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I feel deja vu posting this, because I've been in this exact position before, except this time feels a little different.

Backstory: Over four years of custody battles with N/BPDx (a former trial attorney), I've dealt with more than 60+ court filings. You know it's bad when the security police at the court house tell you to use the lawyer entrance because they see you so often they figure you're an attorney   And you know it's bad when the judge files a gatekeeping order against your ex to stop him from filing frivolous motions.

Long story short, after 4 long years of custody battles, including 4 appeals (all dismissed), and the usual delays and obstructions with car title, house refinance, the judge awarded me full custody and terminated visitation. I thought NBPDx was going to appeal the termination of visitation, but he didn't. That timeline has passed. At that same hearing, the judge awarded me legal fees. $3600. Which is a lot of money to me right now. I'm in graduate school for at least another semester, work full time at a job that doesn't pay a whole lot, and have legal debt like only people here can imagine. Alimony ends next month, so my monthly income is about to drop. Fortunately, my lawyer has said I can take as long as I need to pay it back. I chip away at it every month, and she has forgiven some of it. N/BPDx makes 4x what I make working as an attorney for the state. 

I'm really, really, really tired of courtrooms and motions and filings and big fat envelopes stuffed with legal documents.

I'm also broke. It would probably cost me $1200 to hire my lawyer to file a motion for contempt to get N/BPDx to pay.

But with full custody and no visitation, N/BPDx is out of the picture.

I don't know whether to fire up the legal machine again. I don't know if I would have to appear in court or not. The judge I had for the last four years rotated off the bench, so it's possible my L would want me to show up if it's a new judge.

The one big difference filing to collect the $$$ this time (I've collected legal fees 3x before) is that N/BPDx has a new girlfriend. I remember N/BPDx's second wife (I was #3, although at the time thought I was #2), was trying to get him to settle up on a legal debt when we were first married and he just cut a check. So maybe the idealization stage with the new girlfriend could help?

Like everyone else here, we didn't go to court because of the money.  Unfortunately it's another way to stay engaged with the ex when he doesn't pay. 


Direct request.  Dear exBPDh, you were ordered to pay XYZ at the hearing on ABC.  When will this money be paid.  If I don't get a reply by DEFG I will be forced to file more court motions for payment as on the previous occasions listed below.  Please indicated when I will receive this money from you, if i dont receive a reply from you by DEFG as stated above I will start court preceding s again. 

On a side note here... .

My last employer owes me about $4000 in wages unpaid.  I made a choice when I got a new job to just leave it be.  $4000 is ALOT of money to me, a huge amount of cash.  My previous employer is a text book NPD case.  To try and get the money out of him would be a battle in itself, I didn't know about all these different mental health issues back then however I knew it would be an uphill battle so I left it.  3 years later I don't care about this money, or this previous employer.  If your able to get the money out of the ex go for it, same as everyone here, follow through if you say your going to do XYZ. 

It may be a bit wishy washy my response.  I hope it adds up.  Do what is the correct thing to do for yourself... .


AJJ. 

Since you still owe to your L, can she help try to get to get the money with the provision that she gets a percentage of it if it comes in? And no fees paid if no money comes in.  You would not get the full amount this way, but no new fees would added to what you owe L, and she would then get paid on what you already owe.

Yes, this is exactly how it has worked in the past. It goes into what is essentially a trust or escrow account for my L, and she applies it directly to my balance. I don't even need to sign the check.  

It's odd what started me thinking about this. N/BPDx has been responsible for paying child care costs, which mostly amounted to summer camp. But S13 will be 14 this summer, and he has aged out of the camp where he has attended since he was 4. As part of the court order, N/BPDx has been paying member dues at this camp/club. Since there is no more camp there, there is no reason to pay member dues. I contacted the club and N/BPD is still paying them.

Do you see where I'm going with this?  

The camp/club fees are probably auto drafting from his paycheck and either he doesn't realize that S13 has aged out of camp, or he doesn't remember that he set it up as auto draft. N/BPDx was terrible at managing money. I was always the one paying attention.

I'm torn what to do. I really don't feel spiteful, but if I don't collect legal fees because I don't want to engage, then I don't tell him about the camp dues for the same reason.

so how's your energy? are you exhausted?


do they know his history?

Last fall I was exhausted. We were in court three times in August, twice in September, and three times in October. Right now, it's more like having a court hangover from all that.


Yes. Like other people here, when we did our financial settlement, I thought the way to minimize the conflict was to let N/BPDx have what he wanted. So I didn't get a very good financial settlement. One of the reasons my L has pressed so hard for legal fees is that she is irritated to no end that he is representing himself for free, and filing frivolous motions that I have to hire her to help me defend.

But you know how all of this goes. You just end up being in a long, protracted fight.

I don't know. I think I feel numb at this point, which is why it's hard to figure out what to do.

that certainly would be angering. i was wondering if he's been brought to the attention of the bar association.

btw you have a very kindly lawyer.

Yes. Like other people here, when we did our financial settlement, I thought the way to minimize the conflict was to let N/BPDx have what he wanted. So I didn't get a very good financial settlement.



My L brought this up at one point. We decided to not do anything because then it jeopardizes his job, which jeopardizes child support and alimony. Which is ending. L said that the gatekeeping order against an attorney would definitely get their attention. He could never get the job he has now if they knew. The state has a much more rigorous hiring standard.

But what, really, is there to gain?


Yes, extremely kind. She has gone above and beyond for me. And she is an excellent tactical thinker. Might be the closest thing to an  in the legal profession.

i understand.


for you nothing, but the bar would have an interest in the professionalism of their members. i'm just surprised they don't know. does he have to be reported or can the bar reach out and take notice? his actions seem egregious (he does too :)).

Can you have his work garnish his wages?  Is this something you could file on your own, with your lawyer there just for consultations and review of the paperwork?

Step back, get some emotional distance, imagine yourself a few years from now, with that perspective would you regret letting it go - or not?  Similarly, what would you advise someone in your situation?  Would not pursuing it enable more obstruction?

I feel as emotionally distant as I possibly could get. I'm even ok not doing anything.

But then I look at my credit card bill, and my school loans, and my legal bills, and I feel emotional about that. I'm eligible to have N/BPDx pay 75% of all S13's medical costs, including therapy and dental, which adds up. I've never collected, not for the last four years. I don't know why.   

When I started all this, I realized a boundary is a boundary is a boundary. If I didn't set a boundary just because I felt exhausted, I wouldn't have full custody and terminated visitation.

Would you be awarded legal fees for this contempt filing too? And if so, would they be added to the $3600 that he isn't paying?

Or would getting them paid require a second contempt filing (assuming you do not get willing compliance).


Is this court ordered as well?

From a tactical point of view, is it better to do these together, or one at a time?

That's how it worked in the past. The judge I had for four years rotated off the bench, so maybe it would be different with a new judge. But I wouldn't collect legal fees for this one, if they were awarded. That's why I think of it as $3600-$1200. My L also has a very nice tendency to round things down. So she might just charge me $1K. Maybe even less, I don't know.


I assume I would not get willing compliance.  :)


Yes. It goes all the way back to the temporary order.


Doing them together would make more sense. But then I would have some explaining to do. Why didn't I bring these expenses up before? Part of it was sheer overload. I would have to figure out what got covered by insurance, what didn't. And for a while there I was drowning in legal drama and school and single parenting, and that kind of paperwork was on the bottom of the list of things I most wanted to do. 

At the heart of the bills are therapy and assessments, and those add up into the thousands over the past four years. My behavioral health insurance isn't great. I also learned that it's important to pick a good T, and often they don't seem to take insurance, at least not where I live. And I enrolled S13 in a social skills class with a really good social worker, one of the best things I've ever done for S13. He likes it, and it's helped him a lot, but it's not covered by insurance at all.

I guess the question is whether a boundary like this matters when there is no relationship anymore. Kind of unusual for a custody situation, but that's where we're at. It's been quiet, and if I start this all up again, it will feel like I'm backsliding.

***NO*** This is NOT a relationship with your NPDx, and going back to court isn't re-starting the relationship.

Hmmm... .so perhaps ask him for the 75% of costs... .so he can ignore it... .so you can bring it up in court. And do it all together. Do you have some statute of limitations on the legal fees award that is coming up?

Here's a way of looking at it... .especially if you can combine things... .add up the combined amounts he owes you... .$3600 + 75% of S13 medical expenses. Perhaps just do a rough and quick estimate of medical expenses.

Then look at what it will cost you to get it. Legal fees. Time and energy. You've been through this crap enough with NPDx that you probably have a pretty good idea what it will be like.

The money is worth something to you. So is your peace of mind. When you set them all down on paper together, you will probably have a better idea whether it is worth it or not.

I presume my court read my initial paperwork asking for reimbursement.  I had photocopied the bills, my emails to her and included my Certificates of Mailing.  Then the decision which was otherwise favorable said I hadn't proved I asked my ex for reimbursement?  I couldn't figure that out, unless it was that I didn't testify at the hearing about the papers originally filed.  (That was partly our strategy, we submitted the documents but focused on parenting issues so it wouldn't look like father was there just to get money or avoid paying money.)  In any case, my court ordered that only bills promptly submitted to the other, whatever that would mean, would be recognized as payable and so I figure since I didn't testify I had mailed them as the papers documented... .

So be prepared for older bills and reimbursement requests to be considered stale or too old.  But include them anyway in case the judge wants something to exclude.

You mention he's high on a bew relationship. I think it might honestly be worth trying to just ask. I mean, what do you have to lose? Could you simply send him an email being "nice". And say something like: Hey, I just wanted to let you know that S is too old to continue going to XYZ Camp so you don't have to keep paying on that. Also, can you please cut me a check for the $3600 for our last hearing? Thanks!"

Now, you he be a giant jerk about it? Yup. But with his new relationship in play he may want to look like a good guy and who knows he just may pay it. Especially since you can just say "the last hearing". So he can create the illusion in his own mind that the whole thing wasn't about what it was actually about. The only question us what do you havecto lose by saying it all casual like it's no biggie and of course he's a reasonable enough person to comply?

As for the medicals, you should check the rules in your state. In the state I am dealing with if you can prove you asked for the money and provides copies of the bills and proof you paid them, then a judge can order him to reimburse you. Because medical expenses (again this is state specific) are considered child care costs, you can give a copy of the order to child support enforcement and they'll enforce for you. This usually actually means something because they have some pretty persuasive enforcement techniques of their own.

Thanks everyone.

This is so hard. I'm emotionally 110% finished with it. But I did email my L to see what she had to say about filing another motion for contempt. She might know who the new judge is and have an angle on things I haven't considered.

It was way easier to deal with court when it had tangible effects on S13. Going to court just for the money is much harder emotionally than I thought. I was kinda hoping you all would say don't bother. 

About sending N/BPDx an email directly. Gah. Even high on a new relationship (assuming the idealization phase is still in play), he is not going to pay. He just isn't.

I'm also having a hard time whether to tell him that he can stop paying dues. In the past, it seems no matter whether I was trying to be fair or even help, I got my head bitten off.

Nope, that's a good idea to find out what the state laws might be re: medical expenses. It might be a straightforward process. FD, I'm sorry you even had to strategize around money vs child. I think that is definitely a bias dads have to deal with more than moms.

If you or S13 were getting some benefit from the dues it would be different. Just letting him bleed money for the membership because you won't contact him seems harsh and cruel.

A two-line email about the matter is all that would be required.

It doesn't sound like something I'd expect you to do, given the sort of values you normally express around here.

If you *REALLY* don't want to contact him in this matter, you could tell the organization he's paying... .officially cancel S13's membership, and ask them to notify NPDx that he's paying for a closed/aged out membership, so you don't have to contact him directly.

It isn't about spite -- I'm not wired that way. I really do see N/BPDx as someone who is ill, not evil.

And it isn't about the rude email that will come back from N/BPDx. That I can dismiss. I'm pretty good at that ninja move now.

It's about drawing his disordered attention to a place that S13 loves, especially at a time when I might be filing a court action. Does that make sense? So N/BPDx gets the motion in the mail, meanwhile I tell him he doesn't have to pay dues. And then N/BPDx does something harmful to S13 through the club. I don't know what. S13 has been looking forward his whole life to being a counselor in training, which is what he'll be doing this summer. The camp director said it's ok if S13's dad does not pay dues, they know S13 like family and will offer him a spot.

N/BPDx would try to sabotage that for S13 in retaliation for me filing a court motion. Then I'm trying to mop things up with the camp people, with S13 worried that maybe he can't work there. I don't know. There have been so many scenarios like this in the past, and even though I can usually pick up the pieces and we all move forward, it costs so much in emotional energy.

I might wait until after the summer to say something about ending the dues. That way, S13 can go to the pool as a member if he wants, and by then he'll have finished the training program without any interference from his dad.

Hmm, I liked that idea, bummer that this is a seasonal expense.  Since it starts up again next summer, can the camp hold the dues as a credit toward future charges?  Or refund to you?  If he never complains, court will never do anything.  If he did complain at some point, would court would just tell him that any refund you got from his overpayment should be deducted from what he owes you?

Oh no! I got the impression since he aged out it was moot. If he's going to be a CIT there then, no. Don't bring the ex's a y attention to the place at all.

He actually pays dues in quarterly installments. So in a sense, he has paid only one quarterly installment past what is necessary. He could've stopped at the end of summer 2014. We're talking about $400, maybe more if dues have gone up.

So by next summer, we would be talking $1200 give or take. I don't know if they can refund to me, but even if they could, doesn't that seem complicated? I don't trust court orders in these situations. I took my court order to have the title transferred from N/BPDx to me, and DMV would not honor it because it didn't have this or that and whatnot. Once you start waving a court order around, everyone gets nervous that more law suits will follow.

I would have to tell them, "Look, my ex owes me money. I want to collect that money through you guys. Let him pay quarterly until he gets to $3600, and then give that money to me.  

I can't see them going for that. Or am I missing something here.

Also, I don't think N/BPDx can file any motions at this point, even to get me to pay him for not saying that club dues were no longer required. And the order doesn't actually say he has to pay the club dues, he just did that to reduce how much he had to pay i camp, which is what he was responsible for in the order. So it's a grey area.

He sort of can file a motion for contempt against me, but the court won't hear them per the gatekeeping order. Not unless he gets a board-certified family law attorney to approve the motion. Would he do that? Hard to say, but I think not. He didn't file an appeal on our last hearing, which is a first. I think he is getting tired.

And Nope -- he has aged out of paying for camp. He is now eligible to be a counselor-in-training, so he'll still be active there. Although last summer he went to the pool once, since we have a pool at my apartment complex. And teenagers apparently are less interested in hanging out at pool with parents unless there are big pods of teenagers to hang out with. 

LnL, that sounds like it fits the values I've seen you express here all the time.

You want to avoid drama for S13, so you aren't even going to draw NPDx's attention to something that S13 cares about which he seems to have forgotten.

Risking that doesn't seem worth saving NPDx $400/quarter. You already said he's irresponsible with money, so this sort of thing happens all the time with him.

Any chance you have of getting the money refunded to you or applied to S13's later needs is a tiny bonus.



You still have a tough choice to make about trying to get money from NPDx.


This has some impact on your choice.


Nope. As Skip and others have said before... .good mental health is HARD. We're not letting you off the hook for making the best choices you can for yourself and S13.

While DMV does need to be careful, in some states DMV is just needlessly paranoid and bureaucratic.  This was Brooklyn, NYC, and the office was downtown where I didn't trust the parking rules and space availability in all that congestion, so the car was left parked in its lot about 3 miles away.  This was all public transportation or walking.

• Visit #1 - Register car at central DMV.  Bring papers to insurance staff, they can't insure, they point out the new title's VIN has a single digit or letter typo, a clear entry error.



• Visit #2  - Back at DMV, DMV ignores my pleas it was their entry error, insisted I have to bring in a tracing of the car's VIN.  Get supplies but no room under windshield to trace anything.



• Visit #3  - Back at DMV, DMV still ignores my pleas it was their entry error, says alternate is to take a photo of VIN.  I run around trying to find someone with a Polaroid camera, this was mid-1990s, the era of film cameras and long before cell phone cameras.



• Visit #4  - Back at DMV, DMV still ignores my pleas it was their entry error, but accepts the polaroid snapshot, reprocesses the new corrected title.

not that this will help you now, but i can report that the NYC DMV has gotten better.

Always glad to hear a positive view on DMV even if it's nowhere near where I live  :)

So my L responded to an email I wrote her, and she said let's wait until alimony ends next month before filing a motion. Sometimes I think she knows my ex better than I do. It never occurred to me that filing a motion for contempt on one thing would make him not pay alimony this close to the end -- next month is the last check. This is one of the hardships of divorcing a BPD lawyer. He really knows how to make everything cost more. I would have to file a separate motion to collect the missing alimony, and it wouldn't be worth it, which he knows full well.

I'm going to have to think really hard about the medical expenses. It might be worth it to just throw it in there so that the judge can say no, like someone mentioned above. But then I have to do all that paperwork. Gah.

I'm leaning toward not saying anything about the camp dues until after the summer is over and S13 has been through the counselors in training program. N/BPDx probably won't notice -- he is truly awful at managing money. I feel bad for him thinking about how much he has earned and then wasted in his life. And I can justify my own values here because S13 will probably use the facilities this summer. Last summer, he didn't go on his own with friends because there were in camp all day, and had plenty of time at the pool. This summer, he won't be in camp, and I'll want him to get exercise and do something other than hang around the house.

I just have to remember to tell N/BPDx to cancel the membership at the end of summer, so I put it on my calendar.

Thanks for being a sounding board  :). It always takes me a while to sort through these things.

You are always so helpful in your responses to others.

As I was reading through, it seems as though you want to do what normal, healthy people would do in regards to your ex paying the dues that he doesn't really need to. Being a kind person most would love to say "hey by the way I noticed you are still paying and you might have not realized you don't need to" BUT with people like our ex's that isn't our job any longer. Shouldn't it be his responsibility to manage his payments and to know when they are no longer needed? Although maybe I missed something that says you were required to let him know some sort of information around the dues payment.

If you aren't required to tell him, then I wouldn't. I sometimes have to remind myself that "that stopped being my job when we divorced" and don't feel guilty for it.

I do agree with your L about waiting until the last alimony bill is paid but I wouldn't let thousands of dollars go, unless of course it will cost more to get the funds. Hopefully when you cross that bridge it will be an easy email from your L to him and he will just pay. He may be difficult about the medical costs since you hadn't asked for them before but you won't know until you try so doing it all together sounds like a good plan.

again, if you aren't ordered to tell him about the dues at the end of the summer delete that off your calendar. Let him figure that out for himself, that is one less thing you have to put any energy into. And that isn't being spiteful that is not being responsible for someone else's stuff.

I know what you mean, and believe me, after the hell we've been through, it would be easy to just let this drop. (It's not in the order that I need to notify him.)

I guess at this point it feels good to act halfway normal when it comes to him. It was really hard the first year or two after we divorced to have boundaries with N/BPDx -- it was a beast of effort and discomfort building a moat and a drawbridge after basically being a doormat my whole life. It made me feel like I was exactly the mean and heartless person he used to say I was.

But somehow the boundaries now feel like second nature. And then the court backed me up with some real boundaries, like terminating visitation.

I feel like I can have the values I have, and be consistent with them, and that's helping me stay steady whenever something to do with N/BPDx comes up. It's really all about me at this point.  :)  How can I have my values while minimizing conflict? Something like that. I never had that before.

I'm also thinking that I'll just contact the camp and let them know and they can take it from there.

Unless there is a downside, which I can't think of at this point. S13 will be actively using the place this summer, so it won't be possible for N/BPDx to say anything.

One thing I've grown tired of, grew tired of, is going back to court to "fix" some obvious mistake that took money out of my pocket, only to have more money taken out of my pocket, or to be further frustrated with some Master that wouldn't give me something that was obviously due me.  It may sound like a lot of money and I'm sure it is, is it likely that ex can do this smoothly?  Maybe not.  How good are the chances that the Judge gets pissed at ex and tells him to pay your fees for this ridiculous stuff.  maybe pretty high I would hope.  If that's the case, go for it.   

livednlearned... .

As you have advised me many times you have to decide what is the number one thing you want and then... .the cost/benefit of what you finally decide is your #1 choice at the top rung of the ladder.

ForeverDad points that out... .and... .I think poses a great question about what will your view be in a few years?

We all have experienced the legal costs that seem to never end and the financial stress we now endure... .but you have clearly posted your decision tasks in your post that I think are in front of you.


I'm really, really, really tired of courtrooms and motions and filings and big fat envelopes stuffed with legal documents.

   We all have walked a mile in your shoes!  And you know from your experience that added engagement with your attorney and the court will only extend the receipt of many more full Kevlar envelopes chock full with Xerox copies, copies of motions filed in the court and notices to appear that are a part of what continued engagement automatically presents.

I'm also broke. It would probably cost me $1200 to hire my lawyer to file a motion for contempt to get N/BPDx to pay.

     You know that if you only spend the $1200 for contempt since he has not provided you what the judge ordered will probably end up to be $1,500, or $1,800 or even $2,000!  Every time the judge and my attorney outlined next steps and time lines... .it always took more time and clearly added to more legal fees than what was expected.  While gaining the legal fees is attractive if it costs you excessive money to get it only you can decide that.  If you end up spending $2,200 to get the $3,600 and you actually realize a net of $1,400... .what is that worth it to you financially and emotionally?

But with full custody and no visitation, N/BPDx is out of the picture.

     How do you value this with all the other items at this time that make up your life?... .your graduate school work?... .Alimony and financial support ending?... .Outstanding legal fees?... .Out of the Picture?

Out of the picture takes many of us a very long time (... .and a lot more money) to achieve.

What is your #1 priority?

p.s. - It feels unusual giving input or my POV to someone as informed, wise and a great coach as you have been in the past!  A belated thank you to you and all the members of your team for all the great insight and help you all have provided to me!

NewWays

Thanks everyone. It always harder to see your own stuff clearly. It's so much easier to see the clear path when it's happening to someone else, so I appreciate the input!

N/BPDx paid alimony for January. There is only one more month of alimony, and then he's done. I'm still not sure what I'm going to do  . My L said I don't have to attend, and chances are high that N/BPDx will be faced with incarceration if he does not pay. He's been to this rodeo a few times and she doesn't think a judge will give him any rope.

When I was starting up with the legal system, having consistent boundaries was my compass. If it was better for S13, that was my compass. If it was written in the judge's ruling, that was my compass. It helped to have something solid so when I felt turned around by my own dynamic (tendency to roll over) and his dynamic (threaten), I just went with values/boundaries.

But the most shocking thing happened -- which is that the judge terminated visitation. I guess I'm feeling like I won, so why kick the hornet's nest? I still have this tiny bit of guilt about receiving alimony, even though it has cost me so much more to stand my ground in court. Even though he makes so much more money than me. I guess I've never liked the feeling of having any dependence on him.

I don't know. It's the emotional repulsion I feel for being in court. I don't know that I can bring myself to go back without it being a matter tied directly to S13's wellbeing.

that's strong language. i think you know which way you want to go.

This isn't a comment to pull you in either direction but it's been often noted that what a parent does or doesn't do often has little impact on the disordered parent's actions.  So while you seeking compliance with the order might trigger another overreaction, he might overreact on almost anything else, sooner or later.  Yes, he's been quiet lately, probably blaming you that he can't see his son, but keep in mind there's a game-changer gatekeeping order now.  So it comes down to whether you think he can find a way to restart the chaos - somewhat unlikely the way things are now - or just fuss in court and then write another check at the last second.

I'm in a weird frontier here, though. Aren't I? There's this big expanse in front of me where it seems he has very limited ability to mess with me legally, and he can't do a whole lot to mess with S13's wellbeing and care, including the psychiatrist he is about to start seeing. Or the high school he wants to apply to. It's just me with my legal guardianship, and no threat of parental alienation, no one undermining things and making S13 doubt himself.

So it's a different kind of hornet's next than the usual fare on this board. We had the custody battle of a lifetime and I came away with more than most people could even hope for. Maybe for a few thousand dollars, it's time to just let this all go?

Is the total of legal bills he was ordered to pay, plus the medical portion for which he's responsible really "only a few thousand dollars," or are you minimizing it? Are you setting a precedent for his refusing to reimburse medical for how many more years? What might that cost you?

I get not kicking a hornet's nest.

I agree not to kick it before the alimony winds down.

However... .what kind of sting does the hornet have anymore?

He isn't in your life or S13's life. All he does is write a check for things he's legally obligated to pay... .or NOT write a check for something he's legally obligated to pay.

I'm having trouble with the logic of not going after him for money owed to you... .because he can choose not to pay money he is owed to you!

I'm having trouble with the logic too. 

It might be that charging uphill all these years made sense when it was about protecting S13. I found extra pockets of strength and stamina for him.

A friend compared it to surgery. She said it's like I spent 4 years in a hospital to help S13 heal, which was a no-brainer. Now I'm presented with the equivalent of an optional surgery for myself, and it's hard to rev up and choose to go back.

But for some reason, what Gagrl said about minimizing the costs and setting a precedent for reimbursing future medical expenses made me feel some of my doormat stuff. Even a few thousand dollars is a lot to me right now.

You really sound like you keep trying to talk yourself out of it. And I don't think it is working.

I think this is about guilt.

N/BPDx was terrible with money. He was a successful (former) trial attorney, but when I met him, his finances were a mess. He had collections agencies calling and had a long history of making bad choices. I took over the finances and we eventually smoothed things out, although he continued to be an impulsive spender. As part of my exit plan, I started putting a portion of my paycheck into a separate account and did that for about a year. Close to the end of our marriage, he insisted on taking over the finances and wanted passwords and account information. I stalled while getting my exit plan in place, but then one day got an automatic notification from one of my credit card companies that the card had been canceled. That's the day I left. I went and took out half of what we had so I could support me and S13 until we mediated our settlement.

I feel guilt about all this. I understand it was necessary to hide money and leave like that, but even writing it down here I still feel the need to justify it in the court of public opinion. I helped him stabilize his finances, and I worked even though my salary barely covered the child care costs for S13. That's not necessary to share, but I feel defensive about the way I left. For the last four years, every child support/alimony check has my name with a $ in it instead of the letter "s". Every email I get it's the same thing.

He feels he put me through my master's degree, which I managed to finish without taking out any school loans. I worked part-time while I was in school, and also taking care of S13.

I have some messed up dynamics around money and worth because of FOO that's in here too.

So not wanting to collect the legal fees is tied up in this. If I go after the money, then I'm the money-obsessed villainous ex-wife. If I let it go, then I get to make the point that I'm not all about money.

This is the dark narrative running through all this, in addition to how much I just don't want to go back to court.

You've done a HUGE amount of work on yourself to get where you are.  |iiii Really, I find your story on these boards to be one of the most inspiring ones!

If you are letting your NPDex guilt you about money and influence your thinking (like crossing the s to a $ in your name on the checks), you have found some more work for yourself.

And you are way too self-aware to really let yourself completely off this hook  :)

One of the things I've learned... .just because doing something feels uncomfortable doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.

I believe that once you get through YOUR dark narrative around money, your FOO, and your NPDex, you will be able to choose how to deal with this in a way that feels clearly right to you.

Isn't that the truth. Uncomfortable was my middle name there for a while. I was hoping I could just coast here for a while, out of the watchful eyes of bpdfamily  :) just enjoying the breeze.

And I know, you're right. And any money that comes in just goes to debt anyway. It's not like I'm headed to the Bahamas anytime soon with bunches of cash.

I'm giving myself until Feb 10 to decide. By then I'll know whether he paid the last month of alimony. And by then I need to decide if I'm going to go after medical expenses too. It's a really weird feeling to have full and total custody of S13, but still be getting money from N/BPDx. I never really processed that. But as my L says over and over, no one did this to N/BPDx except himself. I have to keep telling myself that.

Thanks for the tough love, GK.  :)

Lived N Learned... .

I really do like the bunch of cash and headed off to the Bahamas!  That sounds great! There is nothing wrong with dreaming once in awhile!

Do not forget how much you know and have knowledge of... .to help you make your decision.

You will make the right decision... .the one that is right for you and your S13.

Hope all is well with you.

NewWays

Ding!

You gave yourself a deadline of yesterday. Have you decided?

I meant to respond last week but got distracted.

Yes. I'm going to do it.    I wrote to my L and asked if I have to appear in court, thinking that "no" would help me make my decision. But something happened and I just decided that even knocking off $1000 from my legal bills is worth it.

He paid the last month of alimony.

The other issue is whether to look back at 4.5 years worth of medical/dental bills and decide whether to have him pay. It would probably total $1500, but that would be a whole new motion and for that, I am done. No more new things.

It would be amazing if N/BPDx just paid up on the legal sanctions. I'll let ya know. 

My court stated that I had to prove I had sent copies of bills and asked for reimbursement, which I had been doing.  It was even submitted to the court but apparently because my lawyer didn't directly question me about it - not wanting the case to appear to be about money - the court used it as an excuse to say I hadn't proved notice even though it was right there in the court papers.  Then the court added that I had to promptly share such bills with her in order to not be 'stale'.

So going after medical expenses from years ago may be iffy, especially if you don't prove you shared copies and reimbursement requests with him.

Update.

Anyone want to guess how this is working out?  

N/BPDx did not respond to my L's email. She took a long time to get to it, and then didn't charge me for having to dig up the documents to clarify what the amount was, so that's nice. I noticed she gave me a professional courtesy discount back in January, so I asked her about it. She said I've been paying down my balance regularly and it's never late, so it was a bonus  :)

N/BPDx logic is: LnL wants me to pay her legal fees, so I won't pay child support.

It's two weeks into April, and he still has not sent child support.

Fortunately, I've been really careful with money and have been saving a small emergency fund. This happened one time before and I realized I was getting too comfortable with regular child support, so I've been trying to save half when it comes in. Another member suggested I do something like that and I'm so glad she did  :light:  So I'm not in a panic, at least not yet. I have about 4 months I can go before that fund runs out.

Even the smallest, easiest thing has to be difficult. It's the only consistent thing in all this mess.  

What a jerk to put it nicely.   .  He is employed and has the money.  It doesn't seem like he's paid the legal fees either.

The entitlememt mentality is imbreeded, but even though it's part of their PD,  including my xh , know exactly what they are doing.  They know we won't tell the kids , so the not paying support is aimed at the adult.

So he's back to that. Does he really want to walk into court owing both the L fees AND back CS? Guess so.

Back when we were in court all the time, I wondered if he liked being in front of the judge. I think he did.

They take CS seriously here in my state. I suspect he is just drawing this out to send a message, and will eventually pay on his own accord. The process to garnish wages takes a while, and I know he would not want his employer to know that was going on.

Still. I thought maybe he would be tired of this, but I guess not. 

He's no longer being well behaved. You might as well ask him for the part he's supposed to pay for your son's counseling, and other such expenses now, I guess.

Apparently he'll only pay when it is keeping him out of jail.

I think you're right.

And if we end up in court again, I might ask for the medical costs from the psychiatrist.

I don't know.

There's a part of me that doesn't want N/BPDx to even know that this psychiatrist exists. Every single mental health professional that N/BPDx has come into contact with, he eventually files a complaint against them with their professional board/association.

Paying child support is a major hot button for the courts, almost more than any other infraction barring actionable child abuse, etc.  Most courts would not be pleased about this.

Don't tell the court that you save half his CS, in case he retorts that he's giving too much CS.  Just say that without his CS you've had to use your Emergency Fund to pay expenses while he has stopped paying CS.  You may need to file paperwork for the CS before you appear for the Contempt of Court legal fees.  Do you have a state agency that pursues unpaid CS or is it left up to you?

Good point! Thanks FD.

My BPD radar tells me that he will pay. He has enough narcissism that getting the state involved over this will be too humiliating (he works for the state). We'll see.

I saw him driving this morning. He has a new car, which explains why I stopped seeing him around town. His old car was very distinct and easy to spot, and now he has a nondescript car. When he saw me, he had a big smile on his face 

it's going perfectly!

[reads rest of post]

oh.


grrrrrrrrrr