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So... .now that the title has sucked you into reading this thread... .*)   :)    |iiii

I want to assure you that this actually happened... .I'm going back and forth between doing the Beavis and Butthead... ."huh huh huh... .he he he"... ."Cool... .a naked chick... ."  (all women are allowed to eye roll here... .I'm fine with it... )

And being hurt at the complete lack of empathy and self awareness my wife is displaying while doing this... .

This may be a bit random... .but here is the situation and history.

NEVER... .has my wife sent me a picture of a naked woman in 20 some years of marriage.  A bazillion times she has accused me of wanting women... .all kinds of crazy a$$ stories about what I'm attracted to and what I want.  Very invalidating to me... because I don't want most of those things.  (Hey... .if you toss enough stuff out there... .you'll find a few things that interest me... .)

But... from the point of view of me... .and my r/s with other women... .my thinking about them.  I mainly do that when she brings it up.  In other words... .if she would hush... .90% of the mental time spent thinking about other women would vanish.  I would be much more at ease... .would appreciate her more... .

I've got about a week... maybe a bit more... .until my next MC session.  We spent two sessions focusing on my "obsession" with watching a girl in a one piece bathing suit in the "Girl you've got what I need video... "  (long story... .I watched it a couple times... .and she completely dysregulated... .completely... .no warning.  I used a boundary... went to bed.   It did come out that this "made" her feel insecure because I found the lady attractive and kept watching.  Truth:  there could have been zero women in it... .and I would have kept watching.  Just reliving some college memories from my dorm floor.  NOTHING to do with women.

Anyway... .this was HUGE deal in MC... .but I think there was a good outcome.  It's now more common in our r/s for me to directly ask how she is feeling... or ask about her emotions.  Generally a good outcome there... .and we are able to skip lots of accusations.  She tends to accuse... .and use my denials or "truth" in SET... .to get herself happy that I want her and not the woman in her story.  (whatever story that might be... )

So... .near as I can figure... .she sends me the naked pic of an actress (it's not airbrushed... .she's focused on that)... I don't see it until she asks about it and I go look.  She then selects a tv show that evening about politicians... .spent most of the evening "hissing" at the tv about what a liar, cheat, scumbag... .etc etc this guy was in the story... .and seemed to be making the speeches at the TV... .and kinda at me.  I tired of this... and went to bed.  Also... .this was in front of kids... pretty inappropriate... I thought. 

Middle of the night... .there is a rucus in the house.  She and oldest daughter let a dog stay inside because it was cold.  Dog is Husky... .it was 40 some degrees outside.  I asked her to go handle it.  She wouldn't speak to me or get out of bed.  I went and put the dog out.  I have sleep disabilities... and had hard time getting back to sleep.  When I got back to bed... she got up and went downstairs to sleep on couch.  Next morning I asked if she was ok... .she said she came down to "check on the dog"? (after I had put dog out)

We normally spend lots of time snuggling in the morning... .I spend time validating her... .usually gets day going right... for both of us.  5 different times I asked her to go have snuggle time... .that I wasn't feeling well due to lack of sleep.  Once she hopped in bed and stuck her feet under me... .another time she laid on the bed about as far away from me as she could... and reached her hand over and put it on me.  Started rambling on about me being on her facebook... .having her password... .(I did some SET... .focused on the T that I wasn't on her facebook and don't have or want her password).  She stomped around the room said "We're done"... and asked why I was making such a big deal about facebook.

Sort of a "normallish" rest of day yesterday.  I tried to catch a nap here and there... not much luck.  Asked her several times to help me get a good nights sleep as I had big day and week... .and was sleep deprived.  To me... .the evening seemed louder than normal.  I focused on not reacting... .she apparently slept in another bedroom.

No idea if whatever is going on will continue today or not.

My plan for next MC.  Keep focus on the What the heck?  element of this... .beat me up about women... and then you send me a pic and are asking about her breasts and if I like them ( I do... .but kept this to myself).  Also... I would like a boundary about shows with "cheaters".  I don't think either of us should be watching.

There's also the element here that I consciously try to avoid material like this.  She knows this.  She knows I do this out of respect for myself, her... .it's not something I think my kids should be doing... so why should I.  She honors this be doing what?  Really?

We've made huge progress... .I want to keep that going forward.  I have no plant to "react" or flip out over this... .but intend to keep the focus on her actions... and the nonsensicalness (is this a word?) of this.

I fully realize that I could see myself advising others to "let this go"... .don't bite.  But... you can't "let everything go". 

So... .start asking questions... .sharpening my arguments... .my focus. 

She will most likely claim I'm "trying to make her look crazy... "  If accurately describing her actions "makes her look that way"... .so be it.

I've never found this method to be helpful, as delusions of the paranoid type seem to have a special energy all their own.

Have therapists talked with you and/or your kids specifically about mom's illness? How to think about it and how to handle it?

Well, mine has never actually sent me a pic of a naked woman, but she thinks it's cute to make sure I notice anybody that walks in a store or restaurant dressed provocatively.  "There's you one, honey!"  is her favorite line.

What she doesn't realize is at this point, IF I were interested in anyone else, as long they bathed, breathed, and didn't have BPD, everything else is negotiable.  My eyesight isn't what it used to be anyway. :)

Yep... .I agree... .it most likely won't be helpful or "good"... but I also think that I have to "do something".  I don't want more naked pictures.  I don't want to say she did something wrong... .but she needs to clearly know I don't want this to happen any more.

I honestly want to understand  "help me understand"... .what she was thinking... .or what the purpose was (however misguided).

I've been through a lot of whacky stuff... .I just never saw this coming... .or have a clue what to do.  I'm trying to think along the lines of a boundary to start enforcing... .I know I can't control her... .but I control me. 

I will no longer have discussions with her about attractiveness of other women... .or their parts... .or... .I don't know.  Before I would entertain those conversations... .and use them as an opportunity to validate her... .and to listen to what her emotions are really doing in there.

Yes... .we've talked with therapists.  Family therapy guy was a huge help.  Basic idea is to not "feed" it.

She is probably feeling insecure and was looking for one of two things. She either wanted you to say, "No, I do not find her attractive", which she will then argue about. Or, she was wanting you to validate her and tell her how pretty she is. I know this from my own experience. I have pointed out good looking women to my husband and I may have sent him a picture or two of other women. It wasn't right of me to do those things but I did them out of frustration because my husband is a sex addict and has said that I do not excite him. I have had periods of being very confused and insecure about my husband and his actions. During those times, I did things that I am not proud of because I did not have any other coping tools.

I did have somebody send me pictures of naked men once. I told him flat out, "Look, please stop sending me those pictures. I am not interested in looking at other people's parts. The only naked parts that I want to see are yours. Yes, those parts are attractive but they are not attached to you so I am NOT interested." (That may not be exactly what I said but that is the gist.)

You're doing great with this tricky situation, formflier.

I'm struck with the power and simplicity of her photo-sending strategy. (That she has done this must mean that you've been showing maturity, restraint, and boundaries.) It can be read as a way to "bring it" to you--this issue that is always front and center in her mind. To maintain control and make sure your focus remains on her.

What a challenge!

Having experienced this myself, I would say baiting.  My pwPD would do these kinds of things to bait a situation so that she dysregulate about bad feelings she was having about something else like job, life, family and be able to project it on to me as an excuse for her behavior.

 

Update.  Went home for lunch today.

Totally fine... .I didn't mention pictures... .it was completely normal.

My plan is to go for walk... or have private time with her after I get home to chat and listen.  No distractions.

I really want to make sure I am listening... .and not "how dare you send me a naked picture... "

Yet... .I have to make sure at the end... .if we make it that far... .she hears a clear... .unambiguous... .I don't want you to send me any more.

We have done some very "light" sexting back in the day... but that was she and I.  I think she accidentally sent a text to someone other than me... .I don't think it was a pic... .just a suggestive text... .and was embarrassed.

We both agreed (years ago)... .to leave sexting to  the teenagers.

So... .what I'm trying to say... is I have no idea where should could have thought this was ok.  Although... .I've never said to her not to send them... .it never came up.

More background... .I say we still have a healthy sex life... .I am consistent about trying to flirt... .tell her she looks awesome... .I enjoy her... .enjoy having sex with her... .any way you cut it... .I don't think I have sent her any signals that say I'm not happy with her.  (I know I didn't have to send the signals for her to think things up... )

Me:  I'm really not "worried"... .I'm insanely curious to know how this got turned into an ok thing.  Since this is "new ground"... .there is some anxiety there to handle this "right". 

And... .there is a part of my that wants to chuckle at this... .

Hard to describe... .

This is female insecurity run amok! We age daily, the magazine covers get younger and younger. We are bombarded with images of models who don't even look like that in real life. BPD or not, all women want a little extra validation from time to time that we're still "hot". You're assuring her of that in every way, but maybe she needs more. My suggestion is to tell her you only have eyes for her and NO woman could compare.

Then again, maybe she's thinking of getting a breast lift and this is her way of asking to see what kind of breasts you like? Weird way to go about it, but anything's possible!

Are there some private photos of well-known actresses making the rounds "virally" these past few weeks because some hacker accessed them illegally?

 

The Pirates of the Carribean lady posed topless for a magazine.  The only stipulation (seems to be) that they don't airbrush it. 

So... .it's her standing there with "regular looking" breasts.

So... .I guess she has on makeup... .I don't know.  I guess she is supposed to look sexy or something.

Some kind of fishnet stuff on her arms.  It's not a "medical" photo... .it's a "done up" one for a magazine.

I have no idea if the breasts are retouched or not... .

The article that goes with the pictures is talking about shooting digital versus film. 

I've read the article again and don't have a clue... .about if there is anything in the article I was supposed to notice.

Reaction #1: What the heck?

In more detail: Her hot button issue is jealousy and fear that you are attracted to other women.

Guessing on her motivation is hard to stop... .but dangerous to mention in conversation with her.

I might even go as far as asking her What the heck? That might have worked immediately, but the window for that has probably closed.

I'm remembering a website I once found called "Wife Approved Porn." It was by a woman who enjoyed sending erotic or sexy pix (of other women or couples) to her husband... .for the two of them it was a fun playful sort of sexting-ish thing to do. I do NOT recommend you search for this one, or mention it to your wife, FF!

I'm bringing it up because I cannot imagine that your wife sent it to you for a secure and happy reason, whatever her reason was.

I'd recommend telling her how you felt when you got it. (You've already covered this)

I'd also agree with your idea of asking her not to do it again.

I do this... .but have to carefully build up to this... .because if she seems to think other women compare or are better... it's invalidating... .and we have argued about this in the past.

I don't do that anymore. 

If I say she looks great... .and she huffs or disagrees... .I usually says something about "I'm sorry you feel that way... "... and I move along to another subject.

 

Yes... to be clear... .I had not seen it. 

She mentioned it to me.  I... not knowing it was really a naked pic... .made the pirate "aaargh" sound... .and moved on to another subject.

Later... .I went and found it... .there was other drama yesterday where it didn't appear good to bring up... .

But... .you are right... .the What the heck?  moment has passed... .but I need to address it.

I am going to ask you to re-evaluate how important it is to address this. 

I mention this because this just sounds like such typical BPD chaos, in that you won't likely get any kind of answer or change that will completely make the What the heck feeling go away.  And more than likely, she will wind up doing the same thing again (or similar).  Is it worth wasting your energy now trying to get her to understand something she probably won't be able to ever understand?

It is a minefiled for you, FF

Your wife doesn't believe she is attractive and desirable. So when you say otherwise, it is invalidating.

Agreeing with her fears/concerns/feelings about her appearance would start WW3.



You can state your feelings (you have clearly said here that you feel she is attractive!). By making it clear that this is your personal opinion and feelings you get a little ways away from the invalidation.

You can validate her feelings... .which is dangerously close to the WW3 version.

 

And... .to be clear... .my wife is hot.

She is fit... .get's jealous looks from other women... .when they hear that she has 8 kids... .they are aghast... .

Max,

Yes... .this is one of those things... .where she has "upped her game"... .(maybe... .I do want to understand her reasoning)... .but I want to use this "real" incident... to somehow implement a barrier... .or move the r/s in a better direction.

Because... .I'm done listening to her accuse and wonder about met wanting other women... .thinking about them... .and then she sends me one to look at.  What the heck?

Now... .I don't want to be reactionary... .I want to be calm... .I want to focus on behavior... .I don't want to "punish"... .I'm tired of hearing about this... .and if this can be used to help me hear about women being after me a lot less... .then I'm all for it... .

Thoughts?

Do you think she is capable of learning/growing here?  One thing I have learned in my r/s is that any time I think I can use an incident as a "teachable moment" I can expect 1) her to not understand me, and get defensive or angry 2) she may eventually understand cognitively, but that all falls apart when she is emotional - which is most of the time 3) that long-term change in her behavior is extremely unlikely.  My SO is about to be 39. She's had LOADS of teachable moments in her life.  She's had LOADS of mistakes to learn from.  And unlike most people, rather than learning from mistakes, she tends to make mistakes more frequently. 


I hear ya on this one.  This same scenario over and over is extremely tiring.  And if you knew me, you would understand how being accused of cheating, flirting, looking at other women is so incredibly invalidating (and a turn off).  I'm such a loyal person who never has had any interest in casual, meaningless relationships.  She's the one who has gone through periods sleeping around, working as a stripper, cheating on people - so to hear her accuse me or even imply that I may be attracted elsewhere feels damaging to who I am at my core.

I'm not sure there is a way to easily wade this issue.  Right now, I deal with it by trying to tune it out.  Although, I think she may be catching on - so maybe there is some hope that she is learning.  I've told her before that double standards really bother me.  She's gotten defensive here, trying to explain that certain situations are not double standards.  For example - okay for her to be friends with an ex because he was a friend before she dated him, which is different than me being friends with an ex.  But recently a friend of hers was talking about throwing my SO a bachelorette party complete with strippers, etc, and my SO seemed excited and asked if that would be okay with me.  I said "sure, do whatever you want to do for fun."  And then she thought about it, and said "Wait a minute, I wouldn't be okay if you did the same thing, so maybe this is a double standard and I need to re-think this."

 

Thanks Max,

My history here is a bit different.

15 years of wedded bliss (lots of deployments that most likely masked issues)... .then... .things really kicked of after a natural disaster kept us out of our home.

Paranoia seems to be key... paranoia about me and other women...

So... .in my mind... it got worse "all of a sudden"... .and I made it worse... .by not knowing what I was doing for several years.  I invalidated things by using logic.

Momentum is going in right direction through counseling and me doing lessons and "right things".

One comment... .my life is getting dramatically better.  Much less "weird" BPD trait stuff... .spacing of these things are spaced out much much better... .further apart.  But... the weird stuff... .when it happens... seems to be getting weirder.

So... .if anyone remembers the story about a lady that had a snake in her basement... posted on facebook.  My wife see's it... .see's the lady and casually asks about it.  The lady says she told the preacher (our preacher) about the snake and the preacher said he would call me (yeah... .What the heck?) to handle it  Only... .I never got called... .I never knew about it... .and wife launched big investigation... .multiple counseling sessions on this one issue.

I think there was a good resolution... .in counseling... .we finally stayed calm... .and she identified that she was feeling insecure about her r/s with me... .and that I "might" have a r/s with her. (snake lady)

Anyway... .Me, wife and counselor now all agree that if this comes up in future... .I need to focus on asking her what she needs or is feeling... .rather that the details of the incident.  Made some progress on communication style as well.

Somehow... .I want to "use" this incident to make progress.  At a bare minimum... .she will know I don't want her to send me more pictures.

Thoughts?

Is there a way that you can ask her what she was feeling when she sent you the picture?

 

That is kinda my plan tonight.

 

Well... .we had a long talk about it.  Listening to her reasoning... and her feelings went ok.  She basically thought this woman was "brave" by being "real"... and not airbrushing.  She wanted to share that with me.

I honestly don't think she was trying to be sexual or something like that.

Well... when I said that in the future I wouldn't mind getting pictures of her... .if she wanted to send them... .but I really didn't want to get pictures of other women from her... .she got up... said something under her breath... .stormed down stairs... .and... as I type is "very loudly" doing the dishes.  Bang... clang... .she has cranked up some music... .has done some loud muttering (really couldn't understand what she was saying.)

So... .hmmmm

 

Well... my plan is to stay put.  I'm kinda tired... .so I'll probably try to go on to sleep.

The old me probably would have went down there to check on her.  Right now... .that doesn't sound like a good plan. 

My gut says this will burn out after a while.

But my gut also tells me... this means there was more to this than the "good" talk that we had for about a hour or so.

So... .to recap the evening.  Took her out to dinner.  Place was a bit crowded... so didn't seem like good place to get into conversation like that.

We came home... snuggled in bed for a while.  Talked about nothing in particular.  Eventually had sex.  Relaxed afterwards for a while... .

I asked her what she thought about the picture she sent... .we spent over an hour talking about the picture... .what I found attractive in her... .

What I can identify with is that she appreciated that this woman was "real"... .  I have always been attracted to her (my wife) because she is real.  Not a made up "cartoonish" woman.

That all seemed fine... .until I tried to steer the talk to not getting naked pictures from her of other women.

Any thoughts on how that went south?

Sigh... .

It's certainly true that you don't want her to repeat this,.but between her comments about the woman being "real" and you stating that you don't want her to send you anymore pics, I missed the validation part. Did you ask her why, or what about being "real" appealed to her? Do you think that her comments might indicate, leaving the sexual nature of this aside, that she might be feeling as if she is not being "real" recently? There could be a significant subtext here.

 

There could be.  She also thought this lady was "brave" for going public with no airbrush... .that it could "ruin" her hollywood career.

I don't agree with that... but let it go.

The validation part was that I thought she (my wife) looked great.  At some point my wife indicated that she and the lady in the photograph looked similar.  Both are similar body styles... builds... .

I never once said lady in photograph was hot... sexy... etc etc.  I mad sure comments about that were reserved for my wife... .if she draws a connection between her and the photo... .so be it... rather than hearing me say the lady in the photo was "hot"... and then hearing me say they are similar... .and then having to figure out that he must think I am hot because I look similar to picture.

At one point during evening... .I asked her how she thought she stacked up against over women... .and she said very well.  Not in a "self absorbed" kinda  way... but honest.  And it's true... .most of the surrounding female population of that age has gained a lot of weight... .gotten nips and tucks done... etc etc

So... I agreed with that... .

Right now... .nothing comes to mind about her not being "real"... .but I'll keep thinking about it.

So... .she stayed somewhere else in the house... .for the third night in a row.  I got a decent night's sleep and I'm relaxing in the bedroom before heading down to find some breakfast.

If I had to guess, I would say that your wife felt invalidated that what started out as a "real" conversation, where her thoughts and feelings were being expressed about the bravery of this actress being willing to end her Hollywood career over no airbrushing, turned around to be about you not wanting to receive pics of naked women.  So, at that point, the good talk you two were enjoying became null and void. 

The picture in itself was not about "sex", but being comfortable in our own skin, being authentic and real.  And brave on your wife's part feeling comfortable enough in her own right to send this to you.  Perhaps to see how you'd react?  Not sure.

And then she heard, "naked women" in a derogatory sense. 

*bang clang loud muttering and music*

 

Could be.

And... about 10 minutes after I sent the last post... as I was getting up and moving about... .she comes in the room and hops in bed. 

I go back and hop in with her and we have nice long snuggle... .like I'm used to having with her in the morning.  We had sex... .snuggled some more... and now I'm about to head out for the day.

She didn't mention anything about the night before... .I didn't either.

I guess my plan is to hang on the MC... .in about a week... maybe little more and then bring it up then.  The point that I'm not willing to let go of... the issue in the r/s that I will not take ownership of is introducing "other women" into the r/s.

I understand she "feels" that I have done this... .but I haven't.  That is a fact that I'm not willing to budge on.  I feel no need to "bludgeon" her with that either... .I'm trying to figure out the balance.

MC seems an appropriate place to bring this up. 

I'm willing to be quiet about a lot of things... .this is not one of them.

My goal is to use this incident to get myself out of the line of fire of "theories" about me and other women.  This has been getting better... .I'm better at it.  But... .if I look to the future... .am I willing to put up with this behavior... .at this level... .long term.  No... I"m not.

Right now... I stay in line of fire... .validate... .try to understand... .etc etc.  And it's not been as abusive as it was in the past... .

Anyway... .I gotta run... .but I'm going to need help thinking through this...

Where it went south? I think Phoebe found the place, and so did you:


Another take on it: Talking about her concerns, and her reasons for doing sending the message to you was validating. Talking about "real" vs photoshop/cosmetic surgery. All reasonable and validating.

I don't know what you said at that point... .but your description (my emphasis) indicates that you were trying to change her behavior. Telling her what she should do. It would have felt controlling and invalidating to her. ESPECIALLY after she had been vulnerable enough to share her insecurities with you up until then.

... .so how could you have done it differently, and steered for controlled flight into terrain? (I'm not an aviator; I may have the terminology wrong :) )

If I could re-write your history (kinda like Groundhog Day), I'd suggest telling her that you have been attacked by her for your interest in other women too many times, and are overly sensitive and fearful about the subject. Explain your fears, and that you spent three days worrying about what to do about this email because of it.

Make it about yourself and your feelings, not about her actions, or changing them.

I can see that... .and I get where you are going with it Grey Kitty.  I like that.

So... .if I'm making it about me... and my feelings... .and then about my actions... .I think I have a plan that I like.

I want my r/s... my marriage to be between my wife and I.  I don't want other women involved in my relationship.  I won't participate in that any more.  I won't participate in discussions about other women being "in" my r/s... .in my marriage... .or in my thoughts.

It's not healthy for me to think about desires that I don't have.

So... .my wife can and will do what she wants.

But I will no longer participate in any of that.

I personally have my best results with this method. My husband can contact all the attorneys he wants in an effort to sue all the people he believes are harassing him. He can contact the governor's office for the same purpose.

Your situation is especially tricky, as so much is aimed at you.

Could your wife increase time with friends, activities and interests outside the home to occupy some of the restless energy she seems to have? (Possibly not with eight kids .)

 

Agreed... the tricky part is that she claims... .for the most part... that I desire this and that... .want some other woman... or whatever.

So... I can't control what comes out of her mouth... .but I do control if I respond to it or not.

Probably will... bring this up in MC as something for us to discuss and agree on.

How possibly could she argue from a position that other women need to stay in our r/s.  Especially if I'm staying away from "who" brought them in.  In other words I want to focus on the future... .not re-litigate the past.

If the discussion devolves into something accusatory... .or... .who knows what... .I just need to make sure that I focus on that I want to be in a r/s with my wife... .period... .

When discussing my feelings lately... .we have had some success with getting her to "understand" my feelings.  That is much different that agreeing... .or disagreeing with the way I feel.

Been there. Fought that battle. Actually the things my wife claimed I was thinking were usually not about desiring other women... .but she was claiming what I was thinking, and beating me up for it.

Not a problem any more. Simple boundary enforcement:

I will not argue with somebody about what *I* am thinking or what *I* am feeling. Those discussions end immediately if I am told what is inside my own head by somebody not living in it.

If I'm feeling gentle, happy, and not triggered and not taking it personally, I may say that she is entitled to ASK what I'm thinking, if she is curious.

I've very bluntly pointed out that a fight about what I'm thinking is unwinnable for both of us. She will never KNOW if I've stopped thinking something or not. And I can never convince her that I am (or am not) thinking something. Because she simply does not live in my head, and never will, and never can.

 

Yep... .GK... .I want to get to a place like that.

How do you implement this?  What did the first couple boundary enforcements look like?

Did this also entail "loaded questions"... .

"Since you think xyz... .then you are a abc... .and desire 123... ."

And then between xyz and abc and desire 123... .is logical... .IF that were true... .except... I never... .ever... .ever... .ever... .ever thought xyz.

I was "lucky" I got triggered when I was accused of thinking something... .which I wasn't.

It was easy and "natural" for me to shout ":)ON'T F***ING TELL ME WHAT I'M THINKING!" Not that I precisely recommend this for anybody else  lol

Bluntness worked for me :)

Other times I was just firm. "I won't have a discussion where you are telling me what I'm thinking or feeling."

A couple times I explained in detail how completely impossible it is for me to "win" this because she cannot actually read my mind and know that I've changed. And I'm sure she can't read my mind because the accusation wasn't valid in the first place!

I leave from circular arguments about what I'm doing wrong. After a couple accusations being defused and followed by different ones, I give up. Just like I would for verbal abuse.

Decide you can only lose by continuing a conversation. You know that kind. Then make sure you don't continue and lose!

For me it is similar. I say, "It is not up to you to decide how I feel or what I think."  It is a struggle for my dBPDh not decide what I am feeling but he is getting better at acknowledging that he is "making up" what I am feeling or thinking.

 

If I could somehow "use" the picture incident... to move the r/s in the direction of no more "theories" about what I think or want... that would be huge.

I'm still very interested in finding out the underlying thought or cause (other that BPD traits)... .as in what she was thinking/feeling... .

Over the past months we have made great strides forward... .not sure that I would say we had "gotten rid of" any issues... .but they are much better. 

I'm really not up for adding a new issue to the table... .so... .at the end of the day... .my hope is that naked pictures is a one time time.

Do you foresee future naked pics becoming an issue if this isn't nipped in the bud right away?  Could this have been a one shot deal because of the subject matter involved; the realness of the picture because of no airbrushing and the thoughts and feelings your wife already expressed about it?

I really like what Grey Kitty said here:



She might be thinking something else entirely at this point.

This is your gig and your life, so of course do what you feel is the right thing to do for yourself and your marriage.

The best results I've gotten is when I've been completely honest about my feelings on a particular issue, like what Grey Kitty suggested.

Stand separately, while not attempting to change a thing about her    

 

I agree... .she need to understand (agreement is different) how I see things.

I think it is complete BS to yammer or for years about my desire for this woman and that woman and that I should have eyes only for her... that I should desire nobody else but her... .

And then send me someone else... .  I took the picture as sexual... .it looked good... .I was attracted... .airbrushed or not... .she had "the look" on her face... .

And... .she needs to understand the reality of the situation (as I see it)... .if she doesn't want me thinking about other women... .HUSH... .90% of the weird things I think about doing with other women... .are because she suggested... .accused... .asked... .

Sigh... .

But... .I see the point.  And I want to "understand" why she sent it... .I don't have to agree...

Has any part of your wife's counseling given her basic self-soothing techniques yet? Concrete things she can do when she feels the urge to interrogate you about other women?

It could be too much to expect her to "just stop" at this point. 

I believe that desire and attraction is wired into humans. I don't believe it vanishes when a human gets into a r/s. There are always other hot girls/guys out there! The attraction is real, healthy, and natural. The way we react/respond to this attraction is the place where we can end up in a huge mess... .and that is the healthy issue to address, instead of trying to deny that the attraction exists, or pretend that we can control who we are attracted to, or even worse, who somebody else is attracted to!

Most likely your wife feels attraction to other guys (a conclusion I draw because she is human, and George Clooney exists :) ) and has no tools for coping with it except for projecting crap onto you so she can beat you up emotionally to avoid her own internal conflict.

FF, the best thing you can do for her is refuse to take that role. If you won't take one role in her internal conflict, it leaves her to sort it out for herself.


Agreed. It is complete BS.

Look in the mirror. Your choice to listen to that crap for years was complete BS too.

Word Up!

(I think of it as "mental illness" rather than "BS," though.)

This is a good discussion.   I can relate to the situation where the only "uncomfortableness" on your end is as a result of her baiting you.  I see that in my own situation and feel like I am walking a tightrope between being open enough so that I can have what I consider a normal, healthy conversation about sexual attraction and being so closed that she starts to assume things.  By assume, I mean if I don't agree that another woman is attractive or I don't express my feelings she will assume I am hiding them because I am somehow guilty. 

Your wife sounds like she has a different background than my fiancé.  My fiancé started showing the BPD traits at age 10 or so, has long been diagnosed and in treatment.  It sounds like your wife it's been only in recent years that things have started to get bad in this way. Nonetheless, I agree with the comment that this may be about her projecting her own emotions onto you.  That's definitely been my experience.

I've kinda concluded about my fiancé that she has zero grasp of how people can have restraint, morals, or standards.  Why?  Because in her past she did a hell of a lot of sleeping around, exhibited uncontrolled behavior, cheated, etc.  She's even admitted to me that in past relationships she almost always had a wandering eye and broke up after a few months in favor of someone new.  Even in regards to food, she doesn't understand how I can say "I'm full" and not eat any more.  We can have a huge meal where we both claim we are full.  Then half an hour later she is pulling out a snack and offering me some, to which I always reply, "no thank you, I'm full."  I don't think she understands that.  In other words, she doesn't understand how anyone else can possibly have restraint.  She has a friend who just got a divorce, and she doesn't understand why her friend is not out sleeping around.  After all, that's what she did. 

So maybe your wife is thinking along this line, "there are so many beautiful women out there, and I am so ugly and old.  I don't understand why he is not sleeping around.  He must be at least looking, there's no way he's not!  After all, if I was in his shoes and surrounded by so many beautiful women, I wouldn't be able to control myself!"  I don't think she knows what she wants in sending you that photo, because I don't think she knows what her own emotion is here.  She probably wants some kind of validation that you find the model attractive, but also validate that you only have eyes for her.  And that's impossible because what extreme she takes here is based upon her emotions and not on your response.  I agree that the ultimate solution for her is to not send you photos like that.  She created her own no-win trap whereby she can never be satisfied.  It's like the cliché question, ":)o I look fat in this dress?"  No reply to that question will satisfy her, and she's better off just learning to not ask that question.   

So maybe you can get to some kind of understanding with her that sending photos like that puts pressure on you and does no good for her or the r/s.  But I doubt she will stop the behavior.  Next wee you will probably get the ":)o I look fat in this... ." question.  And the week after that it will be, "do you think I am too needy... ."  Or some other question that is impossible to answer.

 

FOO background.  It is common in her family to "know" why people do things... ."it's so obvious"

So... most likely they are 90% correct... .but seem to have no concept that the 10% they could be wrong on ... .could devastate a r/s.

Her parents are still married... .her mom is dominant... .big time.  Dad is a nice guy... .but a rug.  Maybe as we get older she expects me to be a rug?  Not sure how this translates to women and photos.

Sister is divorced x 2.  Displays way more BPDish behavior than my wife ever did.

Her twin brother is recluse... .divorced x 1.  Mom did everything for him... .and now mom b___es that he has no ambition... won't do things for himself.  Sigh... .

More later on this... .keep the thoughts coming... .it's helping me organize mine... .

I think your wife knows you well and injects specific elements of flattery into her approach to keep you engaged. (I thought that "snake woman" tale was a nice example.) All things you can do to pull away from this force-field are valuable, I think. And it's likely to take some time as this is a strong pattern.

Interesting... .I can see that... .I was well thought of enough to be called to "rescue" this woman.

Hmmm... .I have skills... .   *)

Mad skills!

Damsel in distress; pastor impotent to help. Who ya gonna call?

 

So... I felt that last night I had to break the tension over this ... .or tension in general... .

She got mad because she thought I was calling her names.

Me thinking it was weird for my wife to send me a naked picture of another woman... .was the same as calling her weird...

So she dysregulated.

I should have used "troubling"  instead of weird.

Thoughts?

I'm thinking that maybe had you approached it in the sense that you felt weird receiving a naked picture of another woman, it would have gone over a little more smoothly.

 

 

I agree... .and I think that is what I said... .definitely what I meant.

I know for a fact I did not say "You are weird for sending that... "

At this point... .no chance that I would remember exactly... .but yes... .making it about my feelings should have kept me a bit further from the fire... .

Did you handle the dysregulation well once it started?

I do not think it is possible to do enough work on yourself that your wife will NEVER dysregulate!

I stayed in bed... .didn't chase after her.  It was a bit worrisome to me... .because the noise an intensity of it... .was such that I haven't heard in months.

My overall comment is that she is way better... .we have longer periods of "normal"... .but... .BUT... .when it gets "troubling" (I'm going to get rid of weird from my vocabulary)... .it is more so.

And I don't think it's just my reaction... .I'm still in shock that she see's no issue with sending me a naked picture of a woman... .and believes that I should not have seen that as sexual... .yet a woman across a room can turn her head when we walk in... .and that means I want her... .and in fact have been doing things with her ?

Quick! Tell Logic Man to go back into the phone booth and put his street clothes back on!  lol

Her beliefs are not internally consistent. Don't try to make them be!

I think Logic Man... .in this case... .is more like the Hulk (shows up when I least want him to... .)... .rather than the phone booth guy.

try this line for size... .

":)on't make me logical... .you don't want to listen to my logic... .arrrgggghhhh... .arrrgggghhh... .ripping of clothes... .growling... ."

Best I could do on short notice... .

Here's something to think about, formflier.

When some weird thing happens with my Husband, and I just can't understand it or get over it or get it out of my mind, I want to discuss it with him until I finally feel that he "gets it" and will promise me that he will never do it again.

I've learned not to do that anymore. Leave it be, once he knows that I didn't like it, and I don't want him to do it again. By bringing it up periodically, he only gets angry and dysregulated, fuming that I "never get over anything" or that he "doesn't want to hear it anymore!" He just cannot really admit he made a mistake or was "wrong" 

It kills me to not be understood and validated by him, but I've found that once I let this stuff go, things are more peaceful, he is grateful for my letting it go, and he actually never does that offensive or "weird" thing again. Left to his own devices and thoughts, if I give the issue to the Universe he is appreciative and more warm towards me (the dysregulation goes away quicker and doesn't come back), and he never does it again. I got my wish, and I have learned to take that as his understanding me and validating me.

Could that be anything like your situation with your wife? I do know that every human being is different, and she isn't exactly like my Husband, but maybe this could help you? 

 

I can see similar things happening with my wife... .

I break it into two parts... .the exact thing... .and the "theory" behind the thing.

So... .a "theory" would be... .that I can read my husbands mind... .or other peoples mind... .

The "theory" that is somehow at work here... .is that other women are or "need to be involved" in our r/s.  My goal... .coming out of this... it not just that there are no more naked pictures... .but that I stop discussing other women... period.

So... .while I have a desire that she admit she should have known I would not want a naked picture... .my real goal is to just stop discussing other women.

Because... .in all seriousness... .the majority of the "weird" thoughts I have about other women... .are because my wife put them in my head.  My quality of life will jump immediately... .if that stops.

While I may never understand what my wife "gets" from dreaming up theories about me and other women... .I need to stop giving it... .and that could be interesting to experience... .

Thoughts on where I'm going with this?

Why now?  Well... .to me... .this was so over the top... .and I have been wanting to do this for a while... .so... .through MC... where we can all discuss and compromise ... I hope to have this outcome.

In other words... .it would be interesting to listen to why other women should continue to be involved in our r/s... .

My thoughts are still along the lines of Rapt Reader -

- Your wife has BPD.  Behavior such as this is par for the course.  Double standards.  Weird jealousies.  Stuff that makes no logical sense.  She always will have BPD, and that weird behavior will continue at least on some level.

- You can't change your wife's behavior.  People don't easily change, especially pwBPD.  There's no amount of explaining that will cause her to change.  Actually, the more you try and explain how this action hurt you, the less chance she will likely change.   The chances of her not bringing up other women again are pretty small, no matter what you say.

It's okay to bring up that you feel hurt and confused by this and that you wish it would not happen again.  Then it's time to move on.  She either hears you or she doesn't - and that is up to her, not you.

 

Yeah... .I agree with your comments max.  But... .what happens if I stop listening or participating in the hurtful (or undesirable) behavior

Since we are still in therapy... still sorting out our "new" marriage... .this is something I want to push for.

But yeah... .chances of me saying no more women... and she actually doesn't bring them up... .about zero... .

I need to figure out what I'm going to do when she does... .

I am lucky I have managed to get the word "dysfunctional" into our vocabulary. I can actually tell her that I believe a particular behavior is dysfunctional and driven by the disorder as a kind of heads up that the disorder is coloring her judgement, and she takes it on board as protective advice rather than as a criticism.

I think this is because we have now separated the disorder from the person, almost as if there are now 3 entities in the relationship and we can project persecutor role onto to the disorder, leaving my partner the victim (which she likes) and me the rescuer.

If she is not the disorder then criticism due to the disorder are not taken as personally. She even asks me if a particular thing might be seen as dysfunctional. A bit like I am actually allowed to tell her that a particular dress makes her look fat without copping the fallout.

As far as accusations re other women go I went through this, but it has now flipped around to the point that she actually points them out, like another guy might. I can even joke about it. Asked where I have been, I can say down the mall checking out the hotties... .So things can change.

This may be a projection, in her old life she was anything but faithful. Now we are at a stage were she only has eyes for me, no other guy is a threat, mainly because I am the only person who has ever taken her issues seriously. As a result that standard of fidelity is projected on to me so she feels looking at anyone else poses no threat.

Its a mirror of where their own head is at.

First off, I suspect she won't be sending you more naked pictures of actresses. It isn't her normal pattern. I recommend you just drop this until at least the second time she sends you a naked picture of another woman. Don't get all wrapped around an axle that doesn't even exist!

Her fears of you being interested in other women, and the accusations and incidents that come from that? From what you say, that WILL be back. That's a real axle, go ahead and wrap yourself around it  :)

So what to do next time?

First, check if you are triggered, and if you are, excuse yourself and give yourself some time to recover.

Second, if you are OK, try to find something in this to validate.

Oh absolutely I can relate here.  This future projection consumes me!  I spend so much energy trying to figure out what I am going to do next time she does XYZ.  It's not productive for me to live in that head space.  I'm not sure how to escape it, other than to work on my skills and trust myself to handle things appropriately when they happen again.  

 

Thanks for all the advice and help.

I'll bow out for now on this topic... .we'll see how this plays out in MC... .in about a week.

Until then... .be careful about opening those emails... .

*mod*

Great topic guys, very interesting as well as entertaining. If this this has raised any interesting issues for you that you wish to explore further feel free to open a new topic as this one has reached its posting limit and will now be locked

Thanks for your participation

Waverider