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I am trying to keep things peaceful. The holidays have been pretty peaceful for the most part. A couple of things have come up for me that I would like to get some feedback or clarity on. My husband is off work until the second of January so we have been together day in and day out with a few exceptions. It is driving me crazy because if feels like everywhere I go, there he is.

1. I would like some kind of separation. I realize that I cannot make heads or tales out of anything as long as he is here all the time. I am not sure how to approach this with him. It feels like he is of the mindset that it has to be all or none. When I talk about separating or anything like that, he keeps bringing up the money issues. Yes, the money issues are real but he is not willing to work with me to find a solution. Even if he could just take a week or two and go somewhere to give me some space, I would feel better.

2. I am struggling with feelings of resentment. For years, he has not gotten me any presents for Christmases, birthdays, or anniversaries. This year, he got me some white pajamas. I hate them because they are white. I have never liked white clothing, especially when it is something that is intended for lounging around the house. I have four kids and I am always getting dirty and cleaning up messes. I tried to be appreciative and thank him but at the same time, I felt like, ":)o you even know me?" I did try to bring it up with him in a non-confrontational way. One of the things that I have tried to communicate with him is that I would like to see him put forth some effort and show that he knows me as a person. When I tried to talk to him, he said, "I did the best I could. That is all they had." I was perplexed. He went to ONE store, got whatever they had in stock, and is upset with me because I am not falling all over myself because "at least he got me a gift." He said that he had been thinking about it for weeks yet he took the kids out the day before Christmas, went to one store, and that is it. I feel like I am wrong for being upset. I feel like I should be happy because "it is the thought that counts". I didn't see a lot of thought in his gift. It felt like a last minute gift that was done out of obligation rather than because he really knows me.

3. How do I deal with things like him not remembering even the smallest stuff? It creates problems with the kids. For example, our daughter asked for some mashed potatoes. This particular daughter hates gravy. I don't know why, but she does. He got her mashed potatoes and drowned them in gravy. He took them to her. She took one look at them, quietly got up and took them to the kitchen and apologized and said, "I am not trying to be a jerk but I don't like gravy." He got so mad at her and yelled at her. It brought her to tears. I thought my daughter was trying to be really nice about the whole situation but he got ugly and yelled at HER because he made a mistake and forgot that she doesn't like gravy. I know it can be difficult to keep everyone's likes and dislikes straight but he will mess up and then get mad at us and rage at us. Those incidents are lessening to a small degree but it is difficult for me to navigate. I have started intervening and standing up for the kids more because I think he is out of line.

4. I am sick and tired of hearing his reports about how great he is doing. Yes, he is improving and making progress but I don't think his progress is as great as what he is seeing. One of our daughters made the remark, "I am going to pull a Dad and go sit on the computer and ignore everyone." MissyM gave me some great information about having him check in. Well, he did it ONE time using the format that we had agreed upon. Now, he will give updates but they are all about how great he is doing and little if any of it addresses his addiction or actual recovery. I feel like he is blowing smoke up my butt and trying to keep me confused.

5. I want out but I want to keep things as peaceful as possible while I figure it out. I tried to talk to him about it and he said, "I would love to set you and the kids free but we can't do it financially."

You bring up a lot of issues.

First the gift: I totally get how invalidating it is to receive a gift from your SO of many years that is "not you" and the thought that it was a last minute purchase doesn't help either.

My husband gave me a lovely gift of jewelry--also a last minute purchase. The problem was that it was an identical piece to something he gave me when we first married. The new piece is much nicer, but I have an emotional attachment to the old one and if I keep the new one, I won't wear the old one, which made me so sad, it brought me to tears, and I'm not an emotional person! The reason I like the old one so much is that we were totally in love then and the BPDH symptoms weren't obvious: translated--I was still painted white then.

Also that I almost never think to wear jewelry, being a farm and ranch hand kinda gal. So it's like thinking he wants me to be a different person. Last year one of the gifts he gave me was perfume, which simultaneously makes me laugh and makes me sad.

He asked me what I wanted for Christmas and what I told him was to get my car detailed.

So, by receiving a gift that is inappropriate, they are telling us they don't see us or they want us to be different--is how I interpret it--maybe I'm reading too much into it.

Regarding separation, the pwBPD tend to think in absolutes: all or nothing, no shades of grey.

Small stuff (remembering your daughter's preference for no gravy): My therapist talks about the "narcissistic wound" that people with personality disorders have. My take on it is that unless it impacts them somehow, it is not something that sticks in their memory banks. My husband can be so solitious of some preference a friend has if he wants their admiration. However, I've told him a thousand times to scrape off food before he puts dishes in the dishwasher and not to rinse them and leave the water running (we're still in a drought). When I've mentioned it again, which I've given up doing, his comment has been "it's so hard to remember."

On progress made: I bugged him for years about his excess drinking, but I don't do that anymore. He would get all huffy and tell me I didn't appreciate what great progress he was making.

I'd think, what progress? He's patting himself on the back for drinking a bottle and three quarters of wine instead of two bottles?

I think you nailed it Cat!

I am right there with you on the jewelry thing. Last year, he got me a pair of earrings after Christmas. And, he bought them with a gift card from work. First, I don't really wear jewelry. I wear cheap dollar store earrings from time to time but that is about it. So, for him to go from getting me nothing for years to getting me earrings was definitely a slap in the face. This year, the jammies had pretty much the same feel. It felt last minute and like he wants me to be somebody else. I am a rough and tumble kind of person. I don't do jewelry and I don't do light colors.

Really, the only gift I ever want is for my house to be cleaned. If him and the kids can't help me, then at least stay out of my way so I can do it myself. He did do a lot to help me clean this year. But, there was one point where my oldest and I joked a bit about how he had to go out and buy me something because getting off his computer to help me clean was too difficult.

Thanks for the reminder about no shades of grey.

That is a good point about them not remember things unless it impacts them. It has always been a big disconnect for me how he can remember the character names of his friends on his online games but he can't remember some small preference of me or one of the kids. He can remember the exact time of something going on in his game but he can't remember what to get at the store. He can remember all sorts of random crap that has meaning to him but he can't seem to remember a single thing that has any kind of meaning or relevance to me. It is so frustrating because he will say that he has a hard time remembering. He will say that he feels like he is losing his memory cause he forgets so much. He sounds so sad and upset by his forgetting. I sometimes have to laugh because it seems like he doesn't see his own inconsistencies. He can remember all of this other stuff that has to do with his online games but he can't remember to pay the bills.

Regarding inappropriate gifts:

To give some context about my personal style: as I've said before, I'm most comfortable being the ranch/farm hand that I am. So my typical attire is casual. I admire women who can make a statement with their clothes, who wear artsy jewelry, but I'd feel ridiculous dressing this way. I typically buy work clothes that can hold up to dirt, animal wrangling and repeated washings.

So I was quite surprised when I received a necklace from my husband that was an American Indian-made four inch tall mother-of-pearl Thunderbird, with turquoise and coral inlay design. As an art piece, it was stunning, other than it looked like plastic. But it was so ludicrous as a gift for me, who doesn't want to draw attention to herself, that I almost laughed. I know he paid a lot of money for it, and I also knew that I'd never wear it. So I bit the bullet and told him that it wasn't me and that he should return it.

He was really disappointed, almost mad (maybe he was mad and he concealed it a bit), and in disbelief that I wouldn't like and appreciate such an incredible piece of art.

We talked about this issue in couple's therapy.  I am trying to respond with, "This was just an accident, everyone has accidents and no one is to blame."  My dBPDh was raised in a very shaming environment and any mistake was met with harsh criticism.  So he reacts with defensive rage when he feels shame.   So the key is for me not to react while he is feeling intense shame.  We can talk about it later but not at that time.

I find that I have to get him to stop the raging. To leave a 10 year old girl in tears because HE got mad at her because she doesn't like gravy is ludicrous in my opinion. I have started intervening and putting him in his place like a child. It is totally inexcusable to yell and scream at a child because she doesn't like gravy and never has. Maybe some people think it is okay to treat children like this, but I don't. I refuse to allow my child to be yelled and screamed at because Dad didn't listen or forgot.

I don't have to talk to him about it in the moment but I have decided that I am not going to allow him to continue to treat the kids like this. He is doing way too much damage to them and me standing by and doing nothing doesn't help them and simply perpetuates the cycle of shame. Why should my daughter feel guilty or ashamed or afraid because she doesn't like gravy?

And this is how I have always handled it.  I am trying to handle it in a different way, to step in physically and say something before my dBPDh gets to a full blown rage.  Of course, he is doing his part and shutting his mouth immediately.  I stepped in this weekend and said something not too kind and followed it up with something a bit kinder. My dBPh did stop talking immediately.  The goal is to get where he doesn't respond this way at all.  I also want to model for my children that they stand up for themselves in a kind and appropriate way.  I tend to not do it in as kind a way as I would like them to learn to do.  I am definitely not saying do not intervene.

For the longest time, I sat by kind of quietly and would go and quietly fix things without really saying anything to anybody. This time, my daughter took the plate to the kitchen and asked me to get her some more without gravy. I could see the fear in her. Before she even got sat down, he started his crap. She was hungry and just wanted some friggin' mashed potatoes. When he started his crap, I very firmly told him to stop it. I have been doing the same with the kids too. When any of them get out of line, I will very firmly and very loudly say "STOP". I am using the same tools with him that I use with the kids. He responds well to it but it doesn't feel right to me.

The problem is that my daughters will try to stand up for themselves in a kind and appropriate way but he will steam roll them. If I mess up and get them the wrong thing, they will say, "Mom, that isn't what I wanted." And, I will respond, "Oh no, I'm sorry. I got mixed up. Let me fix it." And life goes on. I have been watching things and trying to pay closer attention to what goes on around here. When he does something for the kids and they don't like it, I can see them brace themselves before saying anything. Sometimes they are polite to him but other times they are jerks to him because that is how he treats them. He is doing better at times but it is still infuriating because I can see that my kids don't feel emotionally safe when he is around.

I do understand.  Is your dBPDh open to talking about the issue with you later.  Is he doing anything to figure out why he responds that way and what he can do to stop himself?  Or is he still in the mode of pretending it isn't an issue?  Seems the further and further my dBPDh goes along in recovery, the more he is open to looking at these things.  It doesn't mean that he can change his thinking and behavior over night but he is more open to hearing about it.

He is becoming more open to discussing some things. We have talked a little about him forgetting stuff like the fact that I don't like white or that our daughter doesn't like gravy. I said something about not feeling like we are special to him. He made a very startling and disturbing admission. He said, "The only one that is special to me is me." And then he proceeded to talk about the girl that he was engaged to before me.   So, yes, he knows he has these issues and he says that he gets angry because he keeps messing up.

Frankly, there are times when I feel like my standards are too high. The bottom line is that I want more out of life than this. Is it selfish of me or completely unreasonable to want more than this?

Nope, not at all.

You're having to parent both your husband and your children--such an impossible position.

As the daughter of a mother with BPD, I was the target of her rages at times. My father tried to intervene on my behalf, but I spent more of the day around her alone, while he was at work, so there was only so much he could do.

I figured out really early that there was something wrong and I consciously studied TV shows with families to try to understand how "normal" families behaved. Even though I knew there was something "off" about my mom, it still hurt when she was angry with me.

It's such an unfair position that you're in, but it sounds like you're the one with the close relationship to the children and dad is the outsider and they get that.

 

Here's a good rule to enforce.  If you wouldn't let the neighbour's four year old act that way, don't let anyone else, including your husband.  The rule, house rule, is everyone deserves respect.  Period.  Dad is not above that rule.  You have a right to enforce this, because you are responsible for the safety of your children.  You did the right thing stepping in, and do it again.

oh my heart goes out to you, VC.  It's so hard to be a non.  I've heard some good advice passed around on this site.  Go Team Non.

Gotta go,

c.

Gift giving is as much about receiving praise/ approval as it is about giving.

As they dont differentiate past , present, and future. What worked in the past must work now, there is no evolutionary thought process, so it is easier to recash in on a previous success by repeating it. As you say no thought has gone into who you are now. They are stuck in a world of recycled thoughts and patterns of behavior in many ways, this is just another example.

This is particularly obvious with gifts for kid, they are often age inappropriate completely overlooking the fact they are now older.

So, here's my dilemma, Waverider: he has offered to exchange it for another piece of jewelry. Do I accept his offer or do I keep the original gift?

They know they messed up, they have been messing up their whjole life. They dont have the tools not to. They fear being picked up for messing up. As a result they are primed for defensiveness and denial. eg the issue with the gravy, he is trying to turn it away from him messing up and redirecting it onto your daughter for being, in his mind, rude and ungrateful. =Responsibility avoidance. He is not mindful of the effect on your daughter.

For anyone to constantly admit they stuff up is sole destroying especially if you dont seem to be able to avoid stuffing up. As long as he is internally focused (due to BPD) he will stuff up due to a lack of mindfulness of his environment and those around.

I had to chuckle at this as my mother is horrible at giving gifts. When my sisters and I were in our teens/early adult, she got us all matching pajamas as though we were 3 years old. I have told that story to my husband a lot over the years. I have shared it with my kids too. And what did he do? He got me friggin' white pajamas. When I asked him if he had heard me tell the story about how much I hated getting pajamas for Christmas, he said he didn't remember hearing that story? I know I need to let it go but, man, it still hurts and is a bit infuriating.

I wish he had given me gifts that he used to give me early on. He used to get me bath sets that I loved. One year, he printed up a bunch of coupons for silly stuff like a free foot rub or back rub or little things like that. It was awesome. On our first Valentine's together, he cooked me dinner and I bought a cheap little cake that had a plastic heart on it. He saved that and then the following year, he glued that plastic heart to a piece of paper and drew some stuff and wrote a sweet little note on it. He used to have it in him. What is even funnier is that on our first Christmas together 16 years ago, him and my dad went Christmas shopping together. He bought me a comforter set that year. My dad told him to get me something else to go with it because I should have something that is just for me and is something that I would like. He got me a bath set to go with the comforter. He used to speak fondly of that Christmas and for years he tried to get me something small like my dad recommended. Somewhere along the way, all of that changed and it is like he has no clue who I even am.

I am not into exchanging gifts, as then it becomes about materialism. Gifts are about the thought of the moment, that has past and can't be reclaimed. Having to take a gift back and exchange it creates a seed of resentment (smack in the face) for most of us. A pwBPD will lock that seed of criticism and resentment away and throw it back at you in future. Let him know and keep it, lessons are easier to learn if some face can be kept. Otherwise he will just put it down to you being ungrateful and there is no pleasing you, or even calling you materialistic

I am going to weigh in and say that it is up to you. Do you think you will ever wear the original gift? If not, then it might be better to have him exchange it. Of course, you might also want to think about how hurt he would be if he did exchange it. Sometimes, it is easier to keep it and keep the peace. I go through that whole thought process a lot of times. Is it better to have peace by NOT bringing something up or is it something that is important enough for me to say something about? I know that if I express an opinion too often, then I run the risk of him shutting down completely because he doesn't feel like he can do anything right.

Mine offered to exchange the pajamas for me but I opted to decline. The kids were with him when he got the pajamas and they helped him as much as they could. I don't want to hurt the kids' feelings. So, I will find a time to wear them and enjoy them. It isn't worth the hassle. There are so many other things that are way more important than this. But, I do know it feels a whole lot better to post about it and get some validation and let my feelings out without worrying about the potential fall out.

He no longer sees you as an investment (subject to impulse and need to impress, which is ultimately meeting his own needs=high motivator). You are now just an obligation (=low motivator)

I think this is precisely why I have lowered my standards to the point of not having any at all at times. I feel like I am impossible to please because I notice things that he messes up. I have kept a lot of it too myself over the years but it does lead to resentment on my part. I try to let him save face as often as possible but after a while it becomes a bit overwhelming because it feels like I am shutting up more often than not.

I have heard my husband say that he feels like I am impossible to please and that nothing is ever good enough for me. I can see why he would feel that way. From my perspective, I feel like I have to praise him and be thankful for every little thing he does or he will go pout or get upset and then not even try at all. I have heard him say "Why bother" more times than I can count. And when I say, "I want more", I can't help but feel selfish and demanding."

  :'( Ugggg! Reading this makes me sick at my stomach. You are right. And the sad thing is that I feel the same way about him. I feel like he is just an obligation. I guess that is why I can't comprehend his point of view. Even though, I see him as a bit of an obligation, I still know who he is and still try to take into account his likes and dislikes. I bought him a book that he had been wanting but kept making excuses for not buying. And, I got him two pair of slippers because he sometimes has a problem with his feet sweating. My thinking was that if I got him two pair, he could alternate between the two if one pair got damp from his sweaty feet. No matter how bad I feel about him or towards him, I still try my best to be as peaceful and as nice as possible. Sometimes, I fail miserably, but I still try.

Thanks, Waverider and Vortex. I'm such a blunt person that I miss the concept of "saving face." Yet another lesson I didn't learn having a BPD mother.

My goodness, I've lowered my standards too, Vortex. And I've been accused of being "impossible to please and that nothing is ever good enough for me" yet I think of myself as an easy-going person and people have often described me that way, just not my BPDh.

"I feel like I have to praise him and be thankful for every little thing he does or he will go pout or get upset and then not even try at all. I have heard him say "Why bother" more times than I can count." Oh, this is such a familiar refrain in my house.

I've been at this juncture too. However, I recently had a couple of days where I really enjoyed his company. But since his recent deregulation, he's been depressed, but a bit nicer after he freaked out that I was doing yoga and he thought I was ignoring him. It's hard to be exited about being married to a depressed person.

You are like two leaky ships slowly sinking. You are aware  of this and continue to patch the leaks to stay as dry as possible until you reach a safe place. He knows his is leaking but wont take responsibility for patching it so he is just sulking, blaming everyone else until his ship goes down and he will blame you for not rescuing him.

Climbing aboard his leaky ship will cause you to drown also.

Making do and repairing things is not a BPD trait.

This reminds of something he did today. He has been playing on his computer most of the day. At one point, he came over to the part of the room where I was and started talking to me. I was in the middle of typing something. I didn't say anything but did try to acknowledge that I had heard him. He tells me, "I come over here to try to connect with you and I get nothing." Um, it makes me so bleeping angry that he can ignore me all day and play his game yet when HE wants to connect I am supposed to stop what I am doing and talk to him.

In all honesty, I haven't enjoyed my husband's company in a long time. I feel like the only thing we talk about is our relationship or HIS recovery and how great he is doing.

I think I am feeling sad and depressed right now because it is the end of the year and I am thinking about resolutions and things that I would like to see be different for the new year. All I can think of is that I can't think that far ahead. I have to take things one day at a time and try to do my best to keep the peace. I feel so hopeless. I have spent another year going through the motions and worrying about somebody that doesn't seem to give a rat's patooty about me. I know that seems a bit extreme and melodramatic but that is how I am feeling right now.

Excellent analogy!

I guess that might be part of the reason that I sometime feel like I am the one with BPD. I have gotten to the point where I think things are beyond repair and I just want to find a way to keep things peaceful until I can find a safe place to drop the anchor. It is one day at a time. I feel like I am in a sinking ship at night and I am trying to find the beacon from the light house while patching holes.

Oh wow I love this one. Thank you for the simple but profound guideline.

My therapist's words about the narcissistic wound keep echoing in my head. They are so self-absorbed and really don't put much energy into others unless there is something to be gained from the interaction. Like Waverider said, we are obligations, not investments. The question is how to make ourselves into investments again and do we want to do that? In your case, it sounds like you're so burned out, you're just waiting to jump ship.

And really, why should we have to jump through hoops to make ourselves valuable in the relationship again. It's almost like some article in some women's magazine: "Make yourself alluring so that he only has eyes for you."    

I'm trying to figure out a way to be true to myself, not hurt his feelings, put up with all the dysfunctional behavior, not feel terribly disappointed that he's not the man I thought I had married, and as you have said, take one day at a time.

That is really disturbing to me and somehow chilling.  In recovery my dBPDh would say something like that is a huge character defect for me, that I only think of myself as special and I am working on it.

It was very unsettling. He did go on to catch himself and say that he wanted to change and not be so self centered. I don't know if he is actually going to do anything with that acknowledgement though. In my opinion, his recovery seems to be making him even more self centered. I realize that my perspective may be skewed and that I may not be patient enough but my gut says that it isn't really helping.

His therapist gave him an assignment to read a particular book so they could discuss it at his next visit. He made all kinds of excuses as to why he couldn't afford this 12 dollar book so I bought it for him. He kept telling me that he didn't want to spend the money on it until we had bought all of the presents for the girls for Christmas. The funny part was that he kept saying he didn't want to spend the money on it because of Christmas but then he turned around and spent 30 dollars on something for one of his online games.

I have no idea how to even bring that up because I know that his reaction will be, "I know, I messed up. I am stupid. I don't know why I bother." I have chosen not to bring it up because it isn't really that important. It is one thing among many. I am trying to focus on the things that will make things more peaceful and healthy for the kids. I try to save my complaints/criticisms/negativity for the things that really matter like when he got onto one of the kids for saying Hi to me. I had been asleep on the couch but my daughter saw that I had woken up so she said something to me. He got onto her and told her to leave me alone because I was asleep. He didn't even bother to check, he just got onto her and assumed that she was trying to wake me up.

Can you go back in time and pinpoint when the dramatic change took place?  Or maybe it's been an insidious process...

Have you consistently walked your talk?

I apologize for bringing up this subject, the one of both of you stepping out of your marriage in search of other sexual partners.  Were you being true to who you are while that was taking place?  Are you still in contact with the guy? 

The reason I bring this up is because with exh, I made it known through my words about things going on in my family (sister's husband not working blah blah long story... ), how gross that was, her supporting him.  All the while, I was slowly doing the same thing with him, supporting him.  I wasn't walking my talk.  My actions didn't match my words.  Confusing!  Looking back it's like, how could he take anything I said seriously when I was refusing to implement it?  Was I the wife who won't financially support a husband, or the wife who will... .  I WAS supporting him = my actions spoke louder than my words.  Yet, I blamed him for leaving me no choice but to support him.  Blech, dark confusing days those were... .

So, my point is... . he might not really know who you are.  I didn't know who I was, or didn't know how to really get back there; mixed up!

It has been a very slow and insidious process that has occurred very gradually and slowly over time. I can pinpoint a few key events and changes that seemed to accelerate things.

1. The first change started immediately after we said "I do." I chalked that up to the fact that we were both young and had never been married. That changed involved a lack of true physical intimacy. Basically, that is when it became clear that he seemed to prefer porn and self pleasure. There is more to life than sex so I didn't see it as that big of a deal.

2. More changes started around the time our oldest daughter was born. That was about 3 years in. There were a whole bunch of really big changes at once. He got a new job. We bought our first house. A month before our daughter was born and two weeks after we bought and moved into our first house, a major flood hit and we got 36 inches of water in our house. We spent the night on the side of a freeway. I think that it may have been around that time when the trauma bond formed. It seems that after that, I was always pretty easy on my husband, meaning that I didn't really insist on much. He pushed himself harder than I could. In my mind, I had him on a bit of a pedestal at that point but I did sense that things were changing. I chalked that up to being new parents and dealing with the aftermath of the flood.

3. Around the 5 year mark, he was forced to resign from his position at work because he got looking at porn on the job. I was ready to walk away at that point. But, our oldest daughter was around 2 and she really loved her daddy. He was a pretty good daddy to her at that point. He played with her and the three of us did all sorts of stuff together. I had a great little family and I was afraid to do anything to jeopardize it. So, I swallowed any and all of my discontent and committed myself to helping my husband and supporting him. I agreed to be his everything. He went to one SAA meeting and came home and said he wasn't like those guys, blah, blah, blah. Both of us were really arrogant and naive. We thought that we both strong enough as individuals and as a couple to overcome all of it on our own. Also, I think that is the point when I started keeping my feelings to myself about a lot of stuff. I was afraid of making my husband feel guilty or bad. That was the point when I started asking him stuff but agreed not to react no matter what the answer. That is when the major repression began for me.

4. There was a lot of little stuff between the 5 year mark and the 9 or 10 year mark. I am thinking it was 2007-2008 when the next really big shift occurred. That is when he and I were both really kind of depressed. Our third daughter was born and there was a lot of unrest. He got a job in his home state by his parents. It was a really prestigious job. Anyway, long story short is that we ended up living with his parents for 4 months. A complete disaster as his mother nitpicked me and the kids to death and he was hardly ever there. It was a foreign state. I didn't know how to drive on the ice and snow and nobody would really help me learn or encourage me to learn. I felt more trapped than I had felt in my entire life. My mother in law treated me horribly and my husband just sat back and said there was nothing he could do about it. He couldn't find us another place to live. He couldn't ask his mother to be nicer. He couldn't, he couldn't, he couldn't. I snapped and told his mother off once we moved out of there place. The new job didn't work out, our house didn't sell, and I found out we were pregnant with our 4th daughter so we went back to my home state and tried to pick up the pieces. After that fiasco, I felt ready to divorce him because he showed me and the kids that he did not really care about us. My oldest daughter talks about living with her grandmother as a huge turning point. She says that our lives would be so much better if we had never lived with his parents. Really, I think that is when the huge decline began. I think that is when he stopped giving me gifts, stopped paying attention to me and the kids, and really started to check out.


Up until a year or two ago, I can say that I feel like I walked my talk. I have been a really strong proponent of not nagging. I have always made it a point to try to pay attention to my husband and his needs. I was a daddy's girl growing up and my mother was very negative and nagged a lot. I swore that I would never be like her. I wouldn't nag. I wouldn't sit around and find all of my husband's pitfalls. I wouldn't try to turn the kids against their dad by continuously saying bad things about him. I made a promise to myself that I would never withhold sex from my husband. Basically, I wanted a very spiritual marriage where I was dedicated to my husband and our family and life together. To that end, I feel that I walked my talk. I could sense when I was getting off track and I would read and read and would find ways to try to get back on track. I read so many articles about how to woo your husband and get his attention. I feel like I did everything I could to walk my talk.


Don't apologize. I think I really need to sit and think about this one a bit more as I still find it very confusing. On one hand, I was being true to who I am because I was trying to find ways to please my husband as well as myself. On the other hand, I was not being true to myself at all. I am a one man kind of woman. I don't want to share my husband with anybody and I don't want to look at another man while married. I spent 15 years without being tempted to do anything. There was one incident when we were first married that I beat myself up over. It involved lots of alcohol. And, it was a red flag that I didn't see because I was too busy feeling guilty.

Yes, I am still in contact with that guy. That relationship has issues of its own. I don't even think that whatever is there with that guy is what I would call a relationship. It is just more one sided BS that I need to find a way to stop. It will never go anywhere. The guy is uncommunicative and likes to push my buttons. I have no idea why I still talk to that guy other than it feels good. 


Hmmm, that is definitely something to think about. In all honesty, I don't think he has ever truly known who I am. But, I was too oblivious to know it or realize it. There are so many red flags that I can see looking back. My actions and my words were very much in line for a really long time. I had done everything I could to get his attention and give him attention. I even went and read a bunch of religious materials about how to submit to your husband. One of the things that caught my attention during that reading was that a husband must be worthy of being submitted to. It was so odd for me to come to the realization of how one sided things had become when I was reading about submission of all things.

Yes, lots of dark confusing days full of mixed up stuff. I do think I need to figure out who I am and how to get back there. I don't know if I am cut out for the open stuff or not. There are too many other issues at play that totally skew things.

Thanks for asking the hard questions Phoebe!

So, I have the same question as the thread title.  The Christmas holiday was a bit of a disaster, lots of verbal jabs and pokes from uBPDw and at least 3 dereg's before Christmas Day.  I realized just how bad I am at SET, partially because she sees through it and just criticizes me for it.  However, during a dereg, if my mind can only think of JADE, and I can't find anything to validate, I simply say nothing in an attempt to not make it worse.  If it gets worse, I simply leave the room and/or house.  I am then accused for not communicating, but what else are my options?  (I don't want a full on fight with her in front of the kids while she is spewing divorce threats for example... .)

Second question: after a dereg she is sometimes 'nicer' to me, let's just call it 'neutral'.  I feel like I should be capable of accepting this dynamic, but instead I feel intense anger and resentment because there is no apology, resolution or closure about what just happened.  I feel like there should be some type of conversation in order to be pleasant with her.  It's going on about 8 months of the silent and/or IDGivaSh!t treatment, any conversation melts down into a how bad our r/s is... .  How to counter the anger when things are less tense?