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This is going to be a long one.  I'm sorry. 

Recently I made a post that has me taking a closer look at some of the longer lasting effects of my childhood.  A trigger is something I define as a part of me that is hyper sensitive to external stimulation or an external force, whether it be a particular song or smell or something another person says or does.  I believe that while an external force may set off a trigger that elicits a particular response, I am 100% responsible for how I respond to that external force.  In other words, I and I alone am responsible for dealing with the fallout.  The problem is, that while I am aware of certain triggers, I can control my behaviors (usually), I am still a mess inside when it happens.  Not to the extent that I used to be, but still to the point where they interfere with my life and my relationships.  There are still a few that really hinder me and I do not respond well to at all.  The silent treatment is one of those.

I am looking to discuss some of the specifics of my trigger, the fears and how to better manage my own internal response.  Basically I want to have ready scripts that I have committed to memory or some type of self soothing/coping skill at my disposal so that I can head off the emotional tailspin or, if that is not possible, to be able to get through it quicker and come out stronger in the end.  

If anyone wants to join me, feel free.  I would also love some help too (as in just tell me what to do! <--- I am only partly kidding there. ) so if you have ideas or input, I would greatly appreciate it.  Also, if you think I am way off the mark, I want to hear about it please.   :)

1) Fear of the Silent Treatment: 

Root of the trigger:  The silent treatment was used by my mother throughout my life to control, manipulate, punish and teach me what she thought I needed to learn.  The silent periods could last anywhere from days to several months while I was living in the same house.  They were accompanied by tense and rigid postures, flinching away if I got too close in proximity, hostile looks of seething hatred, and they also were directed towards my father and brother but not to the same extent.  So basically, the fallout of my 'bad' behavior affected everyone in the house.  During this time, my mother would use my brother as her confidant and if I walked into a room where they were talking, they would both shut up quickly and look away, my mother with this bizarre look of cold rage and my brother with a look of guilt.  My world, already crumbling and fragile, would crash down.  I would rather be screamed at (yes, there was plenty of that too at times) and have someone right in my face calling me all sorts of nasty and vile things.  I do realize that is not healthy either, but if I had to choose, I would take the screaming.

Now, when someone gives me the silent treatment, my anxiety levels go through the roof, I feel sick to my stomach and panicky, and I have to force myself to pretend that I do not care and I am not bothered.  But inside I am.  It builds and I have to force myself not to ask for forgiveness even though I usually have no idea what set it off or I am aware that it really has nothing to do with me it is about the other person being triggered.  (I am mostly thinking about my ex in this part here.  He too was raised by a uBPD mom and I think had BPD/NPD tendencies of his own.  Very high functioning though which made it all the harder to identify the manipulations and anger).  In other areas, like when I was working, if a co-worker got quiet or started acting cooler than usual towards me, I would still panic.  Basically the same stuff I described above would happen but to a lesser extent. 

The fear and anxiety quickly turns to resentment and anger.  I have only recently been able to make that connection.  There was one lady in particular at work and I was triggered quite badly with her passive aggressive silent treatment, gossipy, schoolgirl type behavior along with her embracing a stance of victimhood in everything.  She would alternate that with silent treatment and for the 5 years I worked with her, I did not handle it well at all.  For a while, I would get into verbal sparring with her though nothing major, just annoying as hell, and eventually I got to the point of ignoring it... .but it still ate away at me.  EVEN AFTER I LEFT MY JOB!  How crazy is that?  She would then do things like roll her eyes when I was talking and she thought I could not see or laugh behind my back.  All petty childish things that I let get to me.  She would do things like triangulate and try to bring others into it and would make comments that would let me know other people said things.  It was just awful.  Haha, in retrospect, I wish she had done more of the silent treatment! 

With my exbf (7 year r/s that ended several years ago) we only got together after knowing each other for a year or so.  When I first met him, he was acting as a mentor of sorts.  We both met in a recovery group for nons and he was father along the road and took me under his wing.  It only became romantic later on.  He tended to be quiet when he was upset and that bothered me.  But there were times when it was absolutely horrible and I had a very hard time dealing with his Silent Treatment.  He would go for days without talking to me.  He knew ST was a huge trigger for me from when he was my mentor.  I never told him "hey when you so all quiet for days it triggers me", because I truly believe it was my problem to deal with and not his responsibility to change to suit my needs.  He was very adamant about not 'coddling' me, and though I am not aware of acting like he should, I have to admit I am only aware of what I am aware of, so i can't be certain.

One example with him in particular stands out for me though.  I have been thinking about this a lot.  I had been in the hospital for 20 days after having very extensive surgery.  I was released on a friday and basically begged to be sent home.  I was not sleeping well in the hospital and I was having heart palpitations.  I did not tell anyone because I wanted out of there.   So I went home and was lying on my couch.  He was supposed to come over, but called first.  I was talking with him and the palpitations started.  I was a wreck and alone at that point with two drains in me, etc.  I was telling him about it and my voice was shakey and I was on the verge of tears.  I realized then that I was having a panic attack and told him.  He got angry with me because I was all upset and nervous rather than "being happy and relieved that I had survived surgery".  He then proceeded to hang up on me, did not come over and I neither saw or heard from him for 5 days.  At that point we were together daily for hours and spending most nights together for at least 4 years.  We had talked about living together so it is not like we had just started dating or anything like that.  He had been such a presence in my life that his absence was very hard.  It was confusing, and hurtful and I was brought right back to when my mother would do it. 

I was so upset by the ST, I had to force myself not to go to him and beg (something I am ashamed to admit I did with my mother) for forgiveness for being so selfish and such a whiner.  When he did contact me, I said nothing about my hurt because it was mine to deal with, but I resented it and was so angry.  It festered away inside.  After that it was like my internal light dimmed.  I just shut down and the intimacy was never quite the same.  I withdrew part of me that was willing to share and I was no longer willing to be vulnerable with him anymore.  I was quicker to anger and responding in kind when he would be grumpy or hurtful.  The parts of him that I did not like so much were more pronounced to me.  I am unsure if I was painting him black or not.

I don't want that to keep happening.  How do I manage my reaction to the silent treatment without withdrawing from people?  My reactions have seriously affected some very important relationships.  I need some help please.  If anyone can tell me what they see here, I would appreciate it very much.  Between my ex, my parents and their deaths and some other issues, I have basically withdrawn.  I want to get back inot life, but I do not want to keep reliving the past.

Hi Harri,

I feel like I'm too new here to be qualified to give advice, but you've been very kind to me in your posts, so I want to, at least, respond and share some thoughts.

First, wow.  I thought I was the only person that had the same experience you describe.  I'm kind of blown away by how similar your mom's ST is to my own mom's ST.  It's like you could be describing my uBPD. 

Second, what a ___head your ex is for completely ignoring you in your time of need.  That's awful  I can't believe you needed his help and he ran away.  What a loser   That's really bad behavior on his part and makes me think it's a good thing you're not with him anymore.

I also have triggers.  Unfortunately, I am finding that no matter how self-enlightened I become and no matter how much I can connect my triggers to my childhood abuse, I still have difficulties with my behaviors and not responding to these triggers.  You might recall, I shared a few days ago about dramatically quitting a board position because of the silliest email.  I was just very fortunate to have two women that like me enough to convince me to stay and realized I was over-reacting.  So, on some level, I'm afraid of my own emotional responses and my proclivity to self-sabotage.  So, I can really relate to what you say here and, yes, I'd like to join you on this journey to try and get better in this area.

I've read that sometimes having something you can touch can help - such as a bracelet, ring, rock in your hand, but I don't know.  I used to carry around a small rock with the word "wisdom" etched on it, but truthfully rather than preventing me from responding to triggers most of the time I just wanted to throw it at someone's head.    :)

This is really a beautiful and genuine post and I'm touched and impressed by your clarity and wisdom.  Ours is a rocky road.  I am just seeing how much all of us that are children of BPDs suffer because of it.

Maybe I do have some advice, but it might sound kind of dopey, so bear with me.  I think that because of our childhood abuse we are all very serious people, way too serious.  And this seriousness and rigidity comes out when we socialize and our own tenseness because of the childhood abuse is sort of always there with us, at least I know it is for me.  I am kind of self-conscious in social situations and always a little bit uncomfortable.  What surprises me is that people don't realize how shy and self-conscious I am because my profession requires a lot of socializing and public speaking.  One thing that has helped me a lot - and I was doing this before I even found this board or understood about my mom's uBPD - is watching people like Jimmy Fallon and Ellen.

The two of them are remarkably at ease with themselves and just have this really humorous and light approach to life.  I envy that and think that my childhood robbed me of true joy.

Maybe if you can devote some time each day to something funny, something that makes you laugh and loosen up you will be better able to achieve your goals about not being triggered.  I know, for me, when I'm relaxed I'm much more able to let the little, or even, big things to.  So, before I go out sometimes, I'll spend 30 minutes watching Jimmy Fallon videos on YouTube.

Well, I told you it was silly advice, right?  I hope others will have something more tangible, but in any event sending you a i-can-totally-relate-to-this-post hug 

I just have something short to share on the subject... .

It's the weirdest thing, but I had a recurring nightmare over a 25 to 30 year period of my mother not speaking to me. It would seem to go on the whole night long, and during the dreams I would  never be  able  to  get her to speak to me again. I was left with a lonliness and sense of sadness that would last into the next day.

They stopped  in the last 2 or so years. Possibly coinciding with my actively seeking  answers  about BPD and bringing  this trauma out of the shadows and into the light of day.

As far as others acting in this way to me, yes,it still is a trigger .I think you have solved why I was so hurt and befuddled by a friends ST . I felt guilty, thinking that my hurt was due to a prideful thought that everyone should love me. But your linking ST as a trigger makes more sense.

thank you for that.

The only solution I have found is to make good quality friends who don't play stupid games like that .

Hi Jamnvo.  Please don't ever hesitate to write what you feel or think in response to me.  I welcome any and all input.  The fact is, if we are here, we all have something to share and some insight that can either help or support someone.  When I ask for help it is because I need it and I need to know someone hears me.  So thank you!

What you said about my ex made me laugh.  He really is a good guy, we just did not work well together.  What you said also made me pause.  I have been so focused on my reactions that I forgot that ST is abuse.  All I know is that it triggered me. He was my first and only real relationship of the romantic type.  I still do not know what is considered 'normal' or what reasonable expectations are when it comes to stuff like the example I gave.  Is it okay/healthy/normal to want someone to be there to support you even when you are feeling weak and a bit helpless?  Is it okay to show that?   I do not do needy very well and I am independent to a fault sometimes, so I have a hard time asking for help.  In a situation like that though I was pretty damn scared and exhausted and I can see where it would be annoying if I had been going on and on about it for like 15 minutes, but I wasn't.  So was he being a jerk or was I being too whiney or was it a combination of both?  I don't know and would like some input.  I really only have a hazy idea of what it means to be in a healthy relationship.  I never really talked about my illness or disease so I don't think I drained him.  I don't know.  He was good about visiting and calling when I was in the hospital.  I think part of his reaction to my illness (which for the most part was very supportive but when we first found out, he retreated for several days) was because his wife died following a serious 2 year illness about 2 years prior to our getting together.  I am sure lots of memories were triggered for him too.  I felt guilty when we found out about my disease given his relatively recent loss.  

Anyhoo, I have to admit that when I read your suggestion about the rock, the first thing I thought of was throwing it... .and then I finished reading your sentence!   :)  yeah... .maybe a small nerf ball would be better!  What I can do with your suggestion is try to attach a mantra to a particular object that I can hold or visualize when being triggered, it may help, so thank you.  I just am not sure what mantra to use.  It has to be simple and easy to remember.

I also really like your reminder to laugh.  I have been listening to music a lot more lately as that helps my mood considerably.  But comedy is a wonderful idea too.  Ellen is a favorite of mine too.  Thank you.

Jamnvo, we will figure this life stuff out!  Thanks again.   :)

Sparrow, thank you.  I am glad you were able to connect a couple of dots.  I have a habit of minimizing stuff and then I forget things when I get all warped in my thoughts.  LOL the combination of warped thoughts and forgetting and being hazy makes it pretty difficult to stay in the moment and work stuff through.  I feel like I am trying to run in waist deep water.  Maybe I need to slow it to a walk right now.  But the ST is abuse and manipulation and about control and punishment. <--- must remember that regardless of who is doing it!   I hate it.  I used to think I should make it a deal breaker just because no relationship can survive without communication, plus because I obviously can't handle it.  I am thinking now I should keep it a deal breaker because it is abuse!  Why on earth am I continuing to allow that to happen? 

Anyway, I am glad your nightmare has gone away.  That means all the work you have been doing is having a good effect so that is wonderful! 

Thanks again to the both of you.   :)

Harri, yes it is (non) verbal abuse.

Try what I do. Apply the rule  of 3.

1st time  give them the benefit of the doubt

2nd time put some distance and watch

3rd time, consider it a serious character issue and walk away.

IMO it should be a deal breaker, cos if they are doing that, there are probably other unhealthy , immature communication factors as well   ... .besides you are too good to have people like that in your life.

Hi Harri,

Yes, for me, without a doubt, I consider your ex's behavior unacceptable.  This is what you wrote," He was supposed to come over, but called first.  I was talking with him and the palpitations started.  I was a wreck and alone at that point with two drains in me, etc.  I was telling him about it and my voice was shakey and I was on the verge of tears.  I realized then that I was having a panic attack and told him.  He got angry with me because I was all upset and nervous rather than "being happy and relieved that I had survived surgery".  He then proceeded to hang up on me, did not come over and I neither saw or heard from him for 5 days."

For me, this is emotional abandonment.  It doesn't surprise me because we were emotionally abandoned by our BPD parents, so why wouldn't we also attract people that abandon us in times of needs.  For me, no matter how great he was in other areas, this was just wrong.  I'm sorry he lost his wife and I'm sure that it was traumatic for him, but you said you just got out of the hospital and were in panic and needed him and he shut down completely.  And, yes, for me, this constitutes emotional abuse, especially because you also say that you told him about your issues with ST. 

I believe, if you are still with him?, that this behavior warrants a serious conversation about what is and what isn't OK with you.  I am not sure someone who behaves like this in a time of crisis can truly be a "great guy."  But, I also know from firsthand experience that, as children of BPDs, we have seriously self-esteem issues and we attract men that also have self-esteem issues and people with low self-esteem have difficulties in all kinds of relationships.  What matters most for me, is if he is willing to listen to your concerns and try to work to improve the relationship?

I really like what sparrow said about the rule of 3s. Never heard that before, but definitely will remember it.

Harri, ST is a huge but diminishing trigger for me.  My BPD sis uses it with abandon but w/therapy and higher awareness, it's truly is lessening.  When it hits, my emotional me would crawl on hot coals to make it stop so the logical me has to self-nourish me and I have long (but getting shorter) internal discussions.

Your former bf may be a good guy but he hasn't learned not to be cruel to  someone he cares about.  Today, that's a deal breaker for me.

I used to agree to the rule of 3 but not anymore.  The"event" is the deciding factor as to how many chances.  If someone decks me, that's it.I do not need to be decked 3 times before I call it off.   Forget my birthday and that'll be forgiven.

I agree coral, that one big event like this or  sending up a huge red flag  in another way would definitely  be a deal breaker.

I got the rule of 3 from a book called THE SOCIOPATH NEXT DOOR on how to  size up relationships in the beginning stages.

So, yes, it depends on the seriousness of the action. I like what you said about forgetting  a birthday. It is a matter  of degree.

This may sound weird, but its what worked for me: to embrace the ST.I got it endless times (longer and loner ones) from an xSO. Ok, he´s not BPD, hes uPAPD.

By embracing it I mean I understood what it was (abuse/ manipulation/ control) and told him clearly what it was and that I wasnt taking it, I dont play games, especially not the childish ones. If he cant communicate, thats his problem, cause I was always open to listen... So, if he preferred to punish me, he could go find somebody else cause Im not a child to be grounded.

So, my advice is: empower yourself. If somebody is controling and manipulative, just call them on their game. They will deny it, but at least they know you are aware. For me, it worked, he never did it again. I wasnt angry when I confronted him, I was calm and told him the boat had sailed.

I believe that you deserve friends or partners that dont play such games. 

Hi Harri,

Like you and the others who have responded here, I too am triggered by the ST. My DH is often quiet in his depression, and he'll make 'hmm' sounds but not say what he's thinking. Does it bother me and trigger me? YES! I've been quite aware of it lately and have tried to go back to my childhood and see the connection. While my uBPDm didn't make the same sound, she did make sounds by banging and slamming and various other noises while at the same time not talking. The 'ST with sound effects.'   I think that's why I tend to be triggered by my DH, or at least that's the closest I've gotten in figuring it out.

I spoke with my T about triggers one time, and my frustration with myself that I am triggered before I even know it, sucked into the abyss. One of the first things is just to be aware that we are being triggered. He gave me a great illustration of someone who has had an injury of some sort, and any time the area near the injury is  bumped, the tendency is to overreact in order to protect that which had been injured. Usually we do it unconsciously, as a reflex reaction to what was painful before, even if it doesn't hurt in actuality anymore. So the point is that our triggers are often a reflexive reaction to what took place that hurt us in some way, no matter how long ago. I know you get that already from the things you said.

My little mantra that I say to myself when I am aware that I am triggering is, "This is a reflex reaction to something from long ago." I usually have to repeat it many times and often say it out loud. There is a difference for me to hear it rather than just thinking it. This helps me a lot to be in the moment and to realize I am overreacting, and it helps me to slow down the reaction and breathe easier again. Then later I can go back and think it through when I'm not triggering anymore.

We sure need a lot of tools in our toolboxes to help us, don't we?

Woolspinner

Harri, if you knew a child was being abused, and you saw her sitting on a park bench all alone. What would you do given your knowedge of abuse?

Sit down next to her? Give her a long tight hug? Stroke her hair and tell her "It'll be ok". Have a conversation and help her vocalise the pain?

Well if we've been abused, we have that hurt little person in each of us.

Perhaps we should remove ourselves from the situation when triggered.  And comfort ourselves as we would that little girl/boy on the park bench.

We probably have a well developed sense of compassion, empathy, intuition. We should be using it on ourselves not only on others.

I'm still working on self soothing myself, but this is some of the best advice I've had.

Self-nourishing is so hard to do and harder to accept.  The Internal Dialogue really gets lively. I am pleased to announce the Healthy Team is winning more and more.

Hi.  I want to thank everyone who has posted here.  You have all helped me immensely.  I had to take some time to let this roll around in my head.  I am still stunned that rather than trying to say Hey, ST is abuse and Harri, you have the right to say no, stop, and/or walk away... .there I was trying to figure out how to be okay in the presence of someone who uses ST as a passive aggressive manipulative tool.

Yeah.  So while it is a trigger in that I need to manage my internal reaction and self soothe, I do not need to get comfortable with it.  The critical part of me is saying Harri, how dense can you be?  The softer side of me is saying Harri, so what?  Get over it already!  and the soft inner voice is saying stop beating yourself up over this and learn from it.  I also spent some time using the visualization that Moselle painted for me.  I doodle park benches with trees and bushes and birds all around, so I just doodled Little Harri and Me sitting together, holding hands and having a chat and some hugs.

So I have been thinking about accommodation and resiliency and how I still do not readily identify abuse.  I can adapt to just about any situation and I can bounce back (though not as quickly as I did when I was younger).  I think the wounds and shame just build over time.   Jmanvo, you used the phrase emotional abandonment, and it blew my mind.  I remember thinking at the time that he was a jerk, but then I told myself that I was being clingy and needy and I was whining a bit and who wants to be around that?  So of course he walked away and it was me who was being the jerk.  But that little voice inside me kept repeating the hurt over and over and I squelched it.  I wanted to be part of a relationship.  I wanted to have someone to share things with and I was willing to sell off bits of myself for that (yes, I do read and occasionally post at the leaving board here.  I need it!   )  He withdrew from me, abandoned me emotionally, and then I did the same in response.  It was the same damn thing.  I am not sure behaviors like that are fixable.  They just are.  If I ever had talked with him about it (and that would have been a big flipping war if I did) even if he had heard me and agreed to give me a heads up of "I need a couple of days alone" I would never be sure if he was doing it to avoid an argument (which would annoy me), or to humor me (which is condescending) or because he *wanted* to maintain good communication with me.  <sighs>  I don't *expect* someone to share everything, help me and be with me all the time.  I expect them to need alone time just like I do.   But I *want* someone to *want* to spend time share things and want to help.  Is that part of a 'healthy relationship'?

Sparrow, I like the rule of threes, thank you for sharing.  That rule will come in handy as I reach out more and more.  I think it will serve to put things into focus and will actually help me to pause and determine if I am triggered because it is abuse or if it is something I need to learn to deal with.  It will give me a bit of time to feel, think and breathe.

Coral, thank you for labeling my exes behavior so clearly.   :)  I got riled up a bit while processing this thread and had an urge to call him up and tell him off... .until I remembered all the threads I read over on the Leaving board where they talk about recycle attempts by the BPD... .my ex definitely thinks he was the non to my so-called BPD.  I was more raw and not as far along in recovery, but he has as many if not more BPD traits than I did/do.     He would have seen my call as a 'recycle attempt'... and i said the hell with that!   :)  Internal dialogue is perfect for the running commentary I have in my head.  I am glad to know you are winning the fight against the ST trigger.  

Wools, my mom did the ST with sound effects too!  The slamming of doors, pots and pans, muttering under her breath.  My absolute favorite (actually the most hurtful really) was to see her lips moving while she recited scripture or said prayers under her breath while doing this thing with her hand to ward off evil spirits when i was around during ST (when she was not hiding in the basement).  She used to throw holy water at me too.   :'(  :'(   God help me, writing that hurts so much and I am so very glad she is dead.

I wanted to talk some more about the ST that your husband does with you.  I am not sure if you want to though.  How about you take the lead on that if you want to talk some more about it?  I also plan to borrow you mantra---> "This is a reflex reaction to something from long ago."  Thank you.  

Mine is punishing me at the moment with ST. She started it with a divorce threat, stopped all communication and is now not allowing me to speak to the children either :-(

How do I know if I'm triggered or not?

How do I respond to ST without validating it?

Moselle, I am sorry she is doing that to you and involving your daughters in it as well. 

You ask how to know if you are triggered.  I've been thinking about that, specifically the Silent Treatment.  If we accept that ST is abuse, then does it matter if we are triggered?  Beyond taking control of our own behaviors when triggered, if the triggering event is abuse, I think it is okay and even required to say No, stop, go to hell, whatever may fit.  In your example, it is hard because you are not living with her and you are being denied access to your children.  I can't imagine that.   :'( 

As for not validating it?  Right now i am thinking if it were me, I would say Let me know when you want to act like the adult you are and leave her to do whatever she chooses... .but I am not in your shoes and I do not have kids, so it is easy for me to write that.  I am not sure I am the best person to give advice on this one.  I wish I could say do this ___, but I can't. 

Moselle, what are you getting out of trying to stay married to her?

Good question

The children are my biggest concern. I want them to have a chance at healthy.

The knowledge that I have given it every chance.

I guess fulfilling the caretaker in me. The need to rescue/ help her

The dream of a functional family coming out of dysfunction.

Hi.  Take this as just an opinion from an adult child who has issues or her own.  My parents stayed together for the kids so we would not have the baggage of a broken home.  I am not sure what kind of man my father would have been if he had left my mother and worked on himself... .but I have a feeling that at one point he was a fairly decent guy.  He was not any where near to being a decent man IMO after being married to my mother for 46 years.  He died broken, sad and longing for my mother who spent 46 years abusing, berating and emasculating him.  She used parental alienation to the point where I still have no idea of who my father really was and neither does my brother and we were all in the same house together.

Having at least one healthy parent to turn to for unconditional love, validation and stability is what is best for the kids.  Whether the parents remain married is a separate issue and is, IMO, related to the needs and beliefs of the parent(s) and nothing else. 

I am not trying to get you to decide one way or another, I just want you to take a closer look at the question I asked and the first answer you wrote:

Thanks Harri.

I go in with my eyes wide open. I have made the choice to go back. But I will not be abused. I have my boundaries and if I go back in,  to re-orient my kids before leaving after 6 months, so be it. I have been absolutely clear that I will not tolerate misery.  If we are both miserable then there is only one outcome.  We have agreed that in principle. 

On my own, I set the bar at thriving. If I don't thrive there, then I leave . No doubts. It's not in my nature to flog a dead horse. But I want to recover myself in this. If I can do it in the midst of a BPD/NPD mess then I can do it anywhere. There is a challenge in it for me personally. If you can make it in New York you can make it anywhere. Right?

Ah New York. What a city! I'm South African BTW.

If I can't function as a dad there. I will leave. I know too much. But I think I can swing this. Not on my own but with God' s help. I know who I was before. And there is nothing stopping me being that person.

I may not be loved, but my children love me, and my sister loves me, and I have loving friends.

I can leave the marriage on my terms, recovered co-dependent, with superb coping skills, listening skills. Knowledge of how to handle the marriage on my teterms. Difficult people. Soothe myself . Build self esteem in children. But then why would I leave. I'd be thriving,  because these are all skills we can apply  to other things. Harri, if I did it for one day. I can do it every day. And perhaps this is just what I need to thrive - hardship. The test will be - Can I give enough love  to the kids. I can do so without effort. It is actually a pleasure, not a burden.

I feel like I have to try, given the in formation I have now. The skills need work.

 Thank you Moselle for hearing me out on this.  I believe you can do anything you choose to do.  As much as I can, not being married with kids, I do understand and can relate to your determination and need to make this work.  Reading your response, I was reminded of my own determination to not go no contact with my family after I discovered BPD and all that entailed.  I had several people telling me I was crazy to stay in touch, that I was staying in contact because I was still enmeshed, etc.  Some even implied that I was able to do so because my mother was not as bad as 'their pwBPD'  .  The same thing happened when I decided to move back in with my father after my mom passed.  I had no other choice except to go to a shelter, but still friends told me it was the wrong choice.  I made it work though.  None of it was easy, not the limited contact and not moving in with my dad but I ended up better for the experience.

During that time and again while reading your reply, I keep thinking of that story in the bible with the three guys in the fire... .walking around and coming out unharmed.  I can never remember the guys names and think of them as Al, Mike and Sam for simplicity  :) but that was what I wanted to be able to do--->  learn to be me even in the presence of insanity.

I am also reminded of this quote:  Only to the extent that we expose ourselves over and over to annihilation can that which is indestructible be found in us.-- Pema Chodron

For a while the above quote was my mantra and it helped me to focus and stay motivated during those times when I was nearly consumed by FOG, rage and so very tired of having to fight for everything.

So as much as anyone else can, I understand your position and I believe in your ability to achieve your goals.  It sounds like you have a good support system in your sister and your friends.  I'd like to join team Moselle in spirit and support you as well so keep posting.

Harri, you have no idea how much your posts inspire me. Whether it's answering a question you have asked, or reading a post of yours, I feel calmed. Not sure if you know you have that gift. Thank you for sharing it with me. Team Moselle needs you desperately LOL, so its great to have you along.

I've decided to ignore my W's Silent treatment. If the marriage is over, it is over. I accept that for today. Tomorrow it may be over again, or it may be happy. I'm not sure. I'm not in control of her choices. I know that in her mind, she

I am in control of mine though, and I am feeling more myself today. I am sending a mobile phone to a neigbour, to give to the kids so I can contact them.

BTW, :-) www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadrach,_Meshach,_and_Abednego

I've just hashed out in my mind if I have done something wrong.

I realise that I haven't, so I'm very comfortable that this silent treatment is her issue that she has split me because of it.

Also "being ignored or ceasing to exist to a BP/NP is not pleasant, but it does indicate that you are no longer their caretaker. Keep in mind that you may have never existed for the BP/NP anyway. They know you are alive, but your individual feelings, values, interests, and ways of looking at the world have never existed for the BP/NP "

"Stop caretaking the BP/NP" p180

Moselle, I am glad you feel a sense of calm when chatting with me.  Thank you for sharing that with me.  It is always interesting to hear how others experience me and it is especially nice when the person has taken the time to hear and see me and *still* sees me in a positive way!  The acceptance and understanding feels good and it is appreciated.   :)


That is brilliant!  As for feeling more yourself, that is good.  Just keep doing what you are doing and continue to take it one day at a time.  You seem to have not only grasped but really accepted the whole "what is, is" thing. 

Have you given any thought to how you will deal with your wife cutting off channels of communication with your daughters (other than alternate cell phones?  :) )  I keep picturing her finding the phone and throwing it away!   :)  <--- not that it is really funny or anything, but I can't help but laugh at the imagery.

I am still uncertain how to know if ST is justified.  I get that people get upset and need time to think, but when does it cross the line of what is appropriate and reasonable?  Is that something that can only be determined on an case by case basis?  Any thoughts on that?

That book you quoted is new to me.  The part you quoted is interesting.  With my mother, the ST was really a state of rage (and with my ex it was meant as a punishment) so I don't believe I stopped existing for her.  I do agree she never saw me as an individual though but I think the ST was her punishing the parts of her self that she loathed and in turn projected onto me.  I wonder if the book is talking more about when the BP/NP cuts off all contact and then moves on to another partner?  No such thing happened with my mother so I don't really understand.  Is there a difference that you can see or am I blocked on this? 

If there is a difference maybe it lies in the very nature of the relationship.  Obviously a husband wife dynamic is different than mother child.  The parental bond that my mother and I had was that I was nothing but an extension of her... .and I can't put my thoughts together and I am having a hard time finding the words to express what I am thinking here re: the difference in the nature of the relationships.  I am going to leave this here so I don't lose the thought though.  Do you have any input?


Yes!  Those are the guys... .Sam, Mike and Al!  LOL

Team Moselle is awesome so thanks for having me!   :)

Look I get your humour. If you find something funny about my situation, please share it - really. Laughing helps me deal with it. It takes that pit out of my stomach. OK I just pictured her naked finding the phone and throwing it away. Ha ha, now it's funny :)

The girls phoned me. I asked W's parents to intervene and ask W to let me speak to the children. We skyped for about an hour. Loved it. My anxiety completely went away.


I think she is just dysregulating, and actually cannot speak to me without shouting. It is also punishment. She's cruel. It's what she does. It's how she was treated as a child and all she knows.


Spot on. I think this related to a husband wife dynamic. I can only speak from my experience with my mother. see if it relates to yours. All her feelings of inadequacy, self hatred, insecurity were actually projected onto me as an appendage to her. As you say as an extension of her, a very un-OK extension. My life view and outlook seems very similar to hers, as if I'm cloned or a part of her. Jeez I also find it hard to write. It's very hard to describe

I had a good experience today. I sat with myself and observed my thoughts for 5 minutes. I found it very difficult and couldn't do it from longer than 30 seconds at first, and I was very critical of myself "You can't do this etc", I observed that thought with interest (its my mother's voice - highly critical). Then I relaxed myself doing a few relaxation techniques to see if the thoughts would come. the excercise was not to judge them but just to observe them. I found it difficult to separate thoughts and feelings. But I persevered, and I began to notice my thoughts. Then throughout the day I was more conscious of them. Very interesting.

I found some stuff you might find interesting:

Know the Type

Mothers with BPD outnumber fathers, and Christine Lawson, author of Understanding

the Borderline Mother, has a taxonomy of the troubled parent: "The Queen is controlling,

the Witch is sadistic, the Hermit is fearful, and the Waif is helpless," she says. And each

requires a different approach. Don't let the Queen get the upper hand; be wary even of

accepting gifts because it engenders expectations. Don't internalize the Hermit's fears or

become limited by them. Don't allow yourself to be alone with the Witch; maintain

distance for your own emotional and physical safety. And with the Waif, don't get pulled

into her crises and sense of victimization; "pay attention to your own tendencies to want

to rescue her, which just feeds the dynamic," Lawson says.

Trust Yourself

In writing her book Surviving a Borderline Parent, Kimberley Roth encountered many children of borderline parents who said they felt crazy growing up. "They experienced a lot of inconsistencies—an action or statement

that earned praise one day would touch off a three-day, stony silent treatment the next—

as well as sudden outbursts and overreactions." So they never learn to trust their own

judgment or feelings. The most important element to recovery, she says, is to accept that

you're not crazy and that "it wasn't me."

You asked me why I'm going back in  - to rescue my kids from the queen witch!

Children of borderline parents are often forced to act as the parent themselves—"it's like

a child raising a child," Kreger says—and this role can play itself out in other

relationships. They grow up very quickly in many ways and act as caretaker for everyone,

sometimes at the expense of taking care of themselves. "Having that undue sense of

responsibility can leave them feeling very alone in the world," Lawson says. And they

allow others to tread their boundaries just as the parent did. So once you learn to set

limits for your parent, set them for other people and learn to put yourself first.

None of these steps will come easy. An abusive or inconsistent parent can leave a deep

wound. "Trying to manage it can be a lifelong process," Kreger says. But she insists that

with a good therapist, and support from a community of other people who have gone

through the same thing, "there is real possibility to get better, and I know many people

who have."

Hiya!

Yeah, my mother was Queen/witch with a bit of hermit in there too.  Interesting combo to say the least!  I have wished many times that I had that info when I was younger.  Especially the part about staying away from the witch and that I was not the crazy one.  Trying to sort through what stuff is mine to own and what is my mothers is still a challenge as so much of the insanity has been internalized.  I seem to go back and forth between a place of strength and one of guilt and shame.  I can tell myself all I want that I am not to blame and the shame is not mine, but I can't seem to shake it.  I sometimes wonder if I am holding onto those feelings of guilt and shame to keep myself a victim.  LOL  Victimizing myself for being a victim and then re-victimizing myself because I despise the victim stance.  And sometimes, when I hear that inner voice saying all this crap, I tell myself to shut up.  :P

Moselle, you are capable and so very strong even though you may not always feel that way.  What is your armor made of?  Truth, courage, determination, righteousness, dignity, integrity, faith... .what else?  Have you thought of how to help your daughters develop their own armor?  I keep trying to think back and remember the feelings I had and I am not sure what would have helped me.  Heh, I am still trying to figure out what will help me as an adult.

That bit about growing up taking care of everyone... .it rings so true.  I can remember my mother confiding in me and coming to me for advice and for my opinions.  I was way too young.  I've been thinking a lot about the care taking role I had.   At this point in time, I feel like I have spent so much time taking care of others and sacrificing myself that I am very selfish.  When i was living with my father I really struggled with wanting to help him... .as in I had to force myself to do it.  I am not sure if that was 'normal' given my childhood or if that makes me an incredibly selfish person.  I read some of the posts here and I am just awed at peoples ability to keep giving or even the desire to want to help and I can't help but look at myself.  I have a couple of friends I am happy to help and my brother and SIL and nephew I have no problem with of course.  But some people, I just don't have it in me.  I don't even feel sympathy sometimes.  I feel like my moral compass is a bit broken and sometimes i think my ability to be compassionate is limited. 

Okay, I am rambling about me!  :P

Is your wife allowing contact with the kids?  I keep imagining you sending secret messages via courier pigeon and more of those 'disposable' cell phones!  You could go all James Bond/Secret Agent too! 

Oooh!  I was thinking of you earlier today.  Someone here, trees I think it was, mentioned an online CBT course she signed up for.  She said it was designed for kids, but liked it so I checked it out and plan to do the course.  I thought your girls might get something out of it (and you too maybe?).  It is mentioned on this site too.  It's called Mood Gym and it is free.  Have you checked it out already?

Louise, I was reading through this thread again and I realized I did not respond to your comment to me.  I am sorry.  I'm not sure what happened. 

I like where you say to embrace it by calling the behavior out and saying I will not take it.  That is beautifully simple and to the point.  It is also good to get reassurance that it is abuse.  No matter how much I may think something is wrong, it seems I am still uncertain enough that hearing from others that it is indeed wrong is so very helpful to me.  Thank you and thank you for giving me an example of what it sounds like when you say to embrace it.  I learn better when i can read and actually say the words out loud!

Louise said:

Hi Harri!

No apology needed! But Im glad you commented here so Im back on this thread. Well, seems I said it too soon, cause he just gave me another silent treatment! And starting on my birthday! How cool is that? He punishes me twice!  :) He must be so happy!

Long story short, he picked for a fight and I fell for it a couple of days ago. So in his mind he feels justified in ignoring me now.

Yes, sometimes we know it but we need to hear it from others: its abuse. Ill say more: its sadism! This is the only place I can really say what I think and not sound selfish, Im sure you all understand. So, here it goes: who gives silent treatment to a child? To her/ his own child? PD or not PD, I dont care, its just cruel! Who ignores somebody on his/ her birthday cause of a fight? They have no mercy, no empathy whatsoever!

Im glad I can vent here and get validation. People see him as Mr Nice Guy (I was fooled by that too) so Im the mean one for not letting it go. At least my uBPDs rage and people realize, at some point, that theres something very wrong there.

I think calling it for what it is may work, at least for some time. But given my last experience, its just a matter of time until they go back to their old habits. So, Id tell that, whenever possible, just stay away from them. Unlike you, I was so tired of that behaviour that I dont want any contact (I havent contacted him for years), so apologizing is something I dont do anymore. But still, even with small ammount of contact, he finds ways to punish me. I understand the ST affected you in a different way, cause you were a child. I can only imagine how devastating it was.

So, given all this, if somebody uses it with you again, just take a step back, breath deep and realize its THEIR problem, not YOURS. You dont have to do anything but leave. 

Louise, yes it is is sadism, and yes it is cruel and no it is not cool. Not cool at all. And i would like to offer my support and validation.

I can really empathise becuse mine has gone on sadistic silent treatment as well and prevented me from speaking to my children. She knows that's about the cruelest thing she can do to me. There is the BPD queen , hermit, witch and the waif. Mine has NPD as well and is all three of these except the hermit. And she knows it. She actually called herself a 'dragon' once, and then blamed me that she was a dragon to me and a cruel mother :)

OK. Can I change this?. No. Can I stop this being painful no? Can I stop myself suffering?. A resounding YES. I am visiting this week. Flying down especially to see the children. I am taking a mobile phone with me that will stay on their dressing table and will stay plugged in and charging. So whenever I phone, it will be there. If it disappears it is because she has made it disappear , I will just get another one. I wonder how many she will take before she gives up that game.

I made another choice too. I sent her a mail saying "Thanks for taking your space, I have loved having the time apart as well" And its true. I have come to myself and done lots of work during this NC.

So in the past I have allowed a person with a serious mental illness to control me. I'm not making that choice any more.

Hi Moselle and thank you so much for your support and validation. I have uBPD relatives and one sounds a lot like your ex wife (except she´s not a hermit), she has lots of H traits and N too, not to mention the sadism. I read your posts and Im so sorry for your situation. I congratulate you for all you are doing for the kids, you got great advice and encouragement from adult kids of BPDs, they are a great source of knowledge for all of us.

Going back to the topic (ST), Id point out they use it cause they know its something important to us. Unfortunately we opened up and shared many things with them (like its supposed to happen in a healthy romantic r/s). And then they use all that info as ammo against us. So they hit where it really hurts. They cant see houw counter-productive that is for them, but seems their ego is more important than anything. So Im just minimizing contact or going NC with all my uPDs. I wish things were different, but its time to move on and let go of the dream. I came to the conclusion that its impossible to have a r/s with a blackhole, they end up sucking your energies and give nothing back, any interaction is painful for me.

I look back and realize that I have a control issue too, I hoped things were in a certain way and since they are not, I get frustrated and resentful. I still get upset with the ST, but Im managing it better, I fully accepted they wont change, not even 1%, so I took the burden off my shoulders and walked away. Even if I still keep in touch, emotionally Im way more detached. It was a huge relief and I hope we all get in better places soon. 

I fully respect your decision to walk from it. I can understand it and I vascillate sometimes between staying or leaving. She is not in fact my ex. We are still married, but there is a bit of sunlight opening up between us in terms of change. I am building momentum and she is still playing the games. Interestingly I love her. I'm not sure how I can say that or whether it's real love or not, but I am fond of her. There were good reasons I married her, outside of being idolised LOL. Having researched their pain, and how deep it is, I actually have some level of compassion for her too. It is devastating what they go through, and I actually believe they know what they are doing, and the damage it causes. To stop themselves completely melting down from the guilt though, they have a safety valve, which is unfortunately you and me. Imagine the build up of pain if the safety valve disappears. They rage to bring us back, and if raging doesn't work, they promise stuff like amazing sex (Yes she showed me too  :)), and then she tried CBT and DBT for 2 months. Now silent treatment. Ironically the silent treatment was the one that worked, I'm going back tomorrow, But she doesn't know its to see the kids, and give them their phone. Fortuitously she is out friday and saturday, so I've got the kids to myself! :-) And I will leave again until she can respect my boundaries, then I will go back permanently. If she doesn't I can never go back. Oh I have other needs/wants too. To be Nurtured, Respected, Autonomy, and Reciprocation of positive behaviour.

Moselle, sorry, I just assumed she was your ex. I completely understand the conflicting feelings, specially cause you have children involved, so in that regard, its much easier for me to detach and go NC/ VLC.

"Interestingly I love her. I'm not sure how I can say that or whether it's real love or not, but I am fond of her. There were good reasons I married her, outside of being idolised LOL."

I can relate to that too. In my case, regarding my uPAPD xSO, it was a habit for me. Not an addiction, but I got used to him, it was familiar in many levels (I had an emotionally unavailable father, so getting ST was somehow "normal". Also, I realize its some sort of "slot machine syndrome", I put so much effort on it that I cant let go completely. I will eventually, but to get there it will take me long.

I dont have the kindness you display, though. Maybe cause my uBPDs drained me so much over the decades and they go on, if I allow them. When they want something from me, they phone me and play victim, then I say no and they rage, I continue with no and then they cry again... .Its toxic and exhausting for me. I dont really care if they are in pain or not, to be honest. There are many resources nowadays (medication, therapy, shrinks, etc). They refuse all that, so that means they are not in pain, otherwise the´d look for help. Actually, the only uPDs I knew that went to therapy or to a shrink used it as a tool ("see, I went and nothing changed, its your fault!".

My particular experience doesnt allow me to be optimist and Im sorry. I hope you make the best decision for your kids and you. And I wish you a happy alone time with the kids.

I paid for therapy for 4 years, individual and marriage and it indeed made no difference whatsoever. I think her therapist became her caretaker though.

When she to me she only went to please me, I promptly stopped paying for it. And sent aN instruction to the therapist to stop billing me. She literally tried to make me pay. She dropped her price per session. So I replied and said thanks for dropping your price. If i recalculate the 4 years of therapy on that price you owe me 22 free sessions.  Please feel free to consult with W on that basis.

Bizarrely, she continued to see W and billed me last week for the last 6 sessions. Unbelievable. I replied and said 'this is not for my account' . W was her wrapped around her finger by playing victim.

Look I'm no optimist here. I am very much a realist. It may not work out. In fact the chances are very slim.  But I will not be bullied by her. Those days are over. I will walk away every time she tries. And if she won't respect my boundaries over time, I will not continue.

Silent treatment, hmm.

I kinda view it from the perspective of someone in a great deal of pain. Scared of having even more emotional pain laid on top of them, they go quiet. Sometimes it is indeed abuse, they're angry at you and want to hurt you. But it simply depends on the situation.

Mine is quiet, but she's certainly not trying to hurt me, she says she isn't speaking to anyone at the moment.

I text her today, and she replied, and I told her I'd talk to her soon. She's in emotional agony right now, I'm not taking it personal.

I think that for us ST hurts because we're scared of being abandoned, it goes back to childhood issues, whether from friends or family. It's just a question of whether or not we want to spend any length of time dealing with this stuff. I don't know if I do. This is the situation I personally am in. Can I cope with someone like this? Does the relationship benefit us in any way? If it does then march on little soldier. If not, retreat and regroup, train yourself, then move on or reinitiate contact.

What we really need to use ST for is to better ourselves, to focus on ourselves. The BPD uses it for that very reason, its why often when contact is resumed they have a new partner, or they seem different in some way. Often they can use it to get over us, but we can use it for the better, we can use it to become better people, to gain our self-esteem. Even to make ourselves more attractive to our BPD partner. I decided today that I would limit my contact for the next six months, I'm already working on becoming a stronger and better man, with definite results in my social interactions and daily life. The problem I have is while my wonderful, sweet and demonic BPD is in my life, my interactions with her are pretty much the same. I don't want that, I don't want her to be my starcrossed lover, I want to be able to hold her as accountable as I would anyone else, I don't want to be scared of losing her because - frankly - I've never had her. So long as I am clingy 'co-dependent' and needy things will never change except for the worse.

Silent Treatment can work both ways - it should work both ways.

Moselle, I dont want to hijack the thread, but one of my uBPDs (the sadistic one) went into "therapy" cause a friend told her. Long story short, she wanted validation and the therapist turned into a friend that didnt help at all, she just escalated. They went shopping together, celebrated birthdays, it became weird. Then eventually my uBPD stopped seeing her, I can only assume she raged at the therapist. But it was a truly dysfunctional r/s since the beggining.

Christoff, Id say there´s a huge difference between time to cool off and silent treatment. If you google "silent treatment" you will find its mostly described as abuse, as a manipulation and control tool. Just a warning: my uPAPD said he needed time alone and wasnt talking to anybody. That turned out to be a lie. They never assume they are punishing you, making you doubt its part of the game. So please be really attentive, I may be wrong, but I see red flags there.

I like your thinking, the retrat and regroup is something I should do.

I also agree with "its not personal". Definetly its not, mine does it with everybody he thinks deserves being punished. But still, its done TO ME and Im not taking it, I dont find it acceptable in any way. Above all, its a lack of communication, mine cant say what bothers him cause he wants to be Mr Nice Guy 24/7. Funny thing, being sadistic makes him look bad (when people finally realize what ST is all about). He doesnt realize how CHILDISH and emotionaly IMATURE it is for a man in his 50´s.

Harri, I believe it also triggers you cause its such juvenile behaviour and having being raised by an uPD parent you cant take ir any longer. Nowadays I feel just EXHAUSTED. Its like Im in a kindergarten, with 40 kids yelling, raging and screaming at the same time. I guess thats mostly why ST bothers me so much, Im tired of being the adult while they get away with all their childish behaviour.

christoff, this makes about the most sense I've read in a long time. It is inspiring, and it is just spot on.

Mine is definitely in sadistic witch mode though. She's using it to restrict contact with my kids too (and she knows that's the easiest way to hurt me). She shooed them off Skype last night because I was spending too much time with them. So I think I am in the envious position of her wanting my exclusive attention, but then doing NC (simultaneous push/pull). I've been quite nonchalant about it, but she's so clever, she knows she's rattled my cage.

She is making it clear to the children that I've done something wrong and am being punished for it. My great sin was boundary defense BTW. She was wanting to work on the relationship and have long conversations. It was too much for me, and I asked her for a day's space to get myself organised. I broke her rule of immediate resolution. And she's been NC for 8 days now.

I am visiting the kids this week and I will be careful to explain to them how ST shows very little respect and though mommy says she is doing it for space there is a way to ask for space which shows respect.

I have used the time wisely as well though. I am coming more into my skin than I have been in a long time. More grounded, more wisemind. It feels good.

Thanks for your post!

She knows you, very well... she's studied you. She knows what makes you tick, what gets you aroused, what makes you sad, what makes you happy. It's how the BPD can detect something is up, when something that once made you happy/sad or bothered you works no longer. She knows when you seem different. One of the big problems with a BPD is the need to control everything. If they're in a group - she's the boss of that group and everyone aligns to her will, in a relationship however much the lady doth protest... she wears the trousers (and she hates it).  Remain non-chalant, between contacts take a day to recoup, without accusing you of something she can't really stop you from seeing your children, simply remain friendly, and emphasise that this is about the children not about you two, stick to your guns calmly and she'll respect you for it.



If she is trying to turn the kids against you, well that ain't cool. You see so long as she has custody she has something over you, this is a real problem and this should be the main focus. Try talking to a family lawyer, it's the best thing to do to know your rights, I'm pretty sure doing what she is doing could be termed abuse. It's nice that she wanted to work on the relationship, but your relationship breakup should have no bearing on the children that need to be protected from this. Because of the breakup she's going to be focusing a lot of her BPDness on the kids. You really need to get this sorted. Just think how much she mindf***ed you, imagine being little kids. Again no desire to scare you, but go see someone on that.


Make sure you do, it sounds as though your visits are going to be basically therapy sessions for the children to undo much of the damage she will be doing,


This is the best news ever, thats how it needs to be, the more grounded, rounded and real you are... the more you 'know thyself', the less power that she can have over you.


Thank you for your reply!

Harri,

            I meant to answer you on this last night but didnt have time, now this post has traveled along away so Im not sure where my comments will fit in but I'll give it go anyways.


                                                I get triggered by the silent treatment too.  I had one boyfriend that did this to me and it kept me obsessed with him for 3 years,   then recently my BPD realtionship which ended this July.  He ended it with the silent treatment which was horrible.  First time he split on me in January, this was his tactic.  I have never been in such misery and torture before in my life.  I couldnt believe someone could be so cruel.

                                                  I was so angry because I have had a problem in my past with this other boyfriend that did this.  I really developed a problem emotionally over it. I couldnt stop compulsively trying to contact him. It was like I couldnt control myself and then when I did I'd get really sick.  The tension would built up and built up to the point where I just couldnt stand it any longer and I'd lose control and have to try to contact him.  It was embarrassing and so humiliating to me.  The more I tried to contact him the deeper I got into my own pit which naturally meant less likely he would ever answer and the worse I felt.  It would be like a high when Id try to contact him followed by the lowest of lows when I realized he was not going to answer. Hope followed by crash and burn.   It made me compulsive. It was bad.

                                                I told my BPD boyfriend that doing this to me triggers me really bad and to please not treat me this way.  He didnt care.  He didnt even have anything legit to be mad about in the first place. I never really knew exactly what it was I had done wrong, and me too went through a phase where I would say I was sorry,  to what ever,  to make things be ok again.  The ST is such a horribly mean thing to do.  I personally cant think of anything meaner to do to a person. 

  We were going on some time after this where I thought every was ok.  We were getting along fine and chatting with each other until very slowly he started becoming more and more distant to me when we were on chat.   Id ask him a question and it would take him 5 minutes to answer me,  then 6 minutes,  and Im thinking , what is he doing, his laundry!   I mean, that's fine but at least tell me because im sitting here watching the screen waiting for you.

   This continued and got worse until I said something about it, and true to form as a BPD, he acused me of being controling to him.   I was actually asking for a little courtesy. I couldnt figure out why one day he would engage with me and the next day played this game.   It came to a head and he used it as an excuse I guess to end the relationship.It was long distance and I asked him, are you seeing someone. I wanted him to be honest since we live in two different countries,  it happens, I would have been upset,  but I would have understood what was going on. He said no he wasnt and I think he was telling the truth, just having another splitting melt down, out of no where, telling me it was over because he didnt like answering his cell phone while he was on the jon.  Ya. He said that!      and then just cut me off!  like this one song I know. Blocked me.     No closure, no nothing,   >and me true to form tried to write him several emails.  no answer,  then I got mad and confronted him about BPD, but I did it loveingly with alot of careful craft, meaning Im trying to help I love you.    Nothing,  Nothing ,  NOthing,   still nothing to this day,3  month s later.  I know hes spying on my FB page.  I know it.  It bothers me.   I still get tempted and sometimes slip and try to write him again.  still nothing for ever, for ever in his hell. It really makes you hate them. 

Goingtostopthis, you wrote

"I never really knew exactly what it was I had done wrong, and me too went through a phase where I would say I was sorry,  to what ever,  to make things be ok again."

Same here. Every time the ST periods got longer and longer. And I apologized via email, tried to contact him on phone and he wouldnt pick up. He probably had the joy of his life seeing me desperate and apologetic. Looking back, I was so stupid! I gave him the control. I apologized, what for? (I dont have those emails anymore, Im sure if I read them Id think it was written by a hostage).

Now I find MY own behaviour stranger than his. Why would I try to make things better with my torturer? (yeah, Im being dramatic just to make a point  :) ) Must be some variation of the Stockholm Syndrome.

I think they train us little by little and we dont even notice it. We give in bit by bit and when we wake up we are being disrespected in the most bizarre ways.

I confort myself thinking that people like that must have very little pleasure in life, cause playing such idiotic games seem childish and silly to me. And its counter-productive on top of it!

   It breaks your heart further then any heart can be broken.   I thought my ex loved me.  It just showed to me that he wasnt the person he pretended to be.  It showed me that our relationship was only about him and his irrationality. It confirmed his BPD.  Also I felt he did it to feed off me. Like he secretly got off on it as a means of attention to boost his weak insecure,pathedic ego.  By making me feel pathedic he felt better. Im sure he all of a sudden came out of his depresssion when he did it and got really creative with his art work.  This is what happened the first time. He was telling me how wounded and hurt HE was over this imaginary thing I supposively did, this of course cancelled out the pain I was going through as if it didnt exsist at all.  He acted like he was the most wounded person in the world and what I did was something that he could never repair. Like I was that bad.  The whole time I thought he was doing nothing as he indicated because he was so depressed.  When he decided he wanted to be friends again, he skyped me and proceeded  to show off all around his living room all these stain glass windows he had done during the 3 week period he was giviing me the silent treatment.,before all this he could barely lift a pen.   While I was going through hell ,he was high in on a

creative binj all suped up on himself.  I was disgusted.  It was sick!   

So much going on in the thread now... .I am not sure where to start replying.  I am going to just go with what sticks out in my mind the most.

Louise, hi!  I agree that ST is sadism, or at least for the people who use it as a weapon.  I never really saw it that way until you told me.  I have been looking at ST in terms of the person doing it being hurt and damaged and that is true, but there are lots of hurt and damaged people in the world who do not lash out or try to control others.  My mother was a controller and so was my ex.  In the case of my ex, right now I don't care if he needed time to himself.  He knew how it affected me and I am now convinced he used ST to 'teach me a lesson'... .he really is that arrogant.  And yes, years later, I am finally angry enough to perhaps move on once I work the anger out of my system.  My mother was a whole different game though.  She used it to control but she also believed she was wronged, I was evil and she was justified.  It still hurts and it was incredibly damaging to me as a kid, but I know it was part of her illness and I just lump it into the pile along with her other fruit loop capers.  

I am sorry you have had to deal with that from your friend.  I hear you about being tired of giving.  I posted that a page or so back and I have been thinking about it.  I was feeling so damaged and deficient so to see you feeling some of the very same, while I am sorry for it, I don't feel so alone.  I want to want to feel compassion and want to help... .but I can't fake it or force it.  It will just lead to frustration, anger and resentment and self loathing.  I don't need any more of that.


Yes!  Thank you.  I just decided it is a deal breaker and I don't care who it is.  Maybe the next time around I wont spend so much time wondering what is wrong with me and why are they rejecting me.  Reading your response I remembered shortly after my mother started taking to me again after I abandoned her by moving away (she had not really talked to me for at least a year and after that it was yelling and 'you did ___ to me" BS) I gave it back to her a bit.  We got into an argument and the ST came up and I told her I was her daughter and I deserved to be treated with dignity... .actually I yelled it at her   but she never did it after that, though I did not really give her a chance to either.

I have been wondering what it is in me that first, forgot this was abuse and was trying to figure out how to be comfy with ST and how to not get all messed up inside when it happens, because regardless of it being abuse, it is still a trigger for me.

Moselle, I hope you will be able to talk with your girls like you wish about the ST and how damaging it can be and more appropriate ways of needing some alone time    I wonder if your wife is behaving this way to your girls?  Granted, I only know my family dynamics, but I think it would be remarkable if your wife is able to control herself with them... .though maybe the silver lining is that right now all her rage is focused on you?  ACK!  Sorry my friend, but better you than them... .even better would be her just stopping this crap.     The fact that she is trying to turn your kids against you is worrisome A.  Just be warrior you and demonstrate to them what love respect and trust is really all about.

Christoff, I am glad you have been able to find a benefit in the ST in terms of using the time to work on yourself.  Personally, I think there are less painful and manipulative ways, but if you are an adult in a r/s with someone who uses ST to control, then perhaps it is a bit different.  

GoingTST, I am sorry your friend and your ex used this on you.  I too go into a tailspin when it happens.  I can remember begging, on my knees, for my mother to talk to me.  I finally stopped after seeing the look of satisfaction in her eyes one time.  B*tch.  Yeah, I am angry still.  What you described happening with your boyfriend is similar to what happened with my ex.  He too twisted it around to me wanting to control him and then he called me whiney and clingy and of course it was because I was more disordered than he (we are both Nons--- his mom was also uBPD but he always saw me as more flawed and often tried to paint me BPD)  

GoingTST, give yourself closure on this one.  He is abusive, manipulative and controlling.  You deserve better than what he was giving to you.  He sounds like a real jerk to be honest.  I mean no offense.  I am a bit riled up right now.  Reading what you wrote brought me right back to my ex and my mom.  I feel for you... .it hurts and it sucks and I am so very sorry you had to go through all that.  

****So, as I have been reading the thread and thinking about the ST, I realized that I have made a clear distinction between needing some time alone to think and the silent treatment.  My ex did both of those.  I had difficulty with both, but much worse when it was ST.  The thing is, I reacted the very same way when it was him just being quiet or needing some thinking time.  I think it was Christoff who mentioned it triggers our fear of abandonment and I have to agree that that is true in my case.  I am no longer concerned when it is ST but I am concerned that I will still respond the same way when it is not... .I do fear abandonment and I know exactly why.  The challenge is to get myself through it without freaking out.  It seems I need someone to come over here, talk with me a bit and then go all quiet on me... .any volunteers?  I need to practice dammit!  

Okay, I'm going back to read some more.  I think I might have missed some important points.  Thanks everyone for all the replies.  

Hi again, Harri! I feel conforted that other people are going through the same (unfortunately), cause they are the only ones that truly understand!

You mentioned your ex wanted to teach you a lesson. My ex did too. And I told him "Im not a child to be grounded. You resume contact when you feel you punished me enough. That makes YOU the child, cause you are uncapable of normal communication".  :) Of course he denied it, but he listened to all I had to say. He sort of respected me for over a year (although I was walking on eggshells) and now just got back to his old habits. But I got it out of my system, at least he knows Im aware of his stupid game now.

If you want some reinforcement that ST is abuse, google the 3 words and you will find amazing articles. I saw my ex in most examples. I felt so validated!

To avoid being triggered, Id suggest you take a moment and think how imature that person is. Its really sad. The 2 passive-aggressive guys I dated had no social life, no love life and one managed to get married but it ended in divorce and the adult kids didnt want to have much to do with him. They are really self-sabotaging people, so selfish that they cant realize they get great partners and then ruin everything. I feel sorry for them, but instinctively ran away from the 1st one, I was sorry for him but at the same time felt the black hole there... .

Harri, I think ST is actually her claiming the exclusive right to be victim. She feels sleighted (imagined or otherwise) to satisfy her voracious appetite for victimhood.

Two weeks ago, we sat calmly and constructively during DBT, discussing how hurting someone we love satisfies a short term need, but does not get us what we want in the long term. I think in her mind this only applies to me. She perhaps convinces herself that she is exempt from that.

She is very highly functioning so she can definitely control it.  She does it every day.

OK, well her choices are her choices. I can't  control her. And yes the heartbreaking thing is that I will be engaged in a battle for my children's sanity between dependence and independence. Bullying versus loving, BPD versus healthy. She is teaching them the ways she was taught. God help me?

Louise, I did spend some time reading about ST and it did confirm that it is abuse.  I will remember what you said next time (I hope it never happens tho).  I will use Wools mantra of "It's not about me" when someone is just being quiet or needing some space. 

Moselle, I have been wondering how you are managing during your visit.  God will help you as you help yourself and your kids.  Give them the tools to fight her in good and healthy ways of course.  The witch part of her BPD especially concerns me in regards to your kids (you too BTW).  Have you ever seen her go into witch mode around your girls?  Earlier in this thread I mentioned Mood Gym, an online, free CBT course that can be geared for kids (I remember you said they currently do not have a counselor).  It is all fine for us to talk about not taking the abuse and walking away, but kids can't do that and I have no idea what kinds of tools can be used by kids so they are not annihilated by a Queen/Witch mother's rages and silent treatments. 

Be good to yourself Moselle during this visit.  I will be praying for you to maintain your strength and wisemind warrior state.   

Harri, that post is an answer to prayer. Thank you. My mind is racing. I'm there at 2 PM today. For the first night I decided to take the kids and stay  somewhere else. Just to break the initial ice. Saturday afternoon will be the big test. I will allow her to calm down and pray for the moment when I can hug her, sit her down and say basically that the abuse is over. It is over. Abuse of me abuse of the children. Shine the warm light on it. Calmly but firmly let her know, again that the game is over. She'll probably start blaming me. I'll smile warmly intil it fizzles out. Then I'll give her a hug, say we can do this together. She will hopefully get to the state where she was last time where we called my eldest in and W said sorry for hurting her self esteem. If I can get her there, I Will call them all in and make the Rubicon speech in a kind way. Shine the light on the dark places.

" If these things happen and you are made to feel bad by anyone, firstly you have the right to speak about about it. Come to me or if I'm not here, to uncle Ian, aunty Sam, or uncle Tony. (I'M going to prep these three adults beforehand)"

Family discussion: "What are we going to do? How do we handle it and let the person know we love them,  but don't accept the behaviour."

Something along those lines. I'l wait for my moment and if it doesnt come this visit. Then perhaps next time. Any feedback? Should I prep the kids beforehand.? I need W's involvement so she doesn't feel isolated. I know she desperately doesn't want her children to get this. That is my trump card.

Hi there A.  I read this earlier this morning before going to bed and I prayed that you would find a way or that I would be able to help you.  So, did you get some answers?  I don't feel like I did, but lets see if we can figure this out.

Your ideas seem sound to me and I like that you will have people ready for the kids.  I am not sure what the line is between telling your kids what they need to know and having your wife feel alienated and singled out by it all.  I think the kids needs trump mom's but I also think it is important to keep mom in the loop so as not to isolate her as you stated. 

Moselle, is there any way you can have the kids live with you during this separation? That would help to insulate them from the insanity and allow your wife to focus on DBT, maybe even get into a residential treatment program?  If she wants to get better and wants to give the girls a fighting chance, maybe she would be agreeable?

Moselle, I am getting into areas where I have no healthy understanding of how this should work.  My own fears and biases are clamoring to the surface and I am having a hard time separating it all.  Every instinct in me is saying take the girls and have them stay with you.  Consider the source here. 

Is that a possibility?

Hi Harri.

Thanks for your response. I'm sorry if this triggers you own experience.  That must be tough to deal with.

Realistically I can't take the kids right now, but I can get them out and have a break from the FOG. And teach them a better way.  I have to do it by example not by words though.  So its about pulling myself out of the mud first. I'm getting there.

Remember W is incredibly high functioning so.she impresses people. There realised a wow factor to her. Charming, caring. The perfect mother. This facade was taught her by her parents. And she knows this too. When she's not in denial. At home the queen and witch come out to play. Behind closed doors in the shadows, in the dark.

I did forget she is so high functioning.  I was focusing more on the fact that she is diagnosed.

I do still believe that you can offer them safe refuge and be an example of normal and healthy so I am still firmly on team Moselle.  Lord know you are doing everything in your power and then some.


Well, the darkness can be lessened as you keep shining your own light so brightly Moselle.

PS. It is not that I am triggered so much as I am not familiar with the process you are undertaking.  All I can do is go by what my internal signals are... .and they are hard to read as my mind is set on things like 'get out' and 'run' so the head is jumbling the gut messages if that makes sense.  As you are going through this journey and shining your light on your own experiences your light is spilling over into my own so even if I am triggered, it is good and healing.  Thank you.   :)

I had a long chat with my 13 year old. I asked how she was feeling and really gave her a chance to open up. She clams up (for obvious reasons) but I got her to talk about the pain of the separation. She had some tears and then I started to talk about how I now know she did not have a stellar example of how to have a relationship. I asked her if she understood that mom was abusive towards me, and she said Yes. I asked her if she thought W respects me. And she said 'no'. I said well I'm going to tell you and don't forget it, that if someone is abusive and disrespects you, you remove yourself from the situation and tell them that its unacceptable. And after that,  if they continue, you remove yourself from the relationship for your own good. And she agreed with me.

I hugged her alot, and kept on reminding her that I love her no matter what, I will always love her. I remembered what you said that it takes just one adult to love a child unconditionally,  to rescue them. I've also got a phone for them. So no more keeping me away from them!

I explained that mommy has a hard time controlling her emotions and that sometimes she will get mad at you. If she shouts, it is abuse. And you say it's unacceptable.  Then i prepared her that she would be told it's her fault and made to feel bad. That's when you leave. Go for a walk or go to your room.

She said mom has been doing better, and if she was angry she asked for space and went to her room. Wow. The CBT is paying off!

That is wonderful news.  Well done Moselle!  I am glad D13 opened up to you.  For your wife to say she needed some space is amazing.

Harri,


     Thanks for mentioning my thoughts.  Ive all ways thought that people who do this , do it out of their own insecurities of being rejected themselves, so they do it to you first. We also have to remember that people with BPD are not all ways thinking rational thoughts.  I remember how shocked I was when my ex all of a sudden turned on me. It was like  he was no longer the same person!  , and it didnt matter how hard I tried to sort things out and to be sorry. He didnt want to sort things out.  He wanted to run me through the coals over so many things that did not make any sense.

              Ive had to remember and Im still reminding myself of the amount of stress he had been putting me through and how according to his behavior he was making it a no chance thing that our relationship could ever have a future. I was the only one putting out actual actions that would bring us back together again. It was LD at this point. He told me story after story about how he wanted to come see me and how he was seriously considering coming to live here.  That changed as if these talks never happened and all of a sudden all he wanted was for me to magically somehow come to see him again knowing full well I had all ready spent every cent I had seeing him.

  +  I feel like he punished me because  I failed to live up to his unrealistic fantasies of how "I" was suppose to make everything right for HIM,  while he had no obligations to make anything right for me. I never used that word with him, (Obligations)  he did in reference to me.  I only wanted him to want to be with me because he wanted to. I learned that he was just too busy keeping things the way they were for "himself" with out having to exstend himself in any way.

not getting a job, never having any money, all ways the victim in everything he lacked having.

  This was his life style before he met me. Free loading off the state and using the corrupt government as an excuse to for ever remain a victim.

   After the first split he said he didnt love me the same anymore, which really hurt, but I couldnt figure this out because I hadnt changed a bit.  I was the same person.   It was like I wasnt the same person to him anymore because I had been dirtied some how.  He turned so mean.  A real A-hole and Im sure he knew it but didnt care. He was acting like a spoiled little kid who had gotten away with skirting the system and was some how proud of his self made victimhood, because he all ways knew he could pull out that card and get people to give him things for free. While I on the other hand had worked hard for everything I own.  I secretly resented him for not getting a job and getting his life together because listening to him complain about  how he was suffering  day after day, month after month   never doing anything to change this,  he all ways had excuses. It was so BPD,  it was exhausting to me. He'd almost have something good happen to him and then at the last minute is would fall through somehow. Then I started wondering how much of this stuff is he making up. Like he might be intentionally doing this to play with my emotions because he knew how much I wanted him to improve his life and make money< so he could come and see ME!

   It took a while for me to admit,  this is a very sick guy and I cant help him. Allowing things to fall through I believe was his secret pleasure.  I really dont know how he lives with himself after all the emotional torture he has put me through.  It didnt matter that I was all ways there for him as a really good friend if anything. He didnt want responsibility to himself let alone me.  He didnt want to have responsibility to anything! If I was acting subconsciously dis enchanted it was for a good reason, a good healthy reason. I often wonder if he wasnt picking this up. I suppose he got mad because a part of me I was trying to hide wouldnt play along with him anymore with in his fantasy world of getting things you want for doing nothing to make things happen in order to get the things you want. I was suppose to do it all. This is how BPD's use you.      I dont think he knew he was because he cant accept he's got a problem.  But all in all I feel like I was put through Hell with him , put through something that soley had to do with him,  and nothing to do with me.     

                I have to remember what he put me through to gain a good perspective over how well Im doing now with out all his mean spirited drama and strife.  He was controling and no one needs that. I was the one who felt obligated to all ways talk to him when he wanted to regardless of what was going on with me at the time.  My needs and problems got counted out while his all ways took precedence .  It got old.  Im tired just writing about this.  They hook you, and then they drain you and then they dump you.  Sweet Aye?   I wish I could get a plane ticket to England just so I could have the pleasure of slapping him across the face and pushing him into the wall.  That would be enough,  Id feel better and then go home.  ( :