BPDFamily.com

Years ago, I read some information pertaining to my mother, who is undiagnosed but clearly BPD. Through years of working on myself, the fleas I inherited growing up, my father who was my role model for co-dependency, I have learned to deal with the good and the not so good I was raised with. However, for obvious reasons, I avoided all the relationship information. It was just not appropriate since that was my parents' lives.

I married a most of the time great person, who seemed to be nothing like my mother, yet for some reason, something wasn't right. Intimate communication is impossible. Saying some things- that I had no idea why- would trigger him into sulking for days, ignoring me, silent treatment, or a verbally abusive rage. Bringing up any real problems in the marriage triggered either a rage, a sulk, or blaming me- all of it is blamed on me.

Being co-dependent, and raised by a BPD mother, I had a poor self concept. I believed him, and molded myself to make him happy. It was impossible and I became a miserable person. Sometimes I would break down too, and then the kids would think I was the crazy one. I eventually gave this up and just gave in to whatever he wanted, not wanting to put them through the parental fighting I grew up with. I did most of the hands on work of raising them. His job was stressful and I didn't want to risk the kids encountering rages that terrified me as a child. He's a generous father to the kids. He tries to do the right thing in most everything he does. He's amazing at work. Everyone loves him. The anger, he reserves for me, but I would much rather it be me than the kids, who are now grown. My mother's friends all think she is wonderful. Abusing her child, as well as other behaviors, was a well kept secret.

Eventually, he agreed to marital therapy, but has so far never revealed much of himself. Instead, the focus has been on me. The therapist suggested co-dependency groups which I promptly joined. I am not sure if she has been convinced by his charming persona, and thinks I am the crazy one, or has decided to work on the most wanting to work to change person- me. There has been improvement. I am not enabling behaviors, and he has made efforts to control being triggered. It is not that I can change him, but I can change my responses. What is going on in his mind, I don't know.

However, I am grateful, because finally the work is paying off and I have enough self concept to realize that the last rage episode he had was over something he made up entirely. Sure, I was there, but the rest of the perceived slight had nothing to do with me. Suddenly most of the issues that caused rages seemed more about him than me and the rages didn't scare me like they used to.  Although this man is higher functioning and nothing like my mother, a pattern was apparent. I had always thought that BPD's were female, and NPD's were male, however NPD didn't entirely fit. Inventing reasons to be hurt and making them the just cause for being verbally abusive, or sulking for days, the constant circular discussions that end up nowhere, and constantly blaming me for all the hurts without any awareness of having a role in them, being triggered and raging- that was my mother's behavior, and the shoe fits. I am now looking into information on the high functioning end of BPD in males- not that I have the right to diagnose, but for information that would help.

I know I have fleas, but at least I know that they are my problem. I was the perfect person to be married to, because my mother is so much of a lower functioning BPD, that even milder BPD traits appeared normal to me. I have thankfully not experienced physical danger. However, even with all the good stuff, the inability to have reasonable discussions is hard.

So for me, the reason to be on the board is to learn. I don't know where it will take me. There is so much good about my life with this man, sadness for what I can't change, gratitude that it made me grow. I like the focus on acceptance and self care. But I still have questions to ask on the appropriate threads, and I need a safe place to share.

  *welcome* *welcome* *welcome* *welcome*

I'm glad you are here.  Please take a look to the right... .and read the lessons.  I've provided a link below.

Please let us know your thoughts on how the lessons apply to your situation... .after your have read them a time or two.

We can help... .please keep coming back...


https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56206

Thank you formflyer,

The information on that link is extensive, and great! It will take me some time to digest all of it. Some of it I am familiar with, having a parent, but a relationship requires putting it in a new perspective.

What I can relate to is being objectified and projected on to. Everything is translated into a personal slight. If I was tired, sick, or for any reason not responsive to his needs, it meant a rejection to him. Walking on eggshells is a reality I lived with, ironically it was worse with my explosive mother, so I didn't see the extent of it.

Executive function is a mystery. This man is a master at his job, but most anything at home would trigger a rage. I eventually just handled most of the home life as asking for help was exhausting as it resulted in a rage.

Conversationally, intimacy is non existent. Anything beyond the superficial becomes a circular argument. He is very good at changing the subject and diverting the conversation. Eventually I get upset and then he tells me "see, this is why I can't talk to you". My new rule, until I learn some better skills, is to not say anything to him that I would not say to a boss at work.

Emotional immaturity for certain, although I would have to add that I was also damaged when entering the relationship by my parents, and needed to mature as well.

Jealousy- yes although I am not very social so this isn't challenged much, but yes, jealous of things that have no reason, such as male friends from childhood, or old boyfriends who I dated and lost contact with before we met, a singer whose songs I like. Once he accused me about lying to him about a college crush that nothing happened. I met my H long after college.

Abandonment- every time I pursue an interest, he takes offense at it. We have had huge arguments over where to retire because if I mention an activity I want to do there, he says " you will leave me alone". If I ever brought up taking a trip on my own, he has some reason why I can't do it. I think this is one reason he rarely offered to watch the kids, or pitched a fit if I asked him to, because if I couldn't get a sitter, I couldn't go anywhere. I also suspect this is why, now that the kids are older, he is much nicer to me than when they were little. I can go somewhere if I choose to and they will be fine.

I have a question about questions. If I ask him even an innocent question, to him it is a personal attack. Sometimes I forget and just ask- and anything in my tone, or how I ask can set him off. Also asking him to do something is an order to him. Once he refused to kiss me for weeks because I asked him to. That broke my heart at the time. He told me it was because he felt I was bossing him around. Now, I just think that is really sad that he came to that conclusion, as it was an expression of affection to me.

A section that is very helpful is the "not making it worse". I do make it worse by being an enabler. The idea of dysregulation is helpful because, when thinking everything really was my fault, I took everything he said when angry to heart, and most of it was just awful stuff that he later denied saying or didn't remember. My parents would do the same thing. They would say horrible things and then later act as if nothing happened- and never apologized.

The arguing to win at all costs is familiar too. My hope with any discussion is for some sort of mutual understanding, but this never happens and once triggered, the goal is to fight to win. Which he does, because one way to disregulate me emotionally is to simulate the conditions that I was in as a child with raging parents.  Mostly I cry when pushed over the edge, and keep trying to talk as if that might work which it won't. Our therapist tells him to disengage from me when he tells her about me getting upset and presents it as my fault. It's both of our faults.

So, my breaking down emotionally is putting gasoline on the rage fire and makes it much much worse. To add to this, I reinforce the rages by being even more compliant and remorseful for my part in it. Sometimes he is remorseful but only when he realizes he has raged enough to know it was to excess. Then, there is calm for a while before the next turn of the cycle. I don't rage, but I react to the rages with tears and anger and that doesn't help. I also need to be more validating. He has a very confident persona and doesn't validate me much. When I asked why, he said he thought that it was a sign of weakness to want validation. I believed him.

As to why stay in a relationship that takes so much work? It isn't all bad, but bad is relative when you grew up with really bad. In many ways, the relationship is good, and I think the issues are relatively mild in comparison to what I experienced growing up. I am willing to do the work because most of it is working on me, and I think I need the work.

Did you read about SET?

How could you have used that tool in this situation?

Do you think what he said to you ... .had anything to do with you?

I could have used SET then had I known about it. It happened before I understood my own family at the time and was accustomed to taking the blame for their bad feelings so I assumed I had done something wrong but when I asked I don't think I got a clear answer. Later on we were able to talk and I learned that he had unexpressed expectations that I did not meet. It's been a common theme for him to be disappointed when I didn't meet his expectations- in most times I didn't know what they were.

I know that each relationship takes two, so surely I had some part in this. If any was to feel rejected and be upset but actually his reason- being bossed around- had nothing to do with me. I had learned not to ask him to do things because it made him mad. The context was intimacy and the kids were very young. He had become dissatisfied and disillusioned with the marriage and that was distressing. I didn't understand why and was trying to remain close.

SET would have been useful as I could have created a safe place to hear him out. I was too reactive to my feelings of rejection to do that then. I will certainly work on that now.

 

How did you do with "validation" and "invalidation"?

Good question. It's almost as if our marriage has two phases. Initially he presented himself to me as someone who didn't need anything from me. It was very puzzling to me, and at the time I became more invalidating because I only felt as if I could speak up about something when I was at the end of my rope. All the terms that are in the invalidating section, he uses with me. Because he told me he considered needing validation to be a contemptuous quality in a person, and being codependent and wanting him to like me, I became remote and detatched, not asking for anything because I thought this was what he wanted. He became disilustioned with the marriage first. I was working very hard to be what he wanted me to be, since who I was didn't seem to make him happy.

Eventually I burned out emotionally, which resulted in a major effort on his part to get the marriage on track. He had a pattern of ignoring me and then ramping up the affection when he wanted to, but not when I wanted it. By this time, I had focused on raising the kids in as stable a home as possible. The effort had an artificial feel to it, but it has sustained in the sense that he acknowleged some awareness of being part of the problem, although he never fully explained why.

Now, I am aware that he needs validation too, and that his super human persona was some kind of illusion. It was hard to switch gears and be validating, but I now know that I need to do it. I need to listen more and talk less in conversations. I am trying. As to my own validation, I get this from the 12 step groups and my sponsor. His invalidating comments and tough persona are a remnant from his FOO. Asking something like that from my mother would result in a rage.

Actually, learning about her has been very helpful with regards to my H and others. Even the smallest bit of advice to her will trigger her. She's had more than her share of invalidation and now I can see why something that is normal conversation to me is invalidating to her. I try to validate her more and it helps our relationship. Thanks to the co-dependency training, I have learned to advise less unless asked.

 

Validation... .done properly... .is a great skill.  Regardless of the "status" of the other person in a conversation.

In other worlds... .you don't have to have a PD to get benefits from validation.

Thanks, I agree.

I'm not here looking for an agreement that my H is BPD, however, our conversational style and the difficulties in our communication fit a similar pattern and if the tools that work for BPD can help, then I am willing to try them.  I am grateful that he does not have the problems that my mother has, and am willing to admit that I have work to do to overcome the maladaptive ways of interacting that I grew up with. I consider disorders to be on a spectrum and also that people can have shadows of them, or learn them from their parents, so tools for disorders can work regardless of where someone sits on that spectrum or not.

The one issue that has evaded every one of my efforts to improve is talking about things that are not superficial, for just about every time I start a conversation it ends up with evasive superficial speech. This makes me feel like I am crazy, but I feel my communications with others have been successful, with the exception of my mother, and my H where I seem to inevitably trigger them.

Whatever I am doing isn't working, and I know that the only person who I can change is me. I am the only one in the relationship asking for help.  He is trying, but he insists he can and should do it on his own, for needing help is a sign of weakness to him.  I am the one seeking help, for me.

For one, I see where the acronym JADE fits me, for when accused, or when I am trying to communicate something, I justify, defend and explain. Not so much the "A". The more I do this, the worse the conversation gets. It really does feel as if I am speaking a completely different language that can not get through. My husband is aware of my sadness when this happens, and says that it makes him feel defective when I tell him I can't communicate with him. Sometimes after talking, and no conclusion, he points out "see, I am talking to you- we just talked for an hour" as if somehow putting in the time is the measure of "talking" but little in terms of mutual understanding is accomplished. Another thing I do is run on with the same issue, which he hates, but I never know if he gets it or not. Now, I know not to defend or explain an accusation that isn't true, but I can still validate his feelings about it.

As to emotions, I have the whole range. The only emotion he expresses freely is anger. Otherwise he is quite subdued. He loves having me be emotional in terms of attention to him, and he is attentive but it is more subdued. He is also critical of emotional people. He considers himself to be highly logical and see things logically. However, when he is enraged, he truly believes he is under attack and will say all kinds of hurtful things. Since I do express emotions, he tells me I am out of control, but out of control tears are in response to his rages. I am working on not being reactive. One result of my working on feelings is that I have become more subdued. Drama does not appeal to me.

Mostly, just about anything I say to him is translated into a criticism to him even if I don't intend it. As a result, I sometimes say as little as possible to him. Then he sees my silence as lack of affection. He tells me he wants me to talk to him since I am the talkative one, but talking is walking on dangerous grounds as saying something unintended can set him off. Also, if he does reply in a personal conversation, his speech is slow and deliberate, and not spontaneous at all, which makes it akward, and exhausting for me. Life is so much better if we just don't talk, but is that my only choice?

I am not giving up on a relationship that is mostly good, however, I am wondering if I should just accept that conversations will be limited to non personal topics.

Maybe it would help to give an example of a frustrating argument based on "logic". I will try to keep to the pertinent details. We had rented a truck for a move and I assumed that he would be driving since none of the kids or I had any experience driving one and felt uncomfortable doing so. Since we were running late and he had work to do, he decided that one of us should return it and said so at the last minute. I replied that I was not comfortable driving it, so then he said our son should do it.

My response was that our son had only been driving a short while and had no experience driving something like that, and that I didn't think it was safe to put an inexperienced driver in that truck alone for the first time.

His response to me was that this was ridiculous and that the truck was easy to drive. I held my ground.

So his next "logical" response was to reply that this is a skill that his son should have and that he could do it at that age so his son should too. My response was that he was a more experienced driver at that age and I didn't think it was safe for this son until he had more experience too. This did not go well.

The underlying issue that I think was going on was that he was late and upset about that but he didn't say that. I say "think" because I don't really know what someone is thinking, and he did not say anything about his work concerns at all until the last minute so I was unaware of them. If he had, we could have made other arangements altogether.  

Being codependent, I would have ordinarily given into his demand and accomodated him to avoid the fight, however, where safety is concerned - I can not comply. No amount of explaining why I didn't think it was safe did any good. It made it worse.

Later on in the T's office we came up with a plan. There was a way to accomodate both our wishes- to have his son learn to drive a truck and to do it safely. The next time we needed one, he would make arrangements to get one early and have my son practice driving it with him, and he would be in charge of deciding when he was competent enough for him to take it out on the road. I thought this was settled.

However, I had originally made the arangements for renting the truck with my H. My H was sitting next to me when we did it online. He decided what size and so on, with me navigating the site. So when it was time to do it again, he said " time to rent the truck" indicating that I should help him. It didn't occur to me that he would need my help since he was with me when we did it and saw everything I did.

I reminded him that he had agreed to take this on. That precipitated a rage, according to him, because of how I said it. I think I said that it was his problem to take care of. ( basically he raised the issue about having his son drive it and I thought we had discussed in T that he'd take it on). I assumed that this was an agreement we had come to in therapy. This began a full blown rage accusing me of dumping the whole thing on him, leaving the entire move up to him, that he felt blindsided by my refusal when he assumed I would do it, that I wasn't doing my share. This put me into full "fix it" mode ( my default) and I took care of everything else that I could- packing, organizing. He did rent it,  and made sure to remind me that he did do it on his own. During therapy, we had agreed that he would discuss the driving with my son, but he never did. He never brought it up to him, and made the decision that it was best to drive on his own. By the time of the move he was very helpful. I recall he did agree with the safety issue at this point.

So if someone has any insight into this, or how to handle it differently, please let me know. Just doing what he wanted would have avoided this in the first place, but I could not comply with something I thought was not safe. I don't understand why something that should be an standard task- rent a truck to move some things becomes this.