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And I'm not sure what to do with it.

I've had to rewrite this post because it wasn't fit for the staying board :)

My anger is so strong right now and I'm just staying out out of her way, because if she starts her nonsense with me, I'm liable to absolutely explode about the damage she has done.

Let me put it this way. I've been reflecting on her and her parents influence in my and my children's life and I'm not coming up with any positives.

I'm going to see her family over Christmas and I've been fantasising about how to confront their corrosive, controlling, destructive, insidious, mentally insane behaviours.

I don't want her crazy family to have anything to do with my children, yet they will be there pretending nothing is wrong, and their family is perfect. Doting on and love bombing my children, showering them with presents and gifts. They've already told them how many ipods, clothes, presents they are going to buy them.         

Other than spoiling them with gifts (and I sense this is one way you may think they assert control?), are there really any other behaviors which may be causing problems with your children?

Yes, they managed to produce 6 children - my wife dBPD/NPD, #2 currently suicidal (my kids adore this one), #3 antisocial - i don't think i've seen her speak more than one sentence at one time (kids safe from this one), #4 BPD and cuts herself, also bulimic (kids adore this one too), #5 remarkably normal, #6 Narcissistic ("my clothes have feelings too" - kids adore this one).

All my kids talk about is seeing #2, #4, #6, I don't want my kids to have anything to do with them, and I haven't even mentioned the parents

That's indeed an extremely toxic mix. Joining them for Christmas certainly doesn't sound like fun., At the end of the day, short of getting full custody and cutting off contact with her family, how can you protect your kids when they are with you?

If the kids adore their aunts and uncle, there doesn't seem to be any immediate harm, other than over the long term that your kids might develop distorted perceptions on what's healthy. So that leaves your anger. Do you think you may not be able to keep control from not being snarky or something like that?

I've got nothing to tell you that you don't already know about how to behave around your wife and her FOO.

My suggestion on the anger is the really hard one I've given a few other people here. Try to sit with your anger, without acting. Obviously, do this in a safe time and place for yourself.

The more you stuff this anger, the more powerful it becomes and the more explosive it will be when it gets loose.

The more you sit with it, the more you will realize exactly which of your values are being trampled, and how, and eventually be able to channel the power in it toward actions which will defend your values.

And yes, this is REALLY REALLY REALLY hard work.

Turkish,  thanks for your response. You're a voice of reason whie I'm seeing red. Yes beyond becoming crazy role models for my kids there is no immediate danger.

The snarky comments are a very real possibility.  They are all very intelligent and very high functioning.  The facade is perfectly maintained during periods like Christmas. Well it's perfectly maintained all the time, except when one or two of them starts to act out and then all hell breaks loose. I've only seen that once and it scared the heck out of me. From my W I hear that was a regular occurrence growing up. But the public persona of a perfect family was maintained. They still all beleve that they are a perfect family. Even with all the issues. MIL began a public humiliation of me during the separation as "the cause of all her daughters problems" so there is a healthy amount of tension particularly between her (the queen dOCD, uBPD witch) and me a recovering enabler.

I do not want to cause a scene, it doesn't help me. Perhaps I should just be very busy and not be there? But I don't want to leave my children unattended with them. Catch 22.

Thanks GK. That helps phenomenally.  I recognize the passive aggressive coming out in me already. I will sit quietly today and try to work out which of my values are being trampled.

Remember the tools you have learned to deal with your wife--they will help with her FOO.

If you are triggered, you WILL make things worse. Somebody there is likely to try to push your buttons just because that is who they are, and you are challenging their feelings = facts = perfect family.

So try not to take things personally if you can. And be aware if you start to get triggered, and if you do, find a way to take a break or make yourself busy. Plan ahead and have your socially graceful 'escape routes' mapped out well in your head in case you need them.


|iiii Or just sit with whatever feelings come up. Anger sounds pretty likely. FYI, it is a secondary emotion, so once you sit through the anger, you are likely to find some other emotions hiding underneath it.

My experience is that the understanding of where my values are being crossed is a natural consequence of being with my feelings... .you won't have to look too hard for it.

GK. I tried really hard to just be with my feelings yesterday, but I couldn't make out the primary feelings. I'm quite analytical so perhaps I'm hardwired to analyzed things instead of feel them out. But the anger I felt quite strongly.  :)

One year ago I was numb during her dysregulations.  Felt nothing either way. So anger and it's recognition is something new in itself for me.

This morning she had a go. "For 14 years you have ... .". It didn't trigger me at all. I smiled through it and was able to validate her. She came back later and gave me a hug. The first in two months! Slow progress.

I so get this, my partners FOO is the same. But the most maddening thing is they think they are the model family, the benchmark that others aspire to... . My partner is the "ugly duckling" and they dont talk about "the problems" all she needs to do is get her act together and they she can be as successful as they are .

I have been through the endless scenarios of "saying something' and "putting them in their place" . But what good will it do escalating into FOO wars wont help anyone.

The answer we came up with is to make the week leading up to xmas our annual holiday away, returning on boxing day (its summer in Aus so thats feasible). That way we cant go to Xmas family get together. We dont have to do the big juggle with her family, my family, my kids with us, and their mum (my ex),We dont have all the week before xmas panic shopping. Holiday spots are quiet and cheap as everyone descends on them on boxing day as we are leaving. *)

Her FOO just think we have tall poppy syndrome and have a chip on our shoulder about being around people who are so sucessfull and have got their act together. lol

So while they are all busy throwing their facades at each other we're by the water throwing fishing lines at the fishes... so who's having the most "successful" Xmas?

This is not generously giving it is buying praise, and they are taking advance credits on it. Classic PD behavior.

Are these your kids relatives or are your kids from a previous RS?

 |iiii Great work not taking things personally, and being able to feel compassion and validate! Amazing results too!


I do the same sort of analytical things. This sort of practice is very difficult. (This advice is pretty much instructions for mindfulness meditation, without being labeled until now.)

When you try to be with your feelings, be gentle and patient with yourself. You cannot actually control which feelings you are experiencing, only whether you sit with them or avoid them. Knowing what might be on the map ahead of you is interesting, but analytical. (i.e. other emotions underneath the anger). You cannot rush this. This is like being a little kid who doesn't understand maps in the back seat on a 500 mile road trip. "Are we there yet?" (10 minutes later) "Are we there yet?"  :)

When it comes to feeling... .you will go through the experience of your anger, and you will feel it dissipate. Only after this will you start to feel stuff underneath.

You've done this once already... .you worked through the numbness to find the anger.

I'm a very analytical woman, while my husband is an extremely emotional man. I think this dynamic increases my analytical tendencies and sometimes I've felt like I don't have the luxury of feeling my feelings because I'm so busy responding to his drama queen crisis mode. (You can see the contempt in that sentence.)

I guess I'm starting to draw a boundary in that I'm telling myself "I don't give a sh!t what he's feeling right now because it will change in a half hour." It's an interesting experiment and I'm finding that if I don't respond to his drama, he has been giving it up.

Meanwhile it occurs to me that I've been neglecting my own feelings for so long, I don't even know what they are--beneath the anger that I'm feeling that he thinks his emotional needs are so much more important than mine, and I'm angry at myself too for going along with that idea. It stems from believing that I'm the strong one and he is a weak puddle of crazy self-obsessed overly-dramatic nonsense.

 

Best not to "confront" the behaviors in the FOO.

When interesting theories get put out there... .ask for further explanation... usually they will "hang themselves" with whacky explanations.

This is from point of view of worrying about your kids having whacky role models.  The whackier the story the less likely they will think of them as a roll model and more likely that they will think of them as eccentric relatives.

Then... .you will be fine. 

Everyone needs some "spice" in their family... .   :)

Kids have many influences and role models in their lives, and can recognise wacky when they see it, they just don't care.  "My aunt is nuts buts shes fun". It only becomes an issue when it is a dominant role model such as their parents.

Formflier.  How can I not? What do you think of the following?

I will be sending them a letter. Both my parents and hers cc'd that explains what I know about my children. That we have apologised to them (our children) for the damage the conflict has done to their self esteems. We have had Borderline, Narcissistic and Co dependent traits diagnosed by qualified Psychologists as being present in our family. These facts are indisputable.

By association our children are beginning to show evidence of these traits.

We have 5 years with D13, 8 years with D10 and 13 years with D5 before their personalities are formed and set at around 18 years of age. We cannot change what has been done, but we can change what we do from now on.

We have decided as a family to recover from these things. Our apology to the children means nothing if we don't change it. We accept that it is real and indisputable, and our goal is in two years for these traits to have been eliminated and replaced by healthy behaviours. We are determined to do this as a gift to ourselves and to our children.

We have embarked on a journey to a healthy family including Cognitive Behavioural Therapy and Dialectical Behavioural Therapy as well as family counselling.

Please support us in our efforts?

Moselle,

Maybe there is something here which I am missing, and I'm going to be blunt. Even if your 13 year old is wise beyond her years, how is sending a letter doing something for her, not to mention your 10 and 5 year olds? Is this to help them, or to help yourself? Age appropriate. Our chidlren need to be protected. They need to be mirrored, rather than them mirroring us and our feelings; that is, until they fully form their own identities.

It must be very painful to see your kids begin to exhibit BPD traits. I am going through this with S4 right now, and am trying my best to validate him. How can you work with your children yo valdate them without alienating them against their mom?

Moselle the advice given to me on this site and my worry that my gd will turn out like her BPD mother purely by association,  was to keep exposing her to "normal" non combative behavior.  My gd exhibited traits of her mother also- giant tantrums when she didn't get her own way,  moods and tried to push me once when she was being disciplined.  Thankfully 4 years later with lots of talking about our expectations,  seeing consequences when she chooses bad actions and being exposed to how we choose to deal with difficult situations she is losing those traits. Children do work it out and those positive role models do influence. We try not to bad mouth her mother,  difficult at times when we are the ones being painted black, she is telling blatant lies or sending abusive texts and saying f... .off. I too get angry however any anger or explanation is lost on a BPD person so I talk it out with a friend and try to move on.

It is a hard road getting there but rewarding when you see results.  Life for our gd is still hard and i personally don't think she will come out of it unscathed however as I said I think positive role models are winning over poor role models.   Good luck.

Thanks for being blunt :-) I do appreciate that. Re-Reading it leaves a bitter taste so I won't send it in that form. My objective is to bring this out into the open, not hidden in dark corners. I want to do it in a validating way, but also in a  way which let's them know there is a change towards health.  This is a letter by me AND my wife btw. She is very aware of her family's issues. She's the one who told me about most of it -it's comes out during her therapy. This is about saying "What was done is not OK. We are changing"

How to work with the kids, without invalidating mother? Involve her in the solution. We sat with our D13 when W was in a positive frame.  We discussed self esteem and W apologised for affecting D13's self esteem. We have a mediator helping us draft a parenting plan. I find it helps to have a 3rd voice of reason in establishing family norms and standards.  Then it's not all Moselle's plan.

When W goes bezerk at D13, I must admit that I get frustrated. The last time I decided not to invalidate W, but managed to distract her and get her out of the situation. I went back in and began to explain to D13 that what happened to her was not acceptable,  and planned how to respond next time. W then walked in on her own accord and apologised for her behaviour.

I'm learning as Formflier says. ":)on't validate the invalid", "Validate the valid"

 

Moselle,

Be very careful with a letter... I think this is better done in person.  Just like letters to a wife with BPD traits can bite you in the a@@... .a letter like this can well.

Yes... .you should shine light on this... .yes... you should let them know you are changing... yes it should be something your wife "leads" on .

But... you must be smart about this.

If you need some light in a room... and you flip the switch that goes from dark to full on light... everyone in the room covers their eyes... because the light hurts.  Not because of what the light shows.

Sometimes the change... .or the "light"... .is too bright.  If you used a dimmer switch... .and slowly turned it up... it would be much better.

You still get to shine the light... .but people most likely won't be as cranky because their eyes hurt.

A quick letter saying that you would like some private time to chat... .or go out to dinner privately... .is fine.  Leave the details to in person.

Practice this ahead of time... discuss in T ahead of time.  Stay away from accusing.  Focus on what they can do to help your family transition.

I look at a letter like this in the context of boundary enforcement vs. rule making:

"I will remove my children to protect them from bad behavior when it occurs" is very good boundary enforcement. No need to announce it, just DO it. If you need to do it preemptively, that's fine.

"You are doing this horrible ___ and messing up these children. Stop it!" is making a rule. The effect is more of provocation than protection.

Sending it to somebody else... ."These horrible people are hurting my kids. You have to help me stop them"  ... .That sounds like creating drama and spreading it around!

... .look at sending your letter, and ask yourself which one you are really doing... .and think about each individual recipient, and think about what good outcome is likely when they read the letter.



This discussion of shining light can miss something. Turning on a light *IS* important. It is fantastic work. There is a 'natural' next step after shining the light, which is pointing at the ugly stuff, and shouting about how horrible it is. This step is ... .err ... .much less helpful!

OK that makes alot of sense.  

I think it's best to leave Christmas for Christmas and deal with this in the new year. T involved, W involved

They will push my buttons. Either intentionally or not, so I will have some exit plans pre-arranged if I need them.  

I agree with F2F meetings, however my W will never attend a F2F meeting with them. She's terrified. I've tried before but she refused point blank.  The backlash from the parents is massive from this stuff. The last time W had a disagreement with them, the father got sick with pneumonia.  The whole family blamed W and said if he dies, it's her fault. Ridiculous guilting.

  Sounds like a great Christmas plan!      Enjoy what you can, and be prepared for the rest.


I'm not surprised at all about this. You are saying that your W does have some understanding of how messed up her FOO is, but doens't get all of it, and doesn't have the tools she needs to deal with it well. No surprise there--she's the one who sent you to these boards!

Here's an analogy for you; you've been on these boards a while, and are a welcoming ambassador; I'm sure you've seen lots of members dealing with their family members... .in many different ways.

When you welcome a lost, confused, desperate newbie, you may be completely aware how much they are contributing to their own misery, and see exactly what they could do to make everything work so much better for them. You don't expect them to immediately "get" all this, stand up strong and run with it. You offer them a lot of support and validation, with a few tips or tools to make things better. If they *still* don't seem to be getting it, you still support them. You accept that they are going to figure things out in their own way, and on their own time.

Your wife is like this with her FOO. With less self-awareness and less understanding of the dynamics than our newbies. And with her own mental disorder which makes things harder.

You can see exactly how toxic her FOO is to your W. Probably enmeshed and afraid. Probably lost in the FOG, herself. Be supportive. Be validating. Tread lightly with advice and suggestions.

And enforce excellent boundaries to protect your kids.

I would rephrase that to "we". 

Pre-plan this with your wife... .work on the "signals" you will give each other. 

I also I'm getting a vibe about putting this off... that "something" should be done. 

What is a baby step.  Not a full on family meeting... .but "something" that is in the right direction.

Maybe a 1 or 2 minute thing that you wife and you say to some of them in private... .say it... and move along. 

W is not what I would call co-operative with me at this point, and has stated that whatever is said will not include her. She's more likely to side with them - she's terrified of the punishment, but it's also a way to wield her isolation of me.  I'll try her again though.

We had a great comboned discussion with D13 today. GK's post about boundaries prompted it.

One boundary no shouting or raising voice to D13. If happens D13 withdraws. Another - I set W up for this one though LOL. No calling D13 from the bedroom.  She acts like the queen, calling her subjects to do various errands.  New boundary - If you want to speak to a child. Get up and go to them and have a conversation in a normal voice. It's called 'respect'.

Sounds like your wife is intimidated by her family and has been indoctrinated over the years to fit in with the family line. Maybe even abandonment issues is causing her to be afraid of being rejected by them by openly opposing them.

Many children of disordered families have little ability to stay strong against out of line family, no matter what they may say to you in private. To do so takes a great deal of self confidence in themselves. A life time of being invalidated leaves them incapable of it.

As a result even if your wife agrees with you she is terrified of you attempting to get FOO offside. It is an alien concept to her.

Your task is to make changes without creating a war zone, as that could further pressure you wife to take sides and ingrained fear of FOO could prevail. The very least is a huge amount of triangulation as she tries to play both sides, and stay a victim in all this

I suspect a similar conversation is coming in our household.  :)epending on emotional upset... .there is more of the queen calling her subjects in our house as well.  More upset... .more demanding they hurry to see her... .and my wife is the sole one that determines when the yelling is done.

Can you give more info on how this conversation went down?

Back to Christmas... .if you wife demands to go... .but refuses to discuss any preplanned response to abuse ... .then you may want to put boundary in place before the trip... and let her go alone.

Might be talking about two different things.

If you wife is refusing to have a serious "talk" with them... .then that is fine... .go anyway.

If your wife is alleging that all is well... no need for figuring out what constitutes a boundary... .then you are in a hard spot.  

And this is why it is important to get is straight in your head what is worth fighting for.  Most likely they are masters at sucking people into sideshow fights. 

Remember the earlier discussion about what is harmful... and what is "just" eccentric behavior that the kids will remember.

That is the part you have to get clear about ahead of time.

We're standing by to help with that... .

From the background already put forth here... .this is a lost battle. Even if your wife does agree to some sort of clean exit plan in advance, she will likely be too involved/afraid/whatever when her FOO starts going nuts.

Pre-planning solutions or contingencies with your wife is a good idea, even if she isn't open to much.

Being prepared to protect yourself and your children without her support is another plan you should make.

They are the best I've ever seen at hiding what really happens. And my guess is they will have had a family meeting already about being on "best behaviour" or "perfect" mode when I am around. I realise this was an unspoken  rule when I dated my wife too. The emotional chaos fransforms when a potential boyfriend/ stranger comes to the house. Everything goes perfectly. When they leave is when the claws come out.  Only a few times when they really lost control did they show the true colours to me.

And now that they know that I know, I think they' ll be in super mode to make me doubt that there's anything wrong. That I'm the one who's crazy. I'm likely not to be spoken to very much. I If I ask for a meeting it will be the usual interrogation about what business deals I have and how much of the "folding stuff" I'm going to make. I'm not going to answer this time and the father will start rambling on about the weather, dogs, the government, any recent divorces,  who has died blah blah blah. Until I start talking about the real business.  They will then think of things to say that make it my fault.  Go for the invalidating responses and tell me that it's my fault and that there's nothing wrong with W. The father then starts giving me advice on how to be a good husband and father. After all they're the perfect parents. This is my experience from previous meeting s I've had with theM when I was seriously co-dep and trying to convince  them of W's BPD.  I'm very over that tendency now and I want to change the focus to "This is how we are raising our children. This is why we are changing our parenting styles. Respect that"

Re the queen discussion. I walked in to our room and said 'I'd like to talk about D13, are you up for that? She lit up actually. And i started to discuss what we could do to help her self esteem. It was a bit of a set up I must admit, prompted by GK's commen.t about getting boundaries set up with the children.  She then summonsed D13 in the usual manner of shouting for her. and I decided that would be one of the boundaries.  We had a good open chat about how she is doing and what we're doing as parents. At the end I said  I'd like to agree a few things between us. 1. No shouting at D13 ever when things go wrong ... .agreed... .and then I said oh there's one more.  No more calling D13 to the bedroom to run errands for us. If we want to speak to her we get up go to her and speak in a normal tone. At this point W was waving her hands and giving me all sorts of faces to stop me talking about it. LOL. But it was too late D13 loved the idea of not being  shouted for and said. Dad thats a great idea.  We shook hands and the two boundaries have been set. :-)

 

I love sneak attacks... .nice work Moselle... .!   

Sounds good I have the same calling out from the other room issue. soo how are you going to enforce this boundary next time she yells out? What about when you are not there?

Good question.  The kids have watched me not respond if she calls for me. I suppose that's hard for them to do, with the possibility/probability of emotional punishment when they ignore her.

I've realised it takes time to change a family culture and I try model boundary defense with them.

I've taught the older two: "ACTION, FEEL, LIKE, NEED"

When you do... .ACTION,

I FEEL... .

I would LIKE... .

Or I will NEED to... .

 

First blush:

Kids ignoring Mom is not a good thing.  Kids responding to mom's harsh demands is not a good thing either.

I think this area needs some focus... by you and the kids.

My gut says that the kids should politely comply... .not rush... .but make sure they do what is asked... .and then discuss with you both at a later time... .preferably same day.

You don't want to get in a game of telephone... .get all the players in same room... .later... and hash this out.

Again... this is tricky.  You don't want to teach a teenager to be disobedient... .they can also come across as "lippy" when trying to talk to parents... .

|iiii GREAT JOB!

I do feel the obligation to hammer in on one 'little' detail. I find that these details really do matter, and if not to you, perhaps to somebody else reading. Likely you already 'get' my point and I'm reading more (or less) into your language than is there.

Those two things are either rules (for your W to obey) or agreements (that your wife made, even if she was backed into it).

When it comes to protecting your daughter from her, YOU are still responsible for enforcing the boundaries.

Agreement or not, your wife may well 'forget' and try yelling for D13 across the house, or shout at her when a conflict gets her upset. Make sure you are clear about what actions you can and will take under these circumstances!

And... for benefit of those reading... .the reason several of us are really focusing here... .is the difference in a rule, agreement, and boundary.

Enforcing your own boundary is relatively simple... .you get up and walk out (one possible solution).

Once you start involving and coordinating other people... .it gets exponentially more complicated... .  exponentially!

This is why it is needs to be clear in "your own" head first... .we can help work through what if scenarios on here.

Then you work through them with d13.

Then... .eventually you will be tested

In my particular case i have found enacting a boundary first, then after stating it is a boundary and why, worked better than prediscussing it, as that in itself meant she started to "work around it', so when the issue came up it was always a deviation on it in an attempt to circumnavigate it. It also provoked "victim" stance

By demonstrating it first showed I was serious.

It is different for everyone though

Moselle, I can really relate to your situation on so many levels. The holidays are difficult much rage is focused on the short comings of my parents by my uBPDw, has called and told them they will not be welcome at holidays.  I've decided to attend her family gathering and with her and D 13 for a while and leave to spend sometime with my parents as well as they would otherwise be alone for the holiday. I'm sure this will cause much angst with her and her family but I'll try not to be bothered by it and make the best of the situation.

Right now I am also trying to focus on how to help my D 13 cope with uBPDw who yells at her more than she talks to he. And consistently tells her she is the child and is not entitled to an opinion. W feels she is just to do what she is told and not question anything. Every time I confront her on the subject it turns into a war.

D who is an only child has resorted to staying in her room instead of dealing with the conflicts. I on the fence about her staying in her room since she is alone. All she seems to do is text her friends. but rarely asks to have anyone over or go out with friends. She has said that she doesn't ask friends over because she's not sure how W will be acting... I've encouraged her to become more active in after school activities in hopes that she will become more outgoing. Teachers tell me she is very social at school so I'm hoping that the conditions at home haven't damaged he to much...

This thread has helped me understand  how others are dealing with similar situations.

Waverider,

Can you give us an example... .?

Any chance you have a situation where you had to take action due to FOO... .?  That might apply to this thread...

I've had boundaries for 10 months now, so though simple, I'm still learning how to do it for me.

Add a teenager with BPD traits to a BPD/NPDw, and I agree, it's a toxic soup with exponential complexity.

How is it done?

Very carefully... .*)

My partner has an obsession with calling her family, especially her mum, seeking validation, sympathy or a hand out. She gets non of these, each time she gets invalidated, has a melt down and I have to pick up the pieces. This can reach a peak when we go away for a few days, it can ruin the entire trip. I deliberately left her charger behind, and as her phone is never fully charged means she had to ration her calls. Did this twice before stating why.

She now accepts that she can't take her charger when we go away as she can't be trusted not to keep calling her mum. She can make all the promises in the world but if the opportunity is there she will do it.

She tells her therapists that her mums keeps calling her and is abusive and bullying. Her phone log shows nearly all the calls as outgoing. She constantly asks mums advice. mum is "Logic Woman", tells her what to do. Not what partner wants to hear, goes into bullied victim mode complaining mum is always trying to control her and telling her what to do. Its almost like watching self harming.

Boundary= I will not have my break away ruined by toxic FOO interactions

Action= Limit the means for this to happen

OK, so a few times now,  I've been caught in the middle of a BPD catfight between my W and my D13.

I realise that I have no idea how to protect the kids from ther mother's behaviour. I never dreamed I would be saying that, but it's true.  

When I talk about behaviours that are not acceptable and even hint that they are by the mother, D13 picks it up immediately and says something like " There you go again - talking about mom"

Is there a way to talk to kids about a BPD spouse that doesn't sound invalidating?

Waverider sorry to hear that your MIL plays such an invasive role in your life. I've noticed that as I detach from our enmeshment, mine communicates with her mother more. It's almost as if her current source of supply is no longer sufficient and she needs to go back to her original attachment for more supply, and the message she hears from MIL is that "There is nothing wrong with you. It is all Moselle"

What your wife says to her mother will be highly twisted to prompt that. This is the sort of dynamic that leads to triangulation. Which is very difficult to deal with. The MIL in my case only has such a toxic influence because my partner keeps inviting her in.

Better a dysfunctional family that has little to do with each than one that tries to pretend they are the solid model family


.

I went through this when my partners behavior was toxic to everyone else in the family, thank god that has now past. I had no idea either, everything I did, or didn't do, seemed to make it worse. It is a guilt that I find hard to put behind me. I brought my kids into this RS and couldn't protect them. If it wasn't for bpdfamily.com then the reality would'nt have been possible to get through either. Now my partner is only toxic towards herself

D10 used this communication tool this morning with her mother when she was speaking abusively towards her. She was careful to do it in my presence so she would have back up, and W responded well to it. Saying sorry and giving her a kiss.

I was so proud of her!

That's quite an achievement - that she's not toxic towards the rest of the family! Is that a function of the rest of the family putting in effective boundaries,  or a general improvement in your partner's behaviour?

Sorry to hear she's still toxic to herself. That's tough to witness.

Regarding children, I just found this in "The Lessons". It seems that unless he mother decides to change herself, the children are certain to be adversely affected socially and emotionally.

It has been found that a mother with BPD’s maladaptive childhood attachment status is passed down to the next generation through the replication of the unresolved trauma in the mother’s life (for a discussion of the extent of transmission, see Crandell et al., 1997; Crandell et al., 2003; Van IJzendoorn, 1995). In fact, the manner in which a mother reflects on past trauma in her own life is related to the quality of the relationship between the mother and her own child (Crandell et al., 1997; Van IJzendoorn, 1995). The mother with BPD’s history of childhood trauma becomes replicated in her own family through the reproduction of a maladaptive family environment and explicit parenting behaviors. Feldman, Zelkowitz, Weiss, Vogel, Heyman, & Paris (1995) discovered that families of mothers with BPD, similar to the families of origin of mothers with BPD, were significantly less cohesive, less organized and marked overall by more instability than families without borderline pathology.

Due to the hard work I have done here, eventually reducing her defensiveness to the degree that we can talk about things and be on the same side. This reduced the defensive/denial stance. There was extreme toxic behavior on the back of alcohol issue and medication abuse.

She was long term diagnosed OCD with anxiety and panic disorders, so being aware of having mental issues was not a barrier, but still BPD was not accepted readily, mainly because it was a change from her entrenched label for herself.

This then followed by wanting to be 'fixed', but there is no quick fix. This spiraled into self harm and overdosing to try to get "the system" to do something. Being on the same side and identifying the disorder as "the third toxic party" in the RS, helped her identify and own the horrors she had subjected others to.

She is still low function with BPD thought patterns. There is a huge dose of neediness and victim playing, but she does not dump on me or the kids and is appreciative that we have stuck by her.

From my short journey the last 12 months, I recognise the hard work it must have taken to get there!

Mine is going in and out of denial about this.

When she has a moment of honesty, and tells me about one diagnosis or another, I put it in an email and send it to her. But the darkness closes soon enough and she reverts to the delusion.

The "third toxic party". Very clever!. Separating the person from the disdorder/s.

If you dont openly separate the disorder any criticism of the disordered behavior is a criticism of her, and she is bound to defend it. It can however, cause her to use it as an excuse "the disorder made me do it", but that is better than denying there is a problem altogether.

A pwBPD has no problem bonding with you whilst blaming and disliking a third party. Together you can triangulate the disorder lol

 

Interesting concept... .

It seems to me that the first key is for them to accept there is a "disorder"... or something wrong.

2nd... .that the disorder is a bit separate from them.

Maybe 3rd... .that you are on their side.

Am I close here... .?

Pretty much, step 1 is is more achievable if you can for yourself separate them from the disorder as then you wont be as confronting. Being confronting, as everyone they have ever know has been, is what has build such a strong defensive attitude.

Removing fear of attack is necessary to get anywhere near getting their finger off the nuke button

If I say the word "disorder" or "BPD" or "NPD", the nukes are already in the air before i've finished the sentence :)

What has worked for me is to tell her, "I love you, but not the 'chaos'". I've also had a benign response to "I love you, but I don't love some of the things you do and say".

I like the "bonding" part of this. But she's not engaging in any way until "You have earned my trust again"

No need for labels until either a T brings it up or it seems she is ready for it. Just acknowledgement that she she has "troubles" or "issues'" with her emotions. She will know she has. Think of acknowledging it rather than sounding like accusing or blaming for it

OK. I got to practice this in a very dramatic way today. She went BEZERK over a change of Christmas plans.  I needed to postpone the leaving date by two days. And she went stark raving, screaming mad. In front of the kids. Divorce,  expletives,  derogatory remarks about the male organ. It was the worst I have seen. And I've seen lots.

I got out the way and  suddenly remembered a trailer that needed picking up.

I came back 40 minutes later, and it set her off again,  so I figured recording her with my phone might temper her ( it has worked fairly well before) but this time it sent her into the stratosphere. 

The kids were crying. Etc etc etc.

After today,  I seriously question whether I am strong enough to do this. I think it's too big for me.

She is diagnosed with impulse control disorder,  eating disorder (I have this confirmed in writing by psychiatrist) obsessive disorder, General Anxiety Disorder (confirmed by her psychiatrist to me over the phone), Borderline traits and Narcissistic traits (confirmed by W in writing when she apologised for the physical abuse over 14 years)

Now she denies that she has any disorder.

I stated over and over through this nightmare of a day, that I separate her from the disorder.  That I love and care about her, but dislike the disorder. That I'm on her side. I validated her and complimented her. I think I might have validated the invalid too :-(

She said she wanted me to die today.  I realise that it's probably about how she's feeling about herself, but this is devastating!

The good news is she apologised to me and the children later, but this was a shocking one.

I hope she got the message about separating her from the disorder! !

Moselle, that is so awful!   

Do you have a strategy to separate yourself and the kids from a display like that in the future?

Do you think she's getting worse on a daily basis?

Are you all safe?

 

Thanks Cat. Its the first one like this since I attempted a reconciliation 2 months ago after 10 months apart so it really caught me by surprise.

The severity was actually brutal. 

During it the children were too scared to move for fear of retribution. She threatened to call the police if they left with me :-(

Ironically afterwards, W apologised,  and we agreed with the children and W that if it happened again, we were to leave the house with me and go for an ice cream. So we have plan for next time to get out before the damage is done.

I tried to separate her (who I love) from the disorder/s (which I really really don't) but now that it's over I feel brutalised.

I'm not really keen on more of this.

It's amazing how fast the ugliness can manifest seemingly out of nowhere with a pwBPD. Were there any signs such a blowup might be forthcoming? Has she been under more stress, other than typical holiday stuff? It's good you have agreed to an escape plan with you and the children. Is there a way that she can alert you in the future to her emotions spiraling out of control?

Good... .this actually is a step forward.

The kids saw it.  You responded well... .things calmed down.  We made a better plan for the future.

This will take hold with them... .won't fix everything... but it will show that these problems can be dealt with.

Also... what is the treatment scheme for your wife... .what is she doing to get better... .when she realizes she needs to get better.

Good job handling it.

Serious stuff too.

I'd recommend you go over to the divorce/custody board and describe this and ask for advice. Not because you want to do it... .but because if you HAVE to do it, you can better protect the children.

One recommendation I recall is always have a voice recorder going if you are with her. Sure the threat to record is of some use, but the evidence may save yourself or your kids later.

Thanks Formflier,

It was indeed an improvement. I was very calm through it, and it ended. She is definitely trying to be as difficult as possible, and with holding all intimacy.  She wants me to file for D to make this just go away for her. As you've said before, why give her what she wants?

GK,

Thanks.  Today's drama was fully recorded and now documented and downloaded.  There is no doubt she wants to take it down that route as an easier option. If she finally goes that way, today's evidence will be very difficult to justify.  It was ugly... .very very ugly.

Still, my choice is to stay.  If/when she opts for a healthy route, it will be a good day. But that choice is still hers to make. If she chooses it, it will be fully her choice. I choose to keep the family together.

And I have decided to be wherever my children are. Where they go, I go.

I realised today that my D10 and D5 have a chance. They followed me not her. Despite her attempts to bully them. 

I am concerned with D13. She's showing similar traits. 

 

Recordings... .my wife brought them up...   I did them for a while.  And I have the stored safely. 

They were very triggering for her. 

My recommendation is to not tell her you are doing this... just do it privately... .if you are going to do it.

And... unfortunately... it sounds like you should.

Make double sure you have some backups... .that she can't find

*mod*

This thread has reached its post limit, and has been closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are welcome to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .