BPDFamily.com

Riding on anxiety5’s post title of “Ever realize you stopped loving them long ago?”, I feel like asking a similar question: “Ever realize YOUR EX started resenting you long ago?”

I’ve been sulking around for a while now, and I thought I should spend some time collating my thoughts and write a more positive post to share.

So many of us here were abandoned by our ex, but yet so many of us here are still struggling to get over our ex. We are still hoping for them to be enlightened one day, we are still hoping that they will come back. Yes, like what jhkbuzz advised in a reply to my other post, this “hope” is nothing more than a magical thinking – that "love" will overcome his disorder and you both will live happily ever after. But no, that is not possible. Because they probably started hating you before the break up.

Everybody’s story is a little different, so I can’t for sure say the same thing for everyone. But basing on my story, the more I think about this fact (that he probably started hating me before the breakup), the more it’s making sense to me. We had numerous fights before. And there are many occasions when he threatens to leave. Once, he even returned me all my stuff, and wrote a letter to me saying that “pls let me go and find someone who can meet my emotional needs”. He suspected me of having an affair just because I talked about a male colleague more often than I had of any other guys (and that’s because I had not been able/dare to talk about any of my guy friend due to his jealousy issue!). He wanted me to move out of my house (which I’m currently staying with my parents) simply because I spent one holiday session at home and neglected him when he asked me out for dinner. Every time we quarrel, especially towards the last 1 year of the relationship, he would ask me to prove my love to him. And by proving, he wants to see evidence. Eg, when he suspected that I was having an affair w my male colleague, he wanted me to speak ill of him to other colleagues. And I did. When he was jealous about me spending much time at my family, he would want me to move out. And ultimately when he quarreled with my brother, he blames me for taking side with my brother, and wants me to cut ties with him. I am still constantly reminding myself of all these crazy demands to remind myself that, yes, he indeed has very serious issues wrt respecting me and i'm not smearing him.

But besides all these, I also remember all the silent treatments that come along with all these quarrels, and all the begging and clinging I had put myself through to get him back. And I remember how he would always tell me things like “this is your very last chance”, “I’ve already given you a last chance the last time, so why should I trust you again?”, “part of me has died along with this quarrel”, “I’ll just accept that you’ll never put me as a priority and my life will be as such”… No matter how I tried to convince him it is not true, he just wouldn’t believe it. I remember feeling exasperated back then, and utterly confused at seeing how he truly believes in his own interpretation of things and how impossible it is to get through to him. I don’t feel those feelings anymore now, but I definitely remember feeling those feelings.

But of course, now that he is gone, I am suffering from the withdrawal from my drug – him. And like what many of you have kindly replied to my other posts, I am just in my magical thinking and believing that love will bring him back one day. The thing is this. All of us who have been recycled before will inevitably find this hard to rule out this hope, because it has happened before and we are wired to believe that it can happen again. But think about this – did they carry out the promises they made when they came back? Mine told me that he realized he was wrong for not allowing me to meet my friends and etc. Even promise that he will get to know them, which never happen. Of course there are other improvements in him, but now when I look back, I see how his promises and sweet talks were probably nothing but idealization.

When we eventually start NC, we might be doing this because we know we need to stop hurting ourselves. But maybe a part of us are also hoping that with NC, they will realize that we are serious about leaving and they will panic and come back too (I know this defeats the purpose of NC, and I admit I’m guilty having that hope). But as time passed and they still did not reach out to us, reality will set in and we will realize that hey, they are serious about leaving too. And if you do hear news of them thriving after BU or picked up a new hobby or having a new replacement, it would be even more devastating. And we’ll look into ourselves (since so many others have been asking us to look into ourselves), and we’ll start to wonder if it is us who has been pulling them down since they seems to be able to thrive so well now. But if you are having this thought, like me, pls stop right now. This is us, verbally abusing ourselves. We are probably so conditioned to be put down and take responsibility in our r/s with our ex that even now that they are gone, we are still continuing this destructive habit in our mind. (I just read about this today and I finds it such an lifting and reassuring perspective that I just have to share). And I’m just thinking that this probably shows that we still aren’t completely out of FOG, as this self-blaming is simply because we still feel guilty for the end of the relationship.

But back to the point of this topic – what I’m trying to say is, because we are so conditioned to think badly about ourselves, to doubt ourselves, and to long for their goodness, we tend to forget how nasty they really could be and how terrible they made us feel. For me, I seem to have completely forgotten how hurtful he could be, but only remember how sweet and thoughtful he was, and how loving we were. And that is why when I see him posting any FB msg about us, I’ll interpret it as him missing me. But no, when I dig deeper into my memory and to face what I do not want to face, him mentioning me is not out of love, but out of feeling sorry for himself, and the only feeling he felt towards me is probably only hatred and blame. Which is what he has been showing consistently throughout this whole breakup. And this is something that I need to constantly, actively remind myself whenever I slipped back into the ‘idealized’ mood.

With all due respect for him and his sacrifice nonetheless for the past 8 years, I’m sure he did love me. But I also believe he has started resenting me long ago before the breakup. And that is the real reason why we broke up – him unable to get over the resentment he has towards me as a result of his abusive traits.

Thanks for allowing me to share this – I needed to share this to serve as a reminder to myself, and hopefully makes some sense to others who are in the same boat of confusion as me.

   

From "Surviving a Breakup with Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder"

https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/10_beliefs.pdf

"If you believe that your BPD partner was experiencing the relationship in the same way that you were or that they are feeling the same way you do right now, don't count on it. This will only serve to confuse you and make it harder to understand what is really happening.

When any relationship breaks down, it's often because the partners are on a different “page” - but much more so when your partner suffers from borderline personality disorder.

Unknown to you, there were likely significant periods of shame, fear, disappointment, resentment, and anger rising from below the surface during the entire relationship. What you have seen lately is not new - rather it's a culmination of feelings that often arise later in the relationship."

During our last recycle she identified the point when started to build up resentment towards me, which in fact, was her first major rage episode. Few weeks laters, she was already having an affair behind my back and things deteriorated fast, with a few plateus in between. It was lingering below the surface during the entire relationship.

The same happened to her husband. Even described how the flip was switched in her brain. They carried on living together for another 7 years but from that point, she cheated on him with at least a dozen man.

Yup ^... .it's the experience of having a person you thought you knew turn into someone you can't even recognize.  It was honestly one of the most deeply frightening experiences of my life.  It makes you question reality - and your sanity.

Funny you mention this.I thought I was going crazy and I thought I was on the way to a state hospital.I remember telling my friend I did not even know what my own reality was anymore.It was to frieghtening and scary.

What I did may have been wrong but it was out of pure self preservation.I started to go on these missions and find out what the heck the TRUTH WAS.

Thank god I did.She had a whole other life behind my back.Almost like an altered ego lifestyle or a double life.In the end I did get some truths and I ended up with an OOP.

This has been the most frieghtening time of my life dealing with her.I am 47 days NC and my reality and life is coming back to peace and real.

This is a very painful subject, as it is hard to 'give up the dream' so to speak. During the relationship, we were trained to try and hope for the best, to try to be there for them even though it wasn't always easy. So to recognise that they stopped loving us a long time ago is very hard.

But I do see it. It was all there after each honeymoon phase. I've been through 10 recycles and it was, looking back now, so obvious when she would grow sick of me. When she was in love with me, she would love everything about me, I could do no wrong. But when she fell out of love with me (and this happened many times), it would be like I could do nothing right, everything was wrong, all my personality traits were annoying to her.

The last time this happened, it happened while we were living together and I chose to ignore it. I thought I could coast through it, while working on myself (working out, spending more time on my career). But this only delayed the inevitable.

I truly think that instead of the 4,5 years I've been in this relationship, it would have been better to stop it after a year or so, when the idealization was gone and the devaluation started to begin. It would have saved me so much effort, money and time. Not to mention the fact that I wasn't completely addicted to her by then. Now its a full blown detox, I might lose my job and might need to get intense therapy and medication. But its all worth it to become happy eventually, to get over the hell she has put me through. Or the hell I've let myself been put through, I suppose.

Its funny. I noticed she would not wear jewlery I bought her, left it haphazardly about, started cutting my daughter out of her life, started cutting me out of her life, texts falling way off, not wanting to hold hands, yeah, I saw it. Refused to believe it. Refused to see it. I do now, but then? I wanted love. I didnt get it. Probably never had it. Sad. All I wanted I was denied.

Once we were married, there was a pervasive aura of underlying resentment. He perceived me as his competition and a threat because marriage made him vulnerable to getting hurt and abandoned.  He immediately began breaking me down and isolating me. We got married and started a business which added an entirely different layer of resentment.  My husband is seriously passive-aggressive and so, he was always in destructive mode- working against me, opposing me even to the point of harming himself and his business.  He truly developed such severe oppositional disorder that I had to constantly use ' reverse psychology' in order to get him to behave in a productive way.  I remember last summer when he had to get take out for dinner ( always a nightmare for me) and I had to tell him to get the very thing I didn't want in order to get him to buy the thing I did want.  This worked 99 percent of the time. Imagine having to live that way every day and trying to stay sane!  I always felt like I was playing a high stress game with him.  I could never ask him to do anything or for anything because I would pay dearly. 

Communication with my husband was not normal at all.  I had to be very careful what I said and how I said it.  If I indicated any urgency or need, he would make certain that he would delay, delay, delay and not follow through. 

This is no way to live and it has really harmed me on so many levels.

Your comment about how we tend to remember them in a more positive light after the relationship ends is quite normal.  I knew that could happen with me because I've always remembered people in a more positive light- especially when things aren't going so well in my current life.  So, I kept a journal of all the insanity for over 14 years.  In the beginning, I didn't know what was wrong. I couldn't make any sense of anything that was going wrong in my marriage.  There were times when I felt truly bat sh** crazy and thought I would end up in an institution.  I sent an updated copy of my journal to my best friend every week because I feared being institutionalized and no one ever knowing why or what was happening.  My journal kept me sane and it has also helped me to remember specific facts in real time and  just how seriously and pathologically bad my marriage was and not to waste time in regret or wondering if it could have been better. I gave 100 percent to my marriage the entire time, regardless of the pain and suffering I endured. 

Every time I read a self help article I would think, ' OH, I should send this to my husband' as if he would read it and be instantly cured.  The other day I had the same knee-jerk reaction to a self help article I read and caught myself, realized I wasn't nurse Ratchet anymore and laughed at the absurdity of it all. 

Keep a journal and refer to it when you need to.  Trust me, reading about specific incidents will instantly catapult you back into reality.  I can't even read an entire page from mine now without feeling nauseated.   

I realised this a long time ago. Looking back id say it started over a year before we finally split up.

I believe this is why pwBPD dont seem to mourn the loss of the relationship as they have already done it in the relationshio. This is why they seem to move on so quickly.

That is a very good point and sheds alot of light on why I feel so non existent now since the end of the r/s.

Hi Deeno

It was yet another lightbulb moment when I realised that we had actually been over a long time before the end. I wonder if like me you had a point of no return in your relationship where no matter what you did you could never repair the relationship. It wasat that point for me that ahe had probably decided we werent worth it.

Hard to narrow down as it seemed I was getting bi monthly your a bad boyfriend speeches after the 6-7 month mark. She did say to me at the final rage she should have dumped my ass in May. Thats when my daughter moved back home from college and I rescheduled our vacation planning to a later date. Petty sounding, I know, but why else mention it?

Yes, this was one of the harder things to accept post b/u... .that I was still invested and still trying... .but it had been over for her for a while.

It sounds like your daughter moving back was the turning point. I realised with my exgf that my kids where the one thing that she feared as she knew they were the one thing that would always put her in second place in my priorities.

Yep.My story too.She painted me black 60 days prior before she left and found another place to live...

Very evil people and ill.They do not care who they destroy in there path and they leave the mess for us to clean up.

SELFISH!

Me Too!   So maybe her calling child services on me to try to get my children taken away was actually her trying to set us up for a better chance at a recycle!    I would not put anything past that brain?

I do believe that. She called my daughter some very bad things at the final rage and thats when it hit me she became jealous of my daughter, that, and I just couldnt do anything right. So, not only did I have to try and fix myself, but my daughter as well. My daughter loved her so much and it was just a shame how it ended. Nothing but scorch and burn and poof, in a r/s with a college buddy the following week. Oh well. Next?

Hi Deeno02 and enlighten me --

Yeah, I can relate. In my case, Deeno02, it seemed to be just me who experienced the last straw moments. Really, there were a number of them, starting pretty early on in our r-ship, repeating throughout, and not going away despite 2 significant break-ups. Then again, if you take them back, you have to wonder how significant the break up was, in hindsight, for them.


I got the bad BF lectures pretty regularly, too -- starting 6 mos into our r-ship, after our first Christmas together, when she assumed that the tiny little package I'd wrapped in the stocking I made for her was an engagement ring. It wasn't -- and from that point forward, I was routinely subjected to the "what is this?" interrogation, wrt to our r-ship, my level of commitment, who was giving more to the r-ship, blah, blah, blah blahblahblahgggh *gag* barf. 

In the end, I decided we weren't worth it, because she argued consistently that, when you truly loved someone "the way I love you" (she'd say), "you accept them exactly as they are." For me, it was cumulative. There really wasn't any last straw, so to speak. I just lost the will to try anymore.

A person doesn't grieve the loss of something  that they were never emotionally invested in.   The BPD- especially those with NPD- can sever ties very easily because 'we' didn't exist as an individual person to begin with. They are emotional vampires that literally absorb our emotions, draining us until we are dry.  What we thought we had in the relationship was an illusion.  Our partners were never emotionally invested in us, they were using us a prop for them to create their own identity. They mimicked our emotions, likes/dislikes, passions, hobbies, compassion or empathy and our grief but they are empty shells incapable of producing genuine emotion all on their own. There were probably times when you thought you had a lot in common with this person but that's an illusion.  We don't have anything in common with them.  Rather, it's that they assume/absorb our identity so, we're looking at our own reflection in many ways and when they split, it's because they have absorbed other people's personalities and may seem to be opposing themselves as we knew them.  For example, my husband would agree with me that we wanted a chocolate pie and once I made or bought the pie, he would say that he hated chocolate. At some point, he had become someone else that he knew who he was identifying with in that moment who hated chocolate. His splitting would drive me nuts and it's that kind of dialogue that would send me into severe anxiety, fear, insecurity, confusion and question my own sense of reality.  We imagined them being in the relationship but the relationship was one-sided with you providing all the emotional input. You suffer the loss because you were emotionally invested- they don't suffer the loss like we do and can move on to greener pastures.  My BPD husband is only inconvenienced by the  loss of housekeeper, dishwasher, book keeper, bill-payer, cook and frankly, I'm not convinced that he even perceives those losses as an inconvenience.  He can replace me easily with someone else who will do those things for him but he never cared about having a nice home or a nice meal and he certainly never valued anything I did for our business.   So, no loss of 'relationship' for him- just loss of identity and like all vampires, they can find another human to mimic.   

This truth is a hard pill to swallow but it takes two to tango and we chose them and allowed the relationship.  Hopefully, we will all shift our focus away from their issues and toward our own healing so that we become healthy strong confident adults who won't revisit this experience again.

Freaky to read this --


All of that stuff is almost verbatim what my uBPDxgf has been saying about me for the past 5 months. All of it.

On the other hand, depending on how you look at it, this could accurately describe my behavior --


In other posts, member JRT is working on understanding where the line is between trying to make something you care about work, and accepting when you've tried enough, and not feeling responsible for solving everything. Both he and I have talked about a trait we share -- which is feeling like we can't really walk away from relationships until we feel like we've exhausted every possibility to make it work. That's certainly been my pattern -- and the liability of my approach seems to be exactly this -- that, by the time I do decide to throw in the towel, I'm pretty much over it. And I'm not sure that's really a liability, so much as a natural outcome of being present in the relationship, even during it's decline. That and I've been at this for 3 years, and have already been through 2 major breakups with my ex.

I also don't really agree with the concept that the pwBPD was "never" really in the r-ship -- I don't think that's accurate. I think, like everything else on the BPD spectrum, it's always shifting, fluid, labile, fungible -- because they never really know where they "are" -- which is directly related to their lack of identity (ie, knowing "who" they are), they simply are wherever they are, emotionally. Or, better -- they are wherever their emotions are. It's generally not about you -- it's mostly about what they're feeling. So, they may be feeling disappointed -- and that's all they feel at the time. Then they feel mad. Then sad. Then angry. Then frightened. Then ashamed. Then mad. Then angry. Then depressed. Then you talk, and they feel calm. Then in love. Then scared. Then worried. Then sad. Then insecure. Then angry. It goes on and on -- and you're simply there. In the case of my ex, I really don't think she ever did anything intentionally to hurt me -- everything she did she did to cope with her own madness. A lot of it did hurt me, but that wasn't what she was trying to do -- she was just trying to survive, emotionally, to preserve whatever shards of joy she thought she'd found with me. In a big, sad way -- it wasn't personal. But she was there.

Give new meaning to the phrase "it is what it is," huh? It's actually a pretty sane statement -- I fail to understand the recent backlash against it over the past few years. Arguably lots of other stupid phrases people could obsess over, imo.

In the end, I agree that we have to take responsibility for choosing to be in these relationships, and choosing to stay after we began to experience distress as a result of the relationships.

Hi leaving

im afraid I have to disagree. Just because pwBPD dont invest emotionally the same way we do doesnt mean they dont emotionally invest. It is more of the emotional investment of a child to a parent. I can guarantee that thr majority of pwBPD feel the loss of a relationship. If it wasnt the case then why do so many on here get the backlash and abuse post break up. This is the response of a hurt child not of an emotionless being. I have also been informed of my ex wifes behaviour when we split up and that also was full of emotion for her loss even if never shown to me.

There are also many posts on sites for pwBPD that talk of them being upset by the break up.

The only personality type that wouldnt be affected is a psycopath.

I think it's hard to tell because of how distorted their thinking is. We broke up in October, and from June to September it seemed like she was ramping up the amount of things that drove wedges between us. But I wonder if it was really that we were finally getting rid of outside stresses (like selling the old house) and she feared being in a steady state relationship.

I have had a very stable (often boring until a few years ago) life, and operate in terms of 'here is my baseline, I'll deal with disruptions to it as they come up'. She, on the other hand, has a wildly unstable life (lots of BPD-pattern short, intense relationships and one really bad long running one, poor money management leading to credit/housing issues) and thinks of that as normal, more like  'OK, this crisis is over, got to brace for the next big one while I deal with the two little ones that have been going on'. I think that a lot of things that she did that made me think 'are you just trying to mess up our relationship' were really her being scared of ending up in a stable situation and that push-pull fear that she wouldn't be able to handle a stable situation, so I'd leave her because that's what I want, so she'll keep it from happening so I won't have that reason to leave.


One of the things I think my relationship taught me was that sometimes the only way to win is to walk away. I used to feel like that quote very strongly, but I think the 'stay until you've tried everything' mentality has been burned away from me, especially after hearing some of the post-relationship comments.

Enlighten, I agree with you that they often invest and react like small egocentric children but a child's ego isn't developed as an adult's and therefore, they don't invest like adults if they invest at all.  In many cases, it's more that they react.  My husband is NPD/BPD like my mother and both of them will sever ties without an ounce of remorse, no backlash directed at their ' victims' and move on very quickly.  My mother had always dumped her friends very quickly when they cross her path in some way and she never speaks of them again. As a child I thought it was so weird that ' auntie Fran' would suddenly disappear from my life as well as my father and stepfather.  My husband is the same way with his "friends".  My husband did behave a little more like a child than my mother but he went into extreme disconnect and detachment within minutes of me announcing that I was leaving.  He became very cold, distant, arrogant and downright mean in a passive aggressive way.   It's very bizarre how someone can just disconnect that way and many relatives have questioned my mother's ability to do this with her own children.  Sadly, they are in desperate need to find a new supply of admiration and sympathy and so, they quickly move on.  In a twisted sort of way, I almost envy their survival skills.

One of the reasons I left my husband was that he was a manipulative con who would fake caring about me to other people and gain sympathy from others who believed that I was a terrible wife who abandoned him and didn't appreciate him. He's so innocent and charming and yet at home nothing like that. All his emotions were fake. He was a master at mimicking and he knew how he should behave and that's what he did.  I quit going anywhere with him in public because he would pretend to care about me in front of other people.  I don't know what your wife was like but I can tell you that just because these people display grief to others after we leave doesn't always mean they are genuinely grieving.  For example, my husband never spoke to his sister for over 20 years, never had anything to do with her children, never had a nice thing to say about her and didn't even know her birthday even though I was in touch with her.  Then when she got cancer and died, he received a card from his coworkers ( who assumed he was grief stricken) which immediately triggered him to manufacture grief in order to get even more attention and sympathy.  Next thing I knew, our customers were calling, sending cards and my husband being so full of himself accused me of being cold and not caring even though I was the one who stayed in contact with her and her children and researched her cancer, therapy, etc...    I was so disgusted by his behavior. He's an opportunist who uses someone else's pain and suffering to glean attention for himself. YUK.

PwBPD do not mourn the loss of an object. Their abandoment fear kicks in and they seek out a new supply.

I agree with the above, although it's hard because one of my core values is that you should stand by committed relationships/marriages.  That was not one of her core values, and it's why the r/s ended.

I hate to think that I should change my values because I was involved with a disordered person.  I would rather keep my values and do a better job of choosing someone who shares my values.

The one thing that caused me the most suffering was that I had to compromise all my values in order to survive in my marriage.  I even quit going to Temple because I felt so ashamed and that I was a hypocrite woman/wife who tolerated an abusive husband.  I know that I spoke out against my husband's immoral behavior but that only created drama and was pointless and didn't make me feel any better about myself.  After all, he wasn't going to change and he didn't care about my values other than to pretend that they were HIS values when he would talk to other people.  He projected his own immoral and unethical personality on me and projected my personality to other people.  It's all so weird and disturbing.  He even assumed my religious identity and became obsessed with being Jewish ( he's Christian).

A therapist told me the other day that for me to have continued fulfilling my duties as a wife and partner ( other than sex- I quit having sex with him long ago) and not become resentful and neglectful says a lot about my good character and that I should feel good about that and realize that I'm strong and courageous and will survive this.  I made her promise that I would. 

Again I have to disagree. What you have to bear in mind is that they are emotionally trapped as a child.  I agree they do not mourn loss like we do. It is more self absorbed. If you think how devastated a child can be for their loss whether its a toy or a pet you will see how a pwBPD deals with loss. It is a case of "I will mever see/ play with... .again" "I will never do... .again" etc etc it is about what they are losing out on so even an object can be mourned by them.

I don't think that changing the rule to 'stick with a relationship as long as the other person is working to fix it too' doesn't change the fundamental belief there IMO, but does give you an out other than tearing your soul into pieces if you find yourself in a relationship with someone who can't or won't deal with the reality of what is happening. The problem with 'choosing someone who shares my values' is that people with BPD (and some other issues) are good at appearing to share your values until you've made a commitment, and sometimes people change over time. Staying in a toxic relationship with someone who won't work to fix it does no one any good, and I don't consider pointless self-destruction an actual virtue.

I think this is why we need to be carefull with sweeping generalizations.  It will depend on the situation.  What may often happen is a pwBPD experiences all I the mourning or what would be mourning durring the relationship but express it by raging or crying and dysregulation.  Then the the defence mechenisms kick in and compartmentalize and project untill we identify with their mourning and they can leave us with all of the pain.  It will depend on a number of variables but each situation is different.  Each pwBPD is also different the defence mechenisms are universal and the better we understand them and different schema modes the more sense it will make.

I think it comes down to differentiating between ego or external suffering vs. heart-centered internal suffering.  When we lose someone that we loved, we feel the loss of a whole person and an emotional relationship at a spiritual level that encompasses many dimensions of our human experience together.

Yes, they mourn objects because those objects validate them. The ego is resistant to change like when a spouse leaves but doesn't feel grief internally as heart break but more as a threat to their own survival. The ego is defensive, combative and competitive and driven to seek pleasure and avoid discomfort.  Egos react to pain and suffering by immediately replacing it with pleasure.

I can only base my perceptions of my husband on what I have observed in my own life and in others.  I've seen the most hardened heart grieve the loss of a loved one in some genuine observable way but I have not observed that in my husband or his parents.  I've only observed manufactured responses that resemble emotional grief only because he knows how to behave, with whom, when it's appropriate and he's only motivated to do that because he doesn't want to look like a bad person who doesn't care.  There is no heart or conscience in his behavior- only ego.  I always considered that some things in this life are just too painful for him to deal with so he avoids but that theory didn't hold up for long since I noticed how he could be two opposite people - a selfish unfeeling man who would turn on his emotions only to gain attention or sympathy from others.  You know the old saying, ' What would you do if no one was watching?' My husband is only a nice, ethical moral man when someone outside of our marriage is watching and could be judging him. 

Yep.  May 2013 (15 months before she asked for a divorce).  My ex became obsessed with moving out of the town where I was working.  And while I made an effort, even had a few promising interviews, I never managed to land anything (all the while she quit every job except for the one where I was her boss, and made no effort to find work elsewhere).  It had become a point of contention between us, but not full blown resentment.  That is, until my secretary and her husband moved out of state.  Within her own mind, she had apparently been in direct competition with my secretary to see who would leave first (and to lose to someone she saw as less than her was unacceptable). 

Almost as soon as they left, the underlying resentment was apparent and the dynamic of our relationship shifted.  She spent more time away than at home over the last 15 months, becoming more distant and bitter with each extended leave.

In retrospect, this period of resentment may have been a blessing in disguise.  Though I wasn't consciously willing to accept the inevitable direction of the relationship at the time, I was able to begin processing my situation internally.  It allowed me a head start on the grieving and self-reflection process that I've continued since things finally went south.  I hate to think how bad of shape I would have been in had I not had this head start.

I agree with this.

BPDs are still individuals and lie along a spectrum.

So, it is useful to talk about specific BPD traits, but I don't think we should overgeneralize to the specific case.

My uBPDexgf wanted things to work, and I think she loved me in her own way, but there was a background of emotion that she was dealing with and that she hid from me.  I think she was aware enough to know that half the things she felt towards me had nothing to do with me and that these emotions she was having were potentially toxic to the relationship.

So, I knew some of her, but did not really know her that well inside and out.

She was often withdrawn, sullen, and quiet because she was disassociating or dealing with her feelings.  I think it gave her little resources left to expend upon us.

I think for many of the pwBPD in our respective lives, this is a true and compassionate statement:


Thank you, raisins3142. Hope you're doing well.

I agree enlighten. My ex went into a very deep depression for 6 months after she dumped me so I disagree when some say they are not emotionally invested. Remember BPDs feel everything 1000% their love is on steroids and so is their hate.

There is an inclination to mistake emotional intensity for depth.

Boris I agree that the emotions felt by a pwBPD are different to ours. What my point is is that they do have feelings of loss and are capable of mourning the loss of a relationship. Yes it is a selfishness they display such as that of a child losing their favourite toy but it is a hurt that they feel.

I do not for one minute believe they are emotionally mature enough to have the depth of feeling we do.

As they are thinking of renaming BPD as emotional unstable dissorder this indicates that the underlying trait is their emotional instability as opposed to a lack of emotion. I feel that if a pwBPD was in a relationship and walked away without any feelings then their partner wasnt special to them. Havent we all been out with someone we werent that commited to? I know I have a couple of exs that when we split it didnt cause me any concern as I wasnt emotionally invested in them. It was more of something to do than looking for something serious.

Your observation is correct, it was referred to as "selfism" by Erkin, a tendency to regard most situations in an egocentric or selfish manner.

If they could work through abandonment depression then the disrtorted beleif system of the borderlines would not exist.

From Borderline Conditions and Pathological Narcissism Otto F. Kernberg p. 35

Their depressive reactions take primitive forms of impotent rage and feelings of defeat by external forces, rather than mourning over good, lost objects and regret over their aggression toward themselves and others.

Reinforcing Kernberg's observation, Masterson in his book, Psychotherapy Of The Borderline Adult(p. 323)described the clinical experience of how a patient avoided mourning following the death of her daughter, using primite defense mechanisms instead.


It all depends on what meaning we assign to the term. We could say they experience a pathological form of mourning, according to Marsha Linehant [they]automatically inhibit the process by avoiding or distracting themselves from the relevant cues.

I agree on this. I believe they do invest emotionally as well. It's just very unfortunate that they are just unable to sustain the relationship due to their own issues.

My counsellor told me that the main difference b/w a BPD vs NPD is that BPD do connect emotionally, it's just that they tend to withdraw after some issues. But NPD do not connect emotionally.

That's a very good angle to consider the question from.

Hi Enlighten,

No, he's not a psychopath even though in the beginning I often wondered if he was.  He does have sociopathic traits but different character disorders often share common traits which makes it difficult for clinicians to make an accurate diagnosis- especially since these people never seek help on their own.  Psychopaths are narcissists but not all narcissists are psychopaths. Schizoid personality disorder shares similar traits with the P but they aren't P's. A P doesn't have a conscience.  Sociopaths often assume other people's personality traits because they have no authentic self. Narcissists will do the same thing.  My therapist said that my husband behaves like a sociopath  but that he's too concerned with maintaining a good public image and does know the difference between right and wrong ( has a conscience but no integrity) and respects those boundaries relative to himself at work, with neighbors, etc... However, at home, he's a covert abusive passive aggressive child.  He would never hit me because that would be too obvious and get him into trouble but he does other things to undermine me and harm me and it's always an ' accident'. He never meant to do anything, never did anything intentionally.   Just to ' enlighten' you ( no pun intended), my husband was diagnosed last year as BPD/NPD with a dual diagnosis of addiction.   My husband's addictions vary - anything from sinus meds to exercise, work, food ( especially sugar), religions and more.  It's really bizarre to observe how he will replace one addiction with the other. He is always in a state of seeking pleasure- getting endorphins and stimulating his dopamine receptors.  There is a genetic component in his addiction and character disorder but his BPD/NPD is grounded in his early development and as you say, he's stuck there.  His father was a controlling micromanaging patriarch who used corporeal punishment and religion to control his family.  His mother was an only child who had no emotionally available mother ( her mother was an abused orphan and lived on medications her entire life) and so, she too has impaired emotional development and was unable to be emotionally available to her children.   My husband was never loved unconditionally, never loved or seen as an individual with unique needs,  and he was never allowed to express his anger or anything negative without being beaten.  Hence, passive-aggression.

My husband's covert abuse has been so damaging to our well-being and our finances.  His PA behavior  almost sent me to the looney bin.   But, it's the BPD that makes it impossible for us to communicate and for him to respond to therapy and therefore, we can't make any progress.  He's like two different people who oppose each other all the time- the good and the bad. I never know who I'm talking to in any given moment and I have to phrase my questions in several different ways in order to arrive at the truth in what he's telling me. It's exhausting.  He is an avid fisherman and he came to me last summer, crying tears and told me that he could never fish again because he knew it hurt the fish and disrupted their natural behavior. I didn't put much stock in his words because I figured he had watched something on TV or met someone he admired who said those things.  Sure enough, a week later, he received a new fishing pole from a customer who owned a big fishing company ( he manipulated the customer into giving him one)  and took that man and another person fishing. I commented that I thought he didn't want to fish and he blew up at me and made all sorts of crazy excuses.  C'est la vie with the BPD.  Everything is either good or bad and there is nothing in between.  He can't reason, can't be objective or logical and his underdeveloped ego is always on the defensive which means that he interprets anything said to him as an assault on him. One Christmas early in our marriage he was angry at his parents for not calling him and I suggested he call them and he said, ' Why should I call them, they never call me!" and I said, ' Well, try to put yourself in their shoes and understand that maybe they feel uncomfortable and insecure calling and interfering with your other plans' and he blew up at me in front of my family and said, ' I SEE HOW YOU ARE!  Whose side are you on!  It's just like you to take my mother's side!" and my mother tried to reason with him and calm him down but he couldn't get it and walked off in a huff angry at me.  Reasoning with a BPD is impossible because their thinking is so polarized.  He's always keeping score, always comparing everything in black and white.  When he was diagnosed with BPD he said to the therapist, so, if I have BPD then what does she have (ref to me). When we go into a store and I put something int he cart  he has to put something in the cart for himself.  He doesn't realize that I am buying for ' us' and only sees me having control and buying things for myself and accuses me of being selfish and spoiled. When I tell him that I would be glad for him to make the list and do the shopping, he backs down and says, ' You're right, you do everything perfect, you're perfect, you do it".   Ah, it's like shopping with a two year old.

Last year he began therapy with an intern who was not specialized or experienced enough to know what she was dealing with.  Oh my gosh Enlighten.  That's when I moved into a hotel because I truly felt like I was going to lose my mind. She knew he was PA so she began assertiveness training. My husband's splitting became very intense.  She turned him into an aggressive monster and I couldn't even get out of bed and walk into the kitchen without him verbally attacking me.  He began unloading all his anger toward his parents on me and accusing me of being abusive and neglecting him and then he would say, ' but you're great, you've been so good for us and good to me'.    He became obsessed with exercise, refused to eat ( anorectic) and became so thin that customers were concerned he was sick.  All the while he began lecturing me that I am fat and going to die from poor health.  At one point he became psychotic and he smeared feces on the freshly cleaned rug in our bathroom ( PA behavior) to punish me.  That's when I truly freaked out and called the woman's shelter for help.  They contacted his therapist and told her what was happening.  That's when they brought in the psychiatrist/specialist and he got a proper diagnosis.  I share this mainly because I want people to know that therapy with the wrong therapist can actually be dangerous to those living with someone with BPD.

Communication is so difficult because it's  truly like talking to Jeckyll and Hyde at the same time. He always splits during his conversations.  He opposes himself in the same sentence because he's unable to make a commitment or make an accurate and honest statement in the affirmative.   He will tell me he is going to do something and I'll arrange our schedule around his and then he will do something entirely different and never tell me- like saying he's going to do a certain job that day but then decides not to and I've made our schedule, contacted clients, etc... When I confront him about how his lack of communication creates problems in our business he accuses me of keeping him on a leash, controlling him and being abusive.  Having an adult discussion  with him, is impossible.  In one sentence he will say, ' I'm sick of that man, I'm going to fire him, I'm fed up with him but he's a good guy and I'll call him today and get him to do that job'  It's really sad to see him struggle so to 'find himself' but it made me feel psychotic and crazy.  He doesn't exist as a man of his own nature.  I can always tell when he's met a new customer or person because he will come home and mimic their likes, dislikes, beliefs, etc...  

Our employees would come to me and tell me that they could not work with him because he refused to train them, ignored them all day and treated them like he was angry at them. The problem was that he perceived them as a threat.  If a customer liked our employees or paid attention to them then  he would get jealous and think the customer hated him and want to quit working for them.  When any of our customers request that he do something different than he had planned, he dumps them and says they are horrible people, he hated working for them and that they were nothing but trouble.  He thrives on positive attention and it has to be ALL positive or else it's ALL bad.  He can't negotiate, compromise.  He hears and perceives everything through and relative to his defensive negative ego.

I was always between a rock and a hard place and I had to give up so much of my life, work, hobbies and passions in order to survive in this marriage.  Everything I did was a threat to him.  As a result, I ended up isolated, unemployed, no friends or family.  I never wanted to be his parent or the only adult in our home but I ended up in that role because he was such an irresponsible, erratic, oppositional child and someone had to take the reigns. Unfortunately, he resented my role and punished me all the time.  

Sorry to ramble so much.  I have trouble describing things in writing anymore and can be very wordy.

It's ok, Leaving.   I totally get it. If you've read any of my posts, I'm sure you've noticed I tend to do the same thing, and sometimes I'm self-conscious about it -- but even when I'm aware of it, and try not to ramble (not saying that you are, just commiserating with you), it happens, because trying to explain the absurd situations that we find ourselves in with these partners takes a lot of words. I know in my own case, I often feel like, without a lot of background and detail, anyone in their right mind would read half of what I post and thing, "wait, what? really? are you sure?... ."

They're complicated creatures!

Hang in there.

I agree with you but it goes both ways.  The pwBPD validated us. We lost our narcisistic supply we lost our validating object. Except many of us stuck around for a while waiting for crumbs of validation or hoping because we loved them that they would comeback around. They often do come back around but it cycles and recycles around and around.

We were not just a validating object we were like their universe and they were our imaginary friend.

It's just that once the disorder is triggered we are no longer compatible with whatever new thing they have decided to attach to because that's their new universe.  

The pwBPDs sense of self is not autonomous their sense of self is the fantasy other imaginary friend role people have constructed as a part of the nons "false self."

Some of the pwBPD that have Npd or aspd comorbidities or traits will have a more autonomous "false self" construct.

But yea looking back I definately realize my ex began resenting me before the actual breakup. I stuck around becuase I figured she would come around.  I now recognize that is a pattern in my past trlationships where I hit this sort of blockage in the other person and I wait it out hoping they will open their eyes. I picked up this trait from my foo. Yay

I believe the moment she first started resenting me was when I figured out she wasn't the friendly and chirpy false self she tries so hard to illustrate to the world.

That, for me, was the beginning of the end.

Once they know you have their number, the game, and the relationship, is as good as cooked.

As much as I with it weren't true, I have to agree.


Maybe more accurate would be that, as soon as they know we have their number, the gaming begins. Really, at that point, both parties would probably be best to cut their losses and move on -- but at that point, usually we've already boarded the BPD Train, and we're left wondering how we got on it, and where the next stop is.

As far as resentment, I felt that my ex had different categories of resentment. She resented that... .

• I caught on to the inconsistencies in words and actions.



• I could identify the patterns in her dysfunctional behavior and, eventually, some of the triggers.



• Once it was clear that she had issues, she couldn't blame all of the negative feelings that didn't fit anywhere else on me.



• I was able to manage my day-to-day life obligations, stresses and anxieties.



• I was healthier than her.



• I had more friends than her.



• I had a successful career and she didn't.



• I have good relationships with my FOO.



• I have more self-discipline.

I could go on, but even making the list feels mean-spirited -- not my intent. (Funny how so many pwBPD seem to relish this kind of exercise.) Thing is, we need to remember that BPD is a shame-based PD -- and B&W thinking is very readily applied to comparisons and judgement -- which triggers self-criticism, which causes psychic pain, which triggers dysfunctional coping mechanisms... .

Yep. Yay alright.

Hey. It's Friday.

  It's ironic that you wrote about their fantasy life and false self because I was just cleaning up some business photos and found over one hundred selfies and videos that my husband took of himself.  I couldn't believe my eyes.  He looks horribly evil in all the photos but maybe that's just my perception.  I think I just grossed out from watching him admire himself like he's in love with himself.  He is so full of himself all the time.  Every morning he would stand in front of his mirror for a half hour with his legs spread and his arms bowed out ... you know? Posturing like a puffed up gorilla and just stare at himself.   He was always selfish, self absorbed and 'off' but I didn't realize that his abnormal behavior was that pathological and chronic.  It's so easy to excuse and over-look abnormal behavior in the beginning of a relationship.  In my case, he never validated me and was not my narcissistic supply.  I never needed him and that in itself was a threat as much as a golden opportunity for him to use me.  I know I was codependent and therefore sought some validation in serving him, I suppose expecting that he would at some point appreciate my efforts but I never looked to him for any validation mainly because I didn't think I was worthy of any.   I think that comes from being raised by an NPD mother and therefore always being invisible.  I was taught to serve and expect nothing back which works great if I'm volunteering at the shelter soup kitchen but not in a marriage.  Relationships with narcissists are always ONE-WAY.  He never made me feel special or worthy or even alive and while I'm not one to seek external gratification and accolades it would have been nice to know that he cared about me and respected me as an individual and not just an extension of himself. I think I could have accepted him telling me that he wasn't happy with me and wanted to leave.  I get that.  But, he would never say that and would keep me on a roller coaster of push/pull and as awful as this may sound to you, I used to pray that he would find someone else that cared about him and would take care of him. It got to the point that I didn't want him in my life at all because I was suffering the repeated abuses day after day.  I simply couldn't afford to live with him and it was taking a serious toll on my health.

  I didn't marry him because I wanted or needed anyone in my life. I was successful and had my own business and was doing alright alone.  I know this may sound like a cop-out but it's the truth-  I married him because my NPD/BPD mother chewed me out for not wanting to marry him. My husband went to her and charmed her and told her he wanted to marry me. When she called me to tell me this, I told her that I didn't think he would be a good husband.  She said I was selfish, didn't want to be happy, didn't want to share my fortunate life and would be alone the rest of my life if I didn't give back by taking care of him. She told me that I should be more like Jenny in Forest Gump.   Oh gosh, I could kick myself for listening to her and internalizing all that nonsense.   In truth, she was my problem/issue and because of her, I ended up with my current husband and my brother ended up with a woman just like our mother. Both of us are now in the middle of divorce and it's been awful.  I believe that being with my husband served a very necessary purpose of helping me heal from my relationship with my mother.  Same for my brother. We've grown by leaps and bounds, are so much wiser and are aware of this disorder and all it encompasses and both of us are more or less estranged from our mother now. 

Thank you for telling me that and understanding.   I feel so cognitively impaired these days.  Yes, it's very difficult trying to explain what the heck we go through.  That's why I quit trying for so many years and isolated from the rest of the world.  I still remain very quiet about it all and just write in my journal and talk to my counselor.  People just don't get it unless they've been through it and there is nothing worse than spilling your heart to someone and having them look at you like you're nuts or exaggerating.   

I know. Try to do something for yourself that you enjoy this weekend. The path may be rocky now, but it clears up eventually. Just keep yourself pointed in the right direction.

Leaving,

I can relate to what you said.  It's hard for me to admit because I struggled against the idea I was codependent and I still have trouble with the label.  But yeah your bf sounds like npd/BPD comorbid and I tend to struggle because I really can not stand people with NPD which is an issue I have been working on having a step mom on a subclinical level of npd but very narcisistic.  It's set a lot of patterns of self destruction in my life as well.

My poison of choice is the quiet borderline.  A very different breed in so many ways. 

It sounds like you've been making big steps in your therapy and in your process of self discovery. 

Drummer, do you believe that she was invested in you or was she just suffering fear of being alone?  If you asked her what she was depressed about what do you think she would have said?   Like babies who are left sitting on a mat alone, they cry and cry until someone picks them up.  That person could be anyone and doesn't have to be their mom or dad. I think we sometimes assign grief to someone who is frightened, insecure and hates being alone. Some people need to be touched all the time.  I've seen people appear grief stricken but it had nothing to do with losing their beloved but more about fear,change and being alone. It's frightening for me to imagine being alone but I'm sure it's even more frightening for my husband.  He needs the presence of other people or he gets very anxious like somoene trying to quit smoking or drinking.   He can't even stand being alone for one day without some type of human contact. 

I didn't know anything about BPD until a few years ago when my therapist mentioned that it sounded like my husband had it. She didn't go into great depth and I was still very unclear as to what it was.  I remember asking her if I should bring my husband in for joint therapy and she said that she thought my time was better spent trying to get strong and out of the relationship.  I feel as you do about N's.  I truly have such an aversion to them now.  When I think back on my relatioinships, there were a few of them and now I know that I'm an N-magnet or rather, was! 

I hope you are getting therapy with someone who specializes in N and can help you with your stepmother.  It's awful when a parent is an N. 

There are all sorts of levels of codependency. Dont' feel bad about that label. The world goes round because of codependent and interdependent relationships.  Most people would never know me as codependent.  I'm strong, independent, transparent, direct but when it comes to intimate/romantic relationships with men ( especially later in life) I felt that I should be there to help them achieve their dreams and neglected my own. It's complicated.  I was always told that I was very blessed, very fortunate, that everyone else was worse off than me. I know now why  my mother told me those things but her words really harmed my perception of myself relative to others. I worked hard to support my first husband through med school and I loved him dearly.  He loved me but my mother hated him and kept telling me that I was not his type... blah blah blah so, I divorced him.  Nonetheless, I should have never sacrificed my own dreams for his.   I've realized in recent months that I never had any dreams, no direction really because that part of me was never allowed to blossom.  I couldn't even imagine doing something just for myself.  Everything I did or had just sort of fell into my lap.  Not that I was given things.  I did make things happen but I didn't do it with any real passion.  It's very very difficult for me to be selfish.  Well, I must run.  I've got to get to a small concert and it's very cold.  Must warm up my car and hit the road!  Have a good evening.

She is not incredibly bad but she has a tendency to turn my girlfriends against me by planting the idea in their heads of how she percieves me.  Over all it is really annoying and immature. My birth mom is a pretty severe case of BPD and she is or can be OCD. Somehow my dad does not get hurt by these women.  He himself is pretty cut off from his emotions and stuck in his own thing. 

In any case I am not a npd magnet but a quiet BPD magnet.  Quiet BPDs can actually be some of the kindest and most considerate people of all, that is untill the disorder is triggered.