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My 10 yr old daughter (who isn't stbx's daughter) asked me yesterday whether I still loved BPDstbx.

I told her "I still loved the other man, the one who was kind, not this one."

And she looked sad and replied "Yes, the one who used to ask me what wedding dress I was going to chose for my mummy... ."

I thought of this later on and this is what I came up with:

The man I love still IS GONE. Whether he was real, pretend, game or a role he played doesn't matter. He's dead, that's what matters. I was so much in love with this man that I broke my happy family for him. I loved him so much that I was pregnant after a few months into the relationship. I loved him so much that I almost said yes to his proposal.

But the man I see today is not the man I loved, it's someone else. It helps to see things this way.

The man I loved is forever gone.

Tears welled up as I read this. I think this is definitely the right approach. For so long I've had the "only if" thoughts, a little piece of me hoping that all the bad stuff could just go away and we could be back in the idealisation phase. A wanting to believe that the bad stuff was not really them but was in fact their illness and to just get back to their best self, like it was in the early days. It's a losing battle, to think of the person as having died is a much better way. This might sound silly but I'm thinking it might be a good idea to take some flowers to the exact spot where we first met and hugged, perhaps with a card, and leave it there. To put her to rest so to speak. Thanks so much for the post.

A few weeks ago (during a short pause in the storm), after making love, he was calm and unexpectedly "back to normal" and stroking my back nicely. And he said "The real me is this... .the tender person. Not the other one, the violent one who destroys everything."

And then he spent the rest of the night talking about his deepest feelings and how hard it was for him to live with those terrible emotions and thoughts.

At the time, I never imagined that 3 weeks later he would go that mad and evil.

I know... .my story must be confusing and so different in spirit and tone from my first message.

But this is why I said the man I love is gone.

Indyan and Bauie: sad, beautiful and so heart felt. I would add that, in my case, I am dead to him. He has cut me off completely as if I no longer exist. I like your thinking, Indyan, that to you he is functionally dead. And Bauie, I love the idea of memorializing her death as you would with the loss of any loved one. That will send me to Barnes and Noble tomorrow and unfortunately court, before this all is over.

Yes, the woman I married 27 years ago died at some point quite a while back. Something else now inhabits her body seeking to destroy me. I'll grieve the loss of my bride; I'll fight the alien to the death.

I got to the point where I had to tell myself the same thing. The man I loved and married has gone. He no longer exists. I mourn him, I dream about getting back with him, but the man I married has changed so much and my lovely husband is now all gone. It is so hard to accept but it is the truth. I'd see glimpses towards the end and that would give me hope that he could come back - but they were just glimpses and now they have all gone too. The illness takes over, the irrational thoughts take over and the person has gone.

It's weird, because it's really like an imaginary person that is being created when you live with a pwBPD.

When my wife left me early this summer she turned up a few weeks later and collected the most necessary things like clothes and shoes. The rest she left and paid no interest in. I spent this summer sorting through her boxes and stuff, giving some to charity and throwing most of it away. Things she had carefully packed and wrapped in paper, but never cared to unpack.

They are never the same long enough to pay interest. It was like cleaning the house after a dead person. Awful, but enlightening.

I've said the same many times to myself. I really struggle with trying to understand who I really knew.  The man I thought I knew is dead and gone.  I have no idea who the new man is.  Despite knowing they lack identity, I wish I could remember someone.  Its like night and day.  Yet we here have remained the same person. Who has been erased.

I am coming out of/in the middle of the most definitive split my wife that I/we have ever had. It's almost been one year. It took everything from me financially, spiritually and emotionally to save our son and get him to live with his biological father. I don't know how I have survived this year. Homeless for 6 months, protecting my son and trying to keep myself safe.

I feel like she had died. The person who is there now is not the wife and mother that I loved, married and lived with for almost 8 years. She looks differently, eats differently, has a new job and moved across the country.

I'm still picking up pieces. But I don't think I have ever felt more whole.

Since we broke up three months ago, my mind has buzzed incessantly with questions like:

• Was it real?



• Was she real?



• Did she feel love, rather than need?



• Does she have regrets?



• Does she miss me or think of me?

I have come to understand that I will never get real answers to these questions from her.  I have instead decided to provide them for myself.  Like Indyan, I have come to think of my UxBPDgf as "dead".  She has moved on and found my replacement, who is a very different person from me and a very different person from the woman I was with.  She is a very, very fundamentally different person from the one I knew and still love.  The person I loved does not seem to exist anymore.

Deciding to think of her as dead has been liberating.  It has also helped me find some answers, that perhaps may not be perfectly true, but I can reframe them in a way that I can live with.   

Q:  Was it real?

A:  Yes, the relationship was real while it existed.  I experienced it and it was real to me.

Q: Was she real?

A:  The person I fell in love with was real at that time.  She was beautiful, brilliant, loving, sexy, and wonderful and I know I loved her.  But when my UxBPDgf left, the person I knew "died".  My UxBPDgf (the physical person) is alive today, but my girlfriend, my lover, my friend and partner in crime is not.  She was real then, but she no longer lives.

Q:  Did she love, rather than need?

A:  The person I loved did love me and she demonstrated it, at that time.  I felt it and lived it.  When she "died" her love died with her and I will never experience it again.  But I did experience it.  It was real to me.

Q:  Does she have regrets?

A:  If the woman I loved were still alive, she would have regrets, but that woman isn't alive anymore.  She cannot have regrets.

Q:  Does she think of me or miss me?

A:  If the woman I loved were still alive and we were separated by distance and time, she would miss me and think of me.  While we were together and separated geographically (it was a 2 year long distance relationship) she missed me and would think of me.  She said so in text, over the phone, and in person. But since that beautiful creature died, she cannot think of me or miss me.

Having accepted that she has died, I did a series of small pilgrimages to places that were significant to me in the relationships:  the places where we used to go to eat; the trails and parks we hiked; the movie theater we went to; the airport terminal where I used to pick her up when she visited; the art museum.  At each place I've sat down, recalled that day and how it felt, told her I love her and miss her, and understand and forgive her spirit for dying and leaving me behind.

A little too fanciful?  Is it willfully delusional on my part?  Perhaps.  But what I have come to understand it that my experience was real to me.  I understand that the physical person and the persona I still love and miss are two different entities.  "Mourning her death" has allowed me to begin the grieving process for the loss I've experienced. 

It is still difficult at times and I am not through this yet.  When I miss her or a memory is triggered, I can grow sad and still cry even. At those moments I speak to the woman I knew, as if speaking to her spirit.  Understanding the difference between the physical person and the persona I knew is giving me a little peace, a little bit of closure.  I may have had to give it to myself in a different way than I would have wanted, but  the passing days are getting better.

Ugh, yes... I came to the same conclusion weeks ago on another board. The person I fell in love with, during the idealization phase, never really existed and is now gone for ever. Mourn it like a death, rather then pine for it like an ex.

and fwiw... My story is similar, 4 days before she dumped me on my head, she was showing my kids where we were going to married, and talking about their role in the wedding. The fact that my kids were hurt, badly, really adds to the cauldron of despair. I failed in my # 1 duty, which was protecting my children. Sucks. People tell me no, but towards the end I was siding with her against my kids when they weren't meeting her requirements. Even forbid them to talk about the mother around the house, telling them it hurts my gf and she is their family too (as i was instructed too).  I was holding on to the delusional that there was a chance to return to the good times, but the bigger doormat I became, the more she wiped her feet.

Oh yeah she's dead all right. I really don't recognize the person i fell in love with anymore. I'm kinda glad about that as it helps me to move on.

I'm not sure how to reckon uBPDh dead, when both the good him and the bad him live inside the same body, and both clearly exist.  I guess in the idealization phase (year one of our 4 years together) he seemed like a different person, but years 2-4 have been a brilliant tapestry of sane and BPD insanity until I don't even know what to think and feel anymore... .What is real?  Who is he?  Who am I?  What on earth? ... .etc... .etc... .

I need a concrete way to wrap my head around all this, and up til this point cannot find one... .

Can anyone shed light on this?  

I too, allowed uBPDh to woo me to the point of being the final straw of breaking up a 17 year marriage (which was struggling, but still)... .and to marrying him, only to become aware of BPD, and the horrors we have faced in the last 3 years... . I feel unsteady, unstable, lack peace, wanting closure of some sort... .where oh where can I get this?

You managed to make me smile with this, thanks  :)

It felt a relief somehow to read these posts.  Many completely echo my own feelings. I used to say about my uBPDexbf that "the person I knew had gone away to a place where I couldn't reach him".  And how desperately I tried to coax him out of that place again, with reassurance of my commitment, expressions of love and support, etc. etc.  So painful and so confusing - I'd never experienced anything like it with any other person.

After our breakup, I said to my exbf once "It would have been a lot easier if you had died".  Harsh, bitter, or strange maybe.  But I think in all honesty, I would have found it a lot easier to cope with a straightforward physical bereavement than with this inexplicable change and withdrawal.

It's harder when there isn't a change in his persona in the rest of his relationships, e.g. work, because he is high-functioning and the disorder really plays itself out mostly in romantic relationships.  Other people still see and know exactly the same person, so it can make me feel like I'm going crazy sometimes, like I'm a fraud, the one who has maybe just got it all wrong ... .

I think you are right, Pets.  It is harder.  My UxBPDgf is very high functioning.  She is successful in her career, she has published a book, she has her own small business on the side, and she is accomplished in many ways.  Her relationships with coworkers may not be affected and she may seem to be the same woman.  But I know the history of her friendships and romantic relationships is littered with little more than ruins and rubble.  Her close, intimate relationships always come to an end.  She has only two long term friends and I think they are still friends with her because they live some distance from her.  Her other friendships and her string of romantic involvements have all failed.

I am willing to bet your BPD is similar.  The disorder kills intimate relationships, not the relationships he has with coworkers or casual acquaintances.  They see the same person because to them, he is the same person. They do not know him as well as you did and they were not as intimate with him as you were.

You are not crazy, nor are you a fraud.  You are just someone who fell in love with a person with BPD.

They painted you black - It takes awhile to release the "love" you had for this person and it even takes longer to release the emotional attachment you had for this person. So much sadness and anger.

Tyyring to make sense of the situation is difficult when they moved on so quickly. The fact they moved on so quickly reaffirms that this person has a disorder - as we are left with the emotions.

Many times I thought I was being irrational and thought this was just my reaction to being rejected as divorce is difficult for anyone. There was no closure! I took a hard close look and used a critical lens to my own suffering and realized that yes, this woman was in fact disordered and will always be disordered.

With suffering comes growth, it takes a while but we will grow.

This would be much easier to get over.

I don't think of mine as dead, I think of him as having been taken over by the monsters that live in his head. I still talk to him, when I journal, I talk to him just about every day. Somehow I think that psychic thing we had is still going on and some far away distant part of him can still hear me.  It's probably not healthy. I know he is never coming back, not the one who loved me, but it's getting me through the worst of all of this.

Thanks Nomad for the support.  It makes this experience a bit less isolating.

Yes, your BPD does sound very similar.  My exbf has had a string of failed intimate relationships - probably more than he ever told me about - he said they are a dangerous maze to him that he doesn't understand.  But no one on the outside would really be aware of this - they just think that he doesn't quite know what he wants in a relationship.

After we broke up, he was also talking about his friendships, how he can go without seeing them or communicating with them for a long time - he admitted that the majority of them were like that.  I guess it's a safe enough distance to not require ongoing vulnerability and commitment.  His friendships seemed to be very much based on him picking up with people just as and when he needed them, rather than being consistent and nurturing their needs, too.

Growing intimacy really did seem to be the enemy in our case - sadly.

I do the same.  I journal most days at the moment, writing to him the things I want to say, but don't have the opportunity to, a) because we are NC now and b) because it would be healthy or lead anywhere

But I find it does help a bit with the whole abandonment and no closure thing when someone just walks away and avoids the "normal" conversations you would have to process the ending of a relationship.

Totally agree, you took the words out of my mouth! The lack of any closure drove me nuts. Think of when a 5 year old has a tantrum, they run away saying "don't want to play with him anymore" When I started to view her as an emotional 5 year old so many things became clear to me. You could never have that conversation with your ex because emotionally they are little children, (try having a conversation with a little child about their emotions)




But I find it does help a bit with the whole abandonment and no closure thing when someone just walks away and avoids the "normal" conversations you would have to process the ending of a relationship.[/quote]

I have tried this but how do you cope if they recycle or even if you just hear stuff about what they sure up to?  My ex even changed his name when we split so he really is a different person to his new family but he isn't dead he still exists and I get reminders of this all the time

The person you feel in love with is dead.What is left is memories that you are mourning. So mourn them. That guy isn't coming back, nor is my girl.

The person they are now might come back, but it won't be the same as the beginning, it will quickly be the same as the ending.

The person you feel in love with is dead.What is left is memories that you are mourning. So mourn them. That guy isn't coming back, nor is my girl.

The person they are now might come back, but it won't be the same as the beginning, it will quickly be the same as the ending.[/quote]
Absolutely perfect in its simplicity; thank you Tim Tom.

The person they are now might come back, but it won't be the same as the beginning, it will quickly be the same as the ending.[/quote]
I think it is hard though when they replace you and when you know that right now, they are sharing that incredibly loving and thoughtful person that they were at the beginning when they were with you with someone else.  Or at least that's how I imagine it works?

That thought hurts - that that person is still underneath somewhere maybe, but they choose to withhold it from you.

That thought does hurt but I don't believe that is what happens.  They have painted us black and there is no turning back from that. It is the illness - I don't believe they have much free will over it. Their own fears take over and they respond the way they do. It might look like they have this great relationship with some-one else but it is the same as the destructive one they had with you. They have painted some-one else white for awhile because they need to see them like this. They will paint them black soon enough and that person will go through the same hell that you did.

The truth is they are not the person we so want them to be, we want them to be this loving, wonderful person we fell for but they are a person with a serious mental illness. That illness takes over all their relationships. We need to mourn what we wanted to have, what we thought we had for a while, but that fantasy is gone. So sad

The person is still there underneath. It's just that it won't resurface until they meet their new supply and it will be reserved for them only.

It's not a choice though, it's their nature. If we think of the BPD as a fickle 5 year old, and many say they suffer from emotional arrest, we can see the behaviors mimic'd on a micro scale

Even see a 5 year old get a new doll they wanted... I always wanted this!, It's the best doll ever! I will always love it! They play with it every waking minute, until they begin to tire of it and more and more the doll is not tended to/played with.  Some dolls they tire of in an hour, others take weeks or months, others are replaced by a new toy,  but they all meet the same fate. Found months later under the couch, dusty, dingy, dirty, missing and arm and it's head on backwards.

Yuck! Is that all we are? A dusty old headless dolly under the couch?

Only if we choose to be, unlike a childs toy, we can get up, dust ourselves off, go outside and live.

Understanding that what happened to us in our ex's nature helps to let go, and accept. Accept them, accept the relationship for what it was; transitory

WOW Pets, this could by my posting, every word of it. Especially the last part where I feel like going crazy, like I'm the fraud. It is so hard to see him still functioning at work or with mutual friends (who don't want to chose between him or me, because he's such a nice guy... .NOT!).

But I'm deciding he's 'dead', because I'm going through all the stages of grieving that come when losing a loved one, especially since there is no closure with my uBPDstbxh.

I've had the initial shock, I've had the anger and now I'm just plain sad, sad, sad.

But after this comes 'acceptance'... .just not right now.

I agree with all of this Pets. Exactly my story as well.

It's not a choice though, it's their nature. If we think of the BPD as a fickle 5 year old, and many say they suffer from emotional arrest, we can see the behaviors mimic'd on a micro scale[/quote]
Probably one of the most fundamental disagreements I have is "it's not a choice." Earlier in the thread, BPD was called a "serious mental illness"--not meaning to be esoteric, but that term is used to describe biologically-based mental illnesses: bipolar and schizophrenia, primarily. If pwBPD have no "choice," how is it they can turn it on and off depending on who they're with? Seems as if this gives them some level of control over their compulsions. My exbfBPD was high functioning, and I saw him plan and strategize to have his "needs" met. As for the 5 year old with the dolly; I was taught respect and discipline for my belongings and would not have received a new dolly after tearing up and discarding my old one. My dog, on the other hand might have torn the dolly up without knowing any better. Somewhere in this discussion, I believe is a need to not only hold ourselves accountable but pwBPD as well.

Me too. They've repeated their patterns over and over again, have seen and been told how much they hurt others, have many chances and options to find real help for themselves, etc., but choose to continue. Hard-wired or not, life could be better than they follow through with. That's the real shame.

That's fair, but they repeat the same patterns over and over. There clearly is something wrong that they are not in control of.

As you said, I think we all need to find harmony with this by any means possible. I choose to see them as a wounded soul, unable to function properly in a relationship. That is sad, there life will likely be filled with heartache masked by antisocial behavior.

I don't fully agree here (again lol sorry), at least w/r to my BPDbf.

First, there is some level of controversy regarding the biological aspect of the disorder, and some doctors do believe there is something wrong with their brains - hence the hereditary trend.

Regarding my bf, he doesn't control himself well with other people either in fact.

He had problems at work a few months ago (he phoned me and I managed to calm him down, he said he was shaking out of tension and about to send everybody packing), he had a terrible fight with his mother in the summer (he broke things in her kitchen during a rage fit and injurded his hand) - and finally, he tried to behave himself the only time my parents saw him in the summer but couldn't hide the fact that he was "abnormally" stressed, kept shaking his legs, smoking loads etc.

I think they struggle with everybody but manage to hide it a lot better when they are dealing with people on a superficial level.

And to chronicle the obvious, there is no single model of BPD that replicates. Some have co-occurring mental illnesses and addictions. Some are higher or lower functioning. Some are the product of genetics, poor parenting, abuse, head injury or all of the above. I'm reasonably certain my exbfBPD had PTSD, NPD, ASPD, and was neglected as an infant and abused by an alcoholic father. Their stories are different as are ours. That does NOT give them license to abuse others nor should it give us license to allow ourselves to be abused--by anyone! Mourning the dead who can no longer abuse us but who we love and miss so terribly seems like a great idea to me, Indyan. I did it before: I was caregiver and guardian and eulogizer for a man who had psychologically abused me before: my father. I grieve his death and miss him still.

Yep... My ex would be very sensitve to anyone not liking her. And obsess about it. No matter how small a part the played in her life.

She eventually projected that to me and tell me all the people that didn't like me. I miss that , lol

Yep. Mine wanted EVERYBODY to like him. Didn't matter if he liked them or not.

Yeah, I think you're right about the fact that fear or the illness takes over and ruins the relationship.  My uBPDexbf never really painted me black as such.  He said that he thought I was a wonderful person when he ended the relationship, but that negative feelings were pushing against the strong positive feelings he had had for me in the beginning.  He said he was really upset and confused by this process himself; he wanted to stop it from happening, but couldn't. 

Which just made it more tragic in my eyes.

It was his fantasy and mine that we wanted to come true.  But I think there was also a small seed of love between us in there that maybe could have grown if he had decided to get help, like he said he would.

Sadly the fear of that was also far too great.  Denial and avoidance is easier.  My ex said himself that it probably was a "retreat to the familiar".

The truth is they are not the person we so want them to be, we want them to be this loving, wonderful person we fell for but they are a person with a serious mental illness. That illness takes over all their relationships. We need to mourn what we wanted to have, what we thought we had for a while, but that fantasy is gone. So sad [/quote]

I agree with that.  The closer you get to them, the more intimate, the more you get to see.