BPDFamily.com

Looking for some insight I guess... .but ... .how would a Non stay in a relationship knowing that they could never be sure if they were loved... .or even had been loved by the pwBPD for WHO they are? That EVERY relationship tha pwBPD has... .is ultimately the SAME trauma experience... .over and over... .that he/she has had before? ... .that... .in essence... .it is likely that they were chosen because they were available... .like others before... .That WHO they are is irrelevant in a  relationship with a BPD... .How does one live with that?

It's hard to accept that your are not special to the person that was so special to you. That's the bottom line though, no matter what they say, how they behave towards you shows you the truth. It is sad. It is difficult but if you want to feel truly loved be with someone healthy.

It's crazy because my non wife loves me more than anything and she has shown that so many times. I admit it still doesn't feel as intense as it did with BPDex but I have no doubts, no fears, no abuse, no manipulation and no lies.

To me this became the central issue and it's why I had to stop. I realized I wasn't special like he'd said I was. In the immortal words of Billy Bragg, "she should have been the last, but she was just the latest."

But I know how very very very hard it has been to get myself to accept what I can see clearly. Every fibre of my being wanted not to believe that. I think people stay because they are still inside that belief system. Once you step outside of it you can't ever really get back in. But people don't want to step out. The implications are so awful.

This is a tough one,  but it also depends on what out definition of love is. My therapist described it very pragmatically to me once.  We marry because we see something that we want, and he relationship can continue as long as both can get what they want from the relationship.  Anything north of us getting 8/10 of our wants is exceptional and rare.

The problem comes when we each are receiving 2/10. It's not sustainable. That's where I was when I separated from my wife 1 year ago.

Hi HarlyG,

You can't imagine how many times I've asked myself that same question during my time on these boards, reading the stories we've all shared with each other, seeing all the similarities. I truly admire the people who have decided to stay with their partners. I even wish I was one of them -- wish I had whatever grasp they have on "the tools," or could tap into the level of patience required, or could turn off my feelings and manage to not get hurt by the ongoing insecurities, accusations, insults, antisocial behaviors, etc.

But I've accepted that I just don't. I'm not capable of extending radical acceptance to a partner with serious emotional issues, because the person that I am is not willing to just grin and bear the chaotic impact of their illness on life, feelings and relationships with other people. I know that's on me, and I own it. I don't have to defend myself. It's my life, and I get to determine the level of conflict and discord I'm willing to accept in my relationships, and with my ex -- whether it was BPD or NPD or DID or some combination of any number of things -- it was woo much for me. It made me too unhappy to stay. If I could have, I would have, because I never had as much fun with anyone as I did with my ex. When things were good, we were really happy together. As she always liked to say, our relationship was "magical." You don't get to experience that with everyone, and it was special.

I'm still a member of the "dissenting" camp at bpdfamily -- in that I don't buy into the whole "they never loved you/the love was never real/we're just convenient" line of thought. I know that there are elements of that -- if my ex really does suffer from BPD, as many of her behaviors seem to support, then her thought processes and emotional world certainly includes a lot of the struggles that we discuss at length on these boards. But, did she love me? Yes. Did she really think that I was special, and that our love was special? Yes. Feelings aren't facts, but they are real. And, to someone with BPD, feelings are almost their entire reality -- so I know that the love that my ex felt for me, and expressed to me, and tried to fight to sustain with me was and remains very real. And it does make leaving the relationship a helluva lot harder than it would be had I, like, ya know -- just kinda liked her. I really loved this woman. I still do -- but I love both of us enough to NOT want to spend life together being in a continuous state of conflict.


I'm not really worried about the loss of the intensity of passion or "magic" that so many of us express here. For me, all I ever look for in any relationship is true, deep, trusting, abiding friendship. When I think I've found that with a woman, that's when I start to fall in love -- and falling in love has always been magical for me. When I find a woman who I feel really can be my best friend, everything else follows. Call me simple, but what's more magical than having a real friend who is also your lover?

patientandclear -- speaking of Billy Bragg! -- this lyric used to go through my head so often when I'd be arguing with my ex... .

I agree with you.  I think a lot of Nons aren't aware of the existence of BPD and if they are aware of BPD might not be fully read up on exactly what it entails.  So, the Non might not realize that he's not loved until it's too late (e.g., the relationship has ended, or he's been entrapped with marriage or kids).  

I would find it very strange for someone who is fully aware of BPD to knowingly enter into a serious relationship (including friendship) with a pwBPD.

Great post, eyvindr. Am in your 'camp' as well.

What's hard with this is that it's both. We were special and we were not.

Many exes wanted to stay but couldn't sustain the necessary closeness.

We'd like the answer here to be somewhere more in the middle but... .

Why did I stay? I loved her. Thought that would overcome anything.

Which I do believe is possible, but it takes two for a relationship to work.

I too am in the camp that they did/do/will/can love us. That is one of the reasons I let it continue and "stayed."

There seem to be a lot of reasons nons stay. As for me the exBPDgf can be like a challenge or puzzle which appealed to me. I am a risk-taking type with a lot of patience and apparently had a lot of love to give as well as being very passionate about many things.

During the most recent and longest recycle I stayed mainly through enertia.  A lot of the time I would think oh well we deserve each other... .make the best of it.

It's common around here to split the world into borderlines and nons, although as we know everyone's different and each of us has a constellation of traits on a continuum.  We've all gathered here because our exes all exhibit traits that so similar that it allows us to connect, while also realizing that it takes two to tango, and the 'relationships' we were in came out of what we each brought to the table.

That said, I'm a giver, especially in relationships, I will focus on giving before getting, and I have crossed the line into rescuing at times too, although I also know the difference and have caught myself.  I also realize the benefits of rescuing, I get to be superior in a sense and get the feel-good buzz of being a savior, although I've also realized that is an unhealthy dynamic in a relationship, which should be a partnership of equals to be healthy.  Anyway, when givers give and give, eventually we're going to ask where's mine?  A legitimate question, and I don't see an issue with going into a relationship focusing on the other person's wellbeing and caring about them, seeing what I can do to meet their needs, while also expecting the same in return.  My ex was very needy, borderlines in general are need-driven, because they're in pain.  It didn't take long for me to realize that this was going to be an all-give and no-take deal on my part, she didn't have the extra bandwidth or the awareness to focus on my needs or even be that aware of them.  So that's what really did it for me: I was not getting my needs met at all, in fact many of her behaviors seemed to intentionally not only not meet my needs but make them worse, which I now realize were tools she was using to feel better, it was always all about her, and I had a choice to take them personally or not, which I did for a time, but it was very freeing to just assign her actions to her and her needs.

Maybe a relationship is a continual analysis of whether or not the good outweighs the bad, or the tidbits of good were good enough to make the bad tolerable, in a disempowering relationship, a balance for each of us to decide on our own.  So to stay with a borderline, there's what happens and what we make it mean, and what would someone who is abused and disrespected, and not getting their needs met, make it mean?  What kind of reframing would they have to do to stay and make it OK?  Or is it just a replaying of a dynamic from their past and all too familiar and comfortable as a result?  I don't know, I just know in my case it was a give, give, give and then eventually wonder where's mine?  And an acknowledgement that my needs would never get met, which then caused me to address the difference between the fantasy in my head and the real relationship, what a wake-up call that was, and then make a decision and act accordingly.

That is exactly the conclusion I came to "what do I get?"

In Dec I actually asked the expgdgf "what am I getting?"  I gave and gave and like you say eventually asked where's mine?

How did she respond, nowwhatz?

She first responded by saying "me!"   

I then said "that's it?"

Then she said "I can't give any more."

A week later we broke it off.

[quote how would a Non stay in a relationship knowing that they could never be sure if they were ... .How does one live with that?[/quote]
Dear fellow user, rest assured that the ONLY thinh we can be sure of is that we were NEVER LOVED by them in the terms we understand as love. They needed us, but they didnt love us. It was an illusion, fake, fugazee, it never happened... .Except in our hearts... .and our minds.They might have big wishes to love us, but they couldn't because the disorder decided the outcome. It was never our fault, (neither theirs) it's the disorder.

It was doomed from the very start. I am sorry. We share the same fate. You come to terms with this hard reality grieving and accepting that the disorder won. We are not in the position to be angry at them, because they have a disorder, and that's the nature of the beast. I miss my girl so much... .I grieve everyday. I would do anything to re-unite, but that will not happen, and I try to accept it, and many times I fail miserably.

Radical acceptance, my friend!

Best of luck

I'm also in the camp of "they loved us in their way and it was real for them." BPD is, at its core, disordered emotional regulation and attachment. There's nothing there that prevents them from feeling love -- only from sustaining a healthy, intimate relationship.


This is definitely one of the hardest parts for me. Realizing that I wasn't special. I mean, I generally don't feel very special -- nihilistic and all that  -- but I wanted to feel special to my partner.

Now, that doesn't mean I don't believe he loved me. And it never bothered me to know that he loved women before me -- and I certainly don't expect he won't love anyone after me. Love =/= special.

No... .what made me feel that I wasn't special was realizing that, to him, I am not important because of who I am but for what needs of his I fulfill. I'm just another source of emotional and narcissistic supply. No one can be consistently "special" to a pwBPD because everyone is objectified.

Even if they do love who we are, they can't overcome the way their disorder makes them view the world and the people in it.


Exactly. It's just like the Matrix.  *)


|iiii

Everyone has their own individual, complex, and very real reasons for staying or leaving. We loved them. Some of us knew or suspected their mental illness and still loved them. Some of us had no idea and still loved them. They fulfilled something for us... .I like to call it "having the access code to the security panel of my soul." They are masters at what they do -- attaching emotionally so that they can survive. We have malignant hope, magical thinking, FOG... .and of course we have our own issues that drew us in and kept us there.

That's why I think it's so important to look at this... .not as a hypothetical "how could someone stay?" but more as "what made me stay with this person?"

One of the most chilling things my exBPD ever said was when she tried to comfort her 14 yo daughter, her first love had just commited suicide and when she told her mother about how he was her "soul mate " she replied

thats ok soul mates come along all the time

I knew nothing about BPD for the most part. A little bit on PD's due to being in medicine. In my r/s of 16 months, things got weird around 6-8 month mark. I knew something was wrong, but I guess I just made excuses for it. Thought i was doing something wrong. Guess i should have listened to my gut. Im about 5 months out now. Broke NC once. Weird how she feels nothing for me anymore. Just that quick. Hard to get my head wrapped around it.

Yes, this.  I think we have to be careful not to engage in the black and white thinking that our partners sometimes had.  There is a real temptation to do that.

I stayed, because I was blinded by my own ignorance. I didn't know what was going on. So I stayed, I recycled, broke up, again and again and again. I didn't know any better.

Once I spoke to someone about this and was pointed in the right direction, the veil of my ignorance quickly lifted and I began to see ALL of the signs and red flags that I had previously missed. It was insane how many there were, because there were dozens upon dozens of signs that I should have ejected much, MUCH sooner than I did. What should have been a 4 month relationship, turned into 18 months, of which only about 3 of them were really good.

You stay, because you don't know what's happening. Once you do, you realize you should have left a long time ago.

Earthbayne --

Thanks for sharing. Your experience sounds similar to my own:


In my case, I should have left at 6 months, but it turned into 3 years, and 3 subsequent break-ups, with lots of turmoil in between. But I so can relate to what you mean when you say, "I didn't know what was going on. So I stayed... .I didn't know any better... .You stay, because you don't know what's happening."

All I knew was that things kept breaking down, the same issues kept getting rehashed again and again and again and again with no resolution, even when I was sure we'd finally turned a corner, and we were both in a lot of pain.

Thank God for the pain. In the end, I think it's what finally gave me the strength to make the break. I kept feeling over and over, "I'm in love with this woman. It's not supposed to make us both so sad." There was way too much sorrow for me to bear.

In my case I believe with all my heart that my exBPD truly loved me.  I don't think the things he said or did were lies or games.  The love and emotional connection we shared during the good times was unmistakable.  That is what I'm struggling with now.  It has been 3 years and I compare everyone to him.  I haven't found anything even remotely close to the love I had with him... .and I crave it everyday.

Was he horrid and awful and evil?  Absolutely, but once I understood why I really viewed him with different eyes.  It was more difficult for me to be angry or upset, I got to the point that I felt nothing but deep compassion and sympathy for him during those 'bad' times.  I eventually left because I decided that my life was too valuable to possibly be taken away.  Was it hard?  Absolutely.  It still is.  What ultimately did it for me was imagining my Dad visiting me (at best) in a hospital, or (at worst) dead.  I couldn't bear to out my parents through that pain, so I put on my big girl pants and realized that I couldn't fix him, and took my life back. 

Did you think he would kill you?  What made you think this?   

I don't want to go into too many details on a public forum, as some things could easily expose his identity, but verbal threats escalated to physical contact and abuse... .and the worse it got, I realized one day he would snap.  I would be happy to PM about it, I just don't feel comfortable talking about it in the open.

I wish I had found this board when I was 18 ( now 33 ) I will list my relationships.

6 months ( suspected BPD )

2 Years ( BPD )

10 Years, mum to my 2 boys ( Def BPD )

6 months ( bi polar, BPD Traits )

6 months ( suspected BPD )

Yes I am not dating for a while now, I start therapy myself in 2 weeks time! I'm a pro at this dating game haha

Do they love?  Yes, I believe they do.  Is it love like we know it?  Sometimes it is; a lot of times not.  Because they live in the moment.  I believe my uBPDw loves me deeply, and I do her.  Yet I can no longer live with her actions and attitudes.  They have damaged me as a person, and as I have begun to get myself back on an even keel, I realize that I cannot continue to maintain this r/s and give myself the self-care I need.  After 34 years, I have given all to her I can give.  Therefore I am making plans to leave sometime this year, as soon as some of the financial and legal groundwork is in place. 

I have no idea how she will react or what will happen when the time comes to break up.  I hope it goes well, but I have read the "Splitting" book and many of the horror stories on here.  I don't wish to hurt her, and I am hoping against hope that she will feel the same toward me.  I think a part of me will always love her, especially as she is the mother of our children and, against everything I see on these boards, she has been for the most part a very good mother.  We have three well-adjusted grown sons and I give her a lot of the credit.  But I can't picture myself living the rest of my life from this point catering to her unquenchable, ever-changing needs and having nothing left of myself, for myself.  Her version of love is just too demanding and not reciprocal enough to sustain her share of the marriage any longer.

Wow... .yes. This is exactly what I started to realize towards the end of my r/s as well.

Nons stay for lots of reasons. Some is enmeshment - children, or houses or businesses together. Those who have been together a longer time and with those type of arrangements are much harder to walk away from. There has been so much more complex 'investment' in the relationship.

For those of us who had none of those anchors, some of us stay because we were 'glamoured' during the idealization phase, and tricked into thinking it would be like that for the rest of the r/s. And once the dysregulation started, we didn't understand what was happening or why (I did not even know there was such a thing as BPD... .). We assumed our partner was a normal, healthy person but couldn't understand why they began to act the way they did.

All of us stayed because we really did fall in love with them.

All of us stayed because we had codependency and need issues, and let someone treat us in a terrible way.

Those on the Staying & Improving board deserve a lifetime of medals. It was over for me in 1.5 years - only 1 year of that being dyregulation.

Same. 16 Months and and a lifetime of damage.

   I didn’t realize my ex had BPD until we broke up.  The break up was out of the blue and it was only after I started reflecting that I noticed there were very subtle clues.  I was so confused, devastated, and at a loss that I knew there was something I was missing.  I started asking questions seeing a T, and she stated that it sounds to me like your ex had BPD.  I had no idea what this entailed so I started researching the subject.  All of my despair, my sadness, my inquisitions, came to a screeching halt as the light turned on.  Everything I had been wrestling with suddenly made sense.  The revelation was bittersweet.  I felt so foolish for being so naive but relieved because I knew that I had given my all.

   I still wanted to stand by her side because I loved her.  I loved the person I knew she could be.  I loved the person I knew was inside of there.  It isn’t her fault she has BPD.  She was traumatized at such a young age.  Yes she makes her own choices but she has no moral compass guiding her.  I didn’t want to give her a free pass on everything, but I felt very strongly that with some help from a therapist, she could move mountains.  I didn’t want to just turn my back on her because she’s been through enough in life.  I didn’t want to be one more person that simply didn’t care.  If the roles were reversed, I’d want someone to love me enough to fight for me. To believe in me.  To hear my silent screams. 

   There in lies the problem.  I wanted it to be her and I versus BPD but at the end of the day, it’s just me vs her.  I would carry a torch for her if she was willing to get the help.  I’ve talked in great lengths to her about who she is.  I’ve broken down her emotional process numerous times.  She even states she thinks I know her better than she knows herself.  I’ve armed myself with the knowledge and I find it disturbing that she hasn’t.  I never said you have BPD, I’ve stated that there is something more going on with you and if you do a little research, it will open up a whole new world for you.

Standing by her side while she became more distant, cold, and callous was really wearing me down.  I felt like I was picking a scab every day because I was torn in 2.  I wanted to support her but I was trying to grieve the loss of her at the same time.  I wasn’t trying to reconcile or asking her to come back, but I couldn’t just act like everything was normal.  My life was blown to pieces and she was still skipping through the day.  She still hasn’t sought help from a T and so I’ve really distanced myself from her.  I told her a week before Christmas I needed some time to clear my head.  I’ve unfollowed all of her social media accounts and I never contact her.  I feel like I am finally starting to pick up the jagged pieces of my world but it is a very slow process.  Trying to comfort her while doing this was immobilizing the process. 

I know I strayed off topic and there’s really about 20397498752983 more things I could say, but love is fickle.  For me, it was literally like being tangled in a web.  Don’t get me wrong I love myself, I value myself, and I am a fantastic catch; But at the same time, my heart hurts for her because she was never given a fair chance to feel any of that.  Her child hood ripped her innocence away from her.  That isn’t fair to me.  Yes, I get the short end of the stick but the word selfless is defined for a reason.  The difference is if she can’t meet me half then I have to revoke my sympathy.  I’ve painted a pretty raw picture of ramifications her actions have had and she isn’t willing to budge.  I know i’ve done all I can and I am trying to absolve myself of any guilt I have regarding the situation.  If she would be willing to put in the work so would I, but she isn’t.

Agent - your story is my story. I did not even know there was an illness called BPD.

As much as we loved them and want to be there for them, we can't fix, rescue or help them. They have to want to do it for themselves, (and then actually do something), and sadly it takes someone way stronger than me to be around for that. Mine had been through some type of therapy I'm sure. She once said how much 'better' she was, but never articulated (and I never asked) exactly what that meant. I can't share my life with someone who is unable to give me the things I need from a relationship in a healthy way, and I wasn't prepared to sacrifice my life in continuing to make sure her needs were met. Because a relationship with a pwBPD is exactly that. We become a slave to their monster soul that has a never ending hunger.

At much as the illness is not their fault, as adults, they do have choices about what they do about it. For most, they do nothing. The burden of 'doing something' usually falls to the more aware non, who is trying desperately to learn new skills and tools so they don't have their soul ripped out. I still care very much for my ex, and have a great deal of compassion for her and the illness, but I can't be there as her partner, and I am struggling to be there as a 'friend' because true friendship is not even possible either.

I can't speak for everyone, but since I was on Staying for 3+ years, I'll explain my motivations for staying as long as I did.

When I signed up for this board the same day I got the official announcement of the diagnosis (it was strongly implied a couple of days sooner based on certain treatment decisions that were made), my exBPDw was in a psychiatric hospital in a partial hospital program.  She was referred to a DBT program and, for a time, kept up with it.  Without recapitulating years of posts, she eventually got thrown out of DBT, relapsed heavily and ended up self-injuring, cheating, binge eating, binge shopping, et cetera, et cetera.  She eventually went back to DBT, only to get thrown out again for not following their regulations.

While she was doing all of that, I was willing to work with her.  In fairness, there were periods where she showed substantial progress, and if she had continued on that line, well, I wouldn't be here right now.  That's what motivated me to stay.  When she fell off the wagon, I was tempted to leave.  Once the ledger had balanced towards leaving, well, I got my plans and money together to leave.  It isn't much deeper than that.

The thing is that the SOs of people on here are at different places.  Some refuse to get help at all.  Others are getting help for related conditions.  Others still aren't able to get formally diagnosed.  And once someone is diagnosed, they can take it in all sorts of ways.  I've seen people make it work for years, only for a relapse to blow it up.  Your mileage may vary, and it varies wildly.

Choices.  We all have choices and that is the very thing that led me away from the staying board.

I would have went through the darkest of days and the strongest of storms if she had made the choice to seek help.  After much consideration and weighing the pros and cons, I decided that I loved her enough to stand by her even though I knew our love would be on an uneven kilt.  The only contingency I had was that she seek help.  I never pitched this to her nor gave her an ultimatum.  I maintained a friendship with her but as the days went by I was sinking deeper in my despair while she went about her day.  Emotionally it just became too much.  I knew that although she stated she wanted to seek help she wasn't going to.

If she called me up today and said she was going to start counseling I would gladly stand by her side.  Not as a romantic partner at this point but at least someone in her corner.

Her having someone fight for her was so very important to me when in reality, she will always have someone in her corner.  She will always weasel her way into someone elses arms.  She will always seek refuge anywhere she can. Shell do whatever she needs to do to get by, she will always come first.

A lot of nons, I can't say all, have plenty of issues of their own which in turn makes these relationships perfect storms. Nons, a lot of times, have low self esteem, poor boundaries, little confidence and though, as you say, available, are really emotionally UN-available.

This "syndrome" sometimes comes to mind when I think of the dynamics of these relationships playing out for a non.

Boiling frog syndrome

If you place a frog in boiling water, it will immediately jump out of the pot. However, if you place a frog in a pot of cold or room temperature water that you heat slowly until it comes to a boil, the frog won’t notice until it’s too late and he eventually boils to death.

From what I've read the frog's metabolism keeps adjusting, when the water reaches warm it's comfortable but it reaches a point when the frogs metabolism is too far gone and it can no longer just jump out.

Fog

Poor boundaries

Lack of self care

Putting others needs above own

care taking


Or to put it another way... .

Codependency

Ding Ding Ding... .^^^^^^^^

Terrific fable, Suzn.


The longer I stayed, even though I was aware, the more I adapted to the varying levels of dysfunction. Of course it wasn't all bad -- if it had been, leaving (for me) would have been a no-brainer. It was the extremes of good that kept me in a state of hope that the extremes of bad could be overcome. In the end, after much time, I had to just learn the lessons of my experience being in a r-ship with her for 3 yrs -- which was pretty simple, because my ex's behavior was  nothing if not damned consistent -- consistently emotionally volatile. The good would never outweight the bad. At best, it would be 50/50. And she thought that was a reasonable ratio. I don't, so I left. It is a choice -- which my ex also used to argue with me about, insisting that there were no choices with "true love" -- the whole soulmate magical thinking trip. I lived with all of it until I couldn't anymore. That's the simple truth.

Whoever was first to find this fact about frogs... .I bet they had BPD.

Agent_of_Chaos and parisian --

Both of your descriptions here resonate with me:


As sad as I am to have lost the romantic relationship with my ex, I think I'm more saddened by the loss of the friendship that we could have had. Though, I've realized that what I'm sad about is not being able to be that great friend to her that she really needs and doesn't have, because most people aren't as patient as I am, and she won't let most people get close to her. I know she really loved me, but the BPD made being in a relationship impossible for me, because of the continual emotional ups and downs. So I chose to leave.

Sometimes, the hardest thing to do is the right thing to do.

We respond to these questions via lenses of trauma. Where we fall on the trauma scale influences our replies. Sinners and Saints, with relational expiry dates. Children corrupted through the malfeasance of adults--inheriting generational horrors as the cyclone twirls.

When the blue and red pill reflect the same underlying reality, it is both dream and nightmare.

We love the dream but hate the nightmare.

All within the same human-being.

I guess to answer the question, because I loved her. Thats why. I was a drone by then.