BPDFamily.com

I still think of myself as someone who belongs on the Staying board, but this is likely to be my last topic that belongs here.

This picks up right after the preceding thread:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=236799.0

I got a phone call from my wife after sending the email with my limits around her cheating in complete black and white. She started out ready to end it... .but still wanting to talk, wanting to be heard... .the conversation circled around a bit again... .

Looking back at it, she ended the conversation when I had kinda boxed her in--getting her to a point where I was being pretty clear that I wasn't going to force her into the old patterns in our marriage, and that that had nothing to do with my position on her cheating.

But she has been saying she can't come back for a couple days now.

So after I got off the phone with her, I called my parents and told them. They did notice that we'd been going in different directions lately, but didn't realize there were big problems like this. I told my parents that as of now, we are splitting. I told them that she had been cheating on me during her visit, and that she wouldn't cut contact with the guy.

And I asked them not to let her be unsupervised around our stuff. (We live a transient life, and many of our belongings are stored in my parents house.) I asked them to only give things to my wife that I'd told them to, when they heard that from me.

A bit of a shock for them, but they didn't have much to say. Sympathy for me, though.

I'm still hoping for a my wife to come to see reason. I'm not unable to forgive her and go back with her. If she knocks on the door, I will answer it. However I now see that my actions are going forward as a single guy instead. I've been doing this all month in various steps.

I took my wedding ring off. Since I'm far away from her, this is just about me.

I'm whupped. Past time for bed.

I'm sorry to hear this Grey Kitty.  I think you are doing the right thing by sticking to your morals.  Wish I had more advice for you as you have always been so helpful to me.

I hope your wife comes around.

 

I'm sorry, grey kitty. It was eye opening to read all of your story and it was told with such candor. I hope your wife realizes what a huge mistake she's made and that you can find some peace. 

  It makes me cry, but I need absolutely all the support I can get.

I'm waking early again, after another night of 6 hours of sleep or less.

... .and really feeling the loss right now. Every place I turn.

I made myself a cup of coffee this morning. I've done this on my own for a month now, and was used to doing it on my own from time before that

My morning coffee habit started as a positive outcome of a long-time conflict with my wife--She would awaken rapidly, and I would wake slowly... .and often stay in bed longer than she wanted. After ~15 years of fighting about it in the mornings, she started bouncing out of bed, making coffee, and bringing me a cup of coffee, and allowing me 15~20 minutes to get started. We often spent mornings snuggling, and talking then was our open and intimate time.

... .

My sense is still that she isn't making the decision to end things with a clear head, and that is heartbreaking. She gave me a hypothetical version of irreconcilable value differences in a prior conversation. Kinda hypothetical-like.

1: When you love somebody (or maybe it was when somebody loves you, I forget which), you are given some sort of power over them to control them. (This sounded a little better when she stated it. It is sounding horrible now)

2: If you love somebody, you will be happy about anything that makes them happy, or want anything that makes them happy

I told her that I rejected both versions. Neither works for me.

I think I've got my own version of irreconcilable differences in values:

Me: I measure a person based on their actions first, their words second.

This includes my wife. Her actions are to maintain the r/s with this guy, which started without my consent.

My wife seems to measure me by my intentions (as she sees them), above my words, if not my actions.

But... .As a friend said to me: I don't owe her any explanations ever again.

And yet... .it is very likely she will attempt to recycle.   She says no no no right now, but wait - I will not be at all surprised if she attempts to recant here story.   It will be cast as if you misunderstood, she never intended to leave you and that something other than her own actions caused her to cheat.    She will be convincing.

How you react is up to you of course.   Be prepared for this.

I am so sorry Grey Kitty. 

You have been a great support for me and others here.


I, too, used to believe this (and hear this from my wife), and in trying to live to this standard, not only did I sacrifice my own feelings, happiness, self-worth and basically joie de vivre, it never made my wife happy. Your situation may be different, but I now tell my wife, "I will support whatever makes you feel happy and good about yourself ... .as long as you are kind and are not harming anyone." I found that my happiness is important, too. Yours is too. But I suspect that you already know that. 

Wish you well on your journey. You are pretty awesome. 

Thanks for the support. 


I think this was the position my wife thought she believed in, and the other was the one she thought I believed in.

"Not my circus, not my monkeys"

I'm prepared for getting no clear resolution unless I choose to make it happen.

Spent this morning writing an email. Not sure if I will send it or not. She's probably not awake in her timezone yet.

---

Subject: Separation and Individuation

Wife,

Last night after you said goodbye, I took my wedding ring off. This morning I put it back on.

I don't owe an explanation to you for that. You will decide what it means to you anyway.

I do have something else I need to tell you about:

INDIVIDUATION:

We have been making some progress on individuation at least since we bought our boat. Separate email accounts. Separate relationships with Mr & Mrs GK. Separate phones.They all worked better for me, despite feeling uncomfortable at the time...

Before you told me you wanted to end things, I was already taking more steps in that direction. Choosing not to involve myself in things which are clearly yours. Choosing not to involve you in things which are clearly mine.

I am continuing with this. I believe it is healthy for me, if we reconcile. Or if we separate.

SEPARATION:

Separation is dividing up things which are shared, not individually yours, or individually mine. I hope we don't have any conflicts about which things are mine, yours, or joint. I expect some conflicting desires with you about how to separate our joint assets.

My choice is to do the absolute minimum separation for today. I wish to do all the individuation before we start to negotiate and resolve separation.

I do not wish to do the separation piecemeal.

I do not want to take steps that will make it harder for me to reconcile with you today. I'm still wearing my ring.

Love,

Grey

---

This falls into the category of sharing my feelings with my wife, more than I owe her right now, especially the parts about the ring and waiting on separation to keep reconciliation easier.

The rest of it is unambiguously true. I'm still not sure if anything good will come of sending it to her either.

Thoughts?

Grey,

I've followed your posts for some time.

As someone who's been through BPD hell, went through the aftermath, and now in a happy marriage with a healthy person, it still never ceases to amaze me realizing how my mind was warped back then, and how my reality was shifted. How I wanted to make things work when, in reality, after all the *&^ he had caused, it should have been him.

Your wife cheated on you. She broke the agreement you had, knowing how important it was to you.

It should be her trying to apologize to you and make you stay - not the other way around.

It should be her begging you to put your ring back - not you pacifying her.

It should be your decision whether or not this marriage continues - not hers.

All those things should be on her. Because she is the one who cheated.

That's the plain reality.

pwBPD have an incredible ability to turn things around. It is your job to be strong and see through the smoke and mirrors.

With your current setup, even if you guys do get back together, I doubt you would gain much in the long term. The only way to make any headway is to stand your values and let the chips fall where they may. Because those values are important to you and you should value yourself enough to stand by them.

I suspect that you already know this.

No one said this was easy. Defending your values requires real conviction and belief in yourself. It is probably the most difficult thing you will ever do in your life.

I wish you strength.  

I told this to my T one day, and it cracked him up.  He had never heard it before.

Sorry to hear about the marriage situation.  I'm afraid it sounds like it might be the end.  I'd like to say if my BPDw did that I would be able to forgive, but I really don't know.  I think if she was truly sorry I might, but I suspect it would end up in a situation like you are facing now, and in that case I would probably react much as you are.  I hate to say it, but I suspect even if you stay together she will view it as permission to repeat this.  Ending it may be the only option for your own peace of mind.

I wish you the best--your advice has been a great help in the short time I've been on this forum.  Whatever happens I hope it results in some peace and happiness for you. 

If you do end it, please do keep visiting this board--we need your advice and counsel.

Good luck and prayers for you.

GK,

I think your degree of thoughtfulness and ability to articulate that thoughtfulness is right up there on par with that of "MaybeSo." (And I think she's now a professional counselor, no?) Her recent posts on one of your threads paralleled your situation, it seems: both of you are growing weary of "repeating grade school"--as I think she put it--and yearning to move on to higher education, with respect to relationship issues.

But is your wife, maybe, moving in the opposite direction? This affair guy is no young lad, is he? Could he represent to her a permanent Peter Pan fantasy of not having to face mature choices and responsibilities? (With you, of course, always waiting around for her repeated returns. As maybe the affair guy's partner does for his.)

She doesn't seem to hear you.

That's pretty much my reality. Especially things in bold.

I italicized "should's" Because the word should has no place in reality. It only applies to wishes and hopes.

As for the decision to end a marriage. There are two decisions. We each get one. Continuing requires two "yes" answers. Ending happens with one or two "no" answers.

I'm giving her a room where I may still say "yes", on the terms that I can accept.

Not because I should do it.

Not because she deserves it.

Because my values support that extra bit of generosity.

Because it isn't costing me much to wait a few more days.

And because I don't believe she is clear in her mind and heart what she really wants, and how reality applies to it. If she wants to leave in a grounded, certain way, there would be no stopping her. That's not how she feels.

Because in my heart, it feels right to leave the door open a little longer and tell her that she is invited to come back in... .even though she blew through a wall already. I'm already re-building something amazing where that wall used to be. Given my amazing future, I can forgive the explosion which gave me room to re-build better and stronger.

I will not let her walk back in wearing that emotional suicide bomber explosive vest.

I'd still appreciate any comments on the email I was thinking of sending. But please consider this: I've realized that it isn't matching my needs now. There is one "little thing" or perhaps one "big thing" that matters more for me.

I still intend to complete the individuation process now. I'd still rather delay the separation and full division of assets and our lives and belongings. I've got some small hope of not needing to do it.

However I'm realizing that there *IS* something bigger I need. I need to have ownership of our boat. I'm willing to pay her fair value for it. I want this even if we reconcile.

I need to have some plans and dreams of my own to work toward. Ones that aren't tied to my wife. Re-building my sailboat and sailing it somewhere is the dream I want to pursue. I don't want to be tied to her for this.

I've got a plan to finish my current necessary projects, and get at least one of my sailor friends to help me deliver her to the other coast with me. I want to be free to pursue this on my own. And perhaps negotiate with my wife a life together when I arrive. If we both still want it.

Meanwhile I'm going to go out and do some boat projects... .and let her contact me if she has business with me.

I need to chew on this before I start negotiating it with her. It won't be easy--I'm pretty sure that our boat is the one joint asset my wife cares most about. Even if she did tell me that she would give me first shot at her should we split.

I am so sad by this, Grey Kitty. My heart goes out to you. 

You are a good writer, and a thoughtful, patient man. But I'd hold off on the email a little while if you can. I understand wanting to keep the door open, but I wonder if sending the email right now puts pressure on her to decide when she may not be able to? You can keep the door open without letting her know it's open. She must know somewhere, deep down, that you are willing to reconcile. If she ultimately closes the door, separating your assets now will put you ahead of the game. But for your sake, I hope and pray it doesn't come to that.

I needed to write it. I don't think I need to send it.

Maybe later.

My best option is to give my wife time to sort out her own feelings.

And take care of myself.

Definitely take care of yourself. Write her volumes of letters if it helps. I've sent many letters that never got sent. Or write here. Or work on your boat. Whatever helps. I'm sorry you're going through this.

I just felt whupped at the end of the day yesterday.

This morning I'm somewhere between peaceful and numb. Not quite sure which.

It sounds like my wife had a civil, but uncomfortable time when she went by my parents house to pick up some things she needed for a road-trip she was going to do. The report I got wasn't one of sounding angry... .and my mom said she was speaking as if she thought things could/might/would? work out between us. She also told my parents that her dad knows something is happening, or is reading between the lines, but hasn't got full disclosure yet.

She returned the key to their house. Which has been both her and my base of operations, while we are in that part of the country. We both use it as a mailing address for the few things that still come as physical mail. (My parents are now giving her mail to her and my mail to me as appropriate... .)

I know I did do one thing--I forced her to face the real consequences of her actions, cheating, and separating. My parents aren't against her. (Neither am I!) The are, however, supporting me and protecting me.

She's in a difficult spot, from a logistical point of view. Living out of a suitcase. Our home is our boat, 3000 miles away, and she doesn't want to live where it is, or move back with me today. I don't want her to come back (physically here) while I'm in the boatyard either. We effectively have an open guest room at my parents house, as kindof a second home. We've got stuff that didn't fit in the boat stored there that would make a great apartment starter-kit, at least for the kitchen. She has a plane ticket to another state on the 20th, and a place to stay there for a little while, and no reason to set up residence someplace before that.

What about me?

I'm moving forward with what I want and need that is separate from her.

I'm staying connected to friends. (long distance)

I'm talking more to acquaintances locally.

I'm working to further individuate with her--uninvolveing me in her affairs, and taking her out of mine.

I'm thinking about what I will want in separation, but not taking actions on joint things.

And I'm giving her time and space to work out what she really wants.

All I can do is stop my stirring up the muck... .allow things to settle, making it easier to see clearly into the depths. She's confused enough without me getting involved.

What am I thinking of doing with/for my wife?

1. I'm definitely willing to attend joint T with her. I think my only condition for this is that she want it enough to initiate it. (I already feel clear about what I need and want in our r/s... .it will only help if she wants to get clarity)

I was thinking about setting conditions that she cut contact with the guy she's cheating with. I don't think I need to do that to talk to her in T. Heck, I'm still willing to talk to her on the phone some and she's still in contact. Sigh.

2. I'll support her (from joint assets) if/when she wants to set up a place for herself to live. We have enough cash to last much longer than I'm willing to stay in limbo... .given that we are both frugal. I'll even let her at least use a bunch of joint stuff to start out--I've got a bunch of joint stuff here on our boat that I'm using on a daily basis... .If we split, that is up for negotiation too.

Aside: This sounds so much better to me than her picking a guy (one bad choice already!) to shack up with for a while 'cuz she doesn't have access to her share of our money!

Thinking about sending another email. Actually two, as the two issues seem separate. We've been civil, even a touch friendly lately. She's busy for a few days on a road trip, so doesn't have much time to interact with me anyway.

My goals:

1. I want to go forward with making my life my own, keeping her out of my things, and removing myself from her things.

2. I do want to allow time for this to become more comfortable before negotiating division of joint things leading up to divorce.

3. I do want to improve our r/s and reconcile... .I think that my best here bet is items #1 and #2, stay fairly LC... .I am willing to do couples T with her, but do not wish to push for it. Not even sure I will mention it.

Email draft #1

Subject: Money

Hi Wife,

I do not want to negotiate dividing up our joint accounts now.

I want to spend my own money, as I see fit, without any requirement to asking you or tell you about it.

I don't want to be involved with how you spend your money.

I propose that we both have individual accounts and credit cards, and fund the accounts with initial equal deposits, followed by equal monthly transfers from our joint account.

I propose that we stop using the joint account and joint credit cards for individual expenses as soon as we can get this set up.

Grey

Email Draft #2:

Subject: Living arrangements and belongings

Wife,

My living arrangements are my own choice today. I'm not involving you in them.

Your living arrangements are your choice, and I do not want to be involved in making that choice. I know your rough schedule of where you expect to go through Hank's surgery. I know you have choices to make after that.

Until we work on living back together, this separation is a good thing.

Today I'm living on [our boat]. She is still jointly owned by both of us, and so are most of the personal items here. I am very aware of this. I'm also aware that some items here are mine, and others are yours.

I choose to offer you the same. We have many belongings, mostly joint [at my parents place]. We used them to set ourselves up in the [location from a few years back] apartment.

Please talk to me about it if you are interested in using them for your upcoming living arrangements.

Grey

First, I want to send you a great big hug! 

Number 1 on the list sounds a lot like part of the individuation process. If you have been together so long after being completely enmeshed, then it is going to take quite a while for the two of you to establish separate lives. I am wanting to work towards leaving my husband but I realize that there are a lot of steps involved. The biggest one is to keep working on creating separate lives. Untangling all of it is going to take time. Maybe you can find a way to focus on individuation without regard to whether you stay or go.

Instead of actually dividing things up, maybe you can start smaller and simply work towards inventorying what the both of you have so you can simply identify what belongs to whom. I know there was a period in our relationship where it felt like everything was ours. I started thinking about what we have and what I want and I started taking ownership of MY things.

As far as wanting to work on things, I applaud you on that. I would recommend stepping back from the idea of mentioning couples T. In my situation, I was very willing to work on things but it seemed like he could not take any kind of initiative. I am not sure I know how to explain it but the gist is that I would push and push and push for improvement. I would want to work on things between us and he seemed non-plussed and a bit clueless. I tried to have a conversation with him about our relationship this morning and it seemed to circle back to him and how hard he is trying and that he doesn't feel like he can do anything at this point to save our marriage. I am going to let him think that because I am tired of feeling like I have to tell him what to do. I am tired of trying to save a marriage with somebody that seems so disinterested. Mental illness or no, it seems to me that if he really wanted to be with me, he would show some kind of initiative. He tells me that since he is getting a better grip on recovery that his feelings about me are being reignited. The funny thing is that I sure as heck can't tell based on his actions. He hasn't made any significant changes. Maybe I am not seeing it. I struggle with feeling like a jerk because now that I feel done, he is now telling me that his feelings for me are back, blah, blah, blah. All of this is to say that at some point, the other party needs to take on some kind of responsibility for the relationship. I am done making suggestions. I have told him what I want and what I need. I can look past all of the weirdness that happened as a result of our experimentation.

Also, is it really about the other guy? I ask that because I have thought long and hard about other people. I have come to the conclusion that most of my beef is with the fact that he cannot seem to extend basic kindness and generosity towards me. It is all about him.

A friend posted this article the other day: www.businessinsider.com/lasting-relationships-rely-on-2-traits-2014-11?utm_content=bufferdc881&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

After reading it, I had a light bulb moment. I was willing to do just about anything to save our marriage. I was willing to stand by him and support him no matter what. All I really want or need is for him to turn towards me. I would accept all sorts of messiness and imperfection IF I felt like he was making some kind of bid or effort or anything really. Part of the individuation process for me is being able to take ownership of my own wants and needs without having to broadcast them or beg with him or plead with him.

Just some food for thought! I would definitely think on some of this some more and maybe rework some of the emails. If having sole ownership of the boat is really important to you, pick that and work on that first. What can you do to get sole ownership of the boat?

Yes, very true.  I had to workout what my needs were and what were wants.  Eventually, I have had to communicate those with my dBPDh because I can't expect him to mind read.  The hard part is I have to be willing to wait and take some push back on the wants.  That is where being really clear on what is a non-negotiable need and what is a want, that I am willing to negotiate on, is very important. So, getting in touch with that myself has been really healing.  While I was working on those, I did not take input from my dBPDh but from therapists and others in recovery.  So, my suggestion would be to continue to work through these on here and with your support system before you send her any kind of email.

VOC, thanks for the   ! And for your thoughts too.


Yup, that's exactly where I'm at. Individuating is what I need if we separate. It is also what I need if we reconcile. So I'm making it priority #1. (And letting my wife decide how she feels about it)


Yes and no... .

Yes, it is--I really can't accept her back if she's staying involved with him. Too much ongoing hurt and pain and conflict. I've been through it before; last time it was two years of fighting over it.

No it isn't--I know I've got changes I want to make in how I live my life, and they will show through strongly in how I interact with my wife. (I believe this applies for her too. She has admitted that she was feeling trapped and boxed in so badly that she was willing to blow apart our marriage and act against her own morals by cheating on me with the guy... .but that is her issue, not mine, and I can only use it as a source for some compassion for her.)


Funny coincidence. My wife sent me an email five days ago saying she'd love to discuss that very article with me. I opened it and read a couple paragraphs, but wasn't feeling open enough to actually read the whole thing at the time.

My :light: moment from the article is that when my wife shares her joys with me, I haven't usually given active-constructive responses. I'm afraid I tend toward active-destructive.

I suspect the lack of understanding what is HERS vs. what is OURS makes it hard for me to respond well for our r/s. (Her sharing the desire to get involved with this guy as a joy that she was looking for a positive response to is part of that problem! Needless to say, I wasn't active-constructive with that! And that seems to be one current beef. This lack of understanding of what is mine, hers, or ours gets spread around a bit... .)

I'll acknowledge that my wife is good at active-constructive responses to my accomplishments... .perhaps always was... .even though she has a long history of acting in ways that would hamstring me and keep me tied to her and prevent me from having any accomplishments on my own.

Today, it seems like we are both feeling hurt and protective enough that we seldom share our joys with each other.


It is very important to me. It is also the status quo--I'm living on our boat, and she isn't. I'm now doubting the wisdom or kindness of me pushing the legal side of this issue. I'm thinking that if I TAKE this from my wife, it will hurt her and hurt our chance for reconciliation. And if she is willing to freely GIVE this to me, it will feel good for both of us.

I'd like to get good enough with the individuation that I feel comfortable in this boat as being mine... .and that I feel safe in sharing her with my wife, who loves her too.

I'm on it--Notice that I'm posting drafts here instead of hitting "send"!

Speaking of which... .I just composed another one for myself to chew on. I'm feeling a bit more tender toward her now... .

---

Subject: Re: (email sharing article mentioned above: www.businessinsider.com/lasting-relationships-rely-on-2-traits-2014-11?utm_content=bufferdc881&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer )

Hi Wife,

Today I finished reading the article. I thought about my behavior toward you in this context. I wish I had thought this way years ago. I can see how some things you've already told to me fit this.

I'm still not ready to discuss it with you. I'm afraid of any discussion we have veering from self-improvement into spouse-improvement. I want better conversations than that with you.

Instead I will change myself and let you see the difference.

We can talk about it after that!

Love,

Grey

I read that last email to my friend and supporter. (She tells me I'm stuck with her on "Team Grey Kitty" forever) She was so impressed with it that I decided to send that email right away. Her comment was something about it being amazingly awesome on so many levels.

I've not had any significant contact with my wife for the last couple days, and don't expect any for the next couple days.

I'm feeling pretty good today. I only took my wedding ring off overnight, I'm back to wearing it again. I've also thought of a wonderful couple I know who got together later in life (both ~60, been together ~5 years). He was dating somebody before her, and she kinda ran away or broke it off or something. But remained friends. And later said to him "I really messed up when I let you get away, didn't I?"

I'm feeling strong, ready to re-define myself in my r/s with my wife, should she accept my terms. I'm feeling excited about some things I'm going to do with my life.

And I'm feeling kinda tired of her crap. Wondering why I am even choosing to give her more chances.

There have been times before when I've felt that I will HAVE to go on without her to save myself. Times when I've thought she was going to leave me and I wouldn't have the option of staying with her. This is the first time I've even started to consider whether I even want to reconcile with her or not.

Uh-Oh. If she's gonna come back, she better do it pretty soon. This one may get stronger.

I don't think she's ever considered that I would choose to move on... .not out of self-preservation, but out of the idea that I will be happier alone, or expect to find somebody better.

I'm so sorry that you're going through this.  I'm finding myself nodding along with the things you've written - about the individuation process you've almost unconsciously been going through... I feel I've been doing too.  But also, doing in a way that wouldn't make it hard to stay together. 

I feel for you - and I don't have any advice- just another person sending thoughts and prayers your way.   

|iiii  

It is a great feeling for me to be okay with the idea that my husband and I will likely not be together forever. I used to get so scared of that thought. Now, it is nice to focus on myself and think about a future without all of the BS. I am still open to the idea that my husband might improve or make some effort but I am at a point where I really don't care. I don't really feel like I am invested in the outcome. I used to be so caught up in this idea that I had to find a way to fix things. I am not going to fix anything and am instead going to try to focus on me and my kids.

I've been somewhere around that place for a while... .letting go of the need for my wife to improve. And knowing that I cannot take her back on some terms (i.e. let her have her cake and eat it too!)

The feeling that has suddenly bounced up once or twice, and utterly shocked me is very different.

I'm starting to wonder if I even want her back under any circumstances.

I know that feeling and that is why I have moved over to the leaving board. I want to mentally detach and start paving the way for us to separate. If I participate too much in the staying boards, I start feeling a bit hopeless. There are days when I wish he would just leave because the things that he says and does really get under my skin and when I try to let him know, he turns it around on me or finds a way to push back and make it sound as though I am not being reasonable.

Yes!  |iiii  That level of detachment and living your own life tells me you are choosing what is right for YOU.  That seems to be when change in our lives occurs.  This is when a business opportunity came up for me.  It is also when my dBPDh decided to really get in recovery because I wasn't going to be in a relationship like ours had been.  That shift within ourselves is huge!  I wish I could have really gotten this earlier but it took a long time and a lot of work for this to happen. 

I posted one thread on Leaving. I see a lot of unresolved resentment, anger and hurt toward an ex or STBex there, and don't find it helpful for me. I've followed a few people like you over there from the Staying board. I can't spend much time there--I'm into forgiveness. (Which isn't the same as giving her a second chance--that's a whole 'nuther question that I'm still working!)


Yes, this sort of resolve is where things happen. I hit it a few years back over the abusive aspects of our r/s. I changed. Then she changed.

I'm there again, this time about making my own choices instead of chasing hers all over the planet. I'm changing.

I'm less certain that she will change this time... .or that she will do it before I've moved on.

Yep, that is the part you have no control over.  It can go either way but YOU will be in a better place no matter what she chooses.

Yes, there is most definitely a lot of resentment, anger, and hurt. I have a whole lot of years of that built up.  :) I try not to wallow in it but it is good to find a safe place to get it out. Getting out 18 years worth of questioning my own sanity is helping me to forgive myself as well as him.

How did you get to the place where you didn't have the anger, resentment, and hurt?

My feelings exactly. Not many people there with ex's willing to get treatment, trying all they could, but failing. I felt some comfort in the dating and building healthy relationships board, but... .still different. It's allmost like I'm in limbo now. I don't feel that much anger, resentment... just a lot of hurt and sadness.

GK, I was just wondering as I never read this: how much treatment did your wife get and why did you see her as 'recovered' prior to this episode?

Again, hear hear. I feel I'm leaning towards healthier r/s and towards healthier people. I also was very adiment about not contacting dBPDxbf for a while, it wasn't healthy for me. And as soon as I made that choice, after three weeks of NC, he contacted me. I'd really like to know what is happening in his head right now. Oh wait, maybe I don't... Either way I haven't responded his calls and it feels good for now.

Schema therapy describes this type of occupation like this by the way: "Enmeshed/Underdeveloped Self - Excessive emotional involvement and/or bond with 1 or multiple others to the cost of being oneself or a normal social development. Feelings of engulfment and feelings of enmeshment (melting into one person) are associated with this." I think it's when you stop this, things change. But even though you've read about it a dozen times and think you can prevent that point of no return, you can't. You have to be fed up with it and have to be willing to let go. I have to say: I recognize the friends and brother I have this type of bond with, and the feelings of engulfment. Never had those with dBPDxbf, though.

She didn't do any sort of formal treatment plan for BPD, instead working on herself in a variety of ways. I do not think it would be a repeatable solution, nor would I expect most members to accept some parts of it! So I've been vague about it here. Here's a list of sorts:

• First step... .she was looking for a workshop to help us... .and found one for couples trying to recover from an abusive r/s... .and read about it... .and realized that she was the abusive one, not me. And then admitted it to me (!)



• Self-examination, some of which started during an encounter she had with a guy at Burning Man, and was without my consent. (Not her current level of cheating that time!) Whatever this encounter was, it had three results: My wife found something healing and helpful. The guy found something else healing and helpful. And two years of conflict b/t me and my wife over her desire to see this guy more. It happens that this guy was a very wise and kind and helpful person, and today is a good friend of both mine and hers today... .like an ex-lover to her now.



• Several bouts with marriage counseling; we re-started a couple times in different places with different T.



• The support of another lover (with my consent) who head-over-heels fell for her. (And also happened to be very codependent)



• A well run "large group awareness training" program, which has a very interesting mix of things sex positive, and inner child type work called the Human Awareness Institute.
  
  Her final breakthrough where she let go of self-hatred and stopped using abuse of me came at one of these.

My definition of 'recovered' was that her internal self-hatred finally went away. And stopped driving her to attempt to abuse me as a way of coping with it. The abusive traits always were worse when she was depressed, and after the 'recovery' last year, she was as depressed as I've ever seen her, plus coping with terrible anxiety. (Her lover mentioned above died suddenly a year ago!) ... .and didn't lash out at me then. In fact, she's not been verbally abusive to me while she's been cheating. I've not been abusive to her... .but I've also open with my hurt and anger.

I would say that she has always been very much on the higher functioning side of things too, and (relatively) self-aware and willing to change to improve herself... .obviously with some blind spots.

Good question! If I could bottle some up and email it to you, I would! 

I guess I do still go through those sorts of feelings. I just had GREAT conversations with two different friends today that I hadn't spoken with since this round of cheating began. I know I expressed some anger just today. So that's still there.

I sure go through some times with the hurt now and again. Perhaps more loss over what my marriage used to be, or what I thought it used to be.

Not sure where the resentment went. Maybe I'm not very susceptible to it. I'm prone to backing off before I give to the point that it feels like a sacrifice to me. I'm a fan of the expression: ":)rinking poison and expecting the other person to die." to describe such things.

I have a very dear friend... .who I didn't know was such a good friend until I called her about this three weeks ago... .but it is VERY heartening that in my darkest hour I made such an AMAZING choice to call her. Again, proof to me that when I choose for myself, I choose well!

She's been a lifeline, and she's expressed amazement at how far I've come in this time, and how much better I sound now than I did then. I've spoken with her nearly every day since then. If she was billing me for therapy, and this has better for me than any therapist I could imagine... .I'd owe her at least $4k and counting. And when I thank her, she says "My Pleasure."     And it really is helping her too with things she needs to work through, so I believe her.

What have I DONE to get over the hurt, anger, and resentment?

1. I've allowed myself to feel them when they come.

2. I've discovered that there are ways I can live my life that will be so much better for me that I'm getting excited about my future... .whether it is with or without my wife!

This is what happened to me, too. It shocked me, too. My ex wanted to reconnect. I ultimately said no (unless something major had changed for him) because I played it out in my head and realized that if I were sitting across from him, the feelings I used to have for him that permitted all that was so wonderful between us, were changed. I don't appreciate his choices and his choices were to turn away from me/us. So be it. I wish he hadn't made those choices but he did. It changes things. I can no longer put the same feelings on the table for him.

And I think ... .That's how it should be. If we want not to tip over the line into abuse.

Wow. What a morning!

Was up, sitting with my coffee... .writing a post here, even. In comes a text... .

Wife: Are u up?

At this point, I'm freaking out. I've just hit a really vulnerable place of growth regarding control battles between myself and my wife. Ack! Ack! Ack! I can't deal with her right now! (Freak out about appearing online on FB so she knows I'm ignoring her... .etc. etc. etc.)

I finish reply or two, and realize that it is time for my morning meditation. I've started within 15 minutes. After that, my phone rings. Of course it is her. Notice that I didn't set my meditation timer, fix that, and resume meditating.

Notice the voicemail isn't about any of the heavy stuff I can't address with her right now. It is probably about the personal business I was in touch with her over yesterday.

Text my friend for ~10 minute support call. She's up. I call. Whew. I needed that.

Thought about what I wanted to say in a text. Knew that I wanted to finish getting my bank account open first if I could before the conversation. Also knew that I wanted to work on the boat t his morning as there may be rain this afternoon.

Spent lots of time crafting this text response to the text & call... .Kept making it more active, more stating what I wanted, less leaving her room to decide what to do.

Me: I was meditating when you called. I'm busy this morning. Would you like to talk later in the day?

Wife: Yes, please call later.

Me: Will do.

This was amazing. I took something that had some really huge parts I couldn't handle... .and shoved those aside, and made it into a small thing. And made it about making my choices, and doing what I wanted. The HUGE fight was me against my old habits.

My wife wasn't even in this fight. She probably has no idea that it happened! She might not have even noticed the more active version of me. And it doesn't matter if she did or not.

I spent an hour and a half of major freak-out over something easily resolved in a minute. Wow.

Wow is right.

First off, congratulations.  

Sometimes I seriously wonder if the Universe provided me with my partner for the sole purpose of learning to do exactly what you described, because somewhere as a kid, I was so busy anxiously managing fragile adults that I completely missed the memo that I had a right and a responsibility to (gently but firmly and w/out fanfare or explanations) attend to my own emotional needs and my own well being.  (And to let others do the same w/out interference)

 

Thank you!


Yeah, I know the feeling. We do somehow end up absolutely stuck facing this sort of stuff. I can't decide whether it is a 'gift' from the Universe... .or some emotional equivalent of the laws of physics that ensure we will create this sort of thing we need out of the people we have available to do it with.

Either way we find ourselves in that 'perfect' situation, and when we are ready for the growth, we understand exactly how it is 'perfect' for us.

:'( I'm still hoping that my wife is finding her 'perfect' situation in me in a way that we can go forth together from this. I'm afraid she won't.

I'm feeling pretty tender and open toward her right now. I've got a personal business conversation with her soon, when she calls me back. I'm not feeling that energy of fiery certainty that I cannot take her back while she's cheating.

If our conversation goes into stuff about cheating, I know I will need to end it for today. Even without that fire, I know that there will be a simmering stew of hurt and resentment starting to bubble up in me, and a future of conflict between us. And I'm pretty sure that fire will be back whether I want it or not. I've already set those boundaries to protect myself. I'll do it. Perhaps not quite as quickly as I will wish after I've ended the conversation, but I will.

Still, I don't want that wound re-opened today. Sigh.

I probably should stay away from all r/s issues other than the business ones--dividing up an initial chunk of our joint money so we each have something to live on for a while w/o involving the other. (I think I wrote a couple draft emails around this in this thread, but I never sent them.) I'm pretty sure she will agree that this is a good idea.

Very wise idea.  When we slow down, it is amazing what our wise minds can come up with. |iiii



Hmm, I do kind of challenge that her self hatred went away.  It sounds like she turned it inward and then is using other people to try and make herself feel better about herself.  She just stopped being abusive to you in other ways.  I believe cheating on one's spouse is a form of abuse.


Boy, do I identify with that!  It has taken dealing with my dBPDh for me to really delve into some aspects of my childhood and how they have shaped me, and then learning to behave and respond differently.  I had a very fragile mother and learned to take care of her needs over my own.

I'm not going to get in a fight with anybody about what is going on in my wife's head  :)

She did tell me that she let the self-hatred go and was able to love herself. I DID see the change in her at that time, and it was significant. Looking at her current behavior, I figure that either this shift was less complete than I thought, or shifted part-way back.

Whatever that shift was... .it sure didn't feel like going from painting me black to painting me white.

I can make noises about how cheating isn't quite the same as direct abuse. They are technicalities, and you are completely right at the deeper level. The significant difference is in what kind of boundary enforcement actions I can take against it.


Very wise idea.  When we slow down, it is amazing what our wise minds can come up with. |iiii[/quote]
The call went pretty well. We got through the personal business cleanly.

I didn't manage to stay away from relationship talk. It was tough, but not full of conflict. Mainly because we avoided the one area we have conflict over, though.

I did discover she had some thoughts about being on a 'break' from our r/s. I spoke to not feeling like I could do that for long. (days or weeks, not months). Although I might be able to live apart for months. (Actually I expect to for a few months, with possible visits at most.)

The part that is sucking my energy tonight is that if I measure by her actions, she wants the benefits of our long r/s and friendship... .without the kind of commitment I need in it. And the only way I can get out of this is to step back completely, likely permanently. I'll end up reducing my interactions with her to personal business and unwinding our joint stuff.  :'(

Been thinking more about that... .while meditating, I started rehearsing a conversation or writing a draft email in my head. This is a draft next email I'm not sure if I'll send or not... .

I know I'll give it a little time. I want to let some of the changes (separate money in individual accounts, etc.) settle in for a a few days first, at a minimum.

---

Dear Wife,

We have been very very close in so many ways for our marriage. Some of it was joyful and fantastic. Some of it was being enmeshed, and caused us both a lot of pain.

In the last month, I've moved away from you, both physically and emotionally. I've stepped back from the things I want in our marriage and the things I don't want in our marriage together.

The enmeshed part--I'm done with that. It won't be easy. My path forward will involve some stumbling, some clumsy flailing around which may smack you, two steps forward, one step back. As I go along, the way will become clearer and my step will become surer.

I expect you will want the same, and do the same. I think we will agree on these steps. I expect your choice and my choice of which step is a critical priority will differ. I don't expect significant conflicts with you over it. I do expect it to be uncomfortable for both of us to adjust to.

I'm clear where I'm going with that.

Then there is all the good things with being close to you. I don't want to give that up.

We keep reaching back for it and having these difficult but intimate conversations. After it is done, my heart sinks. I'm way back here at a distance. I don't have that closeness to you today that I had.

I'm way over here, half-way gone from you. In limbo. I've spent years in this sort of limbo, and I know how much it cost me. I won't live here. I won't even stay here long.

So pretty soon I will be taking steps away from this middle-ground limbo.

I can take steps back toward you. If I'm going to do that, I need you to take steps back toward me, and I've been clear about what they are.

I can take steps away from you. I'm reluctant to take the next step, as I fear I will never turn around once I do.

I can't 'take a break' from being married to you. I can either work on our marriage, or work on ending our marriage.

I've been clear, and I've told you what I need from you to reconcile. I cannot change what I need there. I do not want you to be the only one making hard choices to make our marriage work again. I do not recall you asking me for anything specific other than giving in on what I need.

I am willing to make tough choices and do hard things to change. I am not just willing, but nearly insistent that we re-negotiate how we live our lives together. As far as that goes, everything is on the table.

I need to tell you now that our marriage is rapidly running out of time.

Love,

Grey

Glad I wrote the letter. The feelings in it are right. I think I'll wait and try to do this one in person, instead. I'll have time to let the feelings settle in more.

We both migrate around a lot. Here's the situation for the next couple weeks: My sister lives in the same town as my wife's brother. She's flying in Friday, and helping her brother with some relatively minor surgery next Monday. She wants to stick around for a few days after, so will probably do Thanksgiving with her brother. (I don't know... .and don't know where she's going next after that either.)

It is a loong 1-day drive for me, or an easier 2-day drive, and I've got a old friend partway there who has a guest room available to me, I may stop both ways. I'll rent a car for a week, and spend most of it up there. If nothing else, I could use a hug from a real-live person, which isn't really available to me here. It will be good to spend a few days with my sister and her family.

Of course, I don't know if my wife will even see me. I doubt she's expecting this, but it isn't very out of character for me. (Well, except that I'm making the plans and choices on my own without her involvement!) I'm going to let her know sometime soon, probably before she flys, or at least immediately after.

I think it will be the right time for me to give her a last chance to work things out with me. I know I need to go forward, either toward her or away from her. I feel better about doing it in person. I don't think it will be too late for me.

|iiii

I agree that those sentiments would be best delivered in person.

And another strange morning. A cold one, I'm huddled under blankets. I wake up just a little before my alarm goes off.

I realize I just had a dream where I was at a some sort of small party with my wife, and she decided to have sex with a mutual friend of ours (incidentally one I think she's highly unlikely to have any interest like that in)... .and the last part I remember is getting a bit weepy and starting to wander around, thinking about banging my head on a wall, and thinking about talking to one of the friends at the party in my distress. (In my dream, I knew what crowd of friends it was, but remember not thinking of them as individual people... .so I didn't know who I would talk to.)

I don't normally wake up with vaguely coherent memories from dreams, and this one wasn't VIVID, but at least stuck this long.

And I'd heard the text message sound last night, after I was in bed... .

Wife: "There's something I would like to tell you. Are you still up? If so, call me. Please. Thank you."

Sometimes, life is ambiguous... .other times it is kinda opaque. I guess I'll learn more when we talk.

Grey Kitty,

For something as important as possibly the end of your marriage, for me seeing, being with and talking to your wife in person is absolutely the right way forward now.

Working through all the points, nuances and issues that have occurred for you from the start of all this is always right for here.

It seems as though the dream may hold some very significant feelings for you around the 'open' marriage that you and your wife had. It is not my place to offer my interpretations about your dream, I hope you are able to spend some time with it. For me dreams reflect blocked parts of our unconscious selves that stay with us because they are important.

That you have so honestly journaled your emotional processes through all of this across all the boards has been a very humbling experience for me to be part of. 

I've never been one to believe my dreams have Meaning, what with capitol letters and all. I can sometimes guess where my subconscious pulled some of the things from. Other times not so much.

When I remember them, like this, the significance I find is in the feelings they bring up.

In this case... .I've been thinking about my side of the conflict over my wife's cheating. Seeing some areas where I'm not doing everything right. Seeing where I am being inflexible. And yes, there is room for me to work on some of that.

Despite this... .my feelings about this cheating aren't going to go away. My wife probably will try to weasel around and look for a way to reconcile with me that doesn't involve giving up everything with this guy completely. I cannot live that way. Unless I check out from my feelings again, and I'm not willing to give that up.

Looking at myself, I also see the ways I'm TRYING so hard to find a way to reconcile with my wife, on her terms. I just keep looking for it. So far her actions have been clear. She isn't doing it on my terms (stop cheating!) I'm afraid of losing 20+ years of partnership and shared lives, a lot of shared friends, contact with her family, and a bit more financial security.

I am cutting my requirements down to the absolute bare minimum. I've realized that if she ACTs to cut contact with this guy, no strings attached, and says that she doesn't want to cheat on me again, that is enough.

I can accept that she may find herself unable to stop and ask for my consent before things start next time. If she can acknowledge this, and state that she is is working on it, that is enough. (I may have to leave if she fails again, but I'm willing to risk it)

I am open to re-negotiation of what we can do without consent from each other, what our marriage and commitment to each other really means. Not sure what I can offer, but I can have the conversation. I can only do this from a place of trust, not the place of letting her get away with cheating.

I don't want to toss offers like these to her. It may not be what she wants. It may not be enough. And it feels like chasing her and begging her.

If I'm going to take a step back toward her, I need her to take a step back toward me. The only ones that matter to me are the ones that make something right about violation when she stepped out.

GK--it makes total sense that you are scared to lose the shared life you have had with your wife. And I know very well that being scared to lose it can put a lot of pressure on us to compromise core values. I see that you're trying hard to see the difference between unnecessary defensiveness, which you think maybe you can reconsider, and shifting your boundaries around core values in order to prevent loss of the r/ship. The line there can be mighty blurry. I still go back and wonder whether the boundaries I drew that resulted in the end of our r/ship were ones I was willing to lose it for (each time, BTW, I conclude that they were. But I know how it feels to question that).

I'm wondering: when you say you might be OK if she gets involved with this guy again if she asks for your consent first: what is consent if you don't really have the free choice to not give it without losing the r/ship? I'm worries you would never feel you could say no. Then consent is a formality along the lines of "I really love you GK and I know this is going to hurt you but I'm doing it anyway ... .OK?"

She seems to be committed to resisting your attempts to control her with any conditions. You are committed to her showing you that she cares enough about you to step toward you, showing that you are the priority.

That's a fundamental contradiction right there.

Did you talk with her about whatever she texted about?

Nope. I'm not OK with that, and I know it.

I meant that I could consider a r/s where neither of us have to ask for consent first.

If she uses it to get back with this guy, I'm gone!

And no, haven't had the conversation yet. I replied, but she's busy with her day now.

I wonder if your dreaming mind isn't presenting you with the fundamental elements of your choice in a clearer way than your waking mind at this time.

I always dream a lot, and quite strange too.

The thing is, there is no logic in the dream plot.

What I've always felt useful is how I feel about the dream, mostly the feelings I had in the dream, right after I wake up.

For instance, I had a dream where I was mighty angry and screaming out everything I hated about (and to) dBPDxbf. Waking up with this sense of relief, first felt really good. And then guilt hit me. I usually try to stay in the dream emotion as long as i can to explore it a little.

Or, I had a dream about dating someone else, it actually happened last night. I really liked it, I was in bed with a guy I was supposed to meet through a dating app, and he was snuggeling up to me  .

Usually I wake up feeling the same kind of emotion as during the dream. I've noticed these are usally emotions I don't allow myself to feel during the day. The irrational storyline that actually led to that emotion doesn't mean squat to me.

And I finally did talk to my wife.

I'm noticing how much effort I am putting into my interactions with her. It is soo easy to fall back into patterns where I let her make all the decisions.

So I spend half an hour thinking about writing a 9-word text in response to a 20-word one.

And after she finally had a chance to call me, I figured out what it was about.

She was sharing that she was excited about her new wardrobe... .which was now all black, so everything matches, except for lots of colorful accessories.

And excited about this because it meant she could travel easily and more lightly, and wants to go all sorts of places like this.

|iiii I was able to express genuine excitement and enthusiasm for her joy in making new choices.

She noticed it as a change, and even commented on it.

It shouldn't be a big thing, but it may be. For my wife, the reason to leave me is that I don't do this... .and that I'm not letting her do things like this cheating. She wraps those two up together, and I don't.

I've showed her that I'm changing on one of those things. I won't change the other. I don't wrap them up together.

I'm glad I was able to do this today, before we see each other next week.

I'm amazed at how easy and natural my enthusiasm for her joys was.

---

I'm still feeling wiped out this evening. I think I'm starting to lose hope for my wife to get it, even when I talk to her face-to-face and openly.

Only allowing myself another week or so in limbo.  :'(

I only can say i'm so sorry for everything you are going through. I'm sad and devastated your wife doesn't seem to understand how valuable you are as a person. I wish you lot of strenght to go through all you are going through now.

*mod*

This thread has reached its post limit, and has been locked. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are encouraged to start a new thread to continue the conversation... .Thanks for understanding