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Hi.  I need/want opinions on this.  This is a fairly small issue, but it illustrates some of the issues I have in dealing with people, friends specifically.

Background:  Recently I made friends with a lady who seems to be very nice and friendly.  We both have the same crazy sense of humor and love to laugh.  We exchanged phone numbers, facebook and email.  The day after I met her I got one phone call, two emails, and three messages via facebook in a 24 hour period.  So she is a clinger.  <deep breaths>  I am very slow to open up to people.  I am also very slow to make 'friends'.  I have lots of acquaintances but few friends.  So this has been setting off alarms.  I have been able to slow her down by explaining I do not use the computer often, I don't check email, etc.  I have met her for coffee twice and one day she and i went to a meeting together but that has been it.

My issue:  last week at 4:14PM, she sent me a message saying she was very upset following an appointment she had with a doctor and did I want to meet her for coffee the next day.  I replied back at 5:30PM saying yes, and asked if 11:00 am would work for her.  I got no reply.  At 9:30PM, I sent her another message asking to confirm the meeting and time and I did not hear back from her that evening but according to facebook she opened the message at 9:51PM.  I was up until about 4am and then went to sleep and I did not set my alarm as I had not heard from her.  I woke up around 10:20 and saw she sent me a message at 10am saying "yes... .I'm sorry".   I replied at 10:27am saying:  "Good morning XXXXX.  I just woke up a few minutes ago.  I did not set the alarm because I had not heard back from you.  Do you want to chat here via PM?  I have am appointment this afternoon so I wont be able to meet you later either."  She replied saying no, she wanted to talk in person.  So I let it go and said we could set a meet time for another day.

So today, she sends me a message and we chat a bit and I ask her if she wants to meet Wednesday for coffee at 10:00am.  She replied saying yes and then she told me ":)on't forget to set your alarm this time".  I replied and said "I don't forget to set my alarm".  She replied saying "ooKaaaay... ." and then added an emoticon with eyes darting left and right.

Grrrr!  Okay, so this is bugging the crap out of me.  I have not replied back and i still plan to meet with her, but my heels are really digging in and I am feeling this urge to call her out and ask her if she was referring to the last meeting when I told her I did not set my alarm... .not that I "forgot"

yes, I know this is petty and stupid and childish... .but this is where I trip myself up time and time again with people.  I either let it slide and that sets off a series of events where I keep ignoring my gut OR I go in the opposite direction and directly state "I did not forget, I simply did not set the alarm because you never bothered to reply" and then I usually alienate the person.  I realize that I got very good at dealing with my Fruit Loop mother and dumb a*s father, but I realize the real world often needs a much softer tone and less in your face tactics.  amazingly enough, I did very well in my job and was often picked to deal with the more difficult people (thanks to my crazy parents no doubt!) but my personal life has been a struggle and it is even harder for me because I keep myself pretty isolated.  So while I may be 48 I am like 9 on the social development scale.    

so please, am I being too sensitive?  I am telling myself to just wait and see how this plays out on Wednesday, but I don't want to go in anticipating a problem cuz that is no fun.  All I want is to have some coffee with a pleasant and funny person.  I do not want a confidant or a best buddy... .I just want to get out a bit and have a pleasant conversation!

In the meantime, she is trying to insist that she takes me in for a surgery I have scheduled for next month... .I barely know her!  It is generous, but it is too much too quick for me.  I keep having to slow her down and that bugs me too. 

Help!

Harri - my gut reaction, just from what you've said, is that while this woman may be a perfectly fine human being, her quirks are going to be hard for you to take (for legitimate reasons.) My gut is also saying "Ack, clingy, no no no. BOUNDARIES EARLY ON."

I do wonder if I'm too trigger-happy on that kind of thing, but over and over again I meet people who will suck from me whatever I make available to them, so for us to have peaceable friendship, I have to just not make very much available to them. I don't think you're being oversensitive here. You are you; you are not an average human being who should behave according to average expectations. You are YOU, with your history and your understanding and your needs. And your responsibility is not to put a new friend's comfort above your inner alarms, even if they're not very loud.

Thank you claudiaduffy, for understanding and validating me and for giving me permission to be me.   

A peaceable friendship sounds about right in terms of what to aim towards with this lady.  She seems to want more or maybe I just don't know what normal friendships are... .but then again, as you reminded me, I am me and my responsibility is to listen to the warning bells.  The fact is, I won't be any kind of friend if I end up walking away because I did not set boundaries the way I should.

I feel sad at knowing I will have to limit myself with her.  I would like to have a close friend but I know it will take me a long time to get there.  I keep remembering what ziggiddy said in a thread.  something like 'if I immediately like someone right off the bat it is a signal that something is off'.  She said it way better than I just did, but it is true.  I missed that this time around, but I am thankful I caught myself very soon.

I seem to attract clingy people.  Ugh.  I ended up being very direct with the last two people who tried to cling and their feelings were very hurt because I was not setting strong boundaries from the beginning.  I wasn't cruel, but who likes to be told "please stop calling me 4 times a day or freaking out when I do not call you back right away because I feel smothered and you end up pushing me away".  Yeah, like I said, I can be very direct.  I don't know a nice way of saying that though.     Any thoughts on that?

The thing about the alarm sounds like a manipulative BPD thing to do - maybe she has it.  And the many texts etc. are a red flag.  I know you don't want to limit yourself with a potential friend, but she seems kind of dysfunctional and toxic.  That many emails etc. is odd unless you two were flirting or something.  A good friend is hard to find - I know.  Just be careful and set boundaries.  This seems like a relationship that happens too quickly and ends badly.

Niceness is not the same as kindness. Niceness is inherently less than honest. Kindness can be completely honest, yet with positive, constructive, beneficial emotional energy.

The conclusion I come to on this is that I can't be close to anyone who requires niceness from me. Emotionally and mentally healthy people - the people I want to be close to - can take directness, and I can be direct in a kind manner. It's not the same as being nice. This doesn't mean I can't be friends with touchy, somewhat volatile people, but I can't let them very close to me, and that's okay.

As an example - my best friend will on occasion call me 4x and email me 5x in one day. But she doesn't do this every day, and she doesn't get in any way upset if she doesn't get an answer from me for a day or two. She's contacting me because she has positivity towards me, not because she needs to get anything from me. If she's ever contacting me that much in a short span, it's either because she just keeps seeing or hearing random funny things that she wants to share with me, or because there's been a crisis that she's updating me on, or because she's trying to salvage a recipe gone wrong and wants my input. And if I can't answer, she accepts that and all is perfectly well.

As far as dealing with this new friend of yours - you don't have to explain everything to her, you know? I don't see anything wrong with your statement as above, but if you want to tone it back, just don't explain. Don't react to her spazzing out. Even if she's not BPD (there are a lot of people who behave in minorly disordered ways who don't have actual personality disorders), using the conversational tools on this site for interacting with pwBPD could help.

momtara, thanks!  I have been trying not to think too much about this as i do not want to go tomorrow with expectations set, but I think you are right in that she is dysfunctional and I feel a bit weird saying that because I am so aware of my own dysfunction.  It takes me back to what claudia said in her first post:  that her quirks are going to be a challenge for me.  I am going to wait and see how I feel about having that in my life right now. 

After your post I went back to read through all the messages from her (I never delete them... .too lazy!) to see if she was 'flirting' with me (Yes, I really can be that dense!) but I see nothing there.  She did come out to me but I am quite sure she knows I am not gay though I never actually said it, I think it is pretty clear.  You gave me something else to watch for though.  I would hate to see her hurt for something like that so I will keep that in mind. 

Claudia, I am going to have to keep reading your last post to me.  You have opened my eyes to the differences between niceness and kindness.  I am stunned.  What you wrote rings true.

I am hoping this r/s is not going to end badly, but as I have sat more and listened to my gut and thought about things, I do think it will need to end or perhaps be limited to facebook only.  Though maybe the tools will work... .and as I write that, I feel exhausted at the thought and have not even started trying!  I am also thinking that perhaps this is not the best time for me to be making such a decision.  I just need to get through the next 5 weeks and I should be able to breathe a bit better and perhaps my head will be in a better space. 

Thank you so much for your help.  I will probably post tomorrow after I meet with her.

thanks again!

So I met her for coffee this morning.  It was quick, only about an hour and it went okay but I have definitely decided to stop getting together with her.  She did not mention the alarm business again so that is good, but I am looking at my own responses and reactions to her.  I know she has red flags, but it is what I do in response that I need to watch and so far I have been in a holding pattern with her. 

In chatting with her these three or four times we have met, she has told me stories of where she has "been acting out of character" and telling people off, complaining to supervisors about workers, she has taken offense at things people say to her and when she tells me, I am usually stumped as to why she chooses to be offended.  So today, as she told me of yet another complaint, it all came together for me---> she wants to believe she is as laid back and relaxed and free as she has told me she is.  This seems to be more important to her than just accepting that some things bother her and she gets angry about them.  It is not so much her complaining that bothers me (though I do have a low tolerance for it), it is her lack of self awareness and self acceptance.  It is like she is trying to force herself to be something she really isn't.

So I came home and thought about it and I decided I will not be meeting with her again.  I agree that if this friendship continued it would not end well and I agree that her behaviors and my triggers just do not mesh well.

I also spent some time wondering what I am supposed to learn from this.  Previously, I thought I was being too picky, touchy, I am the one who is damaged and dysfunctional, etc.  And maybe I am, but that is me and it is where I am right now.  As Claudia mentioned, I am me with my history and experiences and I can't expect to apply average expectations to my situation.  So, it was so easy for me to recognize that my friend can not accept herself because I have the very same issue. I have been trying to force myself to act like a person who had a 'normal' childhood.  Well, I didn't and I can't fake it.    I may need to change some things about me but i will never be able to do that if I don't accept me with all my quirks as being 'normal' for me with my background and history.

Thanks for helping me with this.   

Hi Harri,

I'm reading your posts and this thread for the first time tonight. I was wondering if you know that there are a couple of articles here at BPD relating to healthy relationships?  I've printed them out for myself (have to read them yet) to help me as I try to figure out what that looks like. Seems as if now that I'm learning how to separate myself from some unhealthy relationships, I don't know how to re-establish and work at keeping them healthy. So I've still got work to do but thought perhaps they would help you too.

One is "Characteristics of Healthy Relationships" and the other is under a thread titled "How do you make healthy friendships?"

Let me know if you need the links and I'll see if I can figure out how to post them.

BTW, good job and kudos to you for being so much more aware than in the past and in listening to your internal red flags!  |iiii

Wools

I'm clapping big for you! This is good good good stuff. I'm glad your coffee went peaceably, but elated that YOU are coming to peace and clarity about how you want to proceed. 

Keep on being awesome, Harri.

Harri,

What the others have said about boundaries is good. I think you know that you have a right to peace, and it sounds like she is upsetting it. Do you feel like you still want to remain in contact and pursue a fruendship on any level, or do you want to quit cold turkey? There is nothing wrong with asserting your boundaries. Have you read up on SET, or thought about the validation tools? They can work with anybody, not just pwBPD.

Lack of self awareness?

And self acceptance?

Taking offense at what people say, and getting easily offended... .

Conflicts with co-workers... .(aka drama)

Coming on too strong and so quickly idealizing you as a friend.

Maybe she has BPD... .yes? If so, she may have just as quickly devalued you later... .who knows... .you may have dodged a big bullet :)

Anyway, you said you were  wondering  what  you  are supposed  to  learn  from this... .

I would say it is part of the learning curve of how to have effective radar about people.

Another poster saw it soon after you first posted, saying something like , " Uh oh! Too clingy and toxic".

Some people's radar is sensitive sooner than later. But I think this was a great experience for you to build your own radar system.  You got a few more nuts and bolts  into it. it will be more effective at alerting  you In the future.

It isn't always foolproof, but is intuition based on past experience. Nothing like experience. And

I think you handled this one excellently!

Yay  for you!   |iiii

Hi wools!  I am going to check out those two articles you mentioned here.  If I have already read them, then I obviously need to do so again.  Thank you for the recommendations and for your support!  It feel good.

claudia!  Thank you so much.  I am still a bit uneasy with just accepting me as I am.  This fits in with another thread I started about embracing my history without being a victim (sometimes I swear no matter how many different threads I start or post to, it is all just one big thread).  I have this hazy idea that by trying to act like I had a normal childhood is what has kept me from thriving and rather I have wallowed in my victimhood... .the very thing I despise and am repulsed by.  Oh the irony.  I am unsure of what embracing my past sounds like.  What words and phrases are used to describe an experience with acceptance?  I believe my words reflect my beliefs and in turn, I can access and change a faulty belief system by changing the words I use and speak.  So what are those words that empower and embrace rather than minimize or reject?  Just one or two examples that I can let rattle around in my mind would be nice.  Not to copy them, but to use as a springboard to whatever awaits me.

Does anyone have any thoughts on that?  Examples or suggestions?  Maybe this should be a different thread?

Turkish!  Hiya!  Yesterday I was all firm in my decision to stop meeting with her and just keep it to occasional contact via facebook where I can control my exposure, but now I am rethinking that too.  I think the tools will be helpful and will certainly help me with my social awkwardness so I am trying to learn to use them.  Thanks.

There was something else that happened yesterday morning with her.  We were both in our cars at the traffic light.  I was in the left lane, she was in the right and she pulled beside me and said through the window that I almost hit her car in the parking lot (I got out first).  I was all confused and said I had not even seen her.  Later on when I got home, I remembered that after I pulled out of my spot to drive through the rest of the lot, there was a silver car that started to back out as I passed but stopped because I was right there.  I thought nothing of it because it was not a close call, the car only moved backwards maybe 4 inches before stopping so there was no danger of it hitting me.  I kept going without a thought. 

I think that is what she was referring to when she said I almost hit her... .and sure enough, she drives a silver car.  So here she is rewriting history and 'blaming me' over nothing at all!  Why?  She was not mad when she said it but was smiling and wagging her finger at me.

So I am looking at my response, and it is typical.  I was totally unaware and hadn't a clue as to what she was talking about.  I did not ask for further explanation, but it was hardly the place.  Though when I got home I wanted to send her a message and sort of call her on it and see how she responded but I have hesitated because I am anticipating she will turn it around and make it seem like I am making a big deal of things rather than just trying to clarify.  And so I have done nothing but it is just clanging around in my head with all the other little things and I want to run again.

And so while I have had insight and understanding, I am still repeating patterns.

Hi Sparrow!  Thank you!  I was writing my response as you posted yours.  

Yeah, I dodged a bullet.  Just writing my last post about the car thing clinched it for me.  Yikes!  And I had just posted I was rethinking my decision to stop with her... .just a couple of minutes ago!  Talk about not trusting my gut!

Thank you for your encouragement.  It feels good especially as I am feeling all awkward and newbie-ish in the socializing department.  

The gut is our friend. It can be hard if we are transforming ourselves to be more social to determine what is healthy and what is not. Our instincts may be over-reactive based upon past trauma from parents and relationships with others. I don't think it's wrong to fall back on our primal instincts, however, as they can help keep us out of trouble. Have you seen this book:

The Gift of Fear? (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=101561.0)

A friend gave me a copy years ago (I need to get a new copy and reread it), and in it the author talks about this gut instinct and that our intuition is usually indicative of real danger. Tragically, many ignore it, especially women, and unwittingly become victims. I'm not saying that this person is going to go Single White Female on you, but so many things that you posted about it seem "off." I'm glad you are enacting those boundaries!

I have not heard of that book Turkish.  I will definitely add it to my read list so thank you.  (I just read the summary and I am definitely going to read it.  One of my T's long ago told me my internal danger warning system is broken and linked it to the abuse I experienced.  I have never really addressed that part of me, so I will make reading the book a priority.

Thanks for confirming my perceptions of her.  I need lots of practice and in the meantime lots of input from people who at least 'get me' and will be straight with me, so I appreciate it more than I can say.

Now I am in a bit of a pickle... .a small pickle but still... .I can't just cut her off without any word as I think that is cruel.  I don't need her to understand and I don't care if she decides I am crazy, but I do not want to hurt her if I can help it.  So she just sent me a message asking if I can give her a ride somewhere next week.  I am not available and told her so, but now what?  :)o I say this is a very busy and stressful time for me (it is) and that I want to just be left to myself?  Or do I tell her exactly why I don't want to associate with her?

Any ideas or suggestions?  

PS, I am crazy because I would much rather have to deal with my parents than deal with this.   :)  

It's really not the same as if it were an old friend, or even someone you'd known for several months. This woman barely knows you at all yet. You can simply slow waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down your response time to her requests. The next time she tries to access you, you can wait 24 before responding, and turn her down pleasantly but without over-explaining yourself. The time after that, wait 48 hours before responding. It's not really cutting someone off when you haven't had time to really have any sort of actual relationship yet. People do that (just stopping responding to contact) all the time, after a first or second date, and it's okay! There isn't anything owed other than respect, and you are not disrespecting her to back off without comment or malice.

Thank you Claudia.  That is excellent advice and once again, you have opened my eyes.  I have not responded to her latest message.  I will be honest and say when I think about this too much I hear the critical voice in my head saying I am being dishonest and cruel.  It is the voice of my mother.  When I listen closer though the quiet voice is calm and telling me this is right.

Thanks again claudia.   :)

Hey Harri!

I wanted to comment on something you said which I can so totally relate to:


Especially when I first began counseling, I felt like such a loser because I just couldn't get it. I felt like I couldn't change. I always, always, wanted to run at the first sign of conflict, and especially if it hinted at my needing to say something to another person because of course I instantly responded with a flight reaction to the thought of being confrontational. Perhaps it wasn't confrontational at all but just my preference. If it looked or acted like confrontation though, I sure responded as if it was indeed that. 

Needless to say, banging my head against the wall in frustration with myself, didn't help, but little by little my awareness changed. Your awareness is much more on alert now, point in case, and you've caught yourself sooner than you have in the past. That's progress, even if you feel it is small to you, it is still progress. I think it's huge progress! You've taken good steps! As your awareness in increasing, so too will your ability to handle it.

Remember my mantra, "This is a reflex reaction to long ago, from my childhood." You don't have to respond the same way as in the past, and I see that you are choosing not to. I too still have trouble, still want to run, but it is much less than in the past. I find the frequency of triggers and beating myself up is also getting less, and for you I'm sure it will also. You don't owe her an explanation, just as others here have posted. That was and is another thing that I'm learning and putting into practice on a daily basis.

One thing I've tried to embrace is the wonderful opportunity to learn how to deal with these situations (which I still hate). I've mentioned before that I get triggered by my DH's silent treatment 'with sound effects.' I finally came to realize that while I never had much opportunity to practice any of these principles with my now deceased uBPDm, I have a daily opportunity to learn and practice responding to my DH (who is so similar to my mom) what I didn't before with her. It is terribly hard, and I'm practicing every single day. I am getting stronger; I know it.

Keep up the good work, run the race with patience for yourself, and I'll preach to my own choir too! We can sing together, okay? 

Wools

Hi wools!  Thank you.  I think we can sing a lovely duet  :)  Thank you so much for your encouragement and support.  It helps and it helps to know I am not alone.  I feel like such a misfit sometimes, though I think I need to stop calling myself names   .  I can't change it until I accept it, right?  Calling myself names is not acceptance dammit! 

I am sorry your husband is like your uBPD mother.  Do you think he has BPD too? 


I think it is great that you can see that in yourself!  Obviously your hard work is paying off. 

You are so very welcome, my dear fellow human. =) I'm just passing along very good lessons other people kept telling me as I tried, weakly, to disentangle myself from codependency with my mom. It took a lot of small steps before I realized how small the steps actually were  :) and then realized that I was getting strong enough to take bigger steps into pervasive sanity, health, and a happily-boundaried life. Even all the times when I have to re-learn those lessons with a new situation or a new disordered person in my life, I'm gaining ground and getting stronger! I refuse to see them as setbacks.

Hi Harri!

I had a similar "friend" too. Met her through facebook, met a couple of times face to face and there was a lot of drama, although she could be fun too. She used to phone me and start her rants without a "how are you doing? are you busy?". She´s likely BPD/ HPD and raged at me a few times. I let it go and it just escalated. She feels relieved after a fight (her own words).

It took me a LONG time to detach, bit by bit. And I decided to go NC 3x until I finally erased her from my life. This is exactly why Im posting here: be careful or she will pull you back. Place strong boundaries, cut contact little by little and dong to back, otherwise it will be much more difficult.

Hi Harri,

No, my DH isn't BPD but he has depression. I think it could be what I think is called major depressive disorder. He can't see much positive (only on occasion) and just generally is down and negative and always has been. That tends to pull me down, and I've spent years propping him up, not realizing until recently that I've been enabling. I think it has been a co-dependent relationship all along, but given that I'm a child of a BPD, I've been the pleaser and made it work.

This past year has been one of those hard ones, with my working so hard with the help of my T to separate from the entanglement which I had unknowingly placed myself in. I feel that our relationship is much more healthy than it ever has been, but the pull to go back into the enabling is always there. And I struggle constantly with feeling guilty because we had a closer relationship when I was enabling; however, I cannot go back into that type of relationship anymore. It's too toxic, and it has never allowed me to be myself. That and my uBPDm never allowed me to figure out who I was.

I too am practicing boundaries, and now that I've separated emotionally, I have to keep alert to not get pulled back in by his depressive and controlling attitude. The controlling part is hard especially because it is so like the traits of my uBPDm. There are many parallels between the two of them (even he sees it), enough to keep me alert and unfortunately not too relaxed when I am at home. I'm very thankful for two wonderful jobs with supportive co-workers that have become a great source of acceptance and validation to me and who I am becoming. That helps me survive at home when it's tough. Sometimes I think it is so much tougher when you love them so much. Healthy love and relationships, that's what we are all working towards.

Wools

Hi, Harri,

You have already gotten some good responses in this thread. I thought you might like a direct link to the article Woolspinner recommended: Article 15: The Characteristics of Healthy Relationships  (https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a115.htm)

In reading your first post in this thread, I got the sense that you were really not very comfortable about this new acquaintance. I wanted to tell you to listen to yourself--your discomfort is there to tell you that you have boundaries you need to look after. It sounds like you have started to do that. You do not have to be everyone else's emotional caretaker, just your own. Focus on honoring your own feelings rather than worrying how someone else is going to feel if you say no.

It is also not necessary to sit down and have a heart-to-heart about all the reasons you don't want to continue a relationship with someone. In line with what claudiaduffy said, maybe that would be the mature thing to do if you were breaking up with a long-term-boyfriend, but in the case of an acquaintance, it's really ok just to let things fizzle out. You don't have to return every message or call (especially not right away), and you don't have to Justify, Argue, Defend, or Explain any decision you make. The Communication tools (SET, PUVAS, DEARMAN) (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=69272.0) can help when you do want to talk, but it's also good to keep in mind that "No," is a complete sentence. "No, thanks," is the "nice" version.   

If I'm understanding your later question correctly, you're interested in learning how to accept the abuse in your past without playing victim now. Is that right? It does take some sorting through. The Remembering stages in the Survivor's Guide have to do with accepting the reality that we were abused as children. We can come to terms with the fact that we could not control what happened to us back then and that other people were responsible for making us feel scared, ashamed, or powerless. Back then, we were victims. During this phase, it is important to find ways to validate our "inner child" and give ourselves the love and compassion we needed as children. As we move on to the Mourning and Healing stages, we can begin to make distinctions between our experiences as children and our experiences as adults. Adults have the ability to leave situations that make us uncomfortable, to assert ourselves, to take responsibility for our own behaviors and feelings. We are not helpless victims in a world full of people who are out to get us; we are survivors who can resolve what happened to us in the past and begin to create our own happiness in the present.

Personally, I have not seen much of a current Victim mindset from you in your time here on the boards; you seem to be looking for ways to improve your own behavior and make healthier relationship choices. An adult who is struggling with staying stuck in Victim mode would be more likely to come here looking for others to help pile on about how horribly the people in their life are behaving without taking any responsibility for their own choices, or have an "us vs. them" mindset. The workshop we have on the  Karpman Drama Triangle (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108440.0;all) really helped me a lot to be able to identify the roles of Victim, Rescuer, and Persecutor. I really like the stuff in there about The Empowerment Dynamic--moving from Victim to Creator, for example. It might help clarify some things for you. Does that help at all with your question? Did I even understand it right?

Wishing you peace,

PF

, thank you for the encouragement.  I am sorry to hear you've had the same experience though.  So far she has only sent me a few messages on facebook, but I have not responded.  They are not messages that require a response from me though, she just says Hi Harri! 

Wools, thanks for sharing that part of your life.  I admire your drive to reach and maintain a healthy place within your relationship.  It can't be easy, but there you are, doing it!   |iiii


It is interesting to me that you say your relationship is more healthy, yet less close than it was.  I don't understand the difference enough between healthy vs. close to find the words to say exactly why that is so interesting to me though.  I think in my mind and limited experience that close is more along the lines of enabling/enmeshment and that I need to understand and explore the meaning of healthy relationships and redefine these concepts, so thank you for the recommendation for the article and to PF Change for the link!

P.F.Change, thank you for the links and for your response.


I am starting understand what it means better than I have in the past, however, how do you know when it is your gut telling you to protect a boundary or when the signal to distance or run is fear based on the past?  Is it a matter of waiting to see how things play out over time?  Perhaps re-evaluating along the way?  In thinking of how it was with my ex, I can see where I ignored my gut that was telling me to be careful, not to get involved romantically with him, but at the time, I thought it was my fears and insecurities that were telling me to run so I ignored them and tried so very hard to work things through.  In some ways I came out stronger and I certainly learned a lot, but in other ways I am even more entrenched in staying to myself and hiding.  He betrayed me and took advantage is so many ways, and I let him because I trusted his perceptions more than mine because my reality was so messed up for such a long time.  In the end, I betrayed myself.

This whole concept of not having to explain myself is giving me pause.  I think of my own hurt when others have suddenly stopped talking to me with no explanation and I realize I have been assuming others feel the same.  The fact is I do not know that for sure.  More importantly though, I now realize my hurt was more tied to the silent treatments of my mother and her taking off when she was so upset.  That fear and hurt that I felt as a child came with me as I grew older and my own fear of abandonment pretty much ensured that I would push people away AND feel hurt and less than human when they did stop talking to me or walk away (not even in anger... .just circumstances).


This is definitely going to stick with me!  It is quite freeing and I am thinking about a couple of relationships where I have said no and it did not go over well.  Specifically with a couple of people at work and one in particular.  I have wondered for a while if these people had issues, and I can see now that they did.  Their problems combined with mine did not make for good communication at all.  I took my difficulties with them as all of my responsibility due to being 'socially deficient'   and while that is true, it was more the interlocking wounds that caused us to push each others buttons.  I had mentioned a comment I made to someone earlier in this thread and claudiaD said she saw nothing wrong with what I said... .and that opened my eyes.  I've been looking at the reactions of the recipient of my comment to gauge how appropriate the comment was.  That is not a good gauge to use at all.  I am uncertain what is though.  I am afraid that I will go to the opposite extreme and assume that there is something wrong with every one else rather than assuming I am the wrong/damaged/rotten person.  How to find balance?

P.F.Change, you did understand my question correctly about how to accept my past without playing victim.  I read those stages and I see myself at several different points depending on the incident/abuse.  One of the defense I use is to compartmentalize things.  Until about 10 years ago, my professional life and prior to that my academic life was very separate from my personal life.  I think it was vital at the time for me to get through and do what I needed to do, but it also put limits on each aspect of my life.  It is like I have a box for each aspect of my life and they stand close together but never touching.  The lids are open now, and maybe a side or two of the boxes are going down, so I have a lot of integrating to do.  In some areas, I am quite good and in others I feel like a newborn.  So where am I going with all that?  Haven't a clue but I think we are onto something.  Thanks for re-directing me to the survivors guide.  Even though it is right there on the page for each post, I still fail to see it!  LOL

I will re-read the Karpman Drama Triangle.  It is an excellent article but it has been a while since I read it so thank you for the reminder.  As much as I do not want to be a victim, I do sometimes feel the urge to point the finger at others.  I know it serves no useful purpose in terms of healing myself but (!) I have spent most of life always blaming myself and looking to myself (basically victimizing myself for being abused) and never really looked at the role of the other person.  I don't know if that is common or not for people on this board.  I do think though that even that, looking at myself, was done in unhealthy ways.  I look within and find myself lacking, wrong, cruel, any number of negative things... .and I just realized that is not introspection at all.  Rather it is me playing some masochistic game with myself. 

Damn. 

(and why on earth is it so hard to actually hit the post button on this one?  Yes.  YES, I do have issues!  ) <--- that is from the angry adolescent with a bad attitude that is still within me.   

Okay, over the last month or so I have tried time and again to read the articles on the communication tools like SET, PUVAS, DEARMAN and I just do not have it in me to learn these techniques.  I feel like i have already done all the tip toeing, validating of others, showing sympathy and understanding that I possibly can.  Not with the situation that prompted this post, but in general.  I am tired of dealing with people who jump to the worst possible conclusion.  I am tired of people who do not even try to see me without looking through their own filters and biases or those who can't even acknowledge that they may be projecting their own crap on me.  I am tired of dealing with people who can't be wrong and who are not willing to give me the benefit of the doubt. 

I feel like every last bit of energy I have has been drained.  When I go to read those articles and the associated workshops my eyeballs roll back in my head and I instantly want to fall asleep.     I feel like I have reached a point in my life where I no longer want to spend time and energy wrapping things up in pretty paper and putting a freaking ribbon on it.  I want to yell "decide if you like/want what I am offering or leave me alone.  Enough is enough already".

I am taking that as a cue that I am a bit (sarcasm) blocked on this.  I am going to take a nap. 

The Karpman triangle stuff I can do.  It is about changing me... .not coddling another and twisting myself around so someone else gets to be who they are while denying me the same right. 

If anyone can see what I am doing to myself here and cares to help me out, I would appreciate it because I have been trying.  I have a very strong feeling I am all twisted in my thoughts.  Or perhaps I am just selfish.  Is relating with people really supposed to be this difficult?

Hi again Harri,

I try to take these "dealing-with-pwBPD" strategies with a "grain of salt". The question one needs to ask is: "Is it worth going through all of these machinations, walking on eggshells and such, or is NC (or LC) a preferred option?" Or maybe one needs to use them to remain grounded while they slowly extricate themselves from the situation.

Now that I am aware of BPD, I certainly couldn't imagine a continued life constantly stepping through the emotional "minefield". (So, I elected the extrication path. )

Anyway, I view the strategies as possible (but not necessarily satisfactory) routes to avoid NC/LC. As the one of the pirates said in that Johnny Depp movie, "... .[they're] more what you'd call guidelines... ." It's good Keep them in the back of your mind, but it's you who must really decide when and how to use them. I have seem some scripts floating about here and there, but again, you probably don't want to use them verbatim. pwBPD are very good at spotting insincerity and will pounce on anything that seems contrived.

If NC is not an option, then best to learn the techniques, keep them in your "hip pocket", and apply your own spin as necessary.

There are certainly quite a few of these strategies. Certainly not all of them are useful for every situation. I think one needs to scan them to establish their utility to a given situation. Then pick some (or one) that seem specific to the issues at hand. Trust your judgement/intuition in the selection process. JADE is my favorite and seems to apply to my circumstance. But I am not always able to execute on that. That's okay, I try to learn and adapt from each experience.

Does this make sense?


Cheers,

Jema

Jema, thank you so much for helping me to refocus and get centered.  You are so right.  Those tools are good to keep in my back pocket and think of them as guidelines ( :) ) rather than absolutes.  I lost sight of that and was feeling all frustrated and resentful <--- not a good or productive place to be at all! 

P.F.Change, I did read through the article on healthy relationships (I left that out in yesterday's rant!) and I really found it useful in terms of what to aim for and things to check when interacting with others.  So thanks to you and Wools for the recommendation.

My friend XXXXX did send me facebook messages asking me if I was okay and how I was feeling.  I did answer, but kept it short.  She replied by asking me if she had offended me in some way.  I told her no she had not (which is true) and explained that even in the best of times I tend to stay within myself and like a lot of space.  She persisted a bit but I explained that this is a very stressful time and I tend to keep to myself when stressed, that is just the way I am.  So we shall see.  I think the slow withdrawal is the best option and that it will work.  I did feel like I was explaining myself a bit, but it also felt okay at the time.  It still does, but I will watch myself.

Thanks for your input everyone.  You all helped me a lot and I appreciate it very much.

Hi Harri,

I think it's OK for you to feel what you feel, whether it's "oversensitive" or not.  What I've learned, however, in similar situations is that it doesn't do much good to explain this to another person or to justify our behaviors or responses.

I'm a little bit more concerned for you for another reason.  The way you describe this interaction so far has my "spidy" senses up a bit.  It sounds like she's going through something difficult and is, possibly, looking for a shoulder to cry on. I think your right to be a little perturbed by the over-friendliness and her over-doing it with her contacts with you.  It sounds a bit too much to me and could indicate that she may not turn out to be such a good friend.

So, I'd say proceed with caution.  If you meet with her remember that it can't be all about her or her health issue because then she's just using you the way she should use a therapist.  Why do I say this?  Well, I don't know you well enough to know how you react, so I'm basing this advice on lessons I've learned.  We have that whole "overdeveloped sense of responsibility" thing as children of dysfunction that can make us easy prey for emotional pariah.

So, I think you should trust what your gut seems to already be telling you: proceed slowly.  In my experience it takes at least one year to fully know another person, if not more.  I follow a 3-month rule.  I have to know someone for 3 months before I decide whether or not to "invest" in a friendship with them and then I'm still careful for at least a year in terms of what I share about myself personally.

Of course we have trust issues - we were, essentially, raised in the forest by wolves!    |iiii

The communication tools are helpful when you are trying to communicate. They're very good for what they're designed to do, which is to assert one's position in a way that might reduce potential emotional blowback from the other party. When the other party feels heard and validated (note--this is NOT the same as agreeing with them), it is more likely the situation will remain more neutral. That said, there's nothing wrong with feeling worn out by the idea of using SET right now. I think it's a good skill to have, but not necessary for every single interaction with someone. As I said earlier, "No" works just fine much of the time, too.  *)

To me, it sounds like the job you are really working on right now is matching your boundaries to your values: BOUNDARIES: Upholding our values and independence (https://bpdfamily.com/content/values-and-boundaries). It sounds like you are tired of interacting with certain kinds of people. It might be really helpful to try and articulate what your values are when it comes to yourself and your relationships, and to find ways to look after your needs in a way that is consistent with those values.

For what it's worth, just to clarify, SET and the other tools are not about coddling or taking care of other people's feelings--though they do require us to at least pretend we are working on our own empathy skills. :) It's not our job to manage other people's emotions, only our own. I think the tools are about respecting ourselves as much as they are about respecting the other person. They will not change other people and cannot control anyone's reactions, though they can sometimes help keep things from escalating (certainly not always). We don't teach these tools in order to keep people enmeshed and defeated or to encourage people to continue walking on eggshells. On the contrary, they're there to help us gain the skills we need in order to stand up for ourselves and define our relationships in a mature way. They are useful skills to have in all relationships, not just when interacting with someone who has a PD. So when you do feel up for it, it's something you might consider coming back to later.

Harri I have not read all the answers perfectly thoroughly so may be repeating stuff.

I thought of a phrase I once heard

"Low self esteem says do people like me?" High self esteem says ":)o I like that person?"

You are scared of failing at friendships and you are worried you are not doing enough, trying hard enough trusting your instincts enough, fighhing your childhood enough, repeating dynamics too much.

PHEW!

No wonder you want to take a nap!

I am not sure why there seems to be a time urgency for this? Do you feel you have to sort everything straight away? I wonder if your folks were impatient with you "Quick Harri! Think! Feel! Fix it! FIX IT RIGHT NOW!"

There are plenty, PLENTY of people in this forum who read and reread what you write. That shows you are great at expressing yourself. There are plenty of people here who want to support you - that shows you are a warm worthwhile lovable person.

What I'm saying is it's all ok. Whatever you are feeling. It's ok to just FEEL it without having to explain it. Self compassion, hun. Be KIND to yourself - you've EARNED it.

It is completely ok to not want to hang out with someone. you don't need to explain this. Most people get it and WON'T punish or blame you. And if they do, then you know for sure they are not a good fit for you.

You deserve to have friends who accept whatever limitations you have.

And I am so overwrought by your distress that little Zig just went to hide under the slide. She wants to know if you want to hide there too for a bit. We could have icecream if you like?

Coming in late on this!  Harri, you are so articulate.  Thank you for taking the time to write out the details.  To everyone else, such good feedback.  I can imagine that to some, who are more "normal" or not encumbered by the type of past we here share, the details of these encounters and your feelings and reactions may be boring!   

I want to tell you how much I get it.  The whole second guessing, am I too thin skinned, too whatever, not enough whatever. what is wrong with me and my radar, on and on.

Communication tools, here I come.

Ice cream?  Did someone say ice cream?   

Hi Harri,

Sounds to me like your "gut" is working fine (even though you're not totally sure about it).  Not confirming an appointment and then blaming you for not showing up is just plan rude.  And yes it sounds like she wants to get involved and share way too much way too fast.  I also want to validate your self-awareness in questioning if your perceptions seem skewed.  I really don't think they are in relation to this situation you were able to spot those pesky red flags   

I think everyone else had good advice and I agree just let this fizzle out and don't feel guilty about it    It is okay to let this acquaintance go.  If you had decided to let a long term friendship go then I think more discussion with that person might be warranted but in this situation it's really not needed.

I guess I'd also like to point out that there are many levels of friendships. Not everyone you are friends with has to be your "kindred spirit" and some friends may even have some qualities that you don't really like but can overlook because they have other overriding qualities you do like and other friends you just hit it off with right away, other friends may just involve a particular interest that you both have in common.  Friendships also change sometimes moving closer and sometimes moving apart just because people change over time.  So along with listening to your "gut feelings" also maybe think about the scope of the friendship. 

I have a friend for instance that can be manipulative in the ways she goes after things she wants however she is also very generous, thoughtful, fun, funny and very outgoing.  I was aware of the manipulative side and as long as that was kept in check regarding me and our friendship I was fine.  Five years later that began to shift and I began to feel used so I have placed some emotional distance between us and don't hang out with her nearly as much as we had in the past.  I also put up some boundaries up around what I will and won't do for her.  It's what I had to do for me.  We are still friends just not as close but in a place that I feel comfortable.

Keep listening to that voice inside you.  If it tells you someone isn't right for you... .then someone isn't right for you.

Keep up all the good work your doing great  |iiii

P.F.Change, thank you for the direction on matching values and boundaries!  I have been thinking about that and actively working on it the past couple of days.  It is actually hard to identify my values.  Most of the boundaries I have expressed successfully were with my parents or only kicked in once situations/relationships had reached toxic levels because I did not set boundaries from the beginning.  As I've said before, they were hard lined and pretty in your face as that was what was needed and by then my emotions were at an all time high.  I think I am going to have to do a lot of checking with myself and maybe here as I work on this issue. 

Also, I want to thank you for reminding me of the value of the tools.  I have recommended them to people here because I do know they work and are useful.  When I bi*ched about them here, I was very grumpy about the need for them to begin with and I was focusing on what I wished were reality rather than just accepting what is.  It does frustrate me at times that there are people out there who were raised in 'normal' families who do this stuff naturally.  It just comes naturally to them.  They don't have to think about them and stress out over being too sensitive.  I don't often have pity parties for myself, but I did do that here.  I'm sorry.

Ziggiddy, thank you.  I definitely do get caught up in thinking I should have already mastered this and I should have more friends than I do have, etc.  I am not sure my parents ever tried to hurry me along with stuff.  I don't remember that being an issue.  I do remember being told I was 'born knowing how to talk to people and behave' and I was often asked for advice and opinions and was relied upon to make decisions at a very early age.  So maybe that is where the pressure to get this done comes from?  Am I still thinking there is some part of me that automatically knows all this stuff?  I dunno.

Also, thanks for you kind words.  I do feel very supported by the people here though I am always somewhat surprised that people do respond.  Everyone is so giving and patient even when we may not agree on certain things.  It really is a unique board in terms of the support and compassion offered here.  I am thankful to be a part of that. 


Somehow I am going to have to get this through my head.  I *always* go to "what is wrong with me" and "why don't people like me" and that needs to change.  I don't expect to be liked by everyone (though i would not mind that) and I am aware that I am more of an acquired taste and i need to be truly okay with that.  Thanks for that Zig.  Rather than me being bad or them being bad, it is simply a matter of being a poor fit.  That sounds more balanced.

So I process things as I am writing and I never really know where I am going to end up.  After writing that last part about needing to be okay, I immediately thought about the fact that I will self-sabotage how people see me.  (I think I spoke of this on another thread but I don't remember where.  It may even have been this one.    )  I want to make sure people know I am a jerk, flawed, not good on my terms rather than have them find out later after I have grown to like them.  That way I protect myself from being hurt when they decide I am not someone they want to be around.  And this is in conflict with what I said in the above paragraph about not expecting to be liked by everyone.  Why would I self sabotage if I truly felt that way?  So there is a disconnect there... .  Ugh.  Where to go with that?  I have no clue.

I am sorry Little Zig got upset.  Little Harri has not been around for a long time.  I was thinking she was grown up but does that ever truly happen?  I am starting to doubt it.  So I would like to join you under the slide and maybe little Zig will come out and have some icecream.  No cone for me though.  I prefer a bowl because the cones get in the way of the good stuff!   :)

Jman, Indie and panda, thank you so much for your support.  It means more than I can say to have you all read this and give me feedback.  You all telling me to listen to and trust my gut is something i really need to hear.  I have learned not to trust it because trusting it was a direct threat to my safety when I was a kid so unlearning that is so very challenging. 

Indie, thank you for saying this thread helped you too.  It still seems like a silly problem to me, but it is usually the small things that trip me up and then lead to bigger issues.  Grab a spoon (or a cone) and come join us under the slide!

Panda, thanks for your input re: the scope of friendship.  It makes sense and it is something I have been trying to work on so your examples are very helpful.  It sounds like you have really mastered this friendship business!

As a final note, I think I have chased this friend off and I am okay with that.  She had messaged me again wanting to go for coffee and I refused.  She then posted a bunch of annoying stickers in our chat showing her eating junk food (she is not supposed to due to health issues) drinking (she is an alcoholic) and ended with one with tears streaming down her face.  That annoyed me to no end so I replied that I will be very busy for the next month so I will not be available which is true.  I have had one major source of stress favorably resolved (as in I will not be losing my home and all my possessions!  |iiii) and will hopefully get more good news in the next two and a half weeks and then i should be able to breathe and focus a bit better than I have.  I do not need to add more stress and annoyance to my life.  So after that, if she still contacts me I am just going to tell that I don't think we are a good fit (or whatever).  I don't want to leave it hanging if she has not gotten the message but with that last bit with the stickers I have firmly moved her into the bat s*it crazy bin.   

Thanks again for listening and sticking with this post! 

I am only new here but found the way you worked through the issue very inspiring. Keep up the good work.
To me this sounds like an attempt at manipulation by guilt. Red flag material if anything was and the near collision. She would have been in the wrong if there had been one. So, obviously she twists everything around until she is in the right.

You are doing really well tuning-into your gut instincts.  |iiii


You mean it frustrates you that you have to work over-time at it, and others had this dropped into their laps gift-wrapped with a ribbon on it? 

It's just that your senses are confused. They are functioning well, they are just conditioned differently. Like when you have been out at sea for a long time, and step off onto solid ground, it feels like the ground is moving. 

If you take a while, your inner-ear adjusts and the ground "stops moving".

There will be a day when you don't give it much thought either, and will be doing things more naturally.

Hi K-bear, and welcome!  Thank you.  I am glad if this helps someone else too.  I agree that she tried manipulation tactics through guilt and little does she know, but that is one of my hot buttons.  I get angry with that type of behavior but I am more repulsed by it than anything so this whole potential friendship is over for me.  I am just thankful she is showing this so early on and that I am at a point where I can see it before it becomes too big of a problem. 

Pessim-optimist, thank you for the encouragement and for the new perspective re: my gut instincts.  It makes me happy to think that someday this stuff will be second nature to me.   I was wondering how to tell the difference between fear which sometimes tells me to run and a good gut instinct that tells me to run.  So far, the only thing I have come up with is that the healthy "run" message is the quiet one in the back saying clearly and calmly to run, something is wrong, etc rather than the loud panicky one.

You're welcome, Harri.


That's a really good way to look at it.

Also, if you ask yourself: Ok, I feel like I need to run. Why do I need to run?

If the answer is something like: 'because this person will get to know me, and they will not like me' that's clearly fear. Even here, it might be a signal that perhaps you see already that you have some deep differences and may not be compatible, and you fear that you will get to know each other, and then drift apart and you are afraid that it might turn awkward, or painful, but it's also a possibility that it's just plain fear.

However, if the answer is: 'because I see these behaviors    that are not healthy.' or simply 'because this person creeps me out'. Then it's your gut talking. Again, some unhealthy behaviors may be ok to tolerate in an acquaintance, as nobody it perfect, but the more   , the less close the r/s needs to be to keep yourself safe.

Thank you, Pess-Opt!  Those are wonderful questions to use as a self-check.

So now I need to get a group of crazy people and normal people, get friendly with them and then do some gut assessment and use the self-check questions!   :)  Okay, I can do this.  I just have to come out of my cozy shell... .  and I can do that too.

Thanks again everyone!