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I have a long thread about my wife cheating on me. (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=235769.0) Tomorrow she's flying out of the city where the guy she's cheating with lives, but not back to me.

I'm mostly NC with her--I intended to send her an email exactly a week ago, but I think it never went to her. The last email I am sure I sent was 10 days ago. The last voice conversation was also a week ago. This was just before her cheating progressed from kissing to sex. (This is what she told me she would do.) My last text was 4 days ago, and a combination of unemotional business and saying I felt safer keeping my distance.

She has been reaching out to me regularly by FB chat, txt, and email, mostly sweet nothings, along with some questions about plans around Thanksgiving, which is the soonest we might be physically reunited. Planning it soon makes sense from the point of view of getting affordable plane tickets.

Right now I'm planning to send her an email while she is flying--I've already spent too much energy trying to influence her behavior while she's with this guy, I'm trying to take that motivation away from myself by waiting until she's left. I want to set the tone before she arrives and contacts me though. Draft #1 follows:

---

Wife,

I am keeping a lot of distance from you very intentionally. I am trying to save our marriage, not end it.

I have a lot I need to process and figure out right now. Part of it is your cheating with [guy].

I expect I will want to talk with you about it. I'll let you know when I'm ready for that.

I cannot find it in me to care about small issues like where you or I spend Thanksgiving until I've resolved bigger issues with you. I hope your plans can stay on hold until then.

---

Comments? Suggestions? Thoughts?

Hi Grey Kitty,

I've read your story with some interest for awhile now. I've been at a loss as to what to say. Cheating is so painful and unforgievable to me I don't know that I could handle it. I'm glad that people much wiser than me are helping guide you through this. I just wanted to tell you how much I admire your strength and ability to stay so calm, rational, and also caring and thoughtful toward your wife through all of this.

I live by a motto that kindness is never wrong. That includes showing kindness to ourselves. Your letter is both kind to you, and to her. It also honors truth in a respectful way. Good for you. Hoping for a good outcome for you and your family.

 Thank you. Hearing that you care matters. (I almost put a "just" in front of that sentence; I've been watching myself minimize my feelings in that way, and going back to edit the "just" out. As a dear friend of mine says, words are important.)

For the record... .I have not always managed to stay calm, rational, caring, kind, and thoughtful. I was hurting, desperate, begging, angry, and a piece of work. And expressed more of this to her than was useful in the week she told me she was going to do this.

The one I'm trying to stop is being rational/analytical. I've found that my pattern is to check out instead of feeling. This is NOT serving me well. It is a hard habit to break.

So true about the word "just". It does have a minimizing effect, doesn't it? I started using that word more and more often to minimize any harshness since emails and texts lack tone - my BPDexbf often resorted to written communication when he was too unstable to talk on the phone or in person. Then I found myself using it a lot in work emails. I finally realized not everyone was as hypersensitive, but what a hard habit to break!

Speaking of your hard habit to break, I have the opposite problem. Rather than "checking out" by being rational and analytical, I would too often give in to my feelings (tossing logic out the window). Developing a habit to be more calm, rational, logical has actually helped me control my feelings better. I still feel them, but now I can identify them and act accordingly. Perhaps it's all about balance -- listening to our heart and mind simultaneously?

There is a balance between feeling and thinking.

The balance I try to achieve is one where the feeling tells me what is important. That means sit with my feelings and be with them, whether I'm feeling hurt, angry, joyful, grateful, sad, whatever. Perhaps because I'm going along with something that doesn't fit my values.

Being with feelings is a critical middle ground. Checking out and stuffing doesn't work well for me. Immediately reacting with action to your feelings (what you describe) also lets you avoid sitting with your feelings.

Only after this can we think and respond well.

Looking at the last couple weeks, I did get lost in the feelings and just react. It didn't stop my wife from cheating. Not that I believe I could have done anything which would have.

What I have found amazing in the last couple days is that after sitting with my feelings, I've made choices which were "right" for me in far bigger ways than I understood when I chose.

---

Thank you for that digression! I would like to re-invite the community (and you!) here to comment on my draft email.

I can only speak as a non-BP female, but I would consider swapping the first 2 sentences - stating first your intentions, then asking for time to process - instead of "I'm not talking to you on purpose, but I want to save our marriage" - it would read more like "I want to save our marriage, but I need time to process... "

Then again, I have no idea how a pwBPD would interpret it...

I've said things like "oh look it's raining today", and he heard "you hate being stuck inside with me, don't you?" Wow.

Thanks Jessica. That makes two people who noticed that statement.

I also shared the gist of it to a dear friend who is helping me work though this. Her reaction was that skepticism about including statement about wanting to save the marriage at all. Moving on to my thoughts:

1: I'm not concerned about my wife dysregulating BPD-style in response--She really has stopped doing that sort of BPD behavior. I can't be in her head, but I believe that the emotional stuff at the core of that sort of behavior seems gone too.

2: If I wanted to end the marriage I would be asking for that instead of asking for space. She's smart enough to connect the dots herself.

3: Telling her this would be an empty assurance anyhow--Like saying "I have no reason to lie to you." -- True, perhaps, but not something that will convince somebody of your truthfulness.

4: I'm not wanting to scare my wife or reassure her. I really don't care much about what she's going through.

All I really want to communicate is that I still need space from her.

Draft #2:

---

Wife,

I have a lot I need to process and figure out right now. Part of it is your cheating with [guy]. I'm maintaining distance from you while I work on it.

I'll let you know when I'm ready to talk to you about it.

I need to resolve bigger issues with you before I can care about things like where you or I spend Thanksgiving. I hope your plans can stay on hold until then.

Me

This second draft sounds good, Grey Kitty.

Calmly and straightforwardly speaking for yourself.

The door still open for both of you, for when the time comes.

Draft #2 looks good to me. |iiii

One question: If you say that part of it is her cheating with [guy] will she take that to mean that other cheating behavior is okay? I am thinking about how my husband might read something like this.

"I have a lot I need to process and figure out right now. I'm maintaining distance from you while I work on it.

I'll let you know when I'm ready to talk to you about it.

I need to resolve bigger issues with you, such as your cheating, before I can care about things like where you or I spend Thanksgiving. I hope your plans can stay on hold until then."

Thanks, VOC. I shared the draft with my friend too, and her comment was that the part about cheating could be done so as to speak of my feelings. Especially because nobody can argue with me about what I'm feeling.

I'm going to sit with this one a bit and see how my feelings flow into it... .My starting point is going to be "betrayal". I've got a couple hours before I'm going to send the email.

In my best Marvin the Martian Voice: "There was supposed to be an earth shattering kaboom."

Here's what I sent:


My good supportive friend has been telling me that I'll know when I'm ready to talk to her. I'm pretty sure I'm not yet. So far she's been incredibly helpful, and incredibly right about it, so I'm just going to trust that I will know.

I think that's going to be when I can keep any discussion of the cheating on topic as it needs to be without letting her send me off down a rabbit hole, or otherwise reacting instead of responding.

One thing I have come to terms with is that my wife has had some sort of obsession with an uninterrupted series of men over about a decade (up through today. I haven't heard if the latest one has stopped yet or not! And I'm not ready to ask!) Sometimes her behavior has been cheating. Other times not. But the obsession seems pretty constant. The tough part is that this is NOT my problem, it is hers. If it moves on to become cheating, it becomes my problem.

And I also blocked the guy on facebook. But not in time. Saw that my wife had posted a pic, and tagged him and suggested it as a new profile pic for him, along with some sort of inspirational quote that #$@#$%  pissed me off.

I wanted to wait until she left so that I wasn't creating drama while this was going on... .but I wanted to protect myself from any more experiences with this... .errr... .uhm... .not sure what noun to use for the guy she was cheating with. (None that I considered were flattering!)

Too late. I was hoping to protect myself from that. Sigh.

Kitty, I really like the message you sent. I don't think you'll regret that message at all.

Can I ask, though, why you're so resentful of this guy? He has no duties or obligations toward you or your marriage. Your wife does. I admit this may make me an outlier given the way extramarital affairs are often discussed, but it seems to me antagonism toward the person who was violating no promises to anyone involved usually is diverted anger that belongs with the "fulcrum" partner in the marriage and affair.

Anyway, wishing you strength and wisdom. Glad you have the good friend in your corner -- this is a good time to have someone to double check reactions with.

P&C, Thanks.

As for diverted anger to the guy from my wife, yes that is a concern. It is what I was trying to protect myself from when I blocked him. (Too late, I got a blast of it!)

I'm only a little resentful of this guy--I hardly knew him, he hardly knew me. His betrayal of me is real, but small. If I knew he had done something like this with the wife of one of my friends, I'd be less angry with him... .but reach the same conclusion: I want nothing more to do with him.

Seeing evidence of my wife spending time with him, lavishing affection on him, etc., etc., etc. will just PISSES ME OFF. I don't want to be ambushed by that.

Why am I done with him?

1: Actions: I told him that I did not consent his having sex with my wife. He acknowledged that he heard it, and gave me some vague new-agey bullsh$t about how he couldn't agree to that because of some vague ethical-sounding reasons about helping my wife.

This violates two big values of mine: First consent in romantic relationships. Second, truthfulness

2: Suspicions/impressions: My friend who is supporting me on this commented that her initial impression of him was that what she saw of him made her not want to know any more of him. I could go into more detail... .but the short version is that he appears to be the "sensitive new-age guy" pickup artist type.

Eewwww. That makes me squirm just reading that description. Sounds like you read him as an opportunist.

That stuff on FB must have been very unpleasant to see.  For what it's worth, I've found exposure to that sort of thing helpful to a point--helpful in keeping me anchored in reality, when I wanted to idealize my special bond with my ex wBPD. But once you accept whatever the lesson is, then more such material doesn't really add anything.

Hugs and more hugs.

Yup, I think opportunist applies. I agree--he is squirm-worthy. In addition, he seems to pursue/take advantage of mentally unhealthy women.

His other r/s involves a woman about half his age (30's)... .who has dis-associative disorder, had one of those amazingly messed up childhood/teen histories, and is in a (apparently messy/dysfunctional) poly r/s with a bunch of people, some of which have demanded she stop seeing this guy, which she agreed to do, but he still thinks of her has his primary r/s.

When he met my wife, she was coming out of grief for losing her lover a year ago... .which had her depressed (old problem for her) and facing anxiety attacks unlike anything she'd had before. She also has a manic tendency to pick a guy besides me and obsess on him... .of course that looks different when it is aimed at you.

As I said. I have no use for him in my life. The less I think about his douche-baggery, the better. I have enough to process regarding my wife before I'm ready to talk to her about moving our lives forward together or apart.

 I'm not normally this vitriolic against people. I guess I really do need to work through some of this anger.

Even when I do get past the anger, I still don't see myself having any use for him.

GK,

I haven't been on the boards much, so I read the evolution of your letter and was getting ready to jump in and say, "You're missing what your feeling!", but you got it!  |iiii

I am in agreement with patientandclear, though. No matter how manipulative or unethical the dude may be, you need to get clear on how and why you ended up here. Feel your anger, but understand it with clarity. That will give you the strength to address the how and why, because clearly, right now something is going strongly against the core of who you are and what you believe.

And I am terribly sorry that this happened to you. You are a strong, calm person on the outside, but I think you have to sail through the storms on the inside to know how to maintain self love and self kindness. From there, you can extend loving kindness to your spouse, to speak what needs to be spoken and listen to her story with clarity. I wish it were easier. Many hugs.

Thanks!   All the support here really means a lot to me.


Yes, I was leaving the feelings out of it.

It wasn't that I didn't have the feelings.

I had already shared some of those feelings with my wife, a week ago, with more intensity and less control than I really wanted looking back.

Right now, I don't feel very safe sharing feelings like that with my wife. She hasn't been respectful of my feelings like these.

I could say a lot more about them, and do to people who support me.

I think I'll be able to speak clearly on them when I'm ready to talk to my wife.

Same in my relationship.

Seen from a very broad context, this is about blowing-up the intimacy that is generated in a two -person system by introducing a third, over and over again.

I have considered in the past, briefly, maybe adopting a more ‘open relationship’ lifestyle so that all deception is eliminated and me and my partner could have a more authentic relationship w/n a more alternative life-style setting.  I’ve even chatted briefly with you about such ideas in the past on this forum.

In my heart of hearts, I knew it wasn’t the answer.  I knew the issue wasn’t about sex at all, but about blowing-up the intimacy that is created when we are close.  And his usual way of doing that is to introduce a third, whatever that might be…often it’s another women.  But it can also be an obsession with a project, etc.

I also knew in my heart that whatever rules we put in place to keep us safe w/n the confines of an open relationship…would still get blown-up b/c it has to, to serve the purpose of disrupting intimacy.  So, I knew, even if I agreed to an open r/s and there were certain persons he could ‘be with’…he would no doubt, eventually choose to be with an off-limits person.  My becoming more “open” or embracing an alternative lifestyle doesn’t fix that he needs to blow-up intimacy, in whatever form it takes.  

I’m sorry to hear that something like this may be happening in your case. Because it is felt as a betrayal, and it is very painful.

You have been more than reasonable.  |iiii

Thanks for your thoughts! I am amazed by your insight.


I never thought of my wife's actions in this context--that they are consistently very effective at blowing up intimacy with me. It is inescapably true.

I don't understand how or why. I'm not sure deep in my heart that this is what is happening--It may still be something else that my wife needs which drives this, and the blowing up of our marriage is secondary rather than primary.

Then again, I may be gobsmacked with the realization/certainty of this in the middle of the night.

Whatever... .I don't need to understand what or why--that is her journey, not mine.

Mine is to find a path where I can flourish in my life, knowing that this sort of sabotage/rejection can and likely will come from my wife.

I'm thinking about my next step. I'm not feeling ready for a conversation with my wife yet.

I got what I asked for--no contact from her since my last email. I wasn't feeling good about the contact I had been getting.

I'm feeling uncomfortable about the lack of contact, wondering what she is thinking and doing. I know that the uncomfortable feeling is not a good enough reason to contact her in itself.

There is one thing that's bugging me. She offered to cut contact with this guy upon flying away... .until I was OK with it back before she had sex with him. She even promised not to bug me constantly about letting her get back with him.

I told her that I didn't believe her offer at the time. And I'm really not sure if she can cut contact with him... .or more accurately, drop her obsession with him.

However... .If she can't, any hope I've got for her being trustworthy going forward is blown. So this does matter.

What I *REALLY* want to avoid is making this a negotiation with her over this guy. The best way to win a debate is to frame the question your way, and I don't want to let her do this.

Draft of email #2 follows:

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Wife,

You offered to cut all contact with [guy] as soon as you got on the plane yesterday.

I hope you have already done this.

I need this in order to start trusting you again.

Me

---

I've not put much of my feelings in there. I'm struggling with this.

I also feel like I'm playing some emotional poker game with her, and I hate that aspect.

I'm not sure how I can do this without being vulnerable. And I'm not sure I'm ready to let myself be vulnerable to her, instead of playing games. 

First, don't bring this up until you are ready to hear the answer. I know that when I would ask my husband about certain things he would sometimes tell me what he thought I wanted to hear rather than the truth. Can you trust that the answer that your wife gives you will be the truth?


If you doubt that she can do it, why ask her about it? You are setting both of you up for a potentially push/pull situation.


Only you can say whether or not this matters. I got to a point where I had to decide whether or not I could live with the uncertainties. That is a decision that only you can make.


No, the best way to win a debate is to not participate at all. If you know that what you say is going to start a debate, then don't do it because it will just start a cycle that you may not like.


I wouldn't recommend sending this unless you can be certain that her answer is truthful. If you cannot be sure of that, then you are just torturing yourself. Are you being honest with yourself and her when you say that you need her to cut contact in order to start trusting her again? Will that really be enough?

VOC, thanks for your input. I guess there are some things in my email that aren't quite clear:

1.I do not believe that cutting contact with him will be sufficient for me to trust her.

It is a first step. It is necessary, but not sufficient by itself.

2. This isn't a request or a question. I won't debate it with her.

You are correct--I don't really want to know yet.

It is more a matter of sharing my expectation, and clarifying that it still matters to me.

I'm going to chew on this some more before I do another draft. I invite your further thoughts (or anybody else's).

Hmm, perhaps starting with you would like to build back up to trusting her and work on your marriage?  Then list out the things that you will need for that.  Seems silly but if I put that my intention is to work on our marriage because I loved my husband, he was more receptive to hearing what I needed.   

As far as the intimacy approach.  Yes, at heart this is about fear of intimacy for my dBPDh.  My dBPDh has a huge fear of intimacy and will sabotage our relationship when we get too close.  This has happened in many ways, not just cheating.  As he gets more in touch with the fear and faces it head on, he lessens the push/pull. 

Again, I want to tell you how sorry I am that you are going through this.  Having our spouse betray us in this way is just gut wrenching. 

And I noticed that you didn't really put any emphasis on how YOU are feeling about all this. It seems a bit focused on her. Perhaps something along the lines of: I am feeling really insecure about our relationship. I would feel much better knowing where things stand between you and [guy]. I don't think I will be able to move forward in our relationship without knowing that you have cut contact with [guy].

Just throwing out some ideas for you to ponder.  :) I would definitely recommend focusing more on you and how you feel and what you need. It is a whole lot more difficult for them to argue about your feelings.

Grey Kitty,

When you first did boundary work in your RS, you found things that you really could not compromise without losing your self, without the reward of being in relationship outweighing the cost. Can you share those basic values?

And can you look again within yourself and find the basic values that you need to protect to keep your self? And does the reward of the RS outweigh not protecting those values? Does this thought process help?

In my mind, I have made infidelity the Rubicon, but truthfully if I were faced with it, I don't know what I would do. Certain I'd be soul searching for answers

On the lighter side, pwBPD give us infinite opportunities to figure out our own sh!t. 

I think your very recent message to your wife was a masterpiece of maturity and gravity. The present silence is an important product of that message, isn't it? Time for fundamental, essential reflection on the part of both parties?

For my money, you will do well to preserve this moment--now full of significance--by not sending a quick stream of follow-up communications.

My initial boundaries were against verbal/emotional abuse, and the associated head-games behaviors like circular arguments, projection, and gaslighting. They were simple and (relatively) easy boundaries to enforce--immediate disengagement was the only action required of me. The silent treatment was tougher. I could leave, and that often did help... .but didn't fix it.

Values? kindness and respect of others, I guess.

Infidelity* is the one I'm bumping up against now--and it may well be the one I end our marriage over. I am willing to have a non-monogamous relationship--I spent a year where both I and my wife had other lovers. There was lots of learning, lots of drama, and plenty of mistakes. Despite this, it really did seem to work for me. My personal definition of infidelity is sexual and/or romantic involvement without consent by all parties.

---

I'm still thinking about what I want or need to say. Thanks for these observations:



I took a walk and did some thinking. One thing which came to me was the issue of being vulnerable to my wife. I *AM* vulnerable to her. Pretending I'm not isn't going to help me.

I still hate the feeling an emotional poker game.

There is an image I've got... .a graphic of a crumpled and flattened piece of paper with these words:

Trust

is like paper

Once it's crumpled,

It can never be

perfect again.

I could include the image. I don't think I will though.

---

Wife,

I am struggling to figure out if I can trust you again. I am feeling violated and betrayed by you more than I ever felt before.

You offered to cut all contact with [guy] as soon as you got on the plane Sunday.

This would be a good first step toward rebuilding trust.

Me

I've already got two thoughts about my letter.

1. I still don't really like my last sentence.

2. I think I know my reason--I'm not sure what response I want out of my wife. (Besides going NC with the guy! ... .and pulling her head out of her butt permanently  lol )

I'm not sure if I want to hear yet whether she did (or did not) cut contact with him.

I'm not really wanting to open dialog yet.

I'm just not sure quite what I want.

I *know* I want nothing to do with "negotiating" with her over cutting contact with this guy.

I agree. I would definitely leave that last sentence off.

If you are not really wanting to open dialogue yet, what is the point of the second email? If you are not ready to know the status of the other guy, then don't ask yet. Maybe you need to give it a few more days to sink in so that you don't open up dialogue before you are ready. If I had received the second email, my first assumption would be that you were trying to open up some kind of dialogue.

Draft #2. I'm probably going to send it this way, but I'm going to let it sit for a while longer. As always, I invite comments.

I'm not interesting in negotiating anything about this with her. I'm also not going to accept any further contact.

I think all I want to do is put her on notice. It is not like it is anything really new from me... .or should be at all unexpected from our history.

If I establish this now, it may avoid any need to discuss it. When we start talking, I expect to tell her that I don't care to hear anything about him either. Probably ever. And I'll tell her when I do.

I'm finding my inner hardass.  :)

---

Subject: Trust

Wife,

I am struggling to figure out if I can trust you again. I am feeling violated and betrayed by you more than I ever felt before.

You offered to cut all contact with [guy] as soon as you got on the plane Sunday. This would be an essential first step toward rebuilding trust.

Me

If yours is anything like mine, she is liable to want to divulge way too many details about this other person. Definitely be sure to set that as a boundary. NO talking about how much fun this other person is. Period! I am saying this as much for myself as for you.  :) That was one boundary that I didn't even think to set in our attempt at non-monogamy.

I am still not sure about how you have phrased the stuff about cutting contact with that guy. Would a direct question be well received by her? Would it be possible to ask her "Have you cut contact with [guy]?" The reason that I am asking is because there have been times when I have said something like what you propose and had my husband give me the answer that he thought I wanted to hear rather than the truth. A direct question without any of the other stuff might be more helpful. It almost sounds as though you are trying to get her to give you the answer that you want to hear (maybe a bit of projection on my part due to my own experiences).

VOC, I'm not worried about the excessive icky information overload. During our poly r/s period, we came with a "Ask, don't tell" rule. If I want to know about what she did with her lover, I will ask for information. She will not volunteer things that I don't ask for. That way I could decided if I preferred knowing or not knowing, and get what I asked for. I gave her the same deal. That was one thing that worked pretty well for us. (Neither of us wanted to either hear or share a lot of detail. Unlike you and your H, we had similar levels of interest this way.)

As for asking whether she cut contact, or asking her not to talk about him... .I am sure that will come up when we start TALKING.

I don't think I'm ready yet.

Grey Kitty

I'm in full agreement with KateCat.  I'd let this sit for a few since you're not ready to talk and you've already expressed that you will when you're ready.  Any other email communication seems almost redundant at this point, until you're ready to "talk".  Silence speaks loudly, mostly to ourselves when facing something of this magnitude.  Feel the silence.  Perhaps it will speak to her, too.

I’m just kind of musing about all of this, having been in such a similar situation for 7 years.

Going in a bit of a different direction here, but, this is what comes up for me more and more in the past year or so.

When you live with a partner who does this repeatedly, over time, and we stay anyway…we are getting a HUGE break from intimacy, too. And that’s a fact.  And THAT must be working for us somehow, or we’d not continue this.  If we wanted stable intimacy, we would require it or find it.  B/C our partners are the ones who are dramatically acting out, we never really have to look at our own fear of intimacy, or not much, because they are always stealing the show with their antics.  We are acting out our own fear of intimacy, too, but we do it behind the scenes by CHOOSING to be with a partner long term who we can count on to do the dirty explosive work, they are active, we are passive.  I feel like I look like the one who wants intimacy…but I’m in a r/s with a person who can’t sustain intimacy, so I’m not really DOING intimacy. In long term relationships like this, IMHO, both people have issues with intimacy.  Both are about at the same place, developmentally/emotionally as it pertains to intimacy.  Here we are.  We choose this. You chose it. I chose it.  This is where we are.

We are afraid of intimacy, too, my friend.

I am more interested these days in my own capacity to sustain intimacy, or not, than I am his.  I think I get his stuff pretty well.  

Am I growing my capacity for intimacy?

Are you?  :)oes your relationship really require you to step up to the plate in terms of your capacity to stay IN intimacy with another person?

One thing I know, is that i have my own fears of intimacy, and I am concerned that if I don’t eventually move on from my intimacy challenged partner, that I may stay stuck and not develop further in this area, either.  I have no one challenging my issues with intimacy while staying in a relationship like this, b/c my partner is sure to blow it up,  which  means each time he does that,  I’m off the intimacy hook, too.  And, it takes forever to mend these blow ups…so we just stay stuck in sort of a perpetual ground hog day kind of relationship.  Here we go again.  Back to the drawing board. It’s like repeating grade school over and over again…I want to move on to higher education.  Is that possible?

We either have to developmentally move to the next level as a couple, or I have to say good bye to this b/c I want an opportunity in my life to be in a relationship where my partner actually behaves in a manner that challenges me and requires that I stay IN RELATIONSHIP and step up to the intimacy plate, too.  

When relationships get blown up like this over and over again…after a while, developmentally, I feel like I’m just chasing my own tail and no one is really growing. He isn’t, and neither am I.  Not in terms of of capacity for intimacy.  Making-up and repairing over and over again, trying to gain trust again and again…that’s not growth, often it’s just major repair work.  All relationships require repair work, but when it is over the same crap repeatedly and the repair has to be so extensive…like, how can I even ever trust you again….that takes a HUGE amount of time and resources…just to get the relationship maybe on it’s feet again.  How does one grow in that environment, if all resources are utilized doing damage control over and over again?  Some strengths will grow from that, I know, for example,  I have learned so much about my own self-care, but that’s not intimacy with another person.

Do you ever just get totally bored with the whole thing?

I do. I feel like I want so bad to move to the next level.

Well, that is definitely true for me.  When I married my dBPDh, I was still hurting from a previous relationship.  I knew that we didn't have an intimate relationship and I was ok with that when we married.  A couple of years in, I no longer was ok with that.  So I spent years trying to change my dBPDh, so that he could be intimate.  It is so hard to be in a relationship without any intimacy for so many years.  However, this keeps me from triggering my intimacy issues which take a long time in an intimate relationship, to show up.  Then I tend to be the one that bolts. 

Now, it took 11 years into our marriage for my dBPDh to become sexually compulsive with other people.  It looks like the healing from his sexual addiction, working on a core issue of fear of intimacy, might just be the healing that we need.  It is too soon for me to know for sure but there is a definite focus on building real intimacy.  When I am honest with myself, I have stayed away from an intimate relationship because I feel devastated when they end.  I have had 2 truly intimate relationships in my life and it took me several years to get over each one.  My therapists are aware of this, don't think my dBPDh is.

Anyway, don't mean to threadjack with this subject but it really speaks to me.  Thanks for the post.

MissyM, I so hope you both can work together to build real intimacy together,  that would be just so cool. It sounds like you are in couples counseling maybe?

GreyKitty, I can’t remember, have you and your wife done counseling together?  Would you consider it to help with this current crises?  Would she?

MaybeSo,

Your words really touched me. Yes, I chose the relationship with my wife because it was safe. After our intimacy had dried up, I married her because it was safe. It allowed me not to deal with my own desire and issues around intimacy and staying in relation. I realized early on in marriage counseling, before I even knew about her BPD, that I was using our relationship with all the dysfunction to maintain my position as the strong one, as the together one, and to keep my own issues at a distance.

I just don't know how to rebuild intimacy with my wife, even as things have improved. We are talking. That's good, but how does one trust and be vulnerable to a person who has continually been abusive? I know that the healing has to happen within me, and I keep hoping that I will understand whether to move on or to try to repair with honesty to what I really feel and what my needs really are. I think this is getting close to the basement of the feelings inside me.

Thank you all for your insights and discussion. And thanks, GK, for being willing to be open and honest as you go through this. I loved your poem, by the way - I think that is what I would send to your wife. It expresses the pain that you are feeling much more eloquently than oh so many words.

Here's my update: I sent the email, for better or for worse. It wasn't a question, and has yet to get an answer. I did get an email from my wife later tonight.


I am very happy with the way she did this. I'm NOT ready to read the file. I may call her before I read it, and tell her that I am ready to read what she is thinking and feeling... .except things that involve him. And ask her I will find any of that in the file. No hurry--I'm not even feeling ready to read it yet.

Tonoght I talked to another mutual friend, given her the two-hour version of the story... .and she also really likes my wife but cannot quite get behind her on this. My wife had shared some of this with her already, so she wasn't surprised to hear that I was upset about my wife cheating.

I'm getting a lot of support that feels very good. From people who want to support both me and my wife, but don't like what  my wife has done. (And also didn't have a good impression of the guy) This is all wonderful and validating.

I do occasionally need to spew a bit of venom about what my wife and this guy have done. But I don't want the kind of support from people who would hate her. I only wish good for my wife. I only wish distance for the guy.

Maybeso, you (and others) speak of choosing a partner who is guaranteed to blow up intimacy at regular intervals to keep you safe from intimacy. I don't see that as my path to where I am.

I was shy, socially awkward, and kinda numbed/checked out. I didn't even flirt, date, or anything through high school. I was starting to come out of my shell so to speak during college. Then, out of the blue, a woman approached me. I didn't choose her, I accepted that she chose me instead. It took a while before I felt ready, but eventually we got married and still are. (The behaviors that brought me here took quite a few years to manifest and build to difficult levels)

I did get in a polyamorous r/s, but guess what. The woman approached me too, and chose me... .I hadn't really realized I had this option until it happened... .so I still didn't get to dating... .and honestly, I did choose this r/s, but others were leading the choice, not me.

And my issue is that I check out and don't think about what I want... .I go along with somebody else's choice of what they want. I don't make my own choice, and have my own set of cop-outs around that. (Somebody else being my wife!)

Once I start making my own choices, I may just choose intimacy and be done with it. Or I'll find that I'm still choosing a partner who blows it up and need to look at that net.

I'm pretty sure that the big self-directed choices are what I need to find, and what this wake-up call I'm having is telling me to work on.

I would agree.  There are developmental steps needed here.  These relationships, really any healthy adult relationship, REQUIREs differentiation, which is developmental,  and  it’s what most of us need developmentally. At least I think so.

By the way, when referring to choosing our partners and choosing where we are…even if the dynamic was that we are the passive partner or we were literally ‘chosen’ from the dating pool…there is STILL choice involved, you know?  I don’t think any of us ‘consciously’ were aware in present time that we picked out the one person we assured would blow-up intimacy thereby taking us off the hook…this kind of arrangement doesn’t usually get consciously chosen, but evolves and only with insight and  some self reflection we may become more aware of some of our own deep needs that get met by maintaining a dysfunctional r/s.  In terms of needed growth, probably we did make the right choice, conscious or not.  In couples therapy, it’s often said, these two are together for good reason. They are two sides of the same developmental coin.  Regardless of passivity, each day, we choose. Choice is more fluid and more complex than just who took the lead during the dating process. Passive folks often wield quite a bit of power and influence.

Wish you all the best with your developing situation with wife.    |iiii

 You keep throwing out little bits of gold for me! That one sunk in on me--If I'm at a point where I need to work on my passivity and start making active choices... .I'm thinking that my wife's side of the same coin is her willful impulsive and unwise choices.

Speaking of couples T, we have done it before, several times. We haven't done so for a year or two, and with our geographic instability, the only "good" one we've used before is a city we might visit... .but neither of us really wants to live there longer-term. Assuming we start talking and end up living together again, I will suggest couples T, and start looking for one.


Thanks--you are correct--I am totally passing the buck when I say that my relationship choices were passive and reactive instead of active.

I did accept the choice to go into both relationships. In addition, I actively chose to end my second relationship, because I found it impossible to communicate/negotiate with her successfully. On the  surface, the issues were about the choices to spend time together... .but ultimately, it was about negotiating intimacy... .I decided that she wasn't capable of doing it successfully. At least with me. (She doesn't do well with others either, 'tho!)

I've got all I can handle to get myself making active choices that fit my values. (Especially if I include working to repair the emotional trainwreck my marriage became last month!)

When I feel solid in my choices, I hope to remember to check in and see what sort of intimacy I'm choosing.

 

Do you want another partner... .in addition to your wife?

Are you open to that possibility?  I see that as different from wanting... .

I also think the way your wife reached out to you is good... .I think it shows that she is being respectful. 

Hang in there... .

I am actively looking to avoid this right now:

1. With all the conflict with my wife, it would be very difficult not to start triangulating in a new intimate relationship. I've seen how badly that can play out already!

2. Inviting somebody into my life with this conflict wouldn't be respectful of them.

3. My biggest issue with my wife is her starting a relationship without my consent, and starting relationships with consent is one of my values. So were I to start something, my values tell me to ask for my wife's consent. I'm afraid that in my wife's mind, the waters are already muddy. I'm not doing that.


I see the difference as well, and I am open to possibilities.

I trust that I will resolve the conflict with my wife. I expect real progress in a matter of weeks or months. Possibilities will open up to me as we get resolution. If I'm single, I expect to date. If we reconcile, I intend to date (with consent from my wife).

I see something specific in your question: ":)o I want another partner?" I think of a partner as a long-term relationship, with similar significance to a marriage.

I want to do some exploration of dating and sex. (also relationships). My current interest is the exploration, not the "result" of finding a partner. For me, being honest about my intentions is important. Despite going in with these intentions, I know that the feelings of all involved can and will change. I expect to learn things. (Read "learn" as: Most likely hurt people and get hurt myself in the process of learning.)

And back to my starting point. Pursuing this today would not be safe, kind, or wise.

 

Good reply.

You seem to have things organized in your head properly... .and are thinking about the feelings of others.

I figured as much... .and you may have clarified this somewhere else... .just wanted to give you opportunity to work through this... .

Well... .I asked for space. I'm mostly getting it. About once a day I get some sort of little "friendly lovey" note in email, text, or facebook.

And every time I got one I just felt kinda pissy at her over it.

In the last couple days I realized what is bugging me. INVALIDATION. Big time. She's ignoring and glossing over things as if I'm not feeling hurt and betrayed. As if I'm not seriously considering ending my marriage. As if I'll just accept her "little dalliance" and go back to things as they were before.

Anyhow... .I'm about to send one more email:

---

Re: (last email from her)

Wife,

I've been hurting. Terribly.

I feel betrayed.

I get notes from you with "I love you"s, dearest, etc. They are full of sweetness and light.

I don't see any hint of awareness about my pain or feelings in them.

And I don't feel happy and loved, like I probably would have a month ago.

I feel like you don't care about me and my feelings. I'm afraid you don't even notice them.

I'm afraid of finding more of this in the file you sent. I haven't opened it yet.

Will you give me some validation instead?

Me

---

I'm still not feeling loving or supportive or friendly, and still not interested in presenting that way.

I've got just one thing I'm twisting myself inside out over, and that is the last sentence. Another version I thought of for that sentence was:

"I want validation. I want to know that you care about my feelings. I'm feeling nothing from the sweet nothings."

Any thoughts?

Hmmm, asking for validation seems kind of vague. What can your wife do or say that would make you feel validated? Maybe you can ask for that directly instead of asking for validation. Maybe something along the lines of, "I need you to acknowledge that you are aware of my pain."

Now I'm laughing at myself and my situation.

I feel my reactions to what my wife sends me. I try to wait until I've finished feeling, and work on some sort of response (Responding, not Reacting!).

I'm going through a LOT of processing though. It takes me a while.

And before I am ready to respond... .I've got something new to react to.

Last night I got an email that wasn't packed chock full of lovey-dovey invalidation... .what I was writing about in my latest still-unsent email... .

It didn't hit the level of validation that I was craving. Not even close. But all kinds of feelings.

First relief.

Next: What the heck am I doing. She tossed me one little crumb, and I'm ready to forgive, forget, and go back into the unsatisfying life I've had with her.

Going to sleep, rehearsing conversations in my head where I gave her a piece of my mind... .

... .OK... .time to sit with this one a bit longer before I'm ready to respond!

... .and I'm still not ready to read her file of thoughts.

I'm thinking a little about what I want with/from my wife again.

Only a little--I'm putting my energy into things that don't involve her, and feeling good about those choices for now.

Anyhow... .as far as communications with her... .

• I don't want to hear about the guy she cheated with.



• I don't want to hear what she did with him.



• I don't want to hear why she needed to cheat.



• I don't want to hear about any insights into herself that she got with him*

* Hearing what she learned about herself isn't a problem... .for me to be willing to listen, the (spoken) context cannot involve this incident.

Years from now, I might change my mind and be more open about these things, but I don't really see myself there.

I'm not sure whether I'm in an empathy shortage and am unable to care about her feelings... .or if I'm afraid that when she starts talking about them, I'll get a dose of justification for her actions, and feel hurt and pissed all over again. Maybe both.

I may share this with her. If I do, I want to be careful--Presenting them as "rules" won't help. They really aren't rules. The are enforceable boundaries. If she goes to that sort of crap in a conversation, I'm going to end the conversation to protect myself. I've coached lots of people here on boundary enforcement: You do it for your own protection. Notification in advance is optional.

Whew! Huge sigh of relief. Knowing that I need to protect myself from these things, at least for now. Knowing that I CAN protect myself from them.

I feel better about it now. I'm still considering whether to share this part with her explicitly or not. If I do, I'm sure it will be my feelings, not an announcement of my boundaries.

When I do talk to my wife, I am feeling a strong need to be heard by her.

• I want her to hear that consent is an important value to me.



• I want her to hear about how consent needs to be clear, informed, and affirmative (Yes means yes, instead of no means no... .)



• I want her to hear that kissing on the lips is something that requires advance consent in my world and my marriage.



• I want to tell her that I'm not going to stay in a marriage where my consent is violated.

I strongly identify with the need to be heard.  Problem is, that is so rare with BPDs.  My dBPDh will hear me and seem to understand and then next time the conversation comes up, he has forgotten all of that.  Really, the only thing you have control over is the  way you phrased the last sentence, which is what you want to tell her.  You have no control over whether she will truly hear you or not.  Thankfully, you have everyone here to hear you and some people IRL!

Yeah, that's kinda what I'm afraid of too. Or in her case, actions instead of conversations.


I know that. I guess my question (more for myself!) is this:

How do I decide whether I believe her or not when(if?) she says she will honor my consent in the future?

How much am I willing to be vulnerable to this kind of pain again? I do know that staying with her is risking it, whatever she says she will do.

Those are tough questions to answer. I have gotten a bit cynical and I don't really believe what my spouse says. I look at his actions. That means that I need to find a way to live in those fuzzy gray areas where I listen to what he says with a bit of skepticism and then let his actions tell me whether or not he truly heard and understood what I said. I wonder if you could set it as a boundary and let the cards fall where they may. I know that my husband usually intends to honor my wishes but usually falls short. The question for me is then, "How do I set a boundary that I can actually enforce?" What are you prepared to do if she doesn't honor your consent in the future?

Very well put.  I am only cautiously optimistic with my husband, if I become too overconfident in his words then I would be foolish.


It seems just blindly taking the risk wouldn't be wise.  Is she going to do anything to get to the bottom of why she chooses other relationships and how to stop herself?  Just the words are going to mean nothing, as this has been a long pattern with her.


I don't fool myself, there is a huge risk staying with my dBPDh.  Only I can asses if there are enough safety measures in place for me to take the risk.  Same goes for you.

GK, this is kind of a tough question -- hope you don't mind.

You already, just very recently, told her that you feel this way.  That for you, other relationships while in the marriage require affirmative consent.

Is it fair to say she pretty flagrantly went and did exactly what you said you needed her not to do?

If you now give her effectively a second warning, are you actually communicating that you may NOT enforce your boundary?  Because she just violated it, after you explained it to her ... .and you are now going to talk with her about what will happen if she does it again in the future.  (I'm totally applying advice learned from one Grey Kitty here.)

P&C, I don't mind tough questions. I've been known to ask a few as you so rightly point out.

Yes, it is pretty clear that she flagrantly stepped over one of my boundaries.

I'm not unconcerned about giving her "just one more chance" (to blow it again and then I'll give her another chance again)... .

And curiously... .I'm much more concerned today about making important things in my life that are independent of her than I am about how we resolve this conflict... .but still speculating on how it will go... .

She could:

A) Hear my concerns, and promise to fly straight from here on, acknowledge that she needs to work on things, possibly needs help doing it, and that she's committed to doing it.

B) Admit that she messed up, and can't stop herself from doing it again.

C) Continue giving me reasons whey she needed to do this... .

D) Try to nag and harass me for consent, wanting to continue things with the guy.

C & D are the easiest for me... .I've got zero patience for them, and will protect myself from them. Conversation over. D is probably marriage over--I went through two years of it once. Never again.

A & B will be harder for me.

But if I wasn't willing to give her one more chance... .I'd be posting on the "Leaving" board instead of here. I am feeling different ... .feeling some freedom in knowing I don't NEED this marriage to survive and thrive.

What I'm not going to do is decide what my "normal" response to her cheating is... .That isn't working for me.

 

Let me try to put some nuance to this... .

Let me try to point out what we don't want to be like.  We don't want to do black and white thinking (who normally does that?)

So... .it's pretty obvious she knew she was violating... .it's obvious GK needs to enforce the boundary... .the nuance comes in with "how" to enforce it.

She gets no cut on that... .that's up to GK.

In fact... .I don't think that she needs to be told "how" the boundary will be enforced... .nor should she be asked.

That would probably just start an argument... .GK just needs to do... .

Time for a Star Wars moment here... .someone... .use the appropriate quote!   :)

Anyway... .black and white thinking (to me) would be marriage on... .or marriage off.

Nuanced (healthy) thinking to me would be... .what is GK going to change about the r/s to enforce the boundary.

That change doesn't have to be permanent... .just until GK decides that it is appropriate.

Back to boundary 101... .who is the boundary for... .? who decides the boundary?  who decides how long?

Note... .I was very conscious here to not suggest what boundary enforcement looks like.  Ok... I'll do some doublespeak... and say that I don't think it looks like end of marriage... .but I do think it should be a big deal.  Up to GK to figure out what a "big deal" is.

Hang in there GK... .I think you are working through this well... .

Do you think that splitting this into two threads is helpful? 

Thread one:  What does boundary enforcement look like in my case?

Thread two:  How did I contribute to getting myself in this fix... .and what can I do to avoid a similar situation in the future.

Maybe a bonus thread:  What can I do... .when my wife and I are back together... .to move the r/s forward in a positive direction.

FF, thanks for your thoughts. I've already got another thread about my own journey (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=236486.0), not involving my wife. It gets into questions of what I've done to let myself get here and what is on my side. Up 'till now it has focused on deep issues instead of specific actions. I'm still working that one

I'll allow myself to ramble all around my fears, hopes, other feelings, thoughts, and plans regarding my wife in this thread... .at least 'till the mods close it for excessive length :)

As for boundary enforcement... .when it comes to cheating, the boundary I can enforce is not being in a r/s with somebody who cheats on me. It isn't the only thing I can do... .just the only boundary enforcement action I can come up with. I'm not enforcing that one yet.

If I were to choose some other action as boundary enforcement for that issue (cheating), like going NC for a period of time, for example, it wouldn't be boundary enforcement. It would an attempt to punish or control my wife.

My choice not to to speak to my wife for the last two weeks hasn't been that. It has just been what I needed and wanted. If it were about her, it would be controlling/punishment. It isn't. It is about me and what I'm feeling, and what I need. (She may feel differently. That doesn't matter to me. I'm not even interested in those feelings.)

Other boundaries like not listening to her talk about the affair... .those I can and will enforce. It took me a while to connect to my feelings and realize I was afraid and I need to protect myself from that... .and once I did that, realizing I could protect myself and how wasn't hard for me.

Here's what I'm feeling this morning:

When my wife started cheating, I stopped contacting her. She didn’t chase after me, she just sent little lovey touches (which were invalidating and pissed me off a bit)

Once she left the city that changed. I’m hearing more from her, and much of it is things she wants to tell me; she’s sounded worried that she’s not hearing from me, wanted to go ahead and make plans for doing things with me soon, she’s missing me, she wants to talk to me. (Along with more lovey and invalidating things)

So a couple things are striking me. One is what my wife is up to. She barely noticed I was gone at first….of course….she was happily boinking this guy the whole time! She probably figured once she finished I’d be OK with it, let her come back to me, resume everything with me as if nothing had happened. Now she’s not got any lover to talk to (assuming she’s not in contact with him….I don’t know either way) She’s had a little time with my parents and a little time with a friend. Now she's housesitting in another town with no local friends. She’s probably feeling isolated and lonely. She probably has doubts, concerns, fears.

I’m still in a place where I don’t care. I'm focusing on myself.

I want to do good work on my boat. I want to spend time talking to my friends. I want to work through the crap that I need to work through. I want to re-form my life with things that I want and love in it. I’m finding myself caring a lot less about my marriage.

The recent txts/emails from my wife have me feeling pressured. She wants to talk to me. I’m aware of it. NOT doing something when she wants me to is still an uncomfortable feeling for me. I think I’ll sit with this one a bit longer.

I don't want to talk to her or contact her when I'm reacting. I still do a lot of reacting. For the last several days, when I'm almost done reacting and thinking about my response, I get another contact, and the process starts again.

This isn't even a problem for me! I'm aware that I will need to resolve conflicts with her someday. It isn't what I need to do today. I've got more important things to do for myself. I'll wait until I know I can be true to myself with her. Until I feel ready to resolve things with her.

Finally read her file of what she wanted to say to me. The good part: It was all about the sort of problems I'm having with my r/s with her OTHER than the cheating.

I'm not making my own choices. I'm working that. (I've already written plenty about that!)

She feels that she comes up with all sorts of stuff she wants to do, and I shoot it down. She wrote about that sort of stuff.

They are matching problems... .

Then I called her. Two hours. All civil. Some warm. Some tense. Some awkward silences.

The good part: She still likes me, and loves me. Doesn't want me to go completely away.

The other good part: She did admit that she acted against her own morals when she cheated.

The better part: I did pretty darn well at sticking to my boundaries, and communicating them clearly.

The bad part: She's still in contact with the guy and won't end it. (Yet. She's 'considering' it)

The tough part: I didn't quite live up to the statement I made earlier to a good friend: If she won't cut contact with him, it is time to start talking about dividing up assets.

The other good part: I told her that I loved her and that she was worth working really hard to fix our r/s. Ended the conversation that way.

---

I've been through the wringer on feelings since then.

In the aftermath, I've asked myself (almost rhetorically) how long I'll let her keep thinking about ending contact with him, before I start end our r/s.

I realized something WONDERFUL. I get to choose that. I get to choose when I'm done with our r/s.

It isn't a choice I want to make. It is empowering to remember that I get to make it. When I want to.

Yes, yes you do!  I am never one to judge anyone else and where they are in their relationship.  We have to be the best judge of what is right for us.  I do strongly believe that I will know if and when it is time to end my relationship (having ended others, I am well aware I am capable of it).  Keep firm to your boundaries and true to yourself!

Have read the thread for the most part, here are a few questions from my part:

What is it that you want, GK? What does your future look like in 5 years? Don't make the answer dependent on her (not) being in it, try to investigate what you want, it is probably extremely difficult. Try to stay away from phrasing what you don't want (that's easy... ). You have a blank page. What would you write down?

What is it that you are getting out of the r/s in the past 5 years? Both positive and negative?

I wrote down 4 different boundaries when I started the r/s with dBPDxbf.

- no verbal abuse targeted at my weight or appearance

- no physical abuse

- no cheating

- no bad periods more than 30 days consecutively

- he needed to stick to therapy

He busted 3, 4, and 5 and got angry in calling me needy, 'over the top', shouted 'what the hell do you want from me' when I just calmly asked to set a time for dinner and telling me I was expecting too much of him (?).

A few weeks ago I wrote a list with pro's and cons and it got painfully clear what I was getting out of the r/s (3 or 4 quite superficial things that I could easily build up with someone new or aren't even really important) and over 9 things that were structurally not matching with what I wanted out of a r/s.

I still go through phases where I yearn for whatever type of addiction to the intensity it was, but I also have mornings where I wake up relieved. Of the constant issue in my head of having to deal with this. My dilemma was: he was making such a big effort, and I value to reward that with something. But in reality, what he was doing, and what I wanted, was miles miles and miles apart. The only way to make that decision is to start getting clear what your life should look like in 5 years. Yay, you get to decide that, too .

If it's being with her, because despite all that has happened you're okay with it, that is fine. It means you're signing up for another decade of instability (probably) and insecurity of her not busting your boundaries again. That's fine - but it should be a conscious choice.

On the attachment and fear of intimacy topic: when anxiously attached people stay together (they are indeed drawn to each other for a reason), they usually keep each other anxiously attached. Secure attachment wins in a match with a secure attached person. My T said about me choosing dBPDxbf as a partner, that I am probably very good at "bearing the distance", as pwBPD always require a certain distance.

In the end, it wasn't dBPDxbf's behavior or emotions or cheating that made me decide to leave. It was his attitude towards changing and recovery: he doesn't believe in it anymore. And if he doesn't, there is no point in me doing it for him. I also realized that staying with him would not make me more healthy attached, and I know that my attention seeking behaviors have not helped me nor him. Fact is, that even though that is my part of the dance, I am being triggered to dance more heavily because I was with someone that kept pulling away from me, constantly getting me in a state of anxiousness due to my own attachment issues.

I'm still rooting for him to use our recent events + new experiences in his professional life as a breakthrough in his mindset, but... I have no idea if it's going to happen. In all honesty, I think it will take a while.

My point being; you can't decide unless you know what you want, or else anything you do will be reactive. So: try to find out what you want. Then mix & match, stick to it, and decide. Whatever you choose, it will make you feel like you're in control and taking good care of yourself. And that's worth a gazillion.

ps Maybe not the best answer for the Staying board, sorry.

*mod*

This thread has reached its post limit... .It is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation.