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So I have been NC for 9 months with my uNPD bro and uBPD mom. Both these people tortured me as a child I still have bad PTSD. It will always be NC with bro. However, I did respond to my BPDm constant charming. My question is this, am I wasting my time here? Because the two attempts I’ve made have been met with angry, accusing demanding responses. A response that clearly says “You’ll pay for this.” A response that assumes I have no choice but to do what she says. All I’m trying to do is set some health boundaries, so we can go LC. Back to how it was, can never happen as it’s clearly bad for my PTSD.

My BPD hates e-mails, because it leaves an audit trail and disallows her favourite excuses such as “that’s not what I meant” or “don’t be so sensitive”. I want to establish contact, as I’ve had reports she’s not looking after my dad properly. She’s also working hard to convince everyone “he’s losing his memory”. Which is exactly what she did to me as a child. So all this suggests she’s up to something. My BPDm and NPD bro are both way up the scale, both firmly pathological.

I had considered getting a mobile for my dad – but my BPD would not allow it, and he would be too worried about her finding out. She is really scary and doesn’t except my PTSD, she says “it's all in your head”.  When I ran away from home aged 12, I was away for a week. My BPDm convinced my dad, that no one should pander to my antics. So no one was allowed to looked for me or call the Police. The charming that got me to respond was she had my dad handwrite a letter apologising for being a bad parent, and not being around. Despite me telling him that my PTSD has nothing to do with him. My BPDm also enclosed a typed piece explaining she isn’t to blame for parenting mistakes, as she was isolated (absolutely no friends) and had too much house work and was badly informed by the Dr Spock’s parenting book.

Hi Happy.  I feel baldly that you are in the position of worrying about your dad and being torn between contacting your family and risking abuse or not contacting them.  Either way is a tough position to be in.   

You ask if they ever negotiate.  I think it depends on the people involved and what you hope to achieve.  It will also depend on your expectations.  Given what you know of them, is it realistic to expect to be able to walk into the house and have a chat with your father, be able to check things out in terms of his care, and discuss that care in a reasonable way with your mother and brother?

I went back and read some of your earlier posts to get a better feel for what you are dealing with.  I think it is safe to say that you can expect a few 'challenges' if you do approach your family.  You ask if it would be a waste of your time and again, I say it depends on what you are hoping to accomplish.  Again, if your goal is to have a nice smooth conflict free visit and chat, ask yourself if that is a reasonable expectation based on what you know of them.  I don't really think you are expecting that otherwise you would not be asking these questions. 

So what type of negotiation do you have in mind?  What are you hoping to be able to say and what result would you like to see happen? 

I had to ask myself the same questions with my family.  It is not an easy position to be in and I think we all have to do what we feel is right for us.  I found myself wanting to make demands that certain things be done (like keeping the bathrooms cleaner, etc) and realizing that I had no right to make any such demand especially because I was not willing to go visit and clean for them.  I was not going to rescue them.  (the bathrooms were not gross, they just were not as clean as I would like   ) They were old, had their own system worked out and even tho I saw it as being very damaging to the both of them and my dad was being taken advantage of and emotionally abused by my mother (nothing new there of course), I left them to deal with things on their own.   I was prepared to step in on the big things if needed and if they asked, but other than that, I was staying out of it.

I am not saying to stay NC with them.  Not at all.  If you feel pulled to get in touch with them, do it.  Just be realistic about it and be prepared to walk away (I know you have done that in the past).  Remember that you can only control what you do and that boundaries are about you and not about setting rules out for how your dad should be treated.  This can be a good experience for you, especially with your PTSD, if you watch and see what comes up for you.  It won't be easy, but it can be worthwhile, at least for you.  And who knows, you might actually be able to communicate with your family.    

In my situation, I found that it was important for me to speak about certain issues so that I was okay with myself.  I was very aware that my parents were going to die eventually and I wanted to make sure that I did what was right for me at the time so I would have no regrets when I looked back later on.  I have been looking back at some of the choices I made.  I can't say that I am at peace with all of them, but that is, perhaps, another thread.   

So, Happy, what do you think? 

No.

I realized my answer may have looked flippant... but it was not meant to be.

Your pain is real and  uniquely shared  by all of the survivors on this forum.

I have felt all the ways you describe. You ( a person without BPD)  craves a normal human connection, but a BP brain is broken in the parts that govern human relationships=the give and take that negotiation is all about.

Negotiation cannot happen when one party can never admit to being wrong or flawed in any way.

There were times in my life in different situations  when I thought that my BPDs &BPDm were actually being reasonable

and actually negotiating.    It also seemed once or twice  that a problem actually got resolved in this manner

But... and this is a big BUT:

In every single instance the agreement, solution, pact was VERY SHORTLY FORGOTTEN and/or DISMISSED AS BEING A FIGMENT OF MY IMAGINATION!

So in my case anyway, this has never ever worked and so I have adopted a policy/and that is:

I do not negotiate with terrorists.

As far as my uBPDm is concerned, words like negotiate, compromise, & cooperation only mean she doesn't get exactly what she wants, and therefore are 'non-starters'.

Example #1: In one of our recent T sessions, in the spirit of cooperation that T was trying to encourage, I offered to fly to the east coast (from the west) to visit M. This brightened her mood and she suddenly became very responsive. When I added the condition that I wished to stay in a hotel during the visit, she shut down and said, "Forget it, don't bother".

T challenged her on this, saying, "So it's all or nothing?". M replied, "Of course... .It's all or nothing!".

Example #2: M owns two houses she has been trying to sell for many years--she is broke due to her own circumstance, as the following demonstrates: There are several reasons why she hasn't been able sell either house. One is that she is asking 20-30% above the market values (as indicated by Zillow). And two, she won't enlist a Realtor to help her. She is states that it's because they charge too much, but she has spent tens and tens of thousands of dollars on property taxes and mortgage interest over these past many years--well beyond what a Realtor's fees would have been. I am quite certain that, in general, estate agents make suggestions/demands and want more control over how things should progress than M is willing to endure.

I have many, many similar examples of this type of behavior. I think that it is due to her misplaced sense of identity combined with (or due to) the fact that she possesses no understanding of how people [external to her] really think and deal with reality.

Happy, it's not really you your BPDm is interacting with, it's some vague, idealized/vilified construction of you. I know how difficult it can be to deal with. It always feels like you are fighting with phantoms and never confronting the issues at hand.


Cheers,

Jema

Harri – very helpful. You mentioned having no regrets and I guess that’s why I’m trying to link up with my dad. Unfortunately this also means also with my BPDm. I note many on this board seem to want a relationship with their BPD, but mine were so abusive NC for ever would do with them. :)

I realise my BPDm must win at all costs. So me going NC and suggesting e-mail is her not winning. So I stated again, e-mail or nothing but this time gave her a get out clause “if you don’t want this why not let dad.” It worked. Well I say it worked, my BPDm has pretended to be dad when e-mailing before. Their writing styles are diametrically opposite.

The Amazing thing was, when I got her angry e-mail and assumed I would have to cut all ties with the whole tribe (as the lady is not for turning) I felt so ill. But when I realised I had established a boundary all the stress drained at the speed of light. Similarly in my business. I’ve gone through a process of cutting out all the high stress/ low paying customers. I may now have less money but I’m more at peace. Well worth the money.

sparrowfarfrom home loved your one word answer. Kind of effective.

Jema loved your examples over the house sale. My BPDm and bro won’t take advise, and my goodness does it cost them (Ha!).  So I guess the healing just take way longer than I anticipated. Two feet forward one back.  :)

LOL HappyC!  You did it!  You now have access to your dad and fortunately you are wise enough to know and intelligent enough to identify when it may indeed be your mom writing to you!  You have this covered!  And to have reduced your stress?  That is wonderful.  :)  I just wrote to someone else that we tie ourselves into knots trying to communicate, reason, negotiate, etc.  It is crazy making just trying to take care of a simple matter.


It does take a long time, but I do not see any backward steps in this scenario.  any time you speak up for yourself, regardless of the outcome, you are taking forward steps!

Well done HappyC!   :)

No, same as Sparrow 

My late mother's tactic was "take no prisoners." There was no middle ground, there was no compromise, there was no other point of view, there was no way to live in her world without succumbing in toto to her vile, hurtful abusiveness.

Negotiations are for two parties trying to reach a middle space where everyone gains something, no one loses. Right?

With four adult children over the years trying to say the same damned thing, she refused to acknowledge that anyone other than herself had a right to speak, live, dream as they chose.

Be careful.

CPTSD is insidiously practically chromosomal for us ACONs... .

My best to you, Happy. 

I'm really glad you've shared what you're going through, HappyChappy. I know it's hard to feel like there's no way to get the result we want or even ask for it. We can do our best to be compassionately assertive; still, in any relationship--even a healthy one--we may come to an impasse. Have you had a look at our workshop on Radical Acceptance for family members (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=89910.0)? It helped me a lot to be able to accept that my parents are who they are and not who I wish they would be. I wonder if it might be helpful to you in this situation as well.  Your mother is who she is. It sounds like she may not be capable of hearing you or caring what your needs are.

To more directly respond to your question, people with BPD are prone to black-and-white thinking. Their feelings also influence how they perceive and interpret the facts, so what is true for them one day might not feel true for them the next. Add to that other tendencies such as projection, a deep sense of shame, and a need to feel in control that is fueled by an intense fear of abandonment, and that can make it very difficult to resolve even seemingly mundane conflicts. I do think we need to be careful about overgeneralizing with black-and-white thinking of our own by saying "People with BPD (pwBPD) never negotiate" or "All pwBPD do this." Depending on their mood, of course there are times when someone with BPD could negotiate--I have seen my BPDm do it on minor issues. However, yes, BPD traits can make normal negotiations in relationships very difficult to achieve, especially if the issue at hand feels somehow threatening.

Also, even though it definitely feels like a battle sometimes, I find it more helpful to frame a situation in terms of how I will live my values such as respect for myself and others rather than who is "winning" or "losing." The real battles are with myself and not with some external force.

Would it help you to talk about the specifics of what you're dealing with? What have you asked for, and what is your mother asking of you?

Wishing you peace,

PF