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So DH and his ex just went back to court earlier this year to discuss parenting time, he was asking for 50/50 time that he did not have. We ended up getting that but I noticed in the agreement it doesn't specifically spell out that they split winter break. In the past they have always split the break. For instance last year he sent an email that went like this:

Dear ex

How would you like to split up the winter break. I was thinking I would have them on xyz dates and you on 123 dates based on how the holidays fall. This way we both get to utilize the break with the kids. I have to put in for vacation days so please let me know by x date.

she responded with... .I will have them to you by 1pm and I guess I don't have much choice. I think it's ___ty of you to take them away for pretty much all of DD's Christmas break, but its what I've come to expect from you. 

Now mind you they have two kids not just DD but a DS who she has referred to as "the boy" before. Also with the way it worked out she ended up with one more day of the break than we did. I can't stand the victim role it makes me 


Now this year since she has not been as accommodating since the modification we are worried that since the agreement doesn’t state they split the break that she will be a pain and say she isn’t splitting. For instance the break is 14 days total. With her 2 holidays falling during our time she ends up with 9 days of the break and us only 5…which sucks.

We are planning early as we are going out of town and need to make travel arrangements. A week ago he sent the same type of email as above but didn’t think to put a date to hear from her by. So several days go by she addresses other things from that email which we resolve but ignores the break question. In these texts DH asks again and she says she will have to look into it. Yesterday still nothing so he emails again saying I haven’t hear back from you regarding break, if I don’t hear back by Saturday I will assume that these plans work for you and I will plan accordingly.

So if we don’t hear back which we are thinking we won't, do we just go out of town and do our thing since she didn’t respond? What is the worst that could happen? I also hate having to "wait" on her for anything but at this point going to court again to make a modification like this will be draining and cost money when she usually buckles and does whatever we suggest anyway. Anyone with experience in these situations have other ideas?

So we heard back and of course she said "no I will not be swtiching or giving up extra time during the holidays". So now we are of course wondering what action do we take.

1. get the attorney involved again so that something can be written in about splitting winter break

2. get a free mediator involved and try to do it that way

3. use the part of the agreement that is on our side that states... .Both parents can exercise extended time during the school year so long as it doesn't interfere with a holiday, day of special meaning or formal education. we can email her and just pick a few dates in December around the holidays that are her days and let her decided. We will have to rework our travel plans but that's ok.

Don't BPDs get tired of being so resentful and bitter?

Well one big lesson here is to focus on getting things very specific in the court order;  don't assume that everything can be worked out nicely with someone who has BPD or whatever.

But now... .

What usually works for me is to send an e-mail stating what I will do.  I need to figure out a plan that I think will work well for everyone - the kids, their mom, and me, and others who may be involved, like their mom's family.

Once I figure that out, I usually run it by the kids - mine are in high school now - and make any changes needed because of their schedules and their preferences.

Then I send an e-mail to their mom, stating what I will do.  Not a list of options;  not a question as to what she would like;  not a proposal;  a statement of what I will do, and a very brief and simple explanation as to why.

"I need to travel for work Friday, returning Saturday morning.  I will pick up the kids at noon Saturday, and bring them back next Saturday the 11th at noon."

This gives their mom the opportunity to push back, if there is some reason I'm not aware of.  Once in a while, she responds with something like, "My sister will be here Saturday so I would prefer the kids stay til noon Sunday." and I can say OK to that.

99% of the time, though, she responds either with "OK" or doesn't respond at all.  She knows that I have done my homework, and I have reasons for what I'm planning - if she asks more about my reasons I answer very briefly and politely.  She doesn't want to do the homework to figure out the plan, so she just accepts what I say I will do.

She's passive-aggressive, so if I phrase anything as a request for action from her, she can road-block it by giving excuses or just not responding, and then we have an impasse.  So I carefully avoid any request that she do anything, and phrase it always as what I will do.

In your case, since there is already an air of conflict about the issue, you might have to say what you will do, and let her know what your boundary is - that is, what you will do if she doesn't cooperate:

"I will pick up the kids at noon on December 20th and return them at noon on December 25th.  If this isn't OK, please propose something else.  If I don't hear from you by November 1, I will assume this is OK."

or

"I would like to avoid the need for mediation on this issue, or going back to court.  I will plan to pick up the kids at noon on 12/20 and return them at noon on 12/25.  If you would like to split the winter break in a different way, please let me know what you would like by e-mail by November 1."

If she doesn't respond, then on November 1 it could be reinforced, by sending her another e-mail with the first one at the bottom:

"Please see below.  I will pick up the kids at noon on December 20 and return them December 25."

Worst case, she won't respond, but when you try to pick up the kids, she will fight about it or call the police.  Then you have to walk away, and file a motion in court, to get the specifics in the court order.  At least you'll then know that court is the only effective way to deal with the issue... .

Does your order set a limit to vacation lengths, totals or frequency?  My county specifies up to 3 vacations per year not to exceed a total of 3 weeks and a single vacation cannot be more than two weeks.  It also states that vacation notices (note: they are notices and not 'requests' must be sent by certain dates: "for extended time at spring break, by February 15 of each year; for extended time in the summer, by May 15 of each year; and for extended time at Christmas, by November 1 of each year."

Even that clarity caused problems for me in the past.  One summer I declared a two week vacation to the Rocky Mountains starting on my weekend and, since we alternated weekends, ending on my weekend.  I specifically listed only 2 weeks in the dates but I did have my weekends at both ends.  As you can expect, she complained in court that she couldn't see 'her' son for over two weeks.  And the court stated, 14 days is the maximum for a vacation.  Hmm, so what was I to do?  I had already listed just 14 days in the vacation notice.  Was I to hand them over to her on my weekend once the vacation ended?

I understand that you're trying to be less confrontational so as not to trigger the chaos and obstruction.  If that works, great, but if not then be sure to (1) send your Notice by proper and provable methods before the due date and (2) avoid encroaching on her scheduled holidays.  Be aware that many courts list a multitude of holidays and some are for less common groups or circumstances.  It should be okay to ignore those that don't apply or haven't been observed in the past.

For example, my court holiday schedule included a variety of holidays beyonf the Big Five or Ten.  Kwanzaa and Hanukkah were among those neither of us had observed before.  That is, until I sent her a vacation notice I would take a 6 day vacation out of state with our son taking all the time between her two court ordered holiday times that winter, from Dec 25 to Dec 31.  You can guess, she just had to sabotage me.  She wrote back that she wanted her holiday time on Dec 26, Kwanzaa, which would have cut my vacation to about 4 days, giving me maybe one day at my destination.  So I decided to cancel.  It was addressed in court about 3 months later and her reason in court testimony - which the court decision termed "not credible" - was that she wasn't of Jewish descent but she still wanted to observe it.  Duh, she knew so little about it that she didn't even know it was for African Americans!  However, when questioned by my attorney about Jewish Kwanzaa, she did get it right that both used candles, probably by accident.

I'm really surprised your order doesn't more thoroughly cover holidays. Having firm guidlines around these are especially important because major holidays tend to be very triggering for people with PDs.

Does she have any legal reason to need to comply with a request for mediation? Is that in the order somewhere?

With option one, do you want your L to contact her L about it? If her L is reasonable and can convince her client that it's in her own best interest ti work with you for legal reasons that might help.

I don't know if quoting the order and then giving her options for dates is going to help. I know the BPD I must deal with does not handle options well at all and she just ignored the order whenever she was in a position of strength and it suited her,


I'm going to borrow a page out of Dreamgirl's book and say that it's entirely possible that her desire to have the jids for more of winter break is less about hurting an ex and more about getting more time with the kids. If you've just gone to 50/50 that means she's lost something.

You can make yourself crazy trying to sort out somebody else's way of thinking, especially if their thinking is twisted.

The challenge is to figure out a way to deal with her that will work.

I had to go to the mat once, over a big issue - relocation.  I told her my plan - to move and take the kids, and help her financially if she wanted to move too.  She said no and cited the court order.  We went to mediation - several sessions - nothing accomplished.  So I had to tell her, "I will file a motion tomorrow, to change from 50/50 to primary custody, and to allow me to move.  And I will disclose all the stuff you would prefer not be in the public record." - she had committed several crimes such as assault and lying under oath.

She backed down, and I never had to do that again.  Since then, it's all about doing my homework, developing a good plan, and telling her what I will do.

You might have to go to the mat once too, to establish what you are willing to do if necessary.

I wrote our custody order which the judge copied and used since ex offered nothing. I have every holiday spelled out. Thanksgiving, Christmas, and Easter holidays are 50/50. If there is an odd number of days then that extra day is rotated year to year. I gave ex the extra day to start. It seemed the easiest way since she "won" that time.

The fact that you have an order that says 50/50 should not be a problem but my ex found problems with our order too. I simply state the order, in an email, and let her do the math. Example: This Christmas has 14 days. The order states 50/50 so both parents have 7 days and nights.  or  This Christmas has 15 days. The last Christmas with an odd number of days had mother with the extra day. This time father has the extra day.

I let ex figure out thedaysIf they add up okay than I simply agree. If they do not I point out the discrepency and let her figure it out. If she doesn't figure it out in two tries I then send an email with it figured out. Yes,these scenarios have all happened. I am actually surprised when things work the first time. I figure she either gets some kind of engagement feelings or is simply looking for a fight.

Matt is right about going to the mat. I think it is a way to establish a boundary that my ex doesn't like.

so here is the exchange with her on this subject... .

DH to EX - Break – Last year we split the break up between us and would like to work together to do the same this year. The break runs Dec. 22nd – Jan. 4th. With the current schedule, your Xmas and New Year holiday fall on my Thursdays, you end up with them 9 days of the 14 day break. I was hoping to get them on the 29th and 30th as I am off of work, giving us both 7 days of the break.

DH to EX a week later - I have not heard back from you concerning winter break. Am I to assume that these plans are ok? I will assume that if I don't hear back from you by Saturday that they are. Thanks

her response -  No, i will not be swtiching or giving up any days or giving up any time during the holidays. have a great day.

His response - Thank you for responding. Per the parenting agreement let this stand as my 60 day written notice that I will be exercising my right to extended parenting time on December 29th and 30th. Per the agreement specifications, these dates do not interfere with schooling or your christmas/New Years  day holidays. If you have any questions let me know, thanks

Her response - No, you have already used your two weeks of vacation/extended time. The agreement does not indicate that you can say you want "extended time" whenever you want. It is limited to 2weeks per year. I do not agree to allowing more. It is interfering with my Holiday plans. 

His response - please see below, this is from the agreement.

vacation/Extended parenting time

1. Two

(2) weeks of uninterrupted

parenting time each year are to be

arranged in one week

increments by each parent.  The

Mother and Father shall provide the other parent with not

less than sixty (60) days advance written notice to avoid

planning conflicts. The Mother’s choice of vacation has

priority over the Father’s choice in even numbered

years and the Father’s choice has priority in

odd numbered years.  Parents who cannot resolve vacation

scheduling conflicts may file a motion in the

Court.  A parent may arrange

extended parenting during the school year, provided that the

scheduled time does not interfere with the holiday parenting

time of the other parent or the formal education of the

minor child, unless otherwise agreed to in writing by the

parties.

If the 29th and and 30th do not work for you, how about the 3rd and 4th of January?   If you are not agreeable I will seek mediation/court.

her response - The section you are citing implies that   the two week extended parenting time could be during the school year if it doesn't interfere with school/ holidays. It doesn't mean that you gave an unlimited amount of time that you can just tell me your taking the kids even though I've said no.  I'm not sure why you expect me to give up my time with the kids just because I have them on the holidays this year.  If you want to EXCHANGE times for the 3rd and 4th of January. I will take the kids on the 13th and 14th of December or the 28th and 29th of November.  I will not just give up my time.

his last response - That is not how I read that portion of the agreement but will seek clarification. Two things I would like to resolve.

1. My asking about time over the winter break is having the opportunity to travel with the kids while they are out of school for an extended weekend. Since you are willing to swtich dates I am happy to exchange the 28th and 29th of November for the 29th and 30th of December so that I can take advantage of a long out of town weekend, during one of my holidays with the kids.

2. Separately I would like to address this issue for future years that we both split the winter break up in a way that we both have time with the kids and can each enjoy time off of with them while they are off school. We have done this the past couple of years which has set a precedent in making sure we both get time with the kids during their break. Obviously depending on how holidays fall and how our scheduled weekends fall will determine the split up of the days and I am open to working with you if you to need to switch up the days depending on how the calendar falls or what upcoming plans for the kids might be.

Hopefully we can find a way to resovle this, rather than having to take time out for court/mediation which I will do should we not be able to come to some sort of agreement. Thanks


I can see that he and I may be reading the agreement differently than she is but it is not 100% clear. Not sure what we could have done differently? This isn't about the kids or what she has going on it has to do with him putting something out there and her saying no just because. This was litterally just filed about two weeks ago. I'm annoyed the attorney didn't add something about winter break and I would have noticed it but was advised not to go to their mediation session becuase the ex HATES me. She told DH that he is a nutless pupet and only does what I say and that all their issues are becuase of me  . So here wer are 2 weeks after this was filed and kicking ourselves for not noticing this.

Swiggle

This was her last response.

I offered the switch for the 3rd and 4th not the 29th and 30th. I had been willing to work with him in the past surrounding the Holiday break under our old agreement. However, you were the ones that insisted we change the agreement and have everything spelled out. We did that. Now, you are still wanting me to change it further because the schedule doesn't benefit you this year. Well, too bad. I don't ever HAVE to give up my time if I don't want to.  You can threaten court mediation all you want. Frankly, I would love to share with someone the constant bull___ I put up with from you two.


I'm so tired of the fighting. before this new agreement there parenting plan was one paragraph that she wrote when they divorced. They split holidays so one parent had them from 9-3 the other parent got them from 3-9 and they went back to whoever's overnight it was. So annoying and we couldn't plan anything around the holidays becasue she was never flexible when we wanted to go out of town or what not because she has said that my family is not her kid's family so they shouldn't go. Now the new agreement, initiated by us spells things out more clearly with holidays rotating ever other and he now has 50/50 time. The old parenting time was

Mom got - Mon, Thurs, every other Fri, Sat, Sun.

Dad got - Tues, Wed, every other Fri, Sat but had to have the kids home by Sunday at 7pm. Mind you dad lived 10 min from where the kids went to school while my lives 30 min from the school. We would drive them home on Sundays so mom could put them to bed and drive them back to school the next morning before turning around and going all the way back past her home for work.

It isn't becasue it benefits us, in two years we will end up with majority of the winter break and aren't like her in that we wouldn't let her have a day or two to even it up, especially if she had something to do with the kids. but she thinks becuase she never wants/needs extra or different time with them that we shouldn't either. It is so frustrating. And we accommdated her some too the last couple of years. They take take take and never want to give give give unless it is a benefit to them. It is never about the kids with her.

Sadly, you've learned by now you can't expect reciprocity.  And she won't learn your boundaries if you're being reasonable and expecting her to learn from that and be reasonable herself.


And what's wrong with telling her when that time comes that she wasn't willing to work with you when you made a request and your boundary is that you can't give her a break if she won't give you a break?  Yes, we don't want to do tit for tat, but the only other choice is she knows you'll fold and let her do pretty much what she wants.  Isn't that enabling her?

However, I doubt she would make the connection, you refused to work with us back in 2014 so we won't work with you in 2016.  Some things you keep trying and then let go, but you still need boundaries.

You obviously have learned the lesson we all have, that even if it is in black and white, BPD think the rules don't apply to them.  I noticed throughout your husband's communications he continues to offer reasonable options that most logical people could work work with.  I will relay the mantra I kept telling my now 21 year old daughter as she was growing up and dealing with her uBPD mother, now my ex-uBPDw. "You cannot have a logical conversation with an illogical person."

As Matt pointed out, you are giving her options.  Options implies that she is in control which is precisely where the BPD wants to be.  The fact that she is able to stick her thumb in your and her ex's eye at the same no doubt makes it even more satisfying.

Based on the wording you posted, it seems clear that you have every right to request one of your weeks during the school year.  If I were in your shoes, I think the only thing that would cause me to let this year go is if she were willing to amend the agreement to address this for any future years.  Remember the basics of negotiation, you never give something without getting something in return.

Another angle to look at. If possible can you find what next years winter break will be. If you can and it works the opposite way it did this year you may want to point that out to ex now. Letting her know the consequences for next year with her refusal to work things out this year may be the thing that reluctanly changes her mind. I've used that strategy several times with my ex. Of course it has to be worded in a non combative style.

Years ago ex sent me an email requesting that our two boys be with her the entire mothers day weekend even though it was my weekend. I looked up fathers day that year and it fell on her weekend. I agreed with switching. This was all in emails. She agreed. When fathers day came I picked the boys up at school on Friday. On Sunday we went out to see a movie. Of course, I had turned my phone off. After the movie we were driving home and I turned my phone back on. I had three very angry messages. When we arrived home ex was in the driveway demanding the children. I had a copy of the email. I wound up driving to the police station. The police called her and she yelled at them. She eventually drove to the police station and I drove home. After that incident ex has never blatantly disregarded an email agreement to a change of custody.

Using their own illogical thought pattern against them works wonders.

You cannot have a logical conversation with an illogical person... .doubly so if that person is entitled and feels enabled.

I recall one time at an exchange years ago my ex was pondering the next exchange that needed changes, almost seeming not to be seeking all her time.  I thought I'd make it easy for her, I mentioned two options, neither putting her at a disadvantage.  She retorted, "Then I'll just keep him!"  It did work out later, but not right then.  That was the day I realized she didn't do well when offered choices, something a normal person would appreciate.  The phrases above in bold explain why.

It's possible she will eventually come around.  You'll feel you got what you needed, the time.  And she'll feel she got what she needed, negative engagement, reinforcement of her self-proclaimed victimhood and the feeling of empowerment and control over your lives.

By the way, in my area you can't go to court for Contempt of Court before some event has happened.  So while you may be able to go to court proactively to make fixes, the aggrieved party may not be able to seek consequences until something actually happened that the other believed was contrary to the order.  I hope that makes sense.

With the way that their parenting days fall, she won't feel this winter break thing until 2018 so she gets majority time between now and then. All of her family is here so her need to every travel around the holidays isn't an issue.

The only thing that she ever recalls needing is this she travels often for work out of town because they both have ROFR she has to ask us first, in whihc we have always said yes. There have been times that she has needed to be out of town for work and when that time falls during her parenting time she asks to have them during one of our days so she doesn't miss out. We have always agreed to this in the past. This happens several times a year and is the one thing that she will need and want us to accommodate her for. Should we bring this up in some way? She also refuses for the most part to communicate via email because she doesn't like the fact that I can read and or be the one to type up a response to her. We want to establish a boundary for that since it is so much easier to keep records rather than text messages.

At this point we are just going to go out of town and come back early unfortunately. DH and I were thinking in response to her last email something along the lines of... .I have put some questions for you in bold

I'm sorry that we could not work together as we have the past two years to split up the winter break in a fair and consistent way. Thank you for the offer to switch your January days for our November days but that does not work with our schedules after all. I would like to have the kids in order to spend time with them over their winter break should you change your mind about being fair with time.

In the past when you have traveled for work during your parenting time we have extended you the courtesy of having the kids on one of our nights so you don't miss out on time. I unfortunately will not be extending this courtesy in the future as you have made it clear that you do not want to operate in a fair and consistent way. I want to bring this up because I know she doesn't think about how this affects her in the future, she only reacts. I want it to be a boundary about her choices she is making now but not to sound threatening.

For ease all future communications for requests or anything about the kids needs to be made via email (unless there is an emergency or if we need to let the other person know we are running late). Should you text me with requests or questions I will not repsond unless an email is also sent that I can respond to. She refuses to only deal with DH which is fine but since he has stopped being a doormat and puts up some boundaries she thinks everything he says and does is me puppeting him. We talk a lot and collborate on how to deal with all issues. She always controlled their marriage so she doesn't get it. She often texts him about questions or requests and DH wants to make sure he has it in email format. We think we will eventually need it.

Well nobody can say for sure what might work for you - everybody is different and maybe this approach will work.  But I'll tell you how I would do it differently... .

First, I would not open up the subject of e-mail for discussion - that just leads to argument.  Sometimes it's good to announce a boundary, but I have found that it works best just to implement it.  (And this is a boundary I put in place too, for the same reasons, a few  years ago, and it has worked well.)  I would just quit responding to her texts or sending her texts;  let her phone calls go to voice-mail and decide case-by-case whether it's best to respond to her voice-messages, like if it's a truly urgent matter.

I would just use e-mail, and always aim to say, "I will do X.", and then do it.  Assume she is getting your e-mails.  (Or there are programs that let you know whether someone opened your e-mail or not.)  "I will pick the kids up at noon on Saturday and return them at noon on Sunday." - then do it.

Also, I would not threaten to act badly (quit accomodating her work travel) in order to get her to act right.  It might work, but I haven't seen it work.

Which leaves you in a weak position for the winter break.  But since the court order is (I think) on your side, I would put forward a schedule which is consistent with the court order:  "I will pick the kids up at noon on December 20th and return them at noon on December 25th.  That way the kids will be able to spend time with both families over the winter break."  Inform the kids too - "We'll pick you up at noon Saturday." - call them to remind them - just be very matter-of-fact about the matter.  It's a win for everyone!

Then... .if she blocks it - if you show up to pick up the kids, and she won't let them go with you - let her know, "I guess we'll have to go back to court to make sure this doesn't happen again." - and do it - file a motion ASAP to get the court order so clear that it can't possibly be misunderstood.  You'll be able to show that you acted sensibly - accomodating her work travel - but she didn't.

By the way... .you should be keeping a detailed log of time the kids are with you, and when they are with their mom.  I use Excel, because it's easy to do calculations, like how many nights they spend at each home each month.  You can also make a list of all the times you accomodated her travel, with e-mails or texts to support that;  like maybe you could show, "Ms. Mom asked for schedule changes, to accomodate her work travel, 10 times this year, and we agreed all ten.  We asked for two changes to the schedule this year, and she blocked both of them."  Probably not enough to lead to a change in custody, but if all you are asking for is more clarity in the court order, to make sure schedules work out for everybody, it should be more than enough.

While you're at it - if you have to go back to court - you can think of other things, like e-mail, that you want changed.  Throw in everything you can think of;  even if you don't get it all, you'll get more than if you didn't ask.

I used email only communication years ago. At first ex tried ways around it. I no longer answered my cell phone and let it go to voicemail. If ex left a voicemail I needed to reply to I would write what she said in an email with my reply. That happened a few times and she adapted. Eventually I had email communication only put in our court order except in an emergency.

In an emergency a voicemail was required which included all vital info. I only used voicemail twice in four years. Ex used voicemail more but most of the time I didn't need to reply.

We were recently in court. Everything was in chambers and the hearing was postponed. Ex's atty was adamant about changing email only communication. Obviously ex doesn't like that boundary. Judge didn't change that.

I actually got rid of texting a few years back. I let ex know. Recently I put it back on my phone. Ex does not know but if she sends a text I will completely ignore it.

I am not sure about sending an email letting her know the consequences of her actions by telling her you will not be giving makeup time. I am not sure how that will play out in court if you wind up going there. If you send an email (documentation) it may be used to show that both parties are guilty of tit for tat behavior. Just saying no from now on sets a precedent and a boundary. I would have to think about that for a while and try to figure out the best way to deal with that. I agree with your actual idea of saying no. I always communicate with ex with the idea of a judge someday reading the email.

I have come to the conclusion that ex will never agree with anything I propose and have found ways around that obstacle. It's not always easy.

My ex has misinterpreted our court order a few times. I never went to court about a specific incident but when I was in court I addressed those incidents along with others. I found it more cost effective this way. I expect ex to fight until our oldest is over 18 and then things will slowly die down.

David's experience is similar to mine, and he makes a good point about whether to announce a boundary - which might be portrayed in court as a threat, or "my way or the highway" - vs. implementing it, so the other party sees what you are doing and must decide how to deal with that.

My ex used to call me and start in ranting, accusing, etc.  When we were married, and I traveled on business, I spent many evenings in hotels, just listening to her rant.  Finally I learned to hang up the phone - not to threaten, or argue, but just to hang up the phone whenever she crossed the line into what I considered inappropriate.  Soon she quit unloading on me like that, and then later I quit answering her calls altogether, and she figured out that I was no longer available to her as a target for her abuse.  Now it's 99% e-mail - no texts and very few phone calls, and I haven't spoken to her face-to-face in a long time.  And I never announced the change, or asked for it in a court order, I just quit making myself available to her any way except e-mail.

One other subject you have mentioned - and on this there may be some different views from everybody here - is it OK for her to decide that she will deal with her ex but not with you?

My own view is, it's not up to her to decide how you and your husband run your household.  I'm a step-parent, and in my view, my stepkids need the same kind of parenting as biokids.  (My stepkids are now grown and out of the house but they still need parenting!)  If you and your husband decide that your role in parenting is the same as his, and if that means that you need to do some of the commucation with his ex, that's your call, and she has no right to dictate that.  Again, it's a matter of boundaries:  If you provide her some information as to what you and your husband will do, she can either accept it or not, but it's not up to her to dictate who the information comes from.

(This may not be legally correct, I realize.  Where the court is involved, your husband has a different role from yours.  I'm talking about how things work in your home.)

Frustrated and not sure what to do now. We heard back from our attorney and our interpretation of the agreement was wrong, we only get two weeks total of extended time/vacation in a given year. I'm pissed that the attorney didn't think about this winter/spring break issue when we modified the agreement a few months ago.

So here we are having to decide do we let this go or do we head back again to modify? Of course her nonsense about the bull___ we put her through and how we've dragged her back to court twice (once for something else) in two years is not true but it gets in your head like making us question "are we wrong in what we are doing" I hate that her f'up-idness can make me doubt what I know is right.

I'm tired of paying attorneys, tired of mediation/court and dealing with her and it will never end.

Swiggle

I keep track of any issues ex and I disagree on and have solutions for them. Eventually ex does something that I consider needs to be addressed in court. This has me spending less money for legal issues. I then proceed to court with overwhelming evidence to prove my case. I include all changes to our current order so I address all those other issues too. I found this to be the most cost effective way to use the court system.

I usually get 80% of what I asked for in my petition when I use this method. Judges don't like to make one person the winner so I expect niot everything will go in "my favor" because of that. I make sure the things that are important are addressed and let ex "win" some of the other things that are not as important to our two boys.

Example: We were in court two weeks ago. I am seeking more time during the school year because ex doesn't help the boys with their school work. I have copies of every homework for the last two years of our S11. He does over 90% of his school work when with me. About half of what he does at his mom's is incorrect and I have him correct those things when he is with me. I filed last August and ex has been legally dragging things out. Two weeks ago her atty had a conference in chambers with the judge and my atty. The judge decided to temporarily give me additional time during the school year until the hearing which was again postponed. In exchange ex wanted the entire Thanksgiving holiday, which is 50/50 in our order, this year with no makeup time. I agreed since it was only for this year and I would have more time with the boys to help them with their homework. Ex also wanted no ROFR until the hearing. I agreed and am keeping track of all the times she is working during her custodial time until the hearing. My atty will have her on the stand and she will have to have a reason for refusing to let the boys be with me when she is not at her residence. There is no good reason so she will only dig her hole deeper and will be exposed for what she is.

We emailed the attorney again just letting him now that we've worked together for 2 years and now she won't and asked him what our best options are. There are other things brewing like mom's live in boyfriend has been drinking a lot and kids are bringing it up in therapy. Mom and BF act innappropriate together, like he will grab her and feel her up in front of the kids. DSD tried talking to mom about it but mom started crying hysterically and make DSD feel like it was all her fault saying things like... .You just don't love me, you don't like BF, you would rather be with dad than me an a host of other things. She aslo hasn't paid the kids therapist in over a year for her poriton of the visits. Maybe we will bite the bullet this year and just go back all at once.

Thanks for all the feedback and suggestions, it really is helpful to see other views and that I'm not alone.

Swiggle

Document, document, document. All of it. See if kids T will write something or testify. Probably not but it is worth asking.

One thing I learned that isn't explained clearly. Judges must base their decision on evidence. Evidence is that stuff that is introduced as evidence and tagged, etc. Sitting on the stand a saying things is not as strong as presenting documented and submitted evidence. If that piece of evidence is used in questioning that is fine and actually much stronger. Having a piece of paper and showing it to a witness and talking about it is not the same as putting that piece of paper in as evidence. Evidence is on the record and kept in a file for that hearing. If a judge disregards evidence the ruling can be overturned much easier. Attorneys don't like that because they are in front of that judge again and again.

My atty understands that I want evidence presented as evidence. It goes to both parties atty's and the judge. They put a stamp, sticker, marking of some sort on it and it is officially a piece of evidence. They verbally acknowledge it as such too. I am not an attorney but have noticed the difference in my own personal experiences.

I am currently going through a custody hearing. We were supposed to have the hearing two weeks ago. Ex's atty wanted a conference in chambers with the judge and my atty. My atty showed that he had over 30 pieces of evidence. The judge gave a temp ruling, in our boys and my favor, and rescheduled the hearing since that much evidence was going to make the hearing much longer. Ex's atty did not see any of the evidence but does know there is a lot.

My main reason for going to court is the homework issue I mentioned earlier. I filed last August and ex delayed every step of the way. The one thing she should have done was to change her behavior and actually start helping our boys. She hasn't changed at all. This school year is no different. Our S11 has 26 pages of homework so far. He did four at his moms and three of them had things that were incorrect. They were simple mistakes that were because S11 wants to get things done as fast as possible. When he is with me I look at the paper and simply tell him there are so many incorrect on the page.He has to find them and correct them. It doesn't take long. I have copies before and after he corrects them. I sign and date everyone. Ex signs the ones he does at her place too so I have proof where he does them at. THis has been going on for the last two years and this year. My atty has copies and just shakes his head when I give him new ones. He can't believe ex hasn't changed.

We struggle with the homework thing to. Sometimes stuff makes it home to us, most of the time not. We struggle (although this year hasn't been as bad) with homework in that DSS take fooreve to complete, whines that he doensn't understand and engages his dad with all the nonsense. We found out from DSS and DSD that at mom's house she mostly does it for him or gives him the answers when he starts to struggle. She does everything for him though he is 7 and still has a hard time lacing his shoes (which we taught him by the way, as mom continued to by velcro) buttoning his pants and lots of other things. That is a great idea on the homework, I may have to start putting initials on ours so we know. Good news both kids are doing very well in school.

as for the T she is an expert witness and testifies all the time in court so that is a very good thing. She has tried to engage mom on several occassions to get her involved in the kids therapy but she wants nothing to do with it. In her mind her kids are fine. All these other things with the kids are just starting to come out since they just moved in with the mom's BF a month or so ago, we are monitoring very closely.

Everything David said about evidence is critically important to building a case for getting more time. And if you have to go back to fix the holiday schedule, then you might as well throw it all in there and see what sticks.

I hear your frustration about having to go back to court. It takes forever to get through the continuances just to get heard and then it still isn't fun for anyone when you do. Unfortunately, many BPDs will only listen to a court order. And even then, only sort of.

But I can stand with others and say that once the BPD has been sufficiently beaten down in court things do get easier. A parenting plan that spells out every date, time, place for pick ups and drop offs and every major holiday, and who is responsible for what goes a really kong way to supporting our sanity.

Our youngest used to whine all the time about homework. It took all of third grade and part of fourth before he realized I wasn't backing down. It was a test of wills and also the fact that mom gave him the answers as soon as he began to whine. I figured that out from his older brother and the things that he was saying. He still has his moments but not like before. In fact, now he usually just needs a break and then he does things fine.

The last two years I talked to S11's teachers about the home situation in the beginning of the year. Both teachers listened. They also had separate meetings with their mom. Weeks after that both teachers contacted me and we worked out ways around the roadblocks. One thing that worked well in my situation was that I see the boys every Monday. Both teachers gave their weekly homework assignments on Monday so I could help S11 do it on my Monday and finish on my Thursday. S 11 did nothing on Tuesday and Wednesday at his moms. That was third grade. In fourth grade I began to point out to S11, S10 at that time, that if he did some of his work at his mom's on Tues and/or Wed he wouldn't have as mush to do on Thurs. It made sense to him and  he did that from time to time. Working around ex makes things more challenging but not impossible.                                                 I gave up the idea of coparenting years ago.

Just last night, S11 was doing his homework and he told me that mom was very angry at me because I make him do corrections on the homework he is doing at her place. He said she was going to send me an email about it. I explained to him that I wasn't going to change the way things are done at my house. He said he knew that and just wanted to let me know mom was mad at me. Hopefully she will send an email. That is just more evidence. If not it is just hearsay in court and is useless.

I looked at a school calendar and figured every holiday, inservice day, etc during school. I also did the summer. I spelled it all out in my custody proposal. It basically split things 50/50. At that hearing, the judge said he was giving both of us two weeks to hand in our own proposal. I handed my proposal in. Ex's proposal was a rant about how controlling and abusive I was. There was no mention of the children or a custody schedule. The judge copied my proposal word for word in the order. I don't try to make sense of the things she does anymore. The day she starts making sense is the day I check into a mental health facility.

Inappropriate behavior between adults, in front of kids, could be a big issue.

I know a young man who was raised by woman who was later diagnosed with BPD.  She had a number of boyfriends over the years, and some of them teased her son or treated her badly.  Sometimes there was sexual stuff in front of him, or he heard them through the thin walls of the apartment.

He developed some unhealthy issues with regard to women and sex.  As a young adult, he made some very bad choices, mostly looking for love from women, to replace the love he never could count on from his mother.  His boundaries related to women weren't healthy.

Lots of big problems as a young adult - drinking drugs, and jail - and lots of them traced back to these sexual issues, and how he felt as a child when there weren't healthy boundaries.

So... .it's very worth working with a counselor for the kids and/or your lawyer, to figure that issue out - how best to help the kids through this.

One more thought along those lines... .

The way you describe the kids' mom, it sounds very much to me like she prefers a life focused on boyfriends, not the kids.  Comments like "You would rather be with your dad!" might mean "I would rather you were with your dad!".  Her need to fight might not let her admit it, but if you watch her other behaviors, maybe she would be relieved if the kids weren't with her so much.

(And this is exactly what I found with my own ex - she fought over custody, but outside the legal process, all her behavior has pushed the kids away from her and toward me - a million excuses why she can't take them when she should according to the court order.  The most obvious is, she won't get internet access, so the kids can't do their homework or use the internet - and no cable TV either - so they want and need to be with me more.  Makes no sense, until you realize she is more comfortable when they're not with her too much... .)

David, I wish we knew then what we know now. UBPDm only wants to do things with the kids if she thinks we aer going to first. When it comes to meeting their basic needs she feeds them (although not well), clothes them and gives them shelter. Hadn't taken them to the dentist in two years so we made appointments this year and man did that blow up in our face, she blocked the dentist from using her dental benefits... .she carries the insurance. She will stop at nothing.

I have calendars with everything written down... .Whe we ask for time and she says no and the reason, When she asks for time and we work with her, when she does something stupid and all the stuff with the kids.

I realized for me the hardest part is knowing that no matter how specific the agreement is at some point there needs to be flexiblity and it just won't happen on her end. Letting go of trying to work together with her to coparent for the kids sake is tough.

Swiggle

If you are considering asking the court to shift custody - which is probably the right solution if you can achieve it - one strategy you might consider is to find the criteria used by your state.

Many states use the 9 criteria for custody first used by Minnesota, or maybe they make some small changes or add a few more.  Stuff like, "Safe and clean environment", "Parent's physical and emotional health", and "Parent encourages and support child's relationship with the other parent".

If you can find the criteria used by your state, you can then gather evidence to show you are good on each item, so when the judge considers a request for change of custody, she can see solid evidence lining up with each of the criteria.

This thought process might lead you to gather some evidence you hadn't thought of, but which would help your case quite a bit.

DH and I both think that the kids are an annoyance to her. When they are with her they stay in their rooms and mom and BF are always off doing whatever... .in the garage where BF keeps the beer, in their room or watching TV, but shows that the kids shouldn't watch so they are made to go to their rooms. Mom would never let us have them, although I think she wouldn't fight very hard I don't think.

Her and my DH were married for over 10 years, just after DSS was born something changed in her he said. Their marriage went downhill after that. She always was a drinker, he had to carry her home many times (should've been his first clue) but after the kids he stopped because they needed to be adults and they had responsiblities. A few years after DSS he found out she was having an affair and left the next day. They had already tried marriage counseling but she never really took it seriously and said that things were all his fault. Her current BF is this guy she cheated with. The good thing is she doesn't jump from man to man.

I've talked to their T and to my biokids T about the implications if we fight for custody. She said that if we fight and say mom walks away easily that is opening a new can of issues later in life for the kids. Now if things start to be unsafe then we will but at this point I can see where it is a difference in viewpoint about what happens in Mom's house vs. Dad's house. For instance, do I think it is appropriate for parents to show that kind of affection (like BF touching mom's breasts) to each other when kids are around, no. But what is normal, who defines that? UBPDm doesn't think it is normal that we offer one thing to the kids to eat, if they don't like it that's ok the next meal is in x hours. At her house she is a short order cook and thinks we are crazy that DSS has at times gone days without eating what we cook. She accused us of starving him, but he would say to us I'm not eating since I will see my mom tomorrow she will give me whatever I want. But in her mind we aren't normal.

I really don't know waht the right answers are anymore, except that we will continue to love them and help them deal with their mom. They are already making serious connections about the type of healthy behavior in our  home vs. her mom's BF's home. As long as they have a different lens to look at the world through then I'm happy. She will always be their dysfunctional mom it's teaching them how to deal while protecting themselves that is important at this point.  

Great idea, where would I find this info, what would I look up?

Swiggle

My ex continues to give me more evidence even when she knows that is the thing in my petition and why I am seeking more time. The only way it makes sense to me is exactly what Matt said. She wants the fight (engagement) and really doesn't know what to do with the kids when they are with her. If she doesn't win in court then she can portray herself as a victim to everyone around her. It's twisted logic but if someone really has no true sense of self and all the other issues relating to BPD it is a way to relieve the anxieties inside.

The reason she gets angry with me when I am helping S11 with his homework is because her view is all about her. She can't see past her own issues. If I am helping him and she is not then she is all bad. That anxiety needs to be relieved by projecting the anger towards me. That is dysfunctional thinking and the kids need to see it for what it is. If not then they will model that behavior and continue into the next generation.

So we haven't heard back from the attorney yet. DH and I We were looking ahead on the calendar last night and we thought of another that needs to be clarified with her. I cringe anytime we have to bring something up since it almost always causes a huge fight with her.

The tone of her last email was that she was working together with us (not really) but we were the ones who wanted everything spelled out in the new agreement and now that it is that is how she is operating. The thing is she only reacts, she never thinks ahead in terms of how her choices could affect her later. For instance in the past if a holiday falls on our night but it is her holiday she would get the kids overnight and bring them back the next morning instead of how the agreement is writen now that they would have to be home by 9pm. (of course some holidays says overnight but a few of them do not). Keeping them overnight on a holiday was a verbal/email agreement they had and have practiced for over a year now.

With her last email having the tone of "I'm not working with you any longer" and this verbal agreement they had timing on holidays was not written in the new agreement. We aren't sure how this will play out going forward. We want to work with her but at the same time you all know how it is to try and work logically with someone like this. She will always want us to bend in her favor but will not be willing to reciprocate.

Our options are

1. Send an email now to discuss how "together" this will get handled going forward so that we are all clear on the details. By sending it now we are hoping there is less reaction because it won't be a decision that has to be made in the heat of the moment.

2. Not say anything and let this year's Thanksgiving play out. She will expect to keep the kids overnight since we always have and she likes shopping with DSD. When we tell her that no the agreement states the kids have to be home by 9 and she wanted to follow it to the letter, she will blow up and it will get ugly. She loves black friday shopping with her DD and with the way agreement is, she will always have to have the kids home by 9pm because it is our parenting night.

3. Use this to gently point out now that in order for everyone to get what they need and to be fair, bringing back into play the winter break. That we shouldn't be expected to follow the agreement for things such as the winter break issue, but not for things that are a benefit to her.

Thoughts?

Any of the scenarios will suite the kids so we can't look at it in a "what is best for the kids" way.

In situations like this I send an email pointing out what has been done in the past. To me, and the courts, setting a precedent does change the custody order. You just need enough evidence. One change is not a big deal but multiple times following the precedent does lend credence to the "agreed" upon change.

I usually say something like, "In the past we used to have the children sleep over during such and such. You have indicated in the email dated xyz that you want to strictly follow the court order from now on. Following your request the children will be returned by 9pm on Thanksgiving."

Not sure if that works in your situation but it does in mine. Ex will be furious and lash out in her reply. If she leaves a shred of something that allows me to "work together" I use that part of her rant to rechange our agreement and include what I also was trying to accomplish. If she leaves nothing in her rant than I ignore. If my ex has enough advance notice she will change her idea into the one I suggeted. She will then initiate an email weeks later with the rechange being her idea. I simply agree and things get accomplished. This only works when I have enough time. Sometimes it doesn't work and I haven't figured out the reason. I know it's twisted but I take a long range view of things.

Also, my emails are always written, saved, read over several times, massaged, and then sent. It takes a few days. I also keep in my head that a judge will probably be reading this sometime in the future.

That said, it is difficult if not downright impossible to reason with an entitled and controlling pwBPD (or some other acting-out PD).  So if a straightforward request doesn't work, don't keep trying endlessly.  Evidently too she's 'punishing' you because you took her to court and got an order with teeth.  Don't reward her or empower her with what she would perceive as begging and groveling for your crumbs.  It will just become negative engagement without positive results.

It's possible too that she expected her Denial to result in you 'sweetening the deal' more and more.  If that's the case, then in her mind she's entitled to stonewall you in order to get more concessions.  And keep using that strategy of firm boundaries every time you make requests.  So don't reward her for obstructing.  Set your boundaries and don't weaken them lest you encourage repeated boundary pushing.

A couple of comments... .

First, if you called your attorney last week, or over the weekend, and he hasn't even had the courtesy to return your call yet, I think you should be looking for an attorney that wants to do the work.  People who are abusive - as all of us here who have been in relationships with someone with BPD know from experience - are abusive.  One thing, then another, usually worse.  So an attorney who is abusive in this relatively small, passive-aggressive way, will also abuse you in other ways.

You can look for someone who wants the work, and/or you could send your attorney a brief e-mail:  "I called you on Friday and you have not returned my call yet.  This is unacceptable.  If you would like to continue to work with me, call me today, prepared to discuss the issue I told you about."  Then let him decide if he wants to step up, and treat you like his client - which means his boss - or not.

About the holidays... .

My instinct would be, lay out a reasonable plan for the upcoming holidays, maybe including the next several months if you can look out that far - however many holidays you think is reasonable to plan for.

Take in mind everything you know about Mom's preferences, and Dad's, and the kids', plus travel time etc.  Make it the best plan you can, as if you were the judge.

Put it in an e-mail, but keep it very specific and practical.  Nothing vague or philosophical - just a simple schedule, and maybe something like, "This is the best plan we could figure out so the kids can spend time with both families" or whatever - a simple declaration of what you are trying to do, and then the schedule.  Then, "We'll proceed accordingly but please let us know if there is another schedule that would work better." or something like that, showing you are open to her input, but not leaving it up in the air.

Then see how she reacts.

My ex was super-disagreeable, and very passive-aggressive, til I adopted this style, and it works very well most of the time.  If she doesn't react well - maybe she'll reject it, or send an aggressive response of some sort - then you'll have tried your best, and you can move on to the legal process.

Just heard back from our attorney. He said, Any time during the winter/spring break that is not specifically listed reverts to the week to week parenting order.  Therefore the parties time should be fairly equitable.  You need a change of circumstances to modify the parenting order again.

I read that as we are stuck with her getting more time during winter break at least the next several years and that we can't really modify since there hasn't been a change in circumstances. UGH

I guess our next step will be the approach about the other details that weren't clarified by the agreement and see what she says. We are aware that sometimes it is going to work and sometimes it isn't but to not have to have these discussions/blow ups would be rather nice. I just want to know what to expect.

Forever dad, I like the approach you mentioned below. For her sometimes she gets triggered, reacts and doesn't think. When some time has gone by and we point out that this will in fact impact her she will sometimes change her tune. She makes it sound like we ask her to give up all this time when we are only asking for it to be FAIR

I was just reading through the new agreement that was filed, in addition to not having any language about winter break there isn't any language about the kids birthdays, parent's birthdays, mothers day or fathers day.

This could get really out of control ugly.

Swiggle

What you said the attorney said about "change of circumstances" - I think that's common language - the courts don't want to re-fight battles just because somebody's a sore loser... .

But I wonder if "change of circumstances" could include new information, like, "This CO was intended to settle issues related to the schedule, but it has not worked - here's evidence that it's not working - so we ask that it be made more specific, to minimize conflict between the parents."

I haven't been through this exactly, but kinda... .

When we separated, I didn't want a divorce - my wife said she didn't either - but she filed for divorce because she thought she would get more money short-term if she did that.  (Her lawyer misled her.)  I didn't hire a lawyer, and responded to her petition by agreeing to what she wanted - "OK, if we get a divorce, it can be like this.  But let's find a counselor and try to save the marriage."  It wasn't smart, but I wasn't in my right mind... .

Later, when I got a good lawyer, she said, "This is a problem - you agreed in writing that she would get primary custody.  That issue is settled."  I said that wasn't acceptable, and she found a solution:  We said that we had new information - our marriage counselor had told me about BPD and that my wife had most of the indicators for it - which I didn't know when I agreed to give her primary custody.

It worked;  in fact, my wife's attorney accepted it without the judge even ruling.  First she called me a liar, but when both attorneys talked to the marriage counselor and found out I was telling the truth, they agreed to set aside what I had agreed to, and work out custody fresh.  Which led to a much better outcome.

My point is, "change of circumstances" might mean a lot of things, including just the fact that the court order has not achieved what it was intended to.

You may have to assemble some e-mails and any other evidence you have, to show that it's not working.  And you might want to try some other, non-legal approaches first, to document that you are doing everything you can, and it's still not working, so it has to be changed.

My county has a list of standard holidays and events on a published holiday schedule.  IT includes several religions so although unstated we are still to ignore the ones that don't apply.  Mother's Day, Father's Day and the children's birthdays are on our list but not the parents' birthdays.

Check whether your county has a standard holiday list, likely it does.  My county calls it a Guideline Parenting Schedule, includes limits to vacation details, notices, exchange time window, etc.   If so, try to get ex to agree to use it without resorting to a return to court.  Be sure you get agreement on which holidays to observe and which are to be ignored, for example, if you're not Chinese then you would agree to ignore Chinese New Years Day, if you're not Mexican then you would ignore Mexico's Independence Day, etc.

Yeah, this approach would enhance your credibility as the party trying to be reasonable and meet all parties' needs - using an objective source like this as the basis for what you put forward.

If you get the standard holiday schedule in your locale and email it to BPD you may get a reply that shows how difficult she is. That could be considered a change in circumstances since she has shown her unwillingness to "coparent". Then if you go to court you can address the other issues too. Not sure if that is a proper legal tactic.

Yeah, this makes sense to me too - at least worth discussing with your attorney.

"When we settled and the CO was written, it was assumed that both parents would and could work together in the kids' best interest.  The attached e-mails show that this is not true.  Now we need a revised CO taking that into account."

At the end of the section on holidays there is verbage that says "unless changed by agreement, days of special meaning and vacations times shall be consistent with local rule, attached hereto and incorporated herein.

So I emailed attorney in meantime to help us understand what this means and to send us the local rule. In the meantime I looked it up for our county and found one that is effective March of this year that states... .

a. Winter Break

The parents will equally divide the children's winter break. This paragraph should be read in conjunction with the holiday schedule below. The parents will discuss and agree upon the allocation of the break at least thirty (30) days prior to the commencement of the break. If the parents cannot agree on the schedule for the break, the break will be divided equally.

If there is no agreement, the parent who is scheduled to celebrate Christmas Eve shall have the children from the day school is adjourned for the winter break through the scheduled Christmas Eve holiday, and the parent who is scheduled to have Christmas day will have the children for an equal number of days. The remaining days of the break shall also be equally divided with the parent scheduled to have the children for the New Year’s holiday including that time in their half of the remaining days.

So this may be our saving grace and we aren't at the mercy of her mood to determine the time we get and we don't have to "switch" days with her.

Yes, that seems pretty clear to me. If Christmas isn't mentioned by name elsewhere, then I would think this rule applies.

Ive found directly quoting from the order and from other source material (such as local rules) to be very effective. With my DH's BPDex it's the only time she has completely backed down. I think think there is something comforting for her about the certainty when rules are iron clad and black and white, like the way she thinks anyway.

I would send an email with the law in it and let BPD know you are going to follow the law. If you have an idea for the holiday you can send that too in the email. That will be longer than the recommended 3 to 5 sentence rule but this seems like a good time to be longer in the email. I would write it out and save it. Look at it the next day or let others here see what you want to send. Remember that a judge may be looking at this some time in the future. Know your audience.

If you want to modify the law with a separate agreement, in an email, then you can approach it that way too.

My xBPDw always follows the court order even when she doesn't like the results. It's the only authority she hasn't tried to bully. I've even seen her yelling at police when she was clearly in the wrong.

we clarified withou our attorney and he interprets that agreement referring to the local rule as we do. He is checking with uBPDex's attorney but is confident this is in our favor. Here is the email we came up with to send to her (after we here back from counsel). We really really want the 29th and 30th as I have my kids and we would like to travel out of town to visit my family. How do you think this sounds?

Dear uBPDex

Because items such as spring break, winter break, mother’s day, father’s day, kids’ birthdays and parents birthdays are not specifically listed in the new agreement they fall back to local rule 18. You can find a copy of the local rule here ….Based on the local rule winter break gets divided equally. We have confirmed this with both attorneys.

Local rule states that the winter break begins the day that school is out 12/19 and the parent who has them for Christmas Eve would get them after school on the 19th until noon on Christmas day, in this case me. In order to have the kids on the 29th and 30th I would be agreeable to having the break start on the 22nd so that your normal weekend before Christmas would not be affected. I understand if this doesn’t work for you and in that case we can go with the local rule which looks like this:

Me kids: After school on the 19th – Christmas Morning at noon (6 days) (since Christmas Eve is my holiday this year)

you kids: Noon Christmas Day – 9am on New Year’s Eve (6 days) (since Christmas Day is your hoilday this year)

Me Kids: New Year’s Eve – noon on New Year’s Day (NYE is my holiday this year)

You Kids: New Year’s Day – 9am on the 3rd (NYE is your hoilday this year)

Me Kids: 3rd & 4th

If you have another suggestion that I might not have thought of please let me know. I hope that we can find a solution together so that we can both enjoy the kids time off over the hoidays.

I think it's good that you included both attorneys. Lets her know that a boundary is already in place and everyone knows what it is. 

If you are okay with either agreement than I think it is good. Giving my BPD choices tends to backfire sometimes. By backfire I mean that it takes days and many back and forth emails to clarify. That is something you may notice or it may not be an issue for you.

I would not include the last sentence if I wrote it. That is a personal thing for me. I have found that when I write something like that I usually get some kind of passive/aggressive reply. It took me a while to figure that out because I wasn't trying to give a dig but I believe ex interpreted it that way. When I stopped adding any semblance of coparenting in my emails things got less hostile in ex's replies. That may not be the case for you so I wouldn't worry about it unless you do notice a similar reply.

I normally spell out each specific date and time. It takes out any chance of ambiguity.

Example: Kids are with me Dec 19 at 4pm, Dec 20, Dec 21, Dec 22, Dec 23, Dec 24, Dec 25 until noon

               Kids are with you Dec 25 at noon, Dec 26, Dec 27, Dec 28, Dec 29, Dec 30, Dec 31 until 9 am

You get the idea. My ex thrives on ambiguity and likes to create chaos when things are not spelled out. I believe it gives her a sense of "control".

Our summer schedule is week on / week off and I spell each day out the same way. When I didn't do that she would try to pick our boys up in the middle of my week. I actually let her make the schedule and then I reply by spelling it out in detail. This gives her that sense of "control" that she needs.

Yeah, you want to keep it as short as possible, and make the schedule absolutely clear - dates and times - so it can't possibly be misunderstood.

Or endlessly reinterpreted.

Yes.

The way I've learned to phrase it is, "I will pick up the kids at your place at noon on Saturday October 11, and bring them back to your place at noon on Saturday October 18."  Specific day, date, time and location.

Update:

We still haven't gotten clarification from our attorney, he said that her attorney is stalling and they have been playing phone tag  

Yesterday SD had another ortho consult and DH took her and uBPDex was there. As they were leaving she said "have you thought about the details for Sunday" he looked at her and asked what she was talking about. She said "it is my birthday Sunday and according to the local rule I get the kids even though it isn't stated in the agreement.  Nothing else was said about it. Last night we sent and email along the lines of... .

today you mentioned your birthday on Sunday and following the local rule for items not specified in teh agreement. Since we are going to follow the the rule for such items, how will we be handling winter break? Would you like to go exactly by the rule or wwould you like to work something else out that might better work with both our schedules.

I think she'll come back and say she only wants to go by the local rule for her birthday but we will see.


Edited to add that she responded... .

she said "I'm not sure what you are talking about. I never said anything about "local rule"... .Which,by the way, only applies in absence of a shared parenting agreement. We have one. So we go by the one we have. I simply asked if we were going to be handling birthdays the way we had in the past since it is not addressed in our agreement. I have already told you that I have made my Holiday plans around our current schedule in the agreement that YOU insisted we re-do.  I suggest you do the same and please stop constantly trying to change the plan. If you do not want to have the kids on our birthdays, then so be it.


So she is giving the impression that she is not going to follow for winter break the local rule. So we have two options, show good faith and let her have the kids this Sunday and just do, what we are going to to over winter break and not even involve the attorneys or we don't let her have her birthday (becasue honestly I don't think she deserves to) and know that the winter break thing will be worked out by December.

I also looked ahead and DH would end up not having the kids on his birthday and Mother's Day and Father's Day both fall on her weekends next year. I HATE THIS F***ING WOMAN. Thakn you for letting me vent and I'm sure your calm responses will help me off the ledge of anger.

I want to call this "selective guilting".  She wants something, claiming it is reasonable but then is unreasonable on something else and just never admits any connection between the two.  It's not accidental, it's purposeful, likely she got away with it in the past and so has no incentive to change.  Likely you'll have to very clearly make a connection and/or enforce it.

I too looked ahead to next year.  In past years MD & FD were always 5 weeks apart.  For some reason every year MD was on my weekend and FD was on her weekend, a real hassle with the extra exchanges and her resistance and guilting.  So I got to thinking we just had the wrong weekends assigned.  I was almost ready to switch weekends but then noticed 2015 has MD & FD 6 weeks apart and both would have ended up on her weekend.  So I didn't suggest swapping weekends.

My understanding is that Mother's Day & Father's Day are expected schedule exceptions as well as the children's birthdays.  But not so much for the parent's birthdays, they're not mentioned in my county's list of holidays and events.  So it may be optional in many areas, the key is to be consistent whichever direction you take.

To:  Mom

From:  Dad

Re:  Our birthdays

You asked to have the kids on your birthday.  I will drop them off at noon Sunday and pick them up at 6:00 p.m.

Then we can do likewise on my birthday, June 1.

This approach works well for me:  Say what you are going to do, and then do it.

Make sure it is a reasonable and practical plan for everybody.  (If noon to 6:00 isn't best, put whatever times make sense for everybody's schedule, the best you can.)

If Mom doesn't agree for some reason, she can respond accordingly.  No response means she accepts your plan.  And you are putting in writing that you expect this approach to apply on Dad's birthday too;  if she blocks that you will have evidence she is not playing fair.

Yup, she's decided to be infuriating and use the new order to "punish" you for taking her to court. If you believe you can get this in front of a judge before the holidays, and get an answer, I would strongly recommend doing so. I would also strongly recommend a simple addition to the order that states that local rule applies for any occurrences not specifically covered by the plan. That's what DH had in his original parenting plan and it clarified several things that could have been a problem through the couple of years it was in place. Be prepared to cite past "confusion" as a reason to need this. Technically, she isn't obstructing because she is following her understanding of the order. But this confusion is leading to conflict and that needs to be fixed.

She feels that the order took away her power and control and she will tale back a tighter grip however she can. So the order needs to be as explicit as humanly possible because you will need to get used to following it to the letter. She has made it clear to you with that email that you will not get any special consideration from her. She will follow the order to the letter as she perceives it. And if anything can be made ambiguous she will just perceived it in a way that best suits her in the moment.

Likely you cannot enforce something in advance unless there is provision for advance mediation or a parenting coordinator.  I know in my location I can't go to court until something has or hasn't happened, not prospectively as the future possibility.  Ask your lawyer if it is handled differently in your state or locality.  As Matt wrote, you state what you feel is reasonable and do it or expect it.  Then... .(1) If she obstructed then you take the matter to court and get a court ruling/clarification.  (12) If she feels you obstructed then she would take the matter to court and get a court ruling/clarification.

This is re-interpretation.  Expect it to continue happening as long as the ex feels entitled.

All great info. Their agreement states who gets what holidays for even/odd years, it is spelled out with timing and everything. It also clearly states "vacation" parameters.

It does not at all address kids birthdays, parents birthdays, mom's day/dad's day, winter break or spring break. It does however state that "unless cahnged by agreement, days of special meaning and vacation times shall be consistent with local rule, attached hereto and incorporated herein. She referenced this as it applies to her bday, then denied that she referenced it.

DH responded to her to email and said.

it states in the new parenting plan, items not specifically addresses in the plan revert back to the local rule. Second, I'm not trying to change the plan, I'm just going by what it says. We handled birthdays in the past as stated in the old parenting plan, and since it wasn't included in the current plan, it should revert back to local rule. Please let me know how you would like to handle this.

We also emaield our attorney putting him on high alert since this is time sensative. I feel like we sort of spelled that out in our first email to her stating great we will follow local rule for things not in the agreement and she immediately said nope I'm not changing my holiday plans. So she is willing to give up her kids for her birthday since she isn't willing to give up anything for winter break. plus she probably looked ahead and knows that DH's bday and mom's/dad's day fall on her weekend.

"Please let me know how you would like to handle this." - I would never write something like this to my ex, because it continues the discussion, and it expects her to solve the problem.  She is a problem-creator, not a problem-solver, so when I expect her to make a decision, I am expecting too much, and putting her under stress.  She doesn't handle stress well - she has BPD.  So putting it on her to solve any problem just doesn't work.

When I put forward a fair, reasonable solution, which meets everybody's needs as I understand them - including my ex's - and when I communicate it as "Here is what I will do." - that works well almost all the time.

By the way, when I deal with other adults, saying "Please let me know how you would like to handle this" is a very good approach, because it lets someone else say what they think would be fair - it's an open, friendly thing to say.  But my ex has BPD, and isn't getting the treatment she needs, so I have to deal with her differently - learn new communication approaches that work when dealing with her.

That is the hard part Matt, what worked last week doesn't work today and might work tomorrow. She doensn't like to be told what/how something will be and that usually escalates things even more. How would the followoing sound

Mom

you mentioned that you would like to have the kids for you birthday as stated in the local rule since it isn't specified in our new agreement. Since I would like to continue having the kids on our repective bdays and mom's day/dad's day, winter break and spring break as we have done for the last several years here is how it will work.

I will have the kids to you on Sunday at 10am and will leave them overnight (as we have always done in the past).

We can do likewise on my birthday which falls on a friday. I will get the kids after school on the 30th and have them back to you on Saturday the 1st at 10am.

Winter break will follow below as stated in the local rule.

I will get teh kids on 12/19 after school and have them the 20th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd, 24th and drop them to you on the 25th at 11am.

You will then have the kids on the 25th, 26th, 27th, 28th, 29th, 30th, and drop them to me at 10am on the 31st.

I will have them the 31st until Noon on the 1st

you will have them on the 1st, 2nd and 3rd until 11am

I will have them the 3rd and 4th dropping them at school on teh 5th

Spring break will follow below as stated in the local rule.

You get odd number years for spring break and I get them even years.

Mothers Day and Fathers Day will be handled in the same manner as our birthdays.

What if she comes back and says fine for bdays and all other things outlined but that she is not in agreement with winter break.

I'd take it a step further and say that this wording is probably triggering. Like you expect to give up and let you have your way. That's how she sees it. She can't let you "win" like that. Matt is right that the better thing to do is write "Per local rule such and such" and then state what you are going to do and leave it there. And then follow the local rule to the letter. She is not going to work with you. She can't. That would be "losing". I know it must seem extremely rude to just lay down the rule and say what you will do, but you may find that she reacts a lot better to certainty than to choices.

Since my DH got custody literally the only nasty email he's even received from his ex was in response to an email he sent with a collaborative and co-parenting tone.

"What if she comes back and says fine for bdays and all other things outlined but that she is not in agreement with winter break.".

She doesn't have to like it. This isn't a negotiation. It's a court order and if she doesn't comply she's in contempt. At this point, check the plan you have written out here with your L. If it follows the order, then have your L send it to her and her L in the mail. That's what DH always did to avoid having visits obstruced.

A couple of thoughts... .

First, a rule of thumb around here is "Three sentences or less.", and that seems to work best.  Keep it as focused as possible - one narrow topic.  Otherwise it gets complicated.  My ex is very intelligent, but when she gets stressed she acts like she's not very smart - she doesn't follow a complicated discussion.  So if I keep it super-simple and focused I have the best chance to get to closure.

And this is what we need - closure - even if it's on a narrow topic like "Mom's birthday and Dad's birthday".  If you try to solve all the related issues - kids' birthdays, winter break, etc. - it's more likely you won't get anything resolved.

Second, I think it's worth considering whether your message is, "The law and our agreement say X, so it's X.";  or whether your message is, "Here is a win/win solution for Mom's and Dad's birthdays."  That is, are you solving the problem to meet everyone's needs, or are you basing everything on the law and the "contract" between the parents.

Both of these are valid ways to go.  I find the "Win/win" approach to work best with my ex.  If things break down completely - and that has happened once since we were divorced - then I'm more than willing to go the hardcore legal route.  I just haven't needed to, except that once - the "Win/win" approach usually works well.

We did the win/win approach it doesn't work but that is what we want. We don't have to follow the agreement to the tee, in fact that isn't usually a win for any of us. She wants her birthday and wants to follow the "rules" to get it but she doesn't want to follwo the same rules about teh other things that are hanging out there. How do you word it in a win/win way when she isn't willing to work with it at all. I mean she out and out said I will not change my plans over the winter break even if the local rule says it is a certain way. She wants to follow it for her bday (whchi we want to do becasue it is the right thing) but doesn't want to follow the rule for the other things.


local rule spells out all things not listed in teh agreement.

we want to work in a win/win way

she only wants to follow the rule as it benefits her

she does not want to, nor thinks she has to give up HER time during winter break.

we already asked her to work with us twice on the winter break issue, she is digging in but wants her birthday and for us to follow the rules for that. but not the other stuff.

Maybe we say to her since we can't find a solution together on these issues we will follwo local rule for items such as bday, mother's day/father's day, kid's birthdays, winter break and spring break?

Asking won't work.  You tried and failed.  Don't try again, your reasonableness and repeated attempts signals her that your boundaries are weak and to be challenged, for her to be stubborn and feel she has control.  Repeat, your reasonableness and attempts to find a middle ground are perceived by her as weakness inviting boundary pushing.  Probably in the past she was uncooperative and got concessions and so she believes she can keep doing it, getting rewarded for bad behavior.

How about a "Take it or leave it" approach?  She can have her birthday but if she does that it signifies her accepting the other terms about H's birthday, H's requested time with Winter Break holiday and each parent getting the respective time on the entire Mother's Day or Father's Day period as listed by the Rules.  State that if she accepts the one, she accepts them all.  If she doesn't then the Order and the Court Rules apply.  Yes, you risk her agreeing and then recanting later after she got what she wanted but then you'd have basis to go to court if she reneged on the later portions of the deal.

Fortunately her birthday, which she wants, comes before the other events.  What she does then should address the rest.  That is good.  I had to learn the hard way that if I wanted a trade or deal to have a better likelihood of success, I had to get my end first, oh, and get it in writing (documentation in case needed in court).

This way you're not reasoning with someone who won't reason and yet you've stated reasonable terms and a reasonable position that the court ought to agree with, either supporting your terms of the agreement or if not supporting you then making changes to the order to prevent repeats of this selective re-interpretion behavior.

Years ago ex sent me an email asking if she could have our two boys the entire Mothers Day weekend. It was my weekend that year. Our court order specifies Mothers Day only and it has the time for pick up and drop off.

I looked at a calendar and noticed that Fathers Day fell on her weekend that year so I proposed we just switch the weekends. We would pick the boys up at school on Friday and drop them off at school on that Monday. Ex agreed to switch.

Everything went fine on her weekend. On my weekend I picked the boys up at school on Friday. Sunday we went to see Kung Fu Panda (it was the first one so you know it was a while back). When we arrived home ex was in the driveway ranting about how she was waiting there for several hours. I had a copy of the email agreement with me. I tried to explain and realized that was fruitless. I went to the local police station to see if they could help get her out of my driveway so I could get the boys in the house and to bed for school the next day. The police called her and she gave them some serious attitude. She finally drove to the police station and I was able to go home without incident.

A few days later she sent an email trying to explain herself. She indicated she didn't know why she would agree to such a thing. I used to reply to every email back then and my reply was simply that I didn't try to figure out why she agreed but that we had an agreement and that was that.

So we took some of this advice and sent the following email to her.

Our agreement states that “unless changed by agreement, days of special meaning and vacation times shall be consistent with local rule, attached hereto and incorporated herein”. This language can be found on page six of our agreement.

I will have the kids to you for your birthday at 10am, they are to be returned home at 8pm. If you would like to have the kids overnight, as we’ve done in the past on days of special meaning/holidays, that is fine with me but I need to know your confirmation on this today. If we continue overnights my expectation is, they are consistent with all (yours and mine) special meaning days/holidays.

Winter break, also not specified in the agreement will be consistent with the local rule schedule:

Me:      19th after school, 20th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd, 24th

You:     25th at 11am, 26th, 27th, 28th, 29th, 30th

Me:      31st at 9am,

You:     1st at noon,

We need to agree to dividing the remaining days 2nd, 3rd and 4th. My suggestion is below, Let me know if you have another idea.

You:     2nd (since you have them on the 1st)

You:     3rd until 3pm

Me:      3rd at 3pm

Me:      4th  dropping at school Monday morning the 5th.

If this schedule does not work for you, I would be happy to consider other options. If I don’t hear from you by the end of the weekend, I will make arrangements based on the above schedule.


She responded with:

Birthdays/ Mother's Day/ Father's Day  is fine. We have always done it that way in the past, I am fine to keep doing it that way. That is why I asked yesterday. We can keep the kids overnight on our "special day" as well. I don't have a problem with that. As far as the Holiday break schedule, I do have a problem with playing these stupid email games with your wife.  If you want to meet me tomorrow briefly after work to discuss  that and daughters dental work we can meet at the Burger King. Or we can meet at T office sometime next week. Let me know.

It is funny, sad, frustrating, crazymaking that when we originally asked about winter break a few weeks ago, stating that it was always divided up so that each of them could spend time with the kids her reply was:

I had been willing to work with DH in the past surrounding the Holiday break. However, you were the ones that insisted we change the agreement and have everything spelled out. We did that. Now, you are still wanting me to change it further because the schedule doesn't benefit you this year. Well, too bad. I don't ever HAVE to give up my time if I don't want to.  You can threaten court mediation all you want. Frankly, I would love to share with someone the constant bull I put up with from you two.

Translation:  Part 1, clear yes.  Part 2, obfuscated no.  The purpose of proposed meeting is not to agree with H.

If you have a history of splitting the winter break in other emails from the past then you can simply send the same email above and add the dates of the emails where you agreed to splitting the winter break. I have done that several times and it always worked. My ex will deny anything unless I have solid evidence to the contrary. Then she simply says something like, "Oh I forgot" and then she agrees or she gives a dig at me and still agrees.

DH has an email from 2012 where she asked him in a phone call what his plans for winter break are. He responds via email, stating what what days he would like, she responded with something like... .I think it is ___ty you are taking the kids for all of their break but whatever it is what I have come to expect of you. That year she had them 1 day more than we did.

Last year 2013 they coordinated via text, he got a new phone and the texts didn't make it over. But I write everything on my calendar they were not yet on the new agreement parenting schedule so there were some dates changed around. The break was split, with her having two additional days. He let her have the extra time in return for the specific days he wanted/needed.

He referenced both of these when he brought up winter break with her a few weeks ago, stating that they have always worked together and split the break. She was willing but when he took her back to court she said she wasn't giving up anything she didn't have to and it didn't matter that they always did it this way.