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I'm just watching a video on psychopaths and they share a lot of similarities with pwBPD which I'll list below, so are pwBPD, just a different brand of psychopath?

1. Superficial charm.

2. They're a chameleon, they wear a mask.

3. Grandiose sense of entitlement.

4. No feeling of guilt.

5. Never taking responsibility.

6. Easily bored.

7. Impulsive.

8. Highly envious.

9. Lack of empathy.

10. Pathalogical lying.

11. Highly manipulative.

- side note, my ex had a strange obsession with serial killers and nazis, she was definitely BPD, I'm thinking psychopath aswell.

I was listening to an interview with a guy who wrote a book about spotting and keeping away from dangerous people. Not necessarily people who were going to harm you physically but  people who were emotionally abusive, users, manipulate rs, people who wreak havoc on your life. He used the word psychopathic. He was describing my BPDxbf.

Hmmmmmmm... .I know someone who resembles those remarks... .I really do know someone... .

my ex was a high functioning BPD, which after reading about psychopath . which is a very hard thing to accepted.

My understanding about psychopaths is that they don't experience the anxiety and fear that a pwBPD does.  Would a psychopath experience abandonment and engulfment fears?  My vote is no. I too wondered if my ex was a psychopath.  He certainly has many of those traits.  But he experiences way too much anxiety, and fear, to be a psychopath.  

Robert Hare wrote a book called "Without Conscience:The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us."  It's well worth reading.  

There's an article that touches on your question by Steve Becker (See snippet below)  

Full article:  www.lovefraud.com/2012/04/30/differentiating-the-sociopath-from-the-borderline-from-the-narcissist/  (http://www.lovefraud.com/2012/04/30/differentiating-the-sociopath-from-the-borderline-from-the-narcissist/)

"The borderline and narcissist are both notorious vacillators along the idealizing-devaluing continuum. They are both “splitters” in the sense of perceiving others in rigidly black and white ways. When in their good graces, you are fantastic; their greatest luck and good fortune was to have met you; but disappoint them, and you are likely, suddenly, abruptly, to qualify as the worst, most despicable person they ever had the misfortune to cross paths with.

Sociopaths, in this sense, may be so disconnected, so pathologically disengaged from, and indifferent to, the emotional lives of others that, paradoxically, they may bring less of this particular kind of “splitting” drama to the table than borderlines and the typical narcissist.

This isn’t to suggest that sociopaths don’t “act out” in an outrageous variety of destructive ways. They can, and do."

So basically they are psychopaths with a fear of abandonment/engulfment, and an idealise/devalue expansion pack.

Some lack impulsivity, low occurrence of anxiety and depression, no sense of empathy or morality.

They're different medical conditions.

BPD is a medical condition where people display impulsive behavior, unstable moods and interpersonal relationships.

I read somewhere that are are subtypes of psychopathy: primary and secondary. Primary is mostly genetic and secondary is caused mostly by the abusive environment during childhood. Secondary psychopathy they say manifests similar features as BPD and shows similar levels of antisocial behavior.  So at least some people think there is connection. I would agree with that based on my experience.

No,  but they can slip into psychosis.

The psychopath pwASPD is the apex of the cluster B club and would make mincemeat of a pwBPD in the manipulation stakes.

A true psychopath has NO exploitable emotions at all,  BPD have numerous "weakness" in their game.

PwBPD do have emotions,  very strong ones and they do have a conciounce,  it's just subsumed by the disorder.

Psychopath has total emotional control and no conciounce whatsoever.  They will stop at nothing to a achieve their goal,  and don't fear anything

Berg',

Is the name BPD not stigmatizing enough?   :) 

Perspective and context.  The APA didn't develop the 10 personality disorders to be way to stigmatize others (or feel better about ourselves) - they were developed to help people. 

When asking differential questions about personality disorders or multiple personality disorders, it is important to ask yourself why you are asking the question and how you intend to use the information. Without this perspective and focus, the data may be overwhelming, confusing and misleading.  For example... .

~ if your child is not responding to therapy, it makes sense to look more carefully into the possibility that the wrong personality disorder was diagnosed or whether there are comorbid (multiple) personality disorders at play.

~ If you are trying to get along better with your wife, it's not as important to pinpoint the specific disorder or analyze the comorbidity as it is to recognize and fully understand the problem behaviors and how to constructively deal with them.  

~ If you are recovering from a failed relationship, the important thing is often to understand which behaviors were pathologic (mental illness) and which were just the normal run of the mill problems common to failing/failed relationships - there is often a bias to assign too much to the "pathology" and not enough to common relationship problems, or the issues we created by our own behaviors.

It's helps to know that the distinctions have, historically,  are not all that neat and tidy. In a 2008 study using the DSM-IV criteria, co-morbidity with another personality disorder was very high at 74% (77% for men, 72% for women). This is one reason why there is controversy around the DSM-IV classifications of Personality Disorders - there is so much overlap it is confusing even to professionals.  In 2013, the DSM will redefine these disorders and people that do not neatly fall into one of 6 types/patterns, will be classified as Personality Disorder Trait Specified (with a trait profile based on the following criteria (http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions/Pages/proposedrevision.aspx?rid=23))

Under the DSM-5 Classifications

Comorbid w/BPD-------------- Paranoid Schizoid Schizotypal Antisocial Histrionic Narcissistic Avoidant Dependent OCD More info (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=58157.msg541921#msg541921)

Men----------- 17% 11% 39% 19% 10% 47% 11% 2% 22%

Women------- 25% 14% 35% 9% 10% 32% 16% 4% 24%

Some helpful hints for sorting through this.

• General and Specific There are definitions for "personality disorder" as a category and then there are definitions for the subcategories (i.e., borderline, narcissistic, antisocial, etc.).  Start with the broader definition first.  Keep in mind that to be a personality disorder, symptoms have been present for an extended period of time, are inflexible and pervasive, and are not a result of alcohol or drugs or another psychiatric disorder - - the history of symptoms can be traced back to adolescence or at least early adulthood - - the symptoms have caused and continue to cause significant distress or negative consequences in different aspects of the person's life. Symptoms are seen in at least two of the following areas: thoughts (ways of looking at the world, thinking about self or others, and interacting), emotions (appropriateness, intensity, and range of emotional functioning), interpersonal functioning (relationships and interpersonal skills), or impulse control

• Spectrum Disorders  An extremely important aspect of understanding mental disorders is understanding that there is a spectrum of severity. A spectrum is comprised of relatively "severe" mental disorders as well as relatively "mild and nonclinical deficits".  Some people with BPD traits cannot work, are hospitalized or incarcerated, and even kill themselves.  On the other hand, some fall below the threshold for clinical diagnosis and are simply very immature and self centered and difficult in intimate relationships.

• Comorbidity Borderline patients often present for evaluation or treatment with one or more comorbid axis I disorders (e.g.,depression, anxiety disorders, bipolar disorder, ADHD, autism spectrum disorders, anorexia nervosa, bulimia nervosa). It is not unusual for symptoms of these other disorders to mask the underlying borderline psychopathology, impeding accurate diagnosis and making treatment planning difficult. In some cases, it isn’t until treatment for other disorders fails that BPD is diagnosed.  Complicating this, additional axis I disorders may also develop over time.  Because of the frequency with which these clinically difficult situations occur, a substantial amount of research concerning the axis I comorbidity of borderline personality disorder has been conducted. A lot is based on small sample sizes so the numbers vary.  Be careful to look at the sample in any study -- comorbidity rates can differ significantly depending on whether the study population is treatment seeking individuals or random individuals in the community.  Also be aware that comorbidity rates  are generally lower in less severe cases of borderline personality disorder.

• Don't become an Amateur Psychologist or Neurosurgeon  While awareness is a very good thing, if one suspects a mental disorder in the family it is best to see a mental health professional for an informed opinion and for some direction - even more so if you are emotionally distressed yourself and not at the top of your game.  

I hope this helps keep it in perspective.   :)

Skippy

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Additional discussions... .

Personality Disorders

Borderline and Paranoid Personality Disorder (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=162162.0)

Borderline and Schzoid/Schizotypal Personality Disorder

Borderline and Histrionic Personality Disorder (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61196.0)

Borderline and Narcissistic Personality Disorder (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=90388.0)

Borderline and Avoidant Personality Disorder (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=153546.0)

Borderline and Dependent Personality Disorder

Borderline and Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82476.0)

Borderline and Depressive Personality Disorder

Borderline and Passive Aggressive Personality Disorder

Borderline and Sadistic Personality Disorder

Borderline and Self Defeating Personality Disorder

Other

Borderline PD and Alcohol Dependence (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=96965.0)

Borderline PD and Aspergers (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=21363.0)

Borderline PD and Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=147635.0)

Borderline PD and BiPolar Disorder (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=162165)

Borderline PD and Dissociative Identity Disorder (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=71454.0)

Borderline PD and P.T.S.D. (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=42598.0)

Borderline PD and Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=150400.0)

In all seriousness I think that there are psychopathic traits in pwBPD, but that is a different diagnosis.  Although when you are suffering in the pain of that relationship it may "feel" like we are dealing with a psychopath. I know that it felt that way for me.

In some ways I think dealing with a person with BPD is more confusing than dealing with a psychopath. This is because the emotions in the early stages of the relationship were authentic. But it doesn't make sense how callously cold and sadistic they can be later in the devaluing stages.  I think this throws us into black and white thinking trying to make sense of it all.

Psychopaths are not tormented individuals they are the tormentors.

If anything it's like a pwBPD has their own personal psychopath in their mind tormenting them for life.

Unfortunately not sustainable enough to be considered genuine.

What I've noticed is that on sites dealing with sociopaths and psychopaths its all about 'Him' whereas on sites dealing with BPD its all about 'Her' ... .Perhaps popular culture has taught us that males are sociopaths whilst females are, um, oh yes, BPD!

Psychopaths and BPD act in some of the sames ways but don't have the same motivations. Psychopaths do not later regret their actions, and they do not experience shame.

define 'authentic' ... .in the early stages, she was mirroring you, and playing a role she has played in almost the exact same way many times before you... .

I would define authentic as real and true to the person expressing the emotion.

As for mirroring, we all do this in a relationship.  It is not a con, it's how we bond with others.  A pwBPD traits often over experiences their emotions and will overdo the mirroring.  There is no con here either.  It's impulsive with no consideration to the future implications - also not a con - a pwBPD traits typically has diminished executive control.

The problem is that we buy into the over emotion (not knowing that they are over expressed) and when other emotions - negative emotions - are over expressed,  we are floored.

It's a mental illness.  Weakness, vast emotional swings, impulsiveness/living in the moment.  These seemingly innocuous things can tear hell on a relationship as they lay out.

It was obvious - but not so obvious that were will to give up on the potential and see it for what is was.

Interesting, and while I agree, I also believe it doesn't reflect reality, rather just a symptom of the disorder, no different then checking locks 10 times would be for someone with OCD... and actually sets the stage for all that follows. They are looking for their prince charming, they quickly buy into you being him, perfect for them in every way. Of course, this is entirely unsustainable for anyone, and leads to misalignment of reality and expectations that lead to friction.

The honeymoon phase/mirroring exist for everyone, but in my experience the expectation becomes continual adoration and honeymoon phase  actions on my part (not hers), failing to meet that was met with various level of emotional torture. Emotionally healthier people understand this is all a part of the process, settling into a stable pattern where lifelong love develops.

Also, I really appreciate the understanding and empathy you continually advocate towards pwBPD, but I wanted to ask you, both of my therapists that I have talked to have a completely different take, or, atleast a less empathetic one. They don't demonize the ex's but basically tell me what i deserve, what I was hoping for, a healthy adult relationship, is just not possible with these folks

but the person they were at the beginning was not authentic.

it was a fabricated persona that in the end was basically the exact opposite of who they really and truly were

Interesting question.  When my uBPDx and I first broke up I was at a loss.  I couldn't process what just happened but the sudden barrage of red flags popping up left and right had me thinking.  I was trying to piece the situation together and stumbled over lie upon lie upon lie.  I then started looking into sociopaths  After some minor research there I spoke to my T and she mentioned BPD.

I can't even begin to explain to you how clear the last 3 years of my life became.  Questions that left me torn were answered.  Thoughts that left me powerless explained.  It was honestly (for lack of a better comparison) like solving an algebra equation.  I had such an AH HA moment I can't even begin to express the relief I felt.

I didn't have to sit there and wonder what I did wrong or think about what more I could do!  Here I was giving this woman the world on a silver platter and she just threw the cover on it with no warning?  I was a disaster.  Emotionally I am still messy but at least the knowledge has alleviated some torment.  I understand why our relationship failed though it doesn't make it hurt any less.

tim,

Fair question.   :)

I, along with other volunteers, the clinical consultants, and professional members, have invested a significant effort in building a resource for families... .I'm advocating for the family.  As that relates to this "Board", I'm advocating for the ex-partner of the person with BPD.  I am a Leaving board veteran, myself. (my story is here).

Empathy is a really important people skill. Glad you raised it. One of ours goals as an organization is to help raise members emotional intelligence; empathy is a big part of that.  A lot of our struggles relate to difficulty in reading people - not understanding where the other person is coming from.

So what is empathy, exactly?  As defined by the American Psychiatric Association in the DSM 5.0, empathy is about understanding how the another person thinks. More info... . (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=144007.msg1403213#msg1403213)

A lot of people coming off these relationships don't understand what happened or get caught up in myths. And if we don't come to a realistic understanding, many will go away from the relationship a lot of baggage, a lot of vulnerability, and a lot of fear.  

BPD, NPD, OCD, Alcoholism, chronic depression, etc. - thats 28% of the population - not including the children of the same.  Either at home, in the office, on the court - we are all dealing with difficult people - it helps to have skills. Some of us are in the 28%.

If you share copies of what I wrote, I don't think you will get push back from your therapist.


There is no question that if you have a relationship with a mentally ill person or a person with an addiction that it will be chaotic and problematic.

Skip

If the pwBPD were a child who needed to win their mother's "love," and that child became what that difficult mother wanted the child to be to have that love, would it still be inauthentic for the child to become that? Confusing to follow, but I believe accurate.  So, it's perhaps not an attempt to deceive or trick, but pulling out all the stops to be loved.  I think it has more to do with believing that they simply aren't "enough" so they become the perfect person (for you) to love.  

My understanding of a psychopath is they trick (or "play" a person to gain their trust so they can exploit that trust.  I believe pwBPD are genuinely looking for love, but they don't have an understanding of healthy love or the ability to attach due to their chaotic lives, and therefore can't give (don't have the ability to give) healthy love.

Thanks Skip! Always enjoy your perspective as I progress along my healing journey. The knowledge that these relationships are almost always going to be problematic makes letting go that much easier, but I try not to demonize her

I don`t see someone that is just BPD . allowing her son to beat me up. lock me in my room take the light bulbs out and my tv. for three days . she sit there and watch him do it and then allowed him to go and play video game over at my replacements house. I don't see someone that just has BPD allowing her to sell drugs out of my house . she said that she does not remember him hitting me . and she blamed me for everything. I asked her one time if I was to get sick would she help me? she said no.

Well I think that the percentage of diagnosed pwBPD is much higher for women... .

... .but there may be something to what you are saying... .or at least for us to have an awareness about that info.

Or is that just "falling in love"!   *)

YES!  I have had a similar awareness, with the same relief and understanding... .but like you said... .it is still emotionally painful. Thanks for that!

This is really a good way to look at things.  I AM that child.  I DID become what my difficult mother wanted me to be in order to receive her love.  I don't think I had a choice.  And it was never enough.  But it was a matter of survival.  I also see that I did this with my uBPDexh.  I lived up to his 'expectations'.  I turned myself into a pretzel trying to please him.  I hid parts of myself that I knew he wouldn't approve of.  I walked on eggshells as to not upset him.  I became something inauthentic.  I didn't do it to trick him.  I was, again, trying to survive.  Trying to get that love and acceptance I so desperately craved.  I don't doubt he was trying to do the same.  But in an entirely different way.  After the honeymoon phase came to an end he stopped trying to win my approval.  With him it was about control.  He needed to 100% control me at all times.    He manipulated me into submission basically.  I had to anticipate his needs and I better be quick about it.  He blamed everyone for his lot in life.  He was super paranoid and untrusting of friends, family, me and the government.  In between these times he was sweet and emotional and warm.  I saw pain in him.  I saw his suffering.  If he was indeed a psychopath this would have all been an act, planned.  I don't believe that.  I believe he was both people.  The borderline term fits.

That's a really good point infrared and something I have been contemplating lately. It has been painful because I had to confront the reality that I projected onto my ex my own values. Then she gave so much of herself away as to live up to my standards. At the core she was extremely giving of herself to the point of martydom. Where she herself would have settled for crumbs. It really touched my heart someone could be so giving and this is one of the things that made her so attractive to me.

The thing is she could be just as giving to a shallow selfish a-hole!  This is part of what scared her to encounter someone who recognized and appreciated this about her. This goes back to my exs deep trust issues. This was out of her comfort zone yet she wanted so deeply to connect in this way and briefly she did but it triggered the disorder.

Yes. It could be they can't even love or trust themselves very much. Are ashamed of their actions, good and bad. So it's like they're seeking what they feel they don't deserve. Unable to live it once they're there.

This is pretty much it. Mine pretty much told me all that,  worded slightly different.  It's just alien to them,  the notion of it

yes Nazis and serial killers was heavily into crime fiction as well as to what are the traits af a BPD it is really to tell if someone has BPD but hard to explain one of those under my care has said to me I HATE YOU :)ONT GO! in the samr breath I kid you not whren she gets upset but i would bet my life she is not BPD her sister on the other hand i was convinced of long before there were any formal signs of mental illness ( at aprox 15 )

just an ammendum meant it is really easy to tell if someone is BPD also it was easy to tell her sister was BPD ( an yes my ex had BPD ) it does take quite a few years an a couple of oceans of tears to learn though

Yea i can completely relate. I knew my exs sister had major issues before my ex with all the stories id hear and how off she acted when i met her. Also just by the behavior of how her sister would constantly convince her to "leave me" when they were on the phone after a fight wed have. Instead of calming her down shed just increase the drama 10 fold. That and how she drained her husbands savings dry, ran off for over a month sleeping with all manner of guys, partying to get drunk/high constantly with the money and then the chump took her back without her so much as showing any remorse for her actions. But by this time she had "broke" him. The one time i met him we got along really well. And somehow i saw my future self in him if i didnt get out... never again.