing blue eyes. One comment compared to her hundreds and guess what I never lived it down.

Same here. Said to me "I don't mind you finding other women attractive." Trap! Early on I said some celebrity was attractive, big mistake. She on the other hand made such comments all time time. When I pulled her up on the double standard, she was "just joking." Even this is abuse really, part of a power struggle to undermine you.

All of this was X100 for me.

*mod*

We kindly ask to redirect the comments to the original posters discussion of denial, emotional amnesia and dissociations as the thread is going "off topic" Thank you all.

The effect on you/us may be the same as gas lighting but there's good reason to believe this is not intentional manipulation -- he IS mentally ill, his brain does distort what he knows and remembers. Read Jeffrey Young's articles on BPD "modes" and schema therapy. That work makes clear that pwBPD are dealing with practically different personalities and from day to day and hour to hour actually may NOT know or remember conversations and events. And if they do recall it may be from a radically different perspective.

Like everyone else I has those incidents where my ex could not recall whole important conversations and looked at me as though I were nuts when I referred to them.

I really think we do ourselves a disservice by understating how distorted their thinking is by this very real disorder. Thoughts and memories are altered and behavior is compulsive. Yet we tend to wonder why they "choose" to act in a hurtful way ... .

He remembers every detail about our friendship for the last 22 years and all of the good things that I don't even remember. He claims not to remember what he says in the rages and at times like some of you says I must have made them up. Part of me thinks it's selective memory, other parts believe the disorder truly does cause memory loss as to what was exactly said but not take away the whole incident. They know when they are mean. He's cried pondering why everyone is mean to him (they aren't) and asks if it's something he's done (it usually is)

I think there are occasions when pwBPD are so stressed and anxious, dissociating etc. (basically bordering on psychosis) and in such cases they may not remember what they do or say. I accept that and I have witnessed this myself too e.g. forgotten things or didnt remember exactly what I said when I have been under a lot stress.

However there are also occassions when they are lying off their teeth, gaslighting, denying and being competely conscious of what they are doing. That I believe has to do with core shame. They basically can never be wrong. You can confront them. Show them that this is the text they send when they said x, y and z and they would still deny it, leave the room, won't respond. Drives a person crazy

Mine usually just didn't respond. Or changed the subject. Very very frustrating.

Sometimes she would just reinterpret it as something totally different. Like when she said she didnt like her partners to have problems of their own. I reminded her of that years later, and she remembered it - most people wouldn't, since it wasnt an important conversation at the time (although it was a big red flag) and said "I meant, I dont like it when they beat their partners and act all macho." what the heck! thats not even remotely what you said!

Jeffrey Young may have found that his patients suffer from selective memory, but selective amnesia is not one of the criteria for BPD. I have only seen it on one or two occasions as part of the illness, and that has been from a "therapists" point of view, which must be taken with a grain of salt.

However, there are at least a couple of critera for BPD such as "going to great lengths to avoid separation" (I lie to make you stay!) and devaluation (why should I tell you the truth?) that could explaing intentional use of "selective memory". Let's face up to, they do nasty things.

I know it sounds cynical to describe pwBPD as "pro manipulators", but it's not far from the truth at times. And it's got nothing to do with being an evil genius.

But when I was trying concentrating on establishing on getting some kind of communication with with my xwife, she was busy thinking about how she was going to have things her way. As if her life depended on it.  She could not think of anyting else.

The original impulse may be caused by a disorder (most here are undiagnosed though), but very often the follow through is intentional. There is choice involved, with a multitude of ways they could reach out for real help to overcome their difficulties and not hurt others as much as they do. They're aware that they are wearing masks. Admit they run instead of deal with. They've seen the negative outcome of their actions time and time again, yet continue. So are they choosing to remain mentally ill? They are adults, with better options, and have been offered love, kindness, compassion... . But they refuse and fight against/destroy the very things they could benefit from the most. Selective memory such as we've seen equals less accountability and equals a less honest life. These are choices that are being made so their houses of cards don't collapse. Perhaps they're not as fearful of abandonment, confusion, and pain as much as thriving off of them?  

I'm so grateful to all of these thoughts to my initial question about denial and amnesia. I've re-read the thread a few times, as so many points often resonated precisely to my own experiences or offered insights I had not yet pondered.

My take, at least on my situation with my exBPDgf, is that it was an "and, both" kind of cognitive cocktail. That is, she was willfully lying, quite skillful at deception on certain things, and pretty much was going to do what she wanted, regardless of the emotional consequences with me. Indeed, just like the three-year old analogy several folks raise here. And, you have all reminded me that, in this case, my Peter pan is never going to grow up, as she's incapable of emotional honesty with herself.

But, as I said, there was something much more than this, and that brings me to my other conclusion. Which is the point about mental illness. She genuinely did not remember certain things - big things - like throwing kitchen items, driving a car over a retaining wall, devaluing me with her family within earshot. Sure, she may have acknowledged certain things at the time, a half-hearted apology, maybe, but a week, a few months, a year later: no recall, zero memory. Sure, some may say she's just a skilled manipulator. And maybe she was, but I genuinely think there was complete amnesia here, and something far deeper cognitively than lying/deception.

I must confess it makes me more compassionate with her when I see at least some of her behavior through this lens. Doesn't mean I'd ever go back to the black hole of fog and distortion that was my life for five year. In fact it makes me realize change is impossible without a major intervention, and that would have to come from her. Still, she's miserable and does not have the emotional skills to navigate life, nor the ability to reach out for the skilled psychological help needed for her mental illness. What an awful way to live.

It's said that a fairly high percent of pwBPD get better with treatment, but from the stories I read here it seems many people (in so much that they actually are BPD, many are undiagnosed, remember) seem to have low compliance when it comes to treatment or has no treatment at all. Chances are that the pwBPD who chose to "remain ill" are the pwBPD whose partners end up writing on this board. If a person has untreated BPD and has a partner, that partner will propably need help.

I too believe that when they are in full blown rage then they don't remember it. The look I got when I mentioned things she had said was one of utter disbelief. At first I thought that this was guilt/ shame not allowing her to admit it but now the more I think about it the more I truly believe they don't remember.

As Ive raised before on other posts I believe hormones have a lot to do with BPD. Certain hormones block or impair memory.

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_stress_on_memory

When a BPD is in full blown rage then their stress levels go through the roof. This would explain why they think were the crazy ones as we seem to be making these things up that they cant recall.