Title: What is this? Post by: harbour on November 14, 2014, 02:03:20 PM I am totally confused!
Me and my partner have spent the last 12 days together until two and a half days ago (Wednesday morning here in DK). We were doing just fine, both being affectionate and feeling good. Until Tuesday evening, when he suddenly changed. Dark face, silent and distant. I became aware of it when I wanted to embrace him and I felt that he froze. Didn't even look at me. It was like touching a cold tree trunk. So I pulled back. Tried to start a conversation. But no. Nothing. I asked him if there was something wrong. No, he said, I'm just tired. Well I'm also sad, he said, but I don't know why. So I tried to talk to him about it asking and suggesting what it could be. But he just kept saying that he didn't know, and then he got up of the chair and said that he was going to bed, with this distant look on his face. He didn't look at me. He went to bed and switched of the light in the bedroom. So, shortly after I went to bed too. But I just couldn't sleep beside him with that distance between us. I don't think he was asleep, but he didn't move or utter a word. His eyes closed. So after some time I went into the living room to sleep on the sofa. I couldn't sleep there either, but at least I didn't have to be close to this block of ice. I fell asleep around 5 o clock. Two and a half hour later he woke me up, and I reached out my hand for him saying good morning. Then he pulled back and said that he was leaving. We had agreed that he would go home Wednesday morning for a few days. That is an agreement we have every week. But we always have breakfast together before he leaves. I asked him why he would leave now. It is Wednesday, and it is morning, he said. Goodbye, he said. Then I got really hurt, because I knew that he was not going to have breakfast with me before leaving. He had his coat on. I reacted in a not very constructive way, because I felt hurt and powerless. I didn't say goodbye. I just waved him away and turned my face away from him. I didn't hear anything from him until I pulled myself together and sent him a warm message early in the evening. Some hours later he responded with a warm message. We have communicated in a good way, but not about what happened. I won't start a conversation about that with sms'es. I prefer to do that face to face. Then tonight, about an hour ago I got a message from him about a woman, that he would like to be friends with. Together with a message to her. It goes like this. The first half line is for me. The rest is what he sent to her: "With the risk of making you upset (though you have no reason to, my love) I send you the following: L, my new and good, fine and wonderful friend(in)! I am so grateful and I like you SOO much - and have warm expectations for our incipient friendship ... .! I could easily become fascinated/captivated by you (I actually am in a way), so it is important for me to say how it is: I love "Harbour" whom I met last year and with whom I want to spend the rest of my life. She is the best that happened to me for many, many years - and I needed so much to meet such a fine and embracing understanding and mutual enrichment ... .Does that disappoint you, i wonder? Does it make you angry or sad - in this confusion of rival hunger and craving for intimacy and eroticism and love ... .? Or do you understand me - and still be a close and growing friend with me?" I sent him a message where I wrote: I am not upset, but who is L? He wrote that she was the woman who ignored me when she came over to say hello to him. I remember only vaguely. What is going on here? How do you read this? I am not very upset, but I am uneasy and a bit worried and a bit angry. I just can't make up my mind if I have a reason to be or if I am being too sensitive or paranoid. How would you feel about it if it was your partner? Title: Re: What is this? Post by: HardDaysNight on November 14, 2014, 04:17:19 PM This is coming from the US male perspective here.
I read this as a mind game. He acts in an odd and cold manner, and in light of this text he sent I'd say childish manner, then he asks you how you feel. I say childish as it is out of the blue and unnecessarily dramatic. Are you supposed to now fawn over him because of his distance and the new "competition?" It is also just very bizarre the message he sent to his friend, who communicates like that except for in TV and movie dramas? It's even more bizarre he shared it with you. He is certainly trying to communicate something but in a cryptic, passive and creepy way. Like I said, a mind game. Title: Re: What is this? Post by: Perdita on November 14, 2014, 04:19:49 PM Hi Harbour. See my reply to you in the Withholding Sex thread for more.
We were doing just fine, both being affectionate and feeling good. Until Tuesday evening, when he suddenly changed. Dark face, silent and distant. I became aware of it when I wanted to embrace him and I felt that he froze. Didn't even look at me. It was like touching a cold tree trunk. So I pulled back. Tried to start a conversation. But no. Nothing. The sudden mood changes are very hard to deal with. I've been on the receiving end of the behaviour your describe lots of times. It is very hurtful when the person you love freezes and shuts down when you show a bit of affection. He didn't look at me. He went to bed and switched of the light in the bedroom. So, shortly after I went to bed too. But I just couldn't sleep beside him with that distance between us. I don't think he was asleep, but he didn't move or utter a word. His eyes closed. So after some time I went into the living room to sleep on the sofa. I couldn't sleep there either, but at least I didn't have to be close to this block of ice. I fell asleep around 5 o clock. I understand completely. You can be right next to these guys, but they might as well be on the other side of the world when they turn this cold. Mine has never allowed me to fall asleep in his bed. Only once when we were away and that was cause there was only one bed. I've had far too many sleepless nights too. I think he pulled away and became distant because he is already having fantasies about this other woman and I guess you were getting in the way. What I mean by that is that he wanted time alone to have his silly dreams about how great she is. He couldn't concentrate on that and give you his attention at the same time. Afterall, he had already been paying a lot of attention to you and was affectionate. Now it was her turn. I've been involved with the BPD king of fantasies and idealization, so I speak from experience. :'( I sent him a message where I wrote: I am not upset, but who is L? He wrote that she was the woman who ignored me when she came over to say hello to him. I remember only vaguely. This I don't like. I was hoping for your sake that she's not interested in him, but when a woman ignores the woman a man is involved with . . . Sorry, but it sounds like she sees you as the competition. I could be wrong and I hope I am, but I don't trust this woman. What is going on here? How do you read this? I am not very upset, but I am uneasy and a bit worried and a bit angry. I just can't make up my mind if I have a reason to be or if I am being too sensitive or paranoid. How would you feel about it if it was your partner? No, you are not being too sensitive or paranoid. I would be bloody furious if I were in your shoes. Actually, we are kind of in the same boat. Mine's just deeper into the ocean and sinking. :'( As for his message. I find it very creepy and would be very uncomfortable if someone send something like that to me. Let's hope it creeps her out too, but I get the impression that she is already under his spell and probably think his message is wonderfully intense and deep. Title: Re: What is this? Post by: harbour on November 14, 2014, 05:30:08 PM Thank you so much for your replies! They help me see more clearly and feel a little stronger.
I suspect that he is playing games with me right now. He often sends me the messages he sends to other people. And yes, this behaviour seems very childish. I will not fawn over him. I don't feel the need to. I am more hurt and angry than worried. I have not answered his many messages for the last hours about how I am the best thing that ever happened to him etc. They don't really touch me. I can't think of anything to write to him. I'm just tired. Maybe he turned cold towards me because he has fantasies about her. But then why would he want to involve me in it? Does he a get a kick by imagining my worry and jealousy? Or is he trying to make me jealous to make sure that I still love/want him? I'm glad that you say that you would be furious if you were in my shoes. I feel I'm not alone. I don't know what to do next. In a situation like this I really doubt if I can deal with this relationship. There have been quite a few bad situations for the seven months we've been together. You're right. It is the hardest thing when he cuts me off and turns cold and distant just like that. I have read all the information on this site, and it is still a puzzle for me how I can set boundaries and act in a way not to worsen his condition and reactions. It is midnight here, so now I will go to sleep, and decide tomorrow what to do. He is worried and will probably send me lots of messages from early morning. Title: Re: What is this? Post by: Perdita on November 15, 2014, 03:22:33 AM Maybe he turned cold towards me because he has fantasies about her. But then why would he want to involve me in it? Does he a get a kick by imagining my worry and jealousy? Or is he trying to make me jealous to make sure that I still love/want him? It could be all of that. Only he knows. My hunch is that he told you because he considers it the fair and right thing to do. In other words, he is not carrying on behind your back. I know this doesn't make it OK, but you have to remember that they have a twisted sense of right and wrong and even that keeps changing. Have you asked him why he told you about all this? He is worried and will probably send me lots of messages from early morning. Mine does that when he is worried. Not lots of messages but more and they end with the word "love". He never does that when all is well. I actually think that if we analyze there messages closely over a period of time that we will pick up on little things that can tell you how worried they are on a scale from 1 - 10! Title: Re: What is this? Post by: harbour on November 15, 2014, 05:39:50 AM Perdita, I didn't ask him why he told me about it, but in a short message, that if this woman is in love with him, and he works on getting a close friendship with her, then he is playing with fire. He answered no, he was not playing with fire, because: "As you know I have just told her that it will be you and me for life! And I sent you a copy of my message to her; so I have put things straight ... ."
I haven't sent him any message since. That was last evening. He sent me a few messages later on. I believe that he considers it the right thing to do to be straight about it. But that doesn't make me less worried. I wish it did, but it doesn't. I get uncomfortable when I read his message to her, even though he tells her that he loves me. Maybe that is about my own issues about trust. I can't help thinking that if she is in love with him, which seems likely, she might hope and want to try to seduce him, sexually and/or emotionally. He can be very, very flirtatious with women, and they fall for him. My two sisters and my 85 year old mother were absolutely captivated by him almost at first sight. My brother doesn't like him at all. From the beginning of our relationship he told me that he falls in love with three out of four women. That made me uneasy, and I told him so. He got annoyed and said that it wasn't exactly how I thought, but that he adores women, is attracted to them and extremely fascinated by them. He talked so much about all the wonderful women he met and also about his former female partners as if he was still in love with them, that I felt I was drowning in them. I told him that I was tired of hearing about his deep fascination of all these women, and that as his female partner it was not interesting for me to hear about or talk about. Then he actually talked less about it. But he acts on this fascination, reaching out for them and trying to make friendships with them. After he met my two sisters for the first time he told me how attractive they were. I don't know if he is trying to make me jealous, or if he finds it hard to control that fascination. Maybe both. I don't know. Now about this new woman with whom he wants a "close friendship" I feel more vulnerable than usual, because he cut me off and went home without any sign of affection from him. Without any apparent reason. This was Wednesday morning, 4 days ago. I reached out for him Wednesday evening by sending him a warm message. He responded later with a warm message, and we continued this communication until he sent me that message last evening to and about this woman. I feel at a loss right now. I don't want to tell him what to do or not to do. And I never did. I can tell him how I feel about this, but we have been through this before, and he usually just gets annoyed about it. So what I am thinking is this: Take it or leave it/him. Title: Re: What is this? Post by: Perdita on November 15, 2014, 07:13:53 AM Perdita, I didn't ask him why he told me about it, but in a short message, that if this woman is in love with him, and he works on getting a close friendship with her, then he is playing with fire. He answered no, he was not playing with fire, because: "As you know I have just told her that it will be you and me for life! And I sent you a copy of my message to her; so I have put things straight ... ." Pretty much what I suspected. He is justifying the whole thing by being up front about it. Does that make it OK though? I agree with you that he is playing with fire, but it doesn't surprise me at all that he doesn't see it too. You can spell it our, draw a picture, whatever ... .once they start obsessing about something nothing seems to bring them back to reality. I think they need to bump their heads real hard before they even start to think about what it really is they are doing and the hurt and damage its inflicted. I haven't sent him any message since. That was last evening. He sent me a few messages later on. I have told mine so MANY MANY times about how he hurts me. I've written letters, talked nicely, gotten angry etc. Everything I can think of. Yet when I think about it, the only thing that really seems to get his attention is when I withdraw from him emotionally. I believe that he considers it the right thing to do to be straight about it. But that doesn't make me less worried. I wish it did, but it doesn't. I get uncomfortable when I read his message to her, even though he tells her that he loves me. That's OK, Harbour. Even I felt uncomfortable reading that message and I don't even have a horse in this race. Maybe that is about my own issues about trust. Harbour, the question is that even if you do have trust issues what is he doing to ease your mind about that? Saying he has "put things straight" isn't making you feel better (wouldn't make me feel better either) and a loving partner would care very much about that. I can't help thinking that if she is in love with him, which seems likely, she might hope and want to try to seduce him, sexually and/or emotionally. He can be very, very flirtatious with women, and they fall for him. My two sisters and my 85 year old mother were absolutely captivated by him almost at first sight. My brother doesn't like him at all. Sounds to me that he fancies himself a bit of a Casanova. More than anything I get the impression that he is in love with being in love. He quite possibly gets a high from it. He also seems to crave attention from women. As for your brother not liking him I always say that men and women really should take the opinions of the opposite sex more seriously when it comes to people. As a woman I am sure that you too have come across nasty selfish women who neverhteless fool all/most of the men around them into believing they are the best thing ever. We see this as early as our teenage years. If we tell the guys what we think, they immediately think we are "jealous" or such nonsense. The truth is that our judgment isn't clouded by hormones as theirs are. It is very telling to me that your brother doesn't like him. How do other men react to him? From the beginning of our relationship he told me that he falls in love with three out of four women. That made me uneasy, and I told him so. He got annoyed and said that it wasn't exactly how I thought, but that he adores women, is attracted to them and extremely fascinated by them. I think I am right about him being in love with love. I know there are a lot more treatment options for that nowadays. Unfortunately, he probably doesn't think that he has a problem. He talked so much about all the wonderful women he met and also about his former female partners as if he was still in love with them, that I felt I was drowning in them. Sounds like once he becomes attached it sticks forever and that obviously isn't a good thing for you - or him for that matter. I believe that I am dealing with the same thing. But he acts on this fascination, reaching out for them and trying to make friendships with them. After he met my two sisters for the first time he told me how attractive they were. I don't know if he is trying to make me jealous, or if he finds it hard to control that fascination. Maybe both. I don't know. My guess would be that he finds it hard to control. It sounds like an addiction. Mine gets his fix mostly from weed and risky physical activities. It seems to calm his brain It is not good though and they need to find better ways to deal with things. Once again, this can only come through theraphy, but neither you nor I can force that. Right now I am trying to figure out how I can get mine to go for therapy. I know his ex tried and failed in this regard. Now about this new woman with whom he wants a "close friendship" I feel more vulnerable than usual, because he cut me off and went home without any sign of affection from him. Without any apparent reason. Mine is the same. Runs hot and then suddenly cold. He drops me like a hot patatoe when his fantasy girl is in town. Last time she was here I decided to leave his place early in the evening because I couldn't stand being around her (they are under the same roof when she comes to town). He walked me out, made no eye contact, kept looking back at the house, then casually said "goodnight" to me while still looking back at the house. Then I watched as he RAN back inside the house without looking back at me. This stuff hurts. How can we not feel vulnerable? I feel at a loss right now. I don't want to tell him what to do or not to do. And I never did. I can tell him how I feel about this, but we have been through this before, and he usually just gets annoyed about it. So what I am thinking is this: Take it or leave it/him. Let me say again that I think he is addicted to love itself and only he can make the decision to go for help. Maybe someone here can give advice on how to go about discussing this with him (I could use the advice myself) It doesn't even matter if it is never sexual. Emotional affairs are far more damaging. That's why so many people can handle a partner who was sexually unfaithful, but not one caught up in an emotional affair. Ask me, I know. Last but not least: your feelings are valid. You are not being overly sensitive. Title: Re: What is this? Post by: harbour on November 15, 2014, 09:35:43 AM Perdika, I don't have much time at the moment, because I am having guests in a while. But I will get back to you later. I see that you have some of the same problems as I have. Your considerations and your sharing your own experience help me a lot to see more clearly and not being stuck in trying to find out only what I am doing wrong.
He sent me one message today. A message from her to him! She says: "As I promised I have been thinking about your message from yesterday. From a moral point of view I can not accept your proposal about friendship. I can foresee that there most probably will be tensions/problems from third part (I mean Harbour). I am not ready to run that risk." I don't like this at all! I have never even talked with this woman. This looks as if I am the bad guy here. Doesn't it? We haven't even talked about this. My only comment to his message last evening about her and to her was that if she is in love with him, he plays with fire. She has certainly got the impression that I could be trouble if they have a friendship. I am the problem. That is what I read. No words from him personally. Only her message. This is not fair. It makes me sick right now. I feel trapped. How can I respond to this? I don't feel the need to ... . Title: Re: What is this? Post by: Perdita on November 15, 2014, 09:54:51 AM I don't like this at all! I have never even talked with this woman. This looks as if I am the bad guy here. Doesn't it? We haven't even talked about this. My only comment to his message last evening about her and to her was that if she is in love with him, he plays with fire. She has certainly got the impression that I could be trouble if they have a friendship. I am the problem. That is what I read. No words from him personally. Only her message. It could be her way of getting rid of him. Or she is trying to make him choose as she wants to be #1. It is hard to say. This is not fair. It makes me sick right now. I feel trapped. How can I respond to this? I don't feel the need to ... . You are right: it's not fair. He is playing a very bizarre game. Don't respond if you don't want to. I don't see that you owe him a response. Maybe he wants you to say you won't be any "trouble". Like I said, don't respond if you don't want to. In fact, it is probably best not to say anything to him at this time. Try to enjoy being with your guests (as hard as that might be right now). Title: Re: What is this? Post by: thatwasthat on November 15, 2014, 12:59:00 PM just something I thought about when I read your story.
he's trying to make it look like he sets things straight. BUT. look at it that way: lets assume he was only interested in a friendship with this woman... .On her side there seems to be obviously more. if I was in the situation of being with someone and at the same time notice that a friend of mine shows more interest in me than just friendship... .the only way to go from everybody involved would be to cut it off completely. what sense would it make to do what he does? "she wants more but I sent her this text saying I love you and not her. so it will be a normal friendship, don't worry." Title: Re: What is this? Post by: harbour on November 15, 2014, 04:36:14 PM Perdika, maybe he is in love with being in love. That makes me wonder; if he is, how can a relationship with him develop and deepen? Sometimes, when we are together, I feel that it isn't me that he is in love with, but an image of something else. As if it isn't real. Other times it feels real. That is when he is relaxed.
He definitely craves attention from women. He likes to talk about his craving, and he believes that everybody has the same intense craving as he does. I say, that yes, we all have cravings, but we don't all spend so much energy to get attention from others. Yes, I have come across women who fool men to believe that they are the best thing. I think that these women do that because of their own craving for attention from men. My older sister is one of them. So your partner also alters between hot and cold. When you left his place early in the evening, because you didn't want to be there when his fantasy girl was there, did you tell him why you left? Did you talk to him about how you feel when he runs cold? It is true what you say about emotional affairs. But why do I find it so difficult to justify that it can be hurting and damaging? For how long have you been in your relationship? Therapy? Well, he has been in therapy for two years. I have only known him for about a year, so I don't know if he benefited from it. There is one thing I have been wondering about. I have been looking at other sites about BPD, and I have read that if you want to be and stay and survive in a relationship with a BPD, you have to be very strong. I don't think that I am that strong. That makes me wonder; To be strong you must function well, have a high self esteem, and be mentally healthy. Why would such a person invest himself in a BPD, and not in another healthy person? I am feeling miserable, and now I am the one who is craving. Craving for a proper talk with him and get this crisis solved. My stomach hurts. I am not good at withdrawing emotionally when I should. Title: Re: What is this? Post by: harbour on November 15, 2014, 04:38:18 PM Thatwasthat, You are right. It does not make sense what he did. I don't know what he has been thinking. He knows that I am vulnerable to his obsession with women, and he talks considerably less about it. So maybe he thought that it would make me less worried if he let me know that he told her that he loves me and wants friendship and not a relationship or love affair with her. And if he shows he is being honest with me. So why would he have anything with her if she is in love with him? Well, I don't think that he sees any problem with that. His limits are very different from mine. He himself can easily be friends with a woman he is in love with, he says. He would be grateful. And I know he would.
But still, I don't feel good about it. I am confused too. He had sent some loving and warm messages during the evening and night. He obviously wanted me to say that I still love him. I didn't answer them. I think that this is the first time that I didn't respond to his warm messages. I can't pretend that everything is fine. And now I feel guilty, that I have been unfair by not responding. Then he sent me that sms from her today. And I feel stuck. I feel ambivalent. Should I send him a message and tell him that I feel stuck until we can meet and talk about it? Or should I keep silent, and wait and see? I spend too much energy on this. Title: Re: What is this? Post by: thatwasthat on November 15, 2014, 04:53:21 PM Excerpt He sent me one message today. A message from her to him! She says: "As I promised I have been thinking about your message from yesterday. From a moral point of view I can not accept your proposal about friendship. I can foresee that there most probably will be tensions/problems from third part (I mean Harbour). I am not ready to run that risk." I don't like this at all! I have never even talked with this woman. This looks as if I am the bad guy here. Doesn't it? We haven't even talked about this. My only comment to his message last evening about her and to her was that if she is in love with him, he plays with fire. She has certainly got the impression that I could be trouble if they have a friendship. I am the problem. That is what I read. No words from him personally. Only her message. This is not fair. It makes me sick right now. I feel trapped. How can I respond to this? I don't feel the need to ... . Just caught this, had overlooked it earlier. Well... .I mean you can look at it either way. I wouldn't necessarily say that her text means she sees you personally as the problem, rather than the situation. Either way... .she's damn right. lol But in the end... .it doesn't really matter what she says or thinks. It's about you and him. She is interchangeable, it might be someone else if it isn't her. The problem, at least in my opinion, lays more within him and thinking this is a reasonable thing to do. It isn't fair. At all. Try to take a step back and look at it from the outside... .who would do that? It's beyond weird. And I think you don't have to answer anything to that if you don't feel like it or don't really now what to say. He can't expect a warm, loving text from you after confronting you with such a distressing situation. I'm sorry you have to go through this. Title: Re: What is this? Post by: harbour on November 15, 2014, 06:19:28 PM thatwasthat, I didn't mean what she was thinking, when I said: "I am the problem". I meant that HE was trying to communicate to me that I got in his way for this friendship with my "unreasonable jealousy". - See what you have done! - He was the one who sent me her message, not her. He forgets that he is the one who gave her the impression that I might create problems. Right? I have never communicated with that woman. Well, I don't know what he is trying to say to me with her message, nor with the first message, but it IS weird. I am glad that you find it weird too. I am so glad that I found this great site.
I am exhausted. I will go to sleep. It is passed midnight here. Title: Re: What is this? Post by: Perdita on November 16, 2014, 04:33:21 AM Sometimes, when we are together, I feel that it isn't me that he is in love with, but an image of something else. His fantasy perhaps? He definitely craves attention from women. He likes to talk about his craving, and he believes that everybody has the same intense craving as he does. I say, that yes, we all have cravings, but we don't all spend so much energy to get attention from others. Does any of what you say even seem to sink in a bit? Has he ever given any indication that he is thinking this over? So your partner also alters between hot and cold. When you left his place early in the evening, because you didn't want to be there when his fantasy girl was there, did you tell him why you left? Did you talk to him about how you feel when he runs cold? That happened back in June or July. Yes, I did talk to him about it and wrote a long letter. Useless. I might as well be talking to the walls. I can't recall him ever acknowledging my feelings on any of this. If his fantasy girl was this great person I would still understand it, but she has such an ugly heart and is so proud of how she uses people especially guys. It makes me feel that I must be nothing if he can think someone so nasty is special. < I've explained that to him and his only response was "Why is it your business?" It is true what you say about emotional affairs. But why do I find it so difficult to justify that it can be hurting and damaging? The emotional pain you are in right now says it all though. For how long have you been in your relationship? Heading towards 2 very long years. Therapy? Well, he has been in therapy for two years. I have only known him for about a year, so I don't know if he benefited from it. Is he still in therapy? It might be a good idea for you attend one of the sessions in the future if you chose to stay. Maybe he has improved thanks to therapy, but it doesn't seem to me like he has any control over his impulses. There is one thing I have been wondering about. I have been looking at other sites about BPD, and I have read that if you want to be and stay and survive in a relationship with a BPD, you have to be very strong. I don't think that I am that strong. That makes me wonder; To be strong you must function well, have a high self esteem, and be mentally healthy. Why would such a person invest himself in a BPD, and not in another healthy person? You make an excellent point. I've wondered about his myself. I am feeling miserable, and now I am the one who is craving. Craving for a proper talk with him and get this crisis solved. My stomach hurts. I am not good at withdrawing emotionally when I should. Neither am I, but Harbour, it gets to the point when the hurt is so deep that withdrawing comes natural. I feel this is where I'm at now. All I can really say is that I know how you are feeling. We all do here. The best thing you can do at this time is to keep posting and sharing otherwise it will eat away at you that much worse. BTW, after the latest incident with mine it felt like my stomach and intestines were turning in on themselves. So I do believe you when you say your stomach hurts. This emotional stuff does take its physical toll. I've barely had an appetite the past 4 days. Title: Re: What is this? Post by: harbour on November 16, 2014, 05:58:51 AM I can't find out how to insert quotes, like you do. So I'll just copy and insert.
Excerpt Does any of what you say even seem to sink in a bit? Has he ever given any indication that he is thinking this over?) I don't think so. But he once said that he was impressed that I seem to not bother if other people like me or not. Excerpt (That happened back in June or July. Yes, I did talk to him about it and wrote a long letter. Useless. I might as well be talking to the walls. I can't recall him ever acknowledging my feelings on any of this. If his fantasy girl was this great person I would still understand it, but she has such an ugly heart and is so proud of how she uses people especially guys. It makes me feel that I must be nothing if he can think someone so nasty is special. < I've explained that to him and his only response was "Why is it your business?" ) Well, you have a relationship, don't you? He is not in therapy any more. It ended in March this year. And he is not going for therapy again. He would never be able to afford it. Excerpt Neither am I, but Harbour, it gets to the point when the hurt is so deep that withdrawing comes natural. I feel this is where I'm at now. All I can really say is that I know how you are feeling. We all do here. The best thing you can do at this time is to keep posting and sharing otherwise it will eat away at you that much worse. BTW, after the latest incident with mine it felt like my stomach and intestines were turning in on themselves. So I do believe you when you say your stomach hurts. This emotional stuff does take its physical toll. I've barely had an appetite the past 4 days.< I've explained that to him and his only response was "Why is it your business?" shocked That is scary. Really! It sounds to me that it is about time that you start taking more care of yourself. I think I'm talking to both of us. Seriously! Title: Re: What is this? Post by: harbour on November 16, 2014, 07:30:35 AM I sent him a message, and his response didn't make me feel better or more convinced that this is going to work.
I told him why I had been silent and not answered his messages. That when there are some issues between us we need to talk about I find it hard to just put it aside until we can talk about it. And that I don't think it is a good idea to talk about it with sms. That I am sad and having a hard time, and still need some peace, but that I am feeling a bit better now. I told him that am looking forward to see him and talk with him. And then I ask him how he is. He sent me this message: "I am feeling calm and reflective. Considerably better than yesterday. I am as fond of you as always. I don't feel up to a difficult talk today - even though you might want to; not until you breathe, think and act with a light mind again" So ... .? A light mind again. I think that this means that he doesn't really want to talk about it. And that he will not talk to me unless I'm happy and being a good girl. How do you read it? Well, I can't live up to that. If I tried, there would be less of me.There is already. Such a relationship, where I am supposed to be only happy and fulfilling his needs only, is a very superficial relationship, as far as I can see. He has changed, or - have I changed? Title: Re: What is this? Post by: Perdita on November 16, 2014, 08:51:36 AM I sent him a message, and his response didn't make me feel better or more convinced that this is going to work. From my experience and from what I've seen on the boards, the way they respond more often than not does not make us feel better. Once they believe that they are in the right it becomes almost impossible to convince them otherwise or to at least try and put themselves in our shoes. I told him why I had been silent and not answered his messages. That when there are some issues between us we need to talk about I find it hard to just put it aside until we can talk about it. And that I don't think it is a good idea to talk about it with sms. All of this is reasonable. Trying to talk matters through via phone messages doesn't make sense to me either. Mine is a bit different in this regard. He avoids putting anything down in any form of writing. Probably afraid he'll get caught lying or that it will be used against him in some way. Face to face, wants to look me in the eye. Only when I agree and go see him, nothing is discussed and he avoids it all. That I am sad and having a hard time, and still need some peace, but that I am feeling a bit better now. I told him that am looking forward to see him and talk with him. And then I ask him how he is. I think you handled yourself well and you were honest and also showed concern for him. He sent me this message: "I am feeling calm and reflective. Considerably better than yesterday. I am as fond of you as always. I don't feel up to a difficult talk today - even though you might want to; not until you breathe, think and act with a light mind again" Hmm, OK. So ... .? A light mind again. I think that this means that he doesn't really want to talk about it. And that he will not talk to me unless I'm happy and being a good girl. How do you read it? I found the whole not until you breathe, think and act with a light mind again to be a bit condescending. He could have said it in a better way like "I know you are still upset. Let's talk things through when you are feeling better." I agree with you that he doesn't seem to want to talk about it. Probably because he has made his decision and isn't going to change his mind and therefore not going to bother dicussing it further with you. Well, I can't live up to that. If I tried, there would be less of me.There is already. Such a relationship, where I am supposed to be only happy and fulfilling his needs only, is a very superficial relationship, as far as I can see. He has changed, or - have I changed? I think you are being very honest with yourself and brave. Title: Re: What is this? Post by: harbour on November 16, 2014, 12:53:28 PM To be honest I don't think I am ready to see him for the next days. Maybe not until Friday. I really need to be alone. I am nervous about that talk we need to have, and I'm afraid that I will just let it pass. It may not be clever, but my experience with our "talks", when we have a conflict or an imbalance between us is that I end up in resignation after he persistently, stubbornly and sometimes angrily let me know that I am the impossible, over-sensitive, unreasonable, selfish one who is lying and playing games with him. And then he always says that he is making so much effort and I am doing nothing, that he always has to do the job for both of us. I don't think I can take that one more time.
That message from the woman with whom he wanted a friendship worries me. Not her, but the fact that he sent me that message to let me know that she has rejected him because of the obvious fact that there would be tensions/problems coming from me. If I am right in my suspicion, that he sent me that to make me feel bad about having destroyed his friendship with somebody he likes, or potential friendship, then I/we have a serious problem. I know of course that I didn't destroy that, but if he has decided that I have, then there is nothing I can do about it. Now I do not want to be in his way, not even if it is not true, if it is only in his mind. I don't know why I feel so terribly humiliated. I am not used to that feeling. Title: Re: What is this? Post by: ThanksForPlaying on November 16, 2014, 01:03:20 PM Without digging too far into the extended issues here, there's a frequent tendency for BPDs to become disregulated the day before a separation. This also frequently happens on Sundays, and the first and last days of vacations. Just saying the original coldness could have been from separation anxiety after 13 days. Sometimes it starts like that and spirals from there. I've had major convoluted arguments traced back to being disregulated on a Sunday... .
Title: Re: What is this? Post by: harbour on November 16, 2014, 02:32:41 PM Yes, his sudden coldness could be about separation anxiety. I have seen several times the last evening before we part that his mood changes. Sometimes this coldness and distance, sometimes anger. This time I was not good at handling it. I was feeling so good about these last 12 days, still enjoying being with him, when he suddenly became very cold. It was so frustrating and hurting that he left like that. Even though I am aware that it has got nothing to do with me personally, I can't help being hurt and very frustrated.
But it also happens at other times when we are going to stay together for several days. Sometimes he suddenly got annoyed and said that he would go home now, because he couldn't stand it. I never knew what he couldn't stand. It seemed to come out of the blue. I haven't found a way to deal with this. To adjust myself to it and accept that he suddenly turns his back on me. Or suddenly gets angry for no apparent reason. Emotionally I can't. I haven't talked to him about it. I have read somewhere that one must withdraw ones feelings in certain situations with a partner with BPD. for self protection, not allowing the feeling to overwhelm you. I have not yet learned to do that. Have any of you? Title: Re: What is this? Post by: Perdita on November 16, 2014, 03:04:34 PM To be honest I don't think I am ready to see him for the next days. Maybe not until Friday. I really need to be alone. That's OK. Do what you feel is right for you. You are still in shock and much too vulnerable to face him now. I am nervous about that talk we need to have, and I'm afraid that I will just let it pass. It may not be clever, but my experience with our "talks", when we have a conflict or an imbalance between us is that I end up in resignation after he persistently, stubbornly and sometimes angrily let me know that I am the impossible, over-sensitive, unreasonable, selfish one who is lying and playing games with him. And then he always says that he is making so much effort and I am doing nothing, that he always has to do the job for both of us. I don't think I can take that one more time. Taking blame is not something they do well at all. It is exhausting trying to get one's point of view across. All I ever wanted from mine was for him to understand how much his actions hurt me and to stop repeating them over and over again. I don't know why I feel so terribly humiliated. I am not used to that feeling. Hurt and humiliation is what I keep feeling in my situation too. When a third party is brought into a relationship in this way it is not surprising that humiliation will follow. He is the one that should feel ashamed though for doing this to you. This kind of thing doesn't happen in healthy relationships. Title: Re: What is this? Post by: harbour on November 16, 2014, 04:28:17 PM Excerpt Taking blame is not something they do well at all. It is exhausting trying to get one's point of view across. All I ever wanted from mine was for him to understand how much his actions hurt me and to stop repeating them over and over again. What does he say, when you try to tell him how his actions hurt you? Mine gets very angry. I am very aware not to use the word "you", when I explain to him how I feel. Until a few months ago I could get really scared, when he had an outburst. One time we were having dinner, he said that he had noticed that I sometimes became distant, as if I didn't really listen, when he talked about a certain subject, someone who was active in the resistance during World war 2. (It is one of his passions). He said that if I didn't want to hear about it, I should tell him. Cause then he would stop talking about it. So I said that I probably sometimes became distant, because I am not as interested in that subject as he is. And then I said something I should never had said: "And you do talk a lot about that subject, and so I am not always attentive, when you talk about it". Explosion! That was that dinner. He got furious, and it went on and on. My heart was pounding, while I was concentrating on keeping very calm. He shouted that he was fed up, that he couldn't breathe here, because he had to be so cautious of what he was saying, that there was too much of me and too little of him. I was astonished. Too little of him? I felt that it was the opposite. I daren't say that. I just said that I didn't see it that way. That made him more furious. I also said that I didn't expect him to be interested in all that I am interested in. Bigger explosion! He wrote every word of my last remark I had just said down on a piece of paper with huge letters, pointed at them aggressively and shouted: That is war! Look at it. That is war! Then I did not say more. His outbursts sometimes felt threatening. Since I talked to him about it a few months ago, telling him that I did not feel safe when he got so furious that he was about to lose control, he has not had any outburst like that. Excerpt Hurt and humiliation is what I keep feeling in my situation too. When a third party is brought into a relationship in this way it is not surprising that humiliation will follow. He is the one that should feel ashamed though for doing this to you. This kind of thing doesn't happen in healthy relationships. If we are going to talk about his messages concerning the woman with whom he wanted friendship I don't know how to cope. I know that he will say that he only wanted a friendship with her, and how could I be upset about that. If I ask him why he sent me those messages, since that was not necessary, he will say that he wanted to be honest with me, and that he don't see how I can become jealous about a friendship. I don't know. This is where I give up. Nothing good will come out of that talk. I know. I hope it works with the quotes. Title: Re: What is this? Post by: harbour on November 18, 2014, 12:16:08 PM Oh, give me strength to make myself get me out of here. I am stuck.
He came yesterday. We were supposed to talk about our resent incident. He behaved weird. My sister called me, and he came over and lied down with me on the couch with his head on my lab, caressing my hands and arms and kept on doing so during my 40 minutes long talk with my sister on the phone. Afterwards he said that his caressing me was meant to make me "caress" (be affectionate to) my sister on the phone, and he had noticed that I became more affectionate to her and showed her more care, when he caressed me. He has met her twice, and he often says that I should give my sister more attention and show her more affection. Me and my sister are close, and we talk fine together. So I asked why he is so concerned about me wanting to give her more care and attention. Because I don't give her that as much as she needs it, he said. And then he got furious saying that he had not dared look at her more than a minute (at my mothers birthday party). I asked why not. Because of YOU, he said. That I was on the alert. I just didn't get it. I was not. He shouted very angrily that I was small-minded towards my sister. That talking didn't make any sense to me. I stopped saying anything more, waiting for him to calm down. The rest of the evening he talked about his exercising in giving people attention and love ... . He is living in a world of his own. He wants me to live there too, but I'm afraid I can't. Today I woke him up shortly before noon. I had made breakfast. I lied down beside him and took his hands in mine. He asked me if I had things to do today. I said no, I had not planned anything. But I would like to get down to doing things like painting etc. He got up. We had breakfast. He said that maybe we should spend a little less time together. I said yes, I think we should, and try to stick to our agreement about being together 3 or 4 days a week. He then started talking about parting when we feel we need to withdraw and be alone. I said yes, I think we should do that and let each other do that when we need it. But, I said, could we agree to part in a good way when we part, so that we both feel good about each other when we are apart? He agreed. Then we talked about the incident Tuesday evening, where he became distant, and Wednesday morning when he woke me up and left. And how he was sad and angry because I had waved him away with my hand. I said that it was not ok that I did so. That I had acted spontaneously as I got hurt and angry when I realized that he would leave without having breakfast with me. I don't remember what triggered him, but after a while he got so furious, that I froze. I never ever say anything like "you did so or so, or that was wrong what you did". Never! Because I know that that will trigger his rage dramatically. No matter how I put it. Still, he had a very scary outburst of rage. Shouting the most terrible things. The things he said were so nasty that if one believed him, I would be an absolutely horrible and hopeless person, and one would wonder why the hell he wanted to be with such a b___. His rage lasted for an hour. Then he went to take on his shoes and jacket to leave. I went there and put my arms around him, and he pushed me away, saying that he would not put up with my behaviour. I reminded him about our agreement to part in a good way. He then obliged me, and we hugged. I said that I felt for him. And that I didn't want to hurt him. Then he got furious again, went to the kitchen, calmed a little down and talked for another 20 minutes about how I always wanted to be right. I was always right, could never do anything wrong. That I had to learn to do like him, who always reflects when I am angry (which I never dare to show, when I am, or even dare feel it), before he reacts, and his starting-point was always that if I was angry or the like, he thought that since I was a clever and warm human being, so I was probably right; and I should do the same, when he is angry. I never, never thought I could be wrong or do anything wrong, he said. I reminded him that I for example had just said today that it was wrong of me to wave him away like I did Wednesday morning. He got angry telling me not to interrupt him. I always interrupted him, he said. Don't talk until I have finished, he said. When he had finished his heartbreaking speech, he left without a hug or anything. I feel devastated. And very, very confused. He just sent me a message saying how much he loves me, I am the best thing that ever happened to him. And wants to spend the rest of his life with me - "in deep gratefulness, and fruitful joy ... .Open your wonderful Harbour mind, womb, soul and being towards your very craving, understanding and very effort striving man ... .Kiss from yours for life K." This relationship is sinking. I have no illusions that this will change. And I don't think I can or will live with this crazy roller-coaster. I don't think that I can avoid losing myself at length. I need to stop this. At the same time I don't feel certain that I can resist, if he breaks down in despair and begs me not to leave him. I am scared. We have a few invitations from some of his nice family members. He gave my 85 years old mother a gift for her birthday. She adores him (she doesn't know anything about his dark sides). The gift is a performance, a ballet, at the Royal Theatre, with him and me the evening before Christmas. We have invited her to spend Christmas with us here. She lives 3 hours by train from here. Right now he seems desperate or scared. He sends me messages about how much he loves me etc. And I know his anxiety will accelerate if I don't answer him. But I don't know what to say to him. I just don't know. He just sent me a message saying that potentially he doesn't care what I have with my sister. That he loves me, and that I seriously have to respect him; also when I feel hurt by him; by life and the world, and everybody and him ... . I don't know what to answer him. So I don't answer him. And then he gets more and more desperate. Every two minute he sends a message, and I have an urge to calm him down and ease his mind. But I don't know how. Because I am scared and feel absolutely powerless. I can't just say that everything is fine and we are going to have a nice and cosy and joyful December together. Because right now I don't know if I can take this any longer. I feel so sorry for him, and for the fact that we are living in two different worlds where we can't reach each other. Also I am a bit scared that he might harm me. He has been violent to some of his former female partners. I have known him for 8 months now. He had these outbursts against me a few times before, and one and a half month ago, when he was calm and we were talking, I told him that when he becomes so furious and rages against me, I don't feel safe. he seemed to take it seriously. We agreed that when he feels it coming up, he will leave. Well, he didn't this time. He never hit me or anything like that. But he seems out of control when he explodes. He never hit me or anything like that. But he seems out of control when he explodes. He has been taking antabuse for a few years. Well I realized that he hasn't taken it this week. He just called me a minute ago. He was very drunk. Asked me if he could come and sleep here or if he should go home. I said he should go home and sleep. |