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Hi all.  Well, some of you may have followed my story - exH hasn't been taking his medication and is uBPD plus apparently (heard thru parent coordinator) bipolar.  I got supervised visitation and we demanded that he start taking his medicine.  But his doctors provided notes saying he's complying with their treatment.  My lawyer said she wasn't sure we could continue with supervised, considering the letters -- so we settled with an order saying he had to follow his docs' recommendations, has to provide annual letters saying he's being treated, and next year we get a new PC.  So he was back to unsupervised this weekend.

In the last few days, he has been using the phone calls to the kids (4-6 of them per night now) to send me texts complaining about me and how I handle the calls.  Also claimed one of our kids told him I hit him!  (He makes this false claim about once-twice a year when stressed, it's documented so I'm not worried that anyoen would believe him... .)

And in the last four days he's verbally abused me in front of the kids 2x.  One at a school event.  Second time was today.  He came to pick up our toddlers who are under 5.  He spent the whole time yelling and abusing me about not packing the right stuff for our kids etc... .I got more stuff together.  Then he snapped at one of the kids, ":)on't talk, daddy's off his medicine."  Then he ordered me to do something else, I finally said, "I'm not a sheep," and our older child (shockingly) said, "Mommy's not a sheep!"  So he snapped, You better watch your mouth!  Keep in mind these are young kids.

They both ended up in tears because he was yelling. They didn't want to go with him to his relatives' house for the night.  But I let them.  Wasn't sure what to do. 

He sent me a text from his house saying something nice, then something later accusing me of alienating them.

So he is 1) Delusional 2) Verbally abusive to me 3) Now verbally abusive to the kids 4)  unpredictable.

But he is too smart to ever threaten or commit physical violence, so far.

I have the whole incident on tape but I don't want him to know I was taping unless I can really follow through and do something worthwhile about it.  I want to keep taping in case there's something worse that he says or does... .

Considering he reduced both kids to tears, and admitted he's off his meds, why am I not sure what to do?  Here's my dilemma:  1)  I feel like to do anything would show my hand and maybe I should wait to see if it gets even worse... .  AND 2)  What do I hope to accomplish if I go back to court?  I could ask for supervised visits... .and then he will go see his doctors and say he's taking his medicine now and he'll go back and get unsupervised again.  Even if we demand that he does X, Y, and Z, he will probably still be unsupervised eventually... .and this time be even angrier!  I could reduce his time, but he has so little that it makes little sense to go through all that effort.  He can still abuse them in less time.  If he had 50/50 parenting time it might be one thing and I could ask for him to have less, but he has them two weekends a month.

I AM NOT MAKING EXCUSES, JUST HAVE NO IDEA WHAT TO DO.  There are specific things triggering him and it's likely that he will calm down in a few days (first day of school, recent court stuff etc).  If I go back to court, that's just another round of nasty and when he gets them back unsupervised eventually (no matter how long it takes) then he will just take his behavior underground and I'll never know it.

My lawyer is hard to get in touch with and I can't afford a new one.  She is good but very busy.

There isn't middle ground, it seems to me.  I can send a lawyer letter telling him to cut it out.  Pointless.

My question is... .would a judge order long term supervised based on his behavior, if it's emotional abuse alone?  And if that's even the right thing?

Restraining order is a possibility, but I let them go with them.  I just didn't know what to do, realistically. He seems to do these things to scare and hurt me.  This is probably an extinction burst, but who knows?  I may have a chance to act, or acting may be premature.  Just don't know.

Personally I wouldn't have let them go while he was acting like that but it is a very difficult position to be put in.

How did he behave with the kids when he had them. Did they say anything that concerned you?

I think as you have it on tape then next time he comes to pick them up tape it again. If he behaves the same way then say that you are not happy for him to have them while he is behaving the way he is as he is upsetting the children. Ask him to leave and tell him that when he has calmed down you can discuss it in a calm and sensible manner. If he refuses to leave then tell him you will call the police and if necessary do so.

The two tape recordings would be enough evidence to show a court that you are concerned about his stability and the fact that he said he is off his meds shows that he cannot be trusted to follow the previous ruling. Then ask for supervised visitation.

Don't be hard on yourself for not knowing what to do. You're just starting to set boundaries. Once you keep doing it, and get used to it, you'll find it easier to listen to your instincts. Boundaries and good instincts kinda hang out together.  :)  I found that it took practice. I also had to gain some confidence, which started to happen when things kept going my way in court.

It isn't so much that he was emotionally/verbally abusive to the kids that the court would pay attention to, it's the combination of that, plus his comment about being off the meds that would probably give them cause for concern. You're already well inside this ballpark -- he's been diagnosed with something, there's concern about delusions, you have third-parties who are concerned, you already have majority custody. Next time you see him slip up like this, don't feel too nervous about listening to your instincts. They're good. Let him deal with the burden of filing a motion for contempt against you. He's a grown up, and knows he has issues, and knows his kids are young and vulnerable. Somewhere inside him, he knows he needs you to protect the kids from him. With my ex, he knew when he was being excessively paranoid/psychotic. Yours probably does too.

Also, think of it like this: you want to model for your kids what happens when someone is mean, doesn't take medication, and says bad things. I think you might be a little paralyzed from reading all the stuff that goes on here, but you have some real advantages. Trust your instincts and put the girls first. My sense is that things will work out for you ok in court.

The worst that would happen if you prevented him from seeing the kids is that he would file an ex parte motion to see them. That would cost some money, but you would have the kids safe with you while waiting for the hearing. Sometimes these ex parte things go on for months. N/BPDx had to wait 3 months just for the hearing, although there may be a time limit where you live for ex parte hearings. In some states, it's six weeks.

You have to remember that the scales are tipped in your favor. A judge is likely going to see things through your perspective, although he or she will still need to rule according to their interpretation of the law. That just means they will bend it as far toward your favor. So even if you "deny" visitation, the judge may give you a hand slap and then get your ex to do xyz, like report on whether he is being medicated, or whatever you ask for in court.

I can't remember if you are allowed to use recordings in court? Even if you can't, and your L simply tells his L that there is proof he admitted to being off his medication, that could help you negotiate more of what you want.

In this case, the exchange was in person, so taping is legal this time.

And yes, the reason he is giving me these signals is so that I will do something about it.  He deep down can't necessarily handle the kids. 

My concern is that even if it takes a year, and he gets on his meds, whatever whatever, then what?  He's back to unsupervised and much sneakier now even then before.

I feel like if I go file yet another motion, it has to be like, "He has to do x... .and then he gets the kids back." 

By the way, I know I said once that the kids are girls, but that was to throw ex off if he ever finds me here.  One is a son - don't mean to keep being cagey.    I am always concerned he may come here someday.  In any case, they are both under 5.

Does anyone get supervised visitation just for verbal abuse of kids?  Being off his meds, I still can't prove it.  The tape recording of this weekend would be concerning if anyone is willing to listen to it, but that shows my hand.  I am going to tell my lawyer everything, but she seems less and less available.  (May be sick of me by now). 

I live in the UK so things may be different but we have social services here. It might be worthwhile giving your equivalent a call and asking their opinion. Normally social services wouldn't get involved in something like this but would be happy to advise you.

If you are arranging things with your ex over the phone try and shift communications to email so you have a written record.

Good luck and I hope you get this resolved soon.

Keep recording.

As lnl said, if he does the same thing next time dont' let the kids go and call the police. When they arrive just play the recording and tell them you fear for the childrens safety. The police will protect the kids. They are obligated to do that. Ex may even flip out in front of them. If he does they will take care of it from there.

This is a tough time and situation. No one is perfect and we all make mistakes. The trick is to learn from them.

Thank you.  Both very good points.  Keep them coming.  My lawyer just doesn't have time to talk to me about all this stuff.  I should be seeing my therapist and keep putting it off. 

One of the real difficulties I had when ex first left was that I had an idea in my mind of how she should/would be with our kids. That myth took time to dispel from my mind. Then I became upset with the way she was acting and tried to fix it figuring if I explained it to her she would get it and take care of the kids the right way.

Eventually I realized she was gonna do what she was gonna do and I needed to help our kids deal with the reality. During this time they were learning on their own. However, learning to listen to them and validate helped them to find good coping strategies.

When my ex left our boys wre 8.5 and 4.5 years old. I think the younger one had the most difficulty back then because of his age and his limited coping mechanisms. As the boys got older they developed better/more strategies. They are 15 and 11 now and I see how, as they got older, they learned more ways to deal with their mom.

Not taking what my ex was doing personally was something I had to learn. I now view her as a court ordered babysitter that I have no say about. The only exceptions are when I think the court order is not putting the kids best interest in front. I don't have examples like yours but I do have one I remember.

I pick the boys up at school on Thursdays. The court order has me taking them to their moms later that evening. Last year I receieved a call from S11's school nurse. He was not feeling well. The nurse said she called his mom three times and left a voicemail. Ex is a nurse and I am sure she let the nurse know that before. I was already on my way to pick S15 up at school since it was a Thursday. I told the nurse I would be there in about 15 minutes. I arrived at the school in about 15 minutes. S11 had a fever so I asked the nurse if she thouhght tylenol was a good idea. She agreed and gave him some. We went back to my car and drove to his moms which is closer. We normally do that to pick some of their things. Ex's car was out front. She did not answer her door and did not answer her phone. I assumed she was sleeping. An hour later I received a frantic call from ex. I emailed her all the info I had including the fact that S11 was in bed and sleeping. I said I was not waking him up and I would keep her posted if anything else arose. Ex replied that I was in contempt because I was supposed to drop them off at her place. I repeated that I was going to lert S11 sleep and I would keep an eye on him. I had no intention of waking a sick child up to follow a court order. Ex sent several emails threatening me. I ignored them. The next day he was still not feeling well so I called the pediatrician. I got an appointment and emailed ex with the time. She acknowledged the email and never showed up at the docs. I am certain, if ex filed a petition, I would have been fine.

I think you are feeling paralyzed too much by long-term strategic thinking. If you want to protect the kids, protect them. Don't second-guess that instinct anymore, ok? You're a good mom. Don't worry about what happens if he goes back on his medication, or what could happen in a year. Focus on your gut instincts and do what's right for them when things get heated.

You feel anxious about court stuff because it's new to you, it has a lot of authority, and it's expensive. You need to separate that from your (good) instincts about the kids. Right now, in front of you and the kids, he admitted he wasn't taking medication. He got emotionally and verbally abusive, and because of their ages, and his mental illness diagnoses, you felt understandably worried. Then you started to over-think. It's a common trait among people here, for some reason. We seem to be people who second guess why we're in boiling hot water. Should we turn the heat down? Should we move to the other side of the pot? Maybe it will start to cool on its own because it's 10pm after all. Or maybe if we close our eyes it won't feel as hot. If we turn down the heat, will someone get mad at us? What if they turn it up even hotter.

A person who is thinking in healthy ways just gets out of the pot. Doesn't even think twice about it. Scalding hot boiling water? I'm outta here.

You need to get in touch with that instinct. It's in you.

Don't worry about whether or not the verbal/emotional abuse is sufficient to warrant supervised visitation. It makes sense that you are trying to weigh everything -- the expense, the change of winning, not wanting to tip your hand that you're recording, etc. But if you weigh everything all the time, you're going to get paralyzed. You need to get back in touch with your natural instincts.

I filed an ex parte motion to suspend visitation when N/BPDx sent text messages to S13 about my BF being a pedophile, among other strange messages. N/BPDx always did this stuff on Fridays when I couldn't reach my L, and when visitation was supposed to happen the next day. When I went into court, I asked that visitation be suspended until N/BPDx had a psych eval, went to anger management classes, and got substance abuse treatment. Technically, I lost that hearing because the judge ordered visitation to resume. But the judge also said, "No more inappropriate messages to S13 or else no visitation. And yes, N/BPDx needs to do these three things within 30 days."

This is how court works. You lose what you want -- the big ticket item -- but the judge gives the opposing party very reasonable instructions to follow that they can't. That seems to be the way people win in court, by making custody the opposing party's to lose.

Court is on your side, momtara.

The next time something like this happens, calmly tell your ex that he is not in any shape to be caring for two young children at the moment, and that you hope he changes his mind about taking his medication, and staying in therapy. Tell him to send you an email describing how he is going to stay in treatment, or whatever. Might as well get some evidence in writing if you can!

Then get in the car and tell your kids that it's not ok for people to talk like that. Not to you, and not to them. Tell them that their dad is trying to get better, but he finds it hard. When he takes care of himself, he can do fun things, but he isn't doing that right now, so you're all going to the park to run around. If they feel upset or bad, let them feel that way. It will help them learn to regulate negative feelings, and that's what builds resilience. Ask them how they feel, and validate those feelings. They love him but are mad? That's ok. They don't love him right now because he was mean? That's ok. They are mad at you for something? That's ok.

Then go see your T! You need help dealing with this stuff too.



LnL

I know.  Thank you.

My question becomes:  Should I wait until next time, or do something after he brings them home?  What is my objective in court?  He already is in counseling.  I could tell my lawyer tomorrow to do something, still file something even though he took them... .

I just don't know.

I *do* worry about all the implications, because this is BPD and we do have to think unlike normal people.

I think his mood probably will pass.  Until next time.

David's story is a good one - but my kids are too young to learn the coping mechanisms... .

What if we send him and his L a sternly worded letter saying that he needs a letter from his psychiatrist saying he's seeing him every 4 weeks, and he is being stabilized on his medication - and if he doesn't get the letter, he needs a psych eval - and if he doesn't do that, no unsupervised until he does?  Threatening without using the courts?  I also don't have to tell him I taped it. 

Or telling his therapist what happened?

Or... .?  I'm trying to think of a middle ground between either;

a) Just waiting 'til next time and 

b)  Going back to court for supervised again, pending x y and z. 

In my state, to file an ex parte emergency motion, you have to write a whole thing saying harm WILL come if this matter is not dealt with within 24 hours.  It is a high standard.  I wish you could just write that harm "may" come!

Also, lived and learned, my instinct maybe wasn't what it should be.  My instinct was to just not fight, and not show him that his behavior was bothering me.  You know, set boundaries.  I guess I have convinced myself that they would be fine after I was not there... .But maybe this was a case when I should have said, "Hey, leave them alone!"  

By the time he put them in the car, the emotionally abusive part was over (I think).  Of course, I still worried.  Just wondering how to separate geniuine fears from my frustrations and not wanting my kids to be even 1 percent emotionally abused.

Well, they are back unharmed... .far as I can tell!  They want to go to the park

Hi Momtara

Don't beat yourself up for letting the kids go. We all know how messed up our thinking gets with our BPD around. Hindsight is a wonderful thing as they say.

Are your kids old enough to have a discussion with? Ask them how their dad was with them and if they enjoyed themselves.

It may be as he is a trigger for you so you are to him and like you say once you weren't there he was fine.

The best course for all of you is for him to be a stable and loving parent. Unless you believe that you or the kids are in danger then one encounter will not hold that much weight. If the next time he comes to collect them he behaves the same way then he is setting a pattern as opposed to being able to argue that it was a one off.

As I said before if he does it again then don't let the kids go with him. Tell him that his behaviour isn't healthy for the kids and that he needs to prove that he is on his meds and stable.

Get your attorney involved but open up a dialogue with him. Explain the impact that his behaviour has on the kids and how you want them to see their dad but don't think it is healthy for them to have to deal with him when he is unstable.

Maybe through the courts making him have supervised visits and discussing why his behaviour is a problem he will go back on his meds and try to change.

I wish you luck.

Talking to him is an idea... .

They are under 5 so can't really tell me if anything went wrong.  They look happy enough.

Children at that age aren't very good at hiding things so if they've come back happy then you should feel more at ease. My boys where 9 and 7 when my ex wife left me. I could tell if things where wrong by the way they acted and they would stop half way through a sentence before disclosing something their mum had told them not to tell me. You know your kids so you will pick up on anything that's concerning them before they even tell you.

My son was almost 4 when we separated, she took him to the hospital, also hosting a regional child abuse center as well, and despite her prepping him, he never really recited her allegations or "suspicions" ("My son told me... ." until he was 6 years old.  She g=had just raged at our pediatrician's staff and had been 'fired'.  Probably when she got the "withdrawal of services" letter - she was custodial parent in the temporary order during the two year divorce - she then had to figure out how to (again) try to make me look worse than her.  So he took him to the hospital and she finally got him to recite her claim that I had become enraged at him and beat him on his shins of all places.   The nurse who interviewed him said they appeared to be normal bruises for a very active boy which he clearly was but since he said it therefore the matter was reported to CPS.  Later he told me he didn't know how he got them but then said it must have been when he was on the monkey bars.  With his mother.  CPS interviewed him at what they considered a neutral location - his kindergarten school.  They called me in but after I explained what I knew, even playing a couple recordings where son was trying to show me his bruise and saying he wasn't sure how he got it, they told me they just wanted to hear my side.  The case was closed.

So I pondered how to address it with him.  I found out he didn't realize he had lied.  (I suspect many children influenced by acting-out disordered parents tend to be a bit slow to make progress with observations and conclusions.)  So I found a children's book that dealt with the issue of honesty.  It was out of print, so I bought a used copy.  It was a Clifford the Big Red Dog book:  T-Bone Tells the Truth.  You could see the light bulb going off in his head as we read it and discussed it together.

Another children's book that my son absolutely loved, he laughed so hard snot came out his nose, What Dads Can't Do by Douglas Wood.  Don't worry, you mothers reading this, there's also a book for moms too, What Moms Can't Do.

(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc255/4ever4/DadsCant_CrossStreets.jpg) (http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc255/4ever4/DadsCant_SleepLate.jpg)

I had to learn how to detach emotionally. It was difficult and the best thing that helped me was LC and only through email. I found it really difficult to not get "confused" when I was physically near ex in the beginning. She had a way to run circles around me until I wasn't sure what I was thinking. Having minimal physical contact helped me a lot. Exchanges became very rigid and distant. I didn't go near her and stayed in my car. She used to walk up to my car and I would open the window a few inches. I said little. Once she actually stood in front of my car so I couldn't drive away. I sat there with the kids in the car until she moved. That was a long 5 minutes. I watched the clock on my radio. I talked to the kids and they wanted to know why mom was doing that. I said I really didn't know and started talking about something else. She finally stepped away from the car and I drove away. There is no rational reason for her behavior and I don't look for it anymore.

I also view ex as a child and it is my responsibility as an adult to make and enforce boundaries. That is a mindset. It takes time to learn. If my ex did what your ex did now I would not let the kids go with her. However, seven years ago I would not have been as clear headed as to what I should do. It does take time.

If there is a next time you know what to do since you are thinking it through. Follow that. There probably will be more yelling but if you call the police you will be letting him know that kind of behavior is unacceptable. Since the kids came home safe I don't think going to court would be of any use. Telling the judge what concerned you, but you let them go anyway, and they came home safe will not convince a judge to change anything.

Yeah, I guess I shouldn't have let them go.  Hindsight is 20/20.  However, he was still verbally abusive to them and if he really is off his meds, that is a change in circumstance as well.  He was at least on antidepressants for the last year.  So a judge may be swayed by that, maybe.

I am thinking a lawyer letter may just at least force him to back down a little on the harassment. 

He is impossible to coparent with.  He is now emailing me to cancel their doctors' appointments.  Ugh.  Courts can't do much about a parent who just makes things really really difficult.

I just had a quick consultation with a new lawyer.  He said half the cases he deals with, the person is suffering from depression.  He said I married the guy, have to live with him and the things he says.  He said if he's not REALLY causing them danger, and he's not on drugs or alcohol, the courts in my county don't have time for my story.  I have heard this before, but I don't want to make excuses.  It's my job to protect the kids.

I guess my fear is that they will get older and exH will get worse and I will wish I didn't do more when I had the chance to do so.  I think I might even get legal decision making if I tried.  But I guess for now I shall wait.  I do have majority custody.  I worry about things like - what if my son needs counseling in high school and my exH says no, and I wish I had done more earlier to get decision making?  In the end I guess I can still make the decision. 

I told the guy how my ex canceled my kids' appointments because he was angry at me.  He said, "Welcome to divorce."

It just flabbergasts me that people are allowed to act this way in society.  It wouldn't dawn on me, especially after looking at my daughter's sweet face.  She puts a blanket on her teddy bear at night and says "I'm ok!" if she falls, so I won't worry.  How can anyone act cruel in that situation?

Another thing I worry about:  What if one of the kids gets older and sides with him?  One never knows, I guess.

Hi Momtara

Im afraid all you can do is record his behaviour and communications to build up a picture. The more evidence you have the stronger your case will be.

One thing with divorce is that people on both sides do and say things to discredit the other party. Courts are aware of this so they probably look at everything with a pinch of salt. This doesn't help when the accusations are genuine though. The more you can prove he is not behaving properly the less they will think that it is just sour grapes on your behalf.

As it stands your children have been returned unharmed and not showing any signs of stress. So for the time being you can relax as it is probably the contact with you that triggers him.

As for your children taking his side this is a different battle. All I can say is by being the bigger person in this they will see the truth. NEVER say anything to undermine your ex in front of them. NEVER change plans for him to have them to suit your own needs. By being honest and open with them and not saying or doing anything that their dad can moan to them about you they will see the truth. Whatever he tries to convince them of will have no foundation so they will be less likely to believe him. His actions will betray him just as my ex wifes did her. She tried to convince my sons that I didn't want them on particular weekends when she had cancelled and refused me access. She said things about me to them that they found out weren't true. She had them keep secrets from me which made them feel torn whereas I was always open and honest with them.

I wish you luck and hope this comes to a satisfactory conclusion for you.

EM

What is the condition or diagnosis that your ex is being medicated for?

I think you might want to take a slightly different approach. If ex was on his meds as prescribed and he behaved the same way would it make a difference. The simple answer is no.                The courts probable don't care if he is taking his meds or not as long as he doesn't appear to be a threat to the children. Saying no when he behaves that way regardless of his meds is what the courts will look at. It's not easy in the beginning but setting that boundary will make you stronger and thereby help the kids. They will see your actions and that will sink in. You may never see the results clearly but you are showing them that boundaries are important and behaviors have consequences.                                                                                                                        I realize this is very easy to say and much more difficult to do consistently. Trying to maintain your composure in front of such a hostile environment is not easy. It takes practice. The more I learned to make boundaries for myself in relation to my ex the better my situation got and by default the better our kids situation became. It's not easy to see that in the beginning and if I could go back in time that is something I would have done much sooner.

Saying no to visitation, or no to stuff in general?

Livedandlearned, he is being treated for bipolar.  He has told me it was PTSD and OCD, but that's not totally true.  He was never treated for anything before I left him.

Saying no to that single incident.

He comes to pick kids up and starts raging. You simply keep the kids in your house and tell him he needs to leave and calm down. If he does not you or him calls the police. When they show up you calmly explain your concern. If he is still agitated the police will see it and should take care of the rest. If he can calm himself down that is a positive. It may take a few times but he will learn the boundary that you have instituted. This is a a very simple explanation just to show the basic steps.

Talk to your T about the best way to handle this. He/she will probably know better for your situation.

I had a voice recorder running during exchanges and other contact.  It was to protect myself and establish the facts of what happened.  (So of course I did not return curses to her when she was cursing me out.  I was the perfect gentleman and that even infuriated her more.)  To me she would rant and rage but every time police were involved she morphed into a "he's blocking my child exchange" victim.  As an example of times she brought the police to my home, to her it didn't matter that she hadn't shown up at the specified exchange location but was elsewhere.  I was the bad guy and she was the poor mother only wanting her child.  They saw the Mask of Seeming Normalcy, I saw the raw unfiltered her.

Recording the rage is a good idea. If the police get involved it is simply he said/she said without it. With the recording it is he said/what was actually said. That sets a precedent for the police.

Back in 2007 ex called the police in our township many times. I knew every officer by first name. Some got to see ex at her worst and that was told to the others. Over time she lost all credibility with the police. The still had to show up when she called but I was no longer assumed the guilty party.

Ex moved to another township and started the same bs. I forgot how I had to prove myself and that led to ex getting me into trouble.

I now have a video and an audio recorder with me at all times. There is a back to school night tonight. The audio recorder wil be on and in my pocket the entire time. I can download it on my computer later if I think it is needed. I will also have my small video recorder in my pocket just in case. I wear cargo pants in these situations to carry my gear.  lol

I got the last rage on tape and it's pretty clear.  Thing is, you guys needed it to protect yourselves from your ex wives' accusations.  It was a defensive move against false claims.  I already have custody most of the time, except every other Saturday to Sunday.   So my move would be a proactive move to further reduce his time or powers.   I either have to do something, or just let things go on.  The idea of standing up to him is fine, telling him not to rage at me at pickups.  The bigger question is - if I know he is already violating an agreement we just signed - should I try to get him back under supervised visitation.  What some are saying is that I just have to keep monitoring, which I will.  But if he breaks an agreement I wonder if I can arbitrarily just withhold the kids.  It's hard to say.  It just frustrates me that he gets to act like this, but also like some have said above, I have to not let it get to me.  I just wish his T knew how he really acted.  People with BPD have gotten so skilled in lying that they tell you the opposite of the truth and you buy it.  I'm sure his therapists are buying it.

What if he were not the biological father ? If someone else came up to you to pick up the kids, say a babysitter, and they raged like that, would you give the kids to them. Having a recording will show what you are talking about and concerned about. The police will not enforce the custody exchange if you let them hear the recording and state that you are concerned about the childrens safety. It may not be the end goal but it is setting a boundary that is good for the kids.

It will be up to the ex to file a contempt charge against you. Going to court with the recording will be a win/win. You will not be found in contempt and ex will be put on notice. You can also request at that time to reinstate supervised visitation. If the judge says no you still have it on record. Wind up in court again and the judge will have to change his/her mind.  It may or may not play out that way but it is a long range plan and it keeps the kids somewhat safer. I don't think the courts will do more than that unless you have an expert testify. Courts do not make quick decisions.

Sounds as though you are at a watershed moment, momtara. Understandably struggling to define for the family law professionals and for yourself "what's wrong" with your husband, you now have a concrete example:


And you have it on tape.

And you have the tremendous guidance on this thread. Powerful practical stuff.

Wow. 

Wow, I appreciate that.  OK, so I need honest opinions now:

One thing I could do is withhold them from the next visit based on last time.  OR only do it only if he acts that way again.  What do you guys think?

I think it's a little more complicated if I withhold them from his next visit based on last time.  There won't be anything for the court to enforce, so he could still go and pick them up from day care or school any day without telling me, if I suddenly withhold them from the next visitation.  Even if it's not his day to have them, we have joint custody and he's legally allowed to do that, my lawyer said.  And day care and school would let him.  He hasn't done it yet, but he could, if I prevent his regular visitation.

My problem during the divorce, and during this latest round, is that I dealt with the courts too soon, before I really had more evidence.  This latest incident - the worst one yet - of course happened four days after I signed a consent agreement letting him off supervised visitation.  If it had happened before or during, I could have made  a better case and had more clarity.  That's the thing - acting too soon vs. not acting at all vs. not being afraid... .it's so hard to know when exactly to act.  I'm kind of waiting for him to make a physical threat.  Saying "Better behave, daddy's off his medicine" is not a direct threat, but not very nice either.

If I withhold them, then I'd have to go to court to get an emergency order again, and to do that in my state, you have to say the kids are in danger, not they *might* be. 

It may be better to wait until another incident of verbal abuse, but I dont' want to sound like I'm rationalizing... .I have to weigh all the implications.  I know Livedandlearned said we try to overthink what our BPD exes might do, and that is certainly a point.

Well, I am seeing a therapist tomorrow, so we'll see how that goes.

My honest opinion is to wait until the next exchange. If he acts the same way again then you are within your rights to refuse him having the children as you are not happy with his frame of mind. If he refuses to leave then you can call the police. This you can then use as additional evidence of his inappropriate behaviour. This will build a stronger case for you.

If he turns up and is polite to you and doesn't cause a scene then you should be happy. As long as the children do not get stressed out by staying with him then you will have reached your ultimate objective which is for the children to have two parents that love them and no arguments between you.

By going off too soon you have not given him a chance to change or prove you right.

If you withhold the children because of the last time the judge will want to know why are you doing it now since nothing bad happened. I don't think that will fly in court.

If he does it again and you say no than you can say he did this before and the children were upset. I was too upset to think clearly, or something like that, but after having time to think about it I do not believe this behavior is good for the children. The children need to see and understand this kind of behavior is not acceptable. Remember you have to focus it on what is best for the kids.

This behavior has to change for the children or something needs to be done. Perhaps supervised visitation until ex can prove he can behave better in front of the children. Supervised visitation takes you out of the loop in determining whether his behavior is acceptable or not. You then need to figure out who is best to supervise. Some kind of court recognized professional that knows what the courts and your concerns are.

The court is a game with rules. In order to achieve the goal you want you have to play by the rules. The big problem is to play this game out costs lots of time and $. You have to figure out how to use the courts wisely to minimize costs.

Having documentation (recordings) (you may even want to write it down too just to cover objections about recordings/ if they hear one and you have it in writing they will probably assume the rest are true too) of more than one instance will go a long way. Remember too, that if you refuse to let him have the kids the next time he rages he has to take you to court and file contempt charges. If he doesn't file he will not change anything and you can continue doing what you have established as what you think best for the children. If you then gather multiple similar situations with recordings the courts will have to take a closer look if he then files. You will then be able to show consistent behavior of both parties. You will be holding a much stronger hand and you will be showing that you are not preventing ex from seeing the children as long as his behavior is in the childrens best interest.

I saw a therapist I see sometimes. He at times works with the courts. He said to definitely keep documenting.  He said not to withhold the kids (unless they're in real danger) but send him a sternly worded letter about both verbally abusive incidents.  He said while my exH is sick, he's obviously not so sick that he can't control the behavior (it doesn't happen at work etc).  He said if I send the letter, he will very likely stop acting like that.

I agree.  However, I almost want to know when he's off his meds.  If he keeps it all inside, then I don't know what's in his head and when he's off his rocker.  So if I tell him not to say anything to me at pickups, I may worry even more, in a way. 

So I am documenting the incidents this time for myself, and I did let my lawyer know.  If he does it again, I'll try to figure out the next step:  Court, whatever.

My T said I am playing into his game by being intimidated and doing my own kind of backing down and manipulating. 

So the T said not to withhold the kids. So here is my two cents.

Ex comes to your house and rages. You go back in the house and the kids were there the entire time or you get the kids back in the house. Lock the door and call the police. When they show up you play the recording and say you fear for your childrens safety. Make sure you tell them you want a police report and make sure you get the officers names. Better yet you say you want their supervisor there. In my county that is the proper procedure. Not sure if it is the same in your county. If it is then the supervisor must show up. Play the recording again. As long as you are calm in the recording and looking out for the childrens safety I would suspect the police will tell ex this is a civil matter and he needs to take it up with the courts. Make sure the supervisor knows you want a report stating that you feared for the childrens safety. Also let them know this happened before and this is not good for the children. I do not believe they will do anything and it will be up to ex to go to court. If ex does not calm down and gets worse then the police will  take him away. Make sure you get the police report.

This really depends on how the ex is behaving and what is on the recording.

I think that withholding the kids next time based on your ex's behavior the previous time is a bad idea. (Looks like punishing him instead of protecting the kids)

If he does it again (verbal abuse of you and/or the kids), withholding them for their safety seems good and reasonable. And as others have pointed out, he will have to get the courts to address your behavior, which will clearly demonstrate his bad behavior to the court.

Dunno how important it is to put him on notice about this sort of behavior via a nastygram from your lawyer. If he never does it again, the only difference may be you paying your lawyer for the letter. If he does it again, you will be doing much more than that.

I can't speak for any particular area and I'm not providing legal "advice" as I am a lawyer.  However, supervised access is not meant to be long-term.  It is meant to be short term and to either ease into a "no access" regime or, alternatively, some form of supervised access in the community on the path to ramping things up eventually to unsupervised.  The best interests of the children are what matters. 

If I were to read this and my client asked for supervised, I would have to indicate the changes that have taken place and whether this constitutes an "emergency" situation.  there are simply so many factors.  I am concerned that you settled too quickly.  I would be suggesting to my client that we bring  a contempt motion for the dad failing to abide by the existing order as well as a motion for supervised access to be reinstated forhtwith.  I am uncertain as to whether you have had a "children's lawyer" or children's aid society involvement as of yet.  That may be wise at this time. 

I am so very sorry to hear of his downward spiral, again.  Your kids and you deserve the very best.  my hands hurt from a long day... .so I can't write a ton.  hang in there!

thanks, summer.  are you in the u.s.?  those are good thoughts.

a contempt motion is not a bad idea... .maybe i have to do it myself.

i will see if he acts like this again.  i'll go with my gut and withhold the kids if i think they are in danger.  

it is hard to look at their sweet faces and imagine that anyone could even emotionally hurt them.  it just galls me.

I just read this all again.  The predominant opinion seems to be to see if he does it again, and withhold then if he does (perhaps call the police so it's really their decision).

Another option is to have my lawyer draw up a contempt order/order to reinstate supervised, and tell his lawyer that he can avoid us filing it if he gets a letter from his pscyiatrist saying he's on his meds and seeing him regularly.  This is a concern of mine - that my exH was lying about seeing his docs regularly.  Like a wimp I took his word for it, even though he lies about everything else.  We did put into the order that he has to get annual letters saying he's being treated.  The idea was more psychological, for him to know he has to stay with his docs.  So we'd only get proof of treatment a year from now.  I'd be happy if his docs are brought into the loop, but because of HIPPA laws, I havce no way of forcing them to tell us if he's not following their recommendations.

Yes, HIPAA specifies confidentiality even from a spouse unless the individual waives it or by court order, something hard to get.

I recall one member here, I think he was once a board advisor here, mentioned how his spouse's doc called him and warned him to watch out.  Evidently she had voiced some sort of ideation about harming him and the doctor decided he needed to be warned but gave no details.  In your case, I don't know if you'd ever get a call from his doctors, it appears they don't get into much detail at all with him and so they really wouldn't know what he's thinking, if he would even tell them.

I think health care providers (at least mental health) must contact someone when their client makes a threat.

momtara, the key thing to keep in mind is that anything the court rules, you are the one who will be enforcing it. This is a civil order. Your ex isn't breaking the law. You become the person who will enforce anything that gets ordered. That means pay really close attention to what you are trying to enforce, and how you'll do it.

For example, you just learned that your ex will lie about taking his medication. The doctors will corroborate, whether it's because they just ask him and believe him, or whatever.

Already, you can see that this is going to be hard to enforce. The court can't enforce it either. They think it's your job to do that.

If you are willing to use your recording in a motion for contempt, to show evidence that your ex is lying about compliance, then your motion for contempt should say that your ex requires supervised visitation unless he gives you access to his medical treatment, if that's even possible under HIPAA laws. Which, I'm guessing, no family court is going to want to do. Unless your ex agrees to it.

Does that make sense? It's really important that this makes sense. Family court really lets us down here, and it can take a long time and a lot of money to figure this out.

The strategy I see is this: You go forward with your recording and tell your ex and his L that you have it on tape that he lied, and is not taking his medication. See if you can get them to agree to supervised, to avoid going to court. Tell them that your ex can get unsupervised back but only under the condition that he gives you permission to access his medical records (if that's even possible -- and family court lawyers aren't going to be expert in HIPAA laws, so you might want to consult with a someone with that expertise). If you discover he is not complying with treatment, you can prevent access to the kids.

I'm not saying this is possible, just that this is the kind of thing you need to avoid running to court when your ex lies, doesn't comply, etc. Because court can't enforce this. The only thing they can do is take your evidence and his signed agreement in earlier court documents, and back you up. Even then, only if they believe that you are credible and there is a real risk.

If you do ask for supervised, create a lot of obstacles for your ex to gain back unsupervised. But you'll need to come up with the terms because family court is not designed to prescribe what will or won't make a parent function properly. And frankly, as much as I love the idea that judges would see how BPD devastates our kids and act accordingly, I wouldn't want to live under a judicial system that reaches that deep into my personal life. Given how inept the system is, I wouldn't want a judge telling me to report every therapy visit to my ex (which he tried to get, btw). Imagine the judge, in all his or her bias and clouded judgment, deciding that you can't see your kids unless you take anti-anxiety medication. The way I feel about court at this point, I can think of nothing more offensive than having some judge tell me what I can and can't do.

But the judge can create consequences for non-compliance. The trick is figuring out how to show non-compliance without having to run to court when that very same court isn't going to enforce compliance.


That's true about everything in family court. Nothing is permanent. Fortunately, and unfortunately.

What I have had to do, at great expense and considerable exhaustion, is to chip away at small incremental protections, and use N/BPDx's inability to comply (with anything, or anyone) to my advantage. So S13 has half a chance to make it to adulthood without long-lasting psychological and emotional damage.

LandL, your advice is very valuable.  You do such great work here and think so much about everything.

It's 4 a.m. and I'm thinking about all this again.  ExH has visitation again next weekend.  So if I am going to do anything, I have to decide over this weekend.

Some things I know:

-Ex is mentally ill and sometimes imagines things. He also gets angry and likes to scare me by using the kids.

-As a result, I always worry he *could* do something.  Every professional in mental health I've consulted says it's reasonable to have concerns... .yet, they don't think he would do something extreme to the kids, based on what I've told them.  Bill Eddy's comment:  "If he was going to, he would have already done it."  Even our PC, who thought he was a mess, still believes he has his limits.  That said, it's really unpredictable what a person can do, of course, and what the triggers might be, especially since I'm not his only trigger.  I know courts don't like to look at what "might" happen.  But I do.  My kids are young and sweet.  I wish I didn't have to subject them to someone so mentally ill.  The PC *did* say that he's "unpredictable" if off his medication.

-A lot of my thinking goes to the long term.  I can honestly say, short term, that I don't think he is going to hurt them (more than he has, anyway).  The chances of him repeating last week's behavior at pickup this week are very unlikely.  Usually his mood passes in several days, when he's in those harsh, angry moods.  Once his anger passes, he settles into an angry sort of silence.  It's always right at the point I'm about to do something, too.  It's like he senses it.

If I were to file for contempt or something else this week, it will be mainly because I know that down the road, maybe in 6 months, maybe in 9, he'll do something else that scares me and I'll think, "I should have filed a motion while I had the chance."

-My objective is confusing, though.  As LandL said, I can't demand he stay on medication.  And in fact, in thinking about it, maybe there is a reason for him not to be on those drugs.  He used to tell me he didn't take them at night anyway because he couldn't take care of the kids if he was drowsy.  It's really between him and his doctors unless he gets a whole lot worse.  He was still imagining stuff even on the drugs.

-I think talk therapy is more important for him than medication.  What would really scare me is if he stops seeing his docs or doesn't see them at least the 2x/month he was before.  Our PC recommended he see them weekly.  He said he can't afford it.  

What I regret is that I let him off unsupervised without getting a note from his psychiastrist saying he was stabilized and able to watch the kids alone.  His shrink who sees him more often did write one saying that.  But that guy is just a nice folky guy and wanted to help ex not lose his kids.  The other guy is more familiar with his medication and reason to be on it.  If I had to do it again, I'd have said we either need a letter from his psychiatrist, or he has to get a psych eval.  (As an aside, our PC thought a psych eval is not worthwhile because he'd game the system.)

The reason ExH was so angry was that I nixed our last deal at the last minute and added in the language about his docs having to send my lawyer a letter once a year for eternity.  So I *did* do something and didn't back down, but it took me having to really reorient my thinking and not give in so much.

Sorry for the verbiage, I am trying to think all of this through.  I jumped the gun with my last motion and ended up settling because I knew I didn't have any evidence of exH doing something bad, so I wouldn't have had any justification to continue supervised visits except for the PC saying he should have them.  That may have been enough for the short term but not long term.  I can't make him stay on medication.  I should make him stay in talk therapy.  Annual reports probably are not enough.

What do I really want?  I want him to see his doctors regularly.  I know for a fact that it helps him.  He was doing so before, but he may say that after court costs, he can't afford it anymore, and just stop, or slow down.  I wouldn't find out for a year.

By the end of this weekend I may have a better handle on what to do.  These issues are so complicated.  I do like the idea of my L saying something to his L to avoid court.

One problem is the recording.  It's a good, clear recording, but I still am not sure I want to show my hand and let him know I was taping.  Without doing that, though, I don't have any proof that he said what he said.  

Everyone will think I'm weird for this, but I don't have a car and am thinking of buying one so I can transport the kids at least one way.  I always feel like that's what scares me the most, not knowing if they really make it to their destination each week.

The truth is, deep inside, I know something is wrong with him.  I know he could snap.  Our children are young.  All of that scares me.  But I do have to consider all the implications of a strategy I'd want to entail.  If we write a letter to his lawyers, I have to be prepared to actually do something if they ignore us.

Another piece of info:  I asked our PC what she would recommend if she was in the role of custody evaluator instead.  She said she'd recommend only day visits, once a week, until the kids are 5.  I find this no better than an overnight every other week, and potentially worse because he's invading their lives more often and not really having much downtime.

OK, back to bed. 

"It's always right at the point I'm about to do something" so he knows your boundary and he goes right to that boundary and stops. I am not sure how to do this but if you can think of a way to gradually move that boundary to a better place that may help.

If he picks the kids up at your place, depending on the layout, you can put up a video camera at the front entrance that is clearly visible. He sees it and decides to not act out. If he then acts out in other areas, and you are recording them too,  you have proof that he has control of his own behavior.

I had concerns that ex wasn't helping our kids with their school work. That started over two years ago. First I tried "co parenting" and sent emails trying to resolve the situation. That didn't work. I documented the entire time. During this time I assumed more (all) of the responsibility with helping them. That wasn't fair for the kids since I only seen them twice a week during the school year.

Last July I filed for a modification of custody. I was still documenting. I have copies of every homework, for the last two years, for our now S11. I wanted the hearing before the school year started last year because I thought she would change her behavior about their school work until the hearing was over. Ex, however, never changed her behavior. That had a lightbulb go off in my head. She can't change for whatever reason. Ex delayed the court date multiple times. We have a hearing on Monday. She tried several times to delay this date but the judge said no every time.

Had she simply changed her behavior I would not have a chance in court. My atty has overwhelming evidence including a custody eval report agreeing with all my concerns and basically recommending the change I am seeking.

The last three weeeks ex's emails have become nice for the first time in 7 years. To little to late.

My boundary was that I thought helping the boys with their schoolwork is vitally important.  All my actions from that point on follow that basic belief. I no longer try to figure out if ex agrees with that concept / if she is unable to do anything about it / whatever.

Well said, and I have been following your story and I am glad the judge isn't letting this get postponed anymore.  I'm also glad your wife told the CE she doesn't want to do 4th gr homework again (if that was your story - I remember that one.)

My T said something similar to what you said about how he stops right when I'm about to do something.  He said I have to set a boundary and the behavior will stop.

My response was that I wanted to have an idea of when he is angry and acting out.  If he is being delusional and angry, but he keeps his mouth shut when he picks up the kids, he's still delusional and angry and then he has them all weekend.  I'd rather know if he's in a bad state of mind.

My T said that by thinking like that, I am playing into his emotional game and being manipulative myself.

Still, in my heart, I feel that my opinion on that one is correct.  I'd rather know when he's in a poor state of mind.  What happened last time was the worst I'd ever seen him.  If it happens again, then I will do something.    The decision may involve legal action.  It may involve a letter.  I have a feeling it won't happen next time.  It may happen 6 months from now due to some unknown trigger.

Unfortunately, once he calms down, he'll want to hang out in the house when he picks the kids up, and at this point I have no desire to make nicey nice and have small talk, as it gives him the wrong impression.  The fact that I am going to be consistent and firm means he may have another extinction burst.  I am not going to be mean, just normal.

True, I can't make him change (although as recently as 6 months ago he was telling me how much the medication was helping him).  I can't get him under permanent supervised visitation (unless he gets worse).  I can't make him take his medicine.  What I do want is for him to get regular talk therapy and right now he can lie about it (until the shrinks have to submit letters next summer).  I also would like his therapists to know what has been going on, but not sure whether I should just send them a letter.  It's out of bounds and nosy but it's tempting.

Just thought I would add that yes I do get upset/worried/etc about our two boys. What kind of helped was they are older and I feel they are more able to take care of themselves. We have had numerous discussions about what you do if you are in an unsafe condition, etc. Nothing specific but I keep talking to them. I also have taught them how to do things for themselves sooner then I would have. I taught then how to cook sooner/etc. They do that at their mom's and she doesn't complain. She has no idea I taught them. If she did then that would be a problem.

Yeah, I think I wouldn't worry as much if the kids were older.  Smart move about teaching them.

I am going to see how exH behaves at the next pickup.  Deep down, I feel the kids are safe now.  I don't feel they may always be, and this is what bothers me - I can only act right when he does something, otherwise I look like I wasn't worried.  So if I don't do something now, then I have to wait until he gets bad again.  I may be willing to do that and just keep my eyes open.

I am tempted to email my L and see what she thinks (she didn't respond last time) but  she doesn't necessarily have all the answers... .she is looking to me to decide.  I feel like putting him back under supervised is extreme if I really dont' think he'll do something again in the near future.  So I probably will keep monitoring.  I just don't know if I'm giving up an opportunity to do more, and I am thinking about that this weekend.

What I should have done last time is asked for letters every 3 months from his shrinks, not once a year.  And for them to inform if he stops treatment.

Is it possible that he is not taking his medication because you are trying to make him?

BPD sufferers are not very emotionally mature. I remember when I confronted N/BPDx and gave him (a rather weak) ultimatum about his drinking. Initially he drank more. Then he got sneaky, making it look like he wasn't drinking, meanwhile doing all kinds of wacky secretive things to hide it. Then he would get belligerent and indignant, and almost like clockwork, would binge Friday through Sunday because "it was his house, his body, he could do whatever he wanted."

By confronting him, in many ways, things just got worse. It was good that I finally set a boundary, but I just gave him a whole new way to engage me in spiteful ways. "She doesn't like when I drink? I'll show her how I can really drink. Then I'll stop and mess with her mind. I'll make it look like I'm not drinking, and have a whole bunch of things to hide when I am."

It turned into a circus. He started this ridiculous year of hiding alcohol, and I became equally ridiculous, hunting through the back of the toilet looking for empty bottles of vodka. One day I found all these empty bottles stuffed inside the charcoal container next to the grill, and I remember feeling "HA! I knew it!" and realized I had become so enmeshed in this circus routine, acting like I was on a perpetual scavenger hunt. Meanwhile, N/BPDx was an abusive @sshol3. Why did it matter if I found evidence of his drinking?

You can't control him. You can't get him to comply. All the things you know will make him be safer, you have zero power over. He's clever, he's a grown man, and he's mentally ill. He is going to outsmart you and keep you focused on him (which is what he wants), and you are going to be perpetually one step behind. Even if you had unlimited funds and tried to wear him out in court, that probably would just satisfy the cat-and-mouse game where he gets to keep you negatively engaged. I think that's happening in my situation, and it's no way to live.

What would happen if you backed all the way off, gave him a completely neutral, opaque front -- no emotions, no negative engagement, no trying to control him?

Negative engagement is still engagement.

momtara, I think there is a harsh truth you need to look at:

As I read it, you want to have your exH being properly treated/medicated.  (This is a valid desire!)

If you can't get that, you want to know if your exH is going off meds/not cooperating with his T. (Also a valid desire!)

You are looking for ways to get these things through the court system, and I don't think it will help you--If you do get the court ordering this, you will still have to go back to court for enforcement... .and ultimately, any compliance on his part will be voluntary.

Here's reality as I see it: The courts can protect your kids from your exH by taking away his custody rights, decision making rights, or even visitation rights. Do this if you need to, and use appropriate strategy.

The courts cannot make him take good care of himself. If you try to use the courts that way, much time, energy, and money will go away, with very little chance of getting what you want out of it.

Does anyone who's been through the court system see it differently?

Well, we're about to find out... . 

Grey Kitty, all good points.  Except, my ex actually has been good about following our original agreement.  Like most BPD's, it's a clear boundary and boundaries are things he understands.  If the new order said he had to see his T 2x a month he might do it.  As it stands, it says he has to follow his docs' recommendations.  That's kind of vague but I imagine (and hope) they would tell him he can't see them only once a month, especially since they went out on a limb and wrote letters on his behalf.

For the last week, I have not answered his calls (except if the kids were with him), only responded briefly by email to questions.  (Obviously if it were urgent I'd respond quickly.)  In time, he's going to be unhappy with this.  I will be cordial enough, but no unnecessary engagement.

I think this pretty much sums it up.

Court is not very good at being codependent. 

Well, it's the end of the weekend.  Midway through, I decided I'm not going back to court right now.  If my fear is that he's going to keep acting this when off his medication, then it will happen again and then I'll act.  And if it doesn't happen again, I'll keep watching.  Unfortunately, his episodes are closely tied to various triggers, so we can settle into months of him being calm and then something else happening, and I kind of have to act when I have a chance, because if I let it go, I lose credibility.  So I'm watching carefully.  He may have more extinction bursts just because I'm not going to be warmfuzzy or engage him like I used to.

I can't force him to take medicine or be a nice guy.  I can make sure he's seeing his shrinks as often as he says he is - by asking for monthly reports.  I don't have those right now.  So if this happens again, I will have to ask an attorney (mine, or if she ignores me, someone else) to send a stern letter to his atty right away saying either do this, or we go to court for contempt and to reinstate supervised visitation and ask for a psych eval.  If he continues to be hostile I can make the case that it's clear he's off his meds like he said.

Only issue is that if I have to go to court while he's not supervised, he may get even angrier around the kids.  So I'd have to figure that out.  I did have a golden opportunity while he was under supervised to ask for stuff, and I was intimidated by court and the fact that our parent coordinator got scared off by my ex (he filed a complaint against her and she tersely sent us an email saying she no longer represents us).  Shoulda, coulda, woulda... .

Some of you have angry, hostile exes, but they don't take revenge using the kids.  Mine does.  Emotionally, but it's still scary.  It's like he freezes up and everything that comes out of him is mean and angry.  Any response make it worse.

What I did get in our new court order is that in a few months we see a new PC (with limited powers) and he has to give yearly reports from his shrinks saying he's seeing them.  A year isn't much, but at least it makes it clear he has to keep getting therapy for the rest of his life.

What I still am wrestling with is whether my L should send a letter to his shrinks with the court order and saying some behavior has us concerned.  At least that way they know the truth.  Unfortunately, he will give an alternate explanation and they won't know he's imagining things, because he's been covering up all his life (and people with PD's are so good at their alternative explanations:  "I never said that!" "No, what I said was... ."  "How dare you accuse me."

I also hope I can make more money.  I've about maxed out all my credit cards on legal stuff.  That was another fear of mine during this process that I should have ignored, as it ends up costing more later if I don't spend now.  

If he does something else I will ask for a psych eval too.  That might be good leverage for what I want.

OK, just thinking out loud.  At least it's not at 4 a.m. this time.

He has to give yearly reports... .so if he stops going in the second month is the psychiatrist required to contact someone to let them know he stopped ?

My ex tried to get me upset. I learned to detach. My fear was she would use the kids to get to me. I went back and forth. Eventually, my T pointed this out, I had to change or we would be going around the same crazy circle over and over and over again. I finally decided to stick to it and not react. I believe it was an extinction burst (her trying to get back to the same crazy circle

to stay engaged) and she did try to use the kids. It lasted for a few months and stopped. She did push the kids further away by her actions. I don't particularly like that but it is what it is.

My ex has said she would like to physically hurt me but I am twice her size so she does not intimidate me that way. I also keep my distance now. She never tried to physically hurt the kids and that is a good thing. Our boys are now 16 and 11. S16 is 6' 2" so she would not try anything physical. When they were younger that did cross my mind but it never happened. I always used to tell them that if they felt scared or threatened at some place they should try to get out and call me. These conversations were usually around the time the school was having something about not getting in a car of a stranger. I would just pick up with the conversation and give other examples to show it wasn't just for the specific incident. I never mentioned their mom.

"so if he stops going in the second month is the psychiatrist required to contact someone to let them know he stopped ?"

Nope.  That is a problem.  One would think that he'd hopefully think in the long term about it - we'd still find out eventually. 

I am seeing extinction bursts already.  My kids, unfortunately, are both under 5, so I have to be a little more careful.  They can't really tell me if something is wrong, and can't defend themselves. 

I have accepted that he is probably not going to do something extreme - but I still worry constantly that he *could*.  At least he takes them to his parents' house.

I may have to have my L send his therapists the agreement we signed so they know he is supposed to follow their advice.

I would do that too.

The thing is that psychiatrists aren't dumb -- they know it's possible their client isn't taking his medication, even when your ex says he is. My guess is that they are trying to stay out of the middle of this. They want to practice medicine, not law, and probably don't want to be subpoenaed or have to testify. If it comes to that, they know they can sit on the witness stand and say that they have no way to know if their client is taking his meds, unless he tells them otherwise. If he says he is taking his medication, that's what they put in their report.

But still, I would let them know. Hopefully they don't see him as a potential legal headache and deny services, or try to get him to go somewhere else.

LnL

Well, the he'd either have to do the right thing and follow their recommendations, or realize he can't send us a letter next summer - and hopefully he'd get in line and do the right thing.

OK, so today he sent me an email saying his parents aren't able to supervise this weekend.  However, he's already off supervision.  Doesn't he realize this? Maybe he can't emotionally handle the kids this weekend, so that's a signal.  Sounds ok to me in the short term.  However... .obviously he's having weird delusions.  I may just end up having to go back to court to ask for someone to monitor the situation.  I don't know what else to do.  What do you do if you are co-parenting with a mentally ill spouse but he hasn't technically made a threat or done anything?  

I try to figure this stuff out with my ex too. I think psychosis/delusional thinking adds a whole other level of head scratching.

The thing that really sucks with court is that they aren't in the business of making the other parent better. They're in the business trying to resolving disputes. It seems like court is more about reacting to things that have happened than preventing something from happening.

so today he sent an email saying his parents aren't able to supervise this weekend... .So agree with him and let him know when the next weekend is. Say something like  "Okay, the children can stay with me this weekend and you can see them on such and such date (the next date he is scheduled to see the kids) . "      If he does this on a regular basis you have a trail to show if you ever need to. Don't try to make sense of it.

He followed up with, "So do I have your permission to take them unsupervised this weekend?"

I have a few thoughts. 

I can say no, but obviously he will then ask why.

I can do what you suggested and say, ok skip this one and we can talk about the next one

I can ask him why he is asking me (which I prefer, so I can at least get a little more insight)

I can ask, "Are you asking because you need a little help?  I will say no this time and then we can talk about the future."

I can hold off and ask my lawyer to talk to his lawyer.  At this point, considering his behavior last time, I am concerned about him taking them this weekend - not because he may hurt them, but because maybe he was asked by his lawyer to ask this so he coudl set a legal precedent after he behaved how he did last week.

Problem is, if I engage lawyers, maybe he is only doing this whole thing to provoke me into more engagement?

But it seems that by trying to handle this myself, without lawyers or a parent coordiantor, I am in line for more trouble down the road.

I can just say  no in a coy way but then he may say I'm denying him parenting time.

OK, what would you guys do?  David and LnL, you are so helpful and I'm curious... .

I have a letter to my L ready to go (so costly!)

I do think we need a parent coordinator asap, and someone needs to talk to his psychiatrist to find out what's going on.  Only my L can accomplish that. 

How about, "I prefer that you not take care of the kids without supervision."

Just that.

Then ball's in his court.

lnl has a much better reply. Put the ball in his court and let him reply. It is minimal engagment and in these kinds of circumstances you are also setting a boundary and a precedent.

lnl's reply also is saying everything you are concerned about but in a less threatening manner so it has the potential to not be a trigger for him.

I'd like to point out that from the legal situation you describe, you are not legally able to either grant or deny "permission" for his unsupervised access to your kids.

I think lnl's answer is a good one--it doesn't put you on record either way, and doesn't set any precedent like that to later deal with, and puts the ball in his court.

Remember--he is the one who decided to tell you that his parents couldn't supervise in the first place!

The kids are sick now, so he may not take them anyway, but that's great advice from the 3 of you.  Thank you.

So I am very stressed and anxiety filled today.  I feel like my exH is the type who would get depressed that he can't engage me, and he may hurt himself.  Or hurt the kids.  Or whatever.  I know I may just be imagining things or just scared because I love the kids and they are under 4 and I have a loss of control when they are at his place.  But he does scare me when he sends me things like ":)o you grant permission for me to have unsupervised visitation? My parents won't be there."  It's kind of weird.

I guess I should see my shrink... .but what if I'm worried with good reason?  I am kicking myself for letting him off the hook when I had him under supervised.  It wouldn't have lasted forever but I could have asked for a psych eval and more things while we had it.  I was worried it would trigger him worse and spend all our money for nothing, and not prove anything anyhow, but now that seems really dumb.

I asked my lawyer if she has advice but she hasn't gotten back to me.  It's only been three hours since I mailed her and she coudl be in court.  I don't know.  I feel ilke I want a long-term solution and there really aren't any.  I just am going to be nervous all my life.  

Is it a normal instinct to worry this much?  Seems like I find a few people on here who are scared when their kids are with their ex, but most seem not to be.  

When ex left in 2007 the boys were 4.5 and 8.5 years old. I was extremely concerned for their wellbeing. I weighed around 220. I went down to 170 in about 6 months. It was the most stressful time in my life.

I found a T, after several tries, that was a fit for me. I focused on the kids and tried to find ways to help them. I talked to the school counselors and told them my concerns for the kids.          Both boys are very different and I understood that and knew them fairly well. I adjusted my style to accomodate them even more. Ex views all kids as the same and doesn't go beyond what is in her head. That was and is a great advantage for me. When either boys feels he is being heard he responds in kind.

The boys are now 11.5 and 16. I still have concerns but I have learned to accpt things for what they are. I also think I did a good job of guiding them (raising them) for the last five years. We have a good relationship and they talk to me about anything that is on their mind. They are afraid to discuss things with their mom becasue of retaliation if they say the wrong thing.

I trust that our boys know what to do in case something terribly wrong happens at their moms.

Kicking yourself for a "mistake" you made in the past isn't going to change things or help you or the kids. Learn from it and continue learning. My favorite saying from this experience is , "that which does not destroy you makes you stronger." I'll be damned if I will let my ex's issues destroy me or our kids.

And yes I am still concerned when they are with her but I do have more trust that they will know what to do.

I went to back to school night last night for S11. Ex showed up and I maintained my distance. She sat in S11's desk and I sat in the back of the class. When she left I checked his desk out. He had a paper that his teacher had them all do. It was titled how well do you know your parents. One of the questions was, what is your mom and dads favorite thing to do. He wrote that dad likes to take a 30 minute rest after playing with him outside. I don't have the energy I used to have and he was spot on. He then said that mom likes to brag to everyone how great she is. He was spot on with that one to. I felt shocked at first that he wrote that. Then I realized he was being truthful. I felt bad for him but I also realized it is what it is. I now am wondering whether that is from anger or simple observation. He will have the paper today and I plan on talking to him. I figure we will start with the first answer and go through the entire page. I will be listening a lot and saying little. He was at his moms last night and I am sure she won't say anything to him. She can't have a conversation like that with anyone since a conversation like that would trigger her. She will probably just bury it somewhere in her head. The most I expect from her is that she will buy him something to make herself feel good.

That's odd; sounds like you have a perceptive kid!

Sometimes I think it's different when dealing with women than with men, but I can see having the same fears.  Women seem as likely to harm their kids (emotionally, physically, whatever) as men do.

I keep going back and forth over whether to do all kinds of court stuff (psych eval, etc.) or if I'm just trying to assuage my anxieties.  I don't quite know the answer.

I think it's normal, momtara. Nothing has made me more anxious than when someone or something thwarts my maternal instincts to protect my son. Your instincts are likely to be stronger because your kids are more defenseless, dependent, and vulnerable. Also, your ex experiences psychosis in what seems to be a fairly persistent way. Same with mine. They are not just responding to feelings as facts, which is a hallmark of BPD. They are not passing the reality test. So your fears are founded, imo.

But it's also important to recognize the damage that anxiety and stress and worry do to us, and to try and contain it as much as possible. Otherwise we pass this kind of coping to our kids, and if our goal is to protect our kids and raise healthy children, then it's on us to swing for the fences and try to go for the healthiest goal we can imagine, for ourselves, and by extension for our kids too.

People self-soothe in so many different ways when it comes to fear-based feelings. That, to me, is the core tragedy with BPD. Most of us self-soothe in ways that aren't as bad as BPD, but they aren't exactly healthy either. Usually, the thing to watch for is uncertainty -- how exactly do you respond to it? Sounds like your go-to is anxiety. What are you doing with the anxiety? How is it helping you manage the situation? How is it helping you make better decisions? I eventually learned that it didn't do much to help me other than get me to pay attention to the issue. Once anxiety had my attention, I tended to spin and spin and spin. I had trouble sleeping, I lost weight, I couldn't focus on being present and connected emotionally with my son. My T helped me learn to focus on the uncertainty. What was I uncertain about? What part of the dynamic did I have control over? What was out of my control? I think that's why so many people here say to let go of the outcome and to focus on the things that you can control, which is usually your behavior. Focusing on someone else's behavior gives us this phony feeling that we're controlling the uncertainty, it makes us feel less afraid of it. But it doesn't work that way, especially with someone as ill as your exH.

I'm not saying it's easy to focus on the uncertainty and try to manage your worry and anxiety. And I'm not saying you shouldn't do anything -- just pay careful attention to what part of the anxiety is working, if it even is working, and start to look carefully at what the uncertainty is about. That's why I wrote a long time ago in one your posts about the psychotic episode N/BPDx had. I thought he was going to kill himself and then kill S13. I walked into the belly of my greatest fear that night and the weeks after. When I came out of that experience, I had this entirely new resolve. I grew a backbone, not just asserting myself, but in how I was going to live going forward. It wasn't a choice I went looking for -- it happened to me. I literally could not keep that level of anxiety and fear going. That level of stress would be the death of me. Not to mention I could not function well as S13's parent. He needed me to be present, so that's what I decided to do.

Thanks.  That means a lot.

I wish my anxiety had told me to just do everything when I had the chance (like you told me!) ask for a psych eval and stay strong.  In fact, I got intimidated, thought maybe I could control the situation, and let a lot of my case drop.  The prospect of putting exH under supervised visitation again isn't likely and would also seem bad faith unless he really does something bad.  There are still things I can do legally, but for now I kind of have to sit still.  Or actually, I can file for contempt based on the last incident and try to fight.  Something is not letting me do that.  It's a lot of work - but that's a stupid reason not to do it.  A bigger reason is just that maybe I'd be doing it all out of anxiety.  I don't know what's right anymore.  Even choosing to answer an email from ex forces me into hours of analysis and decision making.  I'm tired of it.  

LandL, one thing that may have changed you, though, was that you were worried for a long time that something would happen - and finally, it did.  It was probably a godsend in some ways because now you could act.  It wasn't as bad as you thought, but it was bad.  Finally you had something concrete to respond to.   I am waiting for such a gift - something that allows me to protect the kids better without having to see them hurt, something concrete to give me direction.  I filed a restraining order once and didn't back down and I got exH out of the house.  I was given a gift this summer when the parent coordinator urged me to file an emergency motion, and I did, and then his doctors defended him and no one really said to me, "They're probably full of crap, you can still win this... ." and I thought I had to save face and bow out gracefully.  I can't really blame anyone else though.  I just have no one in my everyday life to guide me, no lawyer friends or even too many general friends I can talk to.  Coming here helps.

I guess I can look at the fact that there was a time exH was not on medication, especially after the restraining order was lifted, and the kids were ok in his care.  But still, all that time and until recently, he thought we might get back together.  That was a strong incentive for him to get help.  He was often telling me how the medicine was working and helping him.   I think one of the reasons he dropped his medication was that I started setting boundaries and now he doesn't think we'll get back together.

I called my T and he can see me Monday.   My lawyer hasn't responded to my email in which I sent her my ex's odd emails.  I wish she'd say "Yeah, that's concerning" or "just hang tight" or something to give me a little direction.  I need an unbiased perspective who's familiar with the law.

It's true that the psychotic episode did give me something to work with, but it's also true that it still took a lot of moving parts to get what I wanted. Even then I didn't get the whole thing -- that didn't happen until N/BPDx didn't exercise his visitation. Over no control of my own, and in complete opposition to what the court granted him, he gave me the one thing I wanted! After the psychotic episode, I filed an ex parte motion, then we ended up with a PC. She worked with us for a year. During that time, N/BPDx still got visitation with S13, which stunned me. Then N/BPDx threatened the PC. Then his lawyer withdrew from the case. The PC called for a meeting with the judge and testified that she could not work with N/BPDx, and she trains PCs in our district, and didn't think our case was suitable for a PC. N/BPDx needed a judge. By then, there were a lot of very distorted emails and court appearances from N/BPDx.

So yes, the psychotic episode was a watershed event emotionally for me, but then things crawled through the system and it took thousands of dollars and a lot of fortuitous things to happen before I got where I am now. These things are separate -- how we respond to the fears, and how we deal with the courts.

I know it's hard.  :'( My heart really does break for you -- this is so exhausting and trying, and you're raising your young kids not only as a single parent, but you also have to deal with courts and lawyers and psychiatrists, and a disordered and delusional ex.

Don't beat yourself up about it taking a long time to write emails to lawyers or to your ex -- it's part of the strain. That's why you have friends here, to help you if we can. People here understand exactly the gauntlet you're running, trying to balance asserting your boundaries with concern for your kids, second-guessing the court system, trying to get lawyers to impart their advice, as opaque as it can be, meanwhile the expense racking up.

Be gentle with yourself about the worry you feel, but just know that there are some steps you can take toward feeling less overwhelmed and anxious. It's the hardest journey to take, but that path is always there. You can walk it at any time. At some point, you will get there, probably exactly when you are ready, and all of this will feel right.

Thanks.

That's very helpful.  You've been so encouraging and understanding and I appreciate it.

That's crazy that your ex still got visitation!  It must have been scary for you to go to court, show all those things, and still he could have your son in his hands.  I wonder if his parents were involved too?  I think my ex secretly wants to avoid seeing the kids some weekends, but his family pushes him unfortunately.

At least a PC was there to help... .we start with a new one in November.  I put it off so that we could try to work together ourselves.  Looks like we need the PC sooner!

And I have a good judge. 


He is estranged from his family -- he split them black. Initially, the person who pushed for more visitation was his L. He was a father's rights advocate who thought I was trying to wreck N/BPDx's relationship with his child. The L insisted on more time than N/BPDx wanted, or could handle.


With severely mentally ill people who also happen to be high-functioning, I think having a third-party professional involved is really helpful. My PC also took calls on the weekend, which is when I always felt the most panicky. Usually, something flared up Friday night, and visitation was supposed to happen the next day. It was comforting to know I could call someone else who had a lot of perspective about both custody/courts and mental illness. Even when she was uncertain, I found it comforting to recognize that I wasn't the only one.

That's great that your PC was so helpful. 

So my exH wrote back and said that the reason he asked about supervision is that I had told him he needs at least 1 parent to supervise this weekend.  Odd, I never said that.  So he asked again for my permission to take them unsupervised.  I said I'd prefer to have a person there.  We'll see what he says.  I have to tread delicately.  I think he wants to show that he can do it on his own. 

Maybe a simple question, "Please let me know if you are taking your medications so I am less anxious about this."

Give him some hope, not too overbearing a question, not directive.

Good idea.  I am trying to fish around.  Unfortunately, that's engagement, but I'm doing it anyway.  I first asked why he thinks I can give him permission, and he said, "Two months ago your lawyer went to court to get me on supervised visitation and so now I'm on it."  He completely doesn't remember that we signed an agreement a month ago and he's seen the kids unsupervised since then.  Now I am really scared.  Should I be?  Am I getting too wound up?  He's definitely mentally ill.  After our divorce, he forgot that he didn't have to pay the cable bill anymore and got upset at me and asked why I hadn't sent him the bill.  Seems like the same thing, he forgot we signed a consent order!  I don't want to take advantage of this and tell him no, you can't take the kids, but I'm afraid of over eagerly saying yes... .because maybe I need to go back to court next week and ask for supervised again, or a psych eval.

Right now, with his delusional thinking, it's not really about engagement. He is leaving a document trail for you to use, to back up your actions if you need. He is thinking something that is advantageous to you situation, and he seems to be unaware enough to put these thoughts and beliefs in an email. If it were my situation, I would coax it out.

I experience similar delusional/psychotic stuff with my ex, momtara. N/BPDx even went so far as to file a motion for contempt against me without any basis in reality. It's very surreal to see him stand up in court and say that the judge didn't order visitation, when... .um... .the document is right there. The judge who ordered the visitation is sitting right in front of him. Me and my lawyer, and the clerk were all there. I don't know exactly how this distorted stuff is different than straight-up BPD, but apparently it is. I guess the biggest difference is that it isn't about feelings=facts, it's a severe distortion of reality that is separate from how they feel.

I interpret my ex's psychosis as a deep-rooted belief seated somewhere in his psyche that he knows he is not safe to be around. Somewhere, he knows there is something wrong, and so he has voices or psychotic episodes that -- in a very crazy way -- help him do the right thing. I know he feels worried about being around S13, but the BPD makes it impossible for him to just give up the fight and admit he is ill.

When my ex does this stuff, I let email capture everything I can. Then I use it in court.

The most recent thing that happened is N/BPDx sending a letter to S13. Inside was a book mark, a letter six, and a star. That's all. The kind of bits of stuff you find wedged deep in the creases of your couch.

My son's middle name is my last name, and on the outside of the letter, N/BPDx had written S13's full name, except he "x'ed" out his middle name.

That, and my L said that the judge won't start court in session until the bailiff is in the courtroom, and pointed out that the bailiff stands right next to N/BPDx's table when it's our turn. Every single time we're in court, I watch the bailiff walk across the room and stand between N/BPDx and the clerk.

I picked a real winner. 

Letting ex show that he has issues with reality is a good thing for you and the kids. The more you have of that the better you will be in court when you decide.

I waited an entire year to build up enough evidence. Then ex dragged things out another year. I continued building more evidence.

We currently have a temp modification in our custody order. I am still building evidence that ex is giving me. I am making things completely clear that things will not change with ex since she is still doing the same things she has been doing for the last two years. The one thing that is in my favor vs your situation is our boys are older.

The courts move slowly and that isn't going to change.

I agree with lnl about "a deep-rooted belief seated somewhere in the psyche that he knows he is not safe to be around." I have had the same feeling with my ex several times. I honestly believe that she is giving me this evidence to make sure the court gets it right this time. I know it sounds twisted but it is one of the only ways that I can make sense of some of her behaviors when I actually try to make sense of them.

I am wondering if I should let him have the unsupervised or not!  If he secretly wants me to say no, maybe I should just say no.  But if I tell him no and he still insists that he's taking them, it makes things worse.  I think I am going to say that the most recent court order says he can, and it's not up to me.  

The kids are sick, and hopefully he won't take them  anyway.

What else should I say?  If he comes to the house and acts crazy, I will hold them.

You don't want to show anything in email that says you are denying him permission to see the kids. Don't give him anything to neutralize his behavior.

What about saying nothing?

Another thing you can do is to repeat what you said before. It feels weird to us, but to people who are boundary busters, it's different. It reinforces what we said, and it shows consistency. "I prefer that the kids do not spend time without having supervision." Or whatever you said before.

Or remind him that the kids are sick.

I think this might be an example of the difference between engaging him and documentation. Engaging him is when you feel compelled to engage, even when it is not necessary. Documenting is when you recognize he cannot control his issues and you interact because it helps you with custody stuff.

So much of what happens to us -- our cases -- comes down to the judge. That's my big takeaway. Sure, we have to have good lawyers, and we need to document, and we should learn to not engage, and all that. But even when we do things 100%, it sure seems like a bad judge can blow that all away.

Your L should be telling you what your judge is like, how she or he rules. Does your L do that?

For example, some judges look at the letter of the law and rule accordingly. They don't want to get caught up in the he-said she-said. Some judges go by gut instinct. They nudge things. Some judges read through everything. Some only read the last thing. Some will talk to kids in chambers. Some won't. Even in the same state, in the same county, in the same court room, the judges do things so different.

My L doesn't tell me anything.  She's tough and good in court, if it comes to that, but has little time for me.  I should have done things differently.  I guess it's time to get a new L.  Can't seem to find the balance - one who has time and is also confident in court.  I did meet with one a few months ago who said she'd need a $6K retainer to do an emergency order.  It's probably what it cost me anyway.  If my L had given me more confidence I would not be as miserable and scared right now.

I don't think my exH is going to give me another opportunity to get an emergency order.  He will be angry, but he stops short of a threat or something else.  I mean, eventually, he may give me something, but it could take a year.  I had a chance to ask for more and I blew it.  Now I have to wait for something 'bad' to happen.  I could keep documenting too, I guess.  Well,  ya never know.

I am trying to contact my attorney.  ExH is still sending me emails asking if he can have unsupervised visitation.  I didn't realize he could be so sick.  This is three days in a row he's asking and doesn't remember he signed a subsequent order.  I'm asking my L if I should let him take them or hold off.  I don't want to break the law because that's worse.  If I don't hear from her, I will probably let him take them but will have to deal with the situation on Monday.  I almost feel like I made him worse with all this court stuff and stress.  He is blocking out the last order because it was so tense to have the negotiations.  He wants a yes or no answer about whether he has my permission.

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