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She OWES me a reason, and frankly, an apology. I not only want this, I demand it I don't care what F*%$ing disorder she has. This is what adult human beings do... .I probably will not get one but she will not get her property back either - its out of sight in my basement. I know that sounds childish of me but I am ok with that.

I actually want to keep this stuff. I WANT to speak with her again if for no other reason that she do the right thing and provide me with her rationale for doing what she did. I'll use her property and anything that I have to in order to compel this. I have a large basement and it is no skin off of my nose to store it until she grows up and does the right thing. We are owed this from them.

Grim... .you are making a LOT of assumptions here. NONE of that is my intent at all, have you and I dated? lol

I want her to look me in the eye just one last time. And I want her to see the face that she inflicted so much pain upon. I want her to see the human face. I know her better than you or anyone else... .THIS is her supreme punishment. And she DOES owe me this... .so does yours. They HAVE the capacity, stop making excuses,

Your post was hardly helpful, in fact it was aggressive and inappropriate - true to your nom de plume. We are here to support one another. You came to apply YOUR assumptions and claim your superior command of this PD. Next time, ask questions and get to know the situation before you respond. THEN, think 'Primum non nocere'.

JRT, I seriously doubt you are going to get the closure you desire from your ex. She will probably do anything to avoid ever seeing you face to face again and even if you did are you really expecting a considered, rational explanation from her about what happened? There would just be more lies and gaslighting and you'd probably come away thinking you are the one with a disorder. You forget that a pwBPD is an emotional 5 year old and she sees you as the big bad wolf, I highly doubt that you will ever get the chance to have a face to face with her. She's most likely moving on with her excuse for a life , you must move on with yours.

Im a bit more on Grim's site with this one. All the times my ex has showed empathy, it was all just fake. The real person, she laughed about and painted her exes black to me, she laughed about and painted her friends black to me, even her family. She feels nothing for anyone, they're all full vessels to gain supply from until there's nothing to suck out of them anymore.

I'm sure she's doing the same thing with me to her new boyfriend.

As for her stuff, mine left some stuff at my house. I threw part of it out, and some stuff I liked (like a lamp) i kept. She won't get it back.

JRT, I seriously doubt you are going to get the closure you desire from your ex. She will probably do anything to avoid ever seeing you face to face again and even if you did are you really expecting a considered, rational explanation from her about what happened? There would just be more lies and gaslighting and you'd probably come away thinking you are the one with a disorder. You forget that a pwBPD is an emotional 5 year old and she sees you as the big bad wolf, I highly doubt that you will ever get the chance to have a face to face with her. She's most likely moving on with her excuse for a life , you must move on with yours.

I think GrimFellow may be rather blunt in communicating his assessment, but what we are all trying to tell you is this:

We can all recognize your anger - we've been there.  But we also recognize how your anger is actually a protective cover over the deep emotional wounds that she's inflicted on you.  It is much, much easier to feel that anger than to feel that excruciating pain.  As such, I personally think you should go with the anger for a while - it definitely numbs the pain.

What you're failing to recognize - and what different people are trying to tell you in different ways - is that even if you see her face to face you will NEVER get the closure you're seeking from this disordered individual.  She may, in fact, inflict deeper wounds than the ones you're already living with.

We all let go of our anger when we're ready - not before.  But be careful not to allow your anger to dictate your behavior - anger is not a place where rational, healthy decisions come from.

Yes... .your assumptions ARE far fetched as they relate to your and ONLY your situation... .perhaps there is some commonality with this one or that one but I hardly see how you can postulate whey your ex did to the man in the mud as a universal truth enough that you apply to me and my situation. Its like saying that since your engine failure was the carburetor then so should mine (when in reality its just a plug gone bad and mine still runs while yours will not turn over).

C'mon... .drop it... .we are all here to help, NOT be 'right'.

In fact my engine turned over some time ago my friend and it's not about being "right". I just want to spare you some sad moments in your life. I also understand where you are now because I've been there in pretty similar situation. Friend of mine suggested me at some point od my relationship with BPDex that I should try strict NC, but I refused.

There were always things to settle with my ex. Most of us call these things- FOG. I also wanted revenge, punishment but with BPDs it's not the case. Primarily because seeking for any kind of revenge keeps us in emotional connection with them. We give them attention through this and it's just what they want us to do. She can still play her role in this drama, she is still important to you somehow, if you want HER to look in your eyes full of pain as she will reclaim her property. YOU are still focused on HER trying to invoke HER guilt. But there ain't gonna be any guilt, and mark my ignorant words based on far-fetched assumptions.

SHE won't show YOU any compassion because it requires HER to become "this evil person". SHE is not evil in HER eyes blindfolded with defence mechanisms and element of narcissism present in BPD.

She will lose ultimatelly when you won't give her any attention. She don't deserve it, because of what she did to you.

Even in this particular moment of "punishing" her you will put yourself in a role of poor little victim crying for justice.

You want to show yourself as a victim of her?

YOU are STRONG and you will prove it by getting over it, not by desperately seeking for compassion and attention from abuser.

That's all I had to say. You can deny me "being right", I don't care for it anyway. Maybe you must go your own way to find out that despite differences and similarities between our relationships with different BPDs toxic attachment is always the same.

NC and working on YOURSELF means HEALING from this misery my friend.

Happy trails :)

Do you know what my goal is from seeing her face to face? I really appreciate the input but I am really amazed at how many people have applied their understanding and situational experience against mine. This is not one-size-fits-all templates folks. My relationship does not fit the common dynamic that I find most people discussing with their BPD nor does my way of coping or the goals I have for closure. Spare the lectures... .don't need those.

":)o you know what my goal is from seeing her face to face? I really appreciate the input but I am really amazed at how many people have applied their understanding and situational experience against mine. This is not one-size-fits-all templates folks. My relationship does not fit the common dynamic that I find most people discussing with their BPD nor does my way of coping or the goals I have for closure. Spare the lectures... .don't need those."

And now I think we've reached the heart of it. You're not done. You still talk about the relationship in the present tense. You refer to her as "mine" and you're searching for signs through various posts to see when she might come back. But what is coming across to you as judgment is actually deep soul-blinding empathy. We feel your pain, the way she left you was terrible. But we also feel your future pain. She will not be sorry. And we hope to help you spare yourself that. I have had this disorder in my family, in friends, in an ex. In my children's lives and the one thing across the board has been that you can't reason with them. You've posted this yourself to support other members. But you expect the situation with your ex to be somehow different. Please ask yourself if you're truly seeking closure. I will never ever ever get closure like you're talking about from my family member. They will never validate me. And they're my parent.

And "support" from other members doesn't mean "saying what you want or need to hear". It means lifting you up and if you need help seeing the outcome of your actions, we'll say something. Not judging.

Closure with BPDs happens entirely in your own heart and mind and completely away from them. 

When my ex came to get a ''couple'' things over a month ago it was hell.

She projected and blamed me for everything.She looked insane and angry and failed to own anything on how she was acting,feeling or behaving.

It was kinda spooky to see how she was able to avoid any and all personal responsibility for anything.At this point I was shell shocked on her level of denial and blaming everyone for her sickness.

It ended in a yelling match and she then left.It was just going round and round and round.There was no end in sight.Once I shined the spot light on her she became more and more angry and more projection.

It did not go as I would of liked it to go.

Well, yeah... .this is the undecided staying or leaving forum right?

No JRT, this is the Leaving board where members are working to detach. Ergo, all the advice of letting things go that keep us attached.

You could be very right and it's a good point about leaving crumbs to you with your ex leaving her stuff. However, placing value on things because of what WE would place value on is hoping or thinking they think like we do. There's a difference. And it doesn't even matter if that person is BPD... .this is a statement can be applied in general. We are ALL different, we ALL place value on different things.

Likewise you are making assumptions regarding the nature of our relationship... .the breakup was ruthless I'll agree with that. But the balance of it was the best relationship that I ever had. She did not treat me as many of the non's I see here have been treated. There was no tumult and we rarely - if ever- argued. We had lots in common and did everything together.  I was entirely happy albeit with some problems that needed work.

Your ex sounds similar to my ex, an idyllic r/s, like you, we rarely argued, spent almost 24/7 together, I didn't get to see her temper, she apparently turned everything inward, I'm tempted to say it was the best relationship I've ever been in, at least that's how it felt at the time. It truly felt like she was "the one" I'd been waiting my entire life for which is why the end was so horrific for me too. Two weeks before she ended it she told her father "I've never loved a man like I love him" 14 days later 100% silent treatment.

After doing a lot of research on BPD and talking to a BPD sufferer I now know that the whole thing was a fiction, it was her acting out a fairytale, there was no reality to it. You fell in love with a myth that YOU created in your head because of the way she presented herself. You believed her words, but were they backed up with acts of love? A pwBPD cannot love because real love first requires self love and a pwBPD detests themselves. Theirs is a world of soppy words but there are few acts of love. I realised that all my ex could ever give me was her body and she did give that freely, did she ever do the little things that people who love do? no. Did she ever ask how I was doing and actually listen and empathise with how my life was going? no. Once you understand that the whole r/s was more than likely an unsustainable fiction you will be a step closer to getting better. She made you feel like you were a million dollars and you are angry that was ripped away from you, but as hard as it is to believe, it was a fiction, there was no reality to it, for a while, you were just another attempt of hers to fill a hole that cannot be filled.

After doing a lot of research on BPD and talking to a BPD sufferer I now know that the whole thing was a fiction, it was her acting out a fairytale, there was no reality to it. You fell in love with a myth that YOU created in your head because of the way she presented herself. You believed her words, but were they backed up with acts of love? A pwBPD cannot love because real love first requires self love and a pwBPD detests themselves. Theirs is a world of soppy words but there are few acts of love. I realised that all my ex could ever give me was her body and she did give that freely, did she ever do the little things that people who love do? no. Did she ever ask how I was doing and actually listen and empathise with how my life was going? no. Once you understand that the whole r/s was more than likely an unsustainable fiction you will be a step closer to getting better. She made you feel like you were a million dollars and you are angry that was ripped away from you, but as hard as it is to believe, it was a fiction, there was no reality to it, for a while, you were just another attempt of hers to fill a hole that cannot be filled.

Only one day later, her FRIEND contacts me via IM to see if she can pick it up (I refused insisting that my ex and my ex only will be the only one that I release it to accompanied by an explanation as to why she did what she did... .NON negotiable)... .I heard nothing back... .the entire exchange was childish and silly... .I wonder if it was ex just using her GF's account.

Hmmmm?  Seems to me that if you wanted rid of the stuff you would have let her friend take it?  I don't understand why you should not negotiate?  I think it might be worth asking yourself why is it so important to you that this trunk of stuff be collected?  If it was a whole houseful and it was in your way that would be a bit annoying, but there is something else here I think... .

My exbfwBPD always brings stuff to my house, and when he goes it gets left behind.  He has often told me to dump it, but instead I've meekly packed it all up and delivered it to him, or his mother or a storage unit somewhere.  This time I've not been able to deal with it yet, too difficult and upsetting, and its different because it really is over. 

I realised that his leaving possessions behind was part of the game that he was unwittingly playing.  His stuff and what I chose to do with it was important because if I did as he said and dumped it, or what I'm tempted to do having been left financially in a mess by him and sell it, it would prove further that I don't love him, don't care and that he is therefore unlovable... . 

All of their negative behaviour it seems to me is aimed at getting us to reject and abuse them... .and to be part of their crazed game playing.

3.0 DISCUSSION FORMAT:bpdfamily/bpdfamily.com is set up as a collegium. We follow a Collegial Discussion format which is characterized as having "authority" vested equally among colleagues/peers. As such, members present their ideas in "collegial harmony" and the credibility of their positions are based solely on the quality of the points they advance in writing. Diversity is to be embraced - there is often much to be learned from others views and perspectives.

Please note that collegial discussion is different than debate. Debate is an argument or a discussion generally ending with a vote or agreement on the best decision. In debate, unity is the objective. Members are discouraged from debating and arguing against others' positions, questioning the wisdom of others, or restating of their position repeatedly.

This had to be really hard.  Things like this sting like hell.  It will sting for a long time.  

Why did she leave the way she did?  

Things most likely were building with her for a while. The end action was impulse and not likely well thought out - but it ties back to something.  Right?

And going NC on you was for a reason.  She's not insane.  It makes sense to her given what she is facing.  I can't guess why, but most likely it was to avoid answering for what she had done.  Fear?  Shame? Guilt? Right?

The harder you try to see her now and try to get her to confront the matter, the more she is going to avoid you.  And if you corner her, she is going to fight you you?

We've all been in this mode at some point in or life - you know the feeling - at least in part.

1> what was it that was a common theme is the last stages of the relationship?  What was mostly bothering her?  You know this.  Can you share it here?  Even if its a few things.

2> why did she NC you?  You know her.  You know how she reacts.  What is driving it?  Fear?  Shame? Guilt? Obligation?  Can you at least say what it wasn't and what it might have been?  Can you share it here?  

Let's talk it out.  Let's step back from the horrible wound and the surrounding emotion, and get what you already know on the table.

"Crushed,

    My heart goes out to you on this. I think we’ve all been there. When you answer the emails and demand reasons (and apologies) for the inappropriate behavior and they don’t come- it can be devastating.

Many people who get into a relationship with idealization and mirroring can feel life affirmed in the beginning, almost as though this was a holy anointment.  And in the end, when it appears to be just a façade, it can cause such despair that one can only compare it to Hell.

The aftermath of this goes in stages; the back and forth; and having it get worse- only to spiral down and crash.  Then when you’ve crashed, you really want the pain to go away, and the only thing that you know will take that pain away is the proof that you were really loved in spite of it all, (in spite of the disorder.)  But this person can’t take away your pain when they are the cause of it and your uncertainty about that is sometimes outweighed by your hopefulness - and this is what needs to be addressed.

And at a certain point we all feel shame for not being able to “fix” the disorder.  And the more you read about addiction, the more you’ll understand that it really is about a “fix.” Uncertainty versus hope equals bargaining and denial of the dilemma can lead to toxic shame.  All of these “psychology today” terms that really stem from a spiritual wound that needs healing. There are reasons for this.

The BPD partner is really a representative of what you think will “fix” your spiritual wound.  If you have Love- you are lovable. If your love is taken away, you feel unlovable and you don’t want to live. After all, what is life *worth living* for if you were never truly loved?

So the catch-22 of all of this is that the person who said they loved you actually doesn’t understand love- they only know need.  They don’t know what stable love is- otherwise they would feel it- you would feel it and the entire World would be Glorious, but this is a disorder. You’ve got to respect that.

And the truth of the matter is that you’ve also got to intellectually understand that you fell in love with a person that has a distorted belief system that causes them to have a pattern of unstable interpersonal behavior. The behavior is triggered by you due to intimacy, and it is their wonky way of a coping mechanism for the thoughts of persecution and bondage to a punitive parent that exists in their head. Lying and impulsive behavior and anger and fear and projection are all part and parcel of the disorder. It’s not reasonable to think you are no longer loveable because of the disorder’s distorted beliefs. You are loveable. The disorder wouldn’t have been triggered otherwise.

Hopefully, you know that you are very important. Your importance means that in the aftermath of this failed love- there is still love for yourself that has to be lit from within. If it isn’t, the need to hand it over to another person for safe keeping is too much responsibility, especially for someone who is unstable. You must have self-love despite the fact that another human being appears unable to carry your love. In all likelihood, both of you had great intentions for love, but the unstable belief system guaranteed an outcome that did not support trust and faith. This is a disorder. I’m very sorry and I know it hurts.

I know you feel down right now. This is completely appropriate given the circumstances, but I’m here to tell you – you will get through this. There is a resolve inside of you that will not be extinguished. It is a flame that exists in spite of your heartache and you will keep it alive, because there are many people out there who will love you- you just need to give them a chance. Day by day, every person you meet gives you the possibility for love. The despair you feel right now- it will pass, I promise. But first, we need closure on your spiritual wound. Your despair is about a lack of closure, and this back and forth just rips the scab off. So how do we suture you up? What is the best method of closure?

For most people, closure is an action word - you take action by closing the door to someone who has hurt you- especially someone who has hurt you multiple times. And for most people, this is very hard to do. You’ve held out hope for so long and the back and forth is keeping that hope alive, but it’s also spiritually draining.

No contact is saying that you don’t want to be hurt anymore and you want (or at least attempt) a better future. The hope is something you give yourself. That’s self-preservation and self love and it’s the effort you make to keep that tiny flame alive inside of you despite the fact that another person has hurt you. You may fall off the wagon and break the no contact agreement, but it will eventually work its way through and the door will be closed. Then you must grieve.

The best you can hope for is that someday you will find peace from the aftermath (now known as an interaction rather than a relationship) An interaction with someone who needed you for the wrong reasons, (not the right ones) which supported a disordered belief system where you were assigned a role to play. You’re going to have to accept that this wasn’t supposed to be a lifelong commitment and that’s a GOOD thing you realized this sooner rather than later.

You will eventually accept that the closing of doors lead to the opening of others, and you will wistfully admire your commitment to try and love this person, while realizing the futility of your efforts and still ask yourself the hard questions about why you were willing to love in such a way that you were willing to turn against loving yourself.

It will get better. Day by day. Give it time. And please don’t ever give up. Hope you keep posting. "  

One


Is it accountability you want, or a repeat of previous "reuniting" dynamic?

I WISH THAT I COULD ANSWER THAT DEFINITIVELY... .I DON'T KNOW... .THIS WAS A MAJOR KICK IN MY MY SOUL AND HEART... .I AM AFRAID THAT I WILL NEVER FELT HE SAME WAY OR HAVE TO SLEEP WITH ONE EYE OPEN ... .BUT I AM WILLING TO TRY IF SHE IS WILLING TO PUT IN AN EFFORT

From your response I see that you understand that forcing a meeting against her will is going to drive her further away and if you corner her it will solicit a very negative reaction - not BPD, just human nature.  She pulled away and you have tried to circumvent and its a battle.

I CAN SEE THAT

Probably not a good idea to stay on this path. Agree?  If you really want to talk to her, you have to lay back and let some of this emotion subside. Maybe the first step is giving her her stuff with no strings attached - just make it happen for her with you far in th background.

I WOULD AGREE, YES. BUT IF IT WERE HER PLAN AS A LIFELINE OF SORTS BACK TO ME, WOULDN'T THAT FRUSTRATE HER? WOULDN'T THAT MEAN THAT I AM TRULY ABANDONING HER? ITS STRONG SYMBOLISM: HERE IS YOUR STUFF - I DON'T CARE. SEE YA. (?)

I'm not telling you what to do - just saying that if you want to communicate with her at some point the wall need to come down and this is one way to start that process.  If punishing her is your goal, then this advice might feel like a lost opportunity. I DON'T FEEL THAT... .I APPRECIATE THE ADVICE. BUT WHAT IS KEEPING UP THE WALL? AND WHY SO HIGH?  

Do you want to punish?  :)o you want to talk? PART OF ME WANTS TO HURT HER AS BADLY AS SHE HAS HURT ME AND MY DAUGHTER. I HAVE HAD DAY DREAMS ABOUT WHAT I WOULD DO TO HER IF I SAW HER AGAIN. BUT I AM NOT LIKE THAT, CANDIDLY, I AM STILL IN LOVE WITH HER (ALTHOUGH WITH A NEW AND HIGHLY TARNISHED DYNAMIC) ... .BUT IW WOULD LIKE TO TALK

Two

OK, moving on. She was stressed. We know pwBPD are at their worst when stressed.  Having doubts is a normal thing for any pending marriage - harder for a pwBPD.  

How serious were the doubts?  You say the hurdles had been cleared, but was she was optimistic as you?  Was she pushing for the marriage or were you?  Were you 1 step ahead or her?  A half step? Could she have been feeling too much pressure?

ON MY PART? I NEVER FELT REALLY SECURE WITH HER AFTER THE FIRST RECYCLE. I HAD THE SENSE THAT IT WOULD HAPPEN AGAIN. THAT 'I WILL FOLLOW YOU TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH' FEELING WENT AWAY AND NEVER CAME BACK.

THE HURDLES WERE MAJOR PROJECTS: HER SONS GRAD PARTY WAS ONE OF THEM... .WE HAD WORKED FOR WEEKS IN ORDER TO PREPARE FOR IT... .THEN BUILDING SOME FURNITURE OFR HIS DADS HOUSE... .SOME TRIPS WE TOOK AS WELL TOOK FOCUS AWAY ... .I WAS COMFORTABLE WITH THE WEDDING AND I THINK THAT SHE WAS AS WELL... .WE WENT TO GET OUR RINGS MADE... .SHE WAS SHOPPING FOR DRESSES AND HAD HER MIND MADE UP ON THEM... .WE BEGAN TO CONSIDER VENUES (ARRRRG! THIS FRUSTRATES ME JUST TO REVISIT!)... .SO I WOULD SAY THAT WE WERE IN LOCKSTEP... .WE ALWAYS WERE FROM THE VERY BEGINNING... .WE WERE BOTH MARRIAGE MINDED... .HOWEVER, I NEVER RECALL HER ROMANCING THE IDEA OF BEING MARRIED TO ME... .NO TRYING THE LAST NAME ON FOR SIZE IN FRONT OF ME OR STUFF LIKE THAT... .PERHAPS SHE WAS LOOKING FORWARD TO BEING MARRIED (BUT NOT NECESSARILY TO ME)

Three

Are you wanting to mend this relationship or accept its devise. If its the former, you are a standing in the wrong stadium (Leaving).  This is not the place to get advice on recovering a relationship - try Staying.  If it is the latter, then you may want to be more open to others thoughts back here. If they say something that doesn't align with your thinking, work through it with them.  We often learn the most from the people the people that see things differently than we do.

I AM THE TYPE THAT SEE POSSIBILITY; THERE IS ALWAYS HOPE. I WISH THAT I COULD SALVAGE SOMETHING THAT TOOK TWO YEARS TO BUILD... .IT REALLY WAS A GOOD RELATIONSHIP. HER FLIGHT IS PERPLEXING. IN TERM OF FORUMS, I AM NOT SURE I AM IN THE RIGHT PLACE EITHER BUT WITH HER POSTURE, I HAVE NO IDEA THAT I EVEN HAVE A CARD TO PLAY IN TERMS OF STAYING.

In the end, what you do - hold the property or return - is for you to decide.  We all respect you and your right to chose.   :)

WELL I APPRECIATE THAT AND THE ADVICE... .OUTSIDE OF GIVING OR KEEPING HER STUFF, I DON'T SEE HOW THAT I CAN EFFECT ANY SORT OF REAL OUTCOME HERE... .<SIGH> WHAT WAS THAT cAGNEY LINE ABOUT GIN JOINTS?

One


Is it accountability you want, or a repeat of previous "reuniting" dynamic

JRT, please read this very carefully. It is one of my favorite posts written by a very respected member known as "2010". I strongly suggest you read this person's posts. It was written by someone much more intelligent that I am, but at the same time someone who has a great knowledge about the disorder we are dealing with.

Anger is pretty much what we deal with here, among other states of spirit and mind. There will be more stadiums through which you will go in this painstalking process.  But here you may  find some answers (ones that  you will never get from her).

Best of luck, stay strong.

So was that remark... .we are here to support one another, not judge. I would appreciate if you kept nonconstructive opinions such as this one to yourself.

Its hard to come across practical advice... .this is the best that i have received... .thanks you

Thank you as well FM, I appreciate your input and know that you mean very well.

I burned my exes things in the front yard. It's the least I can do for someone who used and abused me! And don't even have the backbone to face me. I've never in my life acted this way. Now she has no reason to stalk me anymore. I do not think it's worth it JRT. She is not going to tell you the truth. Give her one month to get stuff if she don't burn it, throw it away or whatever. I feel you man. Your not the immature one here. You demand answers and that's your right!

You are welcome. Since reading the site tonight I've started to ruminate again since a lot of posts resonate. I feel like in order for me to have gotten over her she's dead to me. I can't even think of the good aspects without feeling a little sickly. The idealisation is an addictive place to be... .but it's always over so soon and the bad outweighs the good. Now that I don't feel pain I don't want it back. I've realised during my introspection tonite that I zone her out as a defense mechanism as if I had to let her words affect me or our eyes met and she had pain in them, I could be doomed again. Another replacement will be along shortly then she will avoid me again which I like.

Mine was brutal the way that she broke up, but the rest of it was quite idyllic.

I still have not figured it all out... .still too many missing pieces... .but it is like someone came and killed my best friend... .no one close to me understands this and they have, frankly, stopped being interested in hearing anything about it long time ago... .