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So... .I think I'm calmed down now... .and the crisis has past... .but... .I need to make some changes... .I'm going to need help making and sticking to those changes.

So... .we are in different city for a wedding.  At one of her (wife) relatives houses.

Things are going ok until out of nowhere my 6 year old starts crying... .and my wife starts screaming at me to "get the remote" (we were watching TV)... .I looked at her with a bemused look... .and she had daggers in her eyes... .

Screaming about ff kid being hurt... .

I'm sure I was not nice about saying that I didn't understand how her yelling helped that... .she drug kid into other room and started to look at him.

I get it figured out the kid has been bitten by a dog in the face.

I head to other room... .he is crying... .she is "venting" about how unhelpful I am... can't believe I would b___ about her when ff kid is bit.

Again... I'm sure I was not kind in what I said... .or how I asked a question... .

His eye didn't look good... .but didn't look "threatening" either... .hard to describe.  I suggested we take him to dr... .just to be safe.  I don't want to quote the exchange... .but she thought the idea was "ridiculous"

I got a towel and some ice... .and asked her to apply it to kids face... she did for 10-15 seconds... and then her sister started yammering on about how it needed neosporin.  The ice was off... ointment on... kid drug to other room where tv is. 

Wife has maintained control of kid with hands on the entire time.

I sit on couch and she starts demanding the remote... .stating the kid is fine... .I said no... .that we needed to talk and check out kid.  She made big deal about me being "ridiculous" again... .and grabbed remote and turned on tv (restarted dvr). 

I'm seriously triggered at this point... .and let her know I didn't want to be there and wanted to go home.

She was dismissive... .claimed they needed suitcases... .I considered grabbing my kid and taking him to dr... .instead... .I had key in my pocket and ran out the door... .no jacket.

Drove away... .

got a few minutes down the road and had to pull over because I was shaking violently and having problems controlling the vehicle.  Called veterans crisis line... .talked for a while.

Called cell phones of people in the house... .couldn't get through or get them to pick up.  Wanted to check on ff kid.

Wife finally called... .I decided I was going to sleep at hotel. 

she claims kid "just has scratch... "  it was no big deal.  that she was ok once she figured that out.

I asked her if I was allowed to check kid out... .she kept saying she didn't "prevent" me from doing it... .maybe semantics... but she didn't help either.

And... .zero of my suggestions or requests for what to be done to care for him were acted on... .all responses were NO.  No dr, no ice (she did for few seconds), no peace and quiet with tv off to look at him,  no to going home...

This all happened about midnight... .

I should have walked out the door... .but then I was faced with leaving kids in house with her yelling.

My PTSD is much better... .but will be lifelong burden... .much of my issue with that surrounds people screaming in a fire  (we all survived... .)

I'm in a pickle... .and I suspect that I will have to have a tight boundary... .she screams... .I leave.

But... .what about the kids... .?

I don't know what went on, but my first concern is about your child.

Do you know the dog? Has the dog had his shots? Rabies is the biggest concern. Was the bite provoked or unprovoked?

This is the difference.

A child is playing with someone's pet dog. This is the beloved family pet who has regular veterinarian visits and all shots. The dog doesn't generally bite, but he's a bit upset by all the comotion at a family event and nips at kid. Otherwise there has been no difference in the dog's behavior or health.

Strange dog that nobody knows much about  bites kid.

In the first case, a doc might be concerned about infection, and would want the kids shots to be up to date- tetanus and such. May watch bite.

In the second case, the same concerns are there, but with the additional concern of rabies which is not treatable and fatal. If there is no way to get info about the dog, then a doc would consider rabies vaccination for the child, which has to be started right away. Child needs the shots before he gets sick, to build his immunity to fight off the rabies germs, since there is no treatment for the illness.

Second thought:

Since you were at a family members house, I will assume that the dog is the pet, he's up to date on shots, and that dog is a bit wigged out by all the people and kids running around. Dogs have boundaries too, and when there are people and kids that dog isn't used to, and they are all over him, dog is going to need some space. Animals usually give some kind of warning- showing teeth, growling a bit, walking away, but a 6 year old isn't usually going to pick up on that. As a last resort dog will nip.

Then the kid is going to howl and scream a lot- not just over the bite but the hurt feelings. Doggie doesn't like him, won't play with him. "I want doggie to be my friend."  ( this is how 6 year olds think)

Now this is how mom's think. Child screaming and crying is triggering. It has to be. This is instinct, survival. Crying unglues mom- for a moment, mom doesn't know what was going on and it might be serious.

So, understandably, your wife could be dysregulated.

I see that it triggered you, but what I am wondering is it OK for your wife to panic over a dog bite? Your kid to scream and howl because doggie hurt him and his feelings? These seem like typical responses. I see where they would trigger PTSD from a combat situation, but these things happen with kids, and moms get upset.

Instead of leaving or making this bigger than it is, could you be a calm presence for your wife when she is upset? From her perspective, it would be frightening to think that if she responds like a mother would to her kids' crying that she'd be abandoned. Perhaps what she needs is someone to say, yes, this is scary, I know it is scary for a mom to hear her child cry, let's handle it together.

FF,

I think you did the right thing in leaving. Have done that a few times myself because I know she will calm down the minute I leave and that is in the best interest of the kids. Sometimes that is what is necessary for them to cool off and for us to cool off, also. Don't have PTSD, but W can push my buttons until I am good and mad.

No yelling or you will leave is a reasonable boundary and probably helps her recover a little quicker when she has lost it.   

I'm curious... .'tho this is more of a digression... .Is being around her FOO is a major stressor for your wife?

That got ugly quick. Your wife got triggered. You got triggered.

You know what sort of PTSD stuff makes you easy to trigger; I'm sure you are trying to reduce this as best you can, but it will be a long process.

I'd look not so much for a tight boundary around your wife's behavior... .as a serious plan contingency for yourself:

When you find yourself triggered in the presence of your family, what can YOU do to get yourself re-regulated? Do you need to step out immediately for 15 minutes?

GK, this is an important issue. Being around my FOO takes a lot of energy for me. I have watched my H get triggered by his family. There's a lot of craziness that I notice, but he doesn't, and so it takes a lot of energy for me to be there as well.

Travelling with kids is also a stressor. I'm out of sorts, H is too. We are staying in a strange place so we aren't in the best situation. The kids' routines are disrupted and they are out of sorts too.

I agree with FF taking care of himself. Is there any way to pre-empt this? FF has a large family. Sometimes staying with relatives is overwhelming for us if there are lots of people there. FF's family + the other family must be a pretty big number.

I know this is expensive, but one way I deal with visiting my mom is to stay in a hotel or an airbnd rental or something like that. Mom likes everything just so, and so a kid playing and maybe moving her stuff is triggering. The kids having to behave the way she wants them to is triggering to me. Plus staying somewhere else gets us out of the emotional swirl for a bit where we can unwind.

You could even arrange this so that the older kids can have a sleepover with their cousins at the family house, while you, your wife and the smaller kids that need more supervision stay somewhere else.

Maybe the family dog expressed it best. They are a good barometer for stress in the house.  "I need my space or I'm gonna bite someone".

 

I've settled in for a long afternoon of hanging out in a hotel room while my family completes visit... .and goes to wedding... .I'll break this up into several posts... .lots of it will be a bit of a ramble... .disjointed... .please keep asking the questions... .and we'll sort out the story.

I suspect there are several triggers here... .and could be several boundaries to set... .or at least several places to hopefully have "safe" "calm" understanding conversations with my wife about... .in or out of MC. 

I will not "do nothing" about last night... .

I also realize there are limits to my power... .I will make a stand on "my side" of the street... .try to do right thing... .

OK... .I'll start answering questions already posted... and then try to fill in some details... .

I agree... .I suspect he is ok.  That was really my concern last night... .I wanted to ensure that he was ok... .or even understand what happened... it happened very fast.  Honestly... .even though I was in same room... .I didn't see it. 

I will ask my wife to verify status of shots.  I know believe the dog(s) (there are several in house) go to the vet... I've heard them talk about it.  But... .this is something that I want to know... .no wiggle room.

I think it was a bite... .it looked like bite.  Wife is now calling it a "scratch"... .she is being very "minimalist" about the entire thing.  Dismissive of my concerns is another way of saying it. 

When I asked how ff kid was... this morning... ."he's fine... .he's playing with everyone else... .this is no big deal... ."  I changed subjects... haven't addressed it since... .  I "heard" dismissive in her voice... .there is history here... .I'm still a bit triggered or hot about this... .but I don't think I'm "hearing things".  Dismissive means... .FF is overreacting... .I'm the reasonable one here.  She actually said last night... .that it was reasonable for her to yell at me... .but my reaction to her yelling was unreasonable... .(not direct quote... .but close... .)


Yes I know the dog... .little toilet scrubber sized thing.  I hate the dog... .long history here that I will elaborate more in future posts... .dog is menace... .  Women think it's the cutest thing ever... .it shi$ts where it wants to ... .women yell at it... .

I'm pretty sure it has had it's shots... .I will verify... .most likely via text... .  My prediction is I will be a$$hole for asking... .oh well... .

Knowing ff kid... .knowing the dog... .the bite was provoked... and not the dogs fault  Again... .I can't prove that... .didn't see that... .but that is where I bet my money.


Agreed!


I believe this to be the case... .


There is history here... .this has happened to me.  I would try to capture dog... .to have it impounded.  Capture being alive preferably... .or dead (so it could be examined).  I believe vets are more comfortable with dogs alive... .waiting out rabies period.  Dog cannot get away... .otherwise you have to assume the worst... .and treat for rabies. 



Agreed that this is most likely the case.  I would rather a doctor make this decision... .my wife has made this decision... .is dismissive of my desire to take ff kid to dr.  There is history here... .with other kids... .where she knows better than doctors... .or backs kids up that believe they know better.  Most of the time she is proven wrong.  No major damage has happened from this yet... .I fear it will.  (More on this later)


Agreed... .I have been in this situation... .with a dog in impound... .and me sweating bullets (so to speak).  Probably part of the trigger of last night.

formflier I just want to say I'm really sorry that this has happened and that you felt so traumatised by the situation. I don't know if you do hugs but I feel compelled to send you some    

I'm glad you are taking it easy and have taken some time away for yourself. Feeling overwhelmed due to your own emotional triggers means that in this situation you would have been no good to anyone. Recognising this is  |iiii

Regrouping and thinking about what to do next to take care of you and then from there move forward is a good strategy for now.

Take care.

FF, I wouldn't take anyone's word for it. People don't always tell the truth about their pets, and they may think they are up to date but don't know for sure. Chances are, if it was a pet, it's fine, but rabies is such that there is no wiggle room.

I was bit a while back by a neighborhood dog. I was pretty sure it wasn't a problem. It was a similar story- family occasion, dog out of sorts.

But I don't mess with this stuff. I asked the owner the name of the veterinarian and she was glad to tell me. Then, I contacted the veterinarians office and they confirmed that the dog was seen there and his shots.

I also called my doctor, who informed me that my tetanus shot was not up to date, and so went by and got that too.

I assume a 6 year old is up to date, but better to check than to be sorry. You need the shot records from both the veterinarian and then you need to ask your child's doc if your child needs anything.

Kids and dogs = bites. Veterinarians and docs are aware of this, and so are willing to provide that information.

I believe this is generally what happened.


This 6 year old is a bit more dramatic than most... .overall really good kid... .but very "expressive" of the good... .and the bad.


Understandable reaction... which I did try to help with... .I tried to be conscious about asking... vice telling.  I can't tell you for sure I always did that last night... .very fast paced. 

For instance... .I asked if she would put ice on it... .vice told her.  This may have been mistake... since I might should have been clearer... that my desire was for someone to hold ice on it for xx minutes... (this also could have been taken as invalidating... .most likely would have... and she would have retorted with... ."so you think I'm an idiot... "  I've heard retorts like that in the past... .and... .one of my wife's go to things... Is that she knows what I and other people think.  I am currently trying to get out of that... .any instance of her bringing that up is challenged for "understanding... ."



No doubt about it... .


I don't think it is ok.  I know it is not helpful.  Goes contrary to all of my naval aviation training.  You panic... you are dead... .keep working the problem.  You have the rest of your life to figure it out... .  is one of our favorite lines on how to deal with an emergent situation.  I am alive and typing today because of this attitude.  This attitude is not going away... .it's kept me alive for over 20 years... .when situations tried to kill me (literally... .I wish this was an exaggeration... .).  All of m Ps and Ts say to just accept this is the way your brain works.

With someone screaming and hollering... .if there is no effective (actionable) communication... .you need to get them to hush... .so you can "work the problem"


Yep... .  And I can see a point of view... .where this is not "fair" to her... .that she has to be careful not to trigger her.

I would hope she can see my point of view... .that I don't want my kids taught through actions... .that the appropriate first step in an emergent situation is to scream and holler (ineffectively).

So... .in this situation... .if she screamed at me to get a towel and ice... .I may have responded better... as that would have made more sense to me (I could have processed it faster).  I still don't understand why screaming about the remote (especially when I almost never have the remote) is actionable or helpful.  If the thought was that it needed to be quieter... I could accept that.  But that argument (when it came from me)... was rejected later... .She had decided the TV was coming back on... and that was it... .I was "ridiculous" for wanting it off. 

Yet... .at the start of the emergency... .she wanted it off?  What the heck?  Huh?


I don't understand the point about her being abandoned?  Was this about me saying I wanted to go home?

I do want to allay her fears... her concerns about a child crying...

The most hurtful thing was that she got her concerns handled... .she maintained physical (hands on) custody of child.  And kept "twisting" the child away from me... .she may claim she was trying to get child in better light so "she could see".

I didn't demand to touch the child or to see directly for myself.  I saw enough to see that there was an injury around the eye... .but eye looked intact and untouched.  I should say injury is on cheek below the eye... .in vicinity of eye.

My only suggestion that was acted on was the ice... .I saw swelling.  I saw one cheek looked bigger than the other.  Later in the evening... .over the phone... .she claimed there had been no swelling.

It wasn't shocking or horrible... .but I saw... what I saw.

Ice stayed on for a few seconds... .her sister starts yammering on about what the kid "really needs"... .is neosporin.  Ice came off... .ointment on.  It appeared to me after that that there was no more ice on cheek... .although I seem to remember my wife holding it in her hand. 

I would have rather ice been held on area for 10 minutes or so... with no breaks.  I didn't assert myself clearly here... .I believe if I had... .I would have been dismissed again.

Right now... .I am still in agreement with this.  That if I had left immediately upon yelling... .last night would have turned out better.

While I have issues to clean up... .medically... verifying shots and such... .had there really been blood spurting I believe had I left... .it would have been handled appropriately.

I am most likely to call ambulance first... .or take to dr first... .

I know that your have training, but a home isn't the army. Maybe I pick up on this since my H comes from a military family that runs like the military. However, it's really invalidating to feelings, and the minute anyone expresses them, the MO is to stomp them out.

My H reacts the same way if I show any distress. Stomp out the feeling.

There's a reason 6 year olds aren't in the armed forces. They feel what they are going to feel, and they are going to howl if they want.

Mom's are wired to get upset when their child cries. This is different from being in the armed forces. It's an instinct.

This is why doctors do not treat their own family. They can be logical and objective when dealing with non relatives, but not their own.

Your child was bit by a dog, your wife got unglued. Don't know what the remote was about, but maybe it was projected feelings.

You did the right thing by protecting yourself. The abandonment part I was referring to is the feeling one gets that expressing feelings isn't allowed.  Your wife's upset triggered you. I can feel this way too. Sometimes when I am upset, I just want my H to hold me, not fix it, not do anything else, but his response can be to rage at it or avoid it or walk away.

Your wife's reaction upset you, but just as you have the right to protect herself, perhaps it isn't fair to expect her to deal with this the way you were trained to do in the military. Maybe she was just feeling what a mom might feel when her kid is screaming, albeit having a hard time managing those feelings.

Yes... .and she was already mad about that.  I'll post more about this in a few minutes.  Quick version... .there is a "quadrangle"  (four women)... .that alternate being in and "out" with each other.  They are all quick to tell you that they are the reasonable one... .and the other ones are "b$tches"... .or the most wonderful reasonable person ever... .depending on in and out status.  Remind one of them that just a few minutes ago... .you felt another way about one of these women... .and doom will come your way


No arguing that... .my election to stick around as long as I did... .was out of concern for kid... .I suspect that I did more harm that good. 

However... .I'm not going to drop this issue... .there are several... .I need to be smart about this... .as I think there are real safety concerns here.  I also have to be cognizant... .that PTSD alters my "danger meter"... .or it can.


Yep... .I've been tested out the yingyang... .if there is a fill in the blank or multiple guess psych test... .I've taken it... .several times.  Wife used to claim that she knew I had this and that... .and it couldn't be PTSD.  (this was before I knew about BPD).  In fact... .one interesting story... .is that my wife had an argument with the MC that finally mentioned BPD to me... .about how to treat PTSD. 

So... .I take meds for PTSD... .to help keep nightmares down... .so help me sleep.  So... on the one hand... .I can see how it could be confusing... .except that my wife has heard this directly from Ps and psychologists before... .I was in the room.

Anyway... .my wife was claiming that I refused to take medications for PTSD... .also said I refused treatment.  Treatment being talk therapy. 

Anyway... .MC (works for VA) types on computer... .and says... .asks... .Is he still taking prazosin?  And she says... .Yes... .but that is for sleep... .not for PTSD. 

MC tries to explain to her that it is one and the same... .but wife was having none of it.  Wife was telling a T (at the VA) that she didn't know what she was talking about when it comes to people with PTSD... .  

I believe it was the next session... .where wife stormed out and the MC told me about BPD... .the rest is history.


Agreed!  Please hold me accountable for being able to clearly express this here... .on this forum... .so I can clearly express it to my wife and anyone else.  I don't want to JADE... .but I do want to be clear... .


My guess is hat if I had taken a walk... .or drive to get some coffee... .that I would have been much better off.

This assumes... .the order of events was... she yells... .I get up and walk out of house. 

That would be... will be... .really tough to do... especially if I don't understand "status" of my kid.

I'm open to other alternatives... .but none come to mind.

I can't repeat what happened last night... .

More later on this... .but... .yes... .the yelling upset me.

The real upset... .was that my concerns were dismissed.

She said the word "ridiculous" several times... .

Several times in evening trying to justify her yelling... .yet tell me my reaction was the problem.

That was what I perceived as the "trigger" that broke the camels back.

Yelling is trigger... .

Dogs misbehaving is trigger...

But the real issue... .IMO... is my wife took care of her concerns and feelings... .and dismissed mine as ridiculous.

I can get to a place in my life... .in fact I am there now... .where I can accept her reactions or getting "spun up".

I will never be ok with her dismissing my feelings as "ridiculous"

Whatever the consequence of me "pushing this issue"... .I will push it.  If that upsets her... .it upsets her... .

I do need to acknowledge that in the effort to protect her feelings... .I was not as clear about what I wanted... .and force... or allow her to be clear about her acceptance or refusal.

For instance... ."please hold ice on the wound for x minutes... .and then let's examine it together... ."

Sigh... .more later... .

|iiii I do think you are on the right track--if you cannot handle her yelling, then make sure you are not exposed to it. That is the one area under your control.

If blood is spurting, you said you would call an ambulance yourself. Good plan--that is an urgent situation, and needs something done immediately.

The question of whether ff kid should see a doc for the dog bite, or ice vs. neosporin? Yes, important, but NOT URGENT.

The urgent need (washing up and calming down the ff kid) was being taken care of by your wife. (along with some gratuitous yelling.)

If ff kid needs to see a doc, it is in a few hours, not a few minutes. Let everybody wind down a bit before discussing that with your wife.


I bet one of your naval aviation lessons was to plan ahead and practice so when a crisis came up, you did the right thing. Do that. Plan how you will handle this sort of home-life crisis now, so you don't have to make up a plan when you are triggered. Executing it properly is tough enough at that time!

You don't have to be ok with it. I wouldn't like it either.

You also cannot stop her from doing it.

And it probably wouldn't be such a trigger for you if she didn't do it to you pretty often.

If you accept that she is about 99.9% likely to do this to you again, you can work on how to respond to it.

A couple hard questions for you:

Why do you take it personally and believe her when she says your concerns are ridiculous?

Why do you expect her to deal with your concerns instead of her own?

Yes... .craziness that I notice... that they don't.  If they are "in" with each other... .they are the best ever... can do no wrong.  If they are "out"... .they pick each other apart... .mercilessly. 

Loud voices and yelling at each other are common... .  It was very uncommon in my family.  Not saying better or worse... .

They seem to "get over" being yelled at fairly quickly.  I tend to be hurt for a while.

There family relationship seems to be... we are in same room staring at a TV together... .

I generally don't like TV... .

This is known issue... .we have agreed to disagree... .but is a common point of tension.

She is fine with having a discussion with me with TV on... laptop on her lap... .and smart phone going... .all at same time.

Claims that she can keep up with it.

I used to try this... .now I refuse to discuss important matters like this.  She doesn't like this... .but seems to be coming to acceptance of it.

Note:  She can't keep up with it.  I will tell her something... .she will repeat back almost the opposite.  Either because of distraction... .or she wants to fight.  My goal in removing distractions... .is to remove the excuse. 

I want to deal with what she actually thinks and says (regardless if i like it)... .I want her to deal with what I actually think and say as well... .  This is getting better... .now that excuses have been removed.





Yep... .generally this is true.  This trip was a bit worse... .because of how their FOO works... .or IMO... fails to work.  Make sure I explain this later... .


This was going to be the first attempt for me to sleep at their house (vice a hotel)... .in well over a year.  Maybe longer.  I brought up the issue and asked my wife... .since several people on her sisters side were not going to be there... .she claimed it was going to be ok.  We would just sleep there.  No openness on her part to hotel. 

Already had had "issues"... .so I was trying to be flexible and accommodating... .          

More on this later... .I'm trying not to miss any points... .


Normally... .we go to their house... .kids stay there... .and my wife and I go to hotel.  Maybe take one or two kids with us... .but usually just us... .so I can get good nights sleep.


Yep... pretty much what we had been doing.  Doubtful if I ever agree to attempt to stay there again... .certainly if there are no changes in "dog procedures".  More on that later.


Especially... .dogs that are untrained little varmits... .but are cute. 

and with women that would rather say "awwww"... ."look how cute"... .and resist any attempt at training or accountability that a dog behave a certain way.

Yeah... .very negative opinion of my wife and her FOO on this issue.  More blanks filled on this later... .

Sigh... .I might be halfway through this story... .how do things get so complicated... .?

FF, I'm going to give you a mom's perspective, you might not like it, but I hope you can see your wife's point of view for just a bit.

I think you're being a bit harsh on her. She's doing the best she can in a chaotic situation. It sounds like there are a bunch of family members, a gazillion kids, and dogs all in one place, a wedding and it's sensory overload at least. Even the dog can't take it.

Stress is the baseline here. Then dog bites kid and kid screams and the stress level gets higher. Mothers are tuned into their childs' cries. This is instinct. At that moment in time, they focus on the child. They don't care about anyone else, least of all the other adults.

That includes your feelings. Sorry, at that moment in time, no mother with a crying child is going to give a rat's tail about the feelings of any adult in the room. It's instinctual. If you were a momma bear you'd get it. I've seen my friends turn into bears if they think their child is upset. I have too. Momma bears are more likely to forgive another momma bear for acting like a bear temporarily, because we've been bears ourselves.

This doesn't mean we don't care about our H's feelings, but in the face of a distressed child, and our own fear that the child is hurt, we can only focus on the child.

You are hurt and angry, and it is understandable, but please consider giving your wife a pass on this one.

Of course you are right... .|iiii

And you can take care of yourself. Once my parents were visiting, and staying with us. My dad just snapped and said he needed to go to a hotel.

I remember that it hurt my feelings. We had a nice guest room, and a comfortable place, but it was about him. He liked to have his own space. He wanted to watch what he wanted, not the cartoons on TV. Maybe my mom was making him nuts too and he couldn't handle her, and the kids and being in a house where he was a guest.

In a hotel with mom, at least it was just mom.

So, you've tried this and it just doesn't work. Now maybe there are ways to visit and have some space to yourself. Maybe even your wife can stay with her family and you take some kids to a hotel. No dogs, less drama. You're miserable there.

Yes, I get the marital bed thing, and staying together, but what's going to happen with a gazillian dogs, relative, kids everywhere. Doesn't sound romantic to me. Yes family might think it is strange if you two don't stay the night together, but so what?

I can deal with my FOO better than my H can, and vice versa.

Excellent questions.

I don't think my concerns were ridiculous... .it was hurtful (not the only trigger)... .but it is hurtful to hear that.  

Hmmm... did I take it personally... .yeah... .there was also a "perception of danger" slice in there... .

In other words... .several trigger issues at same time.

My expectation is that we both get our concerns taken care of.  We are both parents.  we both care about ff kid.  Her concern was not ridiculous.   Sisters desire to have ointment on there was not ridiculous.

Sister also expressed need to remove dog... .do a few other things... .all seemed reasonable.  Wife either said yes and agreed... .or did it.

The only person my wife disagreed with... .(except for brief period of seconds of applying ice I provided)... .was me.  

I don't believe my concerns were unfounded... .I don't believe any of my suggestions were unsafe... .I believe now I should have made them even more strenuously... .or clearly.  So wife can't claim any confusion.  

Or... .I should have left the scene... .and let others clean up the mess.  And tried to deal with it when calmer.

I can see that my actions did not calm the situation.

I can see that my wife's actions did not calm the situation either.


Back to GKs question.  I want to support my wife in getting what she "wants" or feels she "needs" with kids.  I would like her to reciprocate.  This is getting better.  We are not on same page.  

I may not have answered clearly... .

GK... please revisit this... .

I may... .and I do... .want to figure out a way that this incident moves forward in the positive direction.  That is my goal.

There is more to story... .earlier events.

And... .I understand the mamma bear... all to well.  I've had to protect kids from it in past.  I didn't consciously think of that last night... .but I am sure it is there. I'll try to make this quick... .

Last spring... .a motorist honked because the 1 year old was in the road.  I was in house... .wife and I were out of sorts... .so I was staying out of her way.  Wife was in yard... .6 year old, 8 year old and 11 year old were supposed to be "watching" baby... .with wife in yard... .and next thing you know... .honk honk... .baby in road.

Wife drags kids into house an into back bedroom... .I turn on recorder and head to back bedroom.  Wife is screaming... .kids are screaming... .there is a whipping... .the sound of which I have never heard in my life going on.  The sound was horrible... .what I saw when entering the room was even worse. 

Her eyes were wide... .she was taking swings with a belt by raising it as high as it would go... and taking full swats at kids.

I asked her to please stop and lets go talk... .she was saying no baby was in road... .

I stood between her and 8 year old.  I still don't know if I prevented a whipping... .or saved 8 year old from another one.

DSS was called... .big investigation... .we got into family counseling... and ultimately things are much better.

I don't mind at all the mom's perspective... .and she may need a pass on this one.  But... .bears do eat their cubs... .I've seen it... .I stopped it... .and I will do so again if needed.  Regardless of consequence.

To my knowledge there has not been any more corporal punishment in my house since then.  She understands that I will take action to prevent this if it happens.

Very likely she doesn't like this... .very likely it still comes into her mind and clouds it.

 

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=226239.0

for reference

I often wondered if my PTSD skewed what happened that evening... .it most likely did.  I have let several professionals and people I trust listen to the recording.  All were horrified... .those that knew my wife couldn't believe how her voice sounded.

My wife has said as much... .almost word for word.  I don't understand how it applies in this situation... .and in most situations when she makes claims like this.

We don't run our family like the military... .(not by my choice... .but... .by my agreement)  (is that doublespeak... .not sure).  I would like to be more organized... .I think it would give us more family time to be calm and talk to each other.

I actually know a thing or two about how to run a large complex organization... to manage sleep schedules... .eating and cleaning schedules... .wife says it doesn't apply... .has used the word "ridiculous" (it's one of her favorite go to words... ) several times.

The last time this really came to  a head... .was before I knew about BPD.  Wife was complaining (along with stomping around the house... yelling... huffing and puffing... .)  that we didn't have family time around the dinner and breakfast table.

I asked her if I could have the reins for a week or two (this is while we still lived on farm) and work with kids chores and all that.  I told her my goal was to get us 30 minutes together at breakfast table in morning... with chores done... .so we could talk and be a family. 

She happily agreed... .and seemed excited.

Two weeks later I delivered.  I think she had forgotten or stopped paying attention.  I had some notes I showed her... .at the end of breakfast.  I explained how I kept start time of chores the same... .altered who did what a bit... .altered the order of events some... .and did some quality control in the barn.  Chores got done faster and better.

I showed her that we had 30 minutes of breakfast that morning... .and she said she liked it.

Then... .she started telling the kids to do things differently... .accusations... .typical BPD crap.  I responded badly... .made it worse... .  She has held the reins tightly since then ... .yet still complains about them being lazy... .poor results... .and then alternates to them being best kids ever... .high producers... etc etc.

Reality... .production has gone down hill... .grades are worse... .

I've kept quiet on this... .as I think I have other... .more pressing issues to work with. 

But... .there is an "undertone" around the family surrounding these issues... .

Hope this makes sense...

Thanks for the hugs... .!   

Agree with everything you said... .and I suspect this will apply to me in the future... .

I'm about ready to start filling in some backstory... .that probably focused itself last night.

But yeah... .there was a reason I quit staying at the house over a year ago... .bad idea to agree to try it again... .it proved not to work... .yet again.      :light: :light: 

FF... .take a hint!

 

OK... start some backstory... the last week or so.

For some reason... .my wife took to sleeping in other rooms.  That's her right.  She did come up one morning and we had sex... nice cuddle.

I've taken to ignoring this behavior (sleeping in other rooms) when it happens.  Usually turns into classic no win convo.  So... .I proceed on with my life... .in an empty bed.

Before that... .it had been couple weeks since she slept anywhere else. 



Yesterday during day  She came up to our room and started talking about our oldest daughter.  This is the "trigger child"... .wife claims we disagree on her ... .more than others.  Claims she knows what this kid is thinking... .this kid has been focus on last couple MCs. 

Wife claimed that me giving daughter a hug... .was interfering with her parenting.  Wife realized she was projecting... .and reality was other way around... .she was interfering with me comforting my child... .I had no idea about all the other drama.  Literally... .was unaware... .my daughter was crying... .so I gave her a hug.

So... .I'm on my toes.  I used active listen.  I thought it was going great. 

You guys know me... .I'm a metrics guy.  I agreed with 100% of what my wife said  yet she walked out of room... said she would never talk to me again about it... .  HUH?  What the heck?

Wife says  "If ff daughter thinks others are stupider than her... .then that is very concerning to me... ."

ff  "If ff daughter thinks others are stupider than here... .then that is concerning to me as well... .I agree with you wholeheartedly... ."

A couple of sentences later... .she had kind of changed subjects... .she switches to FF daughter... and claims I disagreed.  Huh?  She remained calm... .no hint of dysregulation... .not a hint... .  Got up and walked out of room... .tossing words over her shoulder about "see if I ever talk to you about this again... .I'll never bring her up to you again... .I should have known better... ."  Huh?

Usually she "stomps" out of room... .when this happens... .but all was calm... except for walkout and odd words.

I let it go for 20 minutes or so and went downstairs to find her.  I asked her if she had time to talk... .(of course... no direct response... )... .about what she asks... . 

I told her I didn't understand why she walked out and wouldn't talk to me about ff daughter.  She claimed I was pointing out to her that she didn't know what ff daughter thought? Huh?... .and I was being disagreeable   Huh?

I would describe her  as irritated.

Anyway... .I briefly summarized what I thought we talked about... .and my agreement.  She seemed confused... .genuinely so.   

She kept trying to change subject... .talked to kids that came into room.  I indicated concern... .and that I wanted to find time later to discuss this properly so I could understand.

We left it at that.  No real effort or time was available later to discuss it.   I didn't want to discuss in van ride over in front of kids.

This was the morning before the dog bite (yesterday morning)

 

More backstory... why my wife was already mad... before the bite.

We get over to the new city at 7pm.  Exactly when we had told them (or so I thought) we would be there.  I had even heard my wife on phone with them... confirming we would see them in 2 hours... .at 7pm... .and that we were driving away.  OK... see you then.

Nothing about what I heard was confusing... .I was actually proud of my wife for coordinating a trip so well. 

So... .we pull up to dark house at 7pm.  We all pile out of van... .and are standing on porch... .knocking... .ringing bell... .silence.

Kids are doing peepee dance... .so... .we hustle them back into van... .and off we go to find a mcDs or something.  As we are getting in van... .wife lets loose... painting her sister black... cursing... .kids are all listening.  She explained to everyone that her sister is "punishing us"... .that my wife "knows how this works... "... .it went on for a while... .was horrible to listen to.

Wife calls and gets her sister... .her sister is going to be at her studio for a while... ."everyone" is with her.  Note: Wife had claimed they were out doing something else... .(I suspect this is invalidation number 1).  Wife was proven wrong. 

Like nothing... .the black painting switched... .and sister was still horrible... .but for different... .new reasons... based on phone call.

I'm confused as all get out... .

Potty... .wal mart... .go to sams club and get hot dogs and pizza for everyone ... .

I'm trying to figure out if we need to go to movie... .or do a family event (just us) in a strange city.  I need information... .I ask my wife some questions... .defensiveness through the roof.  I end up figuring out that she talked to the youngest cousin... .and not the actual sister.  We made family plans based on an assumption that a 10 year old would properly pass messages to an adult.  Actual adults hadn't spoken to each other about the trip in days.  What the heck? 

I was a$$hole for asking... .and my wife berated me in front of the kids saying... ."we can all be mad about this... or we can figure out what to do... ."

I remained calm and asked my wife who was mad?  She said... .you are!  Clearly you are... .What the heck?  I said I didn't understand how that was so... .and I would be happy to describe my emotions to her... .if she would like... .but that my goal was to keep our kids occupied... .and figure out if the trip is really going to happen.

Silence... .

I asked her if she was mad... .  Shockingly... .and a good sign... .she clearly said "yes... .and I think it is perfectly fine that I am mad... "

I said... ."I don't blame you for being mad... .it is perfectly understandable... ."

Subject dropped... .as phone call came in... .and... .from what I could hear... .wife was questioned about why they weren't at house.  Why she didn't just come on in.  "Because the door is locked... .it's not our house... .we don't have a key... ."  Some snippy exchanges... .and we drive to there house.

Sadly... .there is one more "backstory" to add... maybe two... .sigh.

Back in a bit... .


I kept my mouth shut. 

 

Is this story getting long... .or what... ?

So... .i'll give the final backstory of the night... .and then tie that in to dogs in general.

So... .we show up and get in house.  Dogs start barking... .there are two in house... and one outside. 

Big muscular dog is in house... .dog is freaked out.  Sister is yelling at her kid about what the kid needs to do to get the dog to go out.  My wife starts yelling instructions at sister.

Yelling is this case... .was about half volume... .of later in the night. 

Dog gets more freaked out...   My wife yells at kids to get away from dog... .kids... .of course... .don't listen.  Wife yells louder.

Sister reaches for dog and dog makes big... .obvious snap at her hand.  Everyone gasped.  Wife yells at sister... .that dog just snapped at her... .sister (in same tone my wife uses on me... .) is very dismissive... .he was snapping at food... .she just does that... it's no big deal.  JADE JADE JADE... .  The vet thinks the dog is retarded... .how stupid is this... .dog is like 70 years old in dog years...

Back door gets opened... .another dog runs in... .this dog finally gets out the door.  Wife starts getting onboard with sisters story about the dog. 

I saw it... .dog was clearly displaying threatening behavior to the owner... .the dog was in charge.  Had the hand not been moved... .multiple stitches would have been needed. 

I considered trying to end or modify the visit right there.  Kind of gave my wife a look... .tried to talk to her... .got shut down quick.  I decided to keep my mouth shut... .      

About 3 hours later... .the little tiny "teacup" sized dog... .did whatever she did to 6 year old.

Like a bad infomercial... ."but wait... there's more"

Last spring... .before the spanking incident... .came one of several "dog incidents."  The two dogs that lived in our house... .on the farm... .were not trained very well... despite promises and deals that wife and kids would do it. 

There were some efforts... .but ineffectual.  My complaints of dealbreaking were dismissed.

We moved off farm.  Dogs were kept at my parents house who had fenced yard.  Dogs were issue over there... .but that was best solution until proper training could be done.

One day... one dog got sick... .and I suggested that we bring them over to house... .just that one dog... .for a couple days of monitoring.  The dog was elderly... .and we agreed would not last another year.  Part of the monitoring was to determine if it was time to put dog down.

I go to work... .wife and daughter (oldest... same one my wife and I "disagree over" cooked up a plan to bring both dogs over.  I show up home... and notice as I walk up that the inside of one of our cars is a wreck... hair everywhere... .stuff torn up inside.    I walk in house and both dogs are there. 

I ask what happened... wife explains that she and daughter changed deal... .I express that I am not ok with it... .and that the situation is dangerous.  The dismissive voice shows up... .it's not a big deal.  What about the car being torn up... "it's not a big deal... .she tells me I need to calm down (note... I'm calm... .but asking questions)... .and being crystal clear that what they have done is dangerous.

I made some attempts to remove a dog back to my parents... .and a 911 call ensued.  No action taken... my wife called in to report me for removing the dog.  Very unwisely... .very very very... .unwisely... .I backed down upon promises to train dog and keep dog in crate.

A couple days later... .in the bedroom next to the one where the whipping happened... .a dog fight broke out.  Both dogs were out of kennel (I don't know how)... .dogs sound like they are killing each other... .kids are screaming.  Worse is I hear one of my kids saying that a dog "has" FF daughter (3rd youngest)... .3 years old at the time.  I am running through the house to get to them... .

I separate dogs... luckily it appears that the dogs were fighting each other... .and kid got in middle.  She was not the target... .but was bit and scratched anyway.  Blood... .but not to point of stitches.

Wife is shaking... .kids are shaking... .dogs get kenneled.  Wife starts trying to defend dog... .it was obvious who the aggressor was. 

I simply said... .you know that is not going to work.  Our path is clear... .we have no choice.  I don't remember if it was same day... .or next day.  That I managed to get my wife in front of the vet... .who is also a family friend.  He was stern... equivocal... .resolute... .that the dog must be put down.

He told a story about his dad... .who was also a vet... .that put down a beloved family pet after a similar incident.

Over and over the vet repeated... .they are animals... .your daughter is a human... .do not get that confused.  That animal could have killed your daughter.  My wife finally agreed to put the dog down.  It was sad. 

My point to this story... .and these stories... is that there is a long history (which I will not repeat in the future) of dangerous "decision making" around dogs... with my wife... .and apparently now her sister.

My wife beat me up repeatedly that I agreed to get the dog (s)... .so I couldn't change my mind.  I have been clear that the deal was "broken"... .and I have also been clear that I give no further consent to bringing in future dogs... .

I've also been clear that the current dog that is at our house... .but now lives outdoors... .has no second chances.  Any child that gets hurt... .will result in the dog being gone (dead).  I won't ask her... .I won't wait... .there will be no understanding of "why" the dog did anything.  She doesn't agree with this... .but heard it loud and clear.

She doesn't like this... .but also realizes that she is the "odd woman out"... .as she has asked other vets and "dog people" and found no support for her position.

I suspect she realizes that it is unlikely we ever get a dog again... .assuming this one lives to a happy old age and passes away.

How is that for a crappy situation... .and backstory... .to what happened last night... ?

I'm worn out typing it... .I'm sure you guys are tired of reading it.

It just sounds like a recipe for disaster- a lot of people and dogs all in one house, the family is chaotic. At least some of them have issues with emotional regulation. Dogs are barking, people are yelling, the dogs are out of control, you have PTSD- which is triggered by loud yelling,but even if you didn't- the stress of all those people and dogs would be hard to take for anyone.

I wouldn't be able to tell whose fault this was or who should have done what. It sounds like so many factors all at once each affecting each other. Maybe it's better to just chalk this up to a lesson on what not to do next time.

I know that I can't stay with my mom 24/7 without triggering her. It's just what it is. If I stay somewhere else we get along better. My H's family is hard to take sometimes too. Sometimes I need to just go get coffee somewhere and chill. Sometimes we stay in a hotel to get some space. Now you know not to show up with hungry kids who need to go potty. Maybe a stop at chuck e cheese where they can jump around before facing family will let them wind down after a trip. These are just ideas- you know your family. Seems to me that everyone was on emotional overload - including the dog.

You WANT her to be reasonable, and deal with your concerns. I get that. I even get that you have very good reasons for your concerns, and that you have good reasons to want her to care.

... .

You wrote background to the background to the background already. I'm a little busy, TL:)R and I apologize for that. But even scanning it, you are making the case for me here.

Your wife was stressed on this visit and primed for dysregulation. She had lots of old triggers to be sensitive about. Looking back at it, you *KNOW* there was a lot of crap going on that would keep her from operating at her best. Keep her from operating the way you WANT her to.

Once she starts yelling, you should know by now that she does a really bad job of either listening to you or honoring  your concerns at that point.

Given that you KNOW all this stuff... .why on earth would you expect her to give a rats ass about your concerns at a time like that? I sure wouldn't expect her to!

And recognizing that she is in this sort of mental/emotional state at the time, what are your best tools (the ones here, not the ones from naval aviator school) to address this sort of situation?

Cor blimey ff as we say here in the UK that's some back story. It makes sense now that there was a whole pile of antecedents that led up to 'the main event.' When I first read it it didn't make sense that it just seemed to come out of nowhere.

Ff are you able to just take some time out to sit with how you are feeling about all of this rather than rushing to sort it all out straight away. Maybe give yourself a little bit of space to let things lie just for a bit. I appreciate you're a go to sorting out kind of guy, but I can't help but hear reading between the lines that this has been painful and confusing for you. It sounds really upsetting to me.

I wonder if breaking it down in to small prioritised chunks would help you catch your breathe for a bit.

Yep... .that is my plan.  I took van over to sisters house today... wife drove me back and dropped me off.  We got a sandwhich on way back.  Not much talking.  Barely acknowledged it was nice day out... .it really is.

My current plan... is to not discuss this until Monday morning... .when vet is open... and doctor open at normal time.

I will ask that we see confirmation of rabies shot... .and I need to confirm up to date tetanus and other shots (maybe) on my sons end.

I have no idea about the vet... .or I would do this myself.  But... .I don't see any way to do this without involving my wife and my sister.

I won't start... if I'm not calm.  I need to be prepared for what I will do if they declare me ridiculous and refuse to participate. 

Right now... .I feel relaxed... .hanging out in hotel room... .typing away... .

Agreed... .I saw the red flags... .and grudgingly ignored them and went along with my wifes plan... .if I am honest with myself... .I did this because I did not want to further upset the situation...   I should have exposed myself to this smaller potential upset earlier... .and I most likely would have been in a hotel room... .when/if all of this went down.


Yep... .I totally agree.


I can guarantee you that it's my "fault" for being in that house... .as in it was my decision.  And I can control doing that differently in the future. 


I would like to get to the point... .where this is part of the planning process... .that we openly talk about how we can do this without emotional overload.  This discussion has been started in MC... .and I plan to continue it.

Yelling is almost always bad... .how can we do and plan things so we don't yell. 

I'm also not being accepting of any arguments that someone else is responsible for another person yelling... .my wife claims this often... .very frustrating. 

I am trying to be clear with myself that my reactions last night... .were mine... .and I am responsible for managing those... .

Other people should work on their stuff... .but that's not up to me... .

Yeah... .I see the point... .and I would follow that line of thinking even more if she had blown off her sister as well.  As in... .if she was protecting ff kid from the world... .and everyone is wrong... .I suspect I could deal with that better.

I don't know how I can express the obviousness of how she followed her sisters urging... .and ignored mine.  I suspect in her min... .it was her and he sister "against" me.


validate and not "corner" her... .would be my quick answer. 

Tough to do... .because my brain is just not wired that way... .you always... always... .always... .figure out if there is a life safety issue going on first... .and then address more minor concerns in some sort of order.

As I really didn't know what was going on for a while... .and it came out of nowhere... .I dunno... .I just don't know.

I do try to change the wiring... .but this has been "common" issue.  Where my priorities with what I perceive as life safety issues... .or my time spent assessing a situation... .are seen as invalidating or uncaring to her. 

Long list of counselors and others have told us both... .that expecting my thinking to change in those moments... .is not going to happen.  Basically... .when fight or flight shows up. 

Naval aviators have a corollary... .aviate... .navigate... .communicate.    If you "come to"... .and you don't know what is going on... .first... .make sure you are flying... .because if you aren't flying... .you are most likely going to quickly die. 

Then... .worry about where you are... .

Then... .worry about talking to people... .

I suppose my new wiring would be... ."worry about my wife's emotional state... ."... .then... proceed from there.   Naaah... .very little chance I can deprogram that... .or would want to.

I have intimate knowledge of situations where people where hysterical... .emotional... and ended up dead... .because they focused on emotions and that response... .rather than a more appropriate response to work the problem... .and try to stay alive.  I just don't see that changing in me.

I like being alive... .I am alive because of the way I think... .if my r/s ends because of the way I think... .I'm still alive... .

I know other people think differently... .that's ok... .

I'm not saying you should change this principle--there is a lot of value to it, and it has served you well. And it is embedded deeply in who you are.

I think you would do well to make a few adjustments:

1. Accept that your wife does not have this training, and does not respond to situations this way. And getting her to do that is probably harder than getting you not to.  :)

That may mean she is an obstacle, in which case she is one you have to navigate around, instead of crashing into. (That puts dealing with her in step two, not step three, right?)

2. Tone down your definition of life safety issues with your children a bit, because some things you got really upset about were definitely not time-critical--as in nothing that couldn't wait for 30 minutes of allowing everybody to calm down followed by 10 minutes of discussion.

The incident where you got CPS involved WAS that kind of issue, and I commend your judgement and bravery getting into the middle of that one.

The medical stuff... .Honestly, I think your wife manages it "well enough." You might do something a bit better; You certainly would do it differently some times. But think about it... .you were a naval aviator, and she spent a lot of time raising kids while you were deployed, I'm betting. All your children survived, and I'm sure there were medical issues that came up at those times.

It may not be worth the fight over it.

Yep... .but... .there is usually a but. 

My wife... and lots of pwBPd... .tend to freak out first... .followed by evaluation... .followed by figuring out that it is no big deal and calm down. 

I like to get the facts... .figure out if freaking out is needed... .and then decide to freak out or not.  There at times when freaking out... .is appropriate... .

So... .in that light... .you are correct... .she is an obstacle... .because I can't figure out how big a deal life safety is... .without an evaluation.

Granted... .some things were obvious in this situation... .he is crying... .so airway and all that is good.  With her twisting him all around... .it was hard to get good look at area around eye.

Yeah... .I do have to try to determine... .in my own mind... .how I will handle issues like this in a future.  Deer in the headlights while being screamed at... .doesn't work... .

I need to either... just walk out... .

have a preplanned phrase that I can say... .and just keep repeating... .  "I understand you are upset... please lower your voice... ."

Also... need to more clearly define in my mind... .or run through "what ifs"... about when I will act or call authorities.

So... .what if... .it looked serious... .and she wouldn't let go... .

Me trying to wrestle kid from her... .and physically carry kid to hospital... .doesn't seem like good idea.  I suppose calling 911... and letting professionals sort it out...

I always figured... .that I would figure it out.  So... I don't want to role play too much... .

Sigh... .

Yes, she was an obstacle to YOU giving your kid appropriate care at the time.

However, it sounds like she was giving your kid good enough care. The bite got cleaned. Honestly, while ice for 15 minutes might have been better, it wasn't a big deal. The neosporin was reasonable. The kid was being comforted. (Or at least comforted more than he would be if you and your wife were fighting over how to care for him!)

I'm suggesting that you give her credit for being reasonable on medical stuff--that she's ~80% right. And that the ~20% where you disagree isn't urgent/timely, even if it is important at all.

If it was an issue where you would call  911 or drive straight to the hospital... .do you believe your wife would come to the same conclusion?

I'm thinking that she is trustworthy as a medical first responder in the family... .as in if there is a medical problem, and a kid goes to mom, she will handle it 80% right. And the 20% can be sorted out later, and you will still have all your kids whole and healthy when all is done.

 

Well... .ended up having a pretty good day in the hotel room.

The original plan was for wife to go to wedding and come get me and we would go home.  She has van.

We talked after the wedding... .we both agreed that kids would enjoy staying another night.  I was clear... .and she agreed... that I was staying here another night... .but wanted to her to stay with me this night at hotel.  We would get up early and go in the morning and still stick with schedule for tomorrow. 

So... at 730... .it was agreed that she would stay "a couple" more hours... .and then come spend time with me here at hotel.  Just me an her. 

I had a few more things that I could be productive on... .

Phone call was calm... .positive... .no wiggle room... .

No contact since then... .I've attempted to contact them... .I'm tired... and want to go to bed.

I believe it has been a week since she has slept in same bed with me... .

I'm tired... .as I examine my feelings this evening... .I am worried about my kids... .I feel apathy... .emptiness... .towards my wife. 

There is no doubt that the level of conflict has reduced... .dramatically... .

If I focus on her actions... .probably not a good thing... .

When given the choice between me... and her foo... .she decides for her foo.  It has been a long time since "all" in her foo were against her... and she against them.  Those are only times... .when I can see that she was clearly choosing me... .by her actions.

Sigh... .so... I'll use the tools... .I won't "bite" on her provocation to agree to come be with me... .and no show... .

Once again... .she got what she asked for... .I don't get my end of the deal.

On another post... .I indicated that if it matters to me... .I make the deal... .so that I get "mine" first.

Or... .I realize that I will have a talking/complaining point for MC... .


Sigh... .in a city I don't want to be in... .no access to car... .nobody answering phone... .

Not going to put myself in this situation again... .

Hi formflier, wow, there has been a lot going on.  How are you feeling this morning?


 

I'm sorry if I missed something here, I can't find info about the actual wedding, the main reason for this visit. Were you planning on attending before the dog scuffle?  

It might not hold any relevance, guess maybe I'm just curious how the decision of you not attending came about...

It is natural that you are disappointed, and there is more going on here than just this incident, since she has not slept in your bed for a while. Your request for her to spend the night with you isn't ambigious. However, there are so many moving parts in this event- kids, dogs, relatives, a wedding, that just about anything could happen. Add some dysfunctional relatives in the mix ( every family has them) and to be honest, it just seems like a bad time to request some alone time with your wife.

These things are an inevitable set up. Visiting family/friends is an inevitable melt down for us. I can't think of a single incident where my H has not dysregulated. You name it: visiting parents, friends, weddings, vacations. There is something about long drives, noisy kids, staying with other people, that leads to miscomunication. One of the biggest triggers is if it is something for me: my side of the family or friends, because in these situations, I am very happy and excited to see people I have not seen in a long time, and he gets jealous of that attention. He can not seem to process that if I saw those people every day, I would not be that excited every day, but not seeing someone for years is a joyful reunion. He sees that as me liking them more than I like him.


Another trigger for him in these situations is that he's not so excited to see my family or friends, but goes along with it because we are family, and he also expects me to do this for him. I do this too, but naturally, I am not as close to his family as he is, so I don't have the same sense of comfort, but I do go, I am pleasant, and nice to them. He picks up on that too, and this can lead to a rage.

Fatigue is a factor. He drives- won't share it- a man thing? So he is grumpy and resentful for driving. He also loads the car and makes note of that. What he doesn't notice is that I've packed up all the kids' stuff, food, toys, snacks, medicine, and my own stuff, and have been taking care of their needs the whole time, breaking up squables, feeding, changing, toys, tapes, videos, and I'm just as tired too.

Something that affects us both, that it is hard to be aware of, is that we revert back to our positions in the family drama and we are both the triggers, and the being triggered, of all the craziness in our FOO. It takes a lot of energy for me to deal with my mom, and I try to have a pleasant time. Our visits are a change in her routine and she gets triggered. So during these times, I am not so attentive to my H and this triggers him. In his home, he gets put in his FOO drama, which is irritating to him.

Then there is the imagination. There have been times when I went to see family or friends, got caught up in the moment and lost track of time, or there was traffic, or something happened, and his imagination runs wild that I was ignoring his needs, snubbing his family, or had run off with some man.

So, while I see your point of view, there are other possible scenarios. First, I have no idea how many people are in the house where you are, but there are 10 of you, a bunch of dogs, and kids. For your host family- this is a stressor. I love having guests, but it is a disruption, the kids are wound up, I clean up the house and then it is a mess again, meals are larger, more noise, more chaos. I love it, and it is exhausting. Your hosts are exhausted, and everyone has come home from a wedding- the kids are probably wound up, adults worn out.

Now, is your wife is going to ask them to watch 8 additional wound up kids so she can leave and spend the night with you?

Or, is she going to help get the kids in bed and spend some quiet time with the hosts, help them clean up, or are they all going to collapse to sleep? Or, is she really happy to see her sister and wants to spend time with her before you all leave?

Or consider another scenario: Something happened between the two of you, and the whole family knows it. It's pretty obvious that you went to a hotel. What if, after all the kids went to bed, sister offered your wife a bit of emotional suport?- and wife cried on her shoulder for a while. Maybe she needed that. Going to see you would mean facing the issue again, at night, when she was tired. Yes, she could have called you to say she wasn't coming, but it might have been really late, or she couldn't face it.

Understandable to feel this way.

Seems to be the pattern of a SO with BPD to do things that drive the NON away, then accuse the NON of being cold, distant, and apathetic. Of course we are; it is our only means of defense.

Your advise has help lots of us on this forum, and I am sure I am not alone in saying my prayers are with you today.

I agree, Cole, FF's advice is invaluable. We nons are the ones to wonder and think since we don't project this stuff onto others.

However, some situations can be so complex that there isn't a singular answer and it may help to see it as a situation that is a set up in a sense. Also, for me, one way of thinking about something is to consider other points of view, so as much as I wish for validation of my point of view, reading others helps me understand too. This is why I try to present other ideas as well.

My T warns us about the acronym HALT- hungry, angry, lonely, tired so we know that whenever we are feeling this way, we are not likely to be in a good place to help or consider anyone else. The arrangements for this wedding- long car trip, tired adults and kids, angry people, and more, just seems like one of those times where nobody is really emotionally available to anyone else. This would be especially so for someone with a PD.

The way I have started to look at these things is not to avoid seeing family and friends, but to recognize the potential for a storm, and try to think of ways to take care of myself so that I am not in HALT as much and can handle what happens better. We've done this enough times for me to know what the trigger points are, but even then, they are not necessarily avoidable. So what can I do- go get coffee by myself, see some family on my own without my H, not stay with family, and so on so that I can be in a better position to handle what may or may not happen.

Hang in the FF... .    Just remember to breath, and pause before saying anything. Take that split second for you first.   

You know what you need to do.

prayers for you and yours,

c.

 

We are all back home. 

The eye bite or scratch... .whatever it is... .looks worse that it probably is. 

Ride home was fine... .did some stuff at family house in town where we lived.  Played Monopoly.  It went fine as well.

I was making big effort to "just be normal"

Well... .we get home... .get little kids to bed.  Wife says she will be up to sleep with me.  However... .she stays in room with little kids for a while. 

I'm about to go to sleep... .so I open the door to the room where she is... .and little kids are asleep.  she indicates she will be right up.

I get in bed and go to sleep.  Wake up... .still alone this morning. 

I think it has been over a week know... .since she has spent the night in our room.  I'm going to find time today to ask her... .in an even... .non accusatory manner... .what is up.

Or... maybe I'll just say I miss her and would really appreciate it if she would sleep in our room again. 

Also today need to check on status of shots for dog and ff kid.

Sigh... .it's almost 9am... .to my knowledge nobody has stirred in the kids room.  I assume she is in there. 

Planning my day... .I've got an interview later today (job search is ongoing)... .wife and I had planned on doing some of the prep together (she is a good helper for that... .). 

I suppose I'm going to figure it out myself

Sorry you are in this situation, FF. It just seems to me that there is a lot going on. Not sure what.

Actions speak louder than words. No matter what she says, she isn't sleeping in your room, for whatever that is. There is no telling why. She also has to know that you want her to- you've asked her. Whatever it is, I believe you would want to know that she is coming to bed with you because she chooses to. I don't know how making any case to her about it would not backfire.

It seems to me to be like the ST, or avoiding the issue. I know that if my H has decided he's not going to speak to me about something, it's not going to happen until, or if (maybe never) he chooses to and nothing I do or say is going to change anything.

 

Yeah... .I've considered ignoring it... .and I won't say anything unless I am sure that I can be even... .and gentle... .and clear.

Most like it won't be a question... .

Just state that I was disappointed she did not come up... .I miss her... .and would like to sleep in same bed with her... .

Unless she wants to say more... .I'll drop it there... .

We'll see... .

She emerged from room.  Looked at me on couch... .working laptop... .I waved and said hey... .she didn't speak.  Went upstairs.

Looks like the ST. You know how that one goes.

My mom does this too. If she's angry, she'll cut us all off. Now this hurt a lot when we were kids, and it has been hurtful when my H does it.

I know it is easier said then done, and I don't live with my mom, but when she's in this state, she gets out of it on her own time.

With my H, it's much harder, since he's in the house, and I just can't walk away with the kids around. Sometimes it's eerie. We can all be in the same room and he'll talk to the kids while pretending I'm not there.

I just have to constantly remind myself that this is his choice. I used to try to come after him, pleading him to speak to me, apologizing, basically cowering, but that didn't work. Nothing does. I just have to ignore it.

I've gotten pretty feisty when she does this... .

Not outwardly... .but I make a point of saying something directly to her that needs a response... .when she ignores... .I ask her in front of kids why there his no response... .

It's been a while since she has done this... .I am thinking because I made it uncomfortable to try

Hang in there ff.  |iiii

I'm still very new to all of this but the more I read from everyone the more I realize that most of us are the same people dealing with a lot of similar struggles. It helps hearing how others have dealt with and are currently dealing with all of this. If it helps you feel better, I was able to use SET to calm down a situation with my wife. Granted there were no dog bites or relatives to add gasoline to the situation.

I understand some of your military reactions, my brain function that way also. Step 1: assess the situation, you can't help anyone else if your injured trying to act. Step 2: check your pulse before anyone else's. Step 3: act... .or now it's more of don't react... .And for watch your language, use proper adjectives.  :)

 

Yep... .yesterday evening... .we ended by watching TV together on couch... .nice time... .chat about nothing in particular.

I ask if she is coming up... .that I'm going to get a shower and go to bed... .she is pleasant and says she will be right up.

You guessed it... .no show.

This morning seemed fine moving around the house... .getting things going.  Sigh

She'll come to bed when she darn well feels like it.

In the meantime, just assume she isn't coming to bed with you. Bring a bag of potato chips to bed and eat them, chill, bring a good book, snore, sleep in the middle of the bed, take up all the room, pull all the covers on top of you, settle in to sleeping alone.

She'll be back just about the time you've made yourself comfortable sleeping alone.

This sounds like a metaphor for my entire relationship.  lol lol lol And I really like the potato chips bit.

*mod*



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